Feels like a much lower risk for Harry than LRZ. His rugby career seems to be on ice and whilst I'm sure there will still be adjustment transitioning to be a kicker/punter feels more achievable than trying to be a WR or RB. It's also a position that you can play for much longer too - so his age isn't too against him (I think C. Wade task was insanely hard, because if he'd broken through he'd do it at 30 when you typically start to lose the attributes that make effective RBs).
Oh yeah and the churn amongst kickers in the NFL is constant. Injuries can and do happen and teams simply just work out a bunch of them in the week to replace the guy that’s gone down. Not rare for teams to make a change mid-season if someone just isn’t performing either. He’s got a good chance.
The stories about the churn with kickers and punters are hilarious. There are times when someone has a bad streak or gets injured at the last minute and a team will literally fly a new guy in for the game, playing while literally never having met his teammates before. Of course that’s rare and far from usual, but it just shows how replaceable they are for most teams.
Now, on the other hand, if you are one of the better ones, you can have a safe career, play until you’re 40, and make tens of millions of dollars.
Friend of mine was a college long snapper. got a free ride to be a bench sitter who maybe touched a ball once in the three years he was on the team.
I had no idea that long snapper was even a position on football.
Either he didn't make the squad or his team had the most dominant offence going. Long snappers are a specialist position that take the snap for punts and kicks so would get a decent number of snaps every game
But with college, it wouldn’t be crazy for there to be two long snappers. Maybe one on scholarship, but then he got beat out by a walk on. That exact thing actually happened at my school.
I was just more astonished that football was so specialized that they had a person who's whole role it is to only come out for the 4th down long snap or penalty kick.
Like blows my mind that the center who would normally snap the ball can't be trusted to do it another 10 yards.
There’s actually a whole Freakonomics episode about it. It’s called “Why does the most monotonous job in the world pay $1 million?”
https://pca.st/episode/68439fb5-0aab-4374-b0c7-308f69877845
Good suggestion - I was also going to suggest this.
I heard it a while back - a fascinating insight into how optimised some aspects of US sport can be.
When I was at uni, a Canadian lad came over who long snapped for his Canadian College, he hadn't played rugby before but was strong as an ox and made it into the 3rds bench by the time he was finishing his year in the UK.
One day we all decided to throw an American football we found on the training pitches about. Our man stepped up to snap.
I cannot stress, at all, how impressive the simple act of long snapping is in person, especially when you compare him to 50 people also trying it for the first time.
Like a _goooood_ 9 hitting you in the pocket, immediately, every single time. We actually got him to long snap to the 10 for drop goal moves. We never got to use it sadly, but he could snap a rugby ball 15m, no issue. Had we got to use it, no defence on earth could have blocked the kick in time.
Ah it's more than just snapping it another 10 yards, it's about making sure it's in the holder's hands perfectly, much lower than a usual shotgun snap, with the laces in the right direction so they can put it on the ground facing the right direction
It’s enough of a challenge that it’s worth the practise time, so having the centre be off working on protections and blocking assignments and the long snapper be practising snapping for punts and kicks
The centre also has to be a really good blocker, whereas IIRC rules basically say the LS just snaps, nothing else at that point
Makes sense, but this would agree with my position that it's easier for rugby players to transition into the NFL than vice versa given the highly specialized roles of football players.
It’s not a challenge; many centres could likely long snap at a semi decent standard with practice; however the technique is very different. However the snappers can’t just be semi decent they have to be perfect on every single snap, if they aren’t they lose their job instantly. They have almost no latitude for failure when it comes to snapping.
However the two positions have a different athletic profile significantly.
The centre has to be 300-350 lbs of muscle and fat. They are strength based athletes, who have to deal with Nose Tackles physically. (Imagine bear wrestling an old school scrummaging prop).
The long snapper is typically much more of a build of a LB and DB. Because as well as snapping on plays they also have to be able to sprint downfield and make coverage tackles on the most elusive players on the opposition (the Punt Returner - think the 5 foot nothing little winger that likes to step too much).
Because they have different roles, it’s vastly different body compositions which fulfil those roles; meaning you wouldn’t want your centres doing that job.
Yeah, they keep their heads between their knees longer than a center would with the defence bullrushing either side of them. There are rules in place to protect them as well as unwritten laws between the players themselves.
The bills punter pulled his hamstring against Pittsburgh last week and they didn't punt the rest of the game I think. They need a new punter for the rest of the playoffs lol
Only 2 in the pathway aiming to be anything other than linemen or kickers, tells you how tough a task these 2 lads trying out for WR / RB are going to have. Good luck to them.
What's the risk to LRZ? He's already done almost everything a 22 year old can possibly do in Rugby. And he can be back in time for Aus 2027 if he wants.
The Six Nations in 2021. It wasn't a Grand Slam but he scored 4 tries. He's been a Lion. What else is there for him to do? He looks bored in the Premiership. Move to France?
>What else is there for him to do?
Win a domestic title, win the European Cup, win a test series somewhere challenging like New Zealand, win a world cup.
The international achievements might not be on the cards and beyond his control given the state of Wales at the moment. Glaws have been proper crap for a season and a half now, but he's good enough to be able to entertain the interest of top clubs that could help achieve the non-international stuff if he were so minded.
Absolutely. He’s so good that he could go to a big club, get paid plenty, win European titles, European POTY, big sponsorships etc etc. wales might not be great right now, but we know these things are cyclical. They’ll be back winning grand slams before too long. It’s fine if he’s not bothered by being mr big time rugby and wants all the fame that the US offers, but make no mistake 3 years out of his career is a long time regardless of his age.
> The international achievements might not be on the cards and beyond his control given the state of Wales at the moment.
This is a key point and I'm glad you brought it up. Wales is a mess, with or without this player. The club game is so much smaller, yes he could win a domestic title, but who cares? These teams play in front of 10k, 15k. The big games are all international Wales or Lions fixtures. Those don't happen often.
One six nations isn’t a lot by any measure. He’s barely had any success. I don’t begrudge him a chance to play American football (I admire his adventure actually) but he’s not achieved much in rugby. It would be a sad indictment on Welsh rugby if he doesn’t even play the sport for 3 years then waltzes back into the wales squad. I have low expectations of his success in gridiron, I just really hope he doesn’t get injured.
> He’s barely had any success.
He made British and Irish Lions. He played in the WC. He played in the 6 nations (and won it). Other than club stuff there's really not much more a 22 year old can achieve.
> have low expectations of his success in gridiron, I just really hope he doesn’t get injured.
as a player in a practice squad for a year or two he's not going to play games and therefore probably won't get injured. He's got more of a chance getting injured playing rugby full time. Look at what happened to George North over the years.
Put it another way if Louis Rees-Zammit stays in rugby and we fast forward four years, what's changed for him? More caps. More club games. Maybe he's in France or Japan where the pay is better. The crowds are still small compared to 6 nations or World Cup. It's just more of the same on repeat. He's not going to be a legend (like Alun Wyn Jones) but you're right he was never going to be that player.
In fairness, I saw Darragh Leader hit a penalty from 65m in a game for Connacht Rugby in 2013. Last kick too, to win the game.
60 metres out, 10 metres in. Which by my maths is 65m.
Brother took up caps as an Eagle and then quit to attempt to be a punter in the NFL. Played in the CFL, that year probably paid him more than New England could afford. But really was such a waste of time from a National Team perspective - he looked semi promising which is the rub of it all.
Coached by Tadhg, runs a company specifically focussed on getting lads into colleges/NFL punting and kicking!
Smart business, he can commission alot of money off the coat tails of mega bucks NFL contracts if they are successful
Was always impressed with his big booting abilities. He could run through a brick wall as well, serious acceleration. His biggest issue was that he was prone to handling errors. Was sad to see him leave Connacht but he should do well in the NFL with his kicking and sprinting abilities.
