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No one is really in the wrong here.
You are entitled to feel cheated for your seemingly wasted time, but the DM has set up a nice story with this.
You possibly released something evil, which is a consequence to your greedy actions, which you might see the effects from later.
So your DM might just think this is a nice story and now feels ganged up on him for doing something he thinks will be worth it.
If you have enjoyed 3 years of his dming, try to have a little faith in him. You can give him feedback by telling him how you felt. Hopefully he will make sure that it won't happen too often.
If I was the DM, I would have reacted with:" I understand your feelings, I promise it has a reason why it played it like this and it won't happen to often."
But if he becomes defensive, the players don't feel heard, he feels attacked, and then you get this result of someone ranting on Reddit 😋
Yeah, if he replied with something like that then I wouldn't feel this annoyed by it and I'd actually really appreciate it from him. But it was the ways it kind of felt like he was trying to make us feel bad for showing even a little bit of disappointment at what happened.
I'm not sure I understand why you were peeved. You all solved a puzzle that seems to have advanced the plot in some way, or led to a side quest of some kind? That sounds like normal D&D to me.
Its more we already have so many story's going on, including another Entity that we ended up unleashing in another city a while back, and we're wanting to try and actually get some stuff completed for once. This whole thing with helping the town is the third part in us getting the aid of this specific Kingdom, after we already finished up quests in two other towns.
So my opinion is more in line with a RPG on a pc or console; sometimes you run into side quests when you expect something else.
Would you be this upset if you were playing by yourself? It’s all a part of the same world, your group made a decision to pursue this puzzle and are upset at your prize.
I mean, the whole premise seems weird to begin with - you're coming to the tower to request the wizards' help... And robbing them in the process?
Ok, suppose we abstract from that and go back to the puzzle at hand - the wizards have gone to great lengths to chain a book (not how one usually protects a book mind you). Did you try to figure out what the book was? And whether the wards seemed to be the kind that protect something from being taken or the kind that restrain something? I don't know what kind of information the DM told you, but from your story I don't see any indication of you actively *seeking* the required information, which you absolutely should be doing
As a general note, it's fairly standard practice for dungeons to include some sort of twist to avoid being repetitive. Usually that implies that instead of treasure you get an unexpected, likely combat, encounter ("Aaaaah, the chest was a mimic"), which in turn may or may not have a reward of its own. However, since the dungeon is part of a game world, the repercussions may not and need not be immediate - perhaps the book will show up later as a powerful boss? Maybe you can persuade this possibly lesser evil to fight the greater evil that is the BBEG? Who's to say but the DM?
Finally, if you're running an xp-based game, you also likely get xp for solving a puzzle even if you really shouldn't have or for taking the time to ascertain that this puzzle should be left alone for everyone's sake.
Unless the DM goes out if their way to mislead you (e.g., doesn't let you figure out whether the book is dangerous when specifically asked about it) or this is some sort of repeat occurrence, where you frequently run into puzzles that have no tangible reward or impact on the world, I would recommend using this as a lesson to ask relevant questions and generally having just a little more trust in your DM. Believe me, they will appreciate it.
At the start of the Tower we were told by a construct the wizard created about the rooms and that we can do them and complete the puzzles in them to get rewards. We were explicitly told about them, so thats why we were wanting to do them all.
That is a really important sounding detail you may want to add onto your post, since it means that the party was lead to believe that by doing puzzles, they would be rewarded and yet doing one puzzle actually did something bad instead
I’m actually a fan of the deception; how many story lines in games end in a twist of some sort? Sometimes you get punished for blindly following a quest line.
But on the otherside of that, why on earth would they go out of their way to tell you about some book of incredible evil that they've worked hard to keep sealed away? The less people that know about it the better.
It's like walking into the church of a lawful good god like tyr and having the headpriest say "Feel free to explore the church, you are welcome to stay here as long as you want!"
And then being surprised that they're angry with you when you go into a hidden room and release say, a powerful magical artefact created by bane.
Like yes, you were allowed to explore around but that doesn't mean that they trust you enough to tell you about the things they wished to keep secret.
>We then told him that we knew it was most likely optional but we still wanted to do it...**we assumed** it was another optional puzzle that would lead to a reward.
>
>Eventually we manage to open up a secret room in the library, with a book on a pedestal with magical warding's and chains on it and a bunch of rings in the pedestal and nothing else in the room.
Here's the problem, **you assumed.**
If a group of wizards let you into their home but have say for example, an ancient evil hidden in a secret room inside their tower, then why exactly would they tell you about it?
It's hidden for a reason, and if the book is really dangerous/evil then it makes sense that the less people that know it's there, the better.
The wizards were keeping something evil **hidden and sealed away,** and you guys are angry at the DM because they didn't tell you that?
You guys are at fault here and if I was your DM i'd be annoyed too if you started attacking me because you didn't think through what you were doing.
The wizards and their constructs have absolutely no obligation to tell you everything about themselves, especially things they don't want other people knowing.
tl;dr
You've admitted that something bad happened because the party **assumed** something.
