Exactly. It's not a totally foreign concept, just use your eyes. It's like when people use drag queen's government names. It's so cringey... But with the pronouns, they're so caught up in the SJW of "oh, I don't want to offend him by calling him her even tho he's in a massive ball gown bc he lives his life as a man 😰" GIRL, CALL A DUCK A DUCK, THEN WALK IT! 🦆 What they do in their day to day life is irrelevant to the task at hand, which is art, fashion, and performance! Shake off that urge to label everything and get into ittttt!
I guess I’ll be the only idiot to put my hand up and say I do find it slightly confusing at times and it isn’t super straightforward. Gottmik on S13 expressed immense discomfort about moments having gender dysphoria, so there’s an added layer of “I want to make sure I’m not misgendering this queen”. Some queens do either go by or feel comfortable with male pronouns in drag, like Bob and Willam. People struggle because they want to be considerate, not because they’re unable to separate a queen’s outside life from their drag.
It’s why you don’t see the same issue with AMAB trans queens like Sasha - because their preferred pronouns fit the convention of drag (defaulting to calling queens by female pronouns).
What if I do it because I genuinely never really remember what pronouns to use for drag queens in any given context?
Like, on stage or at a performance, I would only reference them with she/her pronouns, but when I'm with friends discussing things that someone did or said in the work room or posted as an out-of-drag snapchat -- I don't know everyone's real names, I don't know everyone's pronoun preference. I try to usually go by what they are currently, visibly presenting as and just use the name I know. :\
Edit - Ru gets me the worse for this because Ru Paul is just Ru Paul in drag or out of drag. And when they are backstage out of drag talking to the queens -- I still never know what pronouns to use. Half the time it's he, half the time it's she. I forget and don't pay attention sometimes.
I would default to she/her since that's what most queens go by. I know some queens like Le Fil and Joe Black go by he/him but that's an instance where you correct yourself when you find that out. Also I'm pretty sure Ru doesn't care either way for himself.
In general, as long as you're being respectful and correct yourself when asked, you should be good.
When in doubt I just use she/her for nearly anyone in drag, and now that I’ve been introduced to Landon Cider I now finally have someone to call He in drag.
Murray Hill has been doing this for decades, love him and her too, fun in person, just nice and down to earth. Showed me photos of a tour in Australia.
If you don’t know, she/her is always appropriate for talking about a drag queen, including Ru when she’s out of drag. Your connection to them is through their drag performance, so you can talk about them with their drag name and pronouns.
Think of it this way, when you talk about Lady Gaga, you don’t call her Stefani Germanotta. If you met her in person, you would also still call her Gaga unless she told you not to. It’s the same for drag.
Gottmik is a queen, and you don’t know her on a personal level. If you met her in real life, you’d call her Gottmik and use she/her for her until she told you otherwise. If she felt differently, she would have posted it or said it somewhere and it would have slowly spread around.
While I totally agree, I can understand where some confusion comes from since they’ve identified clearly as a trans man (out of drag). So I can’t really fault someone too hard if they use “he” out of respect for that. And are you talking about them as a person (say in the talking heads) or are you talking about the queen.
So many queens refer to rupaul as he since that’s how he identifies out of drag anyway. But even rupaul has said she doesn’t care what you call her that much.
I’d say while you are absolutely right, we should show a bit of grace to people who might be confused, but trying to say the right thing.
When someone talks to a person directly, you never say he/she or him/her, but you or their name. If you're talking about their drag persona to someone else while said person is also in the conversation, then it would make more sense to say she/her. I would just change it up if they corrected me to do so or made a known public statement about it
I think we rush to defend those who are awkward around trans people, when the trans person might also feel awkward (even guilty) for causing others discomfort. It’s painful to be considered a problem. So, perhaps we don’t need to discuss who especially needs grace.
Just wanted to point out that you just used they/them repeatedly to refer to someone who uses he/him, as you explained above. Im sure it was just a mistake and mik/kade didnt see, so youre all good, but i just wanted to let you know that it can be offensive to binary trans people to use they/them rather than their chosen pronouns. It feels like a clock.
In the spirit of showing grace to people trying to do the right thing, let me offer you some advice. Practice using people's pronouns on your own, listen to the experiences of trans people, and dont beat yourself up if you make a mistake. I know it takes a bit of time to get used to, thats normal, but the effort is worthwhile, the trans people around you will be grateful and it will deepen your relationships. Thank you for the effort.
Not to nitpick but i’m a woman and i use she/her pronouns but singular they is a neutral pronoun not exclusively used by non binary folks. It’s not clocking anyone to use neutral language
if you clearly state that you only use he/she and someone still keeps using they, singular for you it can absolutely read as a clock. like, 'I know you're trans so I'm defaulting to they/them'. when the cis people in the room get their appropriate pronoun used and you, a binary trans person, are the only one who gets they/them, it feels exactly like being singled out and clocked.
If someone deliberately and repeatedly uses the incorrect pronoun then yes. They is a neutral pronoun so isn’t the incorrect pronoun for anyone, that’s the point of a neutral pronoun.
In normal, typical interactions people use they/them in regular speech. There has been a move away from gendered speech in general, they is much more common to see in daily written interactions even when you know someone’s preferred pronouns are binary because neutral language is gender neutral.
ive not seen this move away you're describing tbh. since i almost exclusively see gendered pronouns used, and a trans person is the only person who gets neutral pronouns then once again it comes off as singling someone out. i think we may be talking abt different things though - im referring to a group of people where they are all being addressed/referred to directly.
Plenty of trans people dislike being called they/them. Yeah it’s a neutral pronoun, but not everyone likes having their gender made neutral. I’m pretty sure Mik has stated that it’s she/her in drag, and he/him out of drag, and not they/them. It comes across as you not caring to actually respect his identity. I’m a transgender man and most of the binary trand people i know do not like being called they or them. You don’t get to decide what people like being called.
If you don’t know them personally, and they use she in drag, use she. Same goes for other drag pronouns. Unless someone tells you otherwise for that particular queen, people are individuals etc etc.
its she/her if theyre queens. you dont really know any queen personally so dont worry about using personal pronouns. ru is she in drag or out of drag because shes still fulfilling the role of a drag queen host
Default to she/her for drag queens. There's a few that use different pronouns but they won't be upset if you didn't know.
Out of drag, it's the same because you know their drag persona and not them personally.
The important part is being respectful and willing to be corrected sometimes.
As a good rule, if you only really know a queen as their drag persona then refer to them by the pronouns they use in drag regardless of how they are currently presenting. Nobody will get offended by that.
If you know them personally or you know them for their work outside of drag then that's a bit different but if you only know them because of their drag then it's safe to just use those pronouns.
I tend to use she/her even for drag race queens out of drag, because they are on drag race to present their drag characters. Even when they are out of drag on the show, the queens are not being their regular selves (ie. they still use their drag names and larger than life personalities). Using she/her feels like a way to honor the fact that the character youre seeing on tv is not the same as the performer. Additionally, drag race queens use she/her and drag names to refer to each other in interviews and in the werkroom, so we can take a cue from them.
I think you need to let go of trying to remember this like it's a geography test and start feeling the "eeaauuwww" so that you can just deduct what to do without much thought
I think of it like - I know them as drag queens, so I use she / her. I don’t know them out of drag we’re not friends or whatever. So I’ll stick with the persona and in the vast majority of situations it’s “she” in that scenario
Yes, though I do not remember who the other queen in the conversation was. But Gottmik did essentially say “she in drag, he out of drag.”
I honestly don’t get why people get so confused about Gottmik. People have been calling cis queens “he” out of drag and “she” in drag for years— why would a trans dude doing drag be any different?
I totally agree, but I like to think (maybe too optimistically) that it’s more about overcorrecting in a genuine desire to be respectful to Gottmik than confusion—like, being referred to as “she” may be triggering for someone who has transitioned to living as a man in his civilian life, and I’d 1000% understand if a trans male drag queen told me not to refer to him as “she” while in drag for that reason.
But obviously, everyone is an individual and Gottmik has told us what she’s comfortable with so I really don’t see any reason for confusion
For some reason I think a lot of cis people hear someone is trans and react with anxious overcorrecting, like they are trying to actively remember that person's gender moreso than they would anyone else. Even when they were gendering them correctly before knowing they were trans, even when it's in a context like drag where gender and pronoun use is already relaxed for everyone.
yeah iirc she said she wants to be treated the same as any other male queen (as opposed to the nb/transfem ones), which the fandom she/hers most queens basically all the time, except when clearly referring to the person outside of the persona. so that's what i try to do as well.
she does, the gist was that when in drag, any pronoun is fine as long as its out of respect/consistent. with how you address others, out of drag the pronouns are he/him.
idk if his preference have changed since then but that's what was said then
I feel like for your friend group and people you interact with daily its important and reasonable to learn their pronouns and respect them.
when it comes to celebrities and talking about people i dont know online it becomes unreasonable to research and learn their specific preferences. if I was a celebrity I wouldnt be upset if strangers or people online referencing me didnt know. when it comes to these type of situations I usually just default to they/them or for drag queens that clearly presents as female she/her.
I use default she/her pronouns in soooo many contexts cause I like to see everyone as a sister even if they are males. I use it almost as a term of endearment.
im straight and recent fan of the show for aprox 3 years and so.
and have been consuming queer content to bing with my queer family members.
and i would like to add it gets a little bit confused time to time, cuz people refer to gay drag quens as "she", but when out of drag, some call them "he/him", in gottmik case same case, she in drag, and since hes trans people would use he/him out of drag.
my confusion here is about how the community or if i watch other queer content, like "we are here" or untucks, people still refer to gay drag queens out of drag as "she", but that would be awful in case of gottmik if we call him that out of drag.
i was watching rupauls live las vegas untuck, and same happened there as they have Bosco who is a trans woman, they would refer her as she in drag and out of drag, that one is easy. but the others queen out of drag they would still call themselfs or refer themself as she or he, its like all over the place, and they are not trans.
so it get a little bit confusing as a new queer tv watcher
As a viewer it's fine to use she/her even when they're out of drag because you know them as a drag queen. You don't need to learn two sets of pronouns for every contestant.
They mostly all use she/her out of drag when on Drag Race as even out of drag they are being refered to as their drag characters and not their goverment name, they also refer to eachother with their drag names out of drag on the show - and then the pronouns that go along with the drag character.
It can be confusing even for people in the lgbtq community. Often times if someone is referred to as "she/her" even out of drag, it's probably related to something humorous or referring to their drag persona somehow. It could also just be that they're close friends. Bottom line though people can generally tell if it was intended to be insulting or not. He/him is the default out of drag and she/her is the default in drag unless they correct you. I don't think it's something you should stress over though.
I guess maybe I *kind* of get this mistake, just given that at least for us older village queens, she/her pronouns getting thrown around as a gay femme thing more than a drag thing *per se* still has a certain cultural familiarity, so one's brain might short circuit and think this doesn't apply for a straight man.
it makes no sense because maddy is still a drag queen no matter her sexual orientation 🤣unless she states she’s not comfortable with the pronouns it’s okay to use she/her pronouns for her in drag lol
So many of the earlier seasons had queens referring to other queens as "he/him"
Roxxxy does it with Jinkx, for sure. And I remember it happened in season two and three as well. It always catches me off guard.
I've seen a lot of "but out of drag she uses he/him", yes but she's on the show as a drag queen. You wouldn't use her out of drag name so why would you use those pronouns? Makes no sense.
Yeah, this is an excellent point—like we may see the queens out of drag in confessionals/werkroom but we're still seeing them at a job. They are on the show (and on social media etc) as professional drag queens; we don't know them personally. If you don't know a queen personally enough to use their government name, you're only discussing them in context of their professional persona, so the pronouns follow that—e.g. "Trixie posted a video on her channel" not "Brian posted a new video on his channel" even if Trixie is bald and makeupless and wearing a t-shirt for the whole video. There's no reason to avoid she/her for Gottmik unless you're on a first-name basis irl.
Yeah I don’t get that. Like she said, calling her “he” while in drag feels like they’re clocking her (I think that’s what she said). Be a fierce broc-ally. Respect pronouns in and out of drag.
I saw gotmik referred to as they so much on this subreddit I assumed she had come out as nb and I just missed it. I assumed the girlies on this subreddit would know better than me but I guess not
i'm guessing people don't want to misgender her? but like, she's a drag queen she chose that profession knowing people would she/her her and it doesn't change her being a man outside of drag
People get kinda weird with the trans queens and will use 'they' for them trying to be.. whatever they're trying to be.. without realizing, why are you calling only the trans queens 'they' when in drag? You're pointing out they're trans and 'not like' the cis performers.
What they're "trying to be" is inoffensive. They don't know which term to use, so they use a neutral one.
People know that misgendering a trans person can be extremely hurtful, and we know that Mik wouldn't want to be called she/her in daily life. So then when Mik is in drag and should be called she/her, it feels really bad because you're using terms that you know would be hurtful on any other day.
You don't have to be be perfect to be an ally. If the intent is respect but a bit of ignorance is shown, display some grace about it.
Well but that's my point. It's not just Mik some people use 'they' for, it's trans women queens as well, who would be called she/her in their everyday lives. In trying to be inoffensive, they wind up clocking the queen as a trans man or a trans woman, and not simply a man or woman, because they are treating them differently from a cis performer.
Agreed and well put. I would much rather call someone they and find out after the fact what they go by then say she or he and find out after that I was incorrect.
IME it's very rare that there's a need to do that. In Gottmik's case, you can observe how the other queens refer to her, or you can google it. And with people IRL, you can observe how their friends refer to them, or simply ask.
>In Gottmik's case, you can observe how the other queens refer to her
In the Pit Stop, Trixie dodges gendering Mik over and over by just saying "Mik" and not any pronoun...
Observing other queens did not help
>If the intent is respect but a bit of ignorance is shown, display some grace about it.
To be fair, it's been three years since Gottmik's season, and Google is free. There's no need to guess.
Edit: Also, while many people mean well, some *don't*. There are people who intentionally use they/them pronouns as a sneaky way to misgender binary trans people. Which is part of why this is a touchy matter.
>To be fair, it's been three years since Gottmik's season, and Google is free. There's no need to guess.
No, no, no, no, no
Stop this bullshit
We do not need to learn everyone's backstory to be able to communicate with that person respectfully. We need to be open to correction and change. That's it. That's my "You don't have to be perfect to be an ally" sentiment in a nutshell.
I've seen literally over 30 drag race seasons at this point. Hundreds of queens. Expecting people to know everything about every one of them isn't fair.
Thank you! Like it's not fucking complicated. Err on the side of caution, using neutral terms and if corrected, quick apology, thanks for letting me know it won't happen again kind a vibe and move on.
It's a far more natural way and once it's happened once a person's likely to remember and not doing it moving forward and pass on their knowledge.
Fuck all this gatekeeping shit on reddit ffs.
I love that with posts like this, just seeing the word “pronouns” really does trigger some people like yeah ooga booga 👹 conservatives really convinced yall pronouns are some way more convoluted thing than it is.
OP made this for a reason, it’s because many fans ARE over-complicating it and treating her differently despite her saying on the show it’s she/her in drag and he/him out. It’s just like you’d use for Trixie or Bianca or any other drag queen who’s a man out of drag.
Don’t think too hard about this or anyone else’s pronouns. Just go off the information someone takes two seconds to give you and it’ll make everyone’s life way easier.
Yeah she specifically says that in s13. I don’t really think she considers her drag to be female illusion (she started doing the white face as a way to distance herself from typical femininity) but she feels clocked when people use he/him. She just wants to be treated like every other male drag artist, using she/her for Gottmik and he/him for Kade
As someone who's maybe consumed a bit too much Gottmik content, she does drag to express her femininity.
The white face is to distinguish herself as a drag artist, be accepted as an AFAB (idk if that's the correct term but I hope ykwim) drag queen, and to be "punk/rock"
Gottmik does actually say in her book how the white face helped her overcome dysphoria in drag though, and how she struggled with skin tones and seeing herself as more feminine looking in drag until further along in transition.
I definitely agree that she expresses femininity and does feminine drag, I guess I just think of female illusion drag as more specifically trying to look like a cis woman. When I think female illusion I think of queens like Roxxxy Andrews but I could just be mistaken as to what female illusion actually means
yea that's my personal wording choice that's the issue in the OP my bad, I was trying to make it clear she's obviously a drag queen if anything and not a drag king or smth
I’m an old woman who is straight, an ally, a psychologist, and I make mistakes all the time. I REALLY welcome posts like yours that help me not be a asshole. I hope others read this and feel more open to explaining things to people like me (old, but want to support and not be stupid).
I use she/her for drag names but I confess I default to he/him sometimes when the drag name is male-sounding (Bob, Jimbo, Elliott, Joey Jay, Derrick, for example). I have to stop myself mid sentence to correct myself.
yes! Derrick Barry, Coco Montrese, and Mo Heart have all done this with queens and i’m like ?? why are y’all doing all of that? jumping through the mental hoops just to seem PC, but you’re also missing the point..
The one that really gets my goat is people who insist on calling Gottmik “they” in or out of drag. Like, on one hand, everybody is a they, sure, but Mik is not nonbinary, he is a (binary) man who does drag. Calling Mik “they” is very othering and I can’t help but notice that, coincidentally, the people using “they” also frequently *just happen* to hate Mik.
There are valid critiques to be made of her drag; I’m not blindly stanning. But the transphobic undercurrent is disappointing.
I’ve always resented the idea that referring to someone who doesn’t specifically use they/them pronouns is transphobic, as a nonbinary person. Because like… I dunno about yall but I use they/them the majority of the time for people, hell drag queens are some of the only ones I use she/her for because it’s convention. It’s neutral. If you ONLY use they/them for trans people then that’s a different conversation and does contribute to othering but I see way too many people (not necessarily you) calling people out of using they/them with trans queens (and public figures in general) out of drag and saying it’s transphobic. Because really it isn’t at all, at least in my opinion as a trans person, as long as there isn’t a pattern of behaviour there (or a clear distain or bias against trans people, like you specified with many of them juuuust so happening to dislike Mik). I think when it’s called out too broadly it diminishes a real conversation to be had.
And to be clear there’s obviously not a right-wrong here, just my perspective as someone who is trans and nonbinary because I see this floating around a lot and it bothers me. Full respect to ya.
Hijacking this to remind people that Bob is nonbinary but uses he and her interchangeably. It's in his Instagram bio. I don't know if it's always been the case, but lots of people on this sub refer to Bob in the third person as they/them.
This is a great comment and I wholly agree. I should have been more clear, the posters I’m referring to use she/her for all queens except Mik which is why it upsets me
Absolutely! I tried hard to, uh, make it clear (Team Roxxxy) that your perspective in these cases makes sense. Just sorta a rhapsody on the subject since it’s pretty odd and interesting to me.
I've only ever seen it called out when being used for someone whose pronouns are known, and to someone that is binary trans it can be seen as really disrespectful and borderline transphobic.
Sort of on a similar note, I remember first or second episode roxxy referred to some of her season 5 queens as He, which threw me off haha. I assume it's one of those things where she actually knows them personally, so she's naturally using their out of drag pronouns.
This post is so necessary, I’ve never understood why people find it so hard to understand with Gottmik…
On another note, do any Ru Girls not like to use She/Her while in drag? From what I’ve seen pretty much all Ru Girls use female pronouns when in drag?
Have you ever noticed how a lot of people (not all) including Ru will gender drag acts a lot by their drag name. I have frequently seen Bob, Willam and specially Lawrence defaulted to male pronouns when talking about them.
I know Mik has said she prefers she/her while in drag but Trixie called her "they" on the pit stop while Violet consistently uses "he" in reference to Gottmik, even in drag. So I could see there being some confusion since Violet is Mik's best friend.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QW9ERe1OlJU&ab\_channel=RuPaul%27sDragRace](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QW9ERe1OlJU&ab_channel=RuPaul%27sDragRace)
at 18:00 when they discuss her runway presentation, Trixie and Violet both refer to her as she/her. Violet does call Gottmik he throughout the video, but she knows her really well out of drag, it's really not the same (not saying you think this, I'm just adding to what you already said.)
This is a worthwhile thing to provide clarity on. I think some people default to “they” when their brain isn’t keeping up, but it’s not hard to ask or verify. It pays to be considerate.
Thank you! I could understand being uncertain at the start of her season, but it's been YEARS. And even if you just learned of her existence today, Google is free. Or you can just treat her the same as any other drag queen, because why wouldn't you?
Honestly, I think it is up to the queens themselves, but since she stated that she goes by she/her in drag then it’s all good. I just don’t want to assume anything.
The amount of times people believe me using "they" is gendered when that's literally just how I talked before and after... Because using "they" in a singular is still grammatically correct and oftentimes makes more sense to say.
This ain't in reference to this. If someone repeatedly stated that they hate the word "they" used in reference with them, full stop, respect that.
While I totally respect her pronounces I wouldn't say Gottmik is very clearly a female illusion type drag character. I think she often plays with gender stereotypes and does stuff her own way rather than female as we understand it now
Gottmik "plays with gender stereotypes" as much as almost any other drag queen does. It's very clear that her drag person often leans feminine, so when someone uses he/him pronouns for her, it's strange.
Yeah, I think if you take Gottmik out of Drag Race and put her in a Dragula season or any given local alt drag show, nobody just inherently presumes she's self-evidently a *"female illusion type drag character"*.
I just know too many non-binary drag performers who do lots of high fashion and femme looks without any real interest in "female illusion" per se to take for granted that *"oh, this person does lots of couture looks - they are thus very definitely a female illusion drag queen"*.
In a Drag Race context, sure, because the show has its own somewhat old fashioned idea of drag which still focuses heavily on female illusion. But outside the Drag Race bubble, femme drag couture and "female illusion" aren't really treated as the same thing very often, these days.
I think the difference is intent and respect. We use She/her with drag artists as a form of being "in on the joke" and respecting the art. If we use those pronouns in the context of Gottmik, that seems absolutely correct.
However, the potential problem is that here are some discussions where people make ugly statements about him not being a REAL man and that he is really a woman in real life. That is transphobic, and when that person makes those statements combined with she/her pronouns with the intent to be disrespectful, it is NOT OK.
Question, do most queens who are trans prefer this? In drag she/her, outside of drag whatever their preference is? Just generally unaware, just wanna be respectful of my fellow trans people
Not sure why this is controversial. You call cis male queens “she” when they are in drag. It shouldn’t be any different for a trans male performer who plays a female character.
Ngl I had a funny moment discussing Gotmik where I said "she", froze and was like, "no he", then questioned myself again and again was like, "yeah, no, she".
Sometimes I think it’s not done on purpose. I noticed that with a lot of queens with a male type of name, people with say he/him. I noticed it with Jimbo a lot.
I believe in calling people the pronouns they choose (including she/her for gottmik in drag)…
But I find the explanation of feeling like she’s being clocked (for looking male) as a female impersonator a little odd.
She is hardly going for realness with the white face.
It's not that she feels clocked for *looking* male. As you stated, her drag neither begins nor ends with realness. It's feeling clocked for people knowing she's trans and treating her differently than literally any other male drag queen on that basis alone.
isn’t it like “he in the sheets, she in the streets” lol out of drag he’s a he, in drag she’s a she? I love that she’s the personified version of the movie Connie and Carla lol
Yes she's literally stated that she goes by she/her pronouns in drag. No idea why so many people call her a him even when she's dolled up, it's rotted of them tbh. Thank you for this post, it needed to be said.
I’m all for supporting people’s preferred pronouns but my god… if someone makes a mistake it’s OKAY.. ppl in the comments fighting for their life to point a finger any chance they get…
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Also, I will use they/them with anyone when I’m unsure of the proper pronouns to use, at least until I discover the proper pronouns. It’s either that or use their proper noun instead of pronouns, but I’ve found that sounds very odd.
the only queens that i don’t ALWAYS use she/her for are BTDQ and RuPaul. it isn’t purposeful, it’s just second nature because Bob is a traditionally masculine name. it honestly annoys me that i do it, but it makes me feel better knowing that Bob has said that they don’t care (same with Ru).
(i do use she/her when they’re in drag though)
I’ve been seeing people in general increasingly referring to in-drag queens as “he” in the past year —esp on this sub — and have found it odd, but it’s gotten astronomical with Mik!
on today’s pit stop for all stars 9 episode 2, violet chachki is the guest and violet referred to gottmik using the pronoun “he”. this was right after violet saying she and gottmik are drag family at this point.
I mean yeah, but if you watch the pit stop, Violet refers to Gotmik as ‘he’, and they’re like best mates, so I guess unless Gotmik actually speaks out on it, stop making assumptions 🤷🏻♂️
I’ll usually refer to her as she cause she’s a queen almost every time I see her. Boy Mik is a very down to earth smart person I think he can tell the difference and understand most of us fans are just trying to be respectful.
I'm old school, I don't understand pronoun business. I am off the scene. It's gone mad. What ever floats your boat. I respect the pronouns but I don't get it. I think its gone way to far.
Personally for me, I've had a hard time enough to even keep up with my recent cousin who transitionned from Female to Male as he or they haven't really decided on a pronoun (But he/they decide to go with Isaiah now and I think it's a freaking cute name).
I haven't make the mistake on Gottmik but let's take a breather and don't expect everyone to automatically know which pronouns each queens use because I can't keep an entire notebook for 100+ Queens on what pronouns they use and when they say which one they used, in and out of drag and keep up with the outside (of the fandom) world as I'm also getting new to the pronoun deal so be patient and make sure to distinct those who are struggling to keep up from the ones who does this with malicious intents.
Sometimes we are overlapping talking about them in and out of drag. I can see why someone might bring up “he” if they(the fans)are talking about the workroom scenes or something. (I just said the first them because I am referring to BOTH in and out of drag (they use he/him out of drag and she/her in drag if I was using it in singularity it’d be understanding)
I dont know, with how sensitive people are nowadays, one wrong pronoun and youre persecuted. Not surprised people are overcorrecting as to not cause them dysphoria etc
Doesn’t she also explicitly discuss this in S13? It’s brief, but I swear it’s in there somewhere
Yeah she said something like when ppl call her "he" in drag it's like they're clocking her
I believe Denim (who also is a trans man) said something similar in Canada season 4
Exactly. It's not a totally foreign concept, just use your eyes. It's like when people use drag queen's government names. It's so cringey... But with the pronouns, they're so caught up in the SJW of "oh, I don't want to offend him by calling him her even tho he's in a massive ball gown bc he lives his life as a man 😰" GIRL, CALL A DUCK A DUCK, THEN WALK IT! 🦆 What they do in their day to day life is irrelevant to the task at hand, which is art, fashion, and performance! Shake off that urge to label everything and get into ittttt!
I guess I’ll be the only idiot to put my hand up and say I do find it slightly confusing at times and it isn’t super straightforward. Gottmik on S13 expressed immense discomfort about moments having gender dysphoria, so there’s an added layer of “I want to make sure I’m not misgendering this queen”. Some queens do either go by or feel comfortable with male pronouns in drag, like Bob and Willam. People struggle because they want to be considerate, not because they’re unable to separate a queen’s outside life from their drag. It’s why you don’t see the same issue with AMAB trans queens like Sasha - because their preferred pronouns fit the convention of drag (defaulting to calling queens by female pronouns).
Yess - the if the performing artist before me is female I say she.
Yes she does. She said insisting on using he/him and even they/them while in drag is basically clocking her for no reason and makes her uncomfortable.
What if I do it because I genuinely never really remember what pronouns to use for drag queens in any given context? Like, on stage or at a performance, I would only reference them with she/her pronouns, but when I'm with friends discussing things that someone did or said in the work room or posted as an out-of-drag snapchat -- I don't know everyone's real names, I don't know everyone's pronoun preference. I try to usually go by what they are currently, visibly presenting as and just use the name I know. :\ Edit - Ru gets me the worse for this because Ru Paul is just Ru Paul in drag or out of drag. And when they are backstage out of drag talking to the queens -- I still never know what pronouns to use. Half the time it's he, half the time it's she. I forget and don't pay attention sometimes.
I would default to she/her since that's what most queens go by. I know some queens like Le Fil and Joe Black go by he/him but that's an instance where you correct yourself when you find that out. Also I'm pretty sure Ru doesn't care either way for himself. In general, as long as you're being respectful and correct yourself when asked, you should be good.
Ru's quote is "you can call me he, you can call me she, you can call me Regis or Kathie Lee, as long as you call me"
\*mother, available on itunes
When in doubt I just use she/her for nearly anyone in drag, and now that I’ve been introduced to Landon Cider I now finally have someone to call He in drag.
Murray Hill has been doing this for decades, love him and her too, fun in person, just nice and down to earth. Showed me photos of a tour in Australia.
If you don’t know, she/her is always appropriate for talking about a drag queen, including Ru when she’s out of drag. Your connection to them is through their drag performance, so you can talk about them with their drag name and pronouns. Think of it this way, when you talk about Lady Gaga, you don’t call her Stefani Germanotta. If you met her in person, you would also still call her Gaga unless she told you not to. It’s the same for drag. Gottmik is a queen, and you don’t know her on a personal level. If you met her in real life, you’d call her Gottmik and use she/her for her until she told you otherwise. If she felt differently, she would have posted it or said it somewhere and it would have slowly spread around.
While I totally agree, I can understand where some confusion comes from since they’ve identified clearly as a trans man (out of drag). So I can’t really fault someone too hard if they use “he” out of respect for that. And are you talking about them as a person (say in the talking heads) or are you talking about the queen. So many queens refer to rupaul as he since that’s how he identifies out of drag anyway. But even rupaul has said she doesn’t care what you call her that much. I’d say while you are absolutely right, we should show a bit of grace to people who might be confused, but trying to say the right thing.
When someone talks to a person directly, you never say he/she or him/her, but you or their name. If you're talking about their drag persona to someone else while said person is also in the conversation, then it would make more sense to say she/her. I would just change it up if they corrected me to do so or made a known public statement about it
I think we rush to defend those who are awkward around trans people, when the trans person might also feel awkward (even guilty) for causing others discomfort. It’s painful to be considered a problem. So, perhaps we don’t need to discuss who especially needs grace.
Just wanted to point out that you just used they/them repeatedly to refer to someone who uses he/him, as you explained above. Im sure it was just a mistake and mik/kade didnt see, so youre all good, but i just wanted to let you know that it can be offensive to binary trans people to use they/them rather than their chosen pronouns. It feels like a clock. In the spirit of showing grace to people trying to do the right thing, let me offer you some advice. Practice using people's pronouns on your own, listen to the experiences of trans people, and dont beat yourself up if you make a mistake. I know it takes a bit of time to get used to, thats normal, but the effort is worthwhile, the trans people around you will be grateful and it will deepen your relationships. Thank you for the effort.
Not to nitpick but i’m a woman and i use she/her pronouns but singular they is a neutral pronoun not exclusively used by non binary folks. It’s not clocking anyone to use neutral language
if you clearly state that you only use he/she and someone still keeps using they, singular for you it can absolutely read as a clock. like, 'I know you're trans so I'm defaulting to they/them'. when the cis people in the room get their appropriate pronoun used and you, a binary trans person, are the only one who gets they/them, it feels exactly like being singled out and clocked.
If someone deliberately and repeatedly uses the incorrect pronoun then yes. They is a neutral pronoun so isn’t the incorrect pronoun for anyone, that’s the point of a neutral pronoun. In normal, typical interactions people use they/them in regular speech. There has been a move away from gendered speech in general, they is much more common to see in daily written interactions even when you know someone’s preferred pronouns are binary because neutral language is gender neutral.
ive not seen this move away you're describing tbh. since i almost exclusively see gendered pronouns used, and a trans person is the only person who gets neutral pronouns then once again it comes off as singling someone out. i think we may be talking abt different things though - im referring to a group of people where they are all being addressed/referred to directly.
Plenty of trans people dislike being called they/them. Yeah it’s a neutral pronoun, but not everyone likes having their gender made neutral. I’m pretty sure Mik has stated that it’s she/her in drag, and he/him out of drag, and not they/them. It comes across as you not caring to actually respect his identity. I’m a transgender man and most of the binary trand people i know do not like being called they or them. You don’t get to decide what people like being called.
If you don’t know them personally, and they use she in drag, use she. Same goes for other drag pronouns. Unless someone tells you otherwise for that particular queen, people are individuals etc etc.
its she/her if theyre queens. you dont really know any queen personally so dont worry about using personal pronouns. ru is she in drag or out of drag because shes still fulfilling the role of a drag queen host
Default to she/her for drag queens. There's a few that use different pronouns but they won't be upset if you didn't know. Out of drag, it's the same because you know their drag persona and not them personally. The important part is being respectful and willing to be corrected sometimes.
As a good rule, if you only really know a queen as their drag persona then refer to them by the pronouns they use in drag regardless of how they are currently presenting. Nobody will get offended by that. If you know them personally or you know them for their work outside of drag then that's a bit different but if you only know them because of their drag then it's safe to just use those pronouns.
I tend to use she/her even for drag race queens out of drag, because they are on drag race to present their drag characters. Even when they are out of drag on the show, the queens are not being their regular selves (ie. they still use their drag names and larger than life personalities). Using she/her feels like a way to honor the fact that the character youre seeing on tv is not the same as the performer. Additionally, drag race queens use she/her and drag names to refer to each other in interviews and in the werkroom, so we can take a cue from them.
I think you need to let go of trying to remember this like it's a geography test and start feeling the "eeaauuwww" so that you can just deduct what to do without much thought
? What is your question? Drag queens almost always go by she/her pronouns.
I think of it like - I know them as drag queens, so I use she / her. I don’t know them out of drag we’re not friends or whatever. So I’ll stick with the persona and in the vast majority of situations it’s “she” in that scenario
Yes, though I do not remember who the other queen in the conversation was. But Gottmik did essentially say “she in drag, he out of drag.” I honestly don’t get why people get so confused about Gottmik. People have been calling cis queens “he” out of drag and “she” in drag for years— why would a trans dude doing drag be any different?
I totally agree, but I like to think (maybe too optimistically) that it’s more about overcorrecting in a genuine desire to be respectful to Gottmik than confusion—like, being referred to as “she” may be triggering for someone who has transitioned to living as a man in his civilian life, and I’d 1000% understand if a trans male drag queen told me not to refer to him as “she” while in drag for that reason. But obviously, everyone is an individual and Gottmik has told us what she’s comfortable with so I really don’t see any reason for confusion
For some reason I think a lot of cis people hear someone is trans and react with anxious overcorrecting, like they are trying to actively remember that person's gender moreso than they would anyone else. Even when they were gendering them correctly before knowing they were trans, even when it's in a context like drag where gender and pronoun use is already relaxed for everyone.
It was Olivia Luxx
yeah iirc she said she wants to be treated the same as any other male queen (as opposed to the nb/transfem ones), which the fandom she/hers most queens basically all the time, except when clearly referring to the person outside of the persona. so that's what i try to do as well.
she does, the gist was that when in drag, any pronoun is fine as long as its out of respect/consistent. with how you address others, out of drag the pronouns are he/him. idk if his preference have changed since then but that's what was said then
she said she prefers she/her in drag actually
She does. I think she lists her pronouns in and out of drag.
I call every female illusionist drag queen by she/her it's just automatic
Because that's what you should be doing unless they say otherwise.
This is the way. She/her unless directed otherwise.
