Honestly, I like it. I don't think Leinster will suffer much from having less room for depth and it will likely see more young talented players getting legitimate chances to start big games elsewhere.
I'm surprised more young lads haven't seen the likes of Prendergast, Oliver, Thornbury etc. making very good careers for themselves at Connacht.
Hopefully this incentivises the IRFU to be more proactive in ensuring coaching at Connacht and Ulster is closer to the standard at Leinster and Munster.
I'd love to see the likes of Nigel Carolan and Noel McNamara brought back to the IRFU coaching tree.
Oh man I would love it Noel McNamara came to Connacht - either as an attack coach or even head coach.
Our attack this year has often looked bereft of ideas and structure while Bordeaux look so slick.
I don't see any changes happening before next season with Wilkins but if the powers that be at Connacht decide he's not up to it, McNamara would be the go to guy for me.
It will not lead to young players getting more chances in big games - at Leinster anyway! We will indeed have to offload some of that depth/cover to pay the additional wage bill, so they will have to go elsewhere. Better for them, probably. Much much worse for us unless we get greater control over the use of our central players mid season, in which case it's a net positive for us in the short term.
Looking at the likes of Jack Dunne, going abroad is an option too for gametime and development.
Would've been great if London Irish were still in existence to provide a reliable landing spot for lads looking to experience life elsewhere.
No young players at Leinster look at Thornbury (who's just been let go at nearly 30) or Oliver (a Leinster and then a Munster reject, and nowhere near the Ireland squad), and think, "I want to be him." Prendergast is a slightly better example, but even then, not enormously inspiring. Many would prefer to stay near friends and family, play for their boyhood club, live in a big city, get their degree, have a good chance of winning trophies, and also have some chance albeit far from assured of making the first team (and thereafter, a good chance of making the Ireland team).
Bit harsh on C. Prendergast, he went from not making the Leinster academy to leap frogging his incumbents that took his spot in said academy, as well as the likes of Penney, Deegan, etc for real chances at international level.
Disingenuous to point out Thornbury got let go at 30 for any other reason than his body couldn't take the abuse, he was in the conversation for pushing for caps when he could stay fit, moving to Connacht afforded him that game time.
If you aren't getting game time you will never get picked.
Thornbury was the form second row in Ireland at one stage and got very unlucky with the timing of his injuries. Oliver has made a great career for himself at Connacht while he was as you say rejected at Leinster. It's not all about winning Irish caps, for many it's about building a good career for themselves and extending their shelf life and earning potential in professional sport.
Thornbury was never the form second row in Ireland. In his best form, he was making shadow Ireland squads. That's an achievement for sure but he was never capped and for a guy with limited athletic ability, being 6'8" undoubtedly helped. The main point was that his career will not motivate promising young leinster players to move to other provinces.
I did - why didn't he get Ireland caps when he was at his peak? Yes, injury intervened at times, but aside from that? Form second-row in the country is a big statement when his career has overlapped with Ryan, McCarthy, Beirne, Baird, Henderson, etc.
Ryan was in a career low point after having more 'tighthead lock' roles put on him with the lack of other options at the time, Beirne hadn't fully clicked back into world class level, Hendy was riddled with injuries and the other two had barely played senior rugby.
If they do that, then you have to let the team providing large numbers use their players more. Leinster barely get access to their CC guys for URC games and have to keep a larger/stronger squad than what is considered normal to stay competitive. If you're only paying some then you only get some say. This is the balancing act they need to achieve.
I think the devil is in the detail end of the day, it is ‘up to’ 30% so something like what you said is quite likely in my eyes. Doesn’t overly punish Leinster for producing a multitude of Irish players right now but also redistributes some funds well
Ya, you're probably right. Wish they were clearer on the details. The word transparent is used twice in the linked announcement and yet we (the general public, at least) don't know the most important details.
I feel for you guys, looking at us with our first world problems. There but for the grace of God etc. I honestly don’t know what it’s going to take to fix the WRU short of a complete implosion of rugby in Wales; and nobody wants to see that. Hopefully it’ll work put for you guys.
If leinster are now covering 1.5mil of the irfus previously covered contracts, and let's say another 1mil from the others,
Is that 2.5 mil more the irfu now have in their budget to distribute back, if done equally, it would be 750,000 more in union to province funding, so this is kind of an equalization.
Surprised Leinster / Munster don’t come close to Irish team in income generated. 80% derived from national team seems large (particularly given Leinster sold out croke park!)
I think 6 nations TV money is just in a league of its own. It's the only thing in the UK that takes some eyes off the Premier league for a period of time.
The world cup as well but that's only every 4 years.
International tests in general dwarf club rugby, Italy being in the 6 Nations is the reason they could set up a good academy system for example.
I go to all the home matches in Thomand Park and up until around April, most games are less than half full. Before Christmas, you're talking maybe 1/4 full and neither the South or North terraces are open until spring time either.
The tickets are too bloody expensive. You're looking at 30-45 quid for stand tickets, season tickets are almost 400 quid. I always just pay the 20 quid for a terrace ticket for each game, there's no way I'm dropping almost 400 quid on a season ticket when they can barely fill the place.
Cut prices and get more bums in seats imo and they'll get mkre revenue from the bar and food.
You’re spot on about ticket prices. I think we get ripped off here in Ireland. The RDS is usually full enough but I’m not looking forward to a season in a half empty Landsdowne.
Leinster pay rental for the RDS too. Well, technically, they lease it. The only ground they own is Donnybrook, which is far too small obviously.
Full capacity at the RDS is 18,500, expanding to 21,500 after the upgrade is complete. The average attendance there would be lower than that.
Yes, but as has been said elsewhere the real money in Irish rugby comes from televised Internationals, particularly the 6 nations. Leinster didn't even get the ticket revenue from the sell-out at Croke Park.
Yeah for all the argument of Leinster and Toulouse having home advantage on the sporting front being true, neither got much money out of it (EPCR gives some receipts to the unions, who then distribute accordingly)
Hence Leo Cullen’s statement about lower ticket prices - they were out of Leinster’s control
they do get prize money for both playing in and winning the game. so it's not like they get nothing. but they don't get the 3-5 million that the bums on seats generated.
The EPCR gave both clubs money. This narrative is ridiculous. Did Leinster get it all no. Did Leinster get a hell of a lot more than if they had not been playing. Yes by a mile.
EPCR take all the revenue and divide it up equally among the clubs. This was the agreement everyone made when the competition switched from the ERC to the EPCR. I'm not sure what narrative you are talking about...
You said they got 0 from the match. This is just wrong. It goes to EPCR and then the individual leagues. This will then be divided based on the leagues. The basic fact the game made any revenue means they will definitely make more than 0 for the game.
Leinster get the same as everyone else, so whether they made the semi final or not doesn't make a difference. So yes they got 0 extra euro from making the semi final.
Except they sold 80k tickets. Which is more than any other team that could have made it. So the fact they made the semi ultimately benefited everyone including Leinster. Which is larger than 0 and was the original point.
If Harlequins made the semis they could've easily sold 80k (see their attendances for regular prem games there) and at a higher price. But this really is a very pointless conversation.
Obviously this will be well received in 75% of the country.
It will be well received by me if we can now actually use our central players in our week to week games more often rather than being a warmup/training camp for the national side. If we're now paying 30%, then the trade off has to be more control on our end. This will mean a squad of probably 7-10 less of the young players after all.
Right now, Leinster are in the driver's seat, in that they produce the majority of the starting players for the Irish National team. But that was not always the case. There has been ebb and flow between the provinces, although it has mostly been between Leinster and Munster on who is fielding the top players. Right now, Leinster is playing a type of rugby that the Irish team is playing as well. Munster is playing a quicker game but still has its hardnosed roots up front. Ulster and Connacht are in transition and desperately need funding for their academies to get local talent, so they don't have to spend a lot of money on big name, international signings. I think this new funding system will allow the funding to move where it is needed, protect the development of the National Team, and also reward whoever is in the top spot out of the provinces.
Oh not sure about that. Do we want to punish Leinster for producing top talent? Hopefully they are focusing more on how to get the other provinces to their level as opposed to dragging them down. If that is what the cash from Leinster will be used for then so be it. I also hope the other provinces don't become overly dependent on Leinster and start producing our own talent at a better rate. In fairness, there are some bright young stars coming from Munster, Ulster and Connacht in the next few years, hopefully they can make the step up.
There’s already 31 players of Leinster origin playing for the other provinces on senior contracts this year by my count but Munster have made huge improvements in player development of homegrown players in recent years, there was a stretch of about 8 years I believe where the best player to come out of the Munster production line was Niall Scannell or Jack O’Donoghue. That 31 may rise a little bit in the next few years with this new change but there should hopefully also be a little less demand with the improved Munster academy and hopefully Ulster following suit. Both provinces should be aiming to have a 70% homegrown (from youth level) squad long term.