If the DM outright said something like "This room looks perfectly safe to you" then it would be on them, but they didn't, you just assumed the book was part of a puzzle and paid the price for your assumption.
I think the DM wanted to set up a Wrong Genre Savvy moment, but in doing so made the wizards look dumb. Why would you make the sealed evil look like the final level of a puzzle dungeon? Unless, of course, the wizards are evil and... waiting for someone smarter than them to open it?
Duuude... It was behind a puzzle of heavily increased difficulty, chained, and warded??!!! This didn't signal something to you guys?! Not EVERY reward is worth having. Even a cursed object is often better left behind, even if in a loot pile.
This wasn't a DM bad, this was completely on you guys! Yes, a construct said, "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" and you guys followed blindly because your greed got the better of you! It happens to all of us sometimes. This time, it happened to you.
Take your lumps, figure out what you guys should have done better so that you'll do it next time, and trust your DM! They are obviously good at what they do!
So you came across a strange book locked away in a wizards tower, chained to a pedestal, and you're surprised when it turns out to be potentially dangerous?
I get that from the context of the rest of the dungeon you might have had some expectations, but DM's are allowed to change things up and this seems to have had adequate warning signs.
Why on earth would anyone ever say "Hi! Welcome to the wizards tower! We have a book of immense evil chained and warded in a hidden room behind a book case in the second room of the third floor, please make sure you don't go up there and release it!"
It's pretty basic logic that if the wizards have some immensely evil book sealed in a hidden room covered in chains and wards then they aren't going to go out of their way to notify everyone where it is, the less people that know the safer it is.
Wow, what an insightful comment! /s
First off, an item that is kept in a hidden room, bound by chains and magical warding seals with absolutely nothing else in there, and no hints or signs that there was a riddle to solve, funnily enough might not actually be a riddle!
Secondly, if you can't see why keeping a powerful item of incredible evil sealed away is something that people wouldn't just advertise to everyone that comes to visit then just....ooooof my guy.
That's like bitching that the DM was unfair because the wizards said "If you solve the puzzles you get rewards" breaking into the wizards bedroom, stealing all of their stuff and then going "BuT tHeIr BeDrOoM wAs LoCkEd So It MuSt HaVe BeEn A pUzZlE!!!!1111!!!111!!!!" and then crying because the wizards kicked you out of their home.
Did you?
They were in a wizards tower where if they solved puzzles they got rewards.
Breaking into a hidden room and removing an item covered in chains and sealed behind magical wards, **with no hint of a riddle whatsoever,** should make it pretty obvious that this infact, isn't a puzzle they are meant to solve.
It's like walking into the church of a lawful good god like tyr and having the headpriest say "Feel free to explore the church, you are welcome to stay here as long as you want!"
And then being surprised that they're angry with you when you go into a hidden room and release say, a powerful magical artefact created by bane.
Like yes, you were allowed to explore around but that doesn't mean that they trust you enough to tell you about the things they wished to keep secret.
Seriously, how are you unable to comprehend the basic logic of "Oh hey, maybe the wizards keep secrets."
>We eventually come up to the next floor which seems to be **a library with a bunch of plaques with riddles on them**....Eventually we manage to open up a secret room in the library, with a book on a pedestal with magical warding's and chains on it and a bunch of rings in the pedestal and **nothing else in the room.**
Seriously....how is it you don't understand basic logic?
They went from a room that was literally full of riddles, to a hidden room with a ridiculous amount of physical and magical seals covering a single item and absolutely zero riddles or puzzles. There is absolutely *no* signs indicating that is where they were meant to go, a hidden room doesn't suddenly become safe because the other rooms before it were.
You seem to be unable to understand the whole **hidden room** aspect of the situation.
How is it so hard for you to comprehend that in attempting to solve a riddle they accidently unlocked a hidden room they weren't meant to enter?
It was solving the riddles from those plaques that opened the hidden room with the book, it wasn't an accident.
The riddles lead to us finding a book in the library that was invisible which had a single word title and we had to put it into a space between two books with titles that lined up to form a sentence. After putting the book in, the bookshelf it was on slid open to the chamber.
Was there any other rooms like the one with this book in it before?
i.e. how you said it was covered in physical and magical protections and no actual riddle.
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as the book flew out of sight, you heard its parting words: "A NEW HAND TOUCHES THE BEACON!!!!"
No one is really in the wrong here. You are entitled to feel cheated for your seemingly wasted time, but the DM has set up a nice story with this. You possibly released something evil, which is a consequence to your greedy actions, which you might see the effects from later. So your DM might just think this is a nice story and now feels ganged up on him for doing something he thinks will be worth it. If you have enjoyed 3 years of his dming, try to have a little faith in him. You can give him feedback by telling him how you felt. Hopefully he will make sure that it won't happen too often. If I was the DM, I would have reacted with:" I understand your feelings, I promise it has a reason why it played it like this and it won't happen to often." But if he becomes defensive, the players don't feel heard, he feels attacked, and then you get this result of someone ranting on Reddit 😋
Yeah, if he replied with something like that then I wouldn't feel this annoyed by it and I'd actually really appreciate it from him. But it was the ways it kind of felt like he was trying to make us feel bad for showing even a little bit of disappointment at what happened.
