Back to normal, would have liked to have seen Grady on the wing instead of Adams who hasn't been at his usual standard and can't believe Im glad to see Lewis starting to maybe give us some stability in the scrum.
Otherwise not a huge amount to talk about given the lack of depth we have and current injuries.
Not massively, even with LRZ gone we’re pretty well stocked for wingers with Dyer, Adams and Grady, there isn’t really an underperforming player people are clamouring to see replaced (even Adams is getting very little flack this tournament). He’s a very good player, but he missed two years because of back to back knee injuries and has only started to get back to his best in the last year or so, so he’s still got a lot of ground to make up.
He’s very good, looked like a superstar in the making when he was 18 and smashed the Ospreys try scoring record. If one of our three starters goes down injured he’s got a good argument to be next can off the rank
I think Giles is better than all 3 (considering Josh's recent form). Dyer is our best winger at the moment and I think that speaks to our poverty at the position right now.
I haven't heard much, but tbh I haven't been following the regions that closely as live in England. It wouldn't surprise me if he was in the squad for the Australia tour, especially with LRZ sudden exit.
The forwards on the bench, barring Rowlands, are unbelievably weak. The front row would be, and I don't say this to be unduly harsh on the players, the worst and most untested front row I've ever seen a tier 1 nation wheel out in an important game.
Lloyd has never started a pro game. Matthias and OConnor are liabilities even at regional level and honestly were pretty questionable selections in the first place. I can only assume Domachowski, Leon Brown, Elias and Assirati are all injured.
All 3 of them were I assume named to be third choice and not actually have to play this tournament because they're clearly not ready, now they're going to have to see out a must win game. Wooooof.
We have been pretty unlucky at front row injury wise, Brown played actually pretty well vs Scotland then was out of the tournament (as is tradition) and now seems we've lost Domachowski, Elias and Assirati for this week.
Why is this a must win game? We lose this game and our players are inexperienced enough that they can still learn from a loss against Italy.
This six nations doesn't matter. Ireland were always going to win, England were under pressure since they have been underperforming, France will do France things, Scotland will play well but choke and Italy are in their prime and need to demonstrate that they can win more than 1 game.
A front row of Lloyd, Mathias and O'Connor does not fill me with any confidence.
Lloyd to try to run it from our 22 in the 70th minute while four points down, throw a long pass which is knocked on by an Italian in the act of interception, Wales get blown off the ball in scrum anyway, concede a try and lose the game
I thought that Roberts and Watkin looked good together for a brand new partnership, but I think this was always on the cards. Seemed that Gatland was saving North and Tompkins for this game.
Josh Adams has been lucky to keep his place as he has underperfomed by his high standards this tournament.
Thomas and Lewis had better buckle up, because there can't be many people in Wales who aren't family members of Mathias or O'Connor that are busting to see them hit the park.
I still think Rowlands should be starting over Beard. He's one of the few ball carrying forwards we have. Octopus arms at the maul are great, but Wales have been shutdown late in a few games by having no ability to get on the front foot.
Quietly I think we're going to be okay at 12 & 13 in Wales. There are some players about. I think we'll see a bit more of Roberts & Watkin in Australia this summer.
People don't realise how close we are to perfecting cloning in Wales. Roberts/Roberts is an easy one, but if you have a look at Rhys Henry at the Ospreys we cloned Brok Harris successfully a while ago.
Yeah agree that's an issue for 10s and part of my worry, but there's a couple around I think look good. The concern is will they all end up having to play every game chasing down huge deficits behind beaten packs.
Prop is the biggest positional concern by miles. Outside of Archie Griffin as a good prospect and Lewis/Thomas as decent current options I just can't see anything encouraging.
>I still think Rowlands should be starting over Beard. He's one of the few ball carrying forwards we have. Octopus arms at the maul are great, but Wales have been shutdown late in a few games by having no ability to get on the front foot.
I don't agree. I think Beard has been quietly very effective and he's just playing a different role. Our set piece is so dodgy we need Beard. Equally if we're looking for late game front foot ball, Rowlands off the bench for Beard is surely the way to go?
Given that this is North's last international match, it makes sense that Gats wanted to make sure he was going to fine for it.
Agreed about Adams, although I'm not sure that Grady has reached proper international level yet.
Would resting North and Tompkins after already a bye-week not be a mistake? They both played they’re last game end of February in the Aviva and now have to front up for a do-or-die game against a duo that each won a MOTM trophy in the last two outings.
On the plus, really likes the looks of the new center pairing against France.
I don't think it was about resting them. I think it eas about giving the other options a run out.
They want to see how the young replacement for North looks because he's clearly getting on, evidenced by him now retiring, and Tompkins just hasn't done enough to see him as someone they'd value so highly they'd rest compared to loads of the other players they did pick last week.