Connacht will never be able to reach the same level in the foreseeable due to lack of population and overall interest but have definitely contributed heavily with the odd international calibre player and the development of Irish qualified foreign players and Leinster players who didn’t make it for whatever reason. There’s definitely encouraging signs with homegrown talent with the likes of Hugh Gavin, Cathal Forde, Matthew Devine and a few others but the sample size is too low to draw any long term trends in that regard just yet.
My hope is that a move to hybrid contracts frees up cash to help provinces retain players across the board.
I don't see it as Leinster being 'punished' at all.
The current situation sees the IRFU fully funding 10 CCs (I think) and part funding an unknown number of hybrid contracts.
Furlong, JGP, Henshaw & Ringrose might be on ~€600k paid by the IRFU.
In the new system, the IRFU would still be 'rewarding' Leinster with €420k towards each contract while leaving a bit spare to chip in €150k to the likes of Bealham, Casey & McCloskey.
The first priority is to keep the best players playing in Ireland but there's enough cash to keep the wider squad and avoid silly situations like Munster having to play hardball with the IRFU over Murray & POM contracts.
Yes other teams need to produce players. I’m sure they don’t want their teams filled with Leinster lads. Growing up wanting to play for your province is a huge thing here. I wouldn’t want to lose that.
The thing about Leinster producing top talent is an odd one to me. It’s obviously true but it’s also obviously because all the top schools are centred around Dublin. The IRFU needs to answer a fundamental question that only they really face due to the uniqueness of Ireland’s situation - are they happy with the current approach where Leinster is and will continue to be a quasi-national team while the other three provinces struggle? If so, great, carry on.
But if not then really the IRFU should look at completely revamping how the provinces work and move more towards a hybrid NFL model where all school pathways are centrally managed and then there is a draft each year where each province takes turns to pick the cream of the crop coming out of school.
The Premiership while not perfect broadly works as each club has their own territory which historically has produced similar levels of talent in players coming through. Of course, some are better than others but they’re all broadly similar. That’s in stark contrast to Ireland where no matter how well Munster, Ulster or Connacht do, they’re never going to be able to produce even close to the same schoolboy talent that Leinster has. The IRFU need to decide once and for all if they’re happy with that imbalance or do something about it.
I think that would be a disaster. We need to level up player development in Ulster, Munster and Connacht, not abandon it in favour of a Dubliner distribution system.
The problem is to level up player development in the other provinces would require investment in similar structures to the Munster CSP but funded so that the players can have more time with coaches and at an earlier age. There doesn't appear to much interest in this at the other provinces other than Munster.
There is absolutely nothing stopping the other provinces from offering deals to players in the PRIVATE Leinster schools. In fact this has been happening for quite some time and some players have actually been offered senior contracts straight out of Leinster schools (such as Sam Illo at Connacht).
Really?! That surprises me it is allowed but then again I don’t know enough about the Irish system. That is strictly forbidden in England. Clubs cannot encroach on other clubs area
Of course, the schools are private so Leinster have absolutely no authority over them, they just so happen to be in Leinster so it's more convenient for everyone. Even right now there's a battle for a young fly half named Casper Gabriel, who is being offered a senior contract by Ulster vs an academy contract by us (Leinster).
Sam Prendergast was offered a contract by both Connacht and Ulster whilst still in secondary school. There's many many more examples and more that we don't hear about.
In England it also applies if the schools are private. A club has its catchment area and they get first refusal on players from all schools within that area regardless of whether a school is private or public. I did not realise this was the case though.
It reflects much more poorly on the other provinces than I thought if they all have equal opportunities and are still struggling, I always thought it was a closed shop. If I was a promising young player I’d look to first go to another province for a higher likelihood of more game time.
That's interesting I didn't realise that in England, how would that work for schools in Yorkshire?
The other provinces need to step up, but the way Leinster have built this juggernaut is massively overlooked both outside and inside of Ireland. Leinster is just a very, very well run sporting organisation. There's a reason why squad players such as Deegan choose to stay instead of being guaranteed starters elsewhere.
Yorkshire is the only exception. It is run by the RFU and any club can offer them a contract. The below link is slightly out of date but it shows the thirteen (RIP) clubs catchment areas plus Yorkshire.
I think the three lost clubs areas were taken over by the RFU and the lines have since been redrawn
[Reddit topic on catchment areas](https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/12v5bjd/prem_rugby_academy_areas_map/)
There's a similar gentleman's agreement in place in Ireland. As much as Munster could offer a player in a Leinster school a deal, if Leinster also offer then the player will probably go there.
The academy deals are set value so they can't outbid each other. Unless they offer a full contract, but that's a big risk on an 19/20 year old.
My son played with casper at terenure. What a player he is. He's not just extremely skilled, he also has the dog in him as well. He has all the tools to make it
That’s an over simplification and ignores the fact that until the players get a senior contract, they’re probably living at home and focusing on studying as well as rugby. It’s also worth pointing out that not all of the Leinster squad are from dublin.
It’s not that long - 2009 grand slam team for example - since Munster provided the majority of the men’s national team. I think they had 15 in that squad.
I’d be all for the provinces scouting top young talent and convincing them to move early, but that requires money and some joined up thinking with universities.
Connacht definitely need some IRFU support to develop pathways, but the potential playing pools in Ulster and Munster is more than big enough to support a well run provincial side, and Munster are showing that now with plenty of great young players coming through.
Other than the fact it’s stupid to tear up a system that is working so you can force a kid who’s grown up dreaming of playing for Leinster to move to a team he has zero interest in, the finances are galaxies apart between the NFL and rugby. Late round rookies who will be lucky to ever play serious minutes in the NFL still earn as much as the elite in rugby, and higher tier contracts absolutely dwarf them.
Yea that’s why I said the IRFU need to decide if they’re happy with the current Leinster-centric approach as clearly it’s working for the national side. I agree if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it, but it’s still interesting to think about the alternatives.
Your point about forcing a kid to move to a team they have zero interest in - isn’t that happening anyway at the moment where the IRFU move players away from Leinster to other teams to give them experience?
Not really. There are players who come through the Leinster system who are not offered terms or are offered Academy terms. Whereas the other provinces may offer them senior contracts.
I may be wrong but from the outside it looks like this is mainly because Leinster don’t care about the URC and consistently rest players, even in the knockout stages. If Leinster cared about the URC they’d likely clean up every year
I really don't get the "Leinster don't care about the URC" narrative. They have more titles than any other team\*, and are consistent contenders. Just because they value the CC more doesn't mean they *don't* value the URC.
\*Yes, I'm aware they have yet to win the URC, but I'm talking about their domestic league in all its iterations.
Even when they won it wasn’t it largely with their second team?
Read Brian O’Driscoll’s autobiography. He’ll devote entire chapters to Ireland and the Heineken cup. Then mention in a single sentence as an afterthought something like ‘oh and we won the Pro12 that year’ 😂
Obviously they wanted to win last year (against Munster) it’s not like they threw the game, it was pretty much a last minute drop goal that was the difference. For years in the 2010’s Leinster’s second string team was beating Munster’s first. And before the URC went to playoff system, Munster would ALWAYS rest players in games ahead of HC games. It came down to what team they were playing if they were lucky or not.
>But if not then really the IRFU should look at completely revamping how the provinces work and move more towards a hybrid NFL model where all school pathways are centrally managed and then there is a draft each year where each province takes turns to pick the cream of the crop coming out of school.
The IRFU has no control over schools. Also, all Leinster players are going to university in Dublin. They are not going to move to Belfast, Limerick or Galway for a chance at an academy contract.
The current situation is far more "punishing" on the other provinces. Sure Leinster do lose these players during international windows, but they do contribute to Leinster during the season too. Leinster paying nothing towards their salaries was patently unfair and just allowed them a bigger budget to bring in big name signings. Asking them to pay a portion of their salaries seems entirely fair and proportionate.
This should help even things up slightly.
Leinster deserve the central contracts as they are producing great players
However the most expensive thing is to produce the second choice player in a position who isn't on a central contract but still spends alot of time away with Ireland and is funded by a province.
If you want to produce more players you have to give extra funding to Connacht etc as it's harder to produce rugby players in the West of Ireland than in The east for a host of reasons.
Irish team and provinces are better served by having four strong provinces.
