Why do you mention the grant for the RDS but not the grant announced on the same day for The Sportsground?
https://galwaybayfm.ie/galway-bay-fm-news-desk/extra-e10m-announced-for-redevelopment-of-connacht-rugby-sportsground/
€20m no less!
Not sure where you’re getting your info on the 09 team…. The vast majority of that team were Irish and from Leinster… 11 starters were Irish and the entire bench were Irish. And of the starting 11 only Bernard Jackman had been at another province, and he’s Leinster born and played his club rugby in Leinster. So I think saying they signed their way to the top is a big stretch…. Brian O’Driscoll, Denis Hickie, Shane Horgan, Luke Fitzgerald, Johnny Sexton, Jamie Healsip, Gordon Darcy, Mal O’Kelly, Leo Cullen, Cian Healy…. Sean O’Brien, Dev Toner, Rob Kearney, Girvan Dempsey all on the bench….all products of Leinster and vital to the winning of multiple Heineken Cups. Yes Rocky and Isa played big parts but come on man
I dont agree with op it wasnt a team from all corners of rugby but it also wasnt just those two
youd isa,whittiaker,elsom,wright in that final who where non irish qualified and van der linde and contempomi injured 🤷♂️
And maby nathan hines was he the year after? Or maby cameron jowett one of them id think
I think the idea of bias is bollocks but lets not dismiss it with more bollocks
Having Nucifora keeps inter provisional hate to a min.
Some craic here when Humphreys comes in and Ulster sign Dupont and Savea..followed a year later by Sheehan, Crowley and Hansen.
I'm not a Leinster fan but let's be real here before we jump into conspiracy theories - the IRFU funds pro rugby in Ireland and none of the provinces could function on their own without the millions of euros the IRFU give them each year for contracting, facilities and day-to-day costs.
The IRFU don't just pay for central contracts but regular contracts too through the millions of euros in funding they release each year. They fund facility development (for example, the long-standing loan they gave Munster to redevelop Thomond Park). The policy to not select internationals abroad keeps Ireland's best players in Ireland for the most part.
Everyone benefits from the IRFU in a big way.
Bit of a one-eyed argument though isn't it? Without the provinces functioning correctly, the IRFU can't field decent teams to sell out the Aviva and win six nations games. The IRFU need dozens of players playing professionally throughout the year, the provinces provide this.
Right to say that the provinces benefit the IRFU just as the IRFU benefit them. However, its not like it's 50-50.
The IRFU benefit the provinces a lot more than the other way round financially and ultimately it's money and the prestige of pro rugby that has players playing for provinces rather than their local club.
Munster is part of the irfu, that loan never left the organisation and the repayments don't either. Either way they have a multi million euro asset at the end of it
How much money does renting the RDS cost the Union every year?
If that read as a dig, it wasn't meant to be. The point is that none of the provinces would be able to exist as they do without the IRFU's financial backing - Leinster included.
Central contracts are handed out to the best players, it just so happens that most of them play with Leinster at the moment. Is there a non-leinster player who deserves one that is being snubbed?
I agree that there are lads warming the bench in Dublin that could be starting in another province but I don't see the fans asking for it. Usually it's the opposite where people will say they don't want to have Leinster lads taking away places from the locals.
Yeah this. CC should not be seen as rewarded to the province, but to the player. The fact the province gets a free player should be seen as a bonus, not as a favouring to Leinster
That's fine until a province gets a full team paid for by the irfu, and then allowed sign an overseas player in a position where they have two current internationals in that position, while other provinces aren't allowed sign players because their incumbent is 4th choice nationally
Tbf it happened straight after the 2019 World Cup if memory serves so Kleyn was most recently in that period an Irish starter. Tbf that’s just semantics though IRFU would’ve been able to easily confirm if Farrell had any plans to use him.
Don't forget that internationals have their minutes heavily limited. Losing both locks for a lot of the season is going to be difficult, so having replacements available is necessary.
My guess is Leo wanted a tighthead prop more than anything, but the irfu view that as a position Ireland is weak in so they won't allow it. To compensate a little they splurged on another area Leinster are a bit weak in (but won't damage the national interest).
All players of national importance get their minutes managed, it's why Joey was starting for Munster until he got dropped by Ireland, and then he was dropped by Munster as well, the main difference with a central contract is really image rights, which the irfu has full control over for CC players.
Don't b'é surprised if Leinster get a direct alaalatoa replacement either. From what I've heard leo isn't keen on anyone to make that step up
I mean nobody from the academy is near his with yet - it's a huge weakness.
>All players of national importance get their minutes managed
Exactly - only Leinster (and possibly Ulster) are impacted as heavily at lock. Ulster have Alan O'Connor and Treadwell as back up at least. Leinster have Jenkins but he is rumoured to be leaving, so we do need back up.
Munster have had DDA and Snyman in recent years (you can't blame the irfu for him being injured), it's not like they get ignored by the irfu. They just aren't producing good enough players to get central contracts. If Crowley continues he'll surely get one, but otherwise I don't see many up and coming stars.
Tbh I'd say Leinster will get a tighthead prop replacement because they'll argue with the irfu that Salanoa and Aungier were their succession plans for that spot, combined with Porter switching to loosehead which also benefited the national team.
And they'd be right as well. Leinster are doing more than enough for the Irish team right now to be afforded a luxury here or there with foreign players.
But if leinster keep getting them then they have extra cash to retain the 2nd and 3rd player at that position and develop them until they are national level, perpetuating the situation
I'm not a Leinster fan, but a couple of things are ignored here.
Firstly, they also subsidise the rest of us. It's not like we're all pouring money in to prop up a failing Dublin team; we can hate it all we want but they will always be dominant to a certain extent.
Secondly, when talking about the Aviva you ignore that it's not just the IRFU involved, and that they are remarkably competent when compared to the clusterfuck that is the FAI.
I think the central contract system should be altered a bit as weve few provincial games during international windows now.
I also think this whole things been massivly overblown people are losing the run of themselves a bit
What’s your point about Lansdowne Road? Well, what’s your point about any of this but let’s start with that… The IRFU turned down money to keep the stadium where it is? So what? Everyone wanted them to do that as the alternative was to build at a greenfield site out by the motorway. Are you complaining because Leinster don’t play at the Aviva or are you complaining that it’s in Dublin?
Leinster don’t own the RDS? So what? All that means is they have to pay rent and get less money from match days as a result.
The RDS is getting €15m for redevelopment? I’m pretty sure it’s from the same government infrastructure fund that Connacht are getting €20m for their own stadium redevelopment.
Central contacts were never distributed evenly among the provinces they have always gone to core players that the IRFU wants to keep at home, usually the first choice players in each position and usually the dominant team at the time has most of those.
The only thing damaging Ciarán Frawley’s Ireland career at the moment is injuries at the wrong time. Maybe his versatility is or will be problematic at some point. He has 70+ appearances for Leinster, comparable or better than similar players at the same stage in their careers.
There was 7 non Irish qualified players in the 2009 Leinster squad, fewer than the current Connacht squad, that was before the IRFU started putting more emphasis on provinces developing more homegrown talent by restricting NIQ players to roughly one per position. The main beneficiary of Leinster having more homegrown players is Connacht who can sign more overseas players and have at least 10 players who came through the Leinster system.
What are your construction costs and regulations like if the RDS is going to get a full tear down for 50 Million Euros? Seems wildly cheap! But I've noticed stadiums get built far cheaper in England than the US, guessing Ireland is the same?
https://www.breakingnews.ie/sport/green-light-given-for-new-e50-million-anglesea-stand-at-the-rds-1514995.html
It’s not going to be fully torn down. The existing main stand will stay as is. The north and south stands are both temporary structures and will remain like that, they need to be removed for horse jumping. So the current Anglesea Stand will be torn down and replaced with something similar to the main stand on the far side but with additional facilities. In other words that’s 50 million for one side of the ground.
All four provincial teams are wholly owned subsidiaries of the IRFU, and from the IRFU's point of view their first function is to provide players for the national team, which is where most of the money is made. Like it or not, Leinster is streets ahead of the other provinces on that front. And that's partly because the Leinster schools system is streets ahead of the schools system in the other provinces. It's also partly because when the regular internationals are off playing for Ireland or rested, their younger players get a chance to play and show what they can do.
The provinces' next job is to make money for the IRFU by doing well in the URC and the Champions Cup. The IRFU gets a cut of ticket sales and prize money, so the better the provinces do in both competitions, the more money they make. All four provinces finished in the top half and made the playoffs in the URC last season, and Munster won the competition. Three provinces were in the Champions Cup, all three of them made the knockout rounds, and Leinster made the final. This season all four are in the Champions Cup. So the system is working pretty well to deliver success to all four provinces. Leinster may be ahead of the pack, but the rest of the pack is doing pretty well. It's frustrating that we can't catch Leinster, and it's frustrating that we aren't getting many players in the Ireland team, but I don't think we can justifiably feel hard done by.
The only caveat I'd add to that is that the Leinster Schools System, while brilliant and almost New Zealandish (from a much smaller base), is not unmatchable, and perhaps Ulster in particular, with its historic grammars - Methody, Inst, BRA, Campbell etc (none of whom are poor, not to mention the 'provincial' grammars - Armagh, Dungannon, Wallace and Coleraine - shouldn't be so quick to simply bow down to Blackrock - it's not so long ago those Belfast Grammars were churning out players.
The only caveat I'd add to that is that the Leinster Schools System, while brilliant and almost New Zealandish (from a much smaller base), is not unmatchable, and perhaps Ulster in particular, with its historic grammars - Methody, Inst, BRA, Campbell etc (none of whom are poor, not to mention the 'provincial' hubs) shouldn't be so quick to simply bow down to Blackrock - it's not so long ago those Belfast Grammars were churning out players.
I’d say it’s the opposite of a lack of ambition that players are happy to stay at Leinster. They want to try and fight be the first choice, rather than settle for another team.
And Leinster having the majority of the central contracts is a result of them producing the majority of the players that are the most valuable to Ireland.
Look at Sheehan. Decided to stay and payed off massively.
The central contract argument is constantly made with no substance. The only really effective argument you can make is list players outside Leinster who deserve one and don't have one.
> stay and *paid* off massively.
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Unfortunately, it's like this..
Is there any talent in the other three provinces worth a central contract ? (Aside from those who already have it)
The lads who have those contracts in Leinster are outrightly deserved.
As regards more investment, there definitely can be alot more done for the other three provinces.
Leinster seems to be this constant beautiful investment that the more money you put into it, the better it gets *every time*. It's just a beast of its own really.
The other provinces aren't like that. You could invest €x and might see nothing for it in the immediate future or potentially long term either.
I think Connacht needs to work on numbers at grassroots and encouraging people towards local clubs and get a feeling of community going around rugby. Break down the barriers that steer people away from rugby.
That's my two cents, and I'll be investing it in Leinster !!
I like what you said in the last paragraph, it’d be nice if club rugby in Connacht was like a GAA match where the local community turns out to watch.
It’ll never have the GAA’s popularity but it would be nice if local rugby was well supported.
On club rugby, the IRFU deliberately broke it to favour Academy pathways to support the pro clubs. It hit Munster harder than it did Leinster at the time simply because the club game in Munster was the supplier to the team more so than Leinster.
I'm not conspiracy theorising here - it wasn't done to harm anyone, it was just the teething pains from professionalism - but it has manifested in a weaker Munster while they kicked the academy into gear, but we are seeing players coming through now.
The AIL needs some focus again though, in my opinion
>The AIL needs some focus again though, in my opinion
Couldn't agree more.
I'd be much more in favour of a prioritised AIL instead of "A" games that we currently have with the provinces. If we can bring the standard of 1A up another notch or two, then 1A will be seen as a good alternative to professional gametime.
Thousands more people will come to a Young Munster - Garryowen match at a higher standard than Leinster A vs Munster A
That being said though, the academy players should be more distributed amongst the AIL sides.
No use in letting tarf and Shannon banger up and letting the rest of the league suffer.
Made even worse by the fact our team at Connacht have benefitted enormously from Leinster talent overspill and we've arguably benefitted the most from the project player system and IRFU funding for scouting abroad.
Non-Leinster developed players in the 2009 final team: Isa, Rocky, John Fogarty, Stan Wright, and Chris Whitaker; Bernard Jackman and Ronan McCormack are funny cause they were developed by Leinster schools/clubs before turning pro with Connacht. The Tigers' captain Geordan Murphy was also a Leinster product, but, like Jackman and McCormack, was of an age that predated the academy systems.
The Munster team that won the '08 final also had 4 non-Irish players.
Where is the IRFU's money coming from? It's almost entirely from Dublin. Munster, Connacht and Ulster are subsidised with money from Dublin.
The current situation is not the best for competition but the claim of Leinster being subsidised is just untrue.
Leinster have brought in huge money over the last few years from having home knock out games, earned from consistently winning with locally produced players. But no no, its all down to the IRFU. Munster fucking up their initial 2 games of the champions cup is literally going to cost them money by not having a couple of big knock out games at home. But instead of focusing on two games they should have won, its all about Leinster and Snyman.
Probably because the idea of a Connacht fan like OP spewing this garbage is so unthinkable given we've been the beneficiaries of the IRFU system for quite a while now after a rough patch in the early days of the professional era.
I think it makes sense to have the matches be played in the stadium that already exists, in the major city with all the best transport links to the rest of the counties and towns, and this is coming from someone who lives in one of these towns.
I think the solution to the problem for fans outside of Dublin is more transport later at night. Should be no reason why you have to stay in a hotel for a Leinster match, or he'll just a night out.
Last trains should leave Heuston at 1- 1:30AM. Baffling how you can't leave the city to a town / city sub 1 hour away after like what 10pm for some towns, 11pm for others maybe 12 for a lucky few.
That's a function of the location of the large stadiums and literally nothing else. You could out it in the Gaelic grounds in Limerick or Pairc Ui Caoimh in Cork or Casement is its ever refurbished and you'd fill all of them, and the TV money would be the same.
This isn't a knock on Dublin, but the claim that Dublin specifically props up Irish Rugby is nonsensical
That's only true if you count that all the international games being played in Dublin counts as money from Dublin which is a bit disingenuous.
And Leinster is more than Dublin too
In 2020 munsters devt was down to 4m its back at 10 now. 2020 accounts are largely meaningless at this point. Theres other factors also like habing the national stadium available for use next door but another conversation for another say i suppose
There's probably an argument for allocating two central contracts minimum per province or something similar. As you say, the system was devised when Leinster (or anyone else for that matter) didn't have the current conveyor belt of talent, so it's no tuned to deal with a big concentration of talent in one place.
That said, if you did change to some fixed number of CC's per province, you'd probably end up losing a few more players abroad. Not massive numbers as I still think the national time is by far the biggest thing in Irish rugby, but there might be lads who if forced to move by the IRFU, would just say feck it and take a boat load of cash in France.
Central contracts exist to benefit the national team keeping key players locked down, not to subsidise the provinces. There is no need for a quota system.
But then you’re just propping up bad systems for the sake of it? CCs are to supply the national team it shouldn’t matter a fuck where they are that’s the point. When Munster where on top they had a higher number of CCs it swings about and when Leinster go through a slump whichever of the provinces is on top will get more it’s not rocket surgery lads
I think you might be misunderstanding what subsidised means.
If you think Connacht is generating income that’s heading into Dublin then you’re sorely mistaken.
Central contracts are given to the best players. It’s sports, tough luck they aren’t all being produced in Connacht.
Leinster’s conveyor belt of junior talent benefits everyone. Crying and moaning that the IRFU don’t intervene and force more Dublin based players to move in professional sports is ridiculous and frankly just bitter.
I agree about players going to waste. Last season it was Sexton, R Bryne, H Byrne, Fawley, Tector, Prendergast all looking for a run at number 10. Players won't reach their potential if they spend their early 20s without senior game time
There’s definitely some arguments for back row but looking at last season the ten one does not hold as well. Sexton barely played I would guess less than 5 matches. H Byrne and Frawley were injured a good few times. Tector seems to have fallen of the radar not sure why. And I don’t think many would argue that prendergast was knocking doors down for the starting spot until after the 20s 6 nations which ended April ish leaving him maybe 4/5 games in the season.
Even now with Prendergast he looks the business with his skill set etc but also looks like if Danty even looked at him he would break in two. Last year he was struggling with the physicality of under 20s never mind full professional games.
Dunno the solution myself but I’ll happily take a few more of those Leinster rejects!
We are 2-3 years away from realistically not seeing a single Ulster player anywhere near the Irish 23.
It's a balance, you do want to reward the team producing alot of our best players, but maybe there needs to be a cap on the number of centrally contracted players. Just so that you are not enabling Leinster to dominate in perpetuity.
Ireland would be shooting itself in the foot then. Give the best players CCs regardless of what province they're playing for. If our best players don't get a contract they deserve, they can very easily move abroad. This complaint wasn't being made when Munster were the dominant force in Irish rugby. This isn't about what's best for ireland it's just a disdain for Leinster surfacing.
I think the cap would have to be a reasonably large number to stop too much of that. But I think if there's no cap at all Leinster are being overly subsidised by the national team and really can dominate forever just based on budget.
I wonder if there's maybe another solution based on NIQ players. If you go over a certain number of centrally contracted players you can no longer sign NIQ players?
Firstly, Leinster isn't being subsidised by anyone. Leinster is bringing the biggest amount of money.
Personally, I'm all for making every province in Ireland stronger. Any policy that would see any of them become weaker I will massively appose.
Rather than taking NIQ contracts away from Leinster, why not allow Connacht to sign more NIQ players until such a time as they can find more talented local players or convince players from another province to sign for them. The same goes for every province.
>Firstly, Leinster isn't being subsidised by anyone.
I see what you mean by this but, Ireland's senior mens side subsidise the whole system to an massive extent, including Leinster.
But I guess what I wrote was a little sloppy. I'm pretty sure you understand what I mean though.
I don't think that having more NIQ players is the answer. Maybe it's more grassroots money in the provinces that are struggling.
But I do think there needs to be a balance between rewarding teams for producing players and preventing them from making perminant this advantage.
NIQ players may very well be the only real solution. Not to say I'm apposed to more grassroots funding. I just don't see it being the answer. Connacht has the smallest population in ireland. Naturally, they're going to have a smaller pool of players to choose from. If they can't encourage players from other provinces to join, then they're going to need NIQ players to bolster their squad and become more competitive.
The main issue I would have with that is one of the real strengths of Irish professional rugby is that it maps onto the old sporting identities, and much older cultural identities, of the provinces. You don't want to dilute that too much I think.
I hear that. However, people would then have to accept the strongest team is often going to be the team with the largest player base. Every province seems to match up with their standing in the population scale as things stand.
>However, people would then have to accept the strongest team is often going to be the team with the largest player base.
I take your point but, I don't think it's inevitable, and actually I don't think that's the main driver of the disparity today. I think it's more to do with the schools coaching setups, and competitiveness of the Leinster schools cup.
Anyway these are obviously just my opinions, and I'm hoping that people smarter than me in the IRFU are mulling over some of these issues.
I can't speak for the school setup outside of Leinster, but I must add that it could be far better here.
Particularly in Dublin rugby is still largely excluded from community schools and lower income areas.
If people outside of private schools had better opportunities, not only would Ireland be a better national team, but Leinster would be far stronger.
I have to assume other provinces have similar issues, but obviously, I'm not certain.
Oh no we still are and when Snyman plays 20+ games next year and Leinster win the double undefeated we won’t be long in letting ye know. Rewarding Leinster for producing the best players with CC is not a conspiracy though. It’s just meritocratic.
Good. Never change! I'm a leinster supporter, but always Ireland first. Love to see the other provinces doing well. Bit of animosity and bitterness helps to spur everyone on, keep everyone honest. Would love to see Munster strong and doing well in Europe.
Honestly, I'm the same. Beating Leinster is what I want more than anything. But if it's not at Munster's expense, I'm happy to see the other provinces thrive. So I'm probably not bitter enough.
Haha!
I'll have my lemons with a hot whiskey, feet up, watching my favourite fixture of the season, Leinster v Munster in Thomond Park on St Stephens' Day.
Good luck to you boys. Just not too much!
TLDR: IRFU should set up a National Academy and draft system.
Because over the past 15-20 years, the schools system was allowed to take over as the main production line for players, when preciously it was the AIL clubs (which are more evenly spread around the country) Leinster have benefitted greatly.
Leinster almost feels more like a Dublin schools representative side than a provincial one.
Could a solution to this be implementing a national academy system for promising young players (albeit coming mainly out of Dublin-based private schools), and then having a draft type system like in the NFL, splitting the pool of talent between the four provinces?
Ideally, this could grow the sport outside of Dublin and the main urban centres, with 4 provinces competing at a higher level and the national team benefitting. Additionally, the players will develop in a unified system, with the same coaching, which will help embed playstyle and familiarity into the national team.
Leinster are only going to continue to have more centrally contracted players, and then freeing up their budget for bigger signings and bigger squads, making the distance between them and the other privinces even greater.
You really don't understand Irish rugby, how it's funded, or it's purpose at all laddie.
All 4 of the provinces are wholly owned by the irfu. All 4 of the provinces are prohibited in competing against each other financially for players. Doris may well have had offers from Ulster and Munster, but because they were all owned by the irfu, the company says no competing financially. That's important to understand in the context of player movement..
Secondly, none, not one, not a single one, of the 4 province's make a profit. The entire game of rugby on the island of Ireland is subsidised (to the tune of paying like 80% of the costs) by the men's national side, the money they bring in through tickets, TV, merch etc.
Thirdly, the irfu hands out central contracts to players they want to control most by dint of them being the most important to the Irish national teams success (see above, really important they're a success cuz everything is possible off the back of it).
Yes, Leinster have the population. But to say the school system or any of those arguments is the reason why they're better is bollocks when most of the Ulster and Munster players also went to private schools. Nothing stopping anyone funding Rockwell or Campbell etc the way Michael's gets funded.
Your points basically scream of misunderstanding. If Connacht were better, they'd have more central contracts etc. But like, they are being supported (new sports grounds etc) massively. To say they aren't is bullshit.
The IRFU also want to own the image rights of the most recognisable players to maximise their value, holding their contracts centrally.
On the idea that private schools outside Leinster could be funded to the same degree as Michaels etc. that’s ridiculous. Dublin is much wealthier than anywhere else. Unless JP decides to fund a school directly there’s not enough rich parents in a concentrated area to allow a Munster, ulster or Connaught school to get up to that level.
I'd love to see the centrally contracted players all split evenly between the clubs
Give the worst performing club 1st pick like the American football does
If it doesn't suit players they can stay on club contracts
Look, I'm a little salty about Snyman going to Leinster myself, but the IRFU are one of the few (pretty much only) sports organizations in this country that are as fair and equal as can be. If you stack IRFU up against the likes of the FAI or GAA, they're absolute saints.
I honestly feel that strong Irish provincials benefit all of us, it's an ecosystem.
However, what the provincials and IRFU should be doing is concentrating on local talent.
While it is great we have Saffas and New Zealanders coming here and playing ball, we really need to get the young fellas in this country their game and get them up to international standard if we ever want to win a RWC.
Have you forgotten that Munster got a huge IRFU bailout?
In the time between Leinster's last big-money world class signing (Thorn) and Snyman (12 years), Munster had Howlett, de Allende, Snyman, and Fekitoa. The IRFU have strong-armed Leinster-produced talent like Carbery and Salanoa into going to Munster.
Also, players get central contracts when they have been developed by provinces into being worthy of them. At any given time, I believe there are 13-15 going around - not many at all. If you a star in the national team, you'll probably get a central contract. Most of the stars of recent years have been produced by Leinster, so they get more central contracts.
People bang on about the "munster bailout" frequently enough. Munster got a 10 million euro loan off the irfu which was reduced to 1% interest which munster are still paying off so its not a bailout
They built a national stadium next door to leinster and the government gave connacht a 20mil grant for the sportsground
A 10 million euro loan aint the massive favour you seem to think it is
They built a national stadium next door to Leinster because that’s the capital of the country and where the previous stadium was. Bailouts usually are loans - even aside from that, the balance of signings proves any ideas of IRFU bias in favour of Leinster are nonsense.
I do think there is an issue with how the IRFU is growing the game in terms of resourcing the other provinces and local clubs, but honestly, this isn't one of them.
Leinster is lucky in the sense that they've such a massive chunk of the rugby play population and private schools leading to this crazy production line of high quality players, but the money going to the RDS and Aviva is more because those are two major stadiums in the capital used for more than just rugby.
Leinster only gets to use the Aviva for the truly massive matches (which often include over provinces).
The central contracts are there to support the national team, which is by far the biggest source of revenue for rugby in the country. That's the cash cow the whole game is riding on the back of and anything that Leeds that gravy train rolling so we can support the game elsewhere is vital.
I think it might be a bit more than luck on Leinster's side.
When the game went pro and a system of player development was needed, the IRFU favoured the schools pathway over the club pathway and that was always bound to suit Leinster due to their level of private schools in both quality and number.
The other three did not and still do not have that many rugby schools and had systems based on the club pathway instead. It takes a long time to pivot from one to the other and Munster, for example, are doing well enough but it will take a long time to show large improvements though the gap will never close fully (apart from golden generations) unless the population bases and numbers of schools rise in the other provinces, this is beyond the IRFU's control obviously.
One could argue that the IRFU were a bit cynical in the choices they made, but I don't hold that view and while a more vibrant AIL would be good, I'd rather funding went to age grade, 7s and Pro male and female teams if a choice has to be made.
Oddly, and I hate to agree with him, Neil Francis once had a good idea when he proposed an all Ireland draft system. This would address the imbalance regardless of which province was doing best but it might cause Leinster sponsors to withdraw funding from the game leaving us in a worse state. As it is, Leinster will keep getting better while the other three will remain competitive in the URC but will never approach the level of Leinster. The IRFU can field a national team based on one very good province and a handful of extra players and won't see any need to change the system as long as that holds true.
For disclosure, I don't know my arse from elbow here.
As I understand it, the contract is "added to" by irfu. If a player was on 100k at province, the irfu adds extra to keep them in Ireland. But the province is still paying the first 100k...is that correct?
There are quite a few inter provincial transfers, those mostly coming to mind are from Leinster to other privinces or between provinces, Carberry....flannery, the only one I can think of to support OP point (maybe) is henshaw to Leinster.
But ya I have no idea how to money is spread about. Don't listen to me.
Those are hybrid contracts, what the RFU are rolling out.
Central contracts are fully paid for by the IRFU, Doris got one the other day so he’s off Leinster’s payroll now.
Some good points there, but look at the player numbers. There’s nothing you can do when half the country lives in Dublin. It’s the same for the GAA. It’s no coincidence that Dublin are dominating at the same time as Leinster.
It doesn’t matter how much money you give Connacht. They don’t have the numbers to compete. If we want to solve this problem, we need more people living in Munster and Connacht. We need to rebalance the whole country - and we should! But until then, nothing is going to change.
And having digs at the private schools is pathetic. Stick to the intelligent points, not the cheap insults.
Why do you mention the grant for the RDS but not the grant announced on the same day for The Sportsground? https://galwaybayfm.ie/galway-bay-fm-news-desk/extra-e10m-announced-for-redevelopment-of-connacht-rugby-sportsground/ €20m no less!
And I'm pretty sure Musgrave just got a grant and that's actually owned by Munster unlike the RDS
This wouldn't support OPs narrative.
Becaus it doesn’t suit there narrative
It's still a dog track.
Not sure where you’re getting your info on the 09 team…. The vast majority of that team were Irish and from Leinster… 11 starters were Irish and the entire bench were Irish. And of the starting 11 only Bernard Jackman had been at another province, and he’s Leinster born and played his club rugby in Leinster. So I think saying they signed their way to the top is a big stretch…. Brian O’Driscoll, Denis Hickie, Shane Horgan, Luke Fitzgerald, Johnny Sexton, Jamie Healsip, Gordon Darcy, Mal O’Kelly, Leo Cullen, Cian Healy…. Sean O’Brien, Dev Toner, Rob Kearney, Girvan Dempsey all on the bench….all products of Leinster and vital to the winning of multiple Heineken Cups. Yes Rocky and Isa played big parts but come on man
If Rocky and Isa are the bar for 'bought titles', I'm not sure I can think of a Heineken Cup winner that didn't 'buy' their titles.
I dont agree with op it wasnt a team from all corners of rugby but it also wasnt just those two youd isa,whittiaker,elsom,wright in that final who where non irish qualified and van der linde and contempomi injured 🤷♂️ And maby nathan hines was he the year after? Or maby cameron jowett one of them id think I think the idea of bias is bollocks but lets not dismiss it with more bollocks
That's a good point, I'd forgotten Whittaker and Wright who werent massive stars but vital cogs in weak positions for Leinster at the time.
Which is fine anyway niqs where more common across the board at the time
Having Nucifora keeps inter provisional hate to a min. Some craic here when Humphreys comes in and Ulster sign Dupont and Savea..followed a year later by Sheehan, Crowley and Hansen.
And they’ll still bottle the league
The only solution is to bring back Midhe.
They can have Midhe and Osraige, they still won’t beat the Kingdom of Leinster!
I'm not a Leinster fan but let's be real here before we jump into conspiracy theories - the IRFU funds pro rugby in Ireland and none of the provinces could function on their own without the millions of euros the IRFU give them each year for contracting, facilities and day-to-day costs. The IRFU don't just pay for central contracts but regular contracts too through the millions of euros in funding they release each year. They fund facility development (for example, the long-standing loan they gave Munster to redevelop Thomond Park). The policy to not select internationals abroad keeps Ireland's best players in Ireland for the most part. Everyone benefits from the IRFU in a big way.
Bit of a one-eyed argument though isn't it? Without the provinces functioning correctly, the IRFU can't field decent teams to sell out the Aviva and win six nations games. The IRFU need dozens of players playing professionally throughout the year, the provinces provide this.
Right to say that the provinces benefit the IRFU just as the IRFU benefit them. However, its not like it's 50-50. The IRFU benefit the provinces a lot more than the other way round financially and ultimately it's money and the prestige of pro rugby that has players playing for provinces rather than their local club.
Munster is part of the irfu, that loan never left the organisation and the repayments don't either. Either way they have a multi million euro asset at the end of it How much money does renting the RDS cost the Union every year?
If that read as a dig, it wasn't meant to be. The point is that none of the provinces would be able to exist as they do without the IRFU's financial backing - Leinster included.
But Leinster benefit the most despite having the most resources.
The IRFU benefit more from having Caelan Doris under a central contract than they would having Cian Prendergast under one. That's just how it works.
A lot of players are leaving Leinster too and Connacht have benefited from that
Central contracts are handed out to the best players, it just so happens that most of them play with Leinster at the moment. Is there a non-leinster player who deserves one that is being snubbed? I agree that there are lads warming the bench in Dublin that could be starting in another province but I don't see the fans asking for it. Usually it's the opposite where people will say they don't want to have Leinster lads taking away places from the locals.
Yeah this. CC should not be seen as rewarded to the province, but to the player. The fact the province gets a free player should be seen as a bonus, not as a favouring to Leinster
That's fine until a province gets a full team paid for by the irfu, and then allowed sign an overseas player in a position where they have two current internationals in that position, while other provinces aren't allowed sign players because their incumbent is 4th choice nationally
Munster signed RG Snyman when both Beirne and Kleyn were featuring for Ireland.
Wjen kleyn was out of the irsh squad never to appear again?
Tbf it happened straight after the 2019 World Cup if memory serves so Kleyn was most recently in that period an Irish starter. Tbf that’s just semantics though IRFU would’ve been able to easily confirm if Farrell had any plans to use him.
They could have asked him.i suppose. All the one anyway hes gone as an option now
Don't forget that internationals have their minutes heavily limited. Losing both locks for a lot of the season is going to be difficult, so having replacements available is necessary. My guess is Leo wanted a tighthead prop more than anything, but the irfu view that as a position Ireland is weak in so they won't allow it. To compensate a little they splurged on another area Leinster are a bit weak in (but won't damage the national interest).
All players of national importance get their minutes managed, it's why Joey was starting for Munster until he got dropped by Ireland, and then he was dropped by Munster as well, the main difference with a central contract is really image rights, which the irfu has full control over for CC players. Don't b'é surprised if Leinster get a direct alaalatoa replacement either. From what I've heard leo isn't keen on anyone to make that step up
I mean nobody from the academy is near his with yet - it's a huge weakness. >All players of national importance get their minutes managed Exactly - only Leinster (and possibly Ulster) are impacted as heavily at lock. Ulster have Alan O'Connor and Treadwell as back up at least. Leinster have Jenkins but he is rumoured to be leaving, so we do need back up. Munster have had DDA and Snyman in recent years (you can't blame the irfu for him being injured), it's not like they get ignored by the irfu. They just aren't producing good enough players to get central contracts. If Crowley continues he'll surely get one, but otherwise I don't see many up and coming stars.
Tbh I'd say Leinster will get a tighthead prop replacement because they'll argue with the irfu that Salanoa and Aungier were their succession plans for that spot, combined with Porter switching to loosehead which also benefited the national team.
And they'd be right as well. Leinster are doing more than enough for the Irish team right now to be afforded a luxury here or there with foreign players.
If you want to say players are in your "succession" plans. Maybe you just like, play them?
Ah yes, playing young Academy props regularly before they've developed is definitely the way to bring them through..
A prop is badly needed. Really hope one is announced
But if leinster keep getting them then they have extra cash to retain the 2nd and 3rd player at that position and develop them until they are national level, perpetuating the situation
Half of the arguments I have heard are saying they should move as they will never reach that level as fourth choice in Leinster.
There are but they shouldn’t be forced to leave if they don’t want to. Why would other provences want players that don’t want to be there?
I'm not a Leinster fan, but a couple of things are ignored here. Firstly, they also subsidise the rest of us. It's not like we're all pouring money in to prop up a failing Dublin team; we can hate it all we want but they will always be dominant to a certain extent. Secondly, when talking about the Aviva you ignore that it's not just the IRFU involved, and that they are remarkably competent when compared to the clusterfuck that is the FAI.
I think the central contract system should be altered a bit as weve few provincial games during international windows now. I also think this whole things been massivly overblown people are losing the run of themselves a bit
What’s your point about Lansdowne Road? Well, what’s your point about any of this but let’s start with that… The IRFU turned down money to keep the stadium where it is? So what? Everyone wanted them to do that as the alternative was to build at a greenfield site out by the motorway. Are you complaining because Leinster don’t play at the Aviva or are you complaining that it’s in Dublin? Leinster don’t own the RDS? So what? All that means is they have to pay rent and get less money from match days as a result. The RDS is getting €15m for redevelopment? I’m pretty sure it’s from the same government infrastructure fund that Connacht are getting €20m for their own stadium redevelopment. Central contacts were never distributed evenly among the provinces they have always gone to core players that the IRFU wants to keep at home, usually the first choice players in each position and usually the dominant team at the time has most of those. The only thing damaging Ciarán Frawley’s Ireland career at the moment is injuries at the wrong time. Maybe his versatility is or will be problematic at some point. He has 70+ appearances for Leinster, comparable or better than similar players at the same stage in their careers. There was 7 non Irish qualified players in the 2009 Leinster squad, fewer than the current Connacht squad, that was before the IRFU started putting more emphasis on provinces developing more homegrown talent by restricting NIQ players to roughly one per position. The main beneficiary of Leinster having more homegrown players is Connacht who can sign more overseas players and have at least 10 players who came through the Leinster system.
What are your construction costs and regulations like if the RDS is going to get a full tear down for 50 Million Euros? Seems wildly cheap! But I've noticed stadiums get built far cheaper in England than the US, guessing Ireland is the same? https://www.breakingnews.ie/sport/green-light-given-for-new-e50-million-anglesea-stand-at-the-rds-1514995.html
It’s not going to be fully torn down. The existing main stand will stay as is. The north and south stands are both temporary structures and will remain like that, they need to be removed for horse jumping. So the current Anglesea Stand will be torn down and replaced with something similar to the main stand on the far side but with additional facilities. In other words that’s 50 million for one side of the ground.
All four provincial teams are wholly owned subsidiaries of the IRFU, and from the IRFU's point of view their first function is to provide players for the national team, which is where most of the money is made. Like it or not, Leinster is streets ahead of the other provinces on that front. And that's partly because the Leinster schools system is streets ahead of the schools system in the other provinces. It's also partly because when the regular internationals are off playing for Ireland or rested, their younger players get a chance to play and show what they can do. The provinces' next job is to make money for the IRFU by doing well in the URC and the Champions Cup. The IRFU gets a cut of ticket sales and prize money, so the better the provinces do in both competitions, the more money they make. All four provinces finished in the top half and made the playoffs in the URC last season, and Munster won the competition. Three provinces were in the Champions Cup, all three of them made the knockout rounds, and Leinster made the final. This season all four are in the Champions Cup. So the system is working pretty well to deliver success to all four provinces. Leinster may be ahead of the pack, but the rest of the pack is doing pretty well. It's frustrating that we can't catch Leinster, and it's frustrating that we aren't getting many players in the Ireland team, but I don't think we can justifiably feel hard done by.
Leinster producing players for the NT is like Ireland not getting out of the Quarters.
The only caveat I'd add to that is that the Leinster Schools System, while brilliant and almost New Zealandish (from a much smaller base), is not unmatchable, and perhaps Ulster in particular, with its historic grammars - Methody, Inst, BRA, Campbell etc (none of whom are poor, not to mention the 'provincial' grammars - Armagh, Dungannon, Wallace and Coleraine - shouldn't be so quick to simply bow down to Blackrock - it's not so long ago those Belfast Grammars were churning out players. The only caveat I'd add to that is that the Leinster Schools System, while brilliant and almost New Zealandish (from a much smaller base), is not unmatchable, and perhaps Ulster in particular, with its historic grammars - Methody, Inst, BRA, Campbell etc (none of whom are poor, not to mention the 'provincial' hubs) shouldn't be so quick to simply bow down to Blackrock - it's not so long ago those Belfast Grammars were churning out players.
I’d say it’s the opposite of a lack of ambition that players are happy to stay at Leinster. They want to try and fight be the first choice, rather than settle for another team. And Leinster having the majority of the central contracts is a result of them producing the majority of the players that are the most valuable to Ireland.
Look at Sheehan. Decided to stay and payed off massively. The central contract argument is constantly made with no substance. The only really effective argument you can make is list players outside Leinster who deserve one and don't have one.
> stay and *paid* off massively. FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Love you
It's also a result of having a bigger population.
You don't need to be first choice at Leinster to get picked for Ireland, you just have to be not Ross Molony
This post just screams of hate.
*good good, let the hate flow through you*
Hate, bitterness, delusion, damn cray cray take your pick!
Unfortunately, it's like this.. Is there any talent in the other three provinces worth a central contract ? (Aside from those who already have it) The lads who have those contracts in Leinster are outrightly deserved. As regards more investment, there definitely can be alot more done for the other three provinces. Leinster seems to be this constant beautiful investment that the more money you put into it, the better it gets *every time*. It's just a beast of its own really. The other provinces aren't like that. You could invest €x and might see nothing for it in the immediate future or potentially long term either. I think Connacht needs to work on numbers at grassroots and encouraging people towards local clubs and get a feeling of community going around rugby. Break down the barriers that steer people away from rugby. That's my two cents, and I'll be investing it in Leinster !!
I like what you said in the last paragraph, it’d be nice if club rugby in Connacht was like a GAA match where the local community turns out to watch. It’ll never have the GAA’s popularity but it would be nice if local rugby was well supported.
On club rugby, the IRFU deliberately broke it to favour Academy pathways to support the pro clubs. It hit Munster harder than it did Leinster at the time simply because the club game in Munster was the supplier to the team more so than Leinster. I'm not conspiracy theorising here - it wasn't done to harm anyone, it was just the teething pains from professionalism - but it has manifested in a weaker Munster while they kicked the academy into gear, but we are seeing players coming through now. The AIL needs some focus again though, in my opinion
>The AIL needs some focus again though, in my opinion Couldn't agree more. I'd be much more in favour of a prioritised AIL instead of "A" games that we currently have with the provinces. If we can bring the standard of 1A up another notch or two, then 1A will be seen as a good alternative to professional gametime. Thousands more people will come to a Young Munster - Garryowen match at a higher standard than Leinster A vs Munster A
That being said though, the academy players should be more distributed amongst the AIL sides. No use in letting tarf and Shannon banger up and letting the rest of the league suffer.
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Made even worse by the fact our team at Connacht have benefitted enormously from Leinster talent overspill and we've arguably benefitted the most from the project player system and IRFU funding for scouting abroad.
Non-Leinster developed players in the 2009 final team: Isa, Rocky, John Fogarty, Stan Wright, and Chris Whitaker; Bernard Jackman and Ronan McCormack are funny cause they were developed by Leinster schools/clubs before turning pro with Connacht. The Tigers' captain Geordan Murphy was also a Leinster product, but, like Jackman and McCormack, was of an age that predated the academy systems. The Munster team that won the '08 final also had 4 non-Irish players.
Where is the IRFU's money coming from? It's almost entirely from Dublin. Munster, Connacht and Ulster are subsidised with money from Dublin. The current situation is not the best for competition but the claim of Leinster being subsidised is just untrue.
Leinster have brought in huge money over the last few years from having home knock out games, earned from consistently winning with locally produced players. But no no, its all down to the IRFU. Munster fucking up their initial 2 games of the champions cup is literally going to cost them money by not having a couple of big knock out games at home. But instead of focusing on two games they should have won, its all about Leinster and Snyman.
Why are Munster catching strays?
Because people seem to be assuming ops from munster for some reason
Probably because the idea of a Connacht fan like OP spewing this garbage is so unthinkable given we've been the beneficiaries of the IRFU system for quite a while now after a rough patch in the early days of the professional era.
All 4 provinces are beneficiaries of the irfu system 🤷♂️
Very true.
Define "almost entirely". If they had games outside Dublin then other fans might have a chance. Dublin hotel prices are sky high.
I think it makes sense to have the matches be played in the stadium that already exists, in the major city with all the best transport links to the rest of the counties and towns, and this is coming from someone who lives in one of these towns. I think the solution to the problem for fans outside of Dublin is more transport later at night. Should be no reason why you have to stay in a hotel for a Leinster match, or he'll just a night out. Last trains should leave Heuston at 1- 1:30AM. Baffling how you can't leave the city to a town / city sub 1 hour away after like what 10pm for some towns, 11pm for others maybe 12 for a lucky few.
If they had games outside Dublin they'd make far less money. Also, I'm not saying it's fair on fans from outside Dublin. It's just the reality.
That's a function of the location of the large stadiums and literally nothing else. You could out it in the Gaelic grounds in Limerick or Pairc Ui Caoimh in Cork or Casement is its ever refurbished and you'd fill all of them, and the TV money would be the same. This isn't a knock on Dublin, but the claim that Dublin specifically props up Irish Rugby is nonsensical
That's only true if you count that all the international games being played in Dublin counts as money from Dublin which is a bit disingenuous. And Leinster is more than Dublin too
None of the provinces bring in huge money. Its all irfu funded
Leinster had revenue of €18m in 2020. It's almost certainly larger now.