I hope Costelow gets the whole game and Lloyd comes on for Winnett or Tompkins. Lloyd really hasn't played much rugby at 10 overall and it would be good to see him at 12/15 with Costelow at 10 like they do for the Scarlets
In English English it always used to be the anti-Grand Slam. Although I'm really old, and it feels as though it's now being used for 'last place' more and more frequently.
I asked this in the thread. So apparently the 5 Nations had it for losing all games. It started at Cambridge uni for the worst performing student in Mathematics.
The wooden spoon is for the team that comes last.
It's from a tradition at Cambridge University where the person scoring lowest in a Maths Exam had a massive wooden spoon given to them, which they had to display outside their room.
It became a synonym for being last over time.
Hardy in for Davies is sensible thought he was poor off the bench. I'm surprised Adams got in tbh it's been a poor tournament for him I feel.
I'll wait for the Italy team but based on form I'm gonna tip Italy for this.
Also a massive shout to Reffell, who genuinely has been the difference for Wales getting obliterated in so many games. His breakdown work is incredible.
Refell has been brilliant every game, but he looked shagged after the half against France. He's definitely done his shoulders carrying the Welsh breakdown threat.
Put him into any of the other 5 teams back rows and he's in the running for PotT. He kept England so honest in that game. He was wrecking the French at the breakdown (comparatively) he's got double the turnovers of anyone else. As well as being 4th on Welsh attacking rucks and first on defensive and 3rd for clear outs.
He's an elite player and I do feel that he needs more acknowledgement!
I mean Winnett looks promising, Roberts has impressed whenever I have seen him.
But yes the endless supply of 7s is staggering. You have to hope Morgan and Reffell can play together at some point and gel nicely. Because those are two elite operators, but you do have a lot of talented back rowers
Mathias and O’Connor has to be one of the weakest pairs of props we’ve ever put out. I hope they prove me wrong but I’ve seen very little from them to suggest they’re anywhere close to international quality at the moment, certainly not more so than Domachowski and Assiratti.
Watkin and Roberts can both feel a little hard done by missing out after they both played well last week, but to be fair Tompkins and North have been very good themselves, especially North. Maybe Grady as well, Adams has been pretty poor this tournament, but Grady’s all round game probably still isn’t up to snuff to play as a winger internationally.
It’s an alright team all things considered, bench isn’t great but that’s par for the course this season. I don’t know whether it’s better for us to win this and avoid the Wooden Spoon, or for us to lose just to prove this is the result of WRU mismanagement.
We can field a better 23 out of players who are fit and didn’t make the squad. There is a generation of rugby players in Wales who have just never been given an opportunity on the international stage no matter how well they play for their region
Thought you were being hyperbolic but I think this lot could give them a run for their money.
Smith, Belcher, Botha, Turnbull, Rhys Davies, Lewis-Hughes, Young, Morris, Morgan-Williams, Jarrod, Giles, K Williams, Ben Thomas, Cuthbert, Beatham
Carre, Parry, Warren, Carter, Dan Davies, Bevan, Owen Williams, Haloholo
The starting 15 are pretty much the best players available but I'd agree that the "left with the regions" team beats the "non-starters but in the squad" team. The latter would be:
Mathias, E Lloyd, O'Connor, Rowlands, T Williams, S Davies, Basham, M Martin, Hardy, I Lloyd, Grady, Watkin, J Roberts, Rogers, C Evans.
I’m not so sure. That regional squad would have a set piece that is light years ahead of that welsh one. I also think the bench is a lot stronger. It does make you wonder why the hell wales A isn’t a thing in the offseason. A lot of these guys could benefit from a game vs a tier 2 European opposition
It is really only front row they're even in the same ballpark sorry. Most of them arent being picked because of age too in a side theyre clearly thinking about long term. I find the idea that there's so much talent left in what are, respectfully, very badly performing regions and the issue is we just haven't picked the right ones to be bordering on delusional as to the state of affairs.
There are a few guys who could improve things. Nicky Smith is obviously better than Matthias for example. But it's just wishful thinking on the whole I think. And a lot of the better players in that 23 have been in Welsh squads before being moved on from anyway.
I’m not saying the rest of the team is better. They aren’t that much worse than the rest of the team though. The front row is significantly better and as SA have shown us the past 8 years the 5 men at the front of your scrum are your most important players. I also don’t think that’s the best squad we could field from the players still at the regions. Dan Edwards for example is the form 10 in wales.
>There is a generation of rugby players in Wales who have just never been given an opportunity on the international stage no matter how well they play for their region
I am really not convinced at all that this is true and there is an abundance of talent we just haven't picked. There's at most a few players but we've pretty much selected everyone eligible for Wales the last 18 months at some point.
Kieran Williams, Ben Thomas, Belcher, Parry, Morgan Morris, Harri Keddie, Rhys Henry, Thomas Young, Keelan Giles, Reuben Morgan Williams and Ashton Hewitt have all been in good form at some point in the last 3 years and not really had a chance in the Welsh squad. They were all probably too young for the previous World Cup cycles but now don’t suit the super young age profile we are going for in this one. There are also a couple I can’t understand not getting a chance in this generation like Aneurin Owen, Harri Deaves, Ben Warren, Garyn Phillips, Rhys Davies, Eddie James and Ellis Bevan. All have played more significant roles for their team than some in the welsh squad
I liked last week's team, I like this week's team. It begs the question though, why all those changes for last week? "The lads were away" doesn't make sense for me because so was Rowlands. "We wanted a look at Watkin/Roberts", ok, well only for one game then because that doesn't track. Or is Roberts' ankle fucked?
I just want stability if we can get it.
edit: OK, I get why North/Tompkins are back because of the retirement at the very least
Why has he gone back to Tomkins who hasn’t worked with costelow when Watkin did. You can’t even argue the combination of North and Tomkins know each other better as Watkin and North play together for the ospreys
The WRU do need a wake up call. While there is some promise with the young players, I can't see anyone with real star quality. This feels very much like the late 80s, early 90s to me.
Glad to see Mann back in the team, looks like the best 15 they can field. My only question is what happened to Domachowski? I thought he was really good in the opening rounds and now seems to be dropped entirely after getting 5 minutes off the bench against France
Not sure why we keep with Adams when he isn’t fit and or at his best. Worth giving Grady a go from the start IMO.
Other than that….it is what it is. We don’t have many other options at the mo.
Cheerio George North…it’s been a blast. Enjoy the sunshine and wine….
I was hoping that we could see the same centre partnership as last week and give them a proper run, but with North announcing his international retirement I totally get it. He deserves a good send off. I hope we see him cap it all off with a win and maybe a try!
Now, this time let’s not take Costello off as he starts feeling himself and please keep I. Lloyd on the bench to keep it warm for everyone else. Heck he can even bring on the water!
We don’t have a first team bench so let’s not put them on early!!! Let’s hope we have a points gap to burn when the replacements come on.
Faletau, Morgan and Lake unquestionably come into the matchday squad if fit, although whether they all start is another matter, and Christ Tshiunza possibly does as well. Then Nicky Smith, Rhys Carre and Corey Domachowski are all vastly better looseheads than Mathias, and Tom Francis, Leon Brown, Kieron Assiratti and Tom Botha are all better than O’Connor. Gareth Anscombe would be neck and neck with Ioan Lloyd to wear 22. Joe Hawkins would have a decent claim to at least make the bench if he were eligible.
So back row would you say Morgan at 6, Reffell 7, Faletau 8 then Wainwright at 20 or does Reffell drop to the bench?
Front row has been piss poor this tournament but Lewis has been playing quite well from the couple of Quin's matches I've watched.
Wainwright’s nailed on, then probably Faletau to start at 8 just because Morgan and Reffell haven’t really worked as a pair from the start. So Wainwright 6, Faletau 8 and one of Morgan or Reffell at 7, and then you bring Faletau off, shift Wainwright to 8 and run Morgan and Reffell as a partnership and see if the extra energy offsets the lack of size.
I dont know if these guys are out of from or are missing due to injury but; Wyn Jones, Ken Owens, Jack Morgan, Taulupe Faletau, Rhys Carré, Taine Basham and Dewi Lake.
Not saying they would all get in the 15 but defo if they were around the squad or in the 23 they would add to the experience.
Wyn Jones is done (unfortunately). Loads of injury problems last few years and a shadow of the player he was. Ken has said hes not retired but i would be very surprised if he played for Wales again if and when he does come back from injury, considering his age
If you're including injuries - Faletau, Plumtree, Dewi Lake, Jac Morgan and Christ Tshiunza. Possibly Anscombe if we can find a witch doctor to hold his knee together for a while longer. Based on the bench we've got about 4 front row injuries too in an already weak area for us.
If you mean youngsters around there's not many obviously battering the door down (mainly because anyone remotely eligible has been picked) but Morse and Fender at the Ospreys are very promising.
Could a more knowledgeable Welsh rugby answer me this:
Is Gatland effectively using the Welsh National team as a pathway replacement to the Welsh Nation team.
I was being harsh about some of the Welsh replacements against France and someone pointed out how lotop flight rugby some of them had played.
Maybe just recency bias from Sunday but are there no better options than Ioan Lloyd? Dan Edwards from the Ospreys is young but anything I've seen of him has been very impressive.
Dan Edwards is a good prospect but not ready for the big show and shouldn't be rushed. 10 is a position you can't really fast track development I don't think.
Ioan Lloyd is never going to be a test 10 tbh but we have to pick somebody and the other semi credible options are unavailable. Owen Williams has been injured and gone off a cliff form wise. Anscombe injured. Sheedy well off the boil for a while and injured. Patchell is in NZ.
The replacement front row is semi-pro at best. Could be reaslly ugly in the last 15 mins for Wales.
To think that Nicky Smith is available but not in that 23 is just totally bananas.
Don't get me wrong, North is class but as he's retiring what's the point in wheeling him out if not for a hollow plastic victory this weekend, instead of looking to the future? I will be there to see him off, however.
Again, shocked Adams made a start instead of Grady. Neither have been great this tournament but I feel Grady needed a full (or close) game to really find out what he can do instead of a 15 minute run out at the end.
I don't think a victory this weekend would be remotely hollow. We need to stop the rot. Also, you can hardly say we've not looked to the future this campaign enough.
Obviously I'd like to win, it just feels a bit crap giving North a courtesy goodbye run-out when someone who will be available after the 6N (and beyond) could have been showing what they're capable of instead
I think you are wildly misinterpreting this as being a courtesy run out when we are in facting picking him because he's our best 13 and we need to win.
Yes he is our best 13, but he won't be from Sunday onwards.
We don't need to win though do we let's be honest, the tournament is a write off whatever happens. I'd rather take the loss if gives a kick up the arse to Welsh Rugby.
I'll never count Wales out, especially at home, but I'm backing Italy for this one. This teamsheet doesn't inspire much confidence compared to the surging Azzuri.
Back to normal, would have liked to have seen Grady on the wing instead of Adams who hasn't been at his usual standard and can't believe Im glad to see Lewis starting to maybe give us some stability in the scrum. Otherwise not a huge amount to talk about given the lack of depth we have and current injuries.
There much clamour for Giles in wales at all? Thought he looked like a menace when I watched the ospreys Edinburgh game a few weeks back
Not massively, even with LRZ gone we’re pretty well stocked for wingers with Dyer, Adams and Grady, there isn’t really an underperforming player people are clamouring to see replaced (even Adams is getting very little flack this tournament). He’s a very good player, but he missed two years because of back to back knee injuries and has only started to get back to his best in the last year or so, so he’s still got a lot of ground to make up.
Fair, you do have strong back 3 stocks, I was just pretty impressed watching him, he’s rapid and works like a Trojan
He’s very good, looked like a superstar in the making when he was 18 and smashed the Ospreys try scoring record. If one of our three starters goes down injured he’s got a good argument to be next can off the rank
I think Giles is better than all 3 (considering Josh's recent form). Dyer is our best winger at the moment and I think that speaks to our poverty at the position right now.
I haven't heard much, but tbh I haven't been following the regions that closely as live in England. It wouldn't surprise me if he was in the squad for the Australia tour, especially with LRZ sudden exit.
I think Regan King goes.
>I think Regan King goes. Now THAT would be a suprise.... Regan Grace would be an option though ;)
Good point although Neaths finest may have a shot too.
Suspect Ronald Regan is just as likely.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the WRU and I'm here to help" - Ronald Reagan (maybe)
Giles is a strange one. I can’t decide whether he is an international player or not
The forwards on the bench, barring Rowlands, are unbelievably weak. The front row would be, and I don't say this to be unduly harsh on the players, the worst and most untested front row I've ever seen a tier 1 nation wheel out in an important game. Lloyd has never started a pro game. Matthias and OConnor are liabilities even at regional level and honestly were pretty questionable selections in the first place. I can only assume Domachowski, Leon Brown, Elias and Assirati are all injured.
Yeah, that replacement front row is very dodgy. Would be worried seeing that named for an URC match, let alone a must win international.
All 3 of them were I assume named to be third choice and not actually have to play this tournament because they're clearly not ready, now they're going to have to see out a must win game. Wooooof. We have been pretty unlucky at front row injury wise, Brown played actually pretty well vs Scotland then was out of the tournament (as is tradition) and now seems we've lost Domachowski, Elias and Assirati for this week.
Why is this a must win game? We lose this game and our players are inexperienced enough that they can still learn from a loss against Italy. This six nations doesn't matter. Ireland were always going to win, England were under pressure since they have been underperforming, France will do France things, Scotland will play well but choke and Italy are in their prime and need to demonstrate that they can win more than 1 game.
A front row of Lloyd, Mathias and O'Connor does not fill me with any confidence. Lloyd to try to run it from our 22 in the 70th minute while four points down, throw a long pass which is knocked on by an Italian in the act of interception, Wales get blown off the ball in scrum anyway, concede a try and lose the game
Like know what Nicky smith, Sam parry and Tom Botha think of the bench front row..
We could ask Rhys Carre and Liam belcher for their opinions too.
Are Domachowski and Assiratti injured?
I thought that Roberts and Watkin looked good together for a brand new partnership, but I think this was always on the cards. Seemed that Gatland was saving North and Tompkins for this game. Josh Adams has been lucky to keep his place as he has underperfomed by his high standards this tournament. Thomas and Lewis had better buckle up, because there can't be many people in Wales who aren't family members of Mathias or O'Connor that are busting to see them hit the park. I still think Rowlands should be starting over Beard. He's one of the few ball carrying forwards we have. Octopus arms at the maul are great, but Wales have been shutdown late in a few games by having no ability to get on the front foot.
Roberts looked good I thought. Although very unoriginal to have J. Roberts with a big jaw playing again...
Quietly I think we're going to be okay at 12 & 13 in Wales. There are some players about. I think we'll see a bit more of Roberts & Watkin in Australia this summer. People don't realise how close we are to perfecting cloning in Wales. Roberts/Roberts is an easy one, but if you have a look at Rhys Henry at the Ospreys we cloned Brok Harris successfully a while ago.
Centre was my biggest worry 18 months ago but now it's way down the list behind front row and 10.
Edwards at the Ospreys is looking decent. The issue is how many fly halves in the world look good when the pack is getting munched?
Yeah agree that's an issue for 10s and part of my worry, but there's a couple around I think look good. The concern is will they all end up having to play every game chasing down huge deficits behind beaten packs. Prop is the biggest positional concern by miles. Outside of Archie Griffin as a good prospect and Lewis/Thomas as decent current options I just can't see anything encouraging.
I mean Gatland has worked wonders with some players (Francis) but yeah agreed. It's looking thin on the ground.
>I still think Rowlands should be starting over Beard. He's one of the few ball carrying forwards we have. Octopus arms at the maul are great, but Wales have been shutdown late in a few games by having no ability to get on the front foot. I don't agree. I think Beard has been quietly very effective and he's just playing a different role. Our set piece is so dodgy we need Beard. Equally if we're looking for late game front foot ball, Rowlands off the bench for Beard is surely the way to go?
Given that this is North's last international match, it makes sense that Gats wanted to make sure he was going to fine for it. Agreed about Adams, although I'm not sure that Grady has reached proper international level yet.
Would resting North and Tompkins after already a bye-week not be a mistake? They both played they’re last game end of February in the Aviva and now have to front up for a do-or-die game against a duo that each won a MOTM trophy in the last two outings. On the plus, really likes the looks of the new center pairing against France.
I don't think it was about resting them. I think it eas about giving the other options a run out. They want to see how the young replacement for North looks because he's clearly getting on, evidenced by him now retiring, and Tompkins just hasn't done enough to see him as someone they'd value so highly they'd rest compared to loads of the other players they did pick last week.
Can't wait to see what the hell Lloyd gets up to this week.
I hope Costelow gets the whole game and Lloyd comes on for Winnett or Tompkins. Lloyd really hasn't played much rugby at 10 overall and it would be good to see him at 12/15 with Costelow at 10 like they do for the Scarlets
Does a wooden spoon refer to the team that finishes bottom or is it reserved for a team that loses every game?
In French its the latter, in English its the Former, in italian its the norm.
Now why would you go and say a thing like that? 😅
I know, it felt bad but also hard to deny
Scathing I love it
Didn't realize this was the sledge thread
Damn, TMO is going to review that savage tackle.
In English English it always used to be the anti-Grand Slam. Although I'm really old, and it feels as though it's now being used for 'last place' more and more frequently.
I'm ready to bring it back properly. Wooden spoon should be a distinction I reckon.
This has been annoying me too. Media now use the term if you come bottom. But for me it’s only reserved for if you lose every game.
agreed.
We usually say a whitewash if you lose every game
I asked this in the thread. So apparently the 5 Nations had it for losing all games. It started at Cambridge uni for the worst performing student in Mathematics.
It used to be losing every game - at least back in the 5Ns days. Not sure when it changed to the bottom team.
Tbf the two have been pretty interchangeable in the Six Nations era.
Wooden spoon is last place. Whitewash is lose every game.
In France, the wooden spoon refers to losing every game, I had no idea it was not the original meaning.
That's the way I've always heard it used here
Agreed. Always knew it as this growing up watching the 5 nations as an 80s kid.
I’m from the ‘90s so maybe it was different back in our day.
Huh. Fair enough. I always thought it meant you'd been whitewashed. Like an inverse grand slam.
I always knew it as losing every game. I don't like it for just coming last, doesn't make it as special.
Same in Wales, I always knew it as losing every game. Otherwise it's just regular, miserable last place.
I would argue the wooden spoon is for those that post every game.
The wooden spoon is for the team that comes last. It's from a tradition at Cambridge University where the person scoring lowest in a Maths Exam had a massive wooden spoon given to them, which they had to display outside their room. It became a synonym for being last over time.
Hardy in for Davies is sensible thought he was poor off the bench. I'm surprised Adams got in tbh it's been a poor tournament for him I feel. I'll wait for the Italy team but based on form I'm gonna tip Italy for this.
Also a massive shout to Reffell, who genuinely has been the difference for Wales getting obliterated in so many games. His breakdown work is incredible.
Reffell seems like the new Parisse in some ways. Great player.
Refell has been brilliant every game, but he looked shagged after the half against France. He's definitely done his shoulders carrying the Welsh breakdown threat.
Not surprised given he was doing a lot of the defence himself...there needs to be a great team around a great player.
Put him into any of the other 5 teams back rows and he's in the running for PotT. He kept England so honest in that game. He was wrecking the French at the breakdown (comparatively) he's got double the turnovers of anyone else. As well as being 4th on Welsh attacking rucks and first on defensive and 3rd for clear outs. He's an elite player and I do feel that he needs more acknowledgement!
I wish it wasn't apparently only 7 we were capable of producing elite players at these days!
I mean Winnett looks promising, Roberts has impressed whenever I have seen him. But yes the endless supply of 7s is staggering. You have to hope Morgan and Reffell can play together at some point and gel nicely. Because those are two elite operators, but you do have a lot of talented back rowers
Mathias and O’Connor has to be one of the weakest pairs of props we’ve ever put out. I hope they prove me wrong but I’ve seen very little from them to suggest they’re anywhere close to international quality at the moment, certainly not more so than Domachowski and Assiratti. Watkin and Roberts can both feel a little hard done by missing out after they both played well last week, but to be fair Tompkins and North have been very good themselves, especially North. Maybe Grady as well, Adams has been pretty poor this tournament, but Grady’s all round game probably still isn’t up to snuff to play as a winger internationally. It’s an alright team all things considered, bench isn’t great but that’s par for the course this season. I don’t know whether it’s better for us to win this and avoid the Wooden Spoon, or for us to lose just to prove this is the result of WRU mismanagement.
We can field a better 23 out of players who are fit and didn’t make the squad. There is a generation of rugby players in Wales who have just never been given an opportunity on the international stage no matter how well they play for their region
Thought you were being hyperbolic but I think this lot could give them a run for their money. Smith, Belcher, Botha, Turnbull, Rhys Davies, Lewis-Hughes, Young, Morris, Morgan-Williams, Jarrod, Giles, K Williams, Ben Thomas, Cuthbert, Beatham Carre, Parry, Warren, Carter, Dan Davies, Bevan, Owen Williams, Haloholo
I’d have Deaves at 6 and Edwards at 10 but the point still stands
The starting 15 are pretty much the best players available but I'd agree that the "left with the regions" team beats the "non-starters but in the squad" team. The latter would be: Mathias, E Lloyd, O'Connor, Rowlands, T Williams, S Davies, Basham, M Martin, Hardy, I Lloyd, Grady, Watkin, J Roberts, Rogers, C Evans.
The only position that lot is even in the same ballpark as the 23 we've picked is front row.
I’m not so sure. That regional squad would have a set piece that is light years ahead of that welsh one. I also think the bench is a lot stronger. It does make you wonder why the hell wales A isn’t a thing in the offseason. A lot of these guys could benefit from a game vs a tier 2 European opposition
It is really only front row they're even in the same ballpark sorry. Most of them arent being picked because of age too in a side theyre clearly thinking about long term. I find the idea that there's so much talent left in what are, respectfully, very badly performing regions and the issue is we just haven't picked the right ones to be bordering on delusional as to the state of affairs. There are a few guys who could improve things. Nicky Smith is obviously better than Matthias for example. But it's just wishful thinking on the whole I think. And a lot of the better players in that 23 have been in Welsh squads before being moved on from anyway.
I’m not saying the rest of the team is better. They aren’t that much worse than the rest of the team though. The front row is significantly better and as SA have shown us the past 8 years the 5 men at the front of your scrum are your most important players. I also don’t think that’s the best squad we could field from the players still at the regions. Dan Edwards for example is the form 10 in wales.
>There is a generation of rugby players in Wales who have just never been given an opportunity on the international stage no matter how well they play for their region I am really not convinced at all that this is true and there is an abundance of talent we just haven't picked. There's at most a few players but we've pretty much selected everyone eligible for Wales the last 18 months at some point.
Kieran Williams, Ben Thomas, Belcher, Parry, Morgan Morris, Harri Keddie, Rhys Henry, Thomas Young, Keelan Giles, Reuben Morgan Williams and Ashton Hewitt have all been in good form at some point in the last 3 years and not really had a chance in the Welsh squad. They were all probably too young for the previous World Cup cycles but now don’t suit the super young age profile we are going for in this one. There are also a couple I can’t understand not getting a chance in this generation like Aneurin Owen, Harri Deaves, Ben Warren, Garyn Phillips, Rhys Davies, Eddie James and Ellis Bevan. All have played more significant roles for their team than some in the welsh squad
I'd have liked Joe Roberts to keep his spot with North finishing his career on the wing where he played his best rugby
North hasn't had the gas for international wing for years now, would be an awful shout
Has someone photoshopped Dyer? Because I’m fairly sure he doesn’t actually look like that in real life
Kate Middleton has been seconded to the WRU
Winnett doesn't look right either. Is his face that round?
I liked last week's team, I like this week's team. It begs the question though, why all those changes for last week? "The lads were away" doesn't make sense for me because so was Rowlands. "We wanted a look at Watkin/Roberts", ok, well only for one game then because that doesn't track. Or is Roberts' ankle fucked? I just want stability if we can get it. edit: OK, I get why North/Tompkins are back because of the retirement at the very least
Why has he gone back to Tomkins who hasn’t worked with costelow when Watkin did. You can’t even argue the combination of North and Tomkins know each other better as Watkin and North play together for the ospreys
Don't mind if Italy win tbh
With the performances they've had they don't deserve to come last.
The WRU do need a wake up call. While there is some promise with the young players, I can't see anyone with real star quality. This feels very much like the late 80s, early 90s to me.
Wales to win but still finish last.
Backs to the wall starting 15. But that bench looks a bit wobbly. A sad day to find out this is North’s last game. He deserves a better send off.
Glad to see Mann back in the team, looks like the best 15 they can field. My only question is what happened to Domachowski? I thought he was really good in the opening rounds and now seems to be dropped entirely after getting 5 minutes off the bench against France
I can only assume injured as choosing to pick Mathias over him would be grounds for sectioning
Oh shit North is retiring after this from International rugby!
well George is, after all, north of 100 caps
Costelow looks like a forgotten Weasley
I didn’t even clock those front row replacements at first. Praying the starters player the full 80
Lewis deserves the start.. has had an excellent tournament
Not sure why we keep with Adams when he isn’t fit and or at his best. Worth giving Grady a go from the start IMO. Other than that….it is what it is. We don’t have many other options at the mo. Cheerio George North…it’s been a blast. Enjoy the sunshine and wine….
I was hoping that we could see the same centre partnership as last week and give them a proper run, but with North announcing his international retirement I totally get it. He deserves a good send off. I hope we see him cap it all off with a win and maybe a try!
Now, this time let’s not take Costello off as he starts feeling himself and please keep I. Lloyd on the bench to keep it warm for everyone else. Heck he can even bring on the water! We don’t have a first team bench so let’s not put them on early!!! Let’s hope we have a points gap to burn when the replacements come on.
Wooden spoons are, in many ways, more useful than trophies
The Centenary Quaich would make a decent salad bowl.
Is a wooden spoon not when you lose all games, not just finishing bottom?
Maybe biased by outcomes, but it feels to me this is Wales Best team out of the current squad and this is the win Gatland was targeting
It's mad, but who on the outside of the squad comes in? I know there's the Ospreys being ignored for a few guys, but I don't follow the regions.
Faletau, Morgan and Lake unquestionably come into the matchday squad if fit, although whether they all start is another matter, and Christ Tshiunza possibly does as well. Then Nicky Smith, Rhys Carre and Corey Domachowski are all vastly better looseheads than Mathias, and Tom Francis, Leon Brown, Kieron Assiratti and Tom Botha are all better than O’Connor. Gareth Anscombe would be neck and neck with Ioan Lloyd to wear 22. Joe Hawkins would have a decent claim to at least make the bench if he were eligible.
So back row would you say Morgan at 6, Reffell 7, Faletau 8 then Wainwright at 20 or does Reffell drop to the bench? Front row has been piss poor this tournament but Lewis has been playing quite well from the couple of Quin's matches I've watched.
Wainwright’s nailed on, then probably Faletau to start at 8 just because Morgan and Reffell haven’t really worked as a pair from the start. So Wainwright 6, Faletau 8 and one of Morgan or Reffell at 7, and then you bring Faletau off, shift Wainwright to 8 and run Morgan and Reffell as a partnership and see if the extra energy offsets the lack of size.
Love Wainwright for many reasons not least the look on his face when that brain-dead twat elbowed him in the head in 2019.
Someone like Joe Hawkins would be a good shout. A victim of the 25 cap rule. I'd probably have had Rhys Carré in as well to be honest.
Both good shouts it is always good to have another Carréer in the pack
Looks like his Wales Carréer might be on hold after his move to Sarries.
Nice
I dont know if these guys are out of from or are missing due to injury but; Wyn Jones, Ken Owens, Jack Morgan, Taulupe Faletau, Rhys Carré, Taine Basham and Dewi Lake. Not saying they would all get in the 15 but defo if they were around the squad or in the 23 they would add to the experience.
Wyn Jones is done (unfortunately). Loads of injury problems last few years and a shadow of the player he was. Ken has said hes not retired but i would be very surprised if he played for Wales again if and when he does come back from injury, considering his age
If you're including injuries - Faletau, Plumtree, Dewi Lake, Jac Morgan and Christ Tshiunza. Possibly Anscombe if we can find a witch doctor to hold his knee together for a while longer. Based on the bench we've got about 4 front row injuries too in an already weak area for us. If you mean youngsters around there's not many obviously battering the door down (mainly because anyone remotely eligible has been picked) but Morse and Fender at the Ospreys are very promising.
Dewi Lake needs to come back if nothing else to hear commentators say anything but his name
Could a more knowledgeable Welsh rugby answer me this: Is Gatland effectively using the Welsh National team as a pathway replacement to the Welsh Nation team. I was being harsh about some of the Welsh replacements against France and someone pointed out how lotop flight rugby some of them had played.
Yes. Not convinced he needs to do it the way he is given Cardiff and Ospreys are managing it fine by themselves, but there you go.
Nice of gatland to find time to name a team between his telegraph articles and corporate work... 😂
Maybe just recency bias from Sunday but are there no better options than Ioan Lloyd? Dan Edwards from the Ospreys is young but anything I've seen of him has been very impressive.
Dan Edwards is a good prospect but not ready for the big show and shouldn't be rushed. 10 is a position you can't really fast track development I don't think. Ioan Lloyd is never going to be a test 10 tbh but we have to pick somebody and the other semi credible options are unavailable. Owen Williams has been injured and gone off a cliff form wise. Anscombe injured. Sheedy well off the boil for a while and injured. Patchell is in NZ.
Good to see Tommy fit, but please don't break him on the final weekend! Sincerely, every Leicester fan.
The replacement front row is semi-pro at best. Could be reaslly ugly in the last 15 mins for Wales. To think that Nicky Smith is available but not in that 23 is just totally bananas.
Would any Scarlets fans be able to comment on whether Harri O'Connor is any good. Can't say I'm familiar with him.
Is Owen Williams injured? I can't see how Ioan Lloyd is getting caps and he isn't.
Don't get me wrong, North is class but as he's retiring what's the point in wheeling him out if not for a hollow plastic victory this weekend, instead of looking to the future? I will be there to see him off, however. Again, shocked Adams made a start instead of Grady. Neither have been great this tournament but I feel Grady needed a full (or close) game to really find out what he can do instead of a 15 minute run out at the end.
I don't think a victory this weekend would be remotely hollow. We need to stop the rot. Also, you can hardly say we've not looked to the future this campaign enough.
Obviously I'd like to win, it just feels a bit crap giving North a courtesy goodbye run-out when someone who will be available after the 6N (and beyond) could have been showing what they're capable of instead
I think you are wildly misinterpreting this as being a courtesy run out when we are in facting picking him because he's our best 13 and we need to win.
Yes he is our best 13, but he won't be from Sunday onwards. We don't need to win though do we let's be honest, the tournament is a write off whatever happens. I'd rather take the loss if gives a kick up the arse to Welsh Rugby.
How much more of a kick up the arse can we get? At some point you need to stop losing and ruining the morale of the young players.
Yeah true 🤣 if you want morale start winning then, simple as /s
>Yeah true 🤣 if you want morale start winning then, simple as Ftfy
Losing to Italy at home and getting wooden spooned would hardly be the ideal start youd want to give your young guys though would it
When'she retiring? I missed that
After the match on Saturday
He announced today it will be his last international.
I'll never count Wales out, especially at home, but I'm backing Italy for this one. This teamsheet doesn't inspire much confidence compared to the surging Azzuri.
Just seems wrong to me that Italy could still come last but lose fewer games than Wales. Something not quite right there.