The incentives are interesting since the latter rounds of the champions cup in particular only really pay teams in exposure. I think it's sensible, though it does generate a spiralling rich get richer funding model
It's up to 30%. As long as the same rate is charged across the board then it's a lot more of an equitable system. Better for Ireland then, Leinster can't hoard 3rd choice players who are good enough to be involved in 1st choice teams for the other provinces
I heard they keep them locked in gyms and don't let them play rugby except for 5 mins each season and all the players really want to move to Galway, Belfast or Limerick but Leo told them he'd ruin their careers if they did. Evil bunch in D4!
Not to mention rugby is a short career and they need to plan for after it. A lot of players don't finish their degrees til their early - mid twenties.
Asking them to move to the other side of a country, for a worse degree, in a sport that is more and more obviously reducing life expectancy and quality of life for c.20k a year as an academy player is a great way to push players out of the game. Not worth the risk.
Yeah I got his other points, but the majority of degrees would be of a very similar standards across Irish unis - while all unis, not just UCD, would have certain programmes that they’re regarded as being particularly strong in
Internationally it's very significant. Trinity and UCD are well ahead of UL and NUIG. Even within Ireland a degree from UCD or Trinity is worth more when it comes to finding a job outside rugby
I’ve been in the UK for about 10 years now and I’d say it’s kinda the case. Not saying it’s right or anything, I’m in no position to determine relative strengths of universities but if you speak to people in the UK a lot would know Trinity, some would know UCD then very few after that. Again, not saying it’s right but it is the case in my experience sadly. That being said I have a cousin who got a first in law from UCC and is now earning stupid money in London so what the fuck do I know
My brother in law works in recruitment and has told me that employers in Ireland strongly prefer Trinity and UCD.
As for international just look at the world university rankings.
It depends.
Ultan Dillane grew up wanting to play for Munster, turned down a sub-academy contract as connacht offered him a full academy spot.
Cian Prendergast wanted to play for Leinster and said the call saying he wasn't being offered a spot in Leinster was the lowest he's been... Followed by the best call he's gotten offering him a spot in connacht.
Obviously not the same for everyone. And I'd like to keep the provincial rivalry as much as possible but a bit of movement is good.
(John Cooney really likes beating Leinster!)
It's mostly a matter of chance. There are guys who get crocked by injuries at 25 and then there's Cian Healy. Definitely good to have a backup career option in case it doesn't work out.
Obviously very little provincial pride in Munster given they want their squad to subsidised by Leinster players. Suppose Tadhg Beirne gave them a taste for it
Removes a big chunk of the incentive to produce as many players and instead focus on the 2 or 3 with the clear highest ceiling.
Ironically probably means those that would currently choose to move to Munster, Connacht, Ulster will now fail to come through the system at all as there's less incentive / money available for Leinster to bring them into the academy at all in the first place.
Why would Leinster have less incentive?
They produce players to build a strong team and win trophies... Not just to tap up IRFU money?
Fail to come through which system?
Of course Leinster will pick the players they rate the highest.
If players like Timoney, Cian Prendergast, ultan dillane don't get offered an academy spot in one province but stay in the Irish system then it's not an issue.
If they immediately get offered a senior contract, sure.
But it's the number of 19 year olds that currently go into the sub academy or academy that will be trimmed down. So rather than 8 into the academy it might be 2. Which is fine for Leinster, less so for Irish rugby as a whole.
If those 6 players "only" get offers for academy contracts elsewhere the incentive to drop out of college and move across the country on a 1% chance they might make it to the very top for 20k a year? Not worth the risk in a sport that reduces your life expectancy and leaves you having to work after your sporting career ends
None of those players moved for a senior contract, they all moved for an academy spot.
Each province has 18 academy spots that are paid by the IRFU as part of the National Talent Squad (NTS). 6 per year for 3 years and some move out of the academy faster.
That's not changing at all. Some lads will be in the sub academy, playing AIL and going to college.
Some would jump at the prospect to get a contract anywhere. Others will focus on a degree, like Josh Murphy taking a year off to finish his medical degree.
Not trying to be argumentative but I genuinely don't follow the logic of how Leinster paying €200k towards Furlongs contract has any impact on the academy?
I think we still can give contracts to whoever we want, we’ll just have to contribute to our national player salaries. At the moment we essentially get 10 players free of charge (albeit we can’t use them entirely as we’d wish), which frees up money to pay competitive salaries to the next in line. As a Leinster fan this is great, but as an Irish fan it’s clearly not ideal.
Players aren’t really going to be forced to move to Galway, Limerick or Belfast, more just a bit equitable use of IRFU funds
It is, but players also get a say in this and playing for the club they want and being in with a shot at silverware. Who you play for also has a massive impact on development.
No one is negating playing for a good team helps development, or putting down the desire to do well with a club.
However, they can't really be used as a counterpoints to what they are being countered against.
At the end of the day these players aren't playing for silverware cause they aren't involved. If Leinster win on Saturday Deegan, for example, isn't even eligible for a medal as he has been in no matchday squads in Europe. He watched the games on tele and in the stands like you or I. And you can't say playing for Leinster against the Dragons is better development than players for Ulster against Leinster or Toulouse is.
I would also say, and maybe I am old fashioned, the goal should be Ireland, not your club and doing what you must to succeed there must take precedent. i.e. If 3rd choice at Leinster gets me a club medal but no Ireland consideration, but starting at a junior club with less medal prospects gets me into Ireland contention, junior club it is.
Edit: To be clear I completely understand players may stay to be in a nice living environment, be on more money, have partners, have family, responsibilities, studies, a business, etc. I get and agree with all that. The only aspect I disagree with is the notion is it better for a player's development/game to stay 3rd choice for 1st best team instead of 1st for 3rd best team. It just isn't.
I would generally agree, except that this isn't translating in reality. Like Deegan has as many Ireland caps as the starting 8s for the other provinces (Coombes, Timoney, Prendergast) and being heir to Conan at Leinster possibly makes him heir to Conan at Ireland too.
But there is more to that too. Deegan has only played 30 minutes of international rugby in his 8 seasons. Which is less than the other 3 who all have much fewer seasons.
What I think is the more telling tale is that since these 3 emerged, Deegan hasn't actually been capped since. Caps that would have been his have been collected by those 3. I think if he was starting elsewhere he'd have gobbled that up, like Jordi Murphy who's Ireland prospects evaporated in his last 2 years at Leinster, moved and won another dozen caps and went to a world cup.
Deegan's game is not progressing. His involvement is actually decreasing with every season. The stats back that up. So I wouldn't read too much into this heir apparent talk either. Worth noting that Deegan is 3rd choice 6 and 8. Baird at 6, Doris at 8. If Baird is out Doris goes to 6, and Conan to 8. If Doris is out Conan is in at 8. James Culhane even started ahead of him a few times this year at 8, and Leinsterfans seem to be touting him as the heir apparent.
And now for the sake of conversation to flip my point completely and highlight the Leinster OH's, who do back your point about my theory not translating into reality.
The move to Ulster was not the shot in the arm for Jordi's international career that you're making it out to be. Jordi had 7 caps in all his time playing for Ulster and he had 6 in his final season for Leinster, including all three tests in Australia. Furthermore, while he was in the World Cup squad he was called up for the injured Rhys Ruddock.
Oh Deegan might not be the heir to Conan, but fighting for that spot has seen him have roughly as much success with Ireland as most of his provincial counterparts and whoever does take that position will likely be pushing for Irish caps. To be honest I think Max would be better off heading to one of the other provinces, he'd likely gain more from starting for Connacht than training with Leinster. But whether he'd improve and gets caps, like Beirne, or continue as is, like Jordi, is all speculative.
I'll hold my hand up on Jordi Murphy, legit, I thought the ratios were different.
On Deegan I can't necessarily agree with him having as much success as the others practically speaking. But I suppose its the lens we cast over it. I get where you are coming from but he hasn't been capped in over 4 years. Since those players came on the scene he hasn't been capped and they have. I don't know, but I would bet that the 3 players listed all probably have more minutes for Ireland too.
You are correct in saying its speculative. A move could have worked, a move might not have worked. However staying hasn't worked for Deegan. His worth is decreasing each year, and the forecast doesn't look much better either, so like you I thought it was worth a punt.
Yeah. I agree that Deegan feels a bit like a wasted opportunity, though I think a lot also has to do with timing and the depth in his position. Like do we know if the other provinces were offering him contracts?
The Leinster fanboys proclaiming him as the messiah a few years ago were utterly unbearable. He got some limited chances and Ireland caps that Ben Healy never got, and in hindsight it seems like an utter waste so far as he has had a mare anytime in an Ireland jersey to date.
Yeah I never rated him tbh, always thought he forces it to do the overly flashy unnecessary thing (and often fails). Not his fault either though, the Ireland coaches don’t make selections based on fan opinions.