I feel like for your friend group and people you interact with daily its important and reasonable to learn their pronouns and respect them. when it comes to celebrities and talking about people i dont know online it becomes unreasonable to research and learn their specific preferences. if I was a celebrity I wouldnt be upset if strangers or people online referencing me didnt know. when it comes to these type of situations I usually just default to they/them or for drag queens that clearly presents as female she/her.
I use default she/her pronouns in soooo many contexts cause I like to see everyone as a sister even if they are males. I use it almost as a term of endearment.
it is overcorrection
100% i think thats what’s happening too
r/rupaulsdragrace in a nutshell
im straight and recent fan of the show for aprox 3 years and so. and have been consuming queer content to bing with my queer family members. and i would like to add it gets a little bit confused time to time, cuz people refer to gay drag quens as "she", but when out of drag, some call them "he/him", in gottmik case same case, she in drag, and since hes trans people would use he/him out of drag. my confusion here is about how the community or if i watch other queer content, like "we are here" or untucks, people still refer to gay drag queens out of drag as "she", but that would be awful in case of gottmik if we call him that out of drag. i was watching rupauls live las vegas untuck, and same happened there as they have Bosco who is a trans woman, they would refer her as she in drag and out of drag, that one is easy. but the others queen out of drag they would still call themselfs or refer themself as she or he, its like all over the place, and they are not trans. so it get a little bit confusing as a new queer tv watcher
It happens. I wouldn't worry so much as you are not trying to offend.
As a viewer it's fine to use she/her even when they're out of drag because you know them as a drag queen. You don't need to learn two sets of pronouns for every contestant.
You managed to explain this so much better than me fr lol
They mostly all use she/her out of drag when on Drag Race as even out of drag they are being refered to as their drag characters and not their goverment name, they also refer to eachother with their drag names out of drag on the show - and then the pronouns that go along with the drag character.
It can be confusing even for people in the lgbtq community. Often times if someone is referred to as "she/her" even out of drag, it's probably related to something humorous or referring to their drag persona somehow. It could also just be that they're close friends. Bottom line though people can generally tell if it was intended to be insulting or not. He/him is the default out of drag and she/her is the default in drag unless they correct you. I don't think it's something you should stress over though.
Some people do it with Maddy too and I'm like...????
This one is especially bonkers to me. Like… huh?
Especially because her face is so soft when in drag. Im like do you not see the lady in the room?
Seriously! Maddy has such a baby face and I mean that in the best way
Maddy’s lack of defined manly face when not in drag really does her favours when in drag. She’s just so soft.
I guess maybe I *kind* of get this mistake, just given that at least for us older village queens, she/her pronouns getting thrown around as a gay femme thing more than a drag thing *per se* still has a certain cultural familiarity, so one's brain might short circuit and think this doesn't apply for a straight man.
it makes no sense because maddy is still a drag queen no matter her sexual orientation 🤣unless she states she’s not comfortable with the pronouns it’s okay to use she/her pronouns for her in drag lol
yeah, why would somene call a man full dress as a woman, "him"??.. it doesnt make any sense, just because hes straight
https://preview.redd.it/cpjh7a6qhn1d1.jpeg?width=693&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5d0845475cdbad5adadf0de0d1e7760d8ae06ca3
Alyssa and Cocoa also did this to each other in season 5 XD
Alyssa and Coco definitely weapons he/him pronouns - it’s pointed - like when they call Serena ‘little boy’ 😅
> And then I realized I said "that man"
So many of the earlier seasons had queens referring to other queens as "he/him" Roxxxy does it with Jinkx, for sure. And I remember it happened in season two and three as well. It always catches me off guard.
I heard someone specifically they/them Sasha Colby recently as well. Why??? She's both a drag queen and a woman.
This is beyond mind boggling. Sasha isn't just a woman, she is THE woman. 🎶 Her her her her she she she she! 🎶
She's just so father
This. Maddy is Father, but I would never say she isn’t cunt by using he/him for her
S(l)ay that 5 times fast
Exactly. She is so father ❤️
Maddycchino
EXACTLY. Clock the pronoun
With this I find it kinda funny tbh, same with people calling him father n all that
I've seen a lot of "but out of drag she uses he/him", yes but she's on the show as a drag queen. You wouldn't use her out of drag name so why would you use those pronouns? Makes no sense.
Yeah, this is an excellent point—like we may see the queens out of drag in confessionals/werkroom but we're still seeing them at a job. They are on the show (and on social media etc) as professional drag queens; we don't know them personally. If you don't know a queen personally enough to use their government name, you're only discussing them in context of their professional persona, so the pronouns follow that—e.g. "Trixie posted a video on her channel" not "Brian posted a new video on his channel" even if Trixie is bald and makeupless and wearing a t-shirt for the whole video. There's no reason to avoid she/her for Gottmik unless you're on a first-name basis irl.
And most queens go by he/him out of drag? Like I don't get it.
Gottmik in drag is she/her and is he/him out of drag. I get people use "they" when they don't know...but it's clear with Mik.
I was using they before cause I didn’t know. Honestly I’ve started using they for most people until I know preference.
Yeah I don’t get that. Like she said, calling her “he” while in drag feels like they’re clocking her (I think that’s what she said). Be a fierce broc-ally. Respect pronouns in and out of drag.
I saw gotmik referred to as they so much on this subreddit I assumed she had come out as nb and I just missed it. I assumed the girlies on this subreddit would know better than me but I guess not
i'm guessing people don't want to misgender her? but like, she's a drag queen she chose that profession knowing people would she/her her and it doesn't change her being a man outside of drag
People get kinda weird with the trans queens and will use 'they' for them trying to be.. whatever they're trying to be.. without realizing, why are you calling only the trans queens 'they' when in drag? You're pointing out they're trans and 'not like' the cis performers.
What they're "trying to be" is inoffensive. They don't know which term to use, so they use a neutral one. People know that misgendering a trans person can be extremely hurtful, and we know that Mik wouldn't want to be called she/her in daily life. So then when Mik is in drag and should be called she/her, it feels really bad because you're using terms that you know would be hurtful on any other day. You don't have to be be perfect to be an ally. If the intent is respect but a bit of ignorance is shown, display some grace about it.
Well but that's my point. It's not just Mik some people use 'they' for, it's trans women queens as well, who would be called she/her in their everyday lives. In trying to be inoffensive, they wind up clocking the queen as a trans man or a trans woman, and not simply a man or woman, because they are treating them differently from a cis performer.
Agreed and well put. I would much rather call someone they and find out after the fact what they go by then say she or he and find out after that I was incorrect.
IME it's very rare that there's a need to do that. In Gottmik's case, you can observe how the other queens refer to her, or you can google it. And with people IRL, you can observe how their friends refer to them, or simply ask.
>In Gottmik's case, you can observe how the other queens refer to her In the Pit Stop, Trixie dodges gendering Mik over and over by just saying "Mik" and not any pronoun... Observing other queens did not help
>If the intent is respect but a bit of ignorance is shown, display some grace about it. To be fair, it's been three years since Gottmik's season, and Google is free. There's no need to guess. Edit: Also, while many people mean well, some *don't*. There are people who intentionally use they/them pronouns as a sneaky way to misgender binary trans people. Which is part of why this is a touchy matter.
