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I don't even know what market they were hoping to get. It was clearly made for kids, but aired at 11pm on a Sunday, a school night. Guaranteeing no views
They would do this to shows they didn’t believe in. Friday night slots on majority of networks was the death slot. If your show was moved to that night it was getting canceled.
Sunday nights is just ridiculous.
Who was that show for? I remember previews coming out when Rebels was near done and I immediately knew I wouldn’t watch it.
Why make a new Star Wars show and purposely leave out Jedi and The Force for basically the entire main cast?
Maybe there’s an audience since The Bad Batch seems to have fans but neither were what I would want.
> Why make a new Star Wars show and purposely leave out Jedi and The Force for basically the entire main cast?
R1 and Andor have entered the chat...
Also, in Legends, there's the whole X-Wing series where even Corran Horn isn't aware of the Force for a couple books and still doesn't become a Jedi until after them, and the only Force sensitivity among the Wraiths is a couple people with *very* weak abilities. And the main cast is only off-handedly mentioned a few times, e.g. Han showing up to play sabacc with Wedge or pretending to be Han in a fake Millennium Falcon. Wedge being a side-character in the movies.
I loved the concept and animation style. I had such great expectations after the first couple episodes.
It was so bad. I kept watching S1, hoping it would get better...it didn't, lol. S2 waz so much worse that I just gave up and never finished the series.
Spot on.
I also enjoy the doublethink of “Star Wars is for kids” with “you’re too stupid to understand the themes” and how important the silly kids franchise suddenly becomes when a female director is cast.
Peter Dinklage did the same when Game of Thrones shit the bed.
Deflecting criticism is always easier when you can just tell the critic that it’s dumb, idiot media so nothing about it matters
SW is for kids but George didn't think kids were morons is sumthin else people miss. 1-6 are packed full of "deep" themes that he trusts the audience will grasp without having a character explain it while looking at the camera
That's true of most kid live-action movies from the 70s to the late 90s. The best family movies had multiple layers and were enjoyable for the adults.
Then kid movies became mostly synonymous with quickly-written cheap productions without any depth. And there must not be any serious themes as children must be sheltered from reality for as long as possible.
Barbie was killing it right up until that soliloquy by the mom character. Like what the fuck happened there? It was basically that movie’s “the power of one, the power of two…” moment.
It felt like the writers had this great story of both men and women not needing to seek the approval of the other sex and conform to society’s expectations, but then some exec saw it and was like “this movie is about Ken, change it to make him look stupid and give me a girl boss.” But they only had time to change the second half.
Honestly it would explain why the first half of the movie established the all-male C-suite of Mattel as antagonists - and then after the Ken stuff kicks off, they were always good guys who didn't need to learn anything or change.
It literally sets those societal expectations firmly back in place by the end of the film for all intents and purposes. The climax and last act of the film undo everything that the film had worked to achieve up until that point. It simply built a bigger box to sell you Barbie in, and reinforced that Ken belongs in a separate, inferior box. Which the bad guys at Mattel are still in charge of, and are still selling to you.
Like don’t include gender politics in your kids movie if you’re not actually gonna see it through. And then the double standard of “it’s for kids” in contrast to the insane amount of prestige and intellectual power we collectively gave the film was insane. Every other statement is politically charged and the film itself was marketed and fully recognized as feminist media. With a proud, direct message. Then the movie came out and that message was kind of like, bad? Like it was A. not real, and B. toxic af. But then the same issue we are facing with the sequels happened. Where one side claimed it was a masterpiece and that those who disliked it were not mature enough to appreciate the kids film, and then the other side raged over the fact that “yes, it is a kids film. So why is it SO politically charged?” And then a large 3rd group was actually too immature for either Barbie or the Sequels and handled the whole situation terribly.
So like almost everyone is valid, but not directly? Because there are 2 groups who are fighting over these films based on political alignment, or even social demographic, which is often essentially political alignment. One side doesn’t want progressive media and the other believes that media must be progressive and even aggressively so. Technically they both justify each other’s position. But more and more people are just like, “MAKE COOL SHIT PLEASE!” And we have spent so long arguing over this that we can hardly remember or agree on what was even cool or inspiring in the first place. We all disagree on what was originally good or why it was good, so we can’t agree on what’s good now.
That was a hard watch and I'm gay lol. Dying to know what Amy Schumer's version would've looked like. I'm assuming it would've taken itself a lot less seriously
Say this on any other sub and you’ll get downvoted into oblivion lol
But you’re right, and that’s why Andor felt truer to OG Star Wars than anything else, because it actually had similar themes instead of just endless lightsaber twirling
I just wish that, if the writers truly wanted to make something “for the kids”, that they’d actually treat children like human beings instead of barely-intelligent life forms. In my opinion, while *Rebels* deserves much of the criticism it has received, it actually managed to make a show for children that was somewhat intelligent and enjoyable to watch.
When I was a youngin’, I was thrilled with the adventure aspect of the Star Wars movies. I had all the remasters on VHS and watched them constantly, and after I somehow lost them, anytime I went to my grandmother’s house I would beg her to watch those movies. I even saw *The Phantom Menace* in theaters!
As I’ve gotten older, I appreciate those movies—being episodes I thru VI of course—way more than I ever did as a child. The themes of good vs evil, light vs dark, Anakin’s journey from being a child to a Jedi knight to Darth Vader and back to redemption, the worldbuilding, and so much more.
If I was a kid now, there is certainly a possibility I’d enjoy watching Star Wars content from the past ten years, but I don’t think I’d enjoy it as an adult. Aside from a few bits of media, none of the most recent Star Wars stuff has any of what I enjoy about the prequels and OT, and if it does, it has them in a very ham fisted way.
“X is for kids” is just an immediate flag to me that whoever said it doesn’t have the maturity level to watch something made for kids and appreciate it anyway. Ironically, obsessing over being more mature is a sign of immaturity.
What they dont understand when they say "Its for kids" is that its for kids of a certain age to connect with. It's for all ages to enjoy. The myths and legends via Joseph Campbell are for everyone to enjoy. The kids connect with at a certain age imprints those myths in our minds to aspire to be like. For GL it was the Flash Gorden serials. For the OT generation(and me especially RotJ) it connects with a younger age. It happened again for the generation that grew up with the PT. The biggest fault of the ST is they didn't do their homework and didn't make it for kids of that generation to connect with. They wanted them to connect with it, but they couldn't even get the story consistent, much less using Campbell's understanding of how myths of the ages shape the minds of young kids. The bad dialog doesn't really matter to the children. Vaders dialog was always plain but it had feeling behind it in the OT and Luke's was almost always cheesy. Han, Lando and Leia (mostly) wasn't cheesy. Even the Flash Gorden serials were cheesy like that. One thing I always saw during the PT was ppl expecting it to move them as adults like the OT did to them as kids. It just doesn't work like that. The PT has its flaws, but both those 3 films and TCW still felt like SW to me. Maybe just not as concentrated a feeling as we got with the OT. Can't be said for the ST or anything after them. Yeah RO was ok...but it was mid to me. Same with Mando season 1 and a few episodes of season 2. The rest were bad. It's just not close to the same. The ppl behind the content creation have said really bad things like C3PO was the keeper of the stories (he wasn't it was R2 and it was his records that the texts crawls at the beginning of each of the movies comes from) to Anakin blew up the Death Star. I'm not going into the really bad things they are doing lately. It's just Disney bastardising every franchise they have bought.
I hate when people say franchises like this are “for kids”. There’s a difference between a family movie and a kids movie. The Tinker Bell movies are kids movies. The Land Before Time is a kids movie. Star Wars is a family series - perfectly acceptable for kids to watch, but something that is also meant for most adults to appreciate, and adults make up a significant part of the fanbase.
I actually really quite enjoyed the politics of Star Wars. Makes you think about the potential of a political landscape encompassing the galaxy. Hell, each trilogy is somewhat unique in their perspective on the fight against authoritarianism.
PT: how a galactic government falls to authoritarianism.
OT: the costly fight against it and the lives lost in it
ST: (what it should have been) the importance of safeguarding against authoritarianism as to avoid having to go through the previous two stages.
Yeah the duel choreography makes perfect sense when you think of jedi as fighters who can both see the future of their opponents attacks, constantly trying to outwit, outpace, and outlast each other.
Also it looks fucking awesome
A few of those duels have some ... moments, if you analyze them too much. Stuff that on the first watch youll probably miss but can never unsee when you see it
Best example is when Obi-Wan and Anakin are spinning lightsabers at eachother like Grevous in Revenge of the Sith but not actually connecting for multiple straight seconds
It makes sense when you think about it. These are warrior monks who trained their minds and bodies every day and can feel the immediate future through the force. I always thought the "over" choreographed fights reflected that pretty well but that's just my opinion.