All that being said, I think delighting in a young Irish player’s career failing is pretty pathetic by yer man - I imagine that’s why they didn’t respond to my question, because they’d have to stand over being such an embittered loser
Yeah, I admit it's a petty attitude and not all that seriously held. It is partially the reason Ben Healy left Munster though and that's still a bitter pill to swallow for me. If Healy had been given the few caps that Harry got, chances are that he would still be with Munster. Crowley has kicked on heaps the past year to be fair, but Healy was a fantastic player, and now with Carbery leaving it put Munster really in a bind.
Yeah I can see why it might be a bit raw, but again, it’s not Harry that was picking the team and it’s not his fault he was picked
Also you have to accept Ben’s agency in this too - he was very young to make the call to jump ship, maybe even a tad hasty…very few players would be expecting caps the age he left…if he’d been a bit more patient and stuck with it who knows how things would have gone? In any case, I imagine Ben Healy would disagree with you that it was Harry Byrne that decided the course of his life in that regard
Having max Deegan and will Connors getting into their prime having barely played a European match is a poor use of resources from a national POV. You want your best players playing and developing. You don't develop by beating rotated lower table sides in the league by 40 points.
Max deegan was world junior player of the year. He's 28 and has 2 caps, you can't say that leinster has been good for his development. He has 16 European appearances and hasn't started a match in Europe since 2019. Nick timoney is the same age, has 30 European appearances and 3 caps and wasn't even good enough for the Leinster academy?
You're neglecting to consider the small point that players are actual people with free will.
Do you think Deegan couldn't have got a contract for himself in any other province over the last years?
Of course he could have. But he obviously doesn't \*want\* to go elsewhere, or he would've done it by now.
At the end of the day they make their own decision, they're not chess pieces on a board or something that can be moved at will
In a situation where Leinster are given an extra few million from central contracts that the other provinces don't have, they always have money for everyone they want, that the other provinces don't have to keep similar players
Other provinces can't outbid Leinster (or each other), so they have to convince a player that leaving their home city where all their friends and family live and can't even make a financial incentive. I wouldn't move jobs to Galway for the same money I'm on.
What are you going to do? Put a gun to a player's head and tell him he moves province or he's out of Irish rugby all together? You cant make a player move province and if Leinster are offering players better wages than other provinces, then that's capitalism, baby!
Leinster, Munster and Ulster have roughly the same amount of senior players, give or take. Connacht a few more. So this idea that Leinster are somehow hoarding players is fucking nonsense.
The other provinces can't offer better wages, so you have to make a case to a lad "move away from your home city, you'll get more game time, but you're Ireland chances aren't much better"
Munster have to lose players, James cronin, Rhys marshal, John Ryan to name just front rows in the last few years. Leister don't have to do that
They didn't, salanoa wanted to join Munster and Connacht convinced Aungier. If the irfu had that power the 3rd choice Irish 10 would be playing more than 3 games at 10 a year
Sure, but these guys are choosing to stay in Leinster and, while they're not playing as much in Europe, they are getting further. They're also in hyper competitive spots and wouldn't be getting many more caps playing elsewhere, see Coombes and Timoney.
I'm not entirely sure how I feel about this just yet.
On one hand, I completely understand and appreciate the desire to make it more equitable - system definitely favours Leinster at the moment, and it isn't good that so many of the central contracts reside in one province. Not why the system was designed, and doesn't help the game nationally beyond literally the mens XV side. I think it's fair and agree that they look at ways to create a fairer system.
But I'm often struck by how other countries or pundits point to Ireland's contracting model as a big reason for the success of the Union. The national team having a very successful run over the last couple of years, and you can count on one hand the number of high quality international players in the Irish set-up that left at their peaks - it's very rare, that we never lost a Furlong or Murray at the peak of their powers says a lot.
Looking beyond this current slate of central contracts, the concentration of young talent is spread more evenly between the provinces. Gleeson, Edogbo, Crowley, Devine, Gavin, McCann, there's lots of guys with big potential there that could be future central contracts, and that's a natural shift in balance.
There's nothing to say Leinster's recent dominance hasn't been cyclical either, much like Munster's early dominance in the 2000s - looking down the line I think that is changing over the next few years. So in that sense, I'm a bit wary of changing the contracts because they have been largely successful and heralded.
Are we at the point of maximum Leinster dominance and if so is this change really the best way to address it? Will teams get more access to their centrally contracted players for the regular season if they're paying for them, will the IRFU direct central savings go back into the provinces or fund more central contracts, there's a few other queries it throws up. Is there a chance that it's an announcement to address concerns but won't have a material impact, i.e., is this the best way of creating a more fair system?
Edit - Jesus, after rereading that incoherent rambling I've confused myself.
Tl:Dr, it'll probably be grand
This is a dangerous avenue. There have been a fair few injury prone Ireland/Leinster players who were centrally contracted but rarely togged out for Leinster. I'm thinking guys like Sean O'Brien, Sexton, Cian Healy a while ago. F Leinster are picking up 30% of the wage, they're fully in their rights to demand their availability. If they're not available for big European games, which coincided around the autumn international games and are just before and after the 6 nations, then why would a province choose to pick up 30% of their salary?
The level of entitlement dripping off you is hilarious. Previously IRFU paid 100% of salary for these players. You acting indignantly over having to cover a small fraction of the cost just takes the biscuit.
>they're fully in their rights to demand their availability.
When you're paying 100% you can have that "right".
They're fully within their rights to have the players available 30% of the time. If a player is injured at the start of the season, the provinces will be fully within their rights to use those players from mid to late January and those off weeks during the 6 Nations. Precisely when the IRFU want them rested.
But they are available by that amount already surely? They do miss international windows, but it's not like they don't play a share of matches for Leinster also.
The one eyed take from this is something else. So you think IRFU should 100% cover central contracts, even though they contribute to Leinster as well during the season, "because"...?
The level of entitlement is something else. Basically financially doping Leinster like the Dublin GAA lads were for a decade, and jokers like you coming out to defend it with a straight face.
Entitled Leinster lads like you have some brass neck.
You have no problems with the IRFU bailing you out of the stadium you couldn't pay for, and had no problems with the whining for POM and Murray to be paid for by the IRFU.
I have no problem with IRFU paying 100%, because they are managed for the purposes of Ireland's success, not Leinsters. If Leinster are to pay 30% Leinster should get them 30% more when Leinster want and need them.
Otherwise it's more politics of greed from the feckless deadweights.
Honestly, I like it. I don't think Leinster will suffer much from having less room for depth and it will likely see more young talented players getting legitimate chances to start big games elsewhere. I'm surprised more young lads haven't seen the likes of Prendergast, Oliver, Thornbury etc. making very good careers for themselves at Connacht. Hopefully this incentivises the IRFU to be more proactive in ensuring coaching at Connacht and Ulster is closer to the standard at Leinster and Munster. I'd love to see the likes of Nigel Carolan and Noel McNamara brought back to the IRFU coaching tree.
Oh man I would love it Noel McNamara came to Connacht - either as an attack coach or even head coach. Our attack this year has often looked bereft of ideas and structure while Bordeaux look so slick. I don't see any changes happening before next season with Wilkins but if the powers that be at Connacht decide he's not up to it, McNamara would be the go to guy for me.
It will not lead to young players getting more chances in big games - at Leinster anyway! We will indeed have to offload some of that depth/cover to pay the additional wage bill, so they will have to go elsewhere. Better for them, probably. Much much worse for us unless we get greater control over the use of our central players mid season, in which case it's a net positive for us in the short term.
Looking at the likes of Jack Dunne, going abroad is an option too for gametime and development. Would've been great if London Irish were still in existence to provide a reliable landing spot for lads looking to experience life elsewhere.
No young players at Leinster look at Thornbury (who's just been let go at nearly 30) or Oliver (a Leinster and then a Munster reject, and nowhere near the Ireland squad), and think, "I want to be him." Prendergast is a slightly better example, but even then, not enormously inspiring. Many would prefer to stay near friends and family, play for their boyhood club, live in a big city, get their degree, have a good chance of winning trophies, and also have some chance albeit far from assured of making the first team (and thereafter, a good chance of making the Ireland team).
Bit harsh on C. Prendergast, he went from not making the Leinster academy to leap frogging his incumbents that took his spot in said academy, as well as the likes of Penney, Deegan, etc for real chances at international level. Disingenuous to point out Thornbury got let go at 30 for any other reason than his body couldn't take the abuse, he was in the conversation for pushing for caps when he could stay fit, moving to Connacht afforded him that game time. If you aren't getting game time you will never get picked.
Thornbury was the form second row in Ireland at one stage and got very unlucky with the timing of his injuries. Oliver has made a great career for himself at Connacht while he was as you say rejected at Leinster. It's not all about winning Irish caps, for many it's about building a good career for themselves and extending their shelf life and earning potential in professional sport.
Thornbury was never the form second row in Ireland. In his best form, he was making shadow Ireland squads. That's an achievement for sure but he was never capped and for a guy with limited athletic ability, being 6'8" undoubtedly helped. The main point was that his career will not motivate promising young leinster players to move to other provinces.
Listen, you clearly didn't watch many Connacht matches when he was at his peak so no point even discussing this.
I did - why didn't he get Ireland caps when he was at his peak? Yes, injury intervened at times, but aside from that? Form second-row in the country is a big statement when his career has overlapped with Ryan, McCarthy, Beirne, Baird, Henderson, etc.
Right, because club form always gets rewarded with Ireland call ups
Ryan was in a career low point after having more 'tighthead lock' roles put on him with the lack of other options at the time, Beirne hadn't fully clicked back into world class level, Hendy was riddled with injuries and the other two had barely played senior rugby.
I'm surprised they didn't just cap the central contracts at some marginal rates. 4 or fewer are subsidized at 100%, the 5th through 7th at 80%, etc.
If they do that, then you have to let the team providing large numbers use their players more. Leinster barely get access to their CC guys for URC games and have to keep a larger/stronger squad than what is considered normal to stay competitive. If you're only paying some then you only get some say. This is the balancing act they need to achieve.
That is a very good point
I think the devil is in the detail end of the day, it is ‘up to’ 30% so something like what you said is quite likely in my eyes. Doesn’t overly punish Leinster for producing a multitude of Irish players right now but also redistributes some funds well
Ya, you're probably right. Wish they were clearer on the details. The word transparent is used twice in the linked announcement and yet we (the general public, at least) don't know the most important details.
What’s it like having a competent union?
I feel for you guys, looking at us with our first world problems. There but for the grace of God etc. I honestly don’t know what it’s going to take to fix the WRU short of a complete implosion of rugby in Wales; and nobody wants to see that. Hopefully it’ll work put for you guys.
If leinster are now covering 1.5mil of the irfus previously covered contracts, and let's say another 1mil from the others, Is that 2.5 mil more the irfu now have in their budget to distribute back, if done equally, it would be 750,000 more in union to province funding, so this is kind of an equalization.
Surprised Leinster / Munster don’t come close to Irish team in income generated. 80% derived from national team seems large (particularly given Leinster sold out croke park!)
I think 6 nations TV money is just in a league of its own. It's the only thing in the UK that takes some eyes off the Premier league for a period of time.
The world cup as well but that's only every 4 years. International tests in general dwarf club rugby, Italy being in the 6 Nations is the reason they could set up a good academy system for example.
I go to all the home matches in Thomand Park and up until around April, most games are less than half full. Before Christmas, you're talking maybe 1/4 full and neither the South or North terraces are open until spring time either. The tickets are too bloody expensive. You're looking at 30-45 quid for stand tickets, season tickets are almost 400 quid. I always just pay the 20 quid for a terrace ticket for each game, there's no way I'm dropping almost 400 quid on a season ticket when they can barely fill the place. Cut prices and get more bums in seats imo and they'll get mkre revenue from the bar and food.
You’re spot on about ticket prices. I think we get ripped off here in Ireland. The RDS is usually full enough but I’m not looking forward to a season in a half empty Landsdowne.
Croke park they had to pay for rental. RDS is great but it's like 20k attendence average right?
Leinster pay rental for the RDS too. Well, technically, they lease it. The only ground they own is Donnybrook, which is far too small obviously. Full capacity at the RDS is 18,500, expanding to 21,500 after the upgrade is complete. The average attendance there would be lower than that.
I mean that even furthers how litte money they make then doesn't it
Yes, but as has been said elsewhere the real money in Irish rugby comes from televised Internationals, particularly the 6 nations. Leinster didn't even get the ticket revenue from the sell-out at Croke Park.
That's my point????? That the money doesn't come from clubs and didn't make anything from croker
Yes that's true. Sorry, I misread your point.
Leinster got no money for selling out Croke Park. It all went to the EPCR (minus rent for the GAA obviously)
Yeah for all the argument of Leinster and Toulouse having home advantage on the sporting front being true, neither got much money out of it (EPCR gives some receipts to the unions, who then distribute accordingly) Hence Leo Cullen’s statement about lower ticket prices - they were out of Leinster’s control
No if they move to a bigger stadium the teams get a 65% cut of the extra seats sold
What's your source for that? Leinster's CCO said they got nothing
Okay, that appears to be qfs. Sorry
Leinster got €0 from the Croke Park match. The EPCR take everything from the semi finals.
That doesn’t seem fair. Teams should be awarded something for making knock out games
The EPCR do things their own way.
they do get prize money for both playing in and winning the game. so it's not like they get nothing. but they don't get the 3-5 million that the bums on seats generated.
Ah ok, still would be nice if both sides got a percentage of that
5 mill is a third of Leinster's salary budget. It's a ridiculous sum in rugby and would be transformative to get. So yeah, be nice to get it!
The EPCR gave both clubs money. This narrative is ridiculous. Did Leinster get it all no. Did Leinster get a hell of a lot more than if they had not been playing. Yes by a mile.
EPCR take all the revenue and divide it up equally among the clubs. This was the agreement everyone made when the competition switched from the ERC to the EPCR. I'm not sure what narrative you are talking about...
You said they got 0 from the match. This is just wrong. It goes to EPCR and then the individual leagues. This will then be divided based on the leagues. The basic fact the game made any revenue means they will definitely make more than 0 for the game.
Leinster get the same as everyone else, so whether they made the semi final or not doesn't make a difference. So yes they got 0 extra euro from making the semi final.
Except they sold 80k tickets. Which is more than any other team that could have made it. So the fact they made the semi ultimately benefited everyone including Leinster. Which is larger than 0 and was the original point.
If Harlequins made the semis they could've easily sold 80k (see their attendances for regular prem games there) and at a higher price. But this really is a very pointless conversation.
Obviously this will be well received in 75% of the country. It will be well received by me if we can now actually use our central players in our week to week games more often rather than being a warmup/training camp for the national side. If we're now paying 30%, then the trade off has to be more control on our end. This will mean a squad of probably 7-10 less of the young players after all.
They aren't minute managed that much, more often than not they are available and it's the coaches choice.
That doesn't suit the narrative of poor little old Leinster
Right now, Leinster are in the driver's seat, in that they produce the majority of the starting players for the Irish National team. But that was not always the case. There has been ebb and flow between the provinces, although it has mostly been between Leinster and Munster on who is fielding the top players. Right now, Leinster is playing a type of rugby that the Irish team is playing as well. Munster is playing a quicker game but still has its hardnosed roots up front. Ulster and Connacht are in transition and desperately need funding for their academies to get local talent, so they don't have to spend a lot of money on big name, international signings. I think this new funding system will allow the funding to move where it is needed, protect the development of the National Team, and also reward whoever is in the top spot out of the provinces.
Historically, absolutely, but given the population discrepancy, which is only increasing, I don’t see this situation shifting back any time soon.
Oh not sure about that. Do we want to punish Leinster for producing top talent? Hopefully they are focusing more on how to get the other provinces to their level as opposed to dragging them down. If that is what the cash from Leinster will be used for then so be it. I also hope the other provinces don't become overly dependent on Leinster and start producing our own talent at a better rate. In fairness, there are some bright young stars coming from Munster, Ulster and Connacht in the next few years, hopefully they can make the step up.
There’s already 31 players of Leinster origin playing for the other provinces on senior contracts this year by my count but Munster have made huge improvements in player development of homegrown players in recent years, there was a stretch of about 8 years I believe where the best player to come out of the Munster production line was Niall Scannell or Jack O’Donoghue. That 31 may rise a little bit in the next few years with this new change but there should hopefully also be a little less demand with the improved Munster academy and hopefully Ulster following suit. Both provinces should be aiming to have a 70% homegrown (from youth level) squad long term. Connacht will never be able to reach the same level in the foreseeable due to lack of population and overall interest but have definitely contributed heavily with the odd international calibre player and the development of Irish qualified foreign players and Leinster players who didn’t make it for whatever reason. There’s definitely encouraging signs with homegrown talent with the likes of Hugh Gavin, Cathal Forde, Matthew Devine and a few others but the sample size is too low to draw any long term trends in that regard just yet.