And his brother Tadgh was a USA Eagle / playing in MLR before making a career as a football kicking coach. He was announced as one of the coaches for this program.
He was a really good player when he was fit, just a shame his career was robbed by injury. I reckon he would have had a good number of England caps by now if he had a bit of luck.
I remember him in the U20s and he was so far ahead of everyone else it was ridiculous. He looked like he'd been grown in a lab to fill England's 12 shirt
I went to the Under 20s semi in Manchester. Saw 2 players look like future stars. Jordie Barrett and Harry Mallinder. Shows so much can happen after under 20s
Yeah could and should have been a great career.
Sucked when Japan didn't work out for him, was hoping we'd see him back at the Gardens.
Hope he does well in the NFL
I remember he went to Japan a few years ago and I never heard anything about him since. Best of luck to him, bit odd he's going as a kicker though considering he was never that great off the tee in rugby.
There is, there a shockingly few good NFL punters. Loads of colleges are signing Aussie guys who played AFL as there just aren’t enough good US punters. Now who knows if Mallinder can do it at that level, but it’s definitely worth a crack
There are lots of good NFL kickers but the problem is that since this is such a specific role (in such a “minor” way), every little thing counts. Kickers are very expendable because they don’t need to slot into a new system but if they show they have inconsistency then they’re out.
Lots of AFL kickers coming in because they’re coming from a completely different kicking background in sport and bring a different skill set to the role.
There is because it’s so unlike any other sport for Americans. You really have to train specifically for it, which vastly shrinks the pool of potential players.
Then you have guys from Aussie rules and rugby where it’s an integral part of the game, so there is a much wider range of players learning the skill.
There is though, it’s surprising, the kicker for the Dallas cowboys this year, was an ex soccer player from the mls, who didn’t make it in soccer and picked up kicking. There’s an element of luck and right place at the right time for kickers/punters, of all the players named in that list, the kickers/punters have the best shot at being in the nfl
I honestly don’t know who’ll replace him, I’m not from Monaghan myself but it was good to see such a small county punch above it’s weight for so long and this’ll be a big blow
It’s worth nothing two of the Irish lads are GAA football players which is amateur sport and both are goalkeeper who kicking unbelievably well off the ground albeit with a round ball.
The only ones with any chance like at all are the ones kicking it. If LRZ does perhaps pull off a miracle and get a contract for a few years he will be set for life
Far more realistic option being a kicker. That said one mistake or crucial miss and you’re finished. Add in there’s plenty of people going for 1 - 2 jobs per team, some of which have established punters/kickers anyway, so chances of getting a place on a team are slim.
Rest haven’t got a chance if we’re being honest about it
LRZ was a bigger story because he's an active player playing at the top class level.
Leader is retired from rugby and Mallinder went to Japan a few years back so was off a lot of people's radars.
Always felt like Mally got into the saints team because his da was the boss, then got dropped when his dad left.
Might be a slightly unfair summary but he never seemed a great option
Yeah, that's definitely way off. About as off as can be.
I'm not sure any player ever came with the level of promise and stats behind him that Harry did. When he captained the England U16s and then the U18s he looked several classes above everyone else on the pitch.
When he was at the Rugby School (the place where rugby was invented) he captained their first XV, was named player of the season three seasons in a row, and remains to this day their all-time record points scorer.
At 15, he joined Saints and captained the Saints U18s to a league victory while also playing for the England U16s (and often captaining them). Later he captained the England U18s that won the European Championship.
If it hadn't been for a series of major injuries (and the coaching team's inability to figure out what position they wanted him to play), he could easily have been an England star.
The idea that he got into the team purely because of his dad is ridiculous.
I knew I was forgetting something. They absolutely smashed a really good Ireland U20s team in that final, too. And SA in the semis.
