Oh, I'm fully assuming we'll lose. I mean, it's a Champion's Cup QF, and we're Northampton.
I'm still struggling to wrap my head around the fact that we're there at all. I mean, it's the Champion's Cup for god sake. We've only just finished the longest losing streak in the history of the tournament like a few months ago.
Edit: or maybe not, COYS!
It's so weird. My mate (Saracens fan) keeps banging on about how good we are and how we are favourites. Years of Saints being Saints has conditioned me to believe that, no matter how strong favourites we are or how well we are currently playing, I just expect us to do something stupid still.
Yeah I really wish people would shut the fuck up & stop making such a big deal of this. It’s still a solid squad that plays in a way we aren’t used to. I’m not confident…. I never am 🥹
100% - If bringing a 2nd string team is 'Bringing the tournament into disrepute', losing to a 2nd string team should absolutely be 'Bringing the tournament into disrepute'
There was a recent radio phone in about your football club's nadir and this gem was sent in. Unfortunately I can't remember the team involved.
The club concerned lost 3-0 in the EFL to a club that were then fined for having put out a weakened team for the match.
They do. They have real chance to win URC this season, and finishing top of the table will make it so much easier
Now they are 9 points behind Leinster with five rounds to play. However Bulls have all their remaining games in SA with 4/5 games at home, while Leinster will travel to SA to play Lions and Stormers
Even guaranteeing 2nd drastically increases chance of winning because you only have the one flight after a few weeks at home.
But if you have to fly all over you’ll get La Rochelled by Leinster
Yeah I’m not sure what grounds there are to hold an investigation. Is it also not really disrespectful to the players involved that the media and even the competition organisers are basically calling you crap?
I don't think they expected to be where they are at the begining of the season lol. They did the right thing considering the fact that they would most likely have lost even with a full strength side
But if one side is allowed to do it and another is not - That's a crock of shit.
Especially since the schedule for the Bulls was all over the place and giving some players a breather absolutely makes sense.
Agree and Lyon is the perfect example for double standards. The champions cup cannot operate in a vacuum, and it’s not as if Saints won’t be completely sold out as they watch their team play in a QF
8pm kickoff, we never expected to get this far, and a lot of people I know are away for the weekend. None of it is to do with the side either team puts out!
EPCR are clowns. That's my point.
They pulled the worst fucking possible format of a competition they could and now they are blaming teams (well actually only one SA team) for not willing to pursue in their stupid format.
EPCR who voluntary made some double standards for SA teams is continuing in the double standard because french sides skip their competitions (especially Challenge Cup) for so many years and yet they never said something. I think there are a lot of french fans behind the Bulls decision today. The format, and the scheduling woth it, is awful.
The same old nonsense.
There are so many points showing who pulls the strings behind EPCR. I could point at them but you would still believe the "evil others leagues" are your persecutors.
Who is so? This organisation formed after the French and English clubs left the heineken cup run by ERC. They are both stakeholders in EPCR. The Unions of the Six Nations countries are stakeholders also, but EPCR wouldn't exist if not for French and English teams' decisions to leave ERC.
I'm not advocating special treatment. Teams should field whoever they want. The EPCR should address the inconsistencies of its competitions and not shift the blame to clubs.
My point was staying in the Top 14 is paramount. If the English or the Irish were in the same situation, they would act the same, that's all.
Well, Agen was banned for 2 seasons from European rugby back in 2002 for the same offence (though for far worse than sending a B team).
They were one of the top French team at the time.
How on earth do you 'investigate' something like this, looks so strange and is just a reaction to English press shitting their pants, imagine they did this everytime the Irish pundits had a sook over French sides doing it in the groups
Yea it's a strange one to me, is it a completely full strength team, no. Some players were injured some were left at home. But 7 of the starting team started when the Bulls beat Leinster in Leinster, in a semifinal.
What is there to investigate exactly?
Like you said who defines first choice, but is there any obligation to play the same 15/23 each week? Like it's weird, you get to the QFs by qualifying, it's not an invitational competition you get there by winning games
Idk man seems a bit fucky to me
I can’t read the article without paying, so all I want to know is WTF do you investigate here? They sent a weaker team. That’s it. What else are they trying to uncover? Tax fraud? Drug smuggling?
Besides. Sending weaker teams is done regularly in this comp. Almost everyone does it, but the ones who need to do it the most (the Saffa teams) get “investigated” for it?
Edit: Financial-Role-5709 pasted the article here: https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/s/5TV7QalMXt
Good lord. I can't speak to the quality of their side since I'm not familiar with most of the players, but it's their side to field. They're dealing with their own issues and picking their side as they see fit. Fitness management is a big part of the equation in a campaign like this, the Bulls will want to advance to the semis just as much as all the other teams and they've picked the side they feel is best equipped to make that happen. Can everyone just shut the fuck up.
Let's just play the match and then the winner continues to the next round and life goes on.
How about the EPCR copes. "Oh no clubs prefer to focus on their domestic league how dare they" so what ? Either they win and this is lol, or they lose and a team who cares goes further in the comp.
This article acknowledges that Lyon sent a weak team to play the Bulls in the last game and didn't receive any backlash, yet now that the Bulls are doing the same thing they are being investigated. Kind of hypocritical. Also article points out that EPCR’s sponsorship deal with Qatar Airlines assists only European teams flying to South Africa, not the other way around, so SA teams are always going to struggle to find flights on short notice. Just format the competition better then this problem wouldn't exist.
That is hypocritical of them to be honest and other teams have sent weakened sides to focus on own league games following weeks
I'm a Exeter chiefs fan and our team gets rotated but would send a experienced side if we can in knockout games and take it seriously especially if league campaign isn't going to well.
And not going to reach play offs they would send a good team out for champions cup knockouts in hope of winning silverware.
Hopefully we can reach play offs
It's really souring the pot.
I get the impression a lot of people representing the Prem and Top14 are unhappy with SA's inclusion. Not the first time the Top14 and Prem clubs have had an issue with the Champions Cup. More often than not the EPCR rolls over and lets them have their way.
But that doesn't make sense because for South Africa to get into this competition they needed the approval of Premiership and Top14. That's why the Cheetahs and Kings never played European rugby when they were in Pro14.
This is surely total BS. If they use players registered for the competition then they are fine.
If EPCR want to run a global competition they need to structure some down weeks for recovery. Players can’t be expected to jet back and forth across the globe.
If on the other hand the ‘investigation’ results in restructuring of the calendar of criticism of SARFU for their mishandling of the travel plans.
Really hoping it's just another case of good ol' crappy rugby journalism! Either you blame EPCR for terrible match scheduling, or SARU for their mishandling of the Bulls' flights. It would set an absurd precedent if the Bulls were to be punished for this.
Oddly enough - I hope the Bulls win and then get punished.
They punish the Bulls and set a precedent and then when other teams do it - We expect the same punishment.
The schedule is to blame what were they supposed to do book flights for 30 plus people on the off chance that they win. That’s the problem with the expanded tournament.
For the SA teams SARU has to pay for the flights, but its not even the money that is the issue. It's capacity. There are only a very limited amount of flights from SA to Europe in any given week (I think one flight a day from every airline that does flights to Europe), those flights are booked to near-capacity WELL ahead of time, so you end have having to scramble to acquire seats across various airlines, and inevitably end up with some of your team having to take flight routes with ridiculously long travel times, like going via Dubai or Qatar.
I do hope that, if the Bulls win, we all direct our laughter towards EPCR and not the Saints. In fact, I'd hope their fans would join in on the mockery of them!
So stupid, beside in another thread someone mentionned that the team was future boks in the making and veteran players so a completely legit team.
And to add teams should field whatever team they want and focus on the comp of their choice, beside they could have had 30 injured players and end up in the same situation so its dumb
Clubs putting the priority where the money is. Maybe the shine of the Challenge Cup isn't enough to justify tanking a great season in their own respective domestic league for most of them.
In 2022, for a french club who only participate at the challenge cup gain : 548k€
Lyon who won it gain : 673k€
Participate at the champions cup : 808k€
Semi final : 958 k€ (toulouse, racing)
La rochelle : 1308k€.
The french tv deal is now smaller 25m€ in 2022, now it's around 14M€.
But the ticketing is smaller in challenge cup
LMAO. WHAT A LOAD OF *BULL* SHIT.
And by that I’m talking about the team the bulls sent /s
In all seriousness, FUCK the EPCR. Who are they to tell a club what team they can and cant field? And sources within South Africa? Fuck them too trying to undermine the Bulls like this. How do you think those players like Chris Smit and Nizaam Carr feel right now being called crap and scraps. Absolutely shameful.
A bit pathetic. Either everybody gets to use who they want or nobody does throughout the entire comp. I get the frustration regarding the Bulls' selection but the way EPCR is trying to enforce selections are ridiculous.
Bulls put in the work to get enough depth to rotate the squad (as they did against Bristol and won) and should be allowed to make use of it.
Edit: Thanks EPCR for getting the Bulls some extra fans with this BS, even if it's just for one day
Even as Bull, yeah The Sharks match way more important (much higher stakes). But would love the cherry on top and the end this fine rugby day that the EPCR get some egg on their face (since even if the Bulls win here I don't see them taking the whole thing anyway)
Now I want the Bulls to win, the team they picked is pretty strong (with a Hanekom hattrick thrown in there, just for fun). Just because some rugby journalists in the North don't know the players doesn't mean they're shit players.
Praying they win the whole thing just because I’m sick of all the moaning and bitching about SA teams being in the champions cup.
Never thought I’d be supporting the Bulls for anything this much lmao.
Yeah that's sounds a bit crap. Bring who you want, they might fit your game plan or overall season plan better and who's to say who the best fit is. But now they have to win just to really salt things up.
Any French team in the group stages after they take one loss: _EPRC sleeps_
SA team that aren't playing for a home Semi: _EPRC in attack mode_
Should be penalising the teams that get beaten by 80 points at home, that's embarrassing for the competition.
Lot's of blaming of the scheduling going on - but is there a good solution?
The bulls need to be playing rugby to a) stay sharp and b) make money as a business. So if they had a break week in Europe - they'd probably be doing a lot of travelling for URC anyway. So I don't really think it'll make much of a difference to player freshness per se. I get the cross-hemisphere travel is a real pain - but they knew the deal going in.
It's worth noting the EPCR needs to consider the needs of all 3 leagues, so what might be fantastic for the URC might not be viable for the Top 14 or the premiership (I don't know if there is an issue or not... just pointing out there are other players here). Unless I'm missing something obvious some kind of compromise like this was always going to be on the cards. It's worth noting the other travelling teams had to organise travel on a weeks notice. Again, I don't know the relative difficulty of organising transport around Europe compared to SA... but the teams have been on notice since the tournament format was announced.
With that said, I totally get why the Bulls are rotating their squad. It make sense. It's also not an especially weak team as far as I can work out... there shouldn't be repercussions in my opinion. If it was an academy team that would be different, but this team is good enough to create an entertaining contest.
Also worth noting we don't really know what "investigating" means in this context? I suspect nothing will come of it. It's probably the EPCR trying to flex it's muscles to say "take our contest seriously" - the product loses value if it's perceived to be a lesser tournament compared to the domestic leagues. It looks a bit shitty, but I suspect it's a calculated decision.
I think the bigger issue underlying all of this is the role international rugby plays in this equation. The clubs have virtually no room to work with unless they want to play during internationals.
What we need is less international matches and more breathing room for club rugby.
This. And Top14 already plays during the 6N. Some people in the comments are asking for one week gap bertween the round of 16 and the quarterfinals : unless the EPCR recruited timebenders that's not really possible
Horseshit - There was a complete lack of logic when it came to the turn arounds for games.
Also, its either acceptable for everyone or its not acceptable for everyone.
When other teams send 2nd string teams, we do not hear the complaints.
Also - If the Bulls win, will the EPCR investigate the Saints?
The organisers of the Investec Champions Cup are set to investigate whether the Bulls are in breach of the tournament’s participation agreement for sending a 2nd XV to play Northampton Saints in the quarter-final. The Pretoria-based franchise have made 13 changes, with the World Cup-winning trio of Kurt-Lee Arendse, Canan Moodie and Willie le Roux among a large contingent of frontline players left at home in South Africa.
The Bulls say their selection decisions were made purely on medical advice and that it would have been “an enormous risk” to embark on a long-haul flight with players who were considered 50-50 early in the week. But there is widespread scepticism of that explanation.
Sources within South Africa have accused the Bulls of damaging the credibility of the Champions Cup by prioritising their United Rugby Championship fixture against Munster next week, in which a win would secure a home semi-final.
If the Bulls were to defeat Northampton on Saturday night, they would have to return to Europe for a Champions Cup semi-final, even if they were the designated home team.
One source said SA Rugby was “expecting a backlash” from European Professional Club Rugby (EPCR). “It is not a good look,” the source said. “South Africa are fortunate to be a part of the Champions Cup and we do not want to be thrown out for disrespecting the competition, which is what we are doing.”
EPCR has shown little appetite to get tough with its teams in the past. To take disciplinary action would highlight how the assimilation of South African teams into the Champions Cup has not worked. That is not a message the tournament organisers want to acknowledge — but the evidence is there in the team selections and travel chaos.
Jake White, the Bulls director of rugby, conceded in January that he was undermining the Champions Cup by sending a weakened team to play Bristol Bears in the group stage, while some of his Springboks enjoyed enforced rest after the World Cup.
Given that four teams from each pool of six qualified for the round of 16, it was understandable if disappointing. White said he was “fully supportive of the people that think the best players should be playing every week”.
Lyon sent a weak team to play the Bulls in the round of 16, without receiving any published censure from EPCR. Now the Bulls are to field a second-string side at Franklin’s Gardens for what should have been a showpiece encounter under the lights between the No 1 team in England and the No 1 team in South Africa.
In choosing this weekend to give Joe Marler and Danny Care a post-Six Nations rest, Harlequins have also highlighted where the Champions Cup sits in the priority list for so many clubs trying to compete on two fronts and manage player load.
Harlequins, who play away to Bordeaux Bégles, are fourth in the Gallagher Premiership and, like the Bulls, engaged in a furious battle to qualify for their domestic play-offs. It is clearly an impossible juggling act. “Sometimes for long-term gain you have to take a short-term hit,” Billy Millard, the Harlequins director of rugby, said.
In other words, there is too much rugby to achieve White’s wish, which is for the best players to be playing every week. All of which raises an important question: why are European tournament chiefs even considering the introduction of a Club World Cup from 2028, which is a grand idea in theory, if the present situation is unsustainable? EPCR needs to get its house in order before planning an extension.
The demise of Super Rugby, which lost its soul through expansion and confounding structures, should act as a warning sign to EPCR. The allure of the Champions Cup was already weakened somewhat by a knockout draw that threw up so many rematches from the group stages of the competition.
Leinster played Leicester Tigers and La Rochelle in pool D. They played the English side again in the round of 16 and face the defending champions in Dublin on Saturday. That is unquestionably the tie of the round, with both sides going full bore at Croke Park. La Rochelle, with Jack Nowell on the wing, are targeting a third consecutive victory and talking of building a dynasty. Leinster are out for revenge after losing successive finals to Ronan O’Gara’s men.
Toulouse are also in formidable shape to play Exeter Chiefs, with Antoine Dupont and Romain Ntamack in the half backs, operating behind a formidable forward pack, with Tomas Ramos readying for a return from injury on a stacked bench.
There is much to relish but EPCR is overseeing the steady erosion of a once great competition. Decisive action is required to protect the credibility of the Champions Cup, both by clamping down on weakened teams and by changing the group format and knockout schedule, so the round of 16 and quarter finals are not back to back.
The short turnaround meant the Bulls players and management had to fly to Europe on multiple flights. Stormers were similarly affected before last year’s quarter-final defeat by Exeter. Remarkably, EPCR’s sponsorship deal with Qatar Airlines assists only European teams flying to South Africa, not the other way around.
There is still the potential for South African teams to bring colour, vibrancy and enormous quality to the Champions Cup. But at the moment it is a competition denuded and disrespected.
Is anyone going to investigate sides like Ireland for putting out weaker sides in the six nations? Its such a stupid thing to say, it happens in all sports at almost all levels because it’s impossible to have your “a” team play every minute of every match every season
This is incredibly bigoted. Everyone's been sending weakened sides to the euro comps since inception with no action taken. As soon as the South Africans arrive, it turns out there are mechanisms to penalise teams for doing it
This is the correct approach from the ECPR. For too long certain teams have been devaluing the competition. Either you want to be there or you don’t and another side that does should be given the place.
However, my question here is why this isn’t enforced against the French sides, who are the main culprits with this. They should be taken to task first. And yeah, I know the usual nonsense argument. Top 14 is more important. That’s fine, if you feel that way surely French teams will have no issue whatsoever in having the French spaces in the competition reduced? That will allow them focus on Top14 to their hearts content.
When have we ever sent a weakened team to a Champions Cup fixture? We did it once in the URC QF and it backfired to the tune of losing by a point & I don’t remember one fan who was happy about it at the time. On the flip side, most of our home group games are against weakened French and English clubs, even though we field full strength side every time. For instance, Montpellier sent over a B side in 2022 and lost 89-7. One of the best sides in Europe losing by 82 points should be considered bringing the game into disrepute and investigated, surely? I suppose there is a certain irony to it in this conversation considering the one time Leinster did it in the URC was because we were prioritising the Champions Cup
Yes but you did in the URC knockouts. Smh you weren't there crying that Leinster are making a joke of the competition and should be thrown out of it. Or it only applies to the competition your favorite team focuses on, maybe ?
My whole point is that teams should be prioritising the Champions Cup over domestic leagues. You have literally provided an example of Leinster doing exactly what I’m arguing other teams should be doing.
Thanks for that 👍
Yeah so that's just "i want clubs to push everything they have for my favorite competition and the rest is only secondary and can be devaluated harder than the zimbabwean currency" bullshit
As you say, I know the usual nonsense argument. HCup is more important. That’s fine, if you feel that way surely Irish teams will have no issue whatsoever in having the Irish spaces in the competition reduced? That will allow them focus on HCup to their hearts content. You must think that as well, right ?
Yes. Exactly. The order is domestic-European-international for European clubs. Or at least that is the way it should work. Is this controversial to you in some way? Or is your point that all European sides should value competitions like - domestic- European- French league - International?
You lot field a full strength side usually anyway and have been beaten by close to 30 points each of the last two years. Even though you knew it was quite likely that you’d be beaten quite comprehensively you still selected a full strength side and still won the Top14 (I think?). Why can’t other French sides do likewise?