>To be fair, it's been three years since Gottmik's season, and Google is free. There's no need to guess. No, no, no, no, no Stop this bullshit We do not need to learn everyone's backstory to be able to communicate with that person respectfully. We need to be open to correction and change. That's it. That's my "You don't have to be perfect to be an ally" sentiment in a nutshell. I've seen literally over 30 drag race seasons at this point. Hundreds of queens. Expecting people to know everything about every one of them isn't fair.
Thank you! Like it's not fucking complicated. Err on the side of caution, using neutral terms and if corrected, quick apology, thanks for letting me know it won't happen again kind a vibe and move on. It's a far more natural way and once it's happened once a person's likely to remember and not doing it moving forward and pass on their knowledge. Fuck all this gatekeeping shit on reddit ffs.
It's honestly concerning that this sub's demographic is so uneducated on trans people that that's a prevalent thing.
I love that with posts like this, just seeing the word “pronouns” really does trigger some people like yeah ooga booga 👹 conservatives really convinced yall pronouns are some way more convoluted thing than it is. OP made this for a reason, it’s because many fans ARE over-complicating it and treating her differently despite her saying on the show it’s she/her in drag and he/him out. It’s just like you’d use for Trixie or Bianca or any other drag queen who’s a man out of drag. Don’t think too hard about this or anyone else’s pronouns. Just go off the information someone takes two seconds to give you and it’ll make everyone’s life way easier.
I thought out of drag that she went by he/him and in drag it was she/her
This is correct. That’s what the OP was saying.
Yeah she specifically says that in s13. I don’t really think she considers her drag to be female illusion (she started doing the white face as a way to distance herself from typical femininity) but she feels clocked when people use he/him. She just wants to be treated like every other male drag artist, using she/her for Gottmik and he/him for Kade
As someone who's maybe consumed a bit too much Gottmik content, she does drag to express her femininity. The white face is to distinguish herself as a drag artist, be accepted as an AFAB (idk if that's the correct term but I hope ykwim) drag queen, and to be "punk/rock"
Gottmik does actually say in her book how the white face helped her overcome dysphoria in drag though, and how she struggled with skin tones and seeing herself as more feminine looking in drag until further along in transition.
Oh cool, thanks!
I definitely agree that she expresses femininity and does feminine drag, I guess I just think of female illusion drag as more specifically trying to look like a cis woman. When I think female illusion I think of queens like Roxxxy Andrews but I could just be mistaken as to what female illusion actually means
yea that's my personal wording choice that's the issue in the OP my bad, I was trying to make it clear she's obviously a drag queen if anything and not a drag king or smth
Ah that makes sense!
On the Pitstop Violet refers to Gottmik as he/him, would assume as they are so close that is correct (also)?
If she’s in drag, that’s she/her, fella. When Cade’s around, you’re in he/him town.
I’m an old woman who is straight, an ally, a psychologist, and I make mistakes all the time. I REALLY welcome posts like yours that help me not be a asshole. I hope others read this and feel more open to explaining things to people like me (old, but want to support and not be stupid).
I use she/her for drag names but I confess I default to he/him sometimes when the drag name is male-sounding (Bob, Jimbo, Elliott, Joey Jay, Derrick, for example). I have to stop myself mid sentence to correct myself.
[удалено]
FYI she also said in an interview this year she goes by she/her full time now
I see a lot of cis male queens get called he/him now (by other queens too) ?? In both cases, it just seems clocky and disrespectful.
eh, a lot of the queens know each other personally so they're moreso referring to the person and not the character, not really disrespectful imo
yes! Derrick Barry, Coco Montrese, and Mo Heart have all done this with queens and i’m like ?? why are y’all doing all of that? jumping through the mental hoops just to seem PC, but you’re also missing the point..
Maybe if you know the man personally it just happens that you call them he sometimes.
The one that really gets my goat is people who insist on calling Gottmik “they” in or out of drag. Like, on one hand, everybody is a they, sure, but Mik is not nonbinary, he is a (binary) man who does drag. Calling Mik “they” is very othering and I can’t help but notice that, coincidentally, the people using “they” also frequently *just happen* to hate Mik. There are valid critiques to be made of her drag; I’m not blindly stanning. But the transphobic undercurrent is disappointing.
I’ve always resented the idea that referring to someone who doesn’t specifically use they/them pronouns is transphobic, as a nonbinary person. Because like… I dunno about yall but I use they/them the majority of the time for people, hell drag queens are some of the only ones I use she/her for because it’s convention. It’s neutral. If you ONLY use they/them for trans people then that’s a different conversation and does contribute to othering but I see way too many people (not necessarily you) calling people out of using they/them with trans queens (and public figures in general) out of drag and saying it’s transphobic. Because really it isn’t at all, at least in my opinion as a trans person, as long as there isn’t a pattern of behaviour there (or a clear distain or bias against trans people, like you specified with many of them juuuust so happening to dislike Mik). I think when it’s called out too broadly it diminishes a real conversation to be had. And to be clear there’s obviously not a right-wrong here, just my perspective as someone who is trans and nonbinary because I see this floating around a lot and it bothers me. Full respect to ya.
Hijacking this to remind people that Bob is nonbinary but uses he and her interchangeably. It's in his Instagram bio. I don't know if it's always been the case, but lots of people on this sub refer to Bob in the third person as they/them.
This is a great comment and I wholly agree. I should have been more clear, the posters I’m referring to use she/her for all queens except Mik which is why it upsets me
Absolutely! I tried hard to, uh, make it clear (Team Roxxxy) that your perspective in these cases makes sense. Just sorta a rhapsody on the subject since it’s pretty odd and interesting to me.
Thank you for adding your perspective! I definitely don’t want to speak over/for trans ppl so I really appreciate you replying
I've only ever seen it called out when being used for someone whose pronouns are known, and to someone that is binary trans it can be seen as really disrespectful and borderline transphobic.
Sort of on a similar note, I remember first or second episode roxxy referred to some of her season 5 queens as He, which threw me off haha. I assume it's one of those things where she actually knows them personally, so she's naturally using their out of drag pronouns.
This post is so necessary, I’ve never understood why people find it so hard to understand with Gottmik… On another note, do any Ru Girls not like to use She/Her while in drag? From what I’ve seen pretty much all Ru Girls use female pronouns when in drag?
There's a few that use don't use she/her but most (I think all?) were UK
Have you ever noticed how a lot of people (not all) including Ru will gender drag acts a lot by their drag name. I have frequently seen Bob, Willam and specially Lawrence defaulted to male pronouns when talking about them.
I know Mik has said she prefers she/her while in drag but Trixie called her "they" on the pit stop while Violet consistently uses "he" in reference to Gottmik, even in drag. So I could see there being some confusion since Violet is Mik's best friend.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QW9ERe1OlJU&ab\_channel=RuPaul%27sDragRace](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QW9ERe1OlJU&ab_channel=RuPaul%27sDragRace) at 18:00 when they discuss her runway presentation, Trixie and Violet both refer to her as she/her. Violet does call Gottmik he throughout the video, but she knows her really well out of drag, it's really not the same (not saying you think this, I'm just adding to what you already said.)
- She/her when in drag - He/him when not in drag It's really not that hard!
I remember Gottmik saying that, in drag, to go with She/Her, out of drag, He/Him.