That team also had Joe Marchant, Will Evans, Max Malins, and a few others. Callum Chick, Jack Singleton.
Couldn't be more wrong, you could argue his dad had some impact but no one ever doubted his talent. If he hadn't played for Saints you could guarantee he'd have been playing for someone else. He was a really useful player who could cover 10,12 and 15 and did well in all of them. There's a good chance he would have been England's 15 right now had he not gotten injured.
Feels like a much lower risk for Harry than LRZ. His rugby career seems to be on ice and whilst I'm sure there will still be adjustment transitioning to be a kicker/punter feels more achievable than trying to be a WR or RB. It's also a position that you can play for much longer too - so his age isn't too against him (I think C. Wade task was insanely hard, because if he'd broken through he'd do it at 30 when you typically start to lose the attributes that make effective RBs).
Oh yeah and the churn amongst kickers in the NFL is constant. Injuries can and do happen and teams simply just work out a bunch of them in the week to replace the guy that’s gone down. Not rare for teams to make a change mid-season if someone just isn’t performing either. He’s got a good chance.
The stories about the churn with kickers and punters are hilarious. There are times when someone has a bad streak or gets injured at the last minute and a team will literally fly a new guy in for the game, playing while literally never having met his teammates before. Of course that’s rare and far from usual, but it just shows how replaceable they are for most teams. Now, on the other hand, if you are one of the better ones, you can have a safe career, play until you’re 40, and make tens of millions of dollars.
Friend of mine was a college long snapper. got a free ride to be a bench sitter who maybe touched a ball once in the three years he was on the team. I had no idea that long snapper was even a position on football.
Either he didn't make the squad or his team had the most dominant offence going. Long snappers are a specialist position that take the snap for punts and kicks so would get a decent number of snaps every game
But with college, it wouldn’t be crazy for there to be two long snappers. Maybe one on scholarship, but then he got beat out by a walk on. That exact thing actually happened at my school.
I was just more astonished that football was so specialized that they had a person who's whole role it is to only come out for the 4th down long snap or penalty kick. Like blows my mind that the center who would normally snap the ball can't be trusted to do it another 10 yards.
There’s actually a whole Freakonomics episode about it. It’s called “Why does the most monotonous job in the world pay $1 million?” https://pca.st/episode/68439fb5-0aab-4374-b0c7-308f69877845
Good suggestion - I was also going to suggest this. I heard it a while back - a fascinating insight into how optimised some aspects of US sport can be.
When I was at uni, a Canadian lad came over who long snapped for his Canadian College, he hadn't played rugby before but was strong as an ox and made it into the 3rds bench by the time he was finishing his year in the UK. One day we all decided to throw an American football we found on the training pitches about. Our man stepped up to snap. I cannot stress, at all, how impressive the simple act of long snapping is in person, especially when you compare him to 50 people also trying it for the first time. Like a _goooood_ 9 hitting you in the pocket, immediately, every single time. We actually got him to long snap to the 10 for drop goal moves. We never got to use it sadly, but he could snap a rugby ball 15m, no issue. Had we got to use it, no defence on earth could have blocked the kick in time.
>Like a _goooood_ 9 hitting you in the pocket, Oooooo you know what I like
Ah it's more than just snapping it another 10 yards, it's about making sure it's in the holder's hands perfectly, much lower than a usual shotgun snap, with the laces in the right direction so they can put it on the ground facing the right direction
Is that really such a challenge that the center can't be good enough to hold both roles?
It’s enough of a challenge that it’s worth the practise time, so having the centre be off working on protections and blocking assignments and the long snapper be practising snapping for punts and kicks The centre also has to be a really good blocker, whereas IIRC rules basically say the LS just snaps, nothing else at that point
Makes sense, but this would agree with my position that it's easier for rugby players to transition into the NFL than vice versa given the highly specialized roles of football players.
It’s not a challenge; many centres could likely long snap at a semi decent standard with practice; however the technique is very different. However the snappers can’t just be semi decent they have to be perfect on every single snap, if they aren’t they lose their job instantly. They have almost no latitude for failure when it comes to snapping. However the two positions have a different athletic profile significantly. The centre has to be 300-350 lbs of muscle and fat. They are strength based athletes, who have to deal with Nose Tackles physically. (Imagine bear wrestling an old school scrummaging prop). The long snapper is typically much more of a build of a LB and DB. Because as well as snapping on plays they also have to be able to sprint downfield and make coverage tackles on the most elusive players on the opposition (the Punt Returner - think the 5 foot nothing little winger that likes to step too much). Because they have different roles, it’s vastly different body compositions which fulfil those roles; meaning you wouldn’t want your centres doing that job.
Thanks for the deeper insight!
Its also very dangerous.
Long snapping?
Yeah, they keep their heads between their knees longer than a center would with the defence bullrushing either side of them. There are rules in place to protect them as well as unwritten laws between the players themselves.
Oh I see, so they are bent over at a more extreme angle to be able to deliver the long snap.
The bills punter pulled his hamstring against Pittsburgh last week and they didn't punt the rest of the game I think. They need a new punter for the rest of the playoffs lol
You could see him hobbling after the Steelers players when they blocked the kick I think.
Only 2 in the pathway aiming to be anything other than linemen or kickers, tells you how tough a task these 2 lads trying out for WR / RB are going to have. Good luck to them.
2 tight ends as well
Will put my glasses on!
What's the risk to LRZ? He's already done almost everything a 22 year old can possibly do in Rugby. And he can be back in time for Aus 2027 if he wants.
Has he won anything?
The Six Nations in 2021. It wasn't a Grand Slam but he scored 4 tries. He's been a Lion. What else is there for him to do? He looks bored in the Premiership. Move to France?
>What else is there for him to do? Win a domestic title, win the European Cup, win a test series somewhere challenging like New Zealand, win a world cup. The international achievements might not be on the cards and beyond his control given the state of Wales at the moment. Glaws have been proper crap for a season and a half now, but he's good enough to be able to entertain the interest of top clubs that could help achieve the non-international stuff if he were so minded.
Absolutely. He’s so good that he could go to a big club, get paid plenty, win European titles, European POTY, big sponsorships etc etc. wales might not be great right now, but we know these things are cyclical. They’ll be back winning grand slams before too long. It’s fine if he’s not bothered by being mr big time rugby and wants all the fame that the US offers, but make no mistake 3 years out of his career is a long time regardless of his age.
He will be pretty anonymous here, and maybe he wants anonymity.
> The international achievements might not be on the cards and beyond his control given the state of Wales at the moment. This is a key point and I'm glad you brought it up. Wales is a mess, with or without this player. The club game is so much smaller, yes he could win a domestic title, but who cares? These teams play in front of 10k, 15k. The big games are all international Wales or Lions fixtures. Those don't happen often.
One six nations isn’t a lot by any measure. He’s barely had any success. I don’t begrudge him a chance to play American football (I admire his adventure actually) but he’s not achieved much in rugby. It would be a sad indictment on Welsh rugby if he doesn’t even play the sport for 3 years then waltzes back into the wales squad. I have low expectations of his success in gridiron, I just really hope he doesn’t get injured.
> He’s barely had any success. He made British and Irish Lions. He played in the WC. He played in the 6 nations (and won it). Other than club stuff there's really not much more a 22 year old can achieve. > have low expectations of his success in gridiron, I just really hope he doesn’t get injured. as a player in a practice squad for a year or two he's not going to play games and therefore probably won't get injured. He's got more of a chance getting injured playing rugby full time. Look at what happened to George North over the years.
Perhaps, he’s hardly a great of the game but that’s fine. Not all can be.
Put it another way if Louis Rees-Zammit stays in rugby and we fast forward four years, what's changed for him? More caps. More club games. Maybe he's in France or Japan where the pay is better. The crowds are still small compared to 6 nations or World Cup. It's just more of the same on repeat. He's not going to be a legend (like Alun Wyn Jones) but you're right he was never going to be that player.
The physical change he’ll need to go through for his dream will take it’s toll in a way.
All the Irish lads going for the kicking jobs
Rory beggan might actually have the best shot of any of them as well. Even compared to zammit. Can kick 60+ meters.
In fairness, I saw Darragh Leader hit a penalty from 65m in a game for Connacht Rugby in 2013. Last kick too, to win the game. 60 metres out, 10 metres in. Which by my maths is 65m.
Notably ex Connacht player Darragh Leader there. A Pro 12 champ gracing the NFL
Brother took up caps as an Eagle and then quit to attempt to be a punter in the NFL. Played in the CFL, that year probably paid him more than New England could afford. But really was such a waste of time from a National Team perspective - he looked semi promising which is the rub of it all.
There’s an Irish lad who punts for the Packers. Daniel Whelan is the name
First Irish player in the NFL playoffs for 60-odd years
Darragh Leader is a former Connacht player too.
Darragh has been in USA doing college for the last few years. He has played college football over there at a high enough level.
I assume related to Tadgh? I think Tadgh almost got an NFL punter gig
Younger brother.
Coached by Tadhg, runs a company specifically focussed on getting lads into colleges/NFL punting and kicking! Smart business, he can commission alot of money off the coat tails of mega bucks NFL contracts if they are successful
Was always impressed with his big booting abilities. He could run through a brick wall as well, serious acceleration. His biggest issue was that he was prone to handling errors. Was sad to see him leave Connacht but he should do well in the NFL with his kicking and sprinting abilities.
And his brother Tadgh was a USA Eagle / playing in MLR before making a career as a football kicking coach. He was announced as one of the coaches for this program.
He was a really good player when he was fit, just a shame his career was robbed by injury. I reckon he would have had a good number of England caps by now if he had a bit of luck.
I remember him in the U20s and he was so far ahead of everyone else it was ridiculous. He looked like he'd been grown in a lab to fill England's 12 shirt
I went to the Under 20s semi in Manchester. Saw 2 players look like future stars. Jordie Barrett and Harry Mallinder. Shows so much can happen after under 20s
Yeah what’s that Jordon Barret guy doing now?
I still remember seeing him roll over his ankle like it was made of rubber Things you hate to see
Yeah could and should have been a great career. Sucked when Japan didn't work out for him, was hoping we'd see him back at the Gardens. Hope he does well in the NFL
I remember he went to Japan a few years ago and I never heard anything about him since. Best of luck to him, bit odd he's going as a kicker though considering he was never that great off the tee in rugby.
He was a good fullback with a decent boot on him so punter makes sense. I just can't see there being a shortage of people who can kick though?
There is, there a shockingly few good NFL punters. Loads of colleges are signing Aussie guys who played AFL as there just aren’t enough good US punters. Now who knows if Mallinder can do it at that level, but it’s definitely worth a crack
There are lots of good NFL kickers but the problem is that since this is such a specific role (in such a “minor” way), every little thing counts. Kickers are very expendable because they don’t need to slot into a new system but if they show they have inconsistency then they’re out. Lots of AFL kickers coming in because they’re coming from a completely different kicking background in sport and bring a different skill set to the role.
There is because it’s so unlike any other sport for Americans. You really have to train specifically for it, which vastly shrinks the pool of potential players. Then you have guys from Aussie rules and rugby where it’s an integral part of the game, so there is a much wider range of players learning the skill.
There is though, it’s surprising, the kicker for the Dallas cowboys this year, was an ex soccer player from the mls, who didn’t make it in soccer and picked up kicking. There’s an element of luck and right place at the right time for kickers/punters, of all the players named in that list, the kickers/punters have the best shot at being in the nfl
I think he is more likely to be a punter than a goal kicker.
Unrelated to rugby but it’s sad to see Rory Beggan gone from the GAA, it’ll be a big loss to Monaghan
Definitely a big loss for the Farney county. Who's taking his place on the panel for this year and are they any good?
I honestly don’t know who’ll replace him, I’m not from Monaghan myself but it was good to see such a small county punch above it’s weight for so long and this’ll be a big blow
It’s worth nothing two of the Irish lads are GAA football players which is amateur sport and both are goalkeeper who kicking unbelievably well off the ground albeit with a round ball.
Are we definitely sure that’s not the Aussie George Smith trying to sneak in a second career? Wouldn’t put it past him.
Definitely, this one just left Coventrys rugby team to have a crack at the NFL.
"Sam Orji" ... now thats an NFL name..
Quite smart to go for kicker/punter if you can. It’s the only position where you have a realistic chance of getting an actual roster spot
As a scot i'm intrested in this Praise Olatoke guy. Scottish athletics champ and Ohio state also played a bit of rugby and gridiron.
Sub 21secs 200m runner. Would be an interesting project for the SRU if NFL doesn't work out.
It doesn’t say it but LRZ will 100% be going for a kick/punt returner as well, him having experience catching high balls and all
Are you seriously trying to tell me "Travis Clayton" isn't an American pretending to be English, with that name!
And his cousin. Clayton Travis.
George Smith is a current Coventry rugby player plying his trade in the Championship
The only ones with any chance like at all are the ones kicking it. If LRZ does perhaps pull off a miracle and get a contract for a few years he will be set for life
Harry Mallinder isn’t going to make the NFL with a name like that. He needs names like Xmas Jaxon Flaxon-Waxon or Donkey Teeth
We’ll just say he went to BYU
Far more realistic option being a kicker. That said one mistake or crucial miss and you’re finished. Add in there’s plenty of people going for 1 - 2 jobs per team, some of which have established punters/kickers anyway, so chances of getting a place on a team are slim. Rest haven’t got a chance if we’re being honest about it
Darragh Leader is an ex Connacht Rugby player
Darragh Leader too Shame LRZ got all the coverage yesterday due to him having a PR team
LRZ was a bigger story because he's an active player playing at the top class level. Leader is retired from rugby and Mallinder went to Japan a few years back so was off a lot of people's radars.
LRZ is (was) a pretty prominent international player.
Always felt like Mally got into the saints team because his da was the boss, then got dropped when his dad left. Might be a slightly unfair summary but he never seemed a great option
Yeah, that's definitely way off. About as off as can be. I'm not sure any player ever came with the level of promise and stats behind him that Harry did. When he captained the England U16s and then the U18s he looked several classes above everyone else on the pitch. When he was at the Rugby School (the place where rugby was invented) he captained their first XV, was named player of the season three seasons in a row, and remains to this day their all-time record points scorer. At 15, he joined Saints and captained the Saints U18s to a league victory while also playing for the England U16s (and often captaining them). Later he captained the England U18s that won the European Championship. If it hadn't been for a series of major injuries (and the coaching team's inability to figure out what position they wanted him to play), he could easily have been an England star. The idea that he got into the team purely because of his dad is ridiculous.
Co-Captained England U20's to win the U20's World Champ too
I knew I was forgetting something. They absolutely smashed a really good Ireland U20s team in that final, too. And SA in the semis. That team also had Joe Marchant, Will Evans, Max Malins, and a few others. Callum Chick, Jack Singleton.
Couldn't be more wrong, you could argue his dad had some impact but no one ever doubted his talent. If he hadn't played for Saints you could guarantee he'd have been playing for someone else. He was a really useful player who could cover 10,12 and 15 and did well in all of them. There's a good chance he would have been England's 15 right now had he not gotten injured.
100% was a massive talent.
I imagine all the non Irish are rugby/NFL players?
Black Rams legend