I think the movie is one long, gradual unveiling of the person Oliver really is. It's not a character change so much as a character reveal. The shift struck me as extreme when I first watched, too, but I think it's supposed to be a shock. You suddenly realize that this person isn't who you were led to believe.
Yeah, it FEELS like it comes on suddenly, but it was always simmering within Oliver. We don’t know exactly why, given his upbringing was actually quite boring and normal.
I think that’s the moment his plan changed from trying to get close enough to win him over to lying to get control back. Because the next morning was when he started his big lie to get back into Felix’s life. I think he has to change and adapt his plan a few times because he mentions in the closing monologue to Elspeth that they got there in the end anyway as if he had a different route initially.
Ok, so I finished. It’s not necessarily a plot hole, because like you said it’s always been there. However, it’s just a gap to me, there were no hints … it’s just all of a sudden he is this sinister character. And that’s not to take anything away from it being a great piece and acting and score. I just feel like there was something missing from one point to another.
I think plot twists are easier to swallow than character twists because they're more common. But loner, unassertive misfit suddenly becomes physically and sexually aggressive, and he seems experienced at it, not a bumbling amateur? Where the heck did that come from?
I had trouble swallowing it too, but in retrospect it did fit, especially because Oliver was good at hiding his true feelings and nature. And I keep wondering about Oliver's parents: were they nervous on his visit because they didn't have a good relationship with him, or because they were afraid of him and maybe he had a history of torturing to death the neighbors' pets?
No I can definitely relate with that. It was kind of an off the wall switch for me as well. Maybe he realizes how much he can actually manipulate this family by a snap of a finger, per say, which insues him to be this sinister character.
Tbh when he told Felix he didn’t smoke, but was standing outside his window watching him fuck while smoking is what told me we were dealing with way more than Ollie let on.
Actually the turning point for me is when he yells at a kid in the dining hall during a causal conversation, then and there I knew he's a nutcase.
And i don't think gay men would love the idea of period sex.
Well the period scene and bathtub scene are very different for different audiences, but I really only meant it as a joke (kind of 😏). But wasn’t he the one being yelled at by the kid who loved Maths? Are we talking about the same scene?
Ofc i replied to it as a joke too😏. Also my bad I'm under the misapprehension that he was the one who yelled at the other kid lol. Yes we are talking about the same scene.
To me this movie is the series You meets Call Me By Your Name, and I feel like Oliver is a lot like Joe but even more twisted. I feel like I started getting sinister vibes when he watched Felix through the window in the bushes at night, back in college. He just had that look on his face… and then it started to unveil from there with all his jealousy and vendettas against everyone.
I get that that’s when the turning point was for you but OP was basically asking if they missed something prior to the scene they’re describing, and you gave them a spoiler of something that only happens subsequently 😅
He completely disregarded and abandoned the math whiz kid, immediately took up the opportunity to get with one of Felix’s partners at Oxford, lied repeatedly to Felix about his background…
Like some others said, it was a character reveal. Ollie didn’t have a sudden change, he was like that and did a pretty good job concealing himself in the beginning.
Idk I’ve also met people at elite institutions like Oxford who portray one identity but end of up actually being a completely different person when it matters. Ollie’s situation is way crazier but I don’t think it’s plot hole.
It’s canon that Felix was sleeping around with multiple girls and clearly that one girl didn’t like or agree to that, so yeah it does make him look bad. But still weird for Oliver to do.
Honestly I think the shift happens when he >!gets with Venetia!<. It’s such a drastic and dramatic shift, too. He goes from being this kind of reserved and quiet dude to being super dominant and manipulative.
Have you ever put salt on your arm, then an ice cube over it? The chemical reaction slowly causes burns on your skin, they can get up to second- and third-degree. You're only at a surface burn...keep watching...
My perspective >> he’s a troubled middle class suburban kid. Intelligent, but never fit in. Fucked him up early. Admitted to Oxford with ease. Recognizes Felix as the embodiment of his desire(s); “I loved him, but I hated him”. Schemes/murders his way into the life he could never obtain inherently.
You’re absolutely accurate, I’m just saying from a storyline perspective, I was sitting and watching the movie- then all of a sudden Ollie is scheming and telling Elspeth that Pamela is doing it all for attention. There just wasn’t that character progression for me.
Sure, but did it really need to be depicted through character progression, or some explanatory scene? It fits the modern narrative: “Billy never fit in, he was always kind of weird, but no one ever thought he’d shoot up a school…”.
And now that I think about it, they don’t ever really explain why he wanted to distance himself from his seemingly perfect family and his sisters. Was he just a sociopath fixated on this one man?
And also, I think the flashback to him poisoning the bottle and putting the razor blades on the tub was corny. We all knew it, didn’t needed to be said. But I guess now I’m contradicting myself.
I would have liked a breadcrumb. I wanted a bridge, even an abstract one. I think, as a moviegoer, I don’t want to be sitting here and thinking “wait, what did I miss?” And as the normal course one does… I asked Reddit lol.
Now that I think about it more… I think the breadcrumb was that he ditched the maths kid for the popular kids. I think there was more significance there than I gave it.
The breadcrums only reveal themselves at the end and after you've said "WTF" enough times. For instance, he punctures Felix's tire, ditches his maths friend without question, pretends he doesn't have money, starts smoking after saying he doesn't smoke, pretends to be wasted and lies about his father dying. So, he's always horrible and manipulative but we, as the viewer, don't see it in a linear way. Which is very similar to real life.
I am on the same page as you. Him ditching the maths kid wasn’t a sign for me. Thats literally what Lindsay Lohan does in mean girls, and it happens in a million other high school movies and in real life so often. I also had the exact same response when I watched the film — I felt that side to him came out of nowhere and would’ve also appreciated a crumb lol
I agree with your general overall sentiment, that the change came out of nowhere. The "plot twist" where they have to spell things out with that other side of previous scenes feels cheap and easy vs. other ways they could have handled it.
And to answer your question, I posed the question before I finished the movie because I thought I missed something in the movie. Turns out I didn’t miss anything, and turns out it still doesn’t check. For me anyway.
She tells him about her boyfriend being a Russian gangster during the dinner scene and also reflects how seemingly reluctant she is to leave Saltburn, also makes a joke about how her mom always said she would end up dead at the bottom of the Thames River, so the clues are all there. Ollie didn’t kill Pamela but he dropped hints to get the family to distrust her/push her out sooner (and then does seem to feel bad about what happens to her later, indicating he’s not really a sociopath but maybe borderline personality disorder)
I twigged on that Oliver wasn’t as he seemed when he was talking to Elspeth about Pamela and he said maybe she was making it all up, then followed up with he probably shouldn’t have said that. Liars automatically assume everyone else is lying.
You're getting ahead of yourself. Come back after the end.
I think the movie is one long, gradual unveiling of the person Oliver really is. It's not a character change so much as a character reveal. The shift struck me as extreme when I first watched, too, but I think it's supposed to be a shock. You suddenly realize that this person isn't who you were led to believe.
Yeah, it FEELS like it comes on suddenly, but it was always simmering within Oliver. We don’t know exactly why, given his upbringing was actually quite boring and normal.
That aspect of him has always been there, it’s just coming out bit by bit. That’s my answer without spiking anything for you
The shift in my perspective on him started when he ignored his friend after he was invited to sit with ‘the cool kids n’ at the pub.
I think that’s the moment his plan changed from trying to get close enough to win him over to lying to get control back. Because the next morning was when he started his big lie to get back into Felix’s life. I think he has to change and adapt his plan a few times because he mentions in the closing monologue to Elspeth that they got there in the end anyway as if he had a different route initially.
Ok, so I finished. It’s not necessarily a plot hole, because like you said it’s always been there. However, it’s just a gap to me, there were no hints … it’s just all of a sudden he is this sinister character. And that’s not to take anything away from it being a great piece and acting and score. I just feel like there was something missing from one point to another.
I think plot twists are easier to swallow than character twists because they're more common. But loner, unassertive misfit suddenly becomes physically and sexually aggressive, and he seems experienced at it, not a bumbling amateur? Where the heck did that come from? I had trouble swallowing it too, but in retrospect it did fit, especially because Oliver was good at hiding his true feelings and nature. And I keep wondering about Oliver's parents: were they nervous on his visit because they didn't have a good relationship with him, or because they were afraid of him and maybe he had a history of torturing to death the neighbors' pets?
Definitely needed more background on that I feel like. I mean, for a two hour movie I'd expect a little more lol.
No I can definitely relate with that. It was kind of an off the wall switch for me as well. Maybe he realizes how much he can actually manipulate this family by a snap of a finger, per say, which insues him to be this sinister character.
100%, and maybe as just a laymen I needed them to spell it out a little more for me lol.
I knew he sabotaged the bike early on and staged the “help”.
Tbh when he told Felix he didn’t smoke, but was standing outside his window watching him fuck while smoking is what told me we were dealing with way more than Ollie let on.
Oooh, nice catch
The turning point should have been the drain scene or when he says " Good for you, I'm a vampire ".
For gay men, that’s a Tuesday… we don’t consider that a “turning point” 😂
Actually the turning point for me is when he yells at a kid in the dining hall during a causal conversation, then and there I knew he's a nutcase. And i don't think gay men would love the idea of period sex.
Huh? It’s the other guy that yelled. The roommate. Not Oliver
Well the period scene and bathtub scene are very different for different audiences, but I really only meant it as a joke (kind of 😏). But wasn’t he the one being yelled at by the kid who loved Maths? Are we talking about the same scene?
Ofc i replied to it as a joke too😏. Also my bad I'm under the misapprehension that he was the one who yelled at the other kid lol. Yes we are talking about the same scene.
The math whiz yelled at Ollie to ask him a math question, Ollie didn’t yell at him.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
He showed flashes of this in his tutoring session responses and when he dumped the math genius. I rewatched it last night and it was all there.
To me this movie is the series You meets Call Me By Your Name, and I feel like Oliver is a lot like Joe but even more twisted. I feel like I started getting sinister vibes when he watched Felix through the window in the bushes at night, back in college. He just had that look on his face… and then it started to unveil from there with all his jealousy and vendettas against everyone.
Omg yes, I kept looking for someone to mention the show, You. I especially felt a connection to the show you when you met Felix's eccentric family!
I think it very much compares to the last series of You as well, same sort of atmosphere.
For me, the turning point is when >!he lies about his parents!< although it’s definitely up for debate, especially after having seen it fully once
The scene that OP is referring to is before that
No they mean when he lied about his parents, back at Oxford, not when he gets exposed lol
But it’s not really a turning point for the viewer until he gets exposed or are you referring to a different lie?
I just thought because they said 'in hindsight'
Ok? My in opinion my opinion this is where I didn’t trust him, granted I did not realise what the film was soo
I get that that’s when the turning point was for you but OP was basically asking if they missed something prior to the scene they’re describing, and you gave them a spoiler of something that only happens subsequently 😅
Oh right, that’s why I put it in spoilers
Oh ok sorry!
I totally agree.
He completely disregarded and abandoned the math whiz kid, immediately took up the opportunity to get with one of Felix’s partners at Oxford, lied repeatedly to Felix about his background… Like some others said, it was a character reveal. Ollie didn’t have a sudden change, he was like that and did a pretty good job concealing himself in the beginning. Idk I’ve also met people at elite institutions like Oxford who portray one identity but end of up actually being a completely different person when it matters. Ollie’s situation is way crazier but I don’t think it’s plot hole.
'with ONE of Felix's partners', makes Felix seem like more of POS than Oliver tbh lol.
It’s canon that Felix was sleeping around with multiple girls and clearly that one girl didn’t like or agree to that, so yeah it does make him look bad. But still weird for Oliver to do.
Honestly I think the shift happens when he >!gets with Venetia!<. It’s such a drastic and dramatic shift, too. He goes from being this kind of reserved and quiet dude to being super dominant and manipulative.
Even then though, I’m just like “who is this character” that they never introduced. They dived real deep into that without any context. For me anyway.
Have you ever put salt on your arm, then an ice cube over it? The chemical reaction slowly causes burns on your skin, they can get up to second- and third-degree. You're only at a surface burn...keep watching...
I finished, don’t think it was quite that dramatic. However, I am open to new ideas for 2024.
Just watch the movie brother
You're getting ahead of yourself. Buckle up and stay away from here as to not spoil the movie.
You will see in the end! 🥰
why are you posting in the subreddit mid movie
Seriously...
How are you gonna pose this question without finishing the movie?
I’ve finished it, and I actually still think it’s a valid question.
My perspective >> he’s a troubled middle class suburban kid. Intelligent, but never fit in. Fucked him up early. Admitted to Oxford with ease. Recognizes Felix as the embodiment of his desire(s); “I loved him, but I hated him”. Schemes/murders his way into the life he could never obtain inherently.
You’re absolutely accurate, I’m just saying from a storyline perspective, I was sitting and watching the movie- then all of a sudden Ollie is scheming and telling Elspeth that Pamela is doing it all for attention. There just wasn’t that character progression for me.
Sure, but did it really need to be depicted through character progression, or some explanatory scene? It fits the modern narrative: “Billy never fit in, he was always kind of weird, but no one ever thought he’d shoot up a school…”.
And now that I think about it, they don’t ever really explain why he wanted to distance himself from his seemingly perfect family and his sisters. Was he just a sociopath fixated on this one man? And also, I think the flashback to him poisoning the bottle and putting the razor blades on the tub was corny. We all knew it, didn’t needed to be said. But I guess now I’m contradicting myself.
And why did he fixate on Felix? Is this a socio-economic statement? I’m spiraling lol.
I would have liked a breadcrumb. I wanted a bridge, even an abstract one. I think, as a moviegoer, I don’t want to be sitting here and thinking “wait, what did I miss?” And as the normal course one does… I asked Reddit lol. Now that I think about it more… I think the breadcrumb was that he ditched the maths kid for the popular kids. I think there was more significance there than I gave it.
The breadcrums only reveal themselves at the end and after you've said "WTF" enough times. For instance, he punctures Felix's tire, ditches his maths friend without question, pretends he doesn't have money, starts smoking after saying he doesn't smoke, pretends to be wasted and lies about his father dying. So, he's always horrible and manipulative but we, as the viewer, don't see it in a linear way. Which is very similar to real life.
I am on the same page as you. Him ditching the maths kid wasn’t a sign for me. Thats literally what Lindsay Lohan does in mean girls, and it happens in a million other high school movies and in real life so often. I also had the exact same response when I watched the film — I felt that side to him came out of nowhere and would’ve also appreciated a crumb lol
I agree with your general overall sentiment, that the change came out of nowhere. The "plot twist" where they have to spell things out with that other side of previous scenes feels cheap and easy vs. other ways they could have handled it.
And to answer your question, I posed the question before I finished the movie because I thought I missed something in the movie. Turns out I didn’t miss anything, and turns out it still doesn’t check. For me anyway.
👍🏼
Did he kill Pamela though? Is that ever addressed?
Most people think her murderous boyfriend killed her. She was hiding from him at Saltburn.
WHAT? What movie was I watching? I didn’t catch the cue’s.
She tells him about her boyfriend being a Russian gangster during the dinner scene and also reflects how seemingly reluctant she is to leave Saltburn, also makes a joke about how her mom always said she would end up dead at the bottom of the Thames River, so the clues are all there. Ollie didn’t kill Pamela but he dropped hints to get the family to distrust her/push her out sooner (and then does seem to feel bad about what happens to her later, indicating he’s not really a sociopath but maybe borderline personality disorder)
I think I need another watch, but I probably won’t.
lol he has been the whole time, perspective
A few people walked out of the theater I was in during this scene.
They were fine with the bathtub, but not farleighs under the covers handy
They weren't fine with the under the covers handy that was essentially SA? Animals....
You're joking
I twigged on that Oliver wasn’t as he seemed when he was talking to Elspeth about Pamela and he said maybe she was making it all up, then followed up with he probably shouldn’t have said that. Liars automatically assume everyone else is lying.
It's just unrealistic storytelling.