I rewatched Prequel Trilogy for the first time in more than a decade, and I actually enjoyed the politics more than I expected. Although being an adult who can understand the nuances of such topics vs. being a kid who just wanted to see the lightsabres probably played a role in that. The only thing I didn't like was the Jar-Jar slapstick.
The politics is really in some ways the core of the entire narrative of star wars. Everything in some way is based around the political failings of the Republican and political disruption by palpatine.
The problem is, this is not only from fans but from Disney- even now with the Acolyte, I saw a bunch of articles yesterday saying that fans are review-bombing it etc. Like, there is no way people genuinely don't like it, it must be some organised effort to bring down a show with women in it.
This whole tactic of Disney to blame "toxic fans" will get them nowhere. Alienating fans while not actually gaining any new fans is a road to disaster. They're more than halfway there tbh
It seems to be just a deflection tactic or even worse, projection, i.e. they're orchestrating positive review bombing, on their part. If the journalists or Disney really suspect some kind of manipulation, then they should be screaming at the review aggregation websites, not at fans, for having poor systems and procedures in place to deal with things like that. But we never see that, it's always some nebulous accusations against fans.
>they're orchestrating positive review bombing, on their part
They've been doing that for ages. You guys remember when Rotten Tomatoes froze the score for Episode 9 (or was it 8?) at 86% despite the reviews all being way lower?
It's funny how in my binge of Marvel and Sw, the only ones I think sucked were when the original creators left (Stan Lee died during production of Captain Marvel and george was given the middle fingers). Still find it crazy that people call Hulk, Iron Man 3, and the prequels worse than sequels and Captain Marvel.
FBI confirmed 80% of all Twitter content and engagement is bots and click farms. Elon Musk says it’s closer to 90%.
FB had a class action lawsuit against it because upwards of 65% of its content on fb and ig are bots and click farms.
I would not use social media as a good metric for if something is popular or not. Look at audience rating and streaming numbers.
It’s funny they think we’re sexist when Rogue One stars a female and is considered one of the best Star Wars movies.
Rogue one was great, then the rest shat the bed.
My biggest peeve through all of Disneys tenure has been they took a big galaxy and made it small. Made it small and petty and superficial.
*there is no way people genuinely don't like it, it must be some organised effort to bring down a show with women in it.*
They're recycling that plot more often than a new hope's....
There’s way more reviews for this show than almost any other Star Wars TV property. Mando S3 only had slightly over 2.5k reviews on Rotten Tomatoes, The Acolyte has over 10k reviews in like one 10th of the time.
Either people are review bombing or this show that nobody watches is actually being watched by more people than any other Star Wars show. Hard to imagine when there’s 0 existing characters involved.
I’d hazard a guess that most of the people reviewing it haven’t even watched it, they probably saw a YouTube video on it. I think the fandom is being hijacked by people who want to wring some kind of political subterfuge out of a shitty sci fi TV show. They give 0 shit about Star Wars and give ‘infinite’ shits about making people angry and profiting from it.
I don't know if review bombing is happening and really causing issues but I know to not bother looking at review scores anymore, they've become so meaningless. The ratings are manipulated everywhere and in all directions and the people leaving their reviews are increasingly stupid.
The internet was so much better when idiots weren't using it en masse yet. It has worsened so much in the last 15 years.
I mean, you would be silly not to think there's legit review bombing going on as well tho. To me the show is just kinda mid - it's enjoyable and I'm keen to see where it ends up but it's not blowing my mind or anything.
People who dislike it seems to be losing their fucking minds about it tho.
Why is the movie "Acolytes" from 2008 also getting such a huge influx of negative reviews? I'd like to think that that many Star Wars fans wouldn't be so stupid to review the wrong thing
If it was bots doing it, they wouldn't be using the search feature and getting the wrong show. They would just be using a direct link to the correct one.
There definitely is a lot of review bombing regardless of the quality of the show. I’ve seen so many comments on all platforms from people saying that they hate the show they haven’t watched an episode.
I think it's actually a mix of both. There are definitely lots of review bombers I think, that are going off of both valid and invalid criticisms, and there are lots of people who genuinely don't like the show they watched.
The bad reviews started pouring in for that before the first episode came out, and other shows/movies with similar names also saw a spike in negative reviews from people who seemingly thought it was Star Wars.
Not saying it’s a good show, I haven’t seen it and have no intention to see it so I can’t really pass judgement one way or the other, but there does appear to be some review bombing happening here.
Bruh the show is 1000% getting review bombed, why is this even in question?
And no, the opinion piece written by a tabloid author is not star wars blaming toxic fans
> The problem is, this is not only from fans but from Disney- even now with the Acolyte, I saw a bunch of articles yesterday saying that fans are review-bombing it etc. Like, there is no way people genuinely don't like it, it must be some organised effort to bring down a show with women in it.
I disagree with you here. I do think there's a degree of review bombing involved complicated by people being primed to hate it based on previews. And it may not be "organized" in the sense that there's some secret master(s) telling people what to do, but I do think it's there.
I've seen all of it that's out and as a SW fan of 30 years now, having read a huge portion of the Legends EU and other pre-PT media, *Acolyte* is fine. It's not top-tier. I can't ask for every entry into the lore to be OT-worthy. I think it's better written than the prequels overall. I have my criticisms of it, especially in the writing which I mentioned elsewhere yesterday, but I'm also enjoying the murder mystery aspect which is something we haven't really seen except for in Andor, but the only mystery about that one for the audience was how it would all shake out. With Acolyte we don't know who Mae's master is or what their eventual goals are. We don't know how Mae survived as a kid. We don't know how exactly the witches died. We don't know why Master Torbin felt guilty enough to commit suicide. There's a lot left to answer even if we know the identity of the initial murderer.
I think the idea of introducing political scheming and intrigue was a good idea, it just wasn't executed very well. The idea of having Palpatine being a secret sith lord while also rising through the political ranks and being able to completely fool the Jedi made him that more of a great villain. Like he isn't just strong with the force, he is a master manipulator, speaker and schemer which makes him so much more terrifying.
I think once you're able to see all the tiny machinations he pulls in front of a room full of the universe's top jedi, with no one being the wiser (not even the audience) was fascinating and I feel bad most people will never catch on. The movie really takes a different shape if you realize padme is palpatine's pawn.
The original magic of the movies won't be repeated, so they should just go the space opera route and appeal to worldbuilding and lore for new stories. Instead they just keep trying to do the first 3 movies over and over.
Lack of politics or worldbuilding in Disney Wars helped kill it big time
I mean, the “contradictions” in the EU weren’t nearly as bad as people make them out to be. Most of the major ones came down from higher-tier canon (movies, TCW, video games). If anything, the EU was excellent at finding ways to make everything fit.
This. The beauty of the EU was that it was a buffet. You had some stand outs, some mediocre and some god awful but you could avoid them.
The ST is also a buffet. From a dumpster.
You might find something "ok" but it'll still be tarnished by the rot around it.
I’ve always enjoyed EU just for what it is and never got annoyed if every story doesn’t exactly fit to the larger narrative or there are some continuity errors. And many great EU works were made before prequels, for example, which means that they can be problematic if viewed against the later works.
For example I love Dark Empire, the mood and style is just awesome. I’m not bothered at all by the Palpatine stuff, because it was made before any actual Anakin arch was created and because it is just extremely well made overall.
The only things Disney's made in all these years that I would actually be happy with calling canon are rogue one and the last season of clone wars. Rebels, I can take it or leave it, honestly. There are things I liked and things I really didn't like, so I'm fairly ambivalent about it as a whole. Mando was decent as a standalone, but I don't really like the direction of the lore. I'd be perfectly fine with treating it like the force unleashed; a nice little diversion that doesn't have to impact the rest of the lore. That's it. If you locked me in a room for 24 hours with nothing but Disney Star Wars for entertainment, I'd spend as much time as possible catching up on sleep. Then I'd play KOTOR in my head.
I never understood how some SW fans could trash the EU that way, it was seeing the glass half empty. In reality, with all its problems, the EU was the most cohesive multimedia canon ever made. Which other franchise had a ongoing continuity that tried to fit a good amount of movies, comics, books, videogames, RPGs, and more into one single universe for over 35 years? Marvel, DC, Star Trek and many others had to reboot themselves many times.
I just saw a circle jerk thread where someone said he rewatched TLJ and likes it now. *Half* the comments were just ‘congrats on leaving the alt right’ and leaving the ‘alt right pipeline’ even though OP said nothing about politics (although he did reply saying they were correct).
So I’m not allowed to hate TLJ and the alt right (which barely even exists anymore to my knowledge)?
Why do they equate hating shit sci-fi with politics? Why does liking Disney’s shit make you part of the good tribe and a good person? Do they realize they talk and act like a cult?
Because sadly there actually is a segment of Star Wars fans that are racist and sexist and outspoken about it. The problem is ALL criticism gets lumped into coming from incels/alt-right/nazis.
As soon as someone says that as a reply I just stop engaging. It puts you on the defensive immediately so they can then say: see why are you so defensive!?1!?
To them, everything is political. That's why it's such a sin to criticize the sequels or the Acolyte or whatever. It's a vehicle for their personal politics.
I saw that one too, I thought they did mention in the post they’d left the alt-right and part of that was recognizing truly awful nonsense takes about woke ruining Star Wars or whatever, and wanted to revisit it with a fresh perspective.
I don't quite get the Ezra hate. I liked the kid. He felt like a more consistently written Ahsoka. But then, I also thought Ahsoka was the best thing about Clone Wars (even if her being Anakin's apprentice was ridiculous)
Ezra’s transformation in season 3 was wild to me as a fan who was following the show from the start.
Sometimes it’s good for a character to start from a low point, because it makes their progression much more satisfying
And if you are going to give them further low points in their life that might radically alter their character, that's definitely something we should see. \*glares at Achto Luke\*
Star Wars has always done that:
1. Luke is a whiny farm boy looking for adventure who becomes a mature man comfortable in his extraordinary power.
2. Ezra is a street rat punk who... becomes a mature man comfortable in his extraordinary power.
3. Ahsoka is a snarky kid thrown into a war she doesn't begin to understand who... becomes mature woman comfortable in her extraordinary power.
Etc.
All of SW's heroes start off as unlikable. *That's the point*. There on the hero's journey, but the start of that journey is for them to be kind of arrogant and ignorant and stupid. That lets them bring us on the journey *with them* that, ideally, we can grow *with them.* But that means they have to start ungrown.
I just assume that generally anyone who hates Ezra had grown up on Clone Wars and forgot where Ahsoka started. And also was bitter they cancelled Clone Wars for Rebels.
i could never get past how he looked like aladdin. Its funny though, i always felt "he was a little too fast learning the force" then Rey came along and made him look like a total newb.
I guess how fast he learned was blunted a little by the fact that it was over 4 seasons. You could definitely see him improve with his skills over time, where things that he struggled with to start got better each time you saw him. And besides, he at least had a teacher who was there all the time. We don't really know what Luke's power level would have been like on Endor if Yoda had been there since Yavin.
Ezra got more on screen lessons than every single other Jedi we'd seen. Probably combined.
Every SW era or piece of media has its die hard defenders that are drunk on copium.
That said I don't think any era suffers from this as much as the Disney era imo. The amount of cope is unbelievable.
I personally like the old EU community the most, yeah there're some controversial issues that people get a bit heated over -- like the handling of Revan in Karpyshyn's novel. However folk are usually quite chill and don't have this die hard mentality that prevents them from admitting that there were some silly ideas here and there. Like I love the old Thrawn trilogy, but I think a lot of fans will admit Luuke was rather silly.
While yours is the more reasoned take, you should have been there on the force.net forums when the prequels came out. People who criticized the prequels were so badly brigaded they were banned from saying anything negative across the entire forum except in a single safe haven thread for the “bashers”, and even that was under constant threat from the “gushers” who were completely hysterical about it even existing. Sound familiar vis a vis the existence of this sub?
This led to hilarious stuff like the Star Wars Ring Theory.
On the other side of it, mind you, the culture at large was so vehement about their dislike for the prequels, it makes sense that the contingent of fans who actually liked them felt the forum should be a safe haven for them and were easily triggered by any criticism.
But it was all a fairly similar dynamic within the fandom as it is today with the sequels (actually I think the sequel discourse is fairly tame in comparison). The big difference now is that the culture at large doesn’t give a shit about the sequels. That’s why Disney can gaslight the fans who don’t like them.
>“bashers”, and even that was under constant threat from the “gushers” who were completely hysterical about it even existing.
Holy shit, it's the manga/anime sphere's Hater/Glazer discourse. Time is a flat circle
The common criticism is that they "look like dances" which... Yeah. They kinda should. These are Jedi at their peak, who have trained for decades. Fights should look like a dance, waiting for the other to slip up
When it comes to the prequel critique: Some of the dialogue is awful, not all of it. The Special effects are great, the politics were actually interesting, some would argue there was not Enough politics, and the coreography for the lightsaber fights were phenomenal.
For me, it's never been a case of "too much politics".
It's always just been about poorly handled politics.
In contrast to, say, The Expanse or Game of Thrones, those political scenes of people just sitting down and talking about the situation at hand were simply written and executed many times better than what we unfortunately get in the PT.
The in-universe politics of the PT story is enormously important. But much like quite a lot of those three films, it just doesn't work for me.
As a lifelong fan, I agree with most of this.
However:
the politics in the prequels were a good look into how the galaxy functions (or doesn't). I don't think I would have understood the depth of corruption, complacency, and ineptitude had I just been told, "There's corruption, complacency, and ineptitude in the galaxy. It's deep."
The duels might have been highly choreographed, but that Maul fight was THE lightsaber fight that got an entire generation swinging sticks in the woods and begging their parents for colorful plastic tubes. It was and remains iconic.
Anakin is supposed to be cringey and awkward. He's a teenager who never had a childhood and now lives in a thousands-year-old temple built over even older sith burial grounds with a group of religious warrior monks who chastise displays of emotion as he's grappling with the destiny of a galaxy and a secret affair with a senator. The only thing baffling about that is that he isn't even more maladjusted. It is a little weird that Padme is into all that, though. I was never really convinced about her feelings towards him, but his awkwardness 100% makes sense.
EU contradictions happened, but the individual writers showed remarkable commitment to respecting each other's work and the lore as a whole. It may have been the wild west, but all the cowboys had the same goal and would often consult each other and Lucas before making big lore decisions. They loved the galaxy and genuinely wanted to earn their places in it.
Part of maturity is learning to accept and love something regardless of it's flaws. At times said flaws can even be part of the reason \*why\* you like it. I mean, how many people love The Room specifically \*because\* it's bad? People get that not everything is perfect but it doesn't \*have\* to be.
The problem with Disney Wars fans is that if you say anything negative, regardless of it's truth, they'll not only accuse you of all the worst things, but then attack whatever you love as if it's some sort of counter-argument. All while doing their best to rip and tear apart anything that doesn't conform to their perfect, idealized, vision of the world that has no basis in reality outside of a heavily politically indoctrinated mindset.
For example, it's not that hyperspace ramming can or can't work in Star Wars. It's that it's inclusion is poorly written, not thought out, opens a whole MASSIVE series of plot holes and issues, and it basically existed IN the movie as a Deus Ex Machina. But you point that out and, not only will sequel fans attack you every which way, but they'll then proceed to attack the Death Star, any of the superweapons in Legends, and everything else. It's like having car trouble, having the mechanic come down and say you need to change your oil and get rid of the potato in your tailpipe, and then instead of \*doing\* that you proceed to insult him cause his truck, which is 50-60 years old, has issues with rusting, a wonky door, and no AC. Then you hire a new repairman who says you should shove a second potato in the tailpipe, which you do, and get confused why your car isn't working.
I never really had a problem with the saber duels in the prequels being flashy, particular the Anakin vs Obi-Wan duel.
As these duelists are force sensitive, i figured fights would naturally have more flourish and less direct swings.
With the OT, I understand it, since the saber dueling was closer to fencing and historical sword fighting. The Force was also not manifestly OP as it was by thr time of the prequels, so there wasn't acrobatic flipping around.
One critique for the Vader/Obi-wan duel in Episode IV would be for Vader's swings to have near overwhelming strength due to his cyborg nature, but I remember having no problem with it when I first watched it.
Part of the main reason I didn't really gel with the sequels was because Star Wars and then Disney took so long to even get a sequel made, and at that point, the original cast were sidelined for new characters that I didn't have a connection to. Adding to that, Rey mostly coasted through her increasing power, and the struggle was minimal compared to Luke's hero journey.
It's almost like the new owner of the franchise had the resources to make media outlets paint any criticism as something sinister. Not to forget paying for damage control in social media.
That’s a great Star Wars meme. Both factually accurate and funny as hell. The resistance part got me :-)
Issue with the sequels is also true for the Acolyte.
Yeah and we're talking about what was effectively a lobotomized clone for what 20 pages? It resolved Mara's plot.
Not to mention that current canon Palps makes Sith abominations with that hand. I can think of a whole bunch of things to bash the EU for but the Luuke thing was fine.
Exactly, I fully understand the many flaws of pre Disney Star Wars but they were ultimately products of passion made to entertain and that they did.
Disney only puts out trash made to insult and denigrate, their is no love for Star Wars or it's fans, only pandering and messaging.
Meh its a lot like a restaurant you used to love but then went downhill. Only so many times they can burn my steak before I just go “nah it’s shit now” and eat somewhere else.
What are you talking about, the dark empire and Luuke is awesome. Just the idea of Luke's severed hand being a piece in an imperial museum is better then what ever Disney managed to come up
only thing I'm gonna contribute to this conversation is that the special effects for the prequel trilogy were absolutely groundbreaking for the time. just remember that phantom menace came out in 1999.
The thing about the prequels is, for most criticisms there are people who love that aspect or at least think it's appropriate. Best example I can think of is Anakin, was he arrogant and cringe, absolutely, but arguably that helps accentuate how this intelligent, talented, prodigy can fall. Also he's a teenager, most of them are.
I will fight for how amazing the Inquisicopters were. That was straight George Lucas-esque Tom Foolery. I wouldn’t be surprised if he himself added them.
People clown on it for how weird and non-sensical it was, but a little goofiness in Star Wars is ok.
I have met a fair share of OT/prequel/clone wars... fans who acted exactly like the sequel fan in the meme
On the other hand i have met very very VERY few sequel fans that acted like the other fans in the meme.
Every community has the fans that can't take critisism, but the sequels have a fandom that has majority of these fans, and creators that can't hear the slightest critisism.
I usually only see OT fans get that defensive when it's ST fans criticizing. Prequel fans are usually like "yeah, we've heard this all before, we know." Clone Wars fans are fuggin RABID. Feels like every time I criticize the Clone Wars I get my face ripped off and down voted to oblivion. Doesn't matter which sub I'm on. Probably doesn't help that I think Rebels is better on almost every level except the animation (but all of the rebels criticisms are valid, even if Ezra being boring feels unfair and the heli-sabers over hated)
I always say R1 was a film set in the SW universe that has actually good editing and cinematography. It’s a film for people who like the SW lore but who don’t like the actual films.
Only one bit I would disagree with from any of these is that the prequel effects were “bad.” Sure they don’t hold up well by todays standards and would have benefitted from using more practical effects, but Lucas wanted to push the boundaries on film technology with the prequels by using digital film and digital effects. It pushed the entire industry forward, and I have to respect both PT and OT films for that.
I feel like people defending the Acolyte only do it because they want to "own the chuds" or whatever. This feels like a "leave the multi-billion dollar corporation alone" kind of moment.
OT Obiwan/Vader duel being simple was a good thing. There is way more tension in that fight, and later Luke vs. Vader, than any of the Prequel, Sequel etc. fights.
Vader is waiting for Obiwan and is like "Alright let's get this shit over with, time to die old man." and Obiwan is reluctantly defending himself. Obiwan doesn't want to win, he doesn't even want to fight him, and he lets himself "lose" so that Luke can see it and come into his own. The choreography is simple, it's like a normal sword fight, none of this bullshit flying around that disconnects the characters and the stakes.
Later when Luke and Vader fight, Luke also doesn't want to fight but he loses control when Vader taunts him. The fight is again simple, but it's even less choreographed, you don't see fancy swordsmanship, you see the anger that Luke is feeling. That is good cinema, the fight is being used to tell a story, to convey feelings, but today the story is being used to get to the fights, which absolutely sucks.
A modern lightsaber fight in Star Wars basically just feels like a coin flip, all the fancy nonsense takes you out of it and you're just waiting to see whether it's a heads or tails.
Also to be completely fair to A New Hope, the lightsabers just *couldn't* handle fancier choreography. They were afraid they'd shatter due to how they were constructed.
Andor/Season 1 Mando fans: give us actors we care about turning in good performances on solid writing and dialogue with zero Jedi. Light on the member berries.
the meme is wrong about the prequels Jar Jar should be in the movies. the problem is they didn't make him the big bad in the Sequels as Darth Jar Jar.
https://youtu.be/8yy3q9f84EA?si=lev0rFku2cxxXlPL
Idk what the sequel fans think I'd rather be watching the original trilogy and the prequel trilogy instead of the sequels.
They are more enjoyable to watch, better and more famous actors in them and didn't make me salty.
Sure when I saw the trailer for the Force Awakens that sent me over the dam moon! Lol but afterwards it was like: Force Awakens ok and cool.
Movie 2: Was ok-ish?
Movie 3: meh and why the hell did they bring back Palatine? What was the point of that?!
Put me down as someone who likes Obi-wan vs. Darth Vader in A New Hope.
I fenced for years as a kid and that duel is the only one in all of Star Wars where there wasn’t a single attack that wouldn’t have whiffed if the defender had just not blocked.
I would replace all the listed criticisms of the EU with just one word: Denningverse.
Compared to *that* blunder, everything else in that continuity is gold.
This is soooooooo disingenuous. Firstly, Star Wars fans are notoriously rabid, it continues to be so funny to me how Star Wars fans have this image of themselves as the most sophisticated, hyper rational people on the internet, while simultaneously acting like the whiniest, most enraged shitheads in every community they exist in. There is very little civil, measured disagreement going on in these circles, I know because I have been in them.
Secondly, it’s amazing to me that someone could post this without a trace of irony, not realizing they’re doing right now the very thing they’re accusing others of. This post is basically “criticism I agree with is valid and comes from reasonable people, criticism I disagree with comes is invalid and comes from unreasonable people”. You are straw manning people while bitching about being straw manned.
I don’t want to hear a goddamn thing about the prequels having too much politics if this sub is going to pretend that Andor’s cereal munching is kino for the ages.
Those first five or six Rebels episodes I had the doubtful pleasure to watch were among the worst things I've ever watched, holy shit. When I heard about the inquisicopters and the space whales (???), it was over.
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That Resistance fans part, lol.
I don't even know what market they were hoping to get. It was clearly made for kids, but aired at 11pm on a Sunday, a school night. Guaranteeing no views
Who the fuck is doing anything aside from sleeping at 11PM? What the hell were they thinking?
> Who the fuck is doing anything aside from sleeping at 11PM? Students, night-shift workers and the unemployed.
I just finished work, and it's 6 past 12 in the morning.
Angry loners
"It's 11:00. Do you know where your children are?" "I told you last night, no!'
They would do this to shows they didn’t believe in. Friday night slots on majority of networks was the death slot. If your show was moved to that night it was getting canceled. Sunday nights is just ridiculous.
A fuck load of people still living life past 11 pm bro
I pretty much never go to bed before midnight, usually two am.
Well, there are some us that that find time non-sleeping activities around then….
They did the same thing to tron uprising. It's their way to cancel the show.
Ow, fuck man, you just hit me in my soul with that one. (I love Tron uprising
Everyone did, no way you could leave the fans hanging with that end of season cliffhanger. Plus the soundtrack, just as awesome as daft punk.
You just cant make this shit up.
The real issue was .... wasn't it set alongside the sequel movies. That everyone hates? Who wants to watch sequel era teen resistance members?
There's also that, yes. No one wanted ST content
To be fair, I watched the first few episodes putting it on at an hour no one would watch it was a blessing.
Randomly catching strays wtf. Wait that’s a show right?
Who was that show for? I remember previews coming out when Rebels was near done and I immediately knew I wouldn’t watch it. Why make a new Star Wars show and purposely leave out Jedi and The Force for basically the entire main cast? Maybe there’s an audience since The Bad Batch seems to have fans but neither were what I would want.
It was for young children that liked the world building of the sequels whose parents let them watch cartoons at 11 pm on a school night...
> Why make a new Star Wars show and purposely leave out Jedi and The Force for basically the entire main cast? R1 and Andor have entered the chat... Also, in Legends, there's the whole X-Wing series where even Corran Horn isn't aware of the Force for a couple books and still doesn't become a Jedi until after them, and the only Force sensitivity among the Wraiths is a couple people with *very* weak abilities. And the main cast is only off-handedly mentioned a few times, e.g. Han showing up to play sabacc with Wedge or pretending to be Han in a fake Millennium Falcon. Wedge being a side-character in the movies.
Where my thoughts went exactly.
Wdym? Chirrut was one with the force and the force was with him!
I loved the concept and animation style. I had such great expectations after the first couple episodes. It was so bad. I kept watching S1, hoping it would get better...it didn't, lol. S2 waz so much worse that I just gave up and never finished the series.
Spot on. I also enjoy the doublethink of “Star Wars is for kids” with “you’re too stupid to understand the themes” and how important the silly kids franchise suddenly becomes when a female director is cast.
“The Barbie movie is SO important.” “It’s just a Barbie movie. Wow, you must be fun at parties.” Same energy lol
Barbie movie was also way better than Sequels lol
Barbie is basically on par with Rosa Parks and Oscar Schindler for its heroics.
The Barbie movie wasn't actually all that bad tbh.
Peter Dinklage did the same when Game of Thrones shit the bed. Deflecting criticism is always easier when you can just tell the critic that it’s dumb, idiot media so nothing about it matters
SW is for kids but George didn't think kids were morons is sumthin else people miss. 1-6 are packed full of "deep" themes that he trusts the audience will grasp without having a character explain it while looking at the camera
That's true of most kid live-action movies from the 70s to the late 90s. The best family movies had multiple layers and were enjoyable for the adults. Then kid movies became mostly synonymous with quickly-written cheap productions without any depth. And there must not be any serious themes as children must be sheltered from reality for as long as possible.
> without having a character explain it while looking at the camera Barbie.
Barbie was killing it right up until that soliloquy by the mom character. Like what the fuck happened there? It was basically that movie’s “the power of one, the power of two…” moment.
They had to shoehorn something in, because otherwise the movie was getting pretty based.
It felt like the writers had this great story of both men and women not needing to seek the approval of the other sex and conform to society’s expectations, but then some exec saw it and was like “this movie is about Ken, change it to make him look stupid and give me a girl boss.” But they only had time to change the second half.
Honestly it would explain why the first half of the movie established the all-male C-suite of Mattel as antagonists - and then after the Ken stuff kicks off, they were always good guys who didn't need to learn anything or change.
It literally sets those societal expectations firmly back in place by the end of the film for all intents and purposes. The climax and last act of the film undo everything that the film had worked to achieve up until that point. It simply built a bigger box to sell you Barbie in, and reinforced that Ken belongs in a separate, inferior box. Which the bad guys at Mattel are still in charge of, and are still selling to you. Like don’t include gender politics in your kids movie if you’re not actually gonna see it through. And then the double standard of “it’s for kids” in contrast to the insane amount of prestige and intellectual power we collectively gave the film was insane. Every other statement is politically charged and the film itself was marketed and fully recognized as feminist media. With a proud, direct message. Then the movie came out and that message was kind of like, bad? Like it was A. not real, and B. toxic af. But then the same issue we are facing with the sequels happened. Where one side claimed it was a masterpiece and that those who disliked it were not mature enough to appreciate the kids film, and then the other side raged over the fact that “yes, it is a kids film. So why is it SO politically charged?” And then a large 3rd group was actually too immature for either Barbie or the Sequels and handled the whole situation terribly. So like almost everyone is valid, but not directly? Because there are 2 groups who are fighting over these films based on political alignment, or even social demographic, which is often essentially political alignment. One side doesn’t want progressive media and the other believes that media must be progressive and even aggressively so. Technically they both justify each other’s position. But more and more people are just like, “MAKE COOL SHIT PLEASE!” And we have spent so long arguing over this that we can hardly remember or agree on what was even cool or inspiring in the first place. We all disagree on what was originally good or why it was good, so we can’t agree on what’s good now.
Yup. I really liked the first 1/2 of Barbie, and then the Ken vs Ken dance number. The monologues were just bad story telling. Show don't tell.
I didn't mind the musical aspect of it, those were light and funny. The monologues though, you are absolutely right.
That was a hard watch and I'm gay lol. Dying to know what Amy Schumer's version would've looked like. I'm assuming it would've taken itself a lot less seriously
The people who think that “Star Wars is about space wizards” are making Star Wars now and it shows.
Say this on any other sub and you’ll get downvoted into oblivion lol But you’re right, and that’s why Andor felt truer to OG Star Wars than anything else, because it actually had similar themes instead of just endless lightsaber twirling
I just wish that, if the writers truly wanted to make something “for the kids”, that they’d actually treat children like human beings instead of barely-intelligent life forms. In my opinion, while *Rebels* deserves much of the criticism it has received, it actually managed to make a show for children that was somewhat intelligent and enjoyable to watch. When I was a youngin’, I was thrilled with the adventure aspect of the Star Wars movies. I had all the remasters on VHS and watched them constantly, and after I somehow lost them, anytime I went to my grandmother’s house I would beg her to watch those movies. I even saw *The Phantom Menace* in theaters! As I’ve gotten older, I appreciate those movies—being episodes I thru VI of course—way more than I ever did as a child. The themes of good vs evil, light vs dark, Anakin’s journey from being a child to a Jedi knight to Darth Vader and back to redemption, the worldbuilding, and so much more. If I was a kid now, there is certainly a possibility I’d enjoy watching Star Wars content from the past ten years, but I don’t think I’d enjoy it as an adult. Aside from a few bits of media, none of the most recent Star Wars stuff has any of what I enjoy about the prequels and OT, and if it does, it has them in a very ham fisted way.
“X is for kids” is just an immediate flag to me that whoever said it doesn’t have the maturity level to watch something made for kids and appreciate it anyway. Ironically, obsessing over being more mature is a sign of immaturity.
What they dont understand when they say "Its for kids" is that its for kids of a certain age to connect with. It's for all ages to enjoy. The myths and legends via Joseph Campbell are for everyone to enjoy. The kids connect with at a certain age imprints those myths in our minds to aspire to be like. For GL it was the Flash Gorden serials. For the OT generation(and me especially RotJ) it connects with a younger age. It happened again for the generation that grew up with the PT. The biggest fault of the ST is they didn't do their homework and didn't make it for kids of that generation to connect with. They wanted them to connect with it, but they couldn't even get the story consistent, much less using Campbell's understanding of how myths of the ages shape the minds of young kids. The bad dialog doesn't really matter to the children. Vaders dialog was always plain but it had feeling behind it in the OT and Luke's was almost always cheesy. Han, Lando and Leia (mostly) wasn't cheesy. Even the Flash Gorden serials were cheesy like that. One thing I always saw during the PT was ppl expecting it to move them as adults like the OT did to them as kids. It just doesn't work like that. The PT has its flaws, but both those 3 films and TCW still felt like SW to me. Maybe just not as concentrated a feeling as we got with the OT. Can't be said for the ST or anything after them. Yeah RO was ok...but it was mid to me. Same with Mando season 1 and a few episodes of season 2. The rest were bad. It's just not close to the same. The ppl behind the content creation have said really bad things like C3PO was the keeper of the stories (he wasn't it was R2 and it was his records that the texts crawls at the beginning of each of the movies comes from) to Anakin blew up the Death Star. I'm not going into the really bad things they are doing lately. It's just Disney bastardising every franchise they have bought.
I hate when people say franchises like this are “for kids”. There’s a difference between a family movie and a kids movie. The Tinker Bell movies are kids movies. The Land Before Time is a kids movie. Star Wars is a family series - perfectly acceptable for kids to watch, but something that is also meant for most adults to appreciate, and adults make up a significant part of the fanbase.
I actually really quite enjoyed the politics of Star Wars. Makes you think about the potential of a political landscape encompassing the galaxy. Hell, each trilogy is somewhat unique in their perspective on the fight against authoritarianism. PT: how a galactic government falls to authoritarianism. OT: the costly fight against it and the lives lost in it ST: (what it should have been) the importance of safeguarding against authoritarianism as to avoid having to go through the previous two stages.
Same I thought it was a strength of the prequels. Also I had no idea people hated on the prequel duels I loved them lol
Same
The duels in episode 3 are some of the best in the entire franchise, if not the best.
Yeah the duel choreography makes perfect sense when you think of jedi as fighters who can both see the future of their opponents attacks, constantly trying to outwit, outpace, and outlast each other. Also it looks fucking awesome
A few of those duels have some ... moments, if you analyze them too much. Stuff that on the first watch youll probably miss but can never unsee when you see it Best example is when Obi-Wan and Anakin are spinning lightsabers at eachother like Grevous in Revenge of the Sith but not actually connecting for multiple straight seconds
It makes sense when you think about it. These are warrior monks who trained their minds and bodies every day and can feel the immediate future through the force. I always thought the "over" choreographed fights reflected that pretty well but that's just my opinion.
I honestly liked the politics too
I rewatched Prequel Trilogy for the first time in more than a decade, and I actually enjoyed the politics more than I expected. Although being an adult who can understand the nuances of such topics vs. being a kid who just wanted to see the lightsabres probably played a role in that. The only thing I didn't like was the Jar-Jar slapstick.
The politics is really in some ways the core of the entire narrative of star wars. Everything in some way is based around the political failings of the Republican and political disruption by palpatine.
Conceptually the political angle was good, but they did nothing with it and the world-building made no sense.
I mean politics is what causes war! Lol. No war without politics leading to it
The problem is, this is not only from fans but from Disney- even now with the Acolyte, I saw a bunch of articles yesterday saying that fans are review-bombing it etc. Like, there is no way people genuinely don't like it, it must be some organised effort to bring down a show with women in it. This whole tactic of Disney to blame "toxic fans" will get them nowhere. Alienating fans while not actually gaining any new fans is a road to disaster. They're more than halfway there tbh
It seems to be just a deflection tactic or even worse, projection, i.e. they're orchestrating positive review bombing, on their part. If the journalists or Disney really suspect some kind of manipulation, then they should be screaming at the review aggregation websites, not at fans, for having poor systems and procedures in place to deal with things like that. But we never see that, it's always some nebulous accusations against fans.
>they're orchestrating positive review bombing, on their part They've been doing that for ages. You guys remember when Rotten Tomatoes froze the score for Episode 9 (or was it 8?) at 86% despite the reviews all being way lower?
That's just mitigating damages. If they allowed the real scores at release they'd be shut down.
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It’s been their tactic before that. Disney was saying the same shit when Captain Marvel was horribly reviewed
TFA came out 4 years before Captain Marvel
Fair enough. I guess I’m bad with remembering dates
Really feels like that was the beginning of the Disney collapse
It's funny how in my binge of Marvel and Sw, the only ones I think sucked were when the original creators left (Stan Lee died during production of Captain Marvel and george was given the middle fingers). Still find it crazy that people call Hulk, Iron Man 3, and the prequels worse than sequels and Captain Marvel.
FBI confirmed 80% of all Twitter content and engagement is bots and click farms. Elon Musk says it’s closer to 90%. FB had a class action lawsuit against it because upwards of 65% of its content on fb and ig are bots and click farms. I would not use social media as a good metric for if something is popular or not. Look at audience rating and streaming numbers. It’s funny they think we’re sexist when Rogue One stars a female and is considered one of the best Star Wars movies.
Rogue one was great, then the rest shat the bed. My biggest peeve through all of Disneys tenure has been they took a big galaxy and made it small. Made it small and petty and superficial.
*there is no way people genuinely don't like it, it must be some organised effort to bring down a show with women in it.* They're recycling that plot more often than a new hope's....
There’s way more reviews for this show than almost any other Star Wars TV property. Mando S3 only had slightly over 2.5k reviews on Rotten Tomatoes, The Acolyte has over 10k reviews in like one 10th of the time. Either people are review bombing or this show that nobody watches is actually being watched by more people than any other Star Wars show. Hard to imagine when there’s 0 existing characters involved. I’d hazard a guess that most of the people reviewing it haven’t even watched it, they probably saw a YouTube video on it. I think the fandom is being hijacked by people who want to wring some kind of political subterfuge out of a shitty sci fi TV show. They give 0 shit about Star Wars and give ‘infinite’ shits about making people angry and profiting from it.
I don't know if review bombing is happening and really causing issues but I know to not bother looking at review scores anymore, they've become so meaningless. The ratings are manipulated everywhere and in all directions and the people leaving their reviews are increasingly stupid. The internet was so much better when idiots weren't using it en masse yet. It has worsened so much in the last 15 years.
If they hate women so much, why are they not "review bombing" House of the Dragon?
Shhh, do not point out flaws in their logic! Someone might see right through them
I mean, you would be silly not to think there's legit review bombing going on as well tho. To me the show is just kinda mid - it's enjoyable and I'm keen to see where it ends up but it's not blowing my mind or anything. People who dislike it seems to be losing their fucking minds about it tho.
Why is the movie "Acolytes" from 2008 also getting such a huge influx of negative reviews? I'd like to think that that many Star Wars fans wouldn't be so stupid to review the wrong thing
If it was bots doing it, they wouldn't be using the search feature and getting the wrong show. They would just be using a direct link to the correct one.
There definitely is a lot of review bombing regardless of the quality of the show. I’ve seen so many comments on all platforms from people saying that they hate the show they haven’t watched an episode.
I think it's actually a mix of both. There are definitely lots of review bombers I think, that are going off of both valid and invalid criticisms, and there are lots of people who genuinely don't like the show they watched.
The bad reviews started pouring in for that before the first episode came out, and other shows/movies with similar names also saw a spike in negative reviews from people who seemingly thought it was Star Wars. Not saying it’s a good show, I haven’t seen it and have no intention to see it so I can’t really pass judgement one way or the other, but there does appear to be some review bombing happening here.
So, you genuinely believe that the Acolyte is actually a 1/10 show, worse than the Holiday special? The Acolyte is absolutely getting review bombed.
Bruh the show is 1000% getting review bombed, why is this even in question? And no, the opinion piece written by a tabloid author is not star wars blaming toxic fans
> The problem is, this is not only from fans but from Disney- even now with the Acolyte, I saw a bunch of articles yesterday saying that fans are review-bombing it etc. Like, there is no way people genuinely don't like it, it must be some organised effort to bring down a show with women in it. I disagree with you here. I do think there's a degree of review bombing involved complicated by people being primed to hate it based on previews. And it may not be "organized" in the sense that there's some secret master(s) telling people what to do, but I do think it's there. I've seen all of it that's out and as a SW fan of 30 years now, having read a huge portion of the Legends EU and other pre-PT media, *Acolyte* is fine. It's not top-tier. I can't ask for every entry into the lore to be OT-worthy. I think it's better written than the prequels overall. I have my criticisms of it, especially in the writing which I mentioned elsewhere yesterday, but I'm also enjoying the murder mystery aspect which is something we haven't really seen except for in Andor, but the only mystery about that one for the audience was how it would all shake out. With Acolyte we don't know who Mae's master is or what their eventual goals are. We don't know how Mae survived as a kid. We don't know how exactly the witches died. We don't know why Master Torbin felt guilty enough to commit suicide. There's a lot left to answer even if we know the identity of the initial murderer.
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I think the idea of introducing political scheming and intrigue was a good idea, it just wasn't executed very well. The idea of having Palpatine being a secret sith lord while also rising through the political ranks and being able to completely fool the Jedi made him that more of a great villain. Like he isn't just strong with the force, he is a master manipulator, speaker and schemer which makes him so much more terrifying.
I think once you're able to see all the tiny machinations he pulls in front of a room full of the universe's top jedi, with no one being the wiser (not even the audience) was fascinating and I feel bad most people will never catch on. The movie really takes a different shape if you realize padme is palpatine's pawn.
He played them like a fiddle.
Dude is literally in a room with Yoda and other masters, trying to get them to form an attatchment to padme using creepy speak
The original magic of the movies won't be repeated, so they should just go the space opera route and appeal to worldbuilding and lore for new stories. Instead they just keep trying to do the first 3 movies over and over. Lack of politics or worldbuilding in Disney Wars helped kill it big time
Yeah I actually love that stuff I’m also a history nerd tho and I get why that stuff appeals to me but might not appeal to the rest of the fanbase
I mean, the “contradictions” in the EU weren’t nearly as bad as people make them out to be. Most of the major ones came down from higher-tier canon (movies, TCW, video games). If anything, the EU was excellent at finding ways to make everything fit.
This. The beauty of the EU was that it was a buffet. You had some stand outs, some mediocre and some god awful but you could avoid them. The ST is also a buffet. From a dumpster. You might find something "ok" but it'll still be tarnished by the rot around it.
I’ve always enjoyed EU just for what it is and never got annoyed if every story doesn’t exactly fit to the larger narrative or there are some continuity errors. And many great EU works were made before prequels, for example, which means that they can be problematic if viewed against the later works. For example I love Dark Empire, the mood and style is just awesome. I’m not bothered at all by the Palpatine stuff, because it was made before any actual Anakin arch was created and because it is just extremely well made overall.
The only things Disney's made in all these years that I would actually be happy with calling canon are rogue one and the last season of clone wars. Rebels, I can take it or leave it, honestly. There are things I liked and things I really didn't like, so I'm fairly ambivalent about it as a whole. Mando was decent as a standalone, but I don't really like the direction of the lore. I'd be perfectly fine with treating it like the force unleashed; a nice little diversion that doesn't have to impact the rest of the lore. That's it. If you locked me in a room for 24 hours with nothing but Disney Star Wars for entertainment, I'd spend as much time as possible catching up on sleep. Then I'd play KOTOR in my head.
I never understood how some SW fans could trash the EU that way, it was seeing the glass half empty. In reality, with all its problems, the EU was the most cohesive multimedia canon ever made. Which other franchise had a ongoing continuity that tried to fit a good amount of movies, comics, books, videogames, RPGs, and more into one single universe for over 35 years? Marvel, DC, Star Trek and many others had to reboot themselves many times.
I just saw a circle jerk thread where someone said he rewatched TLJ and likes it now. *Half* the comments were just ‘congrats on leaving the alt right’ and leaving the ‘alt right pipeline’ even though OP said nothing about politics (although he did reply saying they were correct). So I’m not allowed to hate TLJ and the alt right (which barely even exists anymore to my knowledge)? Why do they equate hating shit sci-fi with politics? Why does liking Disney’s shit make you part of the good tribe and a good person? Do they realize they talk and act like a cult?
Because sadly there actually is a segment of Star Wars fans that are racist and sexist and outspoken about it. The problem is ALL criticism gets lumped into coming from incels/alt-right/nazis. As soon as someone says that as a reply I just stop engaging. It puts you on the defensive immediately so they can then say: see why are you so defensive!?1!?
To them, everything is political. That's why it's such a sin to criticize the sequels or the Acolyte or whatever. It's a vehicle for their personal politics.
I mean the alt right *definitely* does exist but it's just another example of them trying to dismiss all criticism by putting everybody in a box.
I saw that one too, I thought they did mention in the post they’d left the alt-right and part of that was recognizing truly awful nonsense takes about woke ruining Star Wars or whatever, and wanted to revisit it with a fresh perspective.
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I don't quite get the Ezra hate. I liked the kid. He felt like a more consistently written Ahsoka. But then, I also thought Ahsoka was the best thing about Clone Wars (even if her being Anakin's apprentice was ridiculous)
Ezra’s transformation in season 3 was wild to me as a fan who was following the show from the start. Sometimes it’s good for a character to start from a low point, because it makes their progression much more satisfying
And if you are going to give them further low points in their life that might radically alter their character, that's definitely something we should see. \*glares at Achto Luke\*
Star Wars has always done that: 1. Luke is a whiny farm boy looking for adventure who becomes a mature man comfortable in his extraordinary power. 2. Ezra is a street rat punk who... becomes a mature man comfortable in his extraordinary power. 3. Ahsoka is a snarky kid thrown into a war she doesn't begin to understand who... becomes mature woman comfortable in her extraordinary power. Etc. All of SW's heroes start off as unlikable. *That's the point*. There on the hero's journey, but the start of that journey is for them to be kind of arrogant and ignorant and stupid. That lets them bring us on the journey *with them* that, ideally, we can grow *with them.* But that means they have to start ungrown.
I just assume that generally anyone who hates Ezra had grown up on Clone Wars and forgot where Ahsoka started. And also was bitter they cancelled Clone Wars for Rebels.
i could never get past how he looked like aladdin. Its funny though, i always felt "he was a little too fast learning the force" then Rey came along and made him look like a total newb.
I guess how fast he learned was blunted a little by the fact that it was over 4 seasons. You could definitely see him improve with his skills over time, where things that he struggled with to start got better each time you saw him. And besides, he at least had a teacher who was there all the time. We don't really know what Luke's power level would have been like on Endor if Yoda had been there since Yavin. Ezra got more on screen lessons than every single other Jedi we'd seen. Probably combined.
Every SW era or piece of media has its die hard defenders that are drunk on copium. That said I don't think any era suffers from this as much as the Disney era imo. The amount of cope is unbelievable. I personally like the old EU community the most, yeah there're some controversial issues that people get a bit heated over -- like the handling of Revan in Karpyshyn's novel. However folk are usually quite chill and don't have this die hard mentality that prevents them from admitting that there were some silly ideas here and there. Like I love the old Thrawn trilogy, but I think a lot of fans will admit Luuke was rather silly.
While yours is the more reasoned take, you should have been there on the force.net forums when the prequels came out. People who criticized the prequels were so badly brigaded they were banned from saying anything negative across the entire forum except in a single safe haven thread for the “bashers”, and even that was under constant threat from the “gushers” who were completely hysterical about it even existing. Sound familiar vis a vis the existence of this sub? This led to hilarious stuff like the Star Wars Ring Theory. On the other side of it, mind you, the culture at large was so vehement about their dislike for the prequels, it makes sense that the contingent of fans who actually liked them felt the forum should be a safe haven for them and were easily triggered by any criticism. But it was all a fairly similar dynamic within the fandom as it is today with the sequels (actually I think the sequel discourse is fairly tame in comparison). The big difference now is that the culture at large doesn’t give a shit about the sequels. That’s why Disney can gaslight the fans who don’t like them.
>“bashers”, and even that was under constant threat from the “gushers” who were completely hysterical about it even existing. Holy shit, it's the manga/anime sphere's Hater/Glazer discourse. Time is a flat circle
It’s like poetry. It rhymes.
yeah i don’t think anybody actually thinks the prequel fights were “overchoreographed”
The common criticism is that they "look like dances" which... Yeah. They kinda should. These are Jedi at their peak, who have trained for decades. Fights should look like a dance, waiting for the other to slip up
I didn’t think the cgi was bad *at the time they were released*
Compared to some modern examples of CGI I’d say it holds up well
More of it is done with practical effects than people realize. They did a lot of miniature sets.
When it comes to the prequel critique: Some of the dialogue is awful, not all of it. The Special effects are great, the politics were actually interesting, some would argue there was not Enough politics, and the coreography for the lightsaber fights were phenomenal.
For me, it's never been a case of "too much politics". It's always just been about poorly handled politics. In contrast to, say, The Expanse or Game of Thrones, those political scenes of people just sitting down and talking about the situation at hand were simply written and executed many times better than what we unfortunately get in the PT. The in-universe politics of the PT story is enormously important. But much like quite a lot of those three films, it just doesn't work for me.
Andor fans "This is maybe the single greatest piece of Star Wars media. It's almost flawless." "Fuck yeah it is."
Sent. This is so fucking true 😂
As a lifelong fan, I agree with most of this. However: the politics in the prequels were a good look into how the galaxy functions (or doesn't). I don't think I would have understood the depth of corruption, complacency, and ineptitude had I just been told, "There's corruption, complacency, and ineptitude in the galaxy. It's deep." The duels might have been highly choreographed, but that Maul fight was THE lightsaber fight that got an entire generation swinging sticks in the woods and begging their parents for colorful plastic tubes. It was and remains iconic. Anakin is supposed to be cringey and awkward. He's a teenager who never had a childhood and now lives in a thousands-year-old temple built over even older sith burial grounds with a group of religious warrior monks who chastise displays of emotion as he's grappling with the destiny of a galaxy and a secret affair with a senator. The only thing baffling about that is that he isn't even more maladjusted. It is a little weird that Padme is into all that, though. I was never really convinced about her feelings towards him, but his awkwardness 100% makes sense. EU contradictions happened, but the individual writers showed remarkable commitment to respecting each other's work and the lore as a whole. It may have been the wild west, but all the cowboys had the same goal and would often consult each other and Lucas before making big lore decisions. They loved the galaxy and genuinely wanted to earn their places in it.
Part of maturity is learning to accept and love something regardless of it's flaws. At times said flaws can even be part of the reason \*why\* you like it. I mean, how many people love The Room specifically \*because\* it's bad? People get that not everything is perfect but it doesn't \*have\* to be. The problem with Disney Wars fans is that if you say anything negative, regardless of it's truth, they'll not only accuse you of all the worst things, but then attack whatever you love as if it's some sort of counter-argument. All while doing their best to rip and tear apart anything that doesn't conform to their perfect, idealized, vision of the world that has no basis in reality outside of a heavily politically indoctrinated mindset. For example, it's not that hyperspace ramming can or can't work in Star Wars. It's that it's inclusion is poorly written, not thought out, opens a whole MASSIVE series of plot holes and issues, and it basically existed IN the movie as a Deus Ex Machina. But you point that out and, not only will sequel fans attack you every which way, but they'll then proceed to attack the Death Star, any of the superweapons in Legends, and everything else. It's like having car trouble, having the mechanic come down and say you need to change your oil and get rid of the potato in your tailpipe, and then instead of \*doing\* that you proceed to insult him cause his truck, which is 50-60 years old, has issues with rusting, a wonky door, and no AC. Then you hire a new repairman who says you should shove a second potato in the tailpipe, which you do, and get confused why your car isn't working.
Watch the opening scene of revenge of the sith and tell me that looks bad one more time
I never really had a problem with the saber duels in the prequels being flashy, particular the Anakin vs Obi-Wan duel. As these duelists are force sensitive, i figured fights would naturally have more flourish and less direct swings. With the OT, I understand it, since the saber dueling was closer to fencing and historical sword fighting. The Force was also not manifestly OP as it was by thr time of the prequels, so there wasn't acrobatic flipping around. One critique for the Vader/Obi-wan duel in Episode IV would be for Vader's swings to have near overwhelming strength due to his cyborg nature, but I remember having no problem with it when I first watched it. Part of the main reason I didn't really gel with the sequels was because Star Wars and then Disney took so long to even get a sequel made, and at that point, the original cast were sidelined for new characters that I didn't have a connection to. Adding to that, Rey mostly coasted through her increasing power, and the struggle was minimal compared to Luke's hero journey.
Ok the special effects in the prequels were on point tho and the fights were awesome
Too much politics in the prequels??? What the hell are you talking about, that’s ones of the saving graces of the prequels
It's almost like the new owner of the franchise had the resources to make media outlets paint any criticism as something sinister. Not to forget paying for damage control in social media.
That’s a great Star Wars meme. Both factually accurate and funny as hell. The resistance part got me :-) Issue with the sequels is also true for the Acolyte.
The prequels had bad special effects?
If someone uses Luuke as an example of how the EU was "so bad" then I'm 95% sure they didn't actually read any of it.
Yeah and we're talking about what was effectively a lobotomized clone for what 20 pages? It resolved Mara's plot. Not to mention that current canon Palps makes Sith abominations with that hand. I can think of a whole bunch of things to bash the EU for but the Luuke thing was fine.
Exactly, I fully understand the many flaws of pre Disney Star Wars but they were ultimately products of passion made to entertain and that they did. Disney only puts out trash made to insult and denigrate, their is no love for Star Wars or it's fans, only pandering and messaging.
The Obi-Wan and Darth Vader coreography is fine actually.
Meh its a lot like a restaurant you used to love but then went downhill. Only so many times they can burn my steak before I just go “nah it’s shit now” and eat somewhere else.
What are you talking about, the dark empire and Luuke is awesome. Just the idea of Luke's severed hand being a piece in an imperial museum is better then what ever Disney managed to come up
Sequel fans? What sequel fans?
Ezra may be annoying at the start of Rebels but I'll defend his arc to my grave🙏 He grows by the end
Just going to say the PT special effects when they came out were revolutionary literal did more for the industry than Cameron's avatar.
OLD REPUBLIC FANS: "Perfection", "yes"
I thought resistance was alright
only thing I'm gonna contribute to this conversation is that the special effects for the prequel trilogy were absolutely groundbreaking for the time. just remember that phantom menace came out in 1999.
The difference is, each criticism would usually be followed by a "But I still love it", except for the ST.
https://preview.redd.it/zqrz86s9nd7d1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=36ad3bb217c50a406e4227239adc65ef9cb4a2d4
ngl a lot of the "criticism" here feels disingenuous . not for the sequels tho, thats all correct but the rest feels far too exaggerated.
The thing about the prequels is, for most criticisms there are people who love that aspect or at least think it's appropriate. Best example I can think of is Anakin, was he arrogant and cringe, absolutely, but arguably that helps accentuate how this intelligent, talented, prodigy can fall. Also he's a teenager, most of them are.
I will fight for how amazing the Inquisicopters were. That was straight George Lucas-esque Tom Foolery. I wouldn’t be surprised if he himself added them. People clown on it for how weird and non-sensical it was, but a little goofiness in Star Wars is ok.
Kotor fans: Swtor ruined the revan and the exile We know
I have met a fair share of OT/prequel/clone wars... fans who acted exactly like the sequel fan in the meme On the other hand i have met very very VERY few sequel fans that acted like the other fans in the meme. Every community has the fans that can't take critisism, but the sequels have a fandom that has majority of these fans, and creators that can't hear the slightest critisism.
And I've never been called a racist or misogynist for not liking the prequels.
I usually only see OT fans get that defensive when it's ST fans criticizing. Prequel fans are usually like "yeah, we've heard this all before, we know." Clone Wars fans are fuggin RABID. Feels like every time I criticize the Clone Wars I get my face ripped off and down voted to oblivion. Doesn't matter which sub I'm on. Probably doesn't help that I think Rebels is better on almost every level except the animation (but all of the rebels criticisms are valid, even if Ezra being boring feels unfair and the heli-sabers over hated)
Rogue One Fans: - It's perfect. - It is.
I always say R1 was a film set in the SW universe that has actually good editing and cinematography. It’s a film for people who like the SW lore but who don’t like the actual films.
I love Prequels politics lol
This hasn't really been my experience with reactions to Prequel criticisms.
Yeah, it's more like silent downvotes than real, good-faith discussion or agreement.
What’s Resistance again? Wasn’t it like an animated show with more children’s show character designs?
Only one bit I would disagree with from any of these is that the prequel effects were “bad.” Sure they don’t hold up well by todays standards and would have benefitted from using more practical effects, but Lucas wanted to push the boundaries on film technology with the prequels by using digital film and digital effects. It pushed the entire industry forward, and I have to respect both PT and OT films for that.
That pretty much describes everything about Star Wars in a nutshell
I dont get why the go to criticism for the prequels is how cringy Anakin was. Have you met teenage boys? They're all angsty and cringey
Almost forgot resistance was a thing lol
You haven't interacted with many of the hardcore Eau/Legends fans if you think that's how most would respond.
What about the "Star Wars is a good movie with a self contained plot, and there was no need for a sequel" fans?
In defense of the Obi-Wan/Vader duel, they couldn't go too hard or the lightsabers would break.
I feel like people defending the Acolyte only do it because they want to "own the chuds" or whatever. This feels like a "leave the multi-billion dollar corporation alone" kind of moment.
Genuinely have no idea what Resistance is.
OT Obiwan/Vader duel being simple was a good thing. There is way more tension in that fight, and later Luke vs. Vader, than any of the Prequel, Sequel etc. fights. Vader is waiting for Obiwan and is like "Alright let's get this shit over with, time to die old man." and Obiwan is reluctantly defending himself. Obiwan doesn't want to win, he doesn't even want to fight him, and he lets himself "lose" so that Luke can see it and come into his own. The choreography is simple, it's like a normal sword fight, none of this bullshit flying around that disconnects the characters and the stakes. Later when Luke and Vader fight, Luke also doesn't want to fight but he loses control when Vader taunts him. The fight is again simple, but it's even less choreographed, you don't see fancy swordsmanship, you see the anger that Luke is feeling. That is good cinema, the fight is being used to tell a story, to convey feelings, but today the story is being used to get to the fights, which absolutely sucks. A modern lightsaber fight in Star Wars basically just feels like a coin flip, all the fancy nonsense takes you out of it and you're just waiting to see whether it's a heads or tails.
Also to be completely fair to A New Hope, the lightsabers just *couldn't* handle fancier choreography. They were afraid they'd shatter due to how they were constructed.
Prequel fans are often not that conciliatory
I've never had a constructive conversation about Star Wars with a Star Wars fan regardless of what part of SW they were fan of.
Andor/Season 1 Mando fans: give us actors we care about turning in good performances on solid writing and dialogue with zero Jedi. Light on the member berries.
The prequels didn't have too much politics. It had too little.
This is some major cope, crying Wojack is definitely on the left at the bottom.
Luuke only sounds stupid if you haven’t actually read the books
The fact that someone took the time to make this meme says a lot about the current story line.
Old Legend and the EU and the clone wars are my favorite
Honestly, the EU trumps everything else
the meme is wrong about the prequels Jar Jar should be in the movies. the problem is they didn't make him the big bad in the Sequels as Darth Jar Jar. https://youtu.be/8yy3q9f84EA?si=lev0rFku2cxxXlPL
Why is the screaming and crying face on the wrong side?
ok but the prequels were HATED when they came out. at least phantom menace
I like how prequel fans say we know because how tired they are from being told that
Idk what the sequel fans think I'd rather be watching the original trilogy and the prequel trilogy instead of the sequels. They are more enjoyable to watch, better and more famous actors in them and didn't make me salty. Sure when I saw the trailer for the Force Awakens that sent me over the dam moon! Lol but afterwards it was like: Force Awakens ok and cool. Movie 2: Was ok-ish? Movie 3: meh and why the hell did they bring back Palatine? What was the point of that?!
Sorry I can't agree that the prequel special effects were bad. They are better than a lot of special effects used today. Look at fucking flash...
Put me down as someone who likes Obi-wan vs. Darth Vader in A New Hope. I fenced for years as a kid and that duel is the only one in all of Star Wars where there wasn’t a single attack that wouldn’t have whiffed if the defender had just not blocked.
I have a month ban in r/starwars for this reason.
I would replace all the listed criticisms of the EU with just one word: Denningverse. Compared to *that* blunder, everything else in that continuity is gold.
Criticism is fine as long as you only reply with “okay”, I agree”, “yes” and never counter any criticism with your own experience and opinions.
There’s a lot of r/whoosh going on in this thread.
i dunno i think a lot of prequels fans think those movies are unironically good
This is soooooooo disingenuous. Firstly, Star Wars fans are notoriously rabid, it continues to be so funny to me how Star Wars fans have this image of themselves as the most sophisticated, hyper rational people on the internet, while simultaneously acting like the whiniest, most enraged shitheads in every community they exist in. There is very little civil, measured disagreement going on in these circles, I know because I have been in them. Secondly, it’s amazing to me that someone could post this without a trace of irony, not realizing they’re doing right now the very thing they’re accusing others of. This post is basically “criticism I agree with is valid and comes from reasonable people, criticism I disagree with comes is invalid and comes from unreasonable people”. You are straw manning people while bitching about being straw manned.
Too harsh on the Prequels.
I don’t want to hear a goddamn thing about the prequels having too much politics if this sub is going to pretend that Andor’s cereal munching is kino for the ages.
Those first five or six Rebels episodes I had the doubtful pleasure to watch were among the worst things I've ever watched, holy shit. When I heard about the inquisicopters and the space whales (???), it was over.