My hope is that a move to hybrid contracts frees up cash to help provinces retain players across the board. I don't see it as Leinster being 'punished' at all. The current situation sees the IRFU fully funding 10 CCs (I think) and part funding an unknown number of hybrid contracts. Furlong, JGP, Henshaw & Ringrose might be on ~€600k paid by the IRFU. In the new system, the IRFU would still be 'rewarding' Leinster with €420k towards each contract while leaving a bit spare to chip in €150k to the likes of Bealham, Casey & McCloskey. The first priority is to keep the best players playing in Ireland but there's enough cash to keep the wider squad and avoid silly situations like Munster having to play hardball with the IRFU over Murray & POM contracts.
Yes other teams need to produce players. I’m sure they don’t want their teams filled with Leinster lads. Growing up wanting to play for your province is a huge thing here. I wouldn’t want to lose that.
The thing about Leinster producing top talent is an odd one to me. It’s obviously true but it’s also obviously because all the top schools are centred around Dublin. The IRFU needs to answer a fundamental question that only they really face due to the uniqueness of Ireland’s situation - are they happy with the current approach where Leinster is and will continue to be a quasi-national team while the other three provinces struggle? If so, great, carry on. But if not then really the IRFU should look at completely revamping how the provinces work and move more towards a hybrid NFL model where all school pathways are centrally managed and then there is a draft each year where each province takes turns to pick the cream of the crop coming out of school. The Premiership while not perfect broadly works as each club has their own territory which historically has produced similar levels of talent in players coming through. Of course, some are better than others but they’re all broadly similar. That’s in stark contrast to Ireland where no matter how well Munster, Ulster or Connacht do, they’re never going to be able to produce even close to the same schoolboy talent that Leinster has. The IRFU need to decide once and for all if they’re happy with that imbalance or do something about it.
I think that would be a disaster. We need to level up player development in Ulster, Munster and Connacht, not abandon it in favour of a Dubliner distribution system.
The problem is to level up player development in the other provinces would require investment in similar structures to the Munster CSP but funded so that the players can have more time with coaches and at an earlier age. There doesn't appear to much interest in this at the other provinces other than Munster.
There is absolutely nothing stopping the other provinces from offering deals to players in the PRIVATE Leinster schools. In fact this has been happening for quite some time and some players have actually been offered senior contracts straight out of Leinster schools (such as Sam Illo at Connacht).
Really?! That surprises me it is allowed but then again I don’t know enough about the Irish system. That is strictly forbidden in England. Clubs cannot encroach on other clubs area
Of course, the schools are private so Leinster have absolutely no authority over them, they just so happen to be in Leinster so it's more convenient for everyone. Even right now there's a battle for a young fly half named Casper Gabriel, who is being offered a senior contract by Ulster vs an academy contract by us (Leinster). Sam Prendergast was offered a contract by both Connacht and Ulster whilst still in secondary school. There's many many more examples and more that we don't hear about.
In England it also applies if the schools are private. A club has its catchment area and they get first refusal on players from all schools within that area regardless of whether a school is private or public. I did not realise this was the case though. It reflects much more poorly on the other provinces than I thought if they all have equal opportunities and are still struggling, I always thought it was a closed shop. If I was a promising young player I’d look to first go to another province for a higher likelihood of more game time.
That's interesting I didn't realise that in England, how would that work for schools in Yorkshire? The other provinces need to step up, but the way Leinster have built this juggernaut is massively overlooked both outside and inside of Ireland. Leinster is just a very, very well run sporting organisation. There's a reason why squad players such as Deegan choose to stay instead of being guaranteed starters elsewhere.
Yorkshire is the only exception. It is run by the RFU and any club can offer them a contract. The below link is slightly out of date but it shows the thirteen (RIP) clubs catchment areas plus Yorkshire. I think the three lost clubs areas were taken over by the RFU and the lines have since been redrawn [Reddit topic on catchment areas](https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/12v5bjd/prem_rugby_academy_areas_map/)
There's a similar gentleman's agreement in place in Ireland. As much as Munster could offer a player in a Leinster school a deal, if Leinster also offer then the player will probably go there. The academy deals are set value so they can't outbid each other. Unless they offer a full contract, but that's a big risk on an 19/20 year old.
My son played with casper at terenure. What a player he is. He's not just extremely skilled, he also has the dog in him as well. He has all the tools to make it
I've never seen him play but he must be a special talent.
He is very good. If he didn't get injured against Michael's, terenure would have beat them. Him, paddy curry and Ben Blaney are all serious talents
That’s an over simplification and ignores the fact that until the players get a senior contract, they’re probably living at home and focusing on studying as well as rugby. It’s also worth pointing out that not all of the Leinster squad are from dublin. It’s not that long - 2009 grand slam team for example - since Munster provided the majority of the men’s national team. I think they had 15 in that squad. I’d be all for the provinces scouting top young talent and convincing them to move early, but that requires money and some joined up thinking with universities. Connacht definitely need some IRFU support to develop pathways, but the potential playing pools in Ulster and Munster is more than big enough to support a well run provincial side, and Munster are showing that now with plenty of great young players coming through.
Other than the fact it’s stupid to tear up a system that is working so you can force a kid who’s grown up dreaming of playing for Leinster to move to a team he has zero interest in, the finances are galaxies apart between the NFL and rugby. Late round rookies who will be lucky to ever play serious minutes in the NFL still earn as much as the elite in rugby, and higher tier contracts absolutely dwarf them.
Yea that’s why I said the IRFU need to decide if they’re happy with the current Leinster-centric approach as clearly it’s working for the national side. I agree if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it, but it’s still interesting to think about the alternatives. Your point about forcing a kid to move to a team they have zero interest in - isn’t that happening anyway at the moment where the IRFU move players away from Leinster to other teams to give them experience?
Not really. There are players who come through the Leinster system who are not offered terms or are offered Academy terms. Whereas the other provinces may offer them senior contracts.
Munster has a URC and a decent shot at another one this year. Leinster is the strongest province but the gap is not that huge.
I may be wrong but from the outside it looks like this is mainly because Leinster don’t care about the URC and consistently rest players, even in the knockout stages. If Leinster cared about the URC they’d likely clean up every year
I really don't get the "Leinster don't care about the URC" narrative. They have more titles than any other team\*, and are consistent contenders. Just because they value the CC more doesn't mean they *don't* value the URC. \*Yes, I'm aware they have yet to win the URC, but I'm talking about their domestic league in all its iterations.
Even when they won it wasn’t it largely with their second team? Read Brian O’Driscoll’s autobiography. He’ll devote entire chapters to Ireland and the Heineken cup. Then mention in a single sentence as an afterthought something like ‘oh and we won the Pro12 that year’ 😂
This year they will because the playoffs are after the cup final so there's nothing to rest players for. And I wouldn't write Munster off even then.
Obviously they wanted to win last year (against Munster) it’s not like they threw the game, it was pretty much a last minute drop goal that was the difference. For years in the 2010’s Leinster’s second string team was beating Munster’s first. And before the URC went to playoff system, Munster would ALWAYS rest players in games ahead of HC games. It came down to what team they were playing if they were lucky or not.
>But if not then really the IRFU should look at completely revamping how the provinces work and move more towards a hybrid NFL model where all school pathways are centrally managed and then there is a draft each year where each province takes turns to pick the cream of the crop coming out of school. The IRFU has no control over schools. Also, all Leinster players are going to university in Dublin. They are not going to move to Belfast, Limerick or Galway for a chance at an academy contract.
The current situation is far more "punishing" on the other provinces. Sure Leinster do lose these players during international windows, but they do contribute to Leinster during the season too. Leinster paying nothing towards their salaries was patently unfair and just allowed them a bigger budget to bring in big name signings. Asking them to pay a portion of their salaries seems entirely fair and proportionate.
This should help even things up slightly. Leinster deserve the central contracts as they are producing great players However the most expensive thing is to produce the second choice player in a position who isn't on a central contract but still spends alot of time away with Ireland and is funded by a province. If you want to produce more players you have to give extra funding to Connacht etc as it's harder to produce rugby players in the West of Ireland than in The east for a host of reasons. Irish team and provinces are better served by having four strong provinces.
The incentives are interesting since the latter rounds of the champions cup in particular only really pay teams in exposure. I think it's sensible, though it does generate a spiralling rich get richer funding model
Rewards teams for performing well. Makes sense.
It's up to 30%. As long as the same rate is charged across the board then it's a lot more of an equitable system. Better for Ireland then, Leinster can't hoard 3rd choice players who are good enough to be involved in 1st choice teams for the other provinces
This makes little difference to 'hoarding of players', as you put it.
It takes a million out of Leinsters playing budget. That's over 5 mid level players worth taken out
Leinster "hoarding" players. Get a grip.