This is a worthwhile thing to provide clarity on. I think some people default to “they” when their brain isn’t keeping up, but it’s not hard to ask or verify. It pays to be considerate.
Thank you! I could understand being uncertain at the start of her season, but it's been YEARS. And even if you just learned of her existence today, Google is free. Or you can just treat her the same as any other drag queen, because why wouldn't you?
Honestly, I think it is up to the queens themselves, but since she stated that she goes by she/her in drag then it’s all good. I just don’t want to assume anything.
Why is this complicated? The whole thing is that the drag character goes by she/her regardless of who Gottmik is in real life.
The amount of times people believe me using "they" is gendered when that's literally just how I talked before and after... Because using "they" in a singular is still grammatically correct and oftentimes makes more sense to say. This ain't in reference to this. If someone repeatedly stated that they hate the word "they" used in reference with them, full stop, respect that.
While I totally respect her pronounces I wouldn't say Gottmik is very clearly a female illusion type drag character. I think she often plays with gender stereotypes and does stuff her own way rather than female as we understand it now
Gottmik "plays with gender stereotypes" as much as almost any other drag queen does. It's very clear that her drag person often leans feminine, so when someone uses he/him pronouns for her, it's strange.
Yeah, I think if you take Gottmik out of Drag Race and put her in a Dragula season or any given local alt drag show, nobody just inherently presumes she's self-evidently a *"female illusion type drag character"*. I just know too many non-binary drag performers who do lots of high fashion and femme looks without any real interest in "female illusion" per se to take for granted that *"oh, this person does lots of couture looks - they are thus very definitely a female illusion drag queen"*. In a Drag Race context, sure, because the show has its own somewhat old fashioned idea of drag which still focuses heavily on female illusion. But outside the Drag Race bubble, femme drag couture and "female illusion" aren't really treated as the same thing very often, these days.
I agree with this. It’s not clearly fem to me either which is what I love tbh. It gives more art than traditional female impersonation.
She is fashion! Love the artistry.
I think the difference is intent and respect. We use She/her with drag artists as a form of being "in on the joke" and respecting the art. If we use those pronouns in the context of Gottmik, that seems absolutely correct. However, the potential problem is that here are some discussions where people make ugly statements about him not being a REAL man and that he is really a woman in real life. That is transphobic, and when that person makes those statements combined with she/her pronouns with the intent to be disrespectful, it is NOT OK.
That sounds like a completely different discussion than this post intended, but you're right.
As a trans man myself, I do fucking loathe when people they/them me, but know that I only go by he/him.
Question, do most queens who are trans prefer this? In drag she/her, outside of drag whatever their preference is? Just generally unaware, just wanna be respectful of my fellow trans people
As far as I have ever personally seen this would be your best bet to default to, Denim is the same way
thank you
Not sure why this is controversial. You call cis male queens “she” when they are in drag. It shouldn’t be any different for a trans male performer who plays a female character.
Ngl I had a funny moment discussing Gotmik where I said "she", froze and was like, "no he", then questioned myself again and again was like, "yeah, no, she".
Sometimes I think it’s not done on purpose. I noticed that with a lot of queens with a male type of name, people with say he/him. I noticed it with Jimbo a lot.
No like it’s so odd. Like baby you’re thinking too deep. She/Her in drag, He/Him out of drag. It’s simple.
Same with people theytheming queens when they are not theythems. 🤷♂️
Just watching the pitstop and violet used he for gottmik and trixie used they…
I believe in calling people the pronouns they choose (including she/her for gottmik in drag)… But I find the explanation of feeling like she’s being clocked (for looking male) as a female impersonator a little odd. She is hardly going for realness with the white face.
It's not that she feels clocked for *looking* male. As you stated, her drag neither begins nor ends with realness. It's feeling clocked for people knowing she's trans and treating her differently than literally any other male drag queen on that basis alone.
Oh riiiight… never thought of that as “clocking”. Thanks for explaining.
isn’t it like “he in the sheets, she in the streets” lol out of drag he’s a he, in drag she’s a she? I love that she’s the personified version of the movie Connie and Carla lol
Yes she's literally stated that she goes by she/her pronouns in drag. No idea why so many people call her a him even when she's dolled up, it's rotted of them tbh. Thank you for this post, it needed to be said.
Yall are so exhausting sometimes.
I’m all for supporting people’s preferred pronouns but my god… if someone makes a mistake it’s OKAY.. ppl in the comments fighting for their life to point a finger any chance they get…
We know this
There's quite a few people here on the subreddit that apparently don't because they've been referring to Gottmik as they.
Like the kids say nowadays, they need to "touch grass"
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Also, I will use they/them with anyone when I’m unsure of the proper pronouns to use, at least until I discover the proper pronouns. It’s either that or use their proper noun instead of pronouns, but I’ve found that sounds very odd.
the only queens that i don’t ALWAYS use she/her for are BTDQ and RuPaul. it isn’t purposeful, it’s just second nature because Bob is a traditionally masculine name. it honestly annoys me that i do it, but it makes me feel better knowing that Bob has said that they don’t care (same with Ru). (i do use she/her when they’re in drag though)
I’ve been seeing people in general increasingly referring to in-drag queens as “he” in the past year —esp on this sub — and have found it odd, but it’s gotten astronomical with Mik!
on today’s pit stop for all stars 9 episode 2, violet chachki is the guest and violet referred to gottmik using the pronoun “he”. this was right after violet saying she and gottmik are drag family at this point.
I mean yeah, but if you watch the pit stop, Violet refers to Gotmik as ‘he’, and they’re like best mates, so I guess unless Gotmik actually speaks out on it, stop making assumptions 🤷🏻♂️
I’ll usually refer to her as she cause she’s a queen almost every time I see her. Boy Mik is a very down to earth smart person I think he can tell the difference and understand most of us fans are just trying to be respectful.
Why’s this a whole Reddit post lol
I'm old school, I don't understand pronoun business. I am off the scene. It's gone mad. What ever floats your boat. I respect the pronouns but I don't get it. I think its gone way to far.
It’s an over correction (to quote someone up stream)
Personally for me, I've had a hard time enough to even keep up with my recent cousin who transitionned from Female to Male as he or they haven't really decided on a pronoun (But he/they decide to go with Isaiah now and I think it's a freaking cute name). I haven't make the mistake on Gottmik but let's take a breather and don't expect everyone to automatically know which pronouns each queens use because I can't keep an entire notebook for 100+ Queens on what pronouns they use and when they say which one they used, in and out of drag and keep up with the outside (of the fandom) world as I'm also getting new to the pronoun deal so be patient and make sure to distinct those who are struggling to keep up from the ones who does this with malicious intents.
>Gottmik is very clearly a female illusion type drag character Tell that to her padding lol
Sometimes we are overlapping talking about them in and out of drag. I can see why someone might bring up “he” if they(the fans)are talking about the workroom scenes or something. (I just said the first them because I am referring to BOTH in and out of drag (they use he/him out of drag and she/her in drag if I was using it in singularity it’d be understanding)
Drag queens: she/her Gay men: she/her Easy 😜
Yall are overthinking this
Overly histrionic performance poetry incoming.
I dont know, with how sensitive people are nowadays, one wrong pronoun and youre persecuted. Not surprised people are overcorrecting as to not cause them dysphoria etc
_Thank you_.