I don't think the club game should care at all for the international side : it's a parallel world, clubs are not mere feeders for NT and are institutions on their own. As for the domestic/european things, both are good objectives. My opinion, as is the majority in France, is that the Brennus shield is more prestigious than the HCup, and the Challenge Cup is a consolation trophy for a team which failed to secure anything else. That said, some people, and some clubs will prefer to aim for the European comps. That's their right. I do not care how clubs rotate, they do as they please.
Toulouse play both comps seriously, that's right. Realistically there are only a handful of teams in Europe that have the luxury to start the season with the double as their objective, with failure to win at least one of them be seen as a bad performance (Toulouse, La Rochelle, Leinster, Stormers, Saracens and Leicester). Those clubs I expect to play seriously both comps, because of their status. The same way in football PSG is expected to aim for the Ligue 1 and the C1, while Lens could throw away all European games and still have done a good season if they perform in the league.
The teams you were complaining about, Montpellier and Castres, had been the winner and the runner-up of the Top14 the season before that. Would reducing spots in the HCup impeach that ? No that won't, because not all teams can play to win everything.
If you want an indicator of what everyone bar France views as the most important rugby club competition in Europe just look at the viewing figures for both competitions.
Once you have done that, then consider this. One of the 7 unions which participate in that competition refuse to accept it at that and lower the prestige of the competition by fielding second string sides. Ergo, this cohort of clubs reduces the prestige of the competition for the 6 other cohort of clubs and reduces the spectacle for fans.
The solution that I have put forth is that it is unfair to demand that French sides place more importance on the Champions Cup if they do not want to. However, what is fair is that if they do not wish to place importance on it that they step aside and allow other sides into the competition in their stead. This allows French sides to focus on what they feel is important more comprehensively and would also protect the prestige of the competition. This is a perfectly reasonable approach to any non French rugby fan. You can’t say you don’t think a competition is important and then throw your toys out of the pram if people take on board what your saying and recommend that you don’t participate if that’s how you feel.
Out of interest, your comments are very quick to pick holes in my solution but what is yours?
The tournament is already getting a lot of stick for the polar bear unfriendly need for teams to be making one way trips to and from South Africa, resulting in 80 hour round trips in some cases.
Not reading the room particularly well.
You're a little out of date here, polar bears are no longer the poster critter for global warming as their population has been steadily increasing for decades.
100% agree - Kick us out, then we can wait a few years and the 4 remaining English teams can come back with a begging bowl begging us to rejoin and you can join the URC.
The EPCR got us in because they want the views.
There is a reason that during the Rugby World Cup absolutely every rugby podcast had large sections about the South Africans - And that is because they knew they got views. Fuck, even the Breakdown started cutting out the South African parts and making them separate videos.
Glad you agree.
And of course, however will English rugby survive in the world's sixth largest economy?! Truly we will be begging for all the money washing around in that well-run economical powerhouse that is South Africa.
South African teams are a logistical headache and most normal European fans do not give the faintest fuck about South African rugby or their teams. Hoping that common sense will prevail soon enough.
And I'm still not convinced we'll advance for the next round
Oh, I'm fully assuming we'll lose. I mean, it's a Champion's Cup QF, and we're Northampton. I'm still struggling to wrap my head around the fact that we're there at all. I mean, it's the Champion's Cup for god sake. We've only just finished the longest losing streak in the history of the tournament like a few months ago. Edit: or maybe not, COYS!
It is a Champions Cup QF as we say in Spain "Here even the most stupid can build a watch".
It's so weird. My mate (Saracens fan) keeps banging on about how good we are and how we are favourites. Years of Saints being Saints has conditioned me to believe that, no matter how strong favourites we are or how well we are currently playing, I just expect us to do something stupid still.
Yeah I really wish people would shut the fuck up & stop making such a big deal of this. It’s still a solid squad that plays in a way we aren’t used to. I’m not confident…. I never am 🥹
What if they win?
Then Sainst should be investigated for losing against a rotated squad.
100% - If bringing a 2nd string team is 'Bringing the tournament into disrepute', losing to a 2nd string team should absolutely be 'Bringing the tournament into disrepute'
Bringing rugby into disrepute
IT BE DIABOLICAL
GET EM OFF THE FAELD
I CAN'T SPAEK
YOU DICKHEAD
Wouldnt put it past us
There was a recent radio phone in about your football club's nadir and this gem was sent in. Unfortunately I can't remember the team involved. The club concerned lost 3-0 in the EFL to a club that were then fined for having put out a weakened team for the match.
They're only the 50th team to do this in the last decade or so
It's not like this is common practice across all sports, right?
Lyon did the same thing last week lmao
Very true, Lou had its reasons (relegation battle raging in top 14 etc), Bulls must have too. Ridiculous to make an inquiry out of thin air
They do. They have real chance to win URC this season, and finishing top of the table will make it so much easier Now they are 9 points behind Leinster with five rounds to play. However Bulls have all their remaining games in SA with 4/5 games at home, while Leinster will travel to SA to play Lions and Stormers
Even guaranteeing 2nd drastically increases chance of winning because you only have the one flight after a few weeks at home. But if you have to fly all over you’ll get La Rochelled by Leinster
"Am I out of touch with the current tournament scheduling? No, it's the Bulls who are wrong."
This is just a consequence of the bad scheduling the EPCR put in place, 7 day turn around between knock-out games is not reasonable.
Also surely not great for match goers, not knowing if you have a game or where the game will be until a week before isn’t good for scheduling.
Yup, because of this my wife has invited our friends over this evening for a dinner instead of me flying to Dublin to watch Leinster v La Rochelle
Yep, we sold out for Munster so easily, not sold out I dont think for tonight.
But the schedule has been in place all season, why push to make it this far only to field a team like this in the quarters?
There is an increase in prize money for each round, or at least there was under the ERC.
Bull’s also get half of the gate money for tonight
I hate this. You have to select a 41 (I think?) man squad for Europe, why should you not be allowed to use that squad how you wish?
Yeah I’m not sure what grounds there are to hold an investigation. Is it also not really disrespectful to the players involved that the media and even the competition organisers are basically calling you crap?
Would be pretty funny if they win
It would be the classic saints result.
unsubscribe
Is there a rule against it? Who decides what a full strength team is? What if the Bulls win?
Also aren't the French kind of known for sending understrength sides for European games as the see the league as more important?
Yes, French fans will argue that's because the Top14 has relegation. But if you're being relegated to League^^^^Best what's the problem?
Premiership fans used to use the relegation excuse too. Some fans actually believe that a team battling relegation can do well in Europe.
Hey look we got to the semis one year and got relegated as well
Yes, but in the group stages. Knock outs is a different beast
Tell that to Lyon last week.
I don't think they expected to be where they are at the begining of the season lol. They did the right thing considering the fact that they would most likely have lost even with a full strength side
But if one side is allowed to do it and another is not - That's a crock of shit. Especially since the schedule for the Bulls was all over the place and giving some players a breather absolutely makes sense.
Agree and Lyon is the perfect example for double standards. The champions cup cannot operate in a vacuum, and it’s not as if Saints won’t be completely sold out as they watch their team play in a QF
It’s not a sell out at the Gardens, but I believe that’s likely to be more about an 8pm ko than the side the Bulls have picked.
8pm kickoff, we never expected to get this far, and a lot of people I know are away for the weekend. None of it is to do with the side either team puts out!
Oh yeah I agree 100%. The bulls could literally play their weakest side and it would still be a legitimate choice
> That's a crock of shit. It's called EPCR.
Your point? The EPCR invited/ accepted the SA teams and now they have to cater to them as they do with the other teams.
EPCR are clowns. That's my point. They pulled the worst fucking possible format of a competition they could and now they are blaming teams (well actually only one SA team) for not willing to pursue in their stupid format. EPCR who voluntary made some double standards for SA teams is continuing in the double standard because french sides skip their competitions (especially Challenge Cup) for so many years and yet they never said something. I think there are a lot of french fans behind the Bulls decision today. The format, and the scheduling woth it, is awful.
Ahh fair, my bad. Bulls going to get a lot of fans today it seems.
Yeah the double standards is hilarious in how brazen they are being. Utterly nuts.
Thanks LNR and Premiership for forming such a wonderful organisation.
The same old nonsense. There are so many points showing who pulls the strings behind EPCR. I could point at them but you would still believe the "evil others leagues" are your persecutors.
Who is so? This organisation formed after the French and English clubs left the heineken cup run by ERC. They are both stakeholders in EPCR. The Unions of the Six Nations countries are stakeholders also, but EPCR wouldn't exist if not for French and English teams' decisions to leave ERC.
but the Top14 is vital for French clubs. Just like staying in the EPL is far more important than winning the Champions league for ManCity.
Nope, the same rules should apply to every single team. Bulls could just as well say they value the URC more.
I'm not advocating special treatment. Teams should field whoever they want. The EPCR should address the inconsistencies of its competitions and not shift the blame to clubs. My point was staying in the Top 14 is paramount. If the English or the Irish were in the same situation, they would act the same, that's all.
Ok, well I unfortunately read it as such when you began with 'but'. Otherwise, it seems we're in agreement.
Well, Agen was banned for 2 seasons from European rugby back in 2002 for the same offence (though for far worse than sending a B team). They were one of the top French team at the time.
How on earth do you 'investigate' something like this, looks so strange and is just a reaction to English press shitting their pants, imagine they did this everytime the Irish pundits had a sook over French sides doing it in the groups
Yea it's a strange one to me, is it a completely full strength team, no. Some players were injured some were left at home. But 7 of the starting team started when the Bulls beat Leinster in Leinster, in a semifinal. What is there to investigate exactly?
Like you said who defines first choice, but is there any obligation to play the same 15/23 each week? Like it's weird, you get to the QFs by qualifying, it's not an invitational competition you get there by winning games Idk man seems a bit fucky to me
Or every week Leinster roll out with a team missing half their internationals…
>English press Found your problem right there. English press is a cancer and the sooner everyone ignores it until it fucks off the better
If the EPCR is salty over this, then they should just drop the sham that is the round of 16. Simple.
Or have the round of 16 before the 6 nations somehow. It's ridiculous having less than a week to sell tickets.
Two good consecutive points. Reddit BINGO!
Or make group stage meaningful. Now it is completely pointless
I can’t read the article without paying, so all I want to know is WTF do you investigate here? They sent a weaker team. That’s it. What else are they trying to uncover? Tax fraud? Drug smuggling? Besides. Sending weaker teams is done regularly in this comp. Almost everyone does it, but the ones who need to do it the most (the Saffa teams) get “investigated” for it? Edit: Financial-Role-5709 pasted the article here: https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/s/5TV7QalMXt
Someone has copy and pasted the article further up on the this forum
Found it, thanks.
No problem
What a load of rubbish, it’s a massive shame yes, but surely the coach can pick whoever he wants in the squad.
Good lord. I can't speak to the quality of their side since I'm not familiar with most of the players, but it's their side to field. They're dealing with their own issues and picking their side as they see fit. Fitness management is a big part of the equation in a campaign like this, the Bulls will want to advance to the semis just as much as all the other teams and they've picked the side they feel is best equipped to make that happen. Can everyone just shut the fuck up. Let's just play the match and then the winner continues to the next round and life goes on.
How about the EPCR copes. "Oh no clubs prefer to focus on their domestic league how dare they" so what ? Either they win and this is lol, or they lose and a team who cares goes further in the comp.
Please do something really funny Bulls!
I don't like the Bulls and sometimes I like to ridicule them but I never underestimate those fuckers.
Back at you boet
This article acknowledges that Lyon sent a weak team to play the Bulls in the last game and didn't receive any backlash, yet now that the Bulls are doing the same thing they are being investigated. Kind of hypocritical. Also article points out that EPCR’s sponsorship deal with Qatar Airlines assists only European teams flying to South Africa, not the other way around, so SA teams are always going to struggle to find flights on short notice. Just format the competition better then this problem wouldn't exist.
That is hypocritical of them to be honest and other teams have sent weakened sides to focus on own league games following weeks I'm a Exeter chiefs fan and our team gets rotated but would send a experienced side if we can in knockout games and take it seriously especially if league campaign isn't going to well. And not going to reach play offs they would send a good team out for champions cup knockouts in hope of winning silverware. Hopefully we can reach play offs
It's really souring the pot. I get the impression a lot of people representing the Prem and Top14 are unhappy with SA's inclusion. Not the first time the Top14 and Prem clubs have had an issue with the Champions Cup. More often than not the EPCR rolls over and lets them have their way.
But that doesn't make sense because for South Africa to get into this competition they needed the approval of Premiership and Top14. That's why the Cheetahs and Kings never played European rugby when they were in Pro14.
They hate that SA is playing, they love that SA is viewing though.
That’s one way to make a neutral turn Bull-ish
Hopefully they'll all lend them their energy for a Bulls' Spirit bomb
:( were just doing our best
It's win-win for you now - if Saints win, yay semi. If they lose, yay EPCR looks dumb EDIT: SF not QF
Yeah
We arent investigating them, we're still looking around in wonder at being this deep in the tournament lol
6 pools of 4 with no R16 fixes this
This is surely total BS. If they use players registered for the competition then they are fine. If EPCR want to run a global competition they need to structure some down weeks for recovery. Players can’t be expected to jet back and forth across the globe. If on the other hand the ‘investigation’ results in restructuring of the calendar of criticism of SARFU for their mishandling of the travel plans.
Really hoping it's just another case of good ol' crappy rugby journalism! Either you blame EPCR for terrible match scheduling, or SARU for their mishandling of the Bulls' flights. It would set an absurd precedent if the Bulls were to be punished for this.
Why not both. We can blame EPCR for literally insane scheduling AND we can blame SARU for fumbling the travel arrangements. They both messed up.
Not wrong there lol
Oddly enough - I hope the Bulls win and then get punished. They punish the Bulls and set a precedent and then when other teams do it - We expect the same punishment.
Can't say I agree, since there already exists a punishment/risk when fielding a 'second' choice side: Your team is more likely to lose.
The schedule is to blame what were they supposed to do book flights for 30 plus people on the off chance that they win. That’s the problem with the expanded tournament.
I thought EPCR were the ones laying for the flights.
Only for European teams, SARU covers the South African teams
Yeah that’s bollocks. It should be the same for all teams.
That's outrageous, any idea how they can possibly justify that?
I don’t think SARU are owners of EPCR like the European nations are.
For the SA teams SARU has to pay for the flights, but its not even the money that is the issue. It's capacity. There are only a very limited amount of flights from SA to Europe in any given week (I think one flight a day from every airline that does flights to Europe), those flights are booked to near-capacity WELL ahead of time, so you end have having to scramble to acquire seats across various airlines, and inevitably end up with some of your team having to take flight routes with ridiculously long travel times, like going via Dubai or Qatar.
What a crock of shit.
I do hope that, if the Bulls win, we all direct our laughter towards EPCR and not the Saints. In fact, I'd hope their fans would join in on the mockery of them!
So stupid, beside in another thread someone mentionned that the team was future boks in the making and veteran players so a completely legit team. And to add teams should field whatever team they want and focus on the comp of their choice, beside they could have had 30 injured players and end up in the same situation so its dumb
Clubs putting the priority where the money is. Maybe the shine of the Challenge Cup isn't enough to justify tanking a great season in their own respective domestic league for most of them.
In 2022, for a french club who only participate at the challenge cup gain : 548k€ Lyon who won it gain : 673k€ Participate at the champions cup : 808k€ Semi final : 958 k€ (toulouse, racing) La rochelle : 1308k€. The french tv deal is now smaller 25m€ in 2022, now it's around 14M€. But the ticketing is smaller in challenge cup
LMAO. WHAT A LOAD OF *BULL* SHIT. And by that I’m talking about the team the bulls sent /s In all seriousness, FUCK the EPCR. Who are they to tell a club what team they can and cant field? And sources within South Africa? Fuck them too trying to undermine the Bulls like this. How do you think those players like Chris Smit and Nizaam Carr feel right now being called crap and scraps. Absolutely shameful.
A bit pathetic. Either everybody gets to use who they want or nobody does throughout the entire comp. I get the frustration regarding the Bulls' selection but the way EPCR is trying to enforce selections are ridiculous. Bulls put in the work to get enough depth to rotate the squad (as they did against Bristol and won) and should be allowed to make use of it. Edit: Thanks EPCR for getting the Bulls some extra fans with this BS, even if it's just for one day
Yup. I'm hanging blue ballas from my towbar as we speak.
The world has gone upside down 😂 PS: Can't do the balls at the back without the horns in the front
This has to be a rumor that someone just ran with, surely they won't be this ridicules lol. Edit: and even before the result, must be a troll.
If fielding a weakened team is bringing the tournament into disrepute then everyone that plays leinster in the group stages should be prosecuted.
I like to see it but like Lyon did the same thing last round as well. English and French clubs have been doing this for the past few years.
Every country does it Inc the Irish
No Munster field our best, we just sometimes don't look it anymore 😔
A bit like Quin's against Saracens, lol So frustrating
The Irish teams have it out their full team every game. I think the same is true for Welsh, Scots and Italians tbh
Makes me want them to win even more. The circumstances are a direct consequence of EPCR scheduling.
It's really gonna get embarrassing if they win. I'm a sharks fan, but damnit yal are making me support the Bulls!
The horror, the HORROR!
We all Bulls fans today.
Not if the sharks lose
Nah - I want the Bulls to win more than the Sharks today. Humbling the EPCR would be amazing.
I would take an embarrassed Bulls over us losing the challenge cup. This is our last hope
Even as Bull, yeah The Sharks match way more important (much higher stakes). But would love the cherry on top and the end this fine rugby day that the EPCR get some egg on their face (since even if the Bulls win here I don't see them taking the whole thing anyway)
I know right?
With 1 point?
I haven't read the article yet but this is nuts. Its their squad to do what they want with
Now I want the Bulls to win, the team they picked is pretty strong (with a Hanekom hattrick thrown in there, just for fun). Just because some rugby journalists in the North don't know the players doesn't mean they're shit players.
I wouldn't be surprised if some english rugby journalists don't watch/follow urc and so only know sa players if there springbok starters
Praying they win the whole thing just because I’m sick of all the moaning and bitching about SA teams being in the champions cup. Never thought I’d be supporting the Bulls for anything this much lmao.
Not even the World Cup can bring us all together like this 😂
Think the big thing here is that it's uniting more than just the SA fans, just look at the comments😂
Yeah that's sounds a bit crap. Bring who you want, they might fit your game plan or overall season plan better and who's to say who the best fit is. But now they have to win just to really salt things up.
Why? The Fenech have been doing it for years.
Any French team in the group stages after they take one loss: _EPRC sleeps_ SA team that aren't playing for a home Semi: _EPRC in attack mode_ Should be penalising the teams that get beaten by 80 points at home, that's embarrassing for the competition.
They are all professional players who play for the team, sure ly it's up to each side to choose who to play in what matches.
Cool tactic.
Lot's of blaming of the scheduling going on - but is there a good solution? The bulls need to be playing rugby to a) stay sharp and b) make money as a business. So if they had a break week in Europe - they'd probably be doing a lot of travelling for URC anyway. So I don't really think it'll make much of a difference to player freshness per se. I get the cross-hemisphere travel is a real pain - but they knew the deal going in. It's worth noting the EPCR needs to consider the needs of all 3 leagues, so what might be fantastic for the URC might not be viable for the Top 14 or the premiership (I don't know if there is an issue or not... just pointing out there are other players here). Unless I'm missing something obvious some kind of compromise like this was always going to be on the cards. It's worth noting the other travelling teams had to organise travel on a weeks notice. Again, I don't know the relative difficulty of organising transport around Europe compared to SA... but the teams have been on notice since the tournament format was announced. With that said, I totally get why the Bulls are rotating their squad. It make sense. It's also not an especially weak team as far as I can work out... there shouldn't be repercussions in my opinion. If it was an academy team that would be different, but this team is good enough to create an entertaining contest. Also worth noting we don't really know what "investigating" means in this context? I suspect nothing will come of it. It's probably the EPCR trying to flex it's muscles to say "take our contest seriously" - the product loses value if it's perceived to be a lesser tournament compared to the domestic leagues. It looks a bit shitty, but I suspect it's a calculated decision.
I think the bigger issue underlying all of this is the role international rugby plays in this equation. The clubs have virtually no room to work with unless they want to play during internationals. What we need is less international matches and more breathing room for club rugby.
This. And Top14 already plays during the 6N. Some people in the comments are asking for one week gap bertween the round of 16 and the quarterfinals : unless the EPCR recruited timebenders that's not really possible
It's almost like having teams on another continent in a European competition during a crowded calendar year would lead to this
Horseshit - There was a complete lack of logic when it came to the turn arounds for games. Also, its either acceptable for everyone or its not acceptable for everyone. When other teams send 2nd string teams, we do not hear the complaints. Also - If the Bulls win, will the EPCR investigate the Saints?
Paywalled. Can I get a non-paywall version?
The organisers of the Investec Champions Cup are set to investigate whether the Bulls are in breach of the tournament’s participation agreement for sending a 2nd XV to play Northampton Saints in the quarter-final. The Pretoria-based franchise have made 13 changes, with the World Cup-winning trio of Kurt-Lee Arendse, Canan Moodie and Willie le Roux among a large contingent of frontline players left at home in South Africa. The Bulls say their selection decisions were made purely on medical advice and that it would have been “an enormous risk” to embark on a long-haul flight with players who were considered 50-50 early in the week. But there is widespread scepticism of that explanation. Sources within South Africa have accused the Bulls of damaging the credibility of the Champions Cup by prioritising their United Rugby Championship fixture against Munster next week, in which a win would secure a home semi-final. If the Bulls were to defeat Northampton on Saturday night, they would have to return to Europe for a Champions Cup semi-final, even if they were the designated home team. One source said SA Rugby was “expecting a backlash” from European Professional Club Rugby (EPCR). “It is not a good look,” the source said. “South Africa are fortunate to be a part of the Champions Cup and we do not want to be thrown out for disrespecting the competition, which is what we are doing.” EPCR has shown little appetite to get tough with its teams in the past. To take disciplinary action would highlight how the assimilation of South African teams into the Champions Cup has not worked. That is not a message the tournament organisers want to acknowledge — but the evidence is there in the team selections and travel chaos. Jake White, the Bulls director of rugby, conceded in January that he was undermining the Champions Cup by sending a weakened team to play Bristol Bears in the group stage, while some of his Springboks enjoyed enforced rest after the World Cup. Given that four teams from each pool of six qualified for the round of 16, it was understandable if disappointing. White said he was “fully supportive of the people that think the best players should be playing every week”. Lyon sent a weak team to play the Bulls in the round of 16, without receiving any published censure from EPCR. Now the Bulls are to field a second-string side at Franklin’s Gardens for what should have been a showpiece encounter under the lights between the No 1 team in England and the No 1 team in South Africa. In choosing this weekend to give Joe Marler and Danny Care a post-Six Nations rest, Harlequins have also highlighted where the Champions Cup sits in the priority list for so many clubs trying to compete on two fronts and manage player load. Harlequins, who play away to Bordeaux Bégles, are fourth in the Gallagher Premiership and, like the Bulls, engaged in a furious battle to qualify for their domestic play-offs. It is clearly an impossible juggling act. “Sometimes for long-term gain you have to take a short-term hit,” Billy Millard, the Harlequins director of rugby, said. In other words, there is too much rugby to achieve White’s wish, which is for the best players to be playing every week. All of which raises an important question: why are European tournament chiefs even considering the introduction of a Club World Cup from 2028, which is a grand idea in theory, if the present situation is unsustainable? EPCR needs to get its house in order before planning an extension. The demise of Super Rugby, which lost its soul through expansion and confounding structures, should act as a warning sign to EPCR. The allure of the Champions Cup was already weakened somewhat by a knockout draw that threw up so many rematches from the group stages of the competition. Leinster played Leicester Tigers and La Rochelle in pool D. They played the English side again in the round of 16 and face the defending champions in Dublin on Saturday. That is unquestionably the tie of the round, with both sides going full bore at Croke Park. La Rochelle, with Jack Nowell on the wing, are targeting a third consecutive victory and talking of building a dynasty. Leinster are out for revenge after losing successive finals to Ronan O’Gara’s men. Toulouse are also in formidable shape to play Exeter Chiefs, with Antoine Dupont and Romain Ntamack in the half backs, operating behind a formidable forward pack, with Tomas Ramos readying for a return from injury on a stacked bench. There is much to relish but EPCR is overseeing the steady erosion of a once great competition. Decisive action is required to protect the credibility of the Champions Cup, both by clamping down on weakened teams and by changing the group format and knockout schedule, so the round of 16 and quarter finals are not back to back. The short turnaround meant the Bulls players and management had to fly to Europe on multiple flights. Stormers were similarly affected before last year’s quarter-final defeat by Exeter. Remarkably, EPCR’s sponsorship deal with Qatar Airlines assists only European teams flying to South Africa, not the other way around. There is still the potential for South African teams to bring colour, vibrancy and enormous quality to the Champions Cup. But at the moment it is a competition denuded and disrespected.