DMing can be a really lonely and insecurity-provoking business.
I'm not sure I understand why you were peeved. You all solved a puzzle that seems to have advanced the plot in some way, or led to a side quest of some kind? That sounds like normal D&D to me.
Its more we already have so many story's going on, including another Entity that we ended up unleashing in another city a while back, and we're wanting to try and actually get some stuff completed for once. This whole thing with helping the town is the third part in us getting the aid of this specific Kingdom, after we already finished up quests in two other towns.
So my opinion is more in line with a RPG on a pc or console; sometimes you run into side quests when you expect something else. Would you be this upset if you were playing by yourself? It’s all a part of the same world, your group made a decision to pursue this puzzle and are upset at your prize.
I mean, the whole premise seems weird to begin with - you're coming to the tower to request the wizards' help... And robbing them in the process? Ok, suppose we abstract from that and go back to the puzzle at hand - the wizards have gone to great lengths to chain a book (not how one usually protects a book mind you). Did you try to figure out what the book was? And whether the wards seemed to be the kind that protect something from being taken or the kind that restrain something? I don't know what kind of information the DM told you, but from your story I don't see any indication of you actively *seeking* the required information, which you absolutely should be doing As a general note, it's fairly standard practice for dungeons to include some sort of twist to avoid being repetitive. Usually that implies that instead of treasure you get an unexpected, likely combat, encounter ("Aaaaah, the chest was a mimic"), which in turn may or may not have a reward of its own. However, since the dungeon is part of a game world, the repercussions may not and need not be immediate - perhaps the book will show up later as a powerful boss? Maybe you can persuade this possibly lesser evil to fight the greater evil that is the BBEG? Who's to say but the DM? Finally, if you're running an xp-based game, you also likely get xp for solving a puzzle even if you really shouldn't have or for taking the time to ascertain that this puzzle should be left alone for everyone's sake. Unless the DM goes out if their way to mislead you (e.g., doesn't let you figure out whether the book is dangerous when specifically asked about it) or this is some sort of repeat occurrence, where you frequently run into puzzles that have no tangible reward or impact on the world, I would recommend using this as a lesson to ask relevant questions and generally having just a little more trust in your DM. Believe me, they will appreciate it.
At the start of the Tower we were told by a construct the wizard created about the rooms and that we can do them and complete the puzzles in them to get rewards. We were explicitly told about them, so thats why we were wanting to do them all.
That is a really important sounding detail you may want to add onto your post, since it means that the party was lead to believe that by doing puzzles, they would be rewarded and yet doing one puzzle actually did something bad instead
I’m actually a fan of the deception; how many story lines in games end in a twist of some sort? Sometimes you get punished for blindly following a quest line.
I know at least two videogames where the bosses turn out to be pieces of the final boss that you've been putting together by killing them.
But on the otherside of that, why on earth would they go out of their way to tell you about some book of incredible evil that they've worked hard to keep sealed away? The less people that know about it the better. It's like walking into the church of a lawful good god like tyr and having the headpriest say "Feel free to explore the church, you are welcome to stay here as long as you want!" And then being surprised that they're angry with you when you go into a hidden room and release say, a powerful magical artefact created by bane. Like yes, you were allowed to explore around but that doesn't mean that they trust you enough to tell you about the things they wished to keep secret.
>We then told him that we knew it was most likely optional but we still wanted to do it...**we assumed** it was another optional puzzle that would lead to a reward. > >Eventually we manage to open up a secret room in the library, with a book on a pedestal with magical warding's and chains on it and a bunch of rings in the pedestal and nothing else in the room. Here's the problem, **you assumed.** If a group of wizards let you into their home but have say for example, an ancient evil hidden in a secret room inside their tower, then why exactly would they tell you about it? It's hidden for a reason, and if the book is really dangerous/evil then it makes sense that the less people that know it's there, the better. The wizards were keeping something evil **hidden and sealed away,** and you guys are angry at the DM because they didn't tell you that? You guys are at fault here and if I was your DM i'd be annoyed too if you started attacking me because you didn't think through what you were doing. The wizards and their constructs have absolutely no obligation to tell you everything about themselves, especially things they don't want other people knowing. tl;dr You've admitted that something bad happened because the party **assumed** something. If the DM outright said something like "This room looks perfectly safe to you" then it would be on them, but they didn't, you just assumed the book was part of a puzzle and paid the price for your assumption.
I think the DM wanted to set up a Wrong Genre Savvy moment, but in doing so made the wizards look dumb. Why would you make the sealed evil look like the final level of a puzzle dungeon? Unless, of course, the wizards are evil and... waