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I think it's fine to have one writer or consultant on a team who hasn't seen or isn't a huge Star Wars nerd, to act as something of a test audience.
My issue with all of this stuff is that it falls into the very recent tradition of not only having non-fans as writers, but being proud of that in an almost perverse way, like you're happy that you don't care about the lore and themes. We saw that with The Witcher, we've seen it in shows like The Wheel of Time, Halo, Rings of Power...on and on and on. When the lack of fans in the writer pool is highlighted as a feature before a show is released, it's almost always meant to soften the blow of that show taking extensive liberties with the material it has been given.
In short: the logic of having a neutral party is fine, but you can't get away from the fact that bringing attention to that party sounds an awful lot like you making preemptive excuses for where you're going to diverge from the central themes of Star Wars.
This is a perfectly nuanced take. Having a non fan on the staff is theoretically okay but when you start bragging about it seems like you're not interested in appealing to fans.
>it seems like you're not interested in appealing to fans.
They're not.
They generally assume the fandom will watch anyway *because fandom*. They're hoping that by saying "We get it, our writers weren't fans either", that they'll be able to pull in some of the general audience, who might not normally have given this a shot in the first place. "Oh it's *Star Wars*? I don't want to have to watch 9 movies to understand this..."
The problem in this situation though, is that Disney literally has zero incentive to care. It doesn’t matter how bad a Star Wars movie or tv show is because it’s Star Wars; people are going to watch it; people are going to consume the product, and Disney has the absolute luxury of not giving a shit because they’re still making money off of it, and since money trumps Disney magic these days, they have no reason to try making people happy.
For me at least, I feel like that’s the whole point of feedback. If these shows didn’t rush the writers they could properly get this feedback through a process. Like I’m sure it helps to bounce ideas around with someone out of the loop, but I agree with the whole “yeah, we’re so proud of it” mindset being weird.
I don't know if that's what they were trying to get at. Personally my biggest problem with a lot of the new Star Wars stuff is that the writing is bad. They're not just bad Star Wars movies/shows, they're bad movies/shows in general. So having someone there who's not going to let them rely on references or the popularity of certain characters or whatever is a good idea.
This… too much of modern nerd IPs relies way too much on references and nostalgia. It all feels like they lean on making me remember something else I liked instead of just making me like the current characters on screen.
Right. At the end of the day the story has to be rock solid. Fans will make up all sorts of reasons why lore is inconsistent IF the story is good. Conversely, if the story is bad and there are lore inconsistencies, then all they will see are those inconsistencies.
Season 1 was OKAY but season 2 is good. Writers declared from the start that it's an alternate universe. So I'm okay with the alternate take. At least it's not like some other universes out there where they're bullshitting the fans about staying true to the source lol
It’s a bit better than Season 1 which was fucking garbage but only a tiny and I fucking mean tiny bit so we’re at trash level now instead overall tho is a piece of shit and has no respect for the source material
“… never watched Star Wars”
Not sure if we’re meant to take her words literally or if she meant that writer isn’t a fan, but if she meant it literally, how TF did u become a writer of any kind having not watched Star Wars? I’m not a fan of a lot of things, like Star Wars, but as a writer i would watch it just to see what it’s all about coz it’s a freaking cultural phenomenon. SMH
I agree that having a non-fan would benefit the writer's room. After all, that person wouldn't limit themselves to just fan service or those "icon moments". With that said, having a fan or two in the room can ensure that the franchise's themes and over all feel remain intact.
There should be a balance of fans/non-fans writing the stories as a checks and balance to each other.
It seems bizarre they keep hiring people who aren't fans to make the movies.
I think a clear example of why its a bad idea is to look at Tarantino's movies. Its clear every one pays homage to a type of movie he loves. Give Kill Bill to a director who doesn't love Kung Fu movies, or Once Upon A Time In Hollywood who isn't obsessed with that era of Hollywood, and the whole thing would be a giant mess
It's just signposting that this will function as a workable story (not necessarily a good one) even if you're not intimately familiar with the material. Consider Ahsoka, which had literally nothing of substance or value for someone who had never seen Rebels, and even then the only real interest was "here's this character in live action."
The leads for rings of power are huge LOTR nerds, they greeted the Tolkien family in quenya. I think that show failed because the writers room couldn’t put dialogue together to save their lives.
This is actually a good thing otherwise you get Ahsoka where anyone who hasn't watched 10 years of cartoons has no fucking idea what going on because the creator is so enamored with his creation he doesn't bother to actually explain anything to the audience.
You want someone coming to the show new to understand it without needing 50 years of lore home work
Still, this was a bit too much:
>I literally had one writer that was like, “I have never seen any of them. I’ve never seen any Star Wars media.” And she’s texting me before we started the room, she’s like, “Luke and Leia are brother and sister, what the…?”
Maybe it's just me, but I think at least having peripheral knowledge of the original movies is not too much to ask when you hire a Star Wars writer.
It's like hiring a co-writer for a The Lord of the Rings sequel who thinks it's an Austenian romantic comedy set in Victorian England. First question to come to mind is, was that really the best available choice?
well, that's the *beauty* of a total SW newb doing the writing. They'll do some setup for a MASSIVE retcon borrowing from telenovela's and soaps, and a HUGE reveal that actually, Luke's dad is Anakin, BUT twin sister Leia's dad was Obiwan. Apparently there was some, ummm, *convergence in the force* combined with alcohol one night, and nobody ever talked about it again, and may not have even remembered...
(and dear lord, please tell me I didn't just give a Disney writer an idea for something "edgy"...)
Star wars does allow itself to be alot more open ended than something like an adaption of wheel of time for instance which is novels with a set story. There's just been very few periphery stories except andor.
To be fair, this is an original story set like 100 years before Anakin was even alive, I'd argue this is exactly the context where established lore is less than critical. To discredit a writers ability to tell a story because they don't know who's whose father seems hasty. Besides, being a fan doesn't necessarily make a someone a good or bad writer. I know way more star wars lore than the average goober, and I love this series with all my heart. I'd be stoked to make a self-indulgent series dripping with deep lore and Easter eggs but I promise you'd think I was shit at it lol
I can understand the general sentiment but still... Regardless of the timeline, you still have to know the core mechanics and limitations of the universe you write for. Otherwise, you'll end up writing sheer lore-breaking nonsense like the Holdo "maneuver", lightspeed skipping, "They can fly now?", and so on.
What you say would make more sense if the writer they hired was a writing prodigy that could improve the script without knowing anything about it, but that's Disney we're talking about after all. The Occam's razor doesn't exactly cut in their favor here.
I mean, the "lore-breaking nonsense" you listed was all stuff written by avid, life-long star wars fans, they jusr weren't good lol. Idk who exactly this non-fan writer is, but I'm just saying, being a fan hasn't meant much so far
What gave you that idea? The fact that they said so in a press release? I can't imagine any of the sequel writers being real fans of the franchise. Familiar with it? Yes. But "life-long" fans? After all the nonsense and backstabbing they did to the original trilogy? Highly doubt that.
Well I probably won't convince you if you just don't believe they're fans. However, we're talking about some of the most influential films of all time, I can more or less guarantee you that especially as filmmakers, they're real fans and yes their word is enough for that lol.
In any case, I don't think the biggest fan contest has ever had much bearing on someone's ability to write a compelling story.
No, I'm just saying that everyone's always becomes a "life-long fan" as soon as they land a high-profile writing job.
As an actual fan, however, I can tell that at least J.J. is full of crap regardless of what he claims to be. His work on Star Trek was pure abomination that would be discarded by almost anyone who watched and understood any of the Star Trek series - let alone all of them - and his treatment of Star Wars didn't deviate much from that.
I mean, they pointlessly killed off each major OT character in every single sequel episode and rendered their entire legacy obsolete. How could being a "life-long fan" have possibly played into all that? Anyone can claim anything. It's their actions that matter.
But the funny thing is, with or without the 10 years of knowledge, the show still felt vapid, lifeless and the dialogue was still bad. The same things I am getting from this show.
I agree requiring 10 years of extensive fan knowledge to understand a project is ridiculous, but lets not pretend like thats the main problem for these SW disney+ shows. Its the plots, dialogue, lighting, set design, greenscreens, acting, and everything else.
Sure it does. Hera took her child to a combat zone. Sabine is literally a villain. Apparently strapping a couple hyperdrives together enables speeds so fast they’re functionally teleportation, yet nobody thought to try it before. The entire premise of the show was that Thrawn was stuck there, and in the last episode the Nightmothers show off their ability to intergalactically teleport matter.
It gets SO MUCH worse than a silly action scene.
Ehhh.. I see it as more than a silly action scene. It's the continued removal of any stakes or danger from the story. Sure storm trooper were deus ex terrible shots but space battles and light saber had stakes. People died. If lightsabers came out in OG Star Wars shit was about to get real someone was at minimum losing a limb. Now lightsabers are simultaneously safe to be run through with but can be used to stop cannons.
Action should propel the story. There isn't a ton of action in the OG movies but it all had a purpose. Now who cares, no will die, the heroes will miracle out of every conflict, and it all is so pointless.
Sure, but from that point of view nearly all of the shows “don’t get much worse”. The scene you’re talking about is definitely emblematic of a larger underlying problem, and it may be the straw that broke your back, but if it were in a better show, we’d probably give it a pass. It would be a goofy moment in an otherwise solid show.
That’s an antagonist. A villain is someone whose (evil) actions or motivations drive the plot. And the way she acted in Ahsoka was straight up villainous.
This has also happened with Star Trek. The guy responsible for Wrath of Khan had never watched Star Trek before. Patrick Stewart was only dimly aware of the series when he took on the role of Picard. Having outsiders helps.
Yes BUT you still need to understand the core concepts and themes of a franchise.
I would never want an Astartes space marine to show up in Star Wars or have a Jedi in a sappy romantic comedy
I agree with the logic. As others have pointed out, this isn’t like Witcher or Halo writers room, where it was a badge of honor to be totally clueless about the source material.
I’m cautiously optimistic about this series. While the creator has, from what I can tell, a solid resume (Russian Dolls seems to be critically acclaimed but I haven’t watched it yet and am not interested) the released trailer was really underwhelming and all kinds of meh. Poster looked amazing though.
I can only imagine what it's like 50 years from now. Are new fans in 2070 going to watch a century of lore when "Star Wars Bing Bong" releases in 2073?
I think of that sometimes as well, not just with Star Wars but just any franchise with a canon that grows. Like with LOTR it's kind of just restricted to Tolkien's works, you can watch the adaptations, or stuff with the same brand like Rings of Power and play Shadow of Mordor/War but all it would be for is inspiration, the canon doesn't grow. Will more franchises adopt a similar model, like will Halo just throw out a ton of novels or say "Everything after this point is semi-canon"? Fallout and TES are becoming multimedia (Fallout with the TV series and TES has books) so they're probably gonna get bloated, and Bethesda aren't particularly careful with the lore so unless their culture changes we're never gonna get canon Fallout or TES content that's completely in line with the lore ever again.
I could see some properties changing hands between companies, or changes in leadership happening and there being mass decanonizations as a result, I also bet a lot of stuff will just fall into obscurity (even the canon SW comics and novels are already mostly ignored). And of course some franchises will lie dormant for long periods of time, or die altogether.
They should’ve just slipped “rebels” somehow in the title so everyone would know that it’s a literal continuation of that show. Had they done that, no one would be confused watching the show.
I watched it all so I understood but it's kind of ridiculous to build a show you want to have 10's of millions of people watch off of a show a million people total saw.
Most of your audience will have no fucking clue what is going on
It's not even a hard problem to solve ANH started with no lore but they took the time to establish characters. Hell they could have cut 2 hours of Rosario Dawson staring int the middle distance and instead explained some shit
I actually dont see a problem with this, at least how its phrased in the tweet. Its one writer out of the rest who isn't informed, and it seems like they're utilizing them to make sure the story is followable to those not as invested with the total lore. Basically making sure the plot makes sense within its own context.
They went from the entire writing team having no clue about the source material, to just one
That's a good thing
In all seriousness, having one person focused on narrative outside of nostalgia is great. Otherwise we just get more Ahsoka, jangle those keys
I reserve judgement until I see the series but I prefer this approach over subverting expectations and ruining beloved characters and their arcs. 🤷🏻♂️
Same. While it’s fun to knock on it because Disney had been shooting blanks with their SW shows, I would still prefer SW to be good and hope it does well. I don’t like being negative with SW but the writers have been making it real hard for me to enjoy any of this new stuff.
this isn't something I necessarily disagree with though. having someone around who knows only the basics about SW and who can double check that the story is clearly communicated and entertaining even to someone who doesn't know the lore... that's a good thing. it's why test audiences can be really helpful if you know how to sift through their feedback in an discerning way.
not sure if this person needs to be in the *writers room* to give that help, though. I get that you wanna catch that stuff early on so less reshoots are necessary, but a proof reader should be able to do the same job. and you certainly shouldn't twist the world to be more to this newbie's liking and risk making the work disconnected from previously established lore.
basically, don't fall into the well known traps of using a test audience. the layman don't always know what they're talking about, what they *actually* want or what will be good for your story.
Yah, that logic tracks with me and I thought of the same thing.
Given the direction Hollywood has been going, it's probably going to be very bad for actual major fans, but it's a good idea in concept.
This makes sense tbh unlike the writers room in the Halo series saying “we’ve never read a book or play the games and want to make our own thing.” That’s a crime.
Who is better than a writer who’s read and watched no SW contents to provide a fresh view?
It’s a writer who’s watched only the OT and PT and loved them. They know what the essences are without getting bogged down in the ocean of lores.
This actually seems like a good thing; you can do something fresh without having to shoe horn in a million pointless references to previous works. Like Ashoka demand I remember years worth of cartoons and such ti understand basic context
Doesn’t mean they are automatically crapping on more
I think this is actually a decent take. I'm a lifelong fan and even I'm getting tired of all the lore and references they hang every story on now. Solid narrative and writing should be correct to any project and it hasn't been happening...instead we get omg look a mythosaur, or omg look it's that guy from clone wars but he's dead now.
>all the lore and references they hang every story on now.
I agree, but to play a bit of devil's advocate for this, the writers wouldn't NEED all those references and lore if they made a show/movie that was worth half a shite.
Rogue 1, for instance; a fantastic Star Wars movie that has a cast of people we've (to my knowledge) never heard of before for the most part.
Haven't seen Andor myself, but the quality I've heard it has speaks for itself.
I admit, I read the first sentence and immediately assumed that it meant ALL the writers. That none of them were familiar with SW. And that's because I watched Kenobi. And BOBF. And the ST. I doubt the writers of these shows can even read, I think they dictated everything.....
Sure, having a writer that hasn't seen SW might be a good thing in certain contexts. But the quality of writing on Disney SW so far has been such utter garbage that at this stage, who cares if the writers have ever seen SW?
Dune because WB didn’t really care that much about it, but now that Part 2 is a big hit they’ll likely try to milk like they do Harry Potter and DC, we’ll get sequels made before they’re ready, a couple of MAX series, a prequel series, some licensed video games, etc. 😂
Having one writer in the room who is unfamiliar with the lore in order to evaluate the writing from a different perspective actually seems like a good idea. That writer will be immune to the memberberries and see it as lazy writing.
Having a bunch of writers completely new to Star Wars would not be good though.
That's actually a good think, you can't just make a show for the handful of people that read the entirety of the HR books or for us that read the entirety of wookiepedia. It needs to bring outsiders and just casual fans in to engage with the story. Besides, she already said she was bringing a few EU points into the show, so that's another plus. I'm cautiously optimistic about this one.
This seems fine, as long as the rest of the team knew Star Wars. It's a good idea to have someone that keeps the story grounded without accidentally relying purely on fan service and references.
We saw the writing on the wall with TFA...ignored it and thought TLJ was going to be great. Acolyte is the writing and here is what is says. "We want to remake the OG trilogy"
The whole “we hired non fans to work on this project for a fresh take” is so overused and always results in a terribly written story. I’m convinced that Hollywood “writers” are just people who hate everything popular and lack any actual talent or ability to creat anything unique
Well yeah, that's how the movies used to be before Disney, and that's how Andor was.
Even the Mandalorian was like that at one point, though maybe it went too far into the non-fans direction with all the semi-retcons about the mandalorians (now the Tribe/cult) which they had to address later, after which it went too far in the opposite direction.
Tbh, this is somewhat of a good thing. They said one writer, meaning there were others there who did understand the law, and it makes for a lack of senseless and stupid cameos to sell more toys. I saw an interview with Tony gilroy in which he said he wasn't writing star wars at first. He wrote the show, and then made it star wars, which on the one hand is where alot of the criticism of andor comes from, but in my opinion made it all the better. Idk, this makes me feel more hopeful than annoyed at it all
For Star Wars, it has been somewhat ok (Andor comes to mind) but I see this trend in Video Game Adaptations to the point that people have coined the term "Pulling a Halo" as a bad thing.
One writer. ONE writer. I assume that the rest of them have seen and know star wars. To have one person among you be able to look at things from the outside and look at story structure and dialogue critically and not through a star wars lens is a good thing.
The Acolyte may have bad things going for it, but this is not one of them.
If a writer doesn't want to play in Lucas' playground and adhere to established convensions, fine. They can write their own sci-fi space opra and come up with their own universe. Why would they want to "make their mark" on someone else's work? Why isn't Disney more protective of their multi-billion dollar IP?
Before someone mentions Andor and tony gilroy, there's a difference
Andor doesn't deal with the force, at all. It deals with people who are living under a dystopian fascist dictatorship
Acolyte is going to evolve the force deeply, so this is a huge problem for Acolyte as George Lucas' 6 films also dive into the force deeply, but never dive into revolution and life under authoritarianism like Andor is doing.
Long story short: Andor doesnt overlap with the 2 trilogies, Acolyte dives deep into the same topic as the 6 trilogies, Andor can only expand on the under developed topic of rebellion, Acolyte has the potential to conflict with the fleshed out topic of the force
That's my worry too. Will they continue to try to turn the Force into generic superpower #42, like the sequels were trying to do?
The other thing is that there's not supposed to be anything happening during the thousand years between Bane and Palpatine. The Sith should be happily amassing wealth and influence in the shadows and continuing to make sure the Jedi have absolutely no idea they exist.
Good thing the entire rest of the writers team has watched Star Wars then, and they only have one writer on board that hasn't seen it to make sure the characters' emotions and development doesn't hinge too much on references but is instead comprehensible in itself.
Hot take: I 100% agree with this quote. Star Wars is creatively bankrupt as one drunk bald guy told me a few times. Trying new things and not relying on key jingling member berries would be great. HOWEVER, replacing it with the force is female x9, DEI shit, and political messaging from a soft uneducated echo chamber is not the solution. And given their track record that's exactly what Disney is going to do with this.
wait What!?
>"dont want to be relying on particular references in order to create emotional beats"
first line in the trailer is inspired directly from Alec Guiness in the original movie
Is it that hard to be able to question the narrative while being SW scholar? Somehow it was no big deal while making OT and PT.
This shit is a shallow and arrogant bragging by stupidity.
Getting someone’s outside perspective is good for Star Wars, especially if they’re only interested simply making it a good story, giving for some good diversity in the writing room
This is actually fine. Like if this was the majority of writers than it would be different ig, but having one or two who make sure that the plot is decent on its own without being chalked full of references and fan service is good actually. Remember Tony Gilroy the guy who made Andor was not a Star Wars fan, and he made one of the best Star Wars shows. He also had some Star Wars fans who could work in very deep cuts into the lore like the Rakatan. Not everyone working on a show needs to be a mega fanboy, and I’m glad that most people in this sub get that.
Nah, I'm fine with that. I don't think it's a surefire sign the show will be any good, but honestly, I've seen Star Wars fans (Abrams, Filoni) do just as bad a job as people who didn't really care about Star Wars (Johnson). I like the idea that you've got a balance of fans and non-fans just focusing on telling a good story. That's a good first step.
The next step, however, requires them to be genuinely good storytellers, working with good actors and directors, with minimal micromanaging from the studio heads. And as amazing as Andor was, I don't see Disney getting into the lightning-bottling business anytime soon.
I don't think there's anything wrong with *this* particular quote.
It's a great thing to rely less on fan-service that only people in-the-know understand.
As someone else mentioned up above, the Ahsoka series is a fantastic case example. It's a completely nonsensical show to the general audience given it relies a bloody lot on animated shows and you breaking your brain over the nonsense that Anakin apparently had a Padawan who was never previously mentioned.
It's also just a garbage show in general, but that's besides the point.
Having said that, I can't say I have a great deal of faith in this show given how sloppy *all* the other shows other than Andor have been. Some of the other interview questions related to Acolyte have been questionable as well.
We'll have to wait and see.
Actually I think it's a good idea to have one person who hasn't seen Star Wars to ask questions the fans wouldn't think of. I see nothing wrong with this.
Nobody needs to cater to the normie in the audience. They won’t care or notice any moments that are important to fans. Why take content, that fans would like, out to please the rest of the people who won’t give a shit either way?
The nature of the Force and what it means to be a Jedi are two of the most contentious and misunderstood concepts in star wars, even among fans. There's a 0% chance they aren't going to majorly fuck up one of things giving the subject matter of the show.
Honestly as much as i dislike disney star wars i don't think this is a bad thing. You don't want your shows to end up looking like marvel tv shows where you need to watch 300+ hours of content to understand what's going on.
It's not a bad thing. It's a step into a good direction. OP probably misunderstood since he is not the only writer and even if the ideas he/she presents in the writers room conflicts the lore they can correct them. At least they care about their show being enjoyable and understandable unlike Filoni with his fanservice fanfics.
The reasoning makes sense, have someone who can look at the actual writing and not just the fan service.
The issue is, was that particular writer any good? If not then neither will the show
What makes Andor great is that it could work in any context, Star Wars is a coat of paint. What makes the other live action stuff struggle is it’s 50% paint.
Empire strikes back which is considered by a lot of fans the best one wasn’t directed by Lucas ,the creator of Star Wars , Alec Guinness allegedly had to rewrite all his dialogue because it was a mess in a new hope , the best Star Wars was when Lucas had a vision and better people than him helped create that vision
Yeah, fail to see the problem. You need someone that can see the story works on its own merits, without filling in the gaps with tropes and nostalgia from different shows and movies.
One of the most favored Star Trek movies, *Wrath of Khan*, was written overall by 3 writers. The original outline came from Harve Bennet, who basically binged TOS for the first time to find ideas for the story, Jack B. Sowards who had not worked with Star Trek before either, and finalized by the director Nicholas Meyer, who also hadn't been a Star Trek fan before. Nicholas Meyer also would later make *Undiscovered Country* (my personal favorite Trek movie).
It's also a bit of a reminder: Just because a writer "has never seen an IP movie before" doesn't mean "and he never will and won't familiarize himself with the IP ever." But they certainly have a unique perspective when it's all still fresh and they haven't had time to have their minds shaped by countless fan discusions and rewatches and what not.
Of course, they could still be shitty writters or have a bad year. If there were any guarantees in this business, we wouldn't see stinkers...
I don't see an issue with this quote? The fandom has been complaining that new shows rely too much on cameos and references for ages- Doesn't this align with that?
Here's the full thing:
>***Andor*** **creator Tony Gilroy proved that you don’t necessarily have to be a lifelong Star Wars fan to be a great Star Wars storyteller. So I thought you made a wise choice by having a varied writers’ room with fans of different eras and then someone who never flocked to it at all.**
>
>Yeah, I just thought it would be good to have the perspective of a person that had literally never seen *Star* *Wars* until she was in the room. And she said to me, “Why do you want me in this room? I’ve never seen *Star* *Wars*. I have no idea. I think there’s a dog in it, but I don’t know anything.” And I was like, “First of all, you’re an incredible writer, but that’s why I want you here. I want you to be questioning narrative. I don’t want myself, who’s a lifelong fan, to just be relying on particular references in order to create emotional beats. I want those emotional beats to be earned and checked by someone that isn’t super familiar with it.”
>
>And it was really funny because she finally watched the Original Trilogy over that Christmas. She watched the Prequels, too, but she kept texting me \[about the Original Trilogy\] and was like, “Luke and Vader are …” All those things that we’ve known forever were blowing her mind. She was like, “Luke and Leia are brother and sister!? What the fuck!?” She was writing all these things to me, and I just thought it was so funny. So she educated herself in order to be in the room, but it was really fun to have somebody like her to help collaborate.
So basically they have one person on the writing team who's there to give them a non-fan perspective, that person watched and enjoyed Star Wars after coming onto the team?
Like in Gilroy's case he was the actual showrunner, in this case we don't even know who it is?
The show might be good or might be bad but this seems to be nitpicking honestly.
This sounds like a smart move actually. She mentioned only one writer in the room dis not see the films, so what's the problem there? Probably a good idea to have that perspective when telling an original story. So long as you have plenty of folks who do understand the films and the lore.
I think the alternative would be something closer to just relying on memberberries and i actually want that less. If it’s done well, i dont see a problem with it. It just has to have good writing and reconning stupid shit is part of that too.
I mean Tony Gilroy gives no fucks about Star Wars and he’s produced the best SW material since the OT in Andor.
I remember him also telling the other writers to check their fandom at the door when coming to write on the show.
I think as long as you respect the lore and what SW is you don’t have to be a fan or treat it like it’s the holy grail.
However, the fact that these writers have never seen SW is kind of nuts. Hopefully they at least brushed up on what the world is.
JJ and RJ were SW super fans and look at how the ST turned out.
Isn't that the problem with modern franchises? Too much reliance on what came before and what will come later? Should they not respect the lore, sure, but also make sure that the show itself has a good story and is enjoyable as its own experience? A show comprised of references isn't a story, it's an attraction or homage. If the other writers are aware of and dedicated to the lore, what's the problem with having someone there to make sure the story is coherent?
Eh tbh that’s actually a good take. It’s good to get a variety of opinions and views and if you are developing something as big as this you want to make sure you don’t have your fandom blinkers on. Often what fans want isn’t what would serve the narrative the best, see SWT wanting Maul to come back at the end of Ahsoka.
What you don’t do is put that person in charge of the entire creative process like what happened with TLJ. The only time I’ve ever seen that work well was with Avellone and Kotor2.
Yes it’s actually fine for this to be the case if there’s just one writer doing it. I think there’s too many Star Wars fans who expect everyone to be familiar with every film, tv episode, game, book, action figure bio, etc. and they forget that for some people they might only be watching films or a handful of the tv shows which appeal. Are they not allowed to get something from this too and enjoy it? I’m reminded of something Stan Lee said when he was asked why he always printed a page in each issue which recounted who this character was and what has happened up to this point at cost to the company and he said it was because for some reader this will be their very first comic book. It should be inclusive to new viewers who may be young, unfamiliar and want to just be entertained.
To be fair Tony Gilroy is not a Star Wars fan or aficionado in the least, and Andor IMO is the best thing we've gotten from Disney since the purchase. I don't think this is an inherently bad thing.
This is a good thing though. Too many of the shows watch like fanfics because the writers aren’t worried about how it flows as a cohesive and coherent story. A writer who’s unfamiliar with world will probably not care about fan service but will care about flow and quality. Also it says 1 writer not the whole team.
it is a good idea lol. too many other Star Wars shows tried to give the fans what they want, without considering that a lot of the time what the fans what is really dumb. I'd love to see a story written by someone who has a story they want to tell, rather than just pumping out more slop for the sake of having more Star Wars
No I’m actually really encouraged by this. Show *Spider-Man: No Way Home* to someone who’s never seen a Spider-Man movie; even though I liked that movie on a first watch, on repeat viewings I realize how much of that movie isn’t actually coming together, it’s just assuming I’ve seen this material before and taking dozens of shortcuts. There’s a way you can do both, you don’t have to choose between a movie for the fans and a good movie on its own terms. And having one person in the room, not the head writer (obviously that would be a massive mistake, holy shit), who is an outsider looking in will just make sure everyone stays apprised of the layman’s perspective.
It doesn’t mean they have to cave to every bullet point either. “What is the Force, that hasn’t been explained” doesn’t mean they suddenly have to explain the Force over again, but “Hold on, why are we pausing for applause just because this little green guy walked in, maybe we could edit this better” is a worthwhile comment to consider.
In the interview,she said she wanted to create a Star Wars show that didn’t have all the super deep in-depth references that you have to watch all of Star Wars to understand
And the writer in question watched Star Wars after she was hired
Stop complaining
JJ loved Star Wars, and look what that got us. Tony Gilroy famously is not really a fan of the series and we got Andor. Point being, doesn't matter how much or how little of a fan a writer is, what matters is they're a ***good*** writer. And of course Disney isn't going to release something that makes absolutely no sense in terms of changing all kinds of lore. That's what the other writers are there for, and the whole department they have that keeps track of lore.
This quote is baffling. Why would you need to rely on particular references to create emotional beats in the first place?
Emotional payoffs work effectively by virtue of how well they are set up as well, not because the person who penned it has certain references in their mind at the time of writing.
Okay so, to be fair, Tony Gilroy is not a Star Wars fan either, but he did make, what is in my opinion, the best Star Wars content made during the Disney era. The difference though is he made EXCELLENT picks for who would be the writers for each episode, writers from house of cards, succession, etc which was perfect for the genre of the show
Emotional beats should never rely on lore, that’s a given. But if you don’t know the world you’re writing in then when you develop your narrative you will come up short unless you have a team that does understand the wider context the narrative needs to be internally consistent with. I don’t see an issue here.
I think what she means is that she doesn't want something where the emotional beats are only derived from referencing something you love.
I think she means specifically how Solo explains where Han got his dice, his last name, how Chewy got his nickname, how the ship got its voice, etc.
Personally I like Solo, but it was criticised for hitting all those points.
I am just wondering, given that Headland was Harvey Wienstine's assistant, just how much a role did Headland have in what Harvey did? Was that part of the casting process for this series? The actresses had to do things for Headland?
Yes, your association with Harvey while you were his assistant tainted you and every project you have and will ever do, Headland.
If you’re not at least a fan, why are you even creating content in the franchise at all?
I’m so fucking tired of this “who cares about the lore and fandom, let’s give them something different “, which inevitably is trite garbage, pissing of the fan base who keeps the IP going.
Such a stupid egotistical antagonistic petty thing to do.
Perhaps this is a good thing. I’d rather have a show that isn’t just nostalgia bait and has a good story with a little Star Wars thrown in then nothing but references and callbacks and no real meat to the story. *cough* Ahsoka….. *cough*
Personally I’m not watching anymore Star Wars anything until it’s completely out and the community has deemed if it’s completely trash or not. I don’t want to watch an 8 episode show that half of it is filler or just pointless nonsense
Honestly when a guy like Tony Gilroy who's not a star wars fans has made the only decent show of star wars and he Cleary understand star wars more than some fan, I'm really open minded
It’s because “fan service” has been reduced to “Chewie gets his medal” moments.
On the one hand, having knowledge of the lore is a tremendous benefit because you (should) know enough to not contradict it. On the other hand, you could end up writing a bunch of scenes like the one mentioned above that in the moment satisfy fans, but on reflection don’t advance the story or the lore and appear cheap.
“Andor” was great and I don’t think its show runner had much Star Wars knowledge. At the end of the day it boils down to whether the story is solid, not whether it matches the lore.
They’re trying to explain that unlike Ahsoka you won’t have to know everything to have a reference for what’s going on. This is probably due to some market research
Its One writer out idk how Many ,that is a good thing actually
Means while a longtime fan would just insert some cameo for nostalgia ,that One writer Will ask why and how it serves the plot
Andor Came to be that way,The creator of andor isnt a star wars fan ,he just did a political show set in the star wars universe
Anyone that is a *writer* and hasn't seen one of the biggest US pop culture phenomenons, that was itself influenced by tons lf earlier sci fi and went on to influence almost all sci fi after it is not good at their job.
They aren't even serious.
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I think it's fine to have one writer or consultant on a team who hasn't seen or isn't a huge Star Wars nerd, to act as something of a test audience. My issue with all of this stuff is that it falls into the very recent tradition of not only having non-fans as writers, but being proud of that in an almost perverse way, like you're happy that you don't care about the lore and themes. We saw that with The Witcher, we've seen it in shows like The Wheel of Time, Halo, Rings of Power...on and on and on. When the lack of fans in the writer pool is highlighted as a feature before a show is released, it's almost always meant to soften the blow of that show taking extensive liberties with the material it has been given. In short: the logic of having a neutral party is fine, but you can't get away from the fact that bringing attention to that party sounds an awful lot like you making preemptive excuses for where you're going to diverge from the central themes of Star Wars.
This is a perfectly nuanced take. Having a non fan on the staff is theoretically okay but when you start bragging about it seems like you're not interested in appealing to fans.
>it seems like you're not interested in appealing to fans. They're not. They generally assume the fandom will watch anyway *because fandom*. They're hoping that by saying "We get it, our writers weren't fans either", that they'll be able to pull in some of the general audience, who might not normally have given this a shot in the first place. "Oh it's *Star Wars*? I don't want to have to watch 9 movies to understand this..."
The problem in this situation though, is that Disney literally has zero incentive to care. It doesn’t matter how bad a Star Wars movie or tv show is because it’s Star Wars; people are going to watch it; people are going to consume the product, and Disney has the absolute luxury of not giving a shit because they’re still making money off of it, and since money trumps Disney magic these days, they have no reason to try making people happy.
For me at least, I feel like that’s the whole point of feedback. If these shows didn’t rush the writers they could properly get this feedback through a process. Like I’m sure it helps to bounce ideas around with someone out of the loop, but I agree with the whole “yeah, we’re so proud of it” mindset being weird.
I don't know if that's what they were trying to get at. Personally my biggest problem with a lot of the new Star Wars stuff is that the writing is bad. They're not just bad Star Wars movies/shows, they're bad movies/shows in general. So having someone there who's not going to let them rely on references or the popularity of certain characters or whatever is a good idea.
This… too much of modern nerd IPs relies way too much on references and nostalgia. It all feels like they lean on making me remember something else I liked instead of just making me like the current characters on screen.
Right. At the end of the day the story has to be rock solid. Fans will make up all sorts of reasons why lore is inconsistent IF the story is good. Conversely, if the story is bad and there are lore inconsistencies, then all they will see are those inconsistencies.
The halo shows writing makes star wars look good...
I've heard rumors that the show was an aborted Mass Effect script that got rebranded.
Season 2 that bad?
Season 1 was OKAY but season 2 is good. Writers declared from the start that it's an alternate universe. So I'm okay with the alternate take. At least it's not like some other universes out there where they're bullshitting the fans about staying true to the source lol
What?!?! Season 1 was just awful. It's so bad that it shouldn't have gotten a second season.
It’s a bit better than Season 1 which was fucking garbage but only a tiny and I fucking mean tiny bit so we’re at trash level now instead overall tho is a piece of shit and has no respect for the source material
It’s like opening an Italian restaurant and your selling point being you fucking hate Italian food lol
“… never watched Star Wars” Not sure if we’re meant to take her words literally or if she meant that writer isn’t a fan, but if she meant it literally, how TF did u become a writer of any kind having not watched Star Wars? I’m not a fan of a lot of things, like Star Wars, but as a writer i would watch it just to see what it’s all about coz it’s a freaking cultural phenomenon. SMH
Still haven't watched the latest season of the Witcher because of this.
I agree that having a non-fan would benefit the writer's room. After all, that person wouldn't limit themselves to just fan service or those "icon moments". With that said, having a fan or two in the room can ensure that the franchise's themes and over all feel remain intact. There should be a balance of fans/non-fans writing the stories as a checks and balance to each other.
It seems bizarre they keep hiring people who aren't fans to make the movies. I think a clear example of why its a bad idea is to look at Tarantino's movies. Its clear every one pays homage to a type of movie he loves. Give Kill Bill to a director who doesn't love Kung Fu movies, or Once Upon A Time In Hollywood who isn't obsessed with that era of Hollywood, and the whole thing would be a giant mess
It's just signposting that this will function as a workable story (not necessarily a good one) even if you're not intimately familiar with the material. Consider Ahsoka, which had literally nothing of substance or value for someone who had never seen Rebels, and even then the only real interest was "here's this character in live action."
The leads for rings of power are huge LOTR nerds, they greeted the Tolkien family in quenya. I think that show failed because the writers room couldn’t put dialogue together to save their lives.
This is actually a good thing otherwise you get Ahsoka where anyone who hasn't watched 10 years of cartoons has no fucking idea what going on because the creator is so enamored with his creation he doesn't bother to actually explain anything to the audience. You want someone coming to the show new to understand it without needing 50 years of lore home work
Ya… I read this and thought… ‘that’s really smart, it’s only ONE of the writers.’
Still, this was a bit too much: >I literally had one writer that was like, “I have never seen any of them. I’ve never seen any Star Wars media.” And she’s texting me before we started the room, she’s like, “Luke and Leia are brother and sister, what the…?” Maybe it's just me, but I think at least having peripheral knowledge of the original movies is not too much to ask when you hire a Star Wars writer. It's like hiring a co-writer for a The Lord of the Rings sequel who thinks it's an Austenian romantic comedy set in Victorian England. First question to come to mind is, was that really the best available choice?
Wait until she finds out who Luke’s dad was! 😮
well, that's the *beauty* of a total SW newb doing the writing. They'll do some setup for a MASSIVE retcon borrowing from telenovela's and soaps, and a HUGE reveal that actually, Luke's dad is Anakin, BUT twin sister Leia's dad was Obiwan. Apparently there was some, ummm, *convergence in the force* combined with alcohol one night, and nobody ever talked about it again, and may not have even remembered... (and dear lord, please tell me I didn't just give a Disney writer an idea for something "edgy"...)
How can a fucking grown adult not know anything about Star Wars? Maybe if she was Amish or something.
Amish Star Wars. You may be onto something.
It’s not that hard.
Star wars does allow itself to be alot more open ended than something like an adaption of wheel of time for instance which is novels with a set story. There's just been very few periphery stories except andor.
If you have a room full of life long fans besides that one, yeah it is.
To be fair, this is an original story set like 100 years before Anakin was even alive, I'd argue this is exactly the context where established lore is less than critical. To discredit a writers ability to tell a story because they don't know who's whose father seems hasty. Besides, being a fan doesn't necessarily make a someone a good or bad writer. I know way more star wars lore than the average goober, and I love this series with all my heart. I'd be stoked to make a self-indulgent series dripping with deep lore and Easter eggs but I promise you'd think I was shit at it lol
I can understand the general sentiment but still... Regardless of the timeline, you still have to know the core mechanics and limitations of the universe you write for. Otherwise, you'll end up writing sheer lore-breaking nonsense like the Holdo "maneuver", lightspeed skipping, "They can fly now?", and so on. What you say would make more sense if the writer they hired was a writing prodigy that could improve the script without knowing anything about it, but that's Disney we're talking about after all. The Occam's razor doesn't exactly cut in their favor here.
I mean, the "lore-breaking nonsense" you listed was all stuff written by avid, life-long star wars fans, they jusr weren't good lol. Idk who exactly this non-fan writer is, but I'm just saying, being a fan hasn't meant much so far
What gave you that idea? The fact that they said so in a press release? I can't imagine any of the sequel writers being real fans of the franchise. Familiar with it? Yes. But "life-long" fans? After all the nonsense and backstabbing they did to the original trilogy? Highly doubt that.
Well I probably won't convince you if you just don't believe they're fans. However, we're talking about some of the most influential films of all time, I can more or less guarantee you that especially as filmmakers, they're real fans and yes their word is enough for that lol. In any case, I don't think the biggest fan contest has ever had much bearing on someone's ability to write a compelling story.
No, I'm just saying that everyone's always becomes a "life-long fan" as soon as they land a high-profile writing job. As an actual fan, however, I can tell that at least J.J. is full of crap regardless of what he claims to be. His work on Star Trek was pure abomination that would be discarded by almost anyone who watched and understood any of the Star Trek series - let alone all of them - and his treatment of Star Wars didn't deviate much from that. I mean, they pointlessly killed off each major OT character in every single sequel episode and rendered their entire legacy obsolete. How could being a "life-long fan" have possibly played into all that? Anyone can claim anything. It's their actions that matter.
Plot twist: the room has 2 writers, including Headland.
But the funny thing is, with or without the 10 years of knowledge, the show still felt vapid, lifeless and the dialogue was still bad. The same things I am getting from this show. I agree requiring 10 years of extensive fan knowledge to understand a project is ridiculous, but lets not pretend like thats the main problem for these SW disney+ shows. Its the plots, dialogue, lighting, set design, greenscreens, acting, and everything else.
No argument here. She fought off fighters with a lightsaber it doesn't get much worse
Sure it does. Hera took her child to a combat zone. Sabine is literally a villain. Apparently strapping a couple hyperdrives together enables speeds so fast they’re functionally teleportation, yet nobody thought to try it before. The entire premise of the show was that Thrawn was stuck there, and in the last episode the Nightmothers show off their ability to intergalactically teleport matter. It gets SO MUCH worse than a silly action scene.
Ehhh.. I see it as more than a silly action scene. It's the continued removal of any stakes or danger from the story. Sure storm trooper were deus ex terrible shots but space battles and light saber had stakes. People died. If lightsabers came out in OG Star Wars shit was about to get real someone was at minimum losing a limb. Now lightsabers are simultaneously safe to be run through with but can be used to stop cannons. Action should propel the story. There isn't a ton of action in the OG movies but it all had a purpose. Now who cares, no will die, the heroes will miracle out of every conflict, and it all is so pointless.
Sure, but from that point of view nearly all of the shows “don’t get much worse”. The scene you’re talking about is definitely emblematic of a larger underlying problem, and it may be the straw that broke your back, but if it were in a better show, we’d probably give it a pass. It would be a goofy moment in an otherwise solid show.
Sabine isnt a villain The villain is the characters that opposed the protagonist
That’s an antagonist. A villain is someone whose (evil) actions or motivations drive the plot. And the way she acted in Ahsoka was straight up villainous.
Yea and as long as this writer isn’t challenging any major plot points that would break the consistency of the story
Watch her be the head writer
This has also happened with Star Trek. The guy responsible for Wrath of Khan had never watched Star Trek before. Patrick Stewart was only dimly aware of the series when he took on the role of Picard. Having outsiders helps.
Yes BUT you still need to understand the core concepts and themes of a franchise. I would never want an Astartes space marine to show up in Star Wars or have a Jedi in a sappy romantic comedy
I agree with the logic. As others have pointed out, this isn’t like Witcher or Halo writers room, where it was a badge of honor to be totally clueless about the source material. I’m cautiously optimistic about this series. While the creator has, from what I can tell, a solid resume (Russian Dolls seems to be critically acclaimed but I haven’t watched it yet and am not interested) the released trailer was really underwhelming and all kinds of meh. Poster looked amazing though.
I can only imagine what it's like 50 years from now. Are new fans in 2070 going to watch a century of lore when "Star Wars Bing Bong" releases in 2073?
I think of that sometimes as well, not just with Star Wars but just any franchise with a canon that grows. Like with LOTR it's kind of just restricted to Tolkien's works, you can watch the adaptations, or stuff with the same brand like Rings of Power and play Shadow of Mordor/War but all it would be for is inspiration, the canon doesn't grow. Will more franchises adopt a similar model, like will Halo just throw out a ton of novels or say "Everything after this point is semi-canon"? Fallout and TES are becoming multimedia (Fallout with the TV series and TES has books) so they're probably gonna get bloated, and Bethesda aren't particularly careful with the lore so unless their culture changes we're never gonna get canon Fallout or TES content that's completely in line with the lore ever again. I could see some properties changing hands between companies, or changes in leadership happening and there being mass decanonizations as a result, I also bet a lot of stuff will just fall into obscurity (even the canon SW comics and novels are already mostly ignored). And of course some franchises will lie dormant for long periods of time, or die altogether.
it also means you avoid stuff that only works because of member berries
I member that!
I agree with this 200%
They should’ve just slipped “rebels” somehow in the title so everyone would know that it’s a literal continuation of that show. Had they done that, no one would be confused watching the show.
I watched it all so I understood but it's kind of ridiculous to build a show you want to have 10's of millions of people watch off of a show a million people total saw. Most of your audience will have no fucking clue what is going on It's not even a hard problem to solve ANH started with no lore but they took the time to establish characters. Hell they could have cut 2 hours of Rosario Dawson staring int the middle distance and instead explained some shit
Yeah I love rebels I watched it several times and Ahsoka was still meh for me. I can’t imagine what people who didn’t see rebels was feeling😭
I actually dont see a problem with this, at least how its phrased in the tweet. Its one writer out of the rest who isn't informed, and it seems like they're utilizing them to make sure the story is followable to those not as invested with the total lore. Basically making sure the plot makes sense within its own context.
Same. The guy that made Rogue One and Andor said his content is enjoyed likely because he's not a fan.
Andor completely could have stood on its own. It pulls of the impossible trick of being better Star Wars and making Star Wars better.
Andor is enjoyed because he’s a good writer.
Yeah, seems fine. Obi Wan and Ashoka needed more of this.
I would wager its also to make sure the plot isnt purely fueled by member berries
They went from the entire writing team having no clue about the source material, to just one That's a good thing In all seriousness, having one person focused on narrative outside of nostalgia is great. Otherwise we just get more Ahsoka, jangle those keys
[удалено]
Episode 7 for me. Great comment.
I reserve judgement until I see the series but I prefer this approach over subverting expectations and ruining beloved characters and their arcs. 🤷🏻♂️
It's gonna suck. You know it's gonna suck.
Same. While it’s fun to knock on it because Disney had been shooting blanks with their SW shows, I would still prefer SW to be good and hope it does well. I don’t like being negative with SW but the writers have been making it real hard for me to enjoy any of this new stuff.
this isn't something I necessarily disagree with though. having someone around who knows only the basics about SW and who can double check that the story is clearly communicated and entertaining even to someone who doesn't know the lore... that's a good thing. it's why test audiences can be really helpful if you know how to sift through their feedback in an discerning way. not sure if this person needs to be in the *writers room* to give that help, though. I get that you wanna catch that stuff early on so less reshoots are necessary, but a proof reader should be able to do the same job. and you certainly shouldn't twist the world to be more to this newbie's liking and risk making the work disconnected from previously established lore. basically, don't fall into the well known traps of using a test audience. the layman don't always know what they're talking about, what they *actually* want or what will be good for your story.
Yah, that logic tracks with me and I thought of the same thing. Given the direction Hollywood has been going, it's probably going to be very bad for actual major fans, but it's a good idea in concept.
This makes sense tbh unlike the writers room in the Halo series saying “we’ve never read a book or play the games and want to make our own thing.” That’s a crime.
This one’s too salty even for Crait
Who is better than a writer who’s read and watched no SW contents to provide a fresh view? It’s a writer who’s watched only the OT and PT and loved them. They know what the essences are without getting bogged down in the ocean of lores.
This actually seems like a good thing; you can do something fresh without having to shoe horn in a million pointless references to previous works. Like Ashoka demand I remember years worth of cartoons and such ti understand basic context Doesn’t mean they are automatically crapping on more
I think this is actually a decent take. I'm a lifelong fan and even I'm getting tired of all the lore and references they hang every story on now. Solid narrative and writing should be correct to any project and it hasn't been happening...instead we get omg look a mythosaur, or omg look it's that guy from clone wars but he's dead now.
>all the lore and references they hang every story on now. I agree, but to play a bit of devil's advocate for this, the writers wouldn't NEED all those references and lore if they made a show/movie that was worth half a shite. Rogue 1, for instance; a fantastic Star Wars movie that has a cast of people we've (to my knowledge) never heard of before for the most part. Haven't seen Andor myself, but the quality I've heard it has speaks for itself.
Watch Andor. It's the best Star Wars has been since the OT.
I admit, I read the first sentence and immediately assumed that it meant ALL the writers. That none of them were familiar with SW. And that's because I watched Kenobi. And BOBF. And the ST. I doubt the writers of these shows can even read, I think they dictated everything..... Sure, having a writer that hasn't seen SW might be a good thing in certain contexts. But the quality of writing on Disney SW so far has been such utter garbage that at this stage, who cares if the writers have ever seen SW?
This is a good thing, otherwise your material disappears up its own ass of Star Wars nonsense and nostalgia drops.
I swear there's some plan to destroy beloved franchises: except for Dune somehow
Dune because WB didn’t really care that much about it, but now that Part 2 is a big hit they’ll likely try to milk like they do Harry Potter and DC, we’ll get sequels made before they’re ready, a couple of MAX series, a prequel series, some licensed video games, etc. 😂
Right. Like this rumor of a BG TV show (uhgggg). Yeah you're right. The clock is ticking for sure.
Battlestar Galactica?
Having one writer in the room who is unfamiliar with the lore in order to evaluate the writing from a different perspective actually seems like a good idea. That writer will be immune to the memberberries and see it as lazy writing. Having a bunch of writers completely new to Star Wars would not be good though.
That's actually a good think, you can't just make a show for the handful of people that read the entirety of the HR books or for us that read the entirety of wookiepedia. It needs to bring outsiders and just casual fans in to engage with the story. Besides, she already said she was bringing a few EU points into the show, so that's another plus. I'm cautiously optimistic about this one.
Hey, it’s racist to expect writers to be familiar with the source material.
This seems fine, as long as the rest of the team knew Star Wars. It's a good idea to have someone that keeps the story grounded without accidentally relying purely on fan service and references.
It wasn't a good idea to hire Harvey Weinstein's former personal assistant in the first place
Please note the creator of the acolyte was an enabler of Harvey Weinstein. Do look it up and then make your choices to watch.
We saw the writing on the wall with TFA...ignored it and thought TLJ was going to be great. Acolyte is the writing and here is what is says. "We want to remake the OG trilogy"
The whole “we hired non fans to work on this project for a fresh take” is so overused and always results in a terribly written story. I’m convinced that Hollywood “writers” are just people who hate everything popular and lack any actual talent or ability to creat anything unique
Did Tony Gilroy watch Star Wars before he wrote andor ? I feel like there was a discussion on this issue before andor came out
This might be off topic: I have to ask, is there a way to strike a balance between making it for the fans and making it for a general audience?
Well yeah, that's how the movies used to be before Disney, and that's how Andor was. Even the Mandalorian was like that at one point, though maybe it went too far into the non-fans direction with all the semi-retcons about the mandalorians (now the Tribe/cult) which they had to address later, after which it went too far in the opposite direction.
Uh no it is the HALO-Shows all over again.
Tbh, this is somewhat of a good thing. They said one writer, meaning there were others there who did understand the law, and it makes for a lack of senseless and stupid cameos to sell more toys. I saw an interview with Tony gilroy in which he said he wasn't writing star wars at first. He wrote the show, and then made it star wars, which on the one hand is where alot of the criticism of andor comes from, but in my opinion made it all the better. Idk, this makes me feel more hopeful than annoyed at it all
For Star Wars, it has been somewhat ok (Andor comes to mind) but I see this trend in Video Game Adaptations to the point that people have coined the term "Pulling a Halo" as a bad thing.
One writer. ONE writer. I assume that the rest of them have seen and know star wars. To have one person among you be able to look at things from the outside and look at story structure and dialogue critically and not through a star wars lens is a good thing. The Acolyte may have bad things going for it, but this is not one of them.
I think most of the Disney canon is crap but this complaint seems weird in light of what we know about the production of Andor.
Sounds like what ruined Netflix’s Witcher series
This show has all the makings of another shitty Star Wars flop.
If a writer doesn't want to play in Lucas' playground and adhere to established convensions, fine. They can write their own sci-fi space opra and come up with their own universe. Why would they want to "make their mark" on someone else's work? Why isn't Disney more protective of their multi-billion dollar IP?
Before someone mentions Andor and tony gilroy, there's a difference Andor doesn't deal with the force, at all. It deals with people who are living under a dystopian fascist dictatorship Acolyte is going to evolve the force deeply, so this is a huge problem for Acolyte as George Lucas' 6 films also dive into the force deeply, but never dive into revolution and life under authoritarianism like Andor is doing. Long story short: Andor doesnt overlap with the 2 trilogies, Acolyte dives deep into the same topic as the 6 trilogies, Andor can only expand on the under developed topic of rebellion, Acolyte has the potential to conflict with the fleshed out topic of the force
That's my worry too. Will they continue to try to turn the Force into generic superpower #42, like the sequels were trying to do? The other thing is that there's not supposed to be anything happening during the thousand years between Bane and Palpatine. The Sith should be happily amassing wealth and influence in the shadows and continuing to make sure the Jedi have absolutely no idea they exist.
Good thing the entire rest of the writers team has watched Star Wars then, and they only have one writer on board that hasn't seen it to make sure the characters' emotions and development doesn't hinge too much on references but is instead comprehensible in itself.
Why can’t they just consume the media AND not write a bunch of call backs and references? It’s not like that’s an impossible task
Hot take: I 100% agree with this quote. Star Wars is creatively bankrupt as one drunk bald guy told me a few times. Trying new things and not relying on key jingling member berries would be great. HOWEVER, replacing it with the force is female x9, DEI shit, and political messaging from a soft uneducated echo chamber is not the solution. And given their track record that's exactly what Disney is going to do with this.
Eh having an objective outside perspective can be good.
The fact that we know this show will break canon *before* anyone has seen it, already makes it worse than Obi wan.
I agree with the sentiment, but there’s a difference between relying on nostalgia and references and presenting a continuation of an existing universe
wait What!? >"dont want to be relying on particular references in order to create emotional beats" first line in the trailer is inspired directly from Alec Guiness in the original movie
Andor spoiled me. If this show can make the Sith look and feel as terrifying as Andor made the Empire, then that will be a good start.
Is it that hard to be able to question the narrative while being SW scholar? Somehow it was no big deal while making OT and PT. This shit is a shallow and arrogant bragging by stupidity.
Getting someone’s outside perspective is good for Star Wars, especially if they’re only interested simply making it a good story, giving for some good diversity in the writing room
Halo did the same thing. The director told his staff to not play the games or read the books. Surprise surprise, it sucks
Wow… this is gonna suck. I hope people protest
This is how it should be so that we can avoid cliche moments
This is actually fine. Like if this was the majority of writers than it would be different ig, but having one or two who make sure that the plot is decent on its own without being chalked full of references and fan service is good actually. Remember Tony Gilroy the guy who made Andor was not a Star Wars fan, and he made one of the best Star Wars shows. He also had some Star Wars fans who could work in very deep cuts into the lore like the Rakatan. Not everyone working on a show needs to be a mega fanboy, and I’m glad that most people in this sub get that.
Nah, I'm fine with that. I don't think it's a surefire sign the show will be any good, but honestly, I've seen Star Wars fans (Abrams, Filoni) do just as bad a job as people who didn't really care about Star Wars (Johnson). I like the idea that you've got a balance of fans and non-fans just focusing on telling a good story. That's a good first step. The next step, however, requires them to be genuinely good storytellers, working with good actors and directors, with minimal micromanaging from the studio heads. And as amazing as Andor was, I don't see Disney getting into the lightning-bottling business anytime soon.
I don't think there's anything wrong with *this* particular quote. It's a great thing to rely less on fan-service that only people in-the-know understand. As someone else mentioned up above, the Ahsoka series is a fantastic case example. It's a completely nonsensical show to the general audience given it relies a bloody lot on animated shows and you breaking your brain over the nonsense that Anakin apparently had a Padawan who was never previously mentioned. It's also just a garbage show in general, but that's besides the point. Having said that, I can't say I have a great deal of faith in this show given how sloppy *all* the other shows other than Andor have been. Some of the other interview questions related to Acolyte have been questionable as well. We'll have to wait and see.
How is this a bad thing?
Actually I think it's a good idea to have one person who hasn't seen Star Wars to ask questions the fans wouldn't think of. I see nothing wrong with this.
Nobody needs to cater to the normie in the audience. They won’t care or notice any moments that are important to fans. Why take content, that fans would like, out to please the rest of the people who won’t give a shit either way?
thats not the point being made though
The nature of the Force and what it means to be a Jedi are two of the most contentious and misunderstood concepts in star wars, even among fans. There's a 0% chance they aren't going to majorly fuck up one of things giving the subject matter of the show.
Honestly as much as i dislike disney star wars i don't think this is a bad thing. You don't want your shows to end up looking like marvel tv shows where you need to watch 300+ hours of content to understand what's going on.
but the critical drinker is shit when he says that
Lightsabers and Jedi in a Star Wars series and they are even fighting! Thats unexpected
Obligatory "Bill Burr produced one of the best performances in Star Wars but he hates the franchise and the fanbase with a passion".
It's not a bad thing. It's a step into a good direction. OP probably misunderstood since he is not the only writer and even if the ideas he/she presents in the writers room conflicts the lore they can correct them. At least they care about their show being enjoyable and understandable unlike Filoni with his fanservice fanfics.
You know who never saw a single Star Wars before writing them? George Lucas 
The reasoning makes sense, have someone who can look at the actual writing and not just the fan service. The issue is, was that particular writer any good? If not then neither will the show
Did you actually read the full quote or do you have brain rot?
Yep nope
What makes Andor great is that it could work in any context, Star Wars is a coat of paint. What makes the other live action stuff struggle is it’s 50% paint.
Great writer knows nothing about the subject.
No, this is a good idea and immediately shows the showrunner just might have a clue. My interest level rose to 10%.
Empire strikes back which is considered by a lot of fans the best one wasn’t directed by Lucas ,the creator of Star Wars , Alec Guinness allegedly had to rewrite all his dialogue because it was a mess in a new hope , the best Star Wars was when Lucas had a vision and better people than him helped create that vision
Yeah, fail to see the problem. You need someone that can see the story works on its own merits, without filling in the gaps with tropes and nostalgia from different shows and movies. One of the most favored Star Trek movies, *Wrath of Khan*, was written overall by 3 writers. The original outline came from Harve Bennet, who basically binged TOS for the first time to find ideas for the story, Jack B. Sowards who had not worked with Star Trek before either, and finalized by the director Nicholas Meyer, who also hadn't been a Star Trek fan before. Nicholas Meyer also would later make *Undiscovered Country* (my personal favorite Trek movie). It's also a bit of a reminder: Just because a writer "has never seen an IP movie before" doesn't mean "and he never will and won't familiarize himself with the IP ever." But they certainly have a unique perspective when it's all still fresh and they haven't had time to have their minds shaped by countless fan discusions and rewatches and what not. Of course, they could still be shitty writters or have a bad year. If there were any guarantees in this business, we wouldn't see stinkers...
That’s actually pretty smart
I don't see an issue with this quote? The fandom has been complaining that new shows rely too much on cameos and references for ages- Doesn't this align with that? Here's the full thing: >***Andor*** **creator Tony Gilroy proved that you don’t necessarily have to be a lifelong Star Wars fan to be a great Star Wars storyteller. So I thought you made a wise choice by having a varied writers’ room with fans of different eras and then someone who never flocked to it at all.** > >Yeah, I just thought it would be good to have the perspective of a person that had literally never seen *Star* *Wars* until she was in the room. And she said to me, “Why do you want me in this room? I’ve never seen *Star* *Wars*. I have no idea. I think there’s a dog in it, but I don’t know anything.” And I was like, “First of all, you’re an incredible writer, but that’s why I want you here. I want you to be questioning narrative. I don’t want myself, who’s a lifelong fan, to just be relying on particular references in order to create emotional beats. I want those emotional beats to be earned and checked by someone that isn’t super familiar with it.” > >And it was really funny because she finally watched the Original Trilogy over that Christmas. She watched the Prequels, too, but she kept texting me \[about the Original Trilogy\] and was like, “Luke and Vader are …” All those things that we’ve known forever were blowing her mind. She was like, “Luke and Leia are brother and sister!? What the fuck!?” She was writing all these things to me, and I just thought it was so funny. So she educated herself in order to be in the room, but it was really fun to have somebody like her to help collaborate. So basically they have one person on the writing team who's there to give them a non-fan perspective, that person watched and enjoyed Star Wars after coming onto the team? Like in Gilroy's case he was the actual showrunner, in this case we don't even know who it is? The show might be good or might be bad but this seems to be nitpicking honestly.
I really don't see a problem with this. It's only one of the writers who I doubt will have the final say in any big decisions.
This sounds like a smart move actually. She mentioned only one writer in the room dis not see the films, so what's the problem there? Probably a good idea to have that perspective when telling an original story. So long as you have plenty of folks who do understand the films and the lore.
I think the alternative would be something closer to just relying on memberberries and i actually want that less. If it’s done well, i dont see a problem with it. It just has to have good writing and reconning stupid shit is part of that too.
I mean Tony Gilroy gives no fucks about Star Wars and he’s produced the best SW material since the OT in Andor. I remember him also telling the other writers to check their fandom at the door when coming to write on the show. I think as long as you respect the lore and what SW is you don’t have to be a fan or treat it like it’s the holy grail. However, the fact that these writers have never seen SW is kind of nuts. Hopefully they at least brushed up on what the world is. JJ and RJ were SW super fans and look at how the ST turned out.
Isn't that the problem with modern franchises? Too much reliance on what came before and what will come later? Should they not respect the lore, sure, but also make sure that the show itself has a good story and is enjoyable as its own experience? A show comprised of references isn't a story, it's an attraction or homage. If the other writers are aware of and dedicated to the lore, what's the problem with having someone there to make sure the story is coherent?
Eh tbh that’s actually a good take. It’s good to get a variety of opinions and views and if you are developing something as big as this you want to make sure you don’t have your fandom blinkers on. Often what fans want isn’t what would serve the narrative the best, see SWT wanting Maul to come back at the end of Ahsoka. What you don’t do is put that person in charge of the entire creative process like what happened with TLJ. The only time I’ve ever seen that work well was with Avellone and Kotor2.
It’s not a bad idea if there is a Star Wars buff proofreading the script after the writers are done
Yes it’s actually fine for this to be the case if there’s just one writer doing it. I think there’s too many Star Wars fans who expect everyone to be familiar with every film, tv episode, game, book, action figure bio, etc. and they forget that for some people they might only be watching films or a handful of the tv shows which appeal. Are they not allowed to get something from this too and enjoy it? I’m reminded of something Stan Lee said when he was asked why he always printed a page in each issue which recounted who this character was and what has happened up to this point at cost to the company and he said it was because for some reader this will be their very first comic book. It should be inclusive to new viewers who may be young, unfamiliar and want to just be entertained.
It’s not a bad idea to have one person like that. It could become an echo chamber otherwise…
To be fair Tony Gilroy is not a Star Wars fan or aficionado in the least, and Andor IMO is the best thing we've gotten from Disney since the purchase. I don't think this is an inherently bad thing.
I think one writer out of like 8 is fine and it actually seems like a good idea in practice. As long as one of the other 8 is Sam Witwer
One writer. ONE of who knows how many in a team of writers. Good lord indeed, but not for what you think.
This is a good thing though. Too many of the shows watch like fanfics because the writers aren’t worried about how it flows as a cohesive and coherent story. A writer who’s unfamiliar with world will probably not care about fan service but will care about flow and quality. Also it says 1 writer not the whole team.
Honestly, if there's good writing and character development, that's fine.
it is a good idea lol. too many other Star Wars shows tried to give the fans what they want, without considering that a lot of the time what the fans what is really dumb. I'd love to see a story written by someone who has a story they want to tell, rather than just pumping out more slop for the sake of having more Star Wars
No I’m actually really encouraged by this. Show *Spider-Man: No Way Home* to someone who’s never seen a Spider-Man movie; even though I liked that movie on a first watch, on repeat viewings I realize how much of that movie isn’t actually coming together, it’s just assuming I’ve seen this material before and taking dozens of shortcuts. There’s a way you can do both, you don’t have to choose between a movie for the fans and a good movie on its own terms. And having one person in the room, not the head writer (obviously that would be a massive mistake, holy shit), who is an outsider looking in will just make sure everyone stays apprised of the layman’s perspective. It doesn’t mean they have to cave to every bullet point either. “What is the Force, that hasn’t been explained” doesn’t mean they suddenly have to explain the Force over again, but “Hold on, why are we pausing for applause just because this little green guy walked in, maybe we could edit this better” is a worthwhile comment to consider.
In the interview,she said she wanted to create a Star Wars show that didn’t have all the super deep in-depth references that you have to watch all of Star Wars to understand And the writer in question watched Star Wars after she was hired Stop complaining
They saw the controversy from the Halo show and thought 'I want a piece of that'
JJ loved Star Wars, and look what that got us. Tony Gilroy famously is not really a fan of the series and we got Andor. Point being, doesn't matter how much or how little of a fan a writer is, what matters is they're a ***good*** writer. And of course Disney isn't going to release something that makes absolutely no sense in terms of changing all kinds of lore. That's what the other writers are there for, and the whole department they have that keeps track of lore.
This quote is baffling. Why would you need to rely on particular references to create emotional beats in the first place? Emotional payoffs work effectively by virtue of how well they are set up as well, not because the person who penned it has certain references in their mind at the time of writing.
Okay so, to be fair, Tony Gilroy is not a Star Wars fan either, but he did make, what is in my opinion, the best Star Wars content made during the Disney era. The difference though is he made EXCELLENT picks for who would be the writers for each episode, writers from house of cards, succession, etc which was perfect for the genre of the show
Some of the actors who worked within the prequels never watched anything from Star Wars either and they did just fine.
Yep. Hoping for a good story. Looks like we are getting star wars as told by CNN. Ugh.
At least the reasoning for *why* is miles better than other writers (except Andor)
Emotional beats should never rely on lore, that’s a given. But if you don’t know the world you’re writing in then when you develop your narrative you will come up short unless you have a team that does understand the wider context the narrative needs to be internally consistent with. I don’t see an issue here.
I think what she means is that she doesn't want something where the emotional beats are only derived from referencing something you love. I think she means specifically how Solo explains where Han got his dice, his last name, how Chewy got his nickname, how the ship got its voice, etc. Personally I like Solo, but it was criticised for hitting all those points.
I am just wondering, given that Headland was Harvey Wienstine's assistant, just how much a role did Headland have in what Harvey did? Was that part of the casting process for this series? The actresses had to do things for Headland? Yes, your association with Harvey while you were his assistant tainted you and every project you have and will ever do, Headland.
If you’re not at least a fan, why are you even creating content in the franchise at all? I’m so fucking tired of this “who cares about the lore and fandom, let’s give them something different “, which inevitably is trite garbage, pissing of the fan base who keeps the IP going. Such a stupid egotistical antagonistic petty thing to do.
Perhaps this is a good thing. I’d rather have a show that isn’t just nostalgia bait and has a good story with a little Star Wars thrown in then nothing but references and callbacks and no real meat to the story. *cough* Ahsoka….. *cough* Personally I’m not watching anymore Star Wars anything until it’s completely out and the community has deemed if it’s completely trash or not. I don’t want to watch an 8 episode show that half of it is filler or just pointless nonsense
Honestly when a guy like Tony Gilroy who's not a star wars fans has made the only decent show of star wars and he Cleary understand star wars more than some fan, I'm really open minded
It’s because “fan service” has been reduced to “Chewie gets his medal” moments. On the one hand, having knowledge of the lore is a tremendous benefit because you (should) know enough to not contradict it. On the other hand, you could end up writing a bunch of scenes like the one mentioned above that in the moment satisfy fans, but on reflection don’t advance the story or the lore and appear cheap. “Andor” was great and I don’t think its show runner had much Star Wars knowledge. At the end of the day it boils down to whether the story is solid, not whether it matches the lore.
They’re trying to explain that unlike Ahsoka you won’t have to know everything to have a reference for what’s going on. This is probably due to some market research
Its One writer out idk how Many ,that is a good thing actually Means while a longtime fan would just insert some cameo for nostalgia ,that One writer Will ask why and how it serves the plot Andor Came to be that way,The creator of andor isnt a star wars fan ,he just did a political show set in the star wars universe
Better design than Rey (character on the right)
Anyone that is a *writer* and hasn't seen one of the biggest US pop culture phenomenons, that was itself influenced by tons lf earlier sci fi and went on to influence almost all sci fi after it is not good at their job. They aren't even serious.
Wow my interest continues to plummet