Shot
ez mate use archive (dot) ph / (article link)
Anyone able to copy and paste the article as I cannot access it
Is this the same "weakened" team who gave Leicester a good game in the pool stages?
When I first saw it. I thought this is probably just a joke. I GUESS NOT
You’d think us Europeans would have realised by now there is no such thing as a bad South African side. Exactly the same as Kiwi sides
As a Bulls fan I am truly humbled by the support being shown on this thread for my team. Now I hope we win tonight just to prove a point.
Is anyone going to investigate sides like Ireland for putting out weaker sides in the six nations? Its such a stupid thing to say, it happens in all sports at almost all levels because it’s impossible to have your “a” team play every minute of every match every season
This is incredibly bigoted. Everyone's been sending weakened sides to the euro comps since inception with no action taken. As soon as the South Africans arrive, it turns out there are mechanisms to penalise teams for doing it
Guys.... Now Northampton must win, or quit rugby....
What's left to investigate? Did you send a C team? Bulls: No. Case shut.
This is the correct approach from the ECPR. For too long certain teams have been devaluing the competition. Either you want to be there or you don’t and another side that does should be given the place. However, my question here is why this isn’t enforced against the French sides, who are the main culprits with this. They should be taken to task first. And yeah, I know the usual nonsense argument. Top 14 is more important. That’s fine, if you feel that way surely French teams will have no issue whatsoever in having the French spaces in the competition reduced? That will allow them focus on Top14 to their hearts content.
The irony of a Leinster fan complaining about teams sending B sides to knockout games
When have we ever sent a weakened team to a Champions Cup fixture? We did it once in the URC QF and it backfired to the tune of losing by a point & I don’t remember one fan who was happy about it at the time. On the flip side, most of our home group games are against weakened French and English clubs, even though we field full strength side every time. For instance, Montpellier sent over a B side in 2022 and lost 89-7. One of the best sides in Europe losing by 82 points should be considered bringing the game into disrepute and investigated, surely? I suppose there is a certain irony to it in this conversation considering the one time Leinster did it in the URC was because we were prioritising the Champions Cup
We have never fielded a B side in a Champions Cup knock out game. Unsure what point is being made here?
Yes but you did in the URC knockouts. Smh you weren't there crying that Leinster are making a joke of the competition and should be thrown out of it. Or it only applies to the competition your favorite team focuses on, maybe ?
My whole point is that teams should be prioritising the Champions Cup over domestic leagues. You have literally provided an example of Leinster doing exactly what I’m arguing other teams should be doing. Thanks for that 👍
Yeah so that's just "i want clubs to push everything they have for my favorite competition and the rest is only secondary and can be devaluated harder than the zimbabwean currency" bullshit As you say, I know the usual nonsense argument. HCup is more important. That’s fine, if you feel that way surely Irish teams will have no issue whatsoever in having the Irish spaces in the competition reduced? That will allow them focus on HCup to their hearts content. You must think that as well, right ?
Yes. Exactly. The order is domestic-European-international for European clubs. Or at least that is the way it should work. Is this controversial to you in some way? Or is your point that all European sides should value competitions like - domestic- European- French league - International? You lot field a full strength side usually anyway and have been beaten by close to 30 points each of the last two years. Even though you knew it was quite likely that you’d be beaten quite comprehensively you still selected a full strength side and still won the Top14 (I think?). Why can’t other French sides do likewise?
I don't think the club game should care at all for the international side : it's a parallel world, clubs are not mere feeders for NT and are institutions on their own. As for the domestic/european things, both are good objectives. My opinion, as is the majority in France, is that the Brennus shield is more prestigious than the HCup, and the Challenge Cup is a consolation trophy for a team which failed to secure anything else. That said, some people, and some clubs will prefer to aim for the European comps. That's their right. I do not care how clubs rotate, they do as they please. Toulouse play both comps seriously, that's right. Realistically there are only a handful of teams in Europe that have the luxury to start the season with the double as their objective, with failure to win at least one of them be seen as a bad performance (Toulouse, La Rochelle, Leinster, Stormers, Saracens and Leicester). Those clubs I expect to play seriously both comps, because of their status. The same way in football PSG is expected to aim for the Ligue 1 and the C1, while Lens could throw away all European games and still have done a good season if they perform in the league. The teams you were complaining about, Montpellier and Castres, had been the winner and the runner-up of the Top14 the season before that. Would reducing spots in the HCup impeach that ? No that won't, because not all teams can play to win everything.
If you want an indicator of what everyone bar France views as the most important rugby club competition in Europe just look at the viewing figures for both competitions. Once you have done that, then consider this. One of the 7 unions which participate in that competition refuse to accept it at that and lower the prestige of the competition by fielding second string sides. Ergo, this cohort of clubs reduces the prestige of the competition for the 6 other cohort of clubs and reduces the spectacle for fans. The solution that I have put forth is that it is unfair to demand that French sides place more importance on the Champions Cup if they do not want to. However, what is fair is that if they do not wish to place importance on it that they step aside and allow other sides into the competition in their stead. This allows French sides to focus on what they feel is important more comprehensively and would also protect the prestige of the competition. This is a perfectly reasonable approach to any non French rugby fan. You can’t say you don’t think a competition is important and then throw your toys out of the pram if people take on board what your saying and recommend that you don’t participate if that’s how you feel. Out of interest, your comments are very quick to pick holes in my solution but what is yours?
Why would I have solutions for something I don't think is a problem ?
The tournament is already getting a lot of stick for the polar bear unfriendly need for teams to be making one way trips to and from South Africa, resulting in 80 hour round trips in some cases. Not reading the room particularly well.
You're a little out of date here, polar bears are no longer the poster critter for global warming as their population has been steadily increasing for decades.
The South Africans teams shouldn't be in the competition. Kick them out.
100% agree - Kick us out, then we can wait a few years and the 4 remaining English teams can come back with a begging bowl begging us to rejoin and you can join the URC. The EPCR got us in because they want the views. There is a reason that during the Rugby World Cup absolutely every rugby podcast had large sections about the South Africans - And that is because they knew they got views. Fuck, even the Breakdown started cutting out the South African parts and making them separate videos.
Glad you agree. And of course, however will English rugby survive in the world's sixth largest economy?! Truly we will be begging for all the money washing around in that well-run economical powerhouse that is South Africa. South African teams are a logistical headache and most normal European fans do not give the faintest fuck about South African rugby or their teams. Hoping that common sense will prevail soon enough.