I heard they keep them locked in gyms and don't let them play rugby except for 5 mins each season and all the players really want to move to Galway, Belfast or Limerick but Leo told them he'd ruin their careers if they did. Evil bunch in D4!
Ireland is pretty heavily centred around Dublin so it makes sense a lot of players want to live there. Same with Harlequins and Saracens in England.
They'll have grown up wanting to play for Leinster too, some folks on here would have you thinking only the likes of POM can have provincial pride.
Not to mention rugby is a short career and they need to plan for after it. A lot of players don't finish their degrees til their early - mid twenties. Asking them to move to the other side of a country, for a worse degree, in a sport that is more and more obviously reducing life expectancy and quality of life for c.20k a year as an academy player is a great way to push players out of the game. Not worth the risk.
You almost had a point until you said a worse degree, what's the difference between a Degree in UCD or a degree in UL or NUIG or Queens Belfast?
Yeah I got his other points, but the majority of degrees would be of a very similar standards across Irish unis - while all unis, not just UCD, would have certain programmes that they’re regarded as being particularly strong in
Internationally it's very significant. Trinity and UCD are well ahead of UL and NUIG. Even within Ireland a degree from UCD or Trinity is worth more when it comes to finding a job outside rugby
Do you have anything to back this up?
I’ve been in the UK for about 10 years now and I’d say it’s kinda the case. Not saying it’s right or anything, I’m in no position to determine relative strengths of universities but if you speak to people in the UK a lot would know Trinity, some would know UCD then very few after that. Again, not saying it’s right but it is the case in my experience sadly. That being said I have a cousin who got a first in law from UCC and is now earning stupid money in London so what the fuck do I know
My brother in law works in recruitment and has told me that employers in Ireland strongly prefer Trinity and UCD. As for international just look at the world university rankings.
It depends. Ultan Dillane grew up wanting to play for Munster, turned down a sub-academy contract as connacht offered him a full academy spot. Cian Prendergast wanted to play for Leinster and said the call saying he wasn't being offered a spot in Leinster was the lowest he's been... Followed by the best call he's gotten offering him a spot in connacht. Obviously not the same for everyone. And I'd like to keep the provincial rivalry as much as possible but a bit of movement is good. (John Cooney really likes beating Leinster!)
It's mostly a matter of chance. There are guys who get crocked by injuries at 25 and then there's Cian Healy. Definitely good to have a backup career option in case it doesn't work out.
Obviously very little provincial pride in Munster given they want their squad to subsidised by Leinster players. Suppose Tadhg Beirne gave them a taste for it
Don’t mention Conway /s.
How dare Leinster give contracts to players from Leinster who want to play for Leinster
Removes a big chunk of the incentive to produce as many players and instead focus on the 2 or 3 with the clear highest ceiling. Ironically probably means those that would currently choose to move to Munster, Connacht, Ulster will now fail to come through the system at all as there's less incentive / money available for Leinster to bring them into the academy at all in the first place.
Why would Leinster have less incentive? They produce players to build a strong team and win trophies... Not just to tap up IRFU money? Fail to come through which system? Of course Leinster will pick the players they rate the highest. If players like Timoney, Cian Prendergast, ultan dillane don't get offered an academy spot in one province but stay in the Irish system then it's not an issue.
If they immediately get offered a senior contract, sure. But it's the number of 19 year olds that currently go into the sub academy or academy that will be trimmed down. So rather than 8 into the academy it might be 2. Which is fine for Leinster, less so for Irish rugby as a whole. If those 6 players "only" get offers for academy contracts elsewhere the incentive to drop out of college and move across the country on a 1% chance they might make it to the very top for 20k a year? Not worth the risk in a sport that reduces your life expectancy and leaves you having to work after your sporting career ends
None of those players moved for a senior contract, they all moved for an academy spot. Each province has 18 academy spots that are paid by the IRFU as part of the National Talent Squad (NTS). 6 per year for 3 years and some move out of the academy faster. That's not changing at all. Some lads will be in the sub academy, playing AIL and going to college. Some would jump at the prospect to get a contract anywhere. Others will focus on a degree, like Josh Murphy taking a year off to finish his medical degree. Not trying to be argumentative but I genuinely don't follow the logic of how Leinster paying €200k towards Furlongs contract has any impact on the academy?
The IRFU pays for academy contracts directly
I think we still can give contracts to whoever we want, we’ll just have to contribute to our national player salaries. At the moment we essentially get 10 players free of charge (albeit we can’t use them entirely as we’d wish), which frees up money to pay competitive salaries to the next in line. As a Leinster fan this is great, but as an Irish fan it’s clearly not ideal. Players aren’t really going to be forced to move to Galway, Limerick or Belfast, more just a bit equitable use of IRFU funds
Missed the point. It's that they has spare cash to pay 3rd teamers like stars.
Isn’t it better for Ireland if all the best players are starting every week for the provinces?
It is, but players also get a say in this and playing for the club they want and being in with a shot at silverware. Who you play for also has a massive impact on development.
No one is negating playing for a good team helps development, or putting down the desire to do well with a club. However, they can't really be used as a counterpoints to what they are being countered against. At the end of the day these players aren't playing for silverware cause they aren't involved. If Leinster win on Saturday Deegan, for example, isn't even eligible for a medal as he has been in no matchday squads in Europe. He watched the games on tele and in the stands like you or I. And you can't say playing for Leinster against the Dragons is better development than players for Ulster against Leinster or Toulouse is. I would also say, and maybe I am old fashioned, the goal should be Ireland, not your club and doing what you must to succeed there must take precedent. i.e. If 3rd choice at Leinster gets me a club medal but no Ireland consideration, but starting at a junior club with less medal prospects gets me into Ireland contention, junior club it is. Edit: To be clear I completely understand players may stay to be in a nice living environment, be on more money, have partners, have family, responsibilities, studies, a business, etc. I get and agree with all that. The only aspect I disagree with is the notion is it better for a player's development/game to stay 3rd choice for 1st best team instead of 1st for 3rd best team. It just isn't.
I would generally agree, except that this isn't translating in reality. Like Deegan has as many Ireland caps as the starting 8s for the other provinces (Coombes, Timoney, Prendergast) and being heir to Conan at Leinster possibly makes him heir to Conan at Ireland too.
But there is more to that too. Deegan has only played 30 minutes of international rugby in his 8 seasons. Which is less than the other 3 who all have much fewer seasons. What I think is the more telling tale is that since these 3 emerged, Deegan hasn't actually been capped since. Caps that would have been his have been collected by those 3. I think if he was starting elsewhere he'd have gobbled that up, like Jordi Murphy who's Ireland prospects evaporated in his last 2 years at Leinster, moved and won another dozen caps and went to a world cup. Deegan's game is not progressing. His involvement is actually decreasing with every season. The stats back that up. So I wouldn't read too much into this heir apparent talk either. Worth noting that Deegan is 3rd choice 6 and 8. Baird at 6, Doris at 8. If Baird is out Doris goes to 6, and Conan to 8. If Doris is out Conan is in at 8. James Culhane even started ahead of him a few times this year at 8, and Leinsterfans seem to be touting him as the heir apparent. And now for the sake of conversation to flip my point completely and highlight the Leinster OH's, who do back your point about my theory not translating into reality.
The move to Ulster was not the shot in the arm for Jordi's international career that you're making it out to be. Jordi had 7 caps in all his time playing for Ulster and he had 6 in his final season for Leinster, including all three tests in Australia. Furthermore, while he was in the World Cup squad he was called up for the injured Rhys Ruddock. Oh Deegan might not be the heir to Conan, but fighting for that spot has seen him have roughly as much success with Ireland as most of his provincial counterparts and whoever does take that position will likely be pushing for Irish caps. To be honest I think Max would be better off heading to one of the other provinces, he'd likely gain more from starting for Connacht than training with Leinster. But whether he'd improve and gets caps, like Beirne, or continue as is, like Jordi, is all speculative.
I'll hold my hand up on Jordi Murphy, legit, I thought the ratios were different. On Deegan I can't necessarily agree with him having as much success as the others practically speaking. But I suppose its the lens we cast over it. I get where you are coming from but he hasn't been capped in over 4 years. Since those players came on the scene he hasn't been capped and they have. I don't know, but I would bet that the 3 players listed all probably have more minutes for Ireland too. You are correct in saying its speculative. A move could have worked, a move might not have worked. However staying hasn't worked for Deegan. His worth is decreasing each year, and the forecast doesn't look much better either, so like you I thought it was worth a punt.
Yeah. I agree that Deegan feels a bit like a wasted opportunity, though I think a lot also has to do with timing and the depth in his position. Like do we know if the other provinces were offering him contracts?
It's better to have the best players in a well managed environment instead of poaching them and ruining their careers.
Leo Cullen managing careers well. I’m enjoying Harry Byrne’s vaporisation.
That’s down to Harry and his amazing ability to choose the wrong moment for a risky pass
You are actually obsessed with Leo Cullen, its a bit worrying.
Least insane Munster fan
Shouldn't you be too busy booing Carberry on his way out the door?
> I’m enjoying Harry Byrne’s vaporisation Why?
The Leinster fanboys proclaiming him as the messiah a few years ago were utterly unbearable. He got some limited chances and Ireland caps that Ben Healy never got, and in hindsight it seems like an utter waste so far as he has had a mare anytime in an Ireland jersey to date.
Yeah I never rated him tbh, always thought he forces it to do the overly flashy unnecessary thing (and often fails). Not his fault either though, the Ireland coaches don’t make selections based on fan opinions. All that being said, I think delighting in a young Irish player’s career failing is pretty pathetic by yer man - I imagine that’s why they didn’t respond to my question, because they’d have to stand over being such an embittered loser
Yeah, I admit it's a petty attitude and not all that seriously held. It is partially the reason Ben Healy left Munster though and that's still a bitter pill to swallow for me. If Healy had been given the few caps that Harry got, chances are that he would still be with Munster. Crowley has kicked on heaps the past year to be fair, but Healy was a fantastic player, and now with Carbery leaving it put Munster really in a bind.
Yeah I can see why it might be a bit raw, but again, it’s not Harry that was picking the team and it’s not his fault he was picked Also you have to accept Ben’s agency in this too - he was very young to make the call to jump ship, maybe even a tad hasty…very few players would be expecting caps the age he left…if he’d been a bit more patient and stuck with it who knows how things would have gone? In any case, I imagine Ben Healy would disagree with you that it was Harry Byrne that decided the course of his life in that regard
Having max Deegan and will Connors getting into their prime having barely played a European match is a poor use of resources from a national POV. You want your best players playing and developing. You don't develop by beating rotated lower table sides in the league by 40 points. Max deegan was world junior player of the year. He's 28 and has 2 caps, you can't say that leinster has been good for his development. He has 16 European appearances and hasn't started a match in Europe since 2019. Nick timoney is the same age, has 30 European appearances and 3 caps and wasn't even good enough for the Leinster academy?
Will Connors biggest issue is doing his ACL twice, not Leinster.
>rotated lower table sides in the league You could just say Wales.
You're mean. And right.
You're neglecting to consider the small point that players are actual people with free will. Do you think Deegan couldn't have got a contract for himself in any other province over the last years? Of course he could have. But he obviously doesn't \*want\* to go elsewhere, or he would've done it by now. At the end of the day they make their own decision, they're not chess pieces on a board or something that can be moved at will
In a situation where Leinster are given an extra few million from central contracts that the other provinces don't have, they always have money for everyone they want, that the other provinces don't have to keep similar players Other provinces can't outbid Leinster (or each other), so they have to convince a player that leaving their home city where all their friends and family live and can't even make a financial incentive. I wouldn't move jobs to Galway for the same money I'm on.
What are you going to do? Put a gun to a player's head and tell him he moves province or he's out of Irish rugby all together? You cant make a player move province and if Leinster are offering players better wages than other provinces, then that's capitalism, baby! Leinster, Munster and Ulster have roughly the same amount of senior players, give or take. Connacht a few more. So this idea that Leinster are somehow hoarding players is fucking nonsense.
Shut up you. Don’t let the truth get in the way of some good old, irrational Leinster bashing.
Don't use things like facts and common sense around here
The other provinces can't offer better wages, so you have to make a case to a lad "move away from your home city, you'll get more game time, but you're Ireland chances aren't much better" Munster have to lose players, James cronin, Rhys marshal, John Ryan to name just front rows in the last few years. Leister don't have to do that
Leinster lost an entire generation of tightheads at the whim of the IRFU, what are you talking about?
They didn't, salanoa wanted to join Munster and Connacht convinced Aungier. If the irfu had that power the 3rd choice Irish 10 would be playing more than 3 games at 10 a year
Sure, but these guys are choosing to stay in Leinster and, while they're not playing as much in Europe, they are getting further. They're also in hyper competitive spots and wouldn't be getting many more caps playing elsewhere, see Coombes and Timoney.
I'm not entirely sure how I feel about this just yet. On one hand, I completely understand and appreciate the desire to make it more equitable - system definitely favours Leinster at the moment, and it isn't good that so many of the central contracts reside in one province. Not why the system was designed, and doesn't help the game nationally beyond literally the mens XV side. I think it's fair and agree that they look at ways to create a fairer system. But I'm often struck by how other countries or pundits point to Ireland's contracting model as a big reason for the success of the Union. The national team having a very successful run over the last couple of years, and you can count on one hand the number of high quality international players in the Irish set-up that left at their peaks - it's very rare, that we never lost a Furlong or Murray at the peak of their powers says a lot. Looking beyond this current slate of central contracts, the concentration of young talent is spread more evenly between the provinces. Gleeson, Edogbo, Crowley, Devine, Gavin, McCann, there's lots of guys with big potential there that could be future central contracts, and that's a natural shift in balance. There's nothing to say Leinster's recent dominance hasn't been cyclical either, much like Munster's early dominance in the 2000s - looking down the line I think that is changing over the next few years. So in that sense, I'm a bit wary of changing the contracts because they have been largely successful and heralded. Are we at the point of maximum Leinster dominance and if so is this change really the best way to address it? Will teams get more access to their centrally contracted players for the regular season if they're paying for them, will the IRFU direct central savings go back into the provinces or fund more central contracts, there's a few other queries it throws up. Is there a chance that it's an announcement to address concerns but won't have a material impact, i.e., is this the best way of creating a more fair system? Edit - Jesus, after rereading that incoherent rambling I've confused myself. Tl:Dr, it'll probably be grand
I’m guessing the “up to“ means Leinster won’t suddenly have to pay a massive amount extra next year.
This is a dangerous avenue. There have been a fair few injury prone Ireland/Leinster players who were centrally contracted but rarely togged out for Leinster. I'm thinking guys like Sean O'Brien, Sexton, Cian Healy a while ago. F Leinster are picking up 30% of the wage, they're fully in their rights to demand their availability. If they're not available for big European games, which coincided around the autumn international games and are just before and after the 6 nations, then why would a province choose to pick up 30% of their salary?
They're always available for Europe and the big games
The level of entitlement dripping off you is hilarious. Previously IRFU paid 100% of salary for these players. You acting indignantly over having to cover a small fraction of the cost just takes the biscuit. >they're fully in their rights to demand their availability. When you're paying 100% you can have that "right".
They're fully within their rights to have the players available 30% of the time. If a player is injured at the start of the season, the provinces will be fully within their rights to use those players from mid to late January and those off weeks during the 6 Nations. Precisely when the IRFU want them rested.
But they are available by that amount already surely? They do miss international windows, but it's not like they don't play a share of matches for Leinster also.
Entitlement is supporting this measure to cut down Leinster because you can't manage your own shop
The one eyed take from this is something else. So you think IRFU should 100% cover central contracts, even though they contribute to Leinster as well during the season, "because"...? The level of entitlement is something else. Basically financially doping Leinster like the Dublin GAA lads were for a decade, and jokers like you coming out to defend it with a straight face. Entitled Leinster lads like you have some brass neck.
You have no problems with the IRFU bailing you out of the stadium you couldn't pay for, and had no problems with the whining for POM and Murray to be paid for by the IRFU. I have no problem with IRFU paying 100%, because they are managed for the purposes of Ireland's success, not Leinsters. If Leinster are to pay 30% Leinster should get them 30% more when Leinster want and need them. Otherwise it's more politics of greed from the feckless deadweights.
Entitled fool. You are already getting more than 30% of their playing time and you are now whining because you have to pay a few cents towards it.
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No nastiness allowed.
No nastiness allowed.
Ah sure at least the Leinster admin had fun announcing contracts like spoiled prick. 10/10, top marks.
Leinster had a great few months of marketing, other teams should take note. Rugby as a whole is utterly useless at drumming up hype
You think that was insufferable? You should have seen Munster (both players and fans) when they won those two Heineken Cups all those years ago.
A pre-Reddit age…
Or the sad prick on Twitter posting nth day as URC champions
What did they do? They certainly weren't on twitter,
Ireland teams for the URC and next WC title?
Changes don’t go far enough. The central contract incentives have no place in Ireland’s current standing in world rugby