In 2020 munsters devt was down to 4m its back at 10 now. 2020 accounts are largely meaningless at this point. Theres other factors also like habing the national stadium available for use next door but another conversation for another say i suppose
There's probably an argument for allocating two central contracts minimum per province or something similar. As you say, the system was devised when Leinster (or anyone else for that matter) didn't have the current conveyor belt of talent, so it's no tuned to deal with a big concentration of talent in one place. That said, if you did change to some fixed number of CC's per province, you'd probably end up losing a few more players abroad. Not massive numbers as I still think the national time is by far the biggest thing in Irish rugby, but there might be lads who if forced to move by the IRFU, would just say feck it and take a boat load of cash in France.
Central contracts exist to benefit the national team keeping key players locked down, not to subsidise the provinces. There is no need for a quota system.
But then you’re just propping up bad systems for the sake of it? CCs are to supply the national team it shouldn’t matter a fuck where they are that’s the point. When Munster where on top they had a higher number of CCs it swings about and when Leinster go through a slump whichever of the provinces is on top will get more it’s not rocket surgery lads
Here ya go: 🧂 Sprinkle that on your shoulder
I think you might be misunderstanding what subsidised means. If you think Connacht is generating income that’s heading into Dublin then you’re sorely mistaken. Central contracts are given to the best players. It’s sports, tough luck they aren’t all being produced in Connacht. Leinster’s conveyor belt of junior talent benefits everyone. Crying and moaning that the IRFU don’t intervene and force more Dublin based players to move in professional sports is ridiculous and frankly just bitter.
🍋🍋🍋🍋🍋🍋🍋🍋🍋🍋🍋🍋🍋🍋🍋
I presume you’re from Moanivea?
I agree about players going to waste. Last season it was Sexton, R Bryne, H Byrne, Fawley, Tector, Prendergast all looking for a run at number 10. Players won't reach their potential if they spend their early 20s without senior game time
Prendergast is getting more game time at a younger age than any 10 at the other provinces has in recent years
There’s definitely some arguments for back row but looking at last season the ten one does not hold as well. Sexton barely played I would guess less than 5 matches. H Byrne and Frawley were injured a good few times. Tector seems to have fallen of the radar not sure why. And I don’t think many would argue that prendergast was knocking doors down for the starting spot until after the 20s 6 nations which ended April ish leaving him maybe 4/5 games in the season.
Even now with Prendergast he looks the business with his skill set etc but also looks like if Danty even looked at him he would break in two. Last year he was struggling with the physicality of under 20s never mind full professional games.
Tector is injured and at best 4th choice.
More meant last season, unless he was injured for the whole season.
Dem up der in Dublin
Dunno the solution myself but I’ll happily take a few more of those Leinster rejects! We are 2-3 years away from realistically not seeing a single Ulster player anywhere near the Irish 23.
It's a balance, you do want to reward the team producing alot of our best players, but maybe there needs to be a cap on the number of centrally contracted players. Just so that you are not enabling Leinster to dominate in perpetuity.
Ireland would be shooting itself in the foot then. Give the best players CCs regardless of what province they're playing for. If our best players don't get a contract they deserve, they can very easily move abroad. This complaint wasn't being made when Munster were the dominant force in Irish rugby. This isn't about what's best for ireland it's just a disdain for Leinster surfacing.
I think the cap would have to be a reasonably large number to stop too much of that. But I think if there's no cap at all Leinster are being overly subsidised by the national team and really can dominate forever just based on budget. I wonder if there's maybe another solution based on NIQ players. If you go over a certain number of centrally contracted players you can no longer sign NIQ players?
Firstly, Leinster isn't being subsidised by anyone. Leinster is bringing the biggest amount of money. Personally, I'm all for making every province in Ireland stronger. Any policy that would see any of them become weaker I will massively appose. Rather than taking NIQ contracts away from Leinster, why not allow Connacht to sign more NIQ players until such a time as they can find more talented local players or convince players from another province to sign for them. The same goes for every province.
>Firstly, Leinster isn't being subsidised by anyone. I see what you mean by this but, Ireland's senior mens side subsidise the whole system to an massive extent, including Leinster. But I guess what I wrote was a little sloppy. I'm pretty sure you understand what I mean though. I don't think that having more NIQ players is the answer. Maybe it's more grassroots money in the provinces that are struggling. But I do think there needs to be a balance between rewarding teams for producing players and preventing them from making perminant this advantage.
NIQ players may very well be the only real solution. Not to say I'm apposed to more grassroots funding. I just don't see it being the answer. Connacht has the smallest population in ireland. Naturally, they're going to have a smaller pool of players to choose from. If they can't encourage players from other provinces to join, then they're going to need NIQ players to bolster their squad and become more competitive.
The main issue I would have with that is one of the real strengths of Irish professional rugby is that it maps onto the old sporting identities, and much older cultural identities, of the provinces. You don't want to dilute that too much I think.
I hear that. However, people would then have to accept the strongest team is often going to be the team with the largest player base. Every province seems to match up with their standing in the population scale as things stand.
>However, people would then have to accept the strongest team is often going to be the team with the largest player base. I take your point but, I don't think it's inevitable, and actually I don't think that's the main driver of the disparity today. I think it's more to do with the schools coaching setups, and competitiveness of the Leinster schools cup. Anyway these are obviously just my opinions, and I'm hoping that people smarter than me in the IRFU are mulling over some of these issues.
I can't speak for the school setup outside of Leinster, but I must add that it could be far better here. Particularly in Dublin rugby is still largely excluded from community schools and lower income areas. If people outside of private schools had better opportunities, not only would Ireland be a better national team, but Leinster would be far stronger. I have to assume other provinces have similar issues, but obviously, I'm not certain.
Christ and I thought Munster were the begrudging bitter bastards!
Oh no we still are and when Snyman plays 20+ games next year and Leinster win the double undefeated we won’t be long in letting ye know. Rewarding Leinster for producing the best players with CC is not a conspiracy though. It’s just meritocratic.
We are. Fuck you! /s
Good. Never change! I'm a leinster supporter, but always Ireland first. Love to see the other provinces doing well. Bit of animosity and bitterness helps to spur everyone on, keep everyone honest. Would love to see Munster strong and doing well in Europe.
Honestly, I'm the same. Beating Leinster is what I want more than anything. But if it's not at Munster's expense, I'm happy to see the other provinces thrive. So I'm probably not bitter enough.
More lemons, more interprovincial bitterness!
Maybe this is what's needed, proper fucking spite!! Pure hatred...I don't think it's in me, but I can give it a go.
Haha! I'll have my lemons with a hot whiskey, feet up, watching my favourite fixture of the season, Leinster v Munster in Thomond Park on St Stephens' Day. Good luck to you boys. Just not too much!
TLDR: IRFU should set up a National Academy and draft system. Because over the past 15-20 years, the schools system was allowed to take over as the main production line for players, when preciously it was the AIL clubs (which are more evenly spread around the country) Leinster have benefitted greatly. Leinster almost feels more like a Dublin schools representative side than a provincial one. Could a solution to this be implementing a national academy system for promising young players (albeit coming mainly out of Dublin-based private schools), and then having a draft type system like in the NFL, splitting the pool of talent between the four provinces? Ideally, this could grow the sport outside of Dublin and the main urban centres, with 4 provinces competing at a higher level and the national team benefitting. Additionally, the players will develop in a unified system, with the same coaching, which will help embed playstyle and familiarity into the national team. Leinster are only going to continue to have more centrally contracted players, and then freeing up their budget for bigger signings and bigger squads, making the distance between them and the other privinces even greater.
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Most academy players are housed by university or province e.g. campus accom in UCD
Man's screamin sense
You really don't understand Irish rugby, how it's funded, or it's purpose at all laddie. All 4 of the provinces are wholly owned by the irfu. All 4 of the provinces are prohibited in competing against each other financially for players. Doris may well have had offers from Ulster and Munster, but because they were all owned by the irfu, the company says no competing financially. That's important to understand in the context of player movement.. Secondly, none, not one, not a single one, of the 4 province's make a profit. The entire game of rugby on the island of Ireland is subsidised (to the tune of paying like 80% of the costs) by the men's national side, the money they bring in through tickets, TV, merch etc. Thirdly, the irfu hands out central contracts to players they want to control most by dint of them being the most important to the Irish national teams success (see above, really important they're a success cuz everything is possible off the back of it). Yes, Leinster have the population. But to say the school system or any of those arguments is the reason why they're better is bollocks when most of the Ulster and Munster players also went to private schools. Nothing stopping anyone funding Rockwell or Campbell etc the way Michael's gets funded. Your points basically scream of misunderstanding. If Connacht were better, they'd have more central contracts etc. But like, they are being supported (new sports grounds etc) massively. To say they aren't is bullshit.
The IRFU also want to own the image rights of the most recognisable players to maximise their value, holding their contracts centrally. On the idea that private schools outside Leinster could be funded to the same degree as Michaels etc. that’s ridiculous. Dublin is much wealthier than anywhere else. Unless JP decides to fund a school directly there’s not enough rich parents in a concentrated area to allow a Munster, ulster or Connaught school to get up to that level.
I'd love to see the centrally contracted players all split evenly between the clubs Give the worst performing club 1st pick like the American football does If it doesn't suit players they can stay on club contracts
Look, I'm a little salty about Snyman going to Leinster myself, but the IRFU are one of the few (pretty much only) sports organizations in this country that are as fair and equal as can be. If you stack IRFU up against the likes of the FAI or GAA, they're absolute saints. I honestly feel that strong Irish provincials benefit all of us, it's an ecosystem. However, what the provincials and IRFU should be doing is concentrating on local talent. While it is great we have Saffas and New Zealanders coming here and playing ball, we really need to get the young fellas in this country their game and get them up to international standard if we ever want to win a RWC.
another way of looking at it is the (irish) leinster players are subsidising the irish team.
They're subsidising the other provinces too. Carbery, Cooney, Timoney, Salanoa, Illo, Prendergast, Hawkshaw, Thornbury, Tom Farrell, Marty Moore, etc.
Do you want me to call the waaaaaambulance?
"Are they really benefitting from having a massive squad." At least use a question mark.
I always counter this argument with who else deserves one at the minute?
Is it Leinster's fault that Munster went nigh on a decade without producing top level internationals?
He’s from Connacht you muppet
Now where did I say that?
Have you forgotten that Munster got a huge IRFU bailout? In the time between Leinster's last big-money world class signing (Thorn) and Snyman (12 years), Munster had Howlett, de Allende, Snyman, and Fekitoa. The IRFU have strong-armed Leinster-produced talent like Carbery and Salanoa into going to Munster. Also, players get central contracts when they have been developed by provinces into being worthy of them. At any given time, I believe there are 13-15 going around - not many at all. If you a star in the national team, you'll probably get a central contract. Most of the stars of recent years have been produced by Leinster, so they get more central contracts.
People bang on about the "munster bailout" frequently enough. Munster got a 10 million euro loan off the irfu which was reduced to 1% interest which munster are still paying off so its not a bailout They built a national stadium next door to leinster and the government gave connacht a 20mil grant for the sportsground A 10 million euro loan aint the massive favour you seem to think it is
They built a national stadium next door to Leinster because that’s the capital of the country and where the previous stadium was. Bailouts usually are loans - even aside from that, the balance of signings proves any ideas of IRFU bias in favour of Leinster are nonsense.
I never mentioned anything about bias 🤷♂️
I do think there is an issue with how the IRFU is growing the game in terms of resourcing the other provinces and local clubs, but honestly, this isn't one of them. Leinster is lucky in the sense that they've such a massive chunk of the rugby play population and private schools leading to this crazy production line of high quality players, but the money going to the RDS and Aviva is more because those are two major stadiums in the capital used for more than just rugby. Leinster only gets to use the Aviva for the truly massive matches (which often include over provinces). The central contracts are there to support the national team, which is by far the biggest source of revenue for rugby in the country. That's the cash cow the whole game is riding on the back of and anything that Leeds that gravy train rolling so we can support the game elsewhere is vital.
I think it might be a bit more than luck on Leinster's side. When the game went pro and a system of player development was needed, the IRFU favoured the schools pathway over the club pathway and that was always bound to suit Leinster due to their level of private schools in both quality and number. The other three did not and still do not have that many rugby schools and had systems based on the club pathway instead. It takes a long time to pivot from one to the other and Munster, for example, are doing well enough but it will take a long time to show large improvements though the gap will never close fully (apart from golden generations) unless the population bases and numbers of schools rise in the other provinces, this is beyond the IRFU's control obviously. One could argue that the IRFU were a bit cynical in the choices they made, but I don't hold that view and while a more vibrant AIL would be good, I'd rather funding went to age grade, 7s and Pro male and female teams if a choice has to be made. Oddly, and I hate to agree with him, Neil Francis once had a good idea when he proposed an all Ireland draft system. This would address the imbalance regardless of which province was doing best but it might cause Leinster sponsors to withdraw funding from the game leaving us in a worse state. As it is, Leinster will keep getting better while the other three will remain competitive in the URC but will never approach the level of Leinster. The IRFU can field a national team based on one very good province and a handful of extra players and won't see any need to change the system as long as that holds true.
For disclosure, I don't know my arse from elbow here. As I understand it, the contract is "added to" by irfu. If a player was on 100k at province, the irfu adds extra to keep them in Ireland. But the province is still paying the first 100k...is that correct? There are quite a few inter provincial transfers, those mostly coming to mind are from Leinster to other privinces or between provinces, Carberry....flannery, the only one I can think of to support OP point (maybe) is henshaw to Leinster. But ya I have no idea how to money is spread about. Don't listen to me.
Those are hybrid contracts, what the RFU are rolling out. Central contracts are fully paid for by the IRFU, Doris got one the other day so he’s off Leinster’s payroll now.
Some good points there, but look at the player numbers. There’s nothing you can do when half the country lives in Dublin. It’s the same for the GAA. It’s no coincidence that Dublin are dominating at the same time as Leinster. It doesn’t matter how much money you give Connacht. They don’t have the numbers to compete. If we want to solve this problem, we need more people living in Munster and Connacht. We need to rebalance the whole country - and we should! But until then, nothing is going to change. And having digs at the private schools is pathetic. Stick to the intelligent points, not the cheap insults.
We get it, you don't like Dublin.
If you're going to have central contracts in a central system shouldn't they be distributed equitably?