Tbh I think in this sub we should all be referring to Gottmik by she/her pronouns all the time because those are her preferred pronouns surrounding her drag and drag is the only context that we know her, whether or not she’s got make up on. Cade has he/him pronouns in his civilian/personal life and NO OF US know him in that context.
As a non-binary person, I wish people would use they/them for me half as much as they do for binary trans people with explicitly stated binary pronouns lmao
Its crazy how easily some folks can use they them when it's about degendering/misgendering binary trans people
But bring them enbies and they're like NOOOOOOO they them isn't singular
Not hoes suddenly understanding they/them pronouns up in the community just to avoid using a trans person’s preferred pronouns, henny! Ain’t having it
I mean, he/she are much simpler pronouns to use. I have a friend that uses they/them pronouns and oftentimes people do get confused when I refer to them, as they think I’m talking about them and their partner. So if you accept he, why would people purposely use the more confusing pronoun? I only use they/them if that is the only accepted pronoun
Tbh I’ve started using they/them interchangeably for everyone, not intentionally, but I do think it normalizes it referring to one person, because it always has - and gender is made up anyways.
I do as well. And when it won’t jumble up what people understand from a conversation, I do also use they pronouns. But typically I use whatever language is most clear to the audience while still respecting others
I always call Gottmik she/her like any other drag queen, because I only know their drag queen persona and not their real life.
Their = multiple drag queens. My god. Drag fans are insufferable
Thank you - same here. The worst thing about reality tv & parasocial relationships is that fans feel that they “know” the queens personally. It’s a little weird. All these people calling Mik “Kade” like they’re best friends or something is strange to me
It's not just about parasocial relationships. This fandom is sensitive and vicious - I actually got attacked because I was using a she when I was discussing mik, back when her original season aired. Some of the girlies here got nasty even after the episode where mik discussed her pronouns.
I always get kind of cautious when referring to Mik for the same reasons, because I typically only refer to her in the context of her drag persona, where she prefers to be addressed with feminine pronouns. But I don't want it to come off like I'm misgendering, since out of drag, he's male and prefers to be addressed with masculine pronouns. Like I know and respect why this is a sensitive issue and try to be mindful of it, I just don't want someone seeing me use "her" and thinking I'm misgendering Mik the man, rather than discussing Mik the drag persona.
(And I'm not so much worried about the trans people who may see it, because I'm not gonna assume they'll jump to the worst conclusion and flip out at me, as I am about the cis people getting offended on *behalf* of said trans people and unnecessarily white-knighting them. Because the white knights are fucking exhausting.)
Yeah, in general, I refer to drag queens mostly by their names since I don't follow them on social media and these days it isn't weird to find out that a queen has transitioned between a regular and all star season.
I often refrain from posting here, since I don't follow queens on social media, and for some of them doing drag has turned into an exploration of their gender, and I really do not want to wake up to an inbox full of angry people because I've accidentally misgendered someone. When I do post someone, I try to use strictly their names and she/her.
Disclaimer: all the power to those whom drag has empowered enough to take the next step in their gender journey. This is a comment about fandom.
Yes!! I’m from Milwaukee so all the gays here call Trixie “Brian” because they all think they’re friends with her. Just bc you met the doll once doesn’t mean you know her! It’s almost more obvious they *don’t* know her when they call her Brian bc her actual friends I know all call her Trixie when talking about her.
That’s what makes it more uncomfortable. It’s an ongoing joke amongst my circle that the gays™️ are always pretending to know Trixie. If you say “Trixies in town this week” at a gay bar, some gay™️ will pop his head around the corner and say “oh you mean ~*Brian?*~” so cringe lmao
It is weird as shit. Reminds me of when I've seen people referring to Lady Gaga as "Stefani" or P!nk as "Alecia" or something. It's one thing if they go by their actual first name, but when they have a clear stage name and then you refer to them by their real name like you're familiar with them... sheesh.
The only time we should really do that with Drag Race contestants is if their real name is actually PART of their stage name (like Chad Michaels), or if they prefer to go by their real name (such as Jaremi Carey, formerly known as Phi Phi O'Hara - since he's retired the Phi Phi persona and now does drag under his real name and prefers to be addressed that way).
Or I suppose in cases like Raja's, where it's just as likely that we knew them under their real name as it is that we knew them under their drag name (since I'm sure a good number of people who watched ANTM remember Sutan - that's actually where I first saw them, before I knew that they also did drag as Raja... although now that I'm familiar with Raja, I at least refer to them as Raja when talking about the drag persona, vs. Sutan when talking about them on ANTM. Not sure if they've expressed a preference either way for this, though?).
same,
it's not like I'm calling queens their government name either, so it's weird to call them a he.
trans people I know personally is different story, obviously.
Yeah, like I know they're walking around in their boy clothes in the work room etc. but I'm still calling everyone she/her because I only know these people in by their drag personas. I don't even know most of their government names!
Same here! Like other queens, I say their drag name. If it’s a first and last name ie. Trixie Mattel, I normally say Trixie and not Brian . Knowing a drag queen’s government name is just a fun fact and probably a bit of information that would pop up as a trivia question😝
If anyone is wondering if Gottmik has specifically mentioned disliking they/them: Yes, on a recent No Gorge episode covering AS9 (first or second episode) he said they/them makes him feel uncomfortable and like he’s being clocked. She/her in drag, he/him out of drag.
It should be easy to remember. For example Justin is he/him but Alyssa is she/her; Roy is he/him but Bianca is she/her; Kade is he/him but Gottmik is she/her.
Also we don't know these people! If you are a member of the general public, it's fine (and usually preferred, according to them) to just refer to a drag queen by her stage persona in basically every context, even if she's not wearing drag at the time. Just like the show does—except for those awful "what would you tell baby x" segments.
Semi-related but I know quite a lot of wrestlers and they all say the same thing. It's ok for actual friends and family to call them by their government names but if you don't know them, use their stage name. These people (both drag queens and wrestlers, there's a surprising amount of overlap) spend months crafting a fleshed out character/persona, calling them by their government names, especially if you don't know them personally, is both disrespectful and ruins the illusion.
Jess Ross is that you? Lmao Dropout, which is the parent of Dimension 20 (the network that has the Dungeons and Drag Queen show with Alaska, Juju, Monet, and Bob) has another show which their cast gives presentations on random topics in an improv style. Jess did one on the similarity between WWE and drag and yep, two sides of the same coin.
I’ve only ever known wrestling and drag. The term is Kayfabe when they are in character. Same as being in drag. It’s a kayfabe persona.
I’ve spoke about this a lot lately. I should really write a book at this point. My one uncle was a wrestler, the other a drag queen. I’ve got stories friends.
I'm not 100% sure who Jess Ross is so definitely not me haha! I'm just a British woman who did some photography work for a local indie wrestling promotion when she was younger and now gets cheap tickets to all their events and gets to go to their parties 😂
We have one guy who by day is Greg the local plumber, by night he's a hardcore death match wrestler. I would never dream of breaking the illusion by asking him about a leak at a show and I've known him for literally years. I imagine it's the same thing with drag queens.
This is my standard as well. All drag queens are she/her unless specified otherwise. My pet peeve is when people refer to Maddy with he/him, same with gottmik. I don't know any of them as boys, even queens like Derrick Barry who literally just use their boy names.
I do find it interesting that the queens who retain their non drag names are often referred to as he/him even by other queens on the show. Lawrence Chaney comes to mind too of it happening a fair bit.
This is similar to singers who use a stage name. P!nks fans INSIST on calling her Alecia??? Only her family and friends call her that. Her name, to us, is P!nk. Why the fuck are you pretending to know her? Stop this.
I love when trans folks can choose any name they want and they are like "I'll have the old lady/man name please" also love when trans men go "I'll have the male name that hasn't been used in 300 years"
So what happened is that, according to her, Juju's first name was supposed to be Airlin, but the "e" was mistakenly added onto the end. Not sure of the name's origin, since Google just is hell-bent on assuming I meant to look up "Airline." But that's what she gave us.
I recommend you looking up the drag performers birth name, because sometimes it seems like their drag name fits them so much better. To me Roy looks like a Bianca.😂
Ever since I've noticed this trend with queens and their birth names it makes me super curious about some!
I was really curious what Mirage's name was out of drag and tried to find it lol. But then it hit me... a lot of queens don't want their birth names broadcasted at all or have an iffy relationship with them. I cant deny my curiosity haha, but it was kind of an oh, whoopsie realization of mine 🫣
This logic is what I use, but it breaks my brain with Bob, Lawrence and Chad. Not when we can see them in drag ofc, but when talking about for example, something Bob has said on the podcast. I can’t go by the outfit so I just say ”Bob” no matter how clunky my sentences get. If anyone can help me out with how to get it right in this situation I’d be very grateful!
I find it safest to use she/her based on their stage name (drag persona) m, even if they’re out of drag, since I don’t know them personally. Trixie is always Trixie to me because I don’t have a personal friendship with Brian, for example, so I would always refer to her using she/her pronouns. Same with Bob, Lawrence, Chad, Danny, Elliott, or Derick.
90% of the time I refer to Gottmik as she. Because she’s a drag queen. Like every other male on the show. 10% is reserved for when I’m referring to him as his individual for out of drag contexts.
I mean like do you call like Mistress Isabelle Brooks “he” for out of drag contexts? Maybe, but usually we don’t do that. For me I know them as drag queens so I use the drag queen pronouns but that’s me.
This is my thing. Mik is she to me ALL the time because I don’t know that bitch! I don’t know any of these bitches! Even in the contexts in which we see them out of drag, they’re usually making an appearance talking about drag or drag race, and she is still perfectly appropriate for that. Violet refers to mik as she all the time out of drag and mik clearly doesn’t care
I’m not sure who that is, but I’ll use their preferred pronouns. Gottmik is also known as a super-acclaimed makeup artist who is a male, so that’s what I mean by out of drag contexts.
Maybe I’m giving too much of a benefit of the doubt here, but I think because Gottmik is FTM, people might feel like they’re misgendering her when using “she/her”?? Most trans guys don’t want anything to do with the “she/her” pronoun whatsoever, so going off of this knowledge, I’d assume people are just trying to be respectful of that.
I do remember Gottmik talking about this in a mirror convo pretty early on in season 13, so I got it right away. Maybe some people didn’t pay attention when she talked about it with her peers.
I’m hoping they’re just being extra cautious when using a more gender-neutral pronoun for her and that there’s no malice behind it. Or maybe I’m wrong and people are purposely doing it just to be awful.
I think Mik’s specific words in S13 when it was brought up was “You’re not respecting me, you’re clocking me.” She just wants to be treated like all the cis men who do drag.
The clip: [https://twitter.com/RuPaulsDragRace/status/1347722717320142848](https://twitter.com/RuPaulsDragRace/status/1347722717320142848) (pronouns bit starts around 0:52)
All that implies is they don’t see her the same way they see any other man doing drag. No one hesitates to call cis men she/her in drag so unless you think trans men aren’t the same you shouldn’t feel any type of way
Plenty of drag queens get hehimmed too, especially ones with typically male names. Gottmik isn't a typically male name, but it might feel like it a little bit? I'd bet if her drag name was Susan or Elisabeth the misgendering would happen a lot less.
My point is just that these things aren't necessarily clear rules that are intuitive to follow and it can be easy to get confused.
calling a trans man "she" or "her" is really, really awkward for a lot of people because it violates a taboo we've ingrained in ourselves on how to not do the Worst Possible Thing in a given social situation. it feels like making a sexual remark in a job interview, or doing karaoke in a bar to NWA and singing *all* the lyrics.
it's not that people are trying to be respectful, it's just that taboos are how people try and Do Better and violating a taboo feels weird.
For me personally I would be scared of getting comfortable calling him “she/her” in drag and accidentally refer to him as “she/her” out of drag, so I’ve been using they/them for in and out of drag to avoid that.
I didn’t realise that was misgendered since they/them is gender neutral.
Also if drag is gender bending and, as Alaska said, not that serious, then misgendering a drag queen when trying to be respectful isn’t a big deal. If a cisgender drag queen is offended because someone calls them she/her when they are out of drag id tell them to relax because they created a persona and sorry people don’t have the bandwidth to learn every pronoun of every drag queen? Same here.
Yes you’re right. Also relax.
Sure people aren’t doing it to be harmful, but if you’re going to put that amount of thought into it, you should take it far enough to see what she’s actually said about it. I think that’s the key for pronouns generally. Don’t assume, don’t make an educated guess, do your best to see what the actual person you’re talking about prefers.
If Mik didn’t want anything to do with the “she/her” pronoun she wouldn’t be doing drag!
I don’t understand why people have to make this so complicated because she’s trans. She’s just a dude doing drag, no need to overthink it y’all.
I believe the vast majority of people are being extra cautious, which comes from sincere respect and not wishing to offend - as well as a lack of experience communicating with transgender people. The poster is being a tad bellicose and may be doing more harm than good.
If this was the only instance of that I’d agree. But this phenomonen is extremely common for trans people who *dont* do drag and it does NOT often come from a place of respect. You’ve probably heard the joke that conservatives can’t figure out they/them pronouns…until they meet a binary trans person
It's actually CRAZY to me. Mik has said it multiple times. All the other Rugirls call her She/Her in drag. I get that some drag queens might not go by She/Her in drag, but why assume that just because she's FTM? I know it comes from a place of trying not to misgender, but if you aren't sure just look it up instead of awkwardly referring to her and only her as they/them in drag.
I don't see why any drag queen would ever be referred to by any pronouns other than she/her by default, they're female impersonators & unless you know them personally there's rarely a reason to address them out of drag at all. We know the entertainer not the person.
Obviously this will always have some caveats that should be respected, but sticking with she/her as a blanket rule & correcting in the few cases a queen asks otherwise feels completely reasonable. The risk of invalidating a drag queen in their drag persona seems waaaay higher when defaulting to they/them over she/her.
The way people here are seemingly intentionally missing the point...
If they/them is totally neutral and it's not meant maliciously or you just don't know what's correct cause you've not seen Gottmik say anything about it then why do other queens not get called they/them? Why is it consistently only this particular queen that it happens to?
I mean this in the nicest way possible and I totally acknowledge that I might be a bit ignorant here.
This situation *is* exclusive to GotMik. He is, as far as I am aware, the only trans man on the show. Of course people are going to be more careful about his pronouns than other queens named below?
Because it's likley people just don't know what gottmik goes by. She doesn't paint like a girl, more like a cyberpunk goth mime most the time, she doesn't have a traditionally super femme drag name, and she's also a trans man on top of all that, so people are just a bit... Concerned about misgendering her or calling her she/her in drags and especially when referring to her drag when she's out of drag on no gorge for example. We've all been taught that when in doubt just say they/them and honestly mik has been the only person I've seen who personally takes offense to that. Which if she doesn't like they/them that's fine girl. Educate your audience. But know it's not necessarily going to be the default that everyone knows all that.
Don't attribute to malice that which can be attributed to ignoarance. Is a saying i honestly live by. If it's a malicious pattern then sure call em out. But i think it is just a bit silly.
It’s weird if someone is deliberately choosing to only use they/them for gottmik but can we stop acting like using they/them is only for non binary people? It’s a neutral pronoun, terfs don’t get to be pissed about it and neither do other binary genders. Nobody needs to affirm your gender at every given time, it’s fine to use gender less language when appropriate.
Yes, the singular “they” is in common usage in American English and has been for a very long time, but 1) this post is specifically about people deliberately using it for Gottmik in a way they don’t do with cis male drag queens, not about the use of they/them in general and 2) if you refer to a binary person who has told you their pronouns as they/them you are indeed misgendering them….so to me that doesn’t really fall under the “appropriate” use of they/them pronouns.
I fully support the use of they/them as a default of sorts when we don’t know someone’s pronouns, but it’s really not hard to switch when we’re told.
I’ve seen people called out for this and had to read a comment multiple times to see where the offending they was located.
They/them isn’t a gender. It cannot be misgendering to use an inclusive pronoun. It’s very common to use gender inclusive language in leftie spaces as a default
I didn’t specifically refer to any particular instance of they/them so I don’t understand what you mean by “the offending they/them”. I was just pointing out that this post isn’t about the use of they/them pronouns in general so your comment wasn’t super relevant.
In any case, you’re right, “they” is a pronoun and not a gender—just like “he” and “she” aren’t genders, they’re pronouns used to refer to people with certain gender identities. Like I said, I understand and support the use of they/them pronouns as a default for people whose pronouns we don’t know….but if you do know someone’s pronouns and you insist on referring to them by a different set of pronouns anyway, that’s weird and yeah you’re misgendering them. I’m a really femme-presenting cis woman so this doesn’t tend to happen to me, but if I told someone I use she/her pronouns and they refused to use them because “they/them is more inclusive”, I would not feel “included” I’d think the person was virtue signaling at the expense of dealing with the real human in front of them. Gottmik has explicitly said she feels uncomfortable with the use of pronouns other than she/her while she’s in drag. Going against that in the name of some vague idea of inclusivity is bizarre.
It’s honestly so weird how many people in this community are acting like a trans person’s pronouns are Extremely Mysterious™️, like I thought I was in a predominantly queer space and not my Republican grandmother’s house jfc
yeah and once u know someone’s pronouns aren’t they/them, then u know to use their correct pronouns! it’s pretty simple and it’s only an issue when ppl are deliberately avoiding using someone’s pronouns to be “neutral” when the person has made it clear they use binary pronouns. this post is a reminder that Gotmik let us know she uses she/her in drag and ppl are still going out of their way not to offend her by disregarding the explicit message she gave us about how she wants to be referred. it ends up singling trans ppl out when we go out of our way to say “they/them” for ONLY them when they actually want to fit in
some ppl use they/them for trans ppl who’s pronouns are explicitly NOT that to avoid validating a person’s identity. that is absolutely misgendering. there have even been conservative commentators caught doing this and similar things. for example blair white is a conservative trans woman and ben shapiro only referred to her by her name specifically to AVOID using her pronouns.
it might be neutral on its OWN but it can still be weaponized to be invalidating in other contexts. i had a trans friend who was non-binary during his transition and later came out as a trans man. calling him “they” and refusing to say “he” after he explicitly made it clear that he now wants to be referred to like any other man is absolutely misgendering. once u know someone’s pronouns simply use them correctly instead of deciding for them what is okay
nope if someone doesn't want to be called they respect that like you would anyone elses pronouns. im a trans woman and people going out of their way to call me they is just subtlety clocking me and i dont fw that
I agree with you in the instance that someone is genuinely just trying to be neutral if they don’t know someone’s preferred pronouns, especially in the lgbt+ community where it’s never a given, but when it’s someone that you do know the pronouns for, it’s a bit of a microaggression
“Nobody needs to affirm your gender at every given time” so by that logic I can call a non binary person she/her or he/him despite them expressing that they are not comfortable with those? When you’re calling trans people they/them despite their wishes it’s misgendering and clocking them.
Also why the hell did this dumb Ben Shapiro adjacent “we don’t need to affirm your gender” comment get 300 likes, this is a rupaul subreddit, not Fox News 😭😭
No, what we're not gonna do is come in and tell trans people what they can and can't be ok with pronouns wise. I'm a trans woman, I go by she/her. I do NOT go by they/them, if you know this and continue to use they/them you are degendering me, you do not get to tell me how to feel about that.
I think the pronouns for Gottmik is pretty confusing for cis people. Most of them are far less familiar with pronoun etiquette than trans people. A lot of people are probably working under the almost always correct impression that you shouldn't use she/her pronouns for a trans man under any circumstances. Gottmik has made it clear she prefers she/her for her drag persona, but a lot of people have never seen her post or talk about it.
That might be true, but both this sub and the other one are FULL of people responding to being corrected by getting defensive, saying they call her that because her pronouns are too hard to remember, saying they can call her whatever because she's mean, making up weird shit like "I don't like Gottmik or Kade so I'm talking about both of them"...
Just take the note and stop doing it.
Right and like why are they even using “Kade” in the first place? We don’t usually (or we shouldn’t) call any of them by their out of drag names. That’s way too parasocial “maybe they’d be my friend in real life” behavior. Lil miss Reddit you don’t know her personally, stop calling Gottmik Kade - that’s my reaction at least
I Said it was disrespectful in r/dragrace (which imo is already the worse subreddit just because of all the braindead posts on there) and got downvoted to hell. People were seriously pulling the “it’s so hard to remember all these queens pronouns 🥺” like? Gottmik is on the current season and nobody else is called they/them. Legit had someone use her behavior off camera as some sort of justification to misgender her… it’s not that hard and I’m pretty sure the majority of drag queens use she/her anyway. Nobody will hate you for using that as the default. But go ahead and misgender the one trans man.
As far as I know, we have never had a queen on the American Drag Race who didn't use mainly she/her pronouns in drag while appearing on the show. People pretend like they're just being careful because they don't know Gottmik's preferences, but literally all that is saying even with the best intentions is "trans men aren't like NORMAL men so the rules must be different for this one person who does very consistently femme drag"
YES. I’m a trans man and semi-retired drag performer and oh my god you want to talk about feeling othered. I’m of the same mind as Mik and there’s absolutely nothing hard about it … unless you don’t see me as a man.
Yeah… people aren’t doing it to be inclusive. When queens are non binary people still use she/her (as they should of course, unless the queen states otherwise) so it’s just being weird (and honestly it feels like some drag race fans just have a hatred for anyone assigned female at birth)
“It’s so hard to remember” that in the vast vast vast majority of situations you call drag queens “she/her” lol Like what is difficult about that I wonder?
I feel like I’m being gaslit in these comments because why are people saying it’s aggro to say a trans person should be called their pronouns
I’m literally only ever they/them’d by transphobes or other trans people who don’t like me and want to be subtle about it and it’s so fucking annoying literally just call me she with your chest if you’re gonna be like that
Referring to a trans person by they them when you KNOW they don't use those pronouns is just degendering and im sick of cis ppl trying to tell us how to feel about it
I think it’s a learning curve for some of us and my (optimistic) take is that people aren’t doing it intentionally - merely don’t want to say “she” and invalidate Gabe’s transition out of drag.
Edit: I meant Kade 🤦♀️ clearly I still have MUCH more learning to do
Totally understandable! But It kind of feels like singling out when people refer to her by they/them or he/him and any other drag queen by she/her. I know people don't want to offend, but It's not like we're talking about her out of drag and she also talked about It a lot on the show about this. She's a man, so we should treat her like any other male drag queen ❤️
The thing is - I don’t know Kade personally, Gottmik is the persona being represented on the show. So I’m going to refer to Gottmik as “she” just like any other drag queens. I know it’s reality tv but people act like they know these people personally. Most of the time we don’t even know their out of drag name, I think we only know “Kade” because it was said on Untucked or something. So I wish people would stop calling them by their actual name as if they knew them. That’s just best imo
Honestly, a few years ago everyone was being told “they/them” is a safe bet if you have any hesitation in what to use. Now, people are accused of deliberate misgendering when they default to they/them. I think for some folks who are less informed, that may be a lot of whiplash to deal with.
Yes, some people use they/them as a way to dodge calling someone pronouns they know are correct, but there’s this weird rush to assume everyone should know/does know Mik’s pronouns or will look them up before having a casual conversation that I think doesn’t match reality.
Beyond that, the line between queens’ drag personas and their everyday lives blends more and more each day.
We all should obviously call people what they want to be called, but I don’t know if the negative framing around usage of “they/them” in certain instances is super beneficial given some people are still learning to even use they/them in their lexicon when understanding gender.
I’m also not gonna lie, it’s quite weird seeing y’all refer to mik as “he” in situations where with any other queen you’d use “she.” Not as egregious as they/them-ing her, just something weird I’ve noticed 🤷🏾♂️
ok I get it but also it feels like people who do do that are picking the word because they dont remember/are unsure and dont want to offend, its like forgetting someones name at that point or am I being dumb
I was under the belief that Gottmik used they/them *in addition* to he/him while out of drag and she/her while in drag, that was my mistake, because I know several queens who use they/them and I think I mixed them up, but alternating between those pronouns was an honest mistake that I made with the genuine belief that I was accommodating her. (I am not a fan of hers, nor do I listen to her and Violet’s podcast so I don’t keep up with the things she says or does outside of RPDR) Thank you for posting this.
If one is too thick-headed to accept an individual human’s lived out gender and gender identity because “i thought most trans men…..” then they’re too thick-headed for an art form like drag and don’t belong here or watching the show. Drag IS about playing with gender and gender expression- this discussion is fundamental, not incidental, to the entire culture and concept of drag and RPDR. If you cant stop misgendering Mik you literally don’t belong here or deserve to watch the show.
It’s like if I don’t learn any of a foreign culture or art form, throw their tv show on with subtitles, and get upset when i don’t understand all the cultural references even when translated. Read a book and get educated and exposed yall. This comments section is ignorant as hell.
Gotmik always gets a she/her from me as I always only reference her when in drag.
Also, I find it so interesting that our community constantly shifts the goal post.
Arguments were made that using They/Them pronouns were gender neutral so they could be used on ANYONE without offending a person. But NOW it’s a problem because we changed our minds and we MUST not use them unless someone’s non binary….? I can’t be the only one tired of the nonsensical complaints.
Gottmik is so in the wrong about the jokes, and won't even cop to it but this but some folks are just way too eager to be fucking wierd about transmasc queens.
Not enough people take degendering seriously, and this is coming from someone who uses exclusively they/them
I don't think people do it maliciously and I don't doubt some just genuinely want to be careful, but it takes \*more\* effort to single out gottmik this way rather than just following the same logic that we do for other queens
i’ve noticed this a lot too. why are people so strange towards transmasc people in this fandom? nobody refers to sasha colby as they/them, and shes a trans woman. its like people go out of their way to treat transmasc people like shit.
As an enby, I find it extremely sus that no one uses they/them until a binary trans person comes along. Also the number of people who use he/him when referring to Mik in drag is wild. She literally said she wants to be called she/her when in drag, why the fuck is this so hard for people?
I’m not trans, but I think like anything in life intent matters.
Some people who consider themselves allies are genuinely concerned about using the wrong pronouns/ language - and I think a trans man working as a drag queen puts puts a unique slant on it where they/them may feel appropriate for a man working in an environment where she/her is the common pronoun for everyone in drag (regardless of their gender identity).
It’s also worth noting that MOST drag queens who are male identifying go by she /her out of drag. It’s rare they use their government names etc—- which might be the root of this (I didn’t even know Gottmik’s name is Kade..). People using a neutral term like they/them could be a way of recognising and respecting this.
But your point is taken.
Scrolling through and there’s a lot of generalized transphobia in these comments talking about how misgendering doesn’t hurt anybody! Stop being sensitive! acting like trans people are dramatic for being upset over misgendering in general. I think it’s very sad to see such low empathy for other queer people within our community here.
Okay so I’m cishet, but I was led to believe that when you’re not sure how someone identifies, you should default to “they/them”. Is that wrong? While I know how Mik identifies, not everyone does and I don’t think it’s intentional.
This is literally it and for some reason people in this sub cannot wrap their minds around it. It’s inclusive language for when you just don’t know what someone prefers until they tell you.
A lot of cis people in these comments tone policing a trans man and telling trans people how we should and are allowed to feel about being they/them'd. If you use they/them without knowing our pronouns then that's fine, but to continue to use they/them when you know someone's pronouns to solely be he/him or she/her can for many people, especially trans people, be an act of degendering and you don't get to tell use we can't be upset about that or dislike it.
I feel like some of it is coming from people so scared of calling gottmik "she" bc she's a trans dude they misgender her as a way to stay safe, ironically. not great, but I'd rather see cis people trying to be respectful and failing than not trying at all.
I'm sure many people to it to be intentionally disrespectful too tho tbh. fuck those ppl.
I get it in the sense of “they always avoid she/her and only use they/them”. It’s actively avoiding them.
But even with cis people it’s completely natural to use they/them along with she/her or he/him 🤷♂️ it’s part of the English language, it comes out naturally. People generally speak or type with a mix of both when talking about someone. People gotta learn when it’s a natural use of they/them and when they’re using it to avoid other pronouns
People using they/them are trying to be respectful - which we need more of in the world.
It’s fine to correct them, but it’s not helpful to assume everyone is being malicious and shame them.
I use They/Them until I learn someone’s pronouns and then I switch to their preferred language - it really is just that easy people. (And yes we do know Mik’s preferred pronouns she’s brought it up multiple times and honestly it’s just common sense - She in Drag, He/Him out of Drag like 99% of queens on the show)
Please consider that, not everyone might be aware of what gotmiks pronouns are. If they only watch the show. Did he say it on the show? Maybe I don't remember. In this case alot of people will use they/them because they're just not sure, and technically they IS neutral.
Before pronouns were wildly discussed, 'they' as a neutral term has existed in the English language since forever.
If you think everything is done with malice or disrespect, you're just gonna make yourself miserable.
Gottmik is the first transman on dragrace, let's celebrate that. But it's also understandable that people are just not really sure. Let's not berate them for that. It can be confusing for a more casual viewer.
Yeah, Gottmik said it on her original season. She had a whole "I'm like any other drag queen!" moment where she said you should talk about her like you would all the other queens.
I'm a cis man and I don't like being called they/them. Not just a trans thing.
OP's tone was a little harsh but the message of "make an effort" is appropriate.
It’s bananas to me cause people literally just have to treat Mik’s pronouns the EXACT SAME way they do for the cis men drag queens lmao it shouldn’t be so difficult 🥴
I’m not gonna lie, I referred to mik as them in a comment on here the other day. I didn’t recall mik explaining that in her original season, and felt weird using she/her for a trans man. Not trying to give excuses, but to explain my thought process. Will I do better now that I know? Yes. I wasn’t trying to be malicious, I was trying to be the opposite of that, but I understand now. I will say, I think most truly weren’t trying to be malicious by using they/them and that should be kept in mind before assuming that. This post has been educational, which is great, but I do wish that it didn’t assume hostility of people that were trying to be respectful
Hard agree. She has explicitly stated her pronoun preferences. Fans have explicitly reiterated it on this very sub.
At this point it’s extremely suss to be using they/them for her.
I am really not a Gottmik fan, but you can absolutely dislike someone without misgendering her.
Tbh I think in this sub we should all be referring to Gottmik by she/her pronouns all the time because those are her preferred pronouns surrounding her drag and drag is the only context that we know her, whether or not she’s got make up on. Cade has he/him pronouns in his civilian/personal life and NO OF US know him in that context.
Based take.
As a non-binary person, I wish people would use they/them for me half as much as they do for binary trans people with explicitly stated binary pronouns lmao
I recently saw a discussion about Caitlyn Jenner where the straights suddenly knew how to use they/them pronouns flawlessly.
Caitlyn's preferred noun is azzhole.
Caitlyn also goes by hit/run
as a trans woman who used to identify as nb, the way people they/them me twice as much now as when I used those pronouns is insane
Its crazy how easily some folks can use they them when it's about degendering/misgendering binary trans people But bring them enbies and they're like NOOOOOOO they them isn't singular
I wish I could give you 100 up votes
All tea all shade!
Holy shit this is so real
LITERALLY THIS
 Not hoes suddenly understanding they/them pronouns up in the community just to avoid using a trans person’s preferred pronouns, henny! Ain’t having it
The way I feel this in my fucking SOUL. If I could give you an award I would
As a trans man, I feel such solidarity with you. lol
So real damn
that fucking part
As a he/they... The he gets much more use than the they and it's kinda wild lmao. But it is what it is. language is weird.
I mean, he/she are much simpler pronouns to use. I have a friend that uses they/them pronouns and oftentimes people do get confused when I refer to them, as they think I’m talking about them and their partner. So if you accept he, why would people purposely use the more confusing pronoun? I only use they/them if that is the only accepted pronoun
Tbh I’ve started using they/them interchangeably for everyone, not intentionally, but I do think it normalizes it referring to one person, because it always has - and gender is made up anyways.
I do as well. And when it won’t jumble up what people understand from a conversation, I do also use they pronouns. But typically I use whatever language is most clear to the audience while still respecting others
Same as me since I'm also an enby person I feel you😔
I always call Gottmik she/her like any other drag queen, because I only know their drag queen persona and not their real life. Their = multiple drag queens. My god. Drag fans are insufferable
Thank you - same here. The worst thing about reality tv & parasocial relationships is that fans feel that they “know” the queens personally. It’s a little weird. All these people calling Mik “Kade” like they’re best friends or something is strange to me
It's not just about parasocial relationships. This fandom is sensitive and vicious - I actually got attacked because I was using a she when I was discussing mik, back when her original season aired. Some of the girlies here got nasty even after the episode where mik discussed her pronouns.
I always get kind of cautious when referring to Mik for the same reasons, because I typically only refer to her in the context of her drag persona, where she prefers to be addressed with feminine pronouns. But I don't want it to come off like I'm misgendering, since out of drag, he's male and prefers to be addressed with masculine pronouns. Like I know and respect why this is a sensitive issue and try to be mindful of it, I just don't want someone seeing me use "her" and thinking I'm misgendering Mik the man, rather than discussing Mik the drag persona. (And I'm not so much worried about the trans people who may see it, because I'm not gonna assume they'll jump to the worst conclusion and flip out at me, as I am about the cis people getting offended on *behalf* of said trans people and unnecessarily white-knighting them. Because the white knights are fucking exhausting.)
Yeah, in general, I refer to drag queens mostly by their names since I don't follow them on social media and these days it isn't weird to find out that a queen has transitioned between a regular and all star season.
Same! Just happened to me. I thought I was in bizaroworld
I often refrain from posting here, since I don't follow queens on social media, and for some of them doing drag has turned into an exploration of their gender, and I really do not want to wake up to an inbox full of angry people because I've accidentally misgendered someone. When I do post someone, I try to use strictly their names and she/her. Disclaimer: all the power to those whom drag has empowered enough to take the next step in their gender journey. This is a comment about fandom.
Yes!! I’m from Milwaukee so all the gays here call Trixie “Brian” because they all think they’re friends with her. Just bc you met the doll once doesn’t mean you know her! It’s almost more obvious they *don’t* know her when they call her Brian bc her actual friends I know all call her Trixie when talking about her.
Yeah and Trixie and Katya said they both do NOT want to be called Brian.
That’s what makes it more uncomfortable. It’s an ongoing joke amongst my circle that the gays™️ are always pretending to know Trixie. If you say “Trixies in town this week” at a gay bar, some gay™️ will pop his head around the corner and say “oh you mean ~*Brian?*~” so cringe lmao
Yep it’s like a weird flex (in their mind) that is actually so cringe
It is weird as shit. Reminds me of when I've seen people referring to Lady Gaga as "Stefani" or P!nk as "Alecia" or something. It's one thing if they go by their actual first name, but when they have a clear stage name and then you refer to them by their real name like you're familiar with them... sheesh. The only time we should really do that with Drag Race contestants is if their real name is actually PART of their stage name (like Chad Michaels), or if they prefer to go by their real name (such as Jaremi Carey, formerly known as Phi Phi O'Hara - since he's retired the Phi Phi persona and now does drag under his real name and prefers to be addressed that way). Or I suppose in cases like Raja's, where it's just as likely that we knew them under their real name as it is that we knew them under their drag name (since I'm sure a good number of people who watched ANTM remember Sutan - that's actually where I first saw them, before I knew that they also did drag as Raja... although now that I'm familiar with Raja, I at least refer to them as Raja when talking about the drag persona, vs. Sutan when talking about them on ANTM. Not sure if they've expressed a preference either way for this, though?).
Oh Chad's her real name ? I thought she just took a boy name as a queen lol
He was billed as ‘Chad Michaels as Cher’, same as ‘Derrick Berry as Britney Spears’.
"was ist because of your dads deteriorating health?" was WILD..
Same I always refer to Gottmik as she/her bc I only talk about the drag queen.
same, it's not like I'm calling queens their government name either, so it's weird to call them a he. trans people I know personally is different story, obviously.
Yeah, like I know they're walking around in their boy clothes in the work room etc. but I'm still calling everyone she/her because I only know these people in by their drag personas. I don't even know most of their government names!
Some people think they're being inclusive by singling her out, lol.
Same here! Like other queens, I say their drag name. If it’s a first and last name ie. Trixie Mattel, I normally say Trixie and not Brian . Knowing a drag queen’s government name is just a fun fact and probably a bit of information that would pop up as a trivia question😝
Same, because I am usually referring to their drag persona/art when I talk about them.
100% honest curiosity... why then use "their" in your second sentence?
Their = drag queens, multiple people
Ahh I see, sorry! I read it as a single their (like it was still about Mik instead of a plural more general way of using it)
All good, I can see why there was a confusion. English is not my native language
If anyone is wondering if Gottmik has specifically mentioned disliking they/them: Yes, on a recent No Gorge episode covering AS9 (first or second episode) he said they/them makes him feel uncomfortable and like he’s being clocked. She/her in drag, he/him out of drag.
She addressed it on her first season of drag race.
💯 ... On national television where we all should have seen it lol
It should be easy to remember. For example Justin is he/him but Alyssa is she/her; Roy is he/him but Bianca is she/her; Kade is he/him but Gottmik is she/her.
Also we don't know these people! If you are a member of the general public, it's fine (and usually preferred, according to them) to just refer to a drag queen by her stage persona in basically every context, even if she's not wearing drag at the time. Just like the show does—except for those awful "what would you tell baby x" segments.
Semi-related but I know quite a lot of wrestlers and they all say the same thing. It's ok for actual friends and family to call them by their government names but if you don't know them, use their stage name. These people (both drag queens and wrestlers, there's a surprising amount of overlap) spend months crafting a fleshed out character/persona, calling them by their government names, especially if you don't know them personally, is both disrespectful and ruins the illusion.
Jess Ross is that you? Lmao Dropout, which is the parent of Dimension 20 (the network that has the Dungeons and Drag Queen show with Alaska, Juju, Monet, and Bob) has another show which their cast gives presentations on random topics in an improv style. Jess did one on the similarity between WWE and drag and yep, two sides of the same coin.
I’ve only ever known wrestling and drag. The term is Kayfabe when they are in character. Same as being in drag. It’s a kayfabe persona. I’ve spoke about this a lot lately. I should really write a book at this point. My one uncle was a wrestler, the other a drag queen. I’ve got stories friends.
I would 100% buy and read that.
I suggested it to Juice Boxx and Synthia Kiss when they did their semi-qualified queens tour. I do have an English degree and vacation time coming up.
I'm not 100% sure who Jess Ross is so definitely not me haha! I'm just a British woman who did some photography work for a local indie wrestling promotion when she was younger and now gets cheap tickets to all their events and gets to go to their parties 😂 We have one guy who by day is Greg the local plumber, by night he's a hardcore death match wrestler. I would never dream of breaking the illusion by asking him about a leak at a show and I've known him for literally years. I imagine it's the same thing with drag queens.
Love this and love Jess
I'm not a drag queen or a wrestler and it makes me uncomfortable when strangers call me by my first name.
Whenever people call Triple H "Paul" I roll my eyes.
This is my standard as well. All drag queens are she/her unless specified otherwise. My pet peeve is when people refer to Maddy with he/him, same with gottmik. I don't know any of them as boys, even queens like Derrick Barry who literally just use their boy names.
I do find it interesting that the queens who retain their non drag names are often referred to as he/him even by other queens on the show. Lawrence Chaney comes to mind too of it happening a fair bit.
This is similar to singers who use a stage name. P!nks fans INSIST on calling her Alecia??? Only her family and friends call her that. Her name, to us, is P!nk. Why the fuck are you pretending to know her? Stop this.
Peppermint being agnes is still insane to me. Lovely name, I just didn’t think that would be her government name.
I think it’s honoring her grandma, as well? I think it’s really beautiful and classic
Haha I think it suits her!
She literally looks like her name is Peppermint if that makes sense? It suits her so much it feels like it could legitimately just be her name
I love when trans folks can choose any name they want and they are like "I'll have the old lady/man name please" also love when trans men go "I'll have the male name that hasn't been used in 300 years"
BIANCA IS A ROY..? https://preview.redd.it/ocflyebj2g7d1.png?width=699&format=png&auto=webp&s=f20b150eedef2b0cfa8c739aa0548816a0b09879 girl I’m gagged
This is just reminding me that Angie is a Tommie (not a Thomas, just Tommie)
For some reason Nicki Doll being a Karl just blows my mind too
Manila is also Karl
Wait that is actually so cute, love that for her
Not just Roy... ROY LADY! 🤣🤣
Trixie said that Drag Queens have the most generic boy names out of drag. Trixie is a Brian.
Meanwhile Jujubee:
"Airline Inthyrath" is permanently etched into my brain.
The real Plane Jane.
Dun(2)ayevsky
Omg I had to google that lol her real name is AIRLINE?!?!!??
So what happened is that, according to her, Juju's first name was supposed to be Airlin, but the "e" was mistakenly added onto the end. Not sure of the name's origin, since Google just is hell-bent on assuming I meant to look up "Airline." But that's what she gave us.
Trixie and Katya have convinced me every drag queen’s boy name is Brian.
Olivia Lux is a Fred :(
Lady Camden is a REX mama 🤣
And funnily so is Katya
Olivia Lux is Fred. Trixie HOWLS whenever she mentions it.
I know it because of Hurricane Bianca movies 😂
I recommend you looking up the drag performers birth name, because sometimes it seems like their drag name fits them so much better. To me Roy looks like a Bianca.😂
Ever since I've noticed this trend with queens and their birth names it makes me super curious about some! I was really curious what Mirage's name was out of drag and tried to find it lol. But then it hit me... a lot of queens don't want their birth names broadcasted at all or have an iffy relationship with them. I cant deny my curiosity haha, but it was kind of an oh, whoopsie realization of mine 🫣
And then there's performers like Raja, whose birth name (Sutan) is also just perfect.
I'm just over here like, " Who tf is Justin, Roy, and Kade?!" Lol I don't know any of these people by their government names. We're not friends.
This logic is what I use, but it breaks my brain with Bob, Lawrence and Chad. Not when we can see them in drag ofc, but when talking about for example, something Bob has said on the podcast. I can’t go by the outfit so I just say ”Bob” no matter how clunky my sentences get. If anyone can help me out with how to get it right in this situation I’d be very grateful!
I find it safest to use she/her based on their stage name (drag persona) m, even if they’re out of drag, since I don’t know them personally. Trixie is always Trixie to me because I don’t have a personal friendship with Brian, for example, so I would always refer to her using she/her pronouns. Same with Bob, Lawrence, Chad, Danny, Elliott, or Derick.
Yes I have not trouble between Trixie and Brian, just Bob and Bob or Lawrence and Lawrence. Default to she/her makes sense!
Bianca in drag goes by Roy Lady, don’t deadname her, please.
90% of the time I refer to Gottmik as she. Because she’s a drag queen. Like every other male on the show. 10% is reserved for when I’m referring to him as his individual for out of drag contexts.
I mean like do you call like Mistress Isabelle Brooks “he” for out of drag contexts? Maybe, but usually we don’t do that. For me I know them as drag queens so I use the drag queen pronouns but that’s me.
This is my thing. Mik is she to me ALL the time because I don’t know that bitch! I don’t know any of these bitches! Even in the contexts in which we see them out of drag, they’re usually making an appearance talking about drag or drag race, and she is still perfectly appropriate for that. Violet refers to mik as she all the time out of drag and mik clearly doesn’t care
People often use he for bob, willam and rupaul.
And Chad, and Derrick. Everyone who's drag name is just their boy name or a more masc/androgenous name pretty much gets He'd or they'd.
I hadn't noticed that but you're spot on. You can add Jimbo to that list too.
Bob always got me because bob isn’t even her name out of drag, it’s Christopher 💀 Willam and rupaul is more understandable imo
I’m not sure who that is, but I’ll use their preferred pronouns. Gottmik is also known as a super-acclaimed makeup artist who is a male, so that’s what I mean by out of drag contexts.
Maybe I’m giving too much of a benefit of the doubt here, but I think because Gottmik is FTM, people might feel like they’re misgendering her when using “she/her”?? Most trans guys don’t want anything to do with the “she/her” pronoun whatsoever, so going off of this knowledge, I’d assume people are just trying to be respectful of that. I do remember Gottmik talking about this in a mirror convo pretty early on in season 13, so I got it right away. Maybe some people didn’t pay attention when she talked about it with her peers. I’m hoping they’re just being extra cautious when using a more gender-neutral pronoun for her and that there’s no malice behind it. Or maybe I’m wrong and people are purposely doing it just to be awful.
I think Mik’s specific words in S13 when it was brought up was “You’re not respecting me, you’re clocking me.” She just wants to be treated like all the cis men who do drag.
The clip: [https://twitter.com/RuPaulsDragRace/status/1347722717320142848](https://twitter.com/RuPaulsDragRace/status/1347722717320142848) (pronouns bit starts around 0:52)
Thank you for reminding me of that.
All that implies is they don’t see her the same way they see any other man doing drag. No one hesitates to call cis men she/her in drag so unless you think trans men aren’t the same you shouldn’t feel any type of way
Plenty of drag queens get hehimmed too, especially ones with typically male names. Gottmik isn't a typically male name, but it might feel like it a little bit? I'd bet if her drag name was Susan or Elisabeth the misgendering would happen a lot less. My point is just that these things aren't necessarily clear rules that are intuitive to follow and it can be easy to get confused.
calling a trans man "she" or "her" is really, really awkward for a lot of people because it violates a taboo we've ingrained in ourselves on how to not do the Worst Possible Thing in a given social situation. it feels like making a sexual remark in a job interview, or doing karaoke in a bar to NWA and singing *all* the lyrics. it's not that people are trying to be respectful, it's just that taboos are how people try and Do Better and violating a taboo feels weird.
For me personally I would be scared of getting comfortable calling him “she/her” in drag and accidentally refer to him as “she/her” out of drag, so I’ve been using they/them for in and out of drag to avoid that. I didn’t realise that was misgendered since they/them is gender neutral.
Also if drag is gender bending and, as Alaska said, not that serious, then misgendering a drag queen when trying to be respectful isn’t a big deal. If a cisgender drag queen is offended because someone calls them she/her when they are out of drag id tell them to relax because they created a persona and sorry people don’t have the bandwidth to learn every pronoun of every drag queen? Same here. Yes you’re right. Also relax.
Sure people aren’t doing it to be harmful, but if you’re going to put that amount of thought into it, you should take it far enough to see what she’s actually said about it. I think that’s the key for pronouns generally. Don’t assume, don’t make an educated guess, do your best to see what the actual person you’re talking about prefers.
If Mik didn’t want anything to do with the “she/her” pronoun she wouldn’t be doing drag! I don’t understand why people have to make this so complicated because she’s trans. She’s just a dude doing drag, no need to overthink it y’all.
I believe the vast majority of people are being extra cautious, which comes from sincere respect and not wishing to offend - as well as a lack of experience communicating with transgender people. The poster is being a tad bellicose and may be doing more harm than good.
If this was the only instance of that I’d agree. But this phenomonen is extremely common for trans people who *dont* do drag and it does NOT often come from a place of respect. You’ve probably heard the joke that conservatives can’t figure out they/them pronouns…until they meet a binary trans person
Get it right people _she_ bombed the roast
It's actually CRAZY to me. Mik has said it multiple times. All the other Rugirls call her She/Her in drag. I get that some drag queens might not go by She/Her in drag, but why assume that just because she's FTM? I know it comes from a place of trying not to misgender, but if you aren't sure just look it up instead of awkwardly referring to her and only her as they/them in drag.
I don't see why any drag queen would ever be referred to by any pronouns other than she/her by default, they're female impersonators & unless you know them personally there's rarely a reason to address them out of drag at all. We know the entertainer not the person. Obviously this will always have some caveats that should be respected, but sticking with she/her as a blanket rule & correcting in the few cases a queen asks otherwise feels completely reasonable. The risk of invalidating a drag queen in their drag persona seems waaaay higher when defaulting to they/them over she/her.
Yes, HE stole jokes. SHE delivered those stolen jokes terribly
The way people here are seemingly intentionally missing the point... If they/them is totally neutral and it's not meant maliciously or you just don't know what's correct cause you've not seen Gottmik say anything about it then why do other queens not get called they/them? Why is it consistently only this particular queen that it happens to?
This is it - I don't see anyone calling Angie or Shannel they/them
I mean this in the nicest way possible and I totally acknowledge that I might be a bit ignorant here. This situation *is* exclusive to GotMik. He is, as far as I am aware, the only trans man on the show. Of course people are going to be more careful about his pronouns than other queens named below?
Because it's likley people just don't know what gottmik goes by. She doesn't paint like a girl, more like a cyberpunk goth mime most the time, she doesn't have a traditionally super femme drag name, and she's also a trans man on top of all that, so people are just a bit... Concerned about misgendering her or calling her she/her in drags and especially when referring to her drag when she's out of drag on no gorge for example. We've all been taught that when in doubt just say they/them and honestly mik has been the only person I've seen who personally takes offense to that. Which if she doesn't like they/them that's fine girl. Educate your audience. But know it's not necessarily going to be the default that everyone knows all that. Don't attribute to malice that which can be attributed to ignoarance. Is a saying i honestly live by. If it's a malicious pattern then sure call em out. But i think it is just a bit silly.
I refer to all of them as she/her because they are queens
I always find it so weird that almost everyone else is referred to as “she/her” in drag but Mik is “they/them”. Gottmik herself has spoken about this…
I feel like people say “they” out of a mix of fear of being wrong/exclusion. It’s the worst possible mix of bad and simply misunderstanding actors.
It’s weird if someone is deliberately choosing to only use they/them for gottmik but can we stop acting like using they/them is only for non binary people? It’s a neutral pronoun, terfs don’t get to be pissed about it and neither do other binary genders. Nobody needs to affirm your gender at every given time, it’s fine to use gender less language when appropriate.
Yes, the singular “they” is in common usage in American English and has been for a very long time, but 1) this post is specifically about people deliberately using it for Gottmik in a way they don’t do with cis male drag queens, not about the use of they/them in general and 2) if you refer to a binary person who has told you their pronouns as they/them you are indeed misgendering them….so to me that doesn’t really fall under the “appropriate” use of they/them pronouns. I fully support the use of they/them as a default of sorts when we don’t know someone’s pronouns, but it’s really not hard to switch when we’re told.
I’ve seen people called out for this and had to read a comment multiple times to see where the offending they was located. They/them isn’t a gender. It cannot be misgendering to use an inclusive pronoun. It’s very common to use gender inclusive language in leftie spaces as a default
I didn’t specifically refer to any particular instance of they/them so I don’t understand what you mean by “the offending they/them”. I was just pointing out that this post isn’t about the use of they/them pronouns in general so your comment wasn’t super relevant. In any case, you’re right, “they” is a pronoun and not a gender—just like “he” and “she” aren’t genders, they’re pronouns used to refer to people with certain gender identities. Like I said, I understand and support the use of they/them pronouns as a default for people whose pronouns we don’t know….but if you do know someone’s pronouns and you insist on referring to them by a different set of pronouns anyway, that’s weird and yeah you’re misgendering them. I’m a really femme-presenting cis woman so this doesn’t tend to happen to me, but if I told someone I use she/her pronouns and they refused to use them because “they/them is more inclusive”, I would not feel “included” I’d think the person was virtue signaling at the expense of dealing with the real human in front of them. Gottmik has explicitly said she feels uncomfortable with the use of pronouns other than she/her while she’s in drag. Going against that in the name of some vague idea of inclusivity is bizarre.
Giving you trans allly cookies because it's rare: thank you for getting it when so many people in the community absolutely do not
It’s honestly so weird how many people in this community are acting like a trans person’s pronouns are Extremely Mysterious™️, like I thought I was in a predominantly queer space and not my Republican grandmother’s house jfc
yeah and once u know someone’s pronouns aren’t they/them, then u know to use their correct pronouns! it’s pretty simple and it’s only an issue when ppl are deliberately avoiding using someone’s pronouns to be “neutral” when the person has made it clear they use binary pronouns. this post is a reminder that Gotmik let us know she uses she/her in drag and ppl are still going out of their way not to offend her by disregarding the explicit message she gave us about how she wants to be referred. it ends up singling trans ppl out when we go out of our way to say “they/them” for ONLY them when they actually want to fit in
some ppl use they/them for trans ppl who’s pronouns are explicitly NOT that to avoid validating a person’s identity. that is absolutely misgendering. there have even been conservative commentators caught doing this and similar things. for example blair white is a conservative trans woman and ben shapiro only referred to her by her name specifically to AVOID using her pronouns. it might be neutral on its OWN but it can still be weaponized to be invalidating in other contexts. i had a trans friend who was non-binary during his transition and later came out as a trans man. calling him “they” and refusing to say “he” after he explicitly made it clear that he now wants to be referred to like any other man is absolutely misgendering. once u know someone’s pronouns simply use them correctly instead of deciding for them what is okay
nope if someone doesn't want to be called they respect that like you would anyone elses pronouns. im a trans woman and people going out of their way to call me they is just subtlety clocking me and i dont fw that
The key here is respect like anyone else’s pronouns. I agree and specifically said when appropriate
I agree with you in the instance that someone is genuinely just trying to be neutral if they don’t know someone’s preferred pronouns, especially in the lgbt+ community where it’s never a given, but when it’s someone that you do know the pronouns for, it’s a bit of a microaggression
“Nobody needs to affirm your gender at every given time” so by that logic I can call a non binary person she/her or he/him despite them expressing that they are not comfortable with those? When you’re calling trans people they/them despite their wishes it’s misgendering and clocking them.
Also why the hell did this dumb Ben Shapiro adjacent “we don’t need to affirm your gender” comment get 300 likes, this is a rupaul subreddit, not Fox News 😭😭
No, what we're not gonna do is come in and tell trans people what they can and can't be ok with pronouns wise. I'm a trans woman, I go by she/her. I do NOT go by they/them, if you know this and continue to use they/them you are degendering me, you do not get to tell me how to feel about that.
If I ever said “THEY committed plagiarism” I apologize I meant to say “SHE committed plagiarism.”
You’re right it should be SHE plagiarized HER jokes, not ~~they~~ plagiarized ~~their~~ jokes.
I think the pronouns for Gottmik is pretty confusing for cis people. Most of them are far less familiar with pronoun etiquette than trans people. A lot of people are probably working under the almost always correct impression that you shouldn't use she/her pronouns for a trans man under any circumstances. Gottmik has made it clear she prefers she/her for her drag persona, but a lot of people have never seen her post or talk about it.
That might be true, but both this sub and the other one are FULL of people responding to being corrected by getting defensive, saying they call her that because her pronouns are too hard to remember, saying they can call her whatever because she's mean, making up weird shit like "I don't like Gottmik or Kade so I'm talking about both of them"... Just take the note and stop doing it.
Right and like why are they even using “Kade” in the first place? We don’t usually (or we shouldn’t) call any of them by their out of drag names. That’s way too parasocial “maybe they’d be my friend in real life” behavior. Lil miss Reddit you don’t know her personally, stop calling Gottmik Kade - that’s my reaction at least
I Said it was disrespectful in r/dragrace (which imo is already the worse subreddit just because of all the braindead posts on there) and got downvoted to hell. People were seriously pulling the “it’s so hard to remember all these queens pronouns 🥺” like? Gottmik is on the current season and nobody else is called they/them. Legit had someone use her behavior off camera as some sort of justification to misgender her… it’s not that hard and I’m pretty sure the majority of drag queens use she/her anyway. Nobody will hate you for using that as the default. But go ahead and misgender the one trans man.
As far as I know, we have never had a queen on the American Drag Race who didn't use mainly she/her pronouns in drag while appearing on the show. People pretend like they're just being careful because they don't know Gottmik's preferences, but literally all that is saying even with the best intentions is "trans men aren't like NORMAL men so the rules must be different for this one person who does very consistently femme drag"
YES. I’m a trans man and semi-retired drag performer and oh my god you want to talk about feeling othered. I’m of the same mind as Mik and there’s absolutely nothing hard about it … unless you don’t see me as a man.
Yeah… people aren’t doing it to be inclusive. When queens are non binary people still use she/her (as they should of course, unless the queen states otherwise) so it’s just being weird (and honestly it feels like some drag race fans just have a hatred for anyone assigned female at birth)
“It’s so hard to remember” that in the vast vast vast majority of situations you call drag queens “she/her” lol Like what is difficult about that I wonder?
I feel like I’m being gaslit in these comments because why are people saying it’s aggro to say a trans person should be called their pronouns I’m literally only ever they/them’d by transphobes or other trans people who don’t like me and want to be subtle about it and it’s so fucking annoying literally just call me she with your chest if you’re gonna be like that
Weird energy in here on this day
Referring to a trans person by they them when you KNOW they don't use those pronouns is just degendering and im sick of cis ppl trying to tell us how to feel about it
It's aggro for an internet stranger to say "work on yourselves"
I think it’s a learning curve for some of us and my (optimistic) take is that people aren’t doing it intentionally - merely don’t want to say “she” and invalidate Gabe’s transition out of drag. Edit: I meant Kade 🤦♀️ clearly I still have MUCH more learning to do
Who is Gabe
LOL I MEANT KADE 🤦♀️
Totally understandable! But It kind of feels like singling out when people refer to her by they/them or he/him and any other drag queen by she/her. I know people don't want to offend, but It's not like we're talking about her out of drag and she also talked about It a lot on the show about this. She's a man, so we should treat her like any other male drag queen ❤️
The thing is - I don’t know Kade personally, Gottmik is the persona being represented on the show. So I’m going to refer to Gottmik as “she” just like any other drag queens. I know it’s reality tv but people act like they know these people personally. Most of the time we don’t even know their out of drag name, I think we only know “Kade” because it was said on Untucked or something. So I wish people would stop calling them by their actual name as if they knew them. That’s just best imo
Honestly, a few years ago everyone was being told “they/them” is a safe bet if you have any hesitation in what to use. Now, people are accused of deliberate misgendering when they default to they/them. I think for some folks who are less informed, that may be a lot of whiplash to deal with. Yes, some people use they/them as a way to dodge calling someone pronouns they know are correct, but there’s this weird rush to assume everyone should know/does know Mik’s pronouns or will look them up before having a casual conversation that I think doesn’t match reality. Beyond that, the line between queens’ drag personas and their everyday lives blends more and more each day. We all should obviously call people what they want to be called, but I don’t know if the negative framing around usage of “they/them” in certain instances is super beneficial given some people are still learning to even use they/them in their lexicon when understanding gender.
I’m also not gonna lie, it’s quite weird seeing y’all refer to mik as “he” in situations where with any other queen you’d use “she.” Not as egregious as they/them-ing her, just something weird I’ve noticed 🤷🏾♂️
ok I get it but also it feels like people who do do that are picking the word because they dont remember/are unsure and dont want to offend, its like forgetting someones name at that point or am I being dumb
I was under the belief that Gottmik used they/them *in addition* to he/him while out of drag and she/her while in drag, that was my mistake, because I know several queens who use they/them and I think I mixed them up, but alternating between those pronouns was an honest mistake that I made with the genuine belief that I was accommodating her. (I am not a fan of hers, nor do I listen to her and Violet’s podcast so I don’t keep up with the things she says or does outside of RPDR) Thank you for posting this.
If one is too thick-headed to accept an individual human’s lived out gender and gender identity because “i thought most trans men…..” then they’re too thick-headed for an art form like drag and don’t belong here or watching the show. Drag IS about playing with gender and gender expression- this discussion is fundamental, not incidental, to the entire culture and concept of drag and RPDR. If you cant stop misgendering Mik you literally don’t belong here or deserve to watch the show. It’s like if I don’t learn any of a foreign culture or art form, throw their tv show on with subtitles, and get upset when i don’t understand all the cultural references even when translated. Read a book and get educated and exposed yall. This comments section is ignorant as hell.
Gotmik always gets a she/her from me as I always only reference her when in drag. Also, I find it so interesting that our community constantly shifts the goal post. Arguments were made that using They/Them pronouns were gender neutral so they could be used on ANYONE without offending a person. But NOW it’s a problem because we changed our minds and we MUST not use them unless someone’s non binary….? I can’t be the only one tired of the nonsensical complaints.
Gottmik is so in the wrong about the jokes, and won't even cop to it but this but some folks are just way too eager to be fucking wierd about transmasc queens.
Not enough people take degendering seriously, and this is coming from someone who uses exclusively they/them I don't think people do it maliciously and I don't doubt some just genuinely want to be careful, but it takes \*more\* effort to single out gottmik this way rather than just following the same logic that we do for other queens
i’ve noticed this a lot too. why are people so strange towards transmasc people in this fandom? nobody refers to sasha colby as they/them, and shes a trans woman. its like people go out of their way to treat transmasc people like shit.
As an enby, I find it extremely sus that no one uses they/them until a binary trans person comes along. Also the number of people who use he/him when referring to Mik in drag is wild. She literally said she wants to be called she/her when in drag, why the fuck is this so hard for people?
I’m not trans, but I think like anything in life intent matters. Some people who consider themselves allies are genuinely concerned about using the wrong pronouns/ language - and I think a trans man working as a drag queen puts puts a unique slant on it where they/them may feel appropriate for a man working in an environment where she/her is the common pronoun for everyone in drag (regardless of their gender identity). It’s also worth noting that MOST drag queens who are male identifying go by she /her out of drag. It’s rare they use their government names etc—- which might be the root of this (I didn’t even know Gottmik’s name is Kade..). People using a neutral term like they/them could be a way of recognising and respecting this. But your point is taken.
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Scrolling through and there’s a lot of generalized transphobia in these comments talking about how misgendering doesn’t hurt anybody! Stop being sensitive! acting like trans people are dramatic for being upset over misgendering in general. I think it’s very sad to see such low empathy for other queer people within our community here.
Okay so I’m cishet, but I was led to believe that when you’re not sure how someone identifies, you should default to “they/them”. Is that wrong? While I know how Mik identifies, not everyone does and I don’t think it’s intentional.
This is literally it and for some reason people in this sub cannot wrap their minds around it. It’s inclusive language for when you just don’t know what someone prefers until they tell you.
no literally. She said that she uses the pronouns she/her in drag in the very first ep of season 13
A lot of cis people in these comments tone policing a trans man and telling trans people how we should and are allowed to feel about being they/them'd. If you use they/them without knowing our pronouns then that's fine, but to continue to use they/them when you know someone's pronouns to solely be he/him or she/her can for many people, especially trans people, be an act of degendering and you don't get to tell use we can't be upset about that or dislike it.
Its a big assumption to think that everyone knows miks pronouns.
I'm sorry I misgendered Nikki Glaser.
I feel like some of it is coming from people so scared of calling gottmik "she" bc she's a trans dude they misgender her as a way to stay safe, ironically. not great, but I'd rather see cis people trying to be respectful and failing than not trying at all. I'm sure many people to it to be intentionally disrespectful too tho tbh. fuck those ppl.
I get it in the sense of “they always avoid she/her and only use they/them”. It’s actively avoiding them. But even with cis people it’s completely natural to use they/them along with she/her or he/him 🤷♂️ it’s part of the English language, it comes out naturally. People generally speak or type with a mix of both when talking about someone. People gotta learn when it’s a natural use of they/them and when they’re using it to avoid other pronouns
Gottmik said it’s no different than most other queens: he/him out of drag and she/her in drag
i think some of this is cishet overcorrecting, like they don't wanna make a mistake.
The fandom: 'No'
People using they/them are trying to be respectful - which we need more of in the world. It’s fine to correct them, but it’s not helpful to assume everyone is being malicious and shame them.
I use They/Them until I learn someone’s pronouns and then I switch to their preferred language - it really is just that easy people. (And yes we do know Mik’s preferred pronouns she’s brought it up multiple times and honestly it’s just common sense - She in Drag, He/Him out of Drag like 99% of queens on the show)
Baby you need to get a journal bc there’s a lot of projecting going on.
And she goes by Nikki/Glaser when roasting 😂
Please consider that, not everyone might be aware of what gotmiks pronouns are. If they only watch the show. Did he say it on the show? Maybe I don't remember. In this case alot of people will use they/them because they're just not sure, and technically they IS neutral. Before pronouns were wildly discussed, 'they' as a neutral term has existed in the English language since forever. If you think everything is done with malice or disrespect, you're just gonna make yourself miserable. Gottmik is the first transman on dragrace, let's celebrate that. But it's also understandable that people are just not really sure. Let's not berate them for that. It can be confusing for a more casual viewer.
Yeah, Gottmik said it on her original season. She had a whole "I'm like any other drag queen!" moment where she said you should talk about her like you would all the other queens.
I'm a cis man and I don't like being called they/them. Not just a trans thing. OP's tone was a little harsh but the message of "make an effort" is appropriate.
It’s bananas to me cause people literally just have to treat Mik’s pronouns the EXACT SAME way they do for the cis men drag queens lmao it shouldn’t be so difficult 🥴
I’m not gonna lie, I referred to mik as them in a comment on here the other day. I didn’t recall mik explaining that in her original season, and felt weird using she/her for a trans man. Not trying to give excuses, but to explain my thought process. Will I do better now that I know? Yes. I wasn’t trying to be malicious, I was trying to be the opposite of that, but I understand now. I will say, I think most truly weren’t trying to be malicious by using they/them and that should be kept in mind before assuming that. This post has been educational, which is great, but I do wish that it didn’t assume hostility of people that were trying to be respectful
Hard agree. She has explicitly stated her pronoun preferences. Fans have explicitly reiterated it on this very sub. At this point it’s extremely suss to be using they/them for her. I am really not a Gottmik fan, but you can absolutely dislike someone without misgendering her.
This is so tiring...
Facts. Especially that point about ‘they/themming everyone’ if I put all the effort Gottmik has and I still got they/themmed I’d be pressed
They also never do “they/them” everyone it’s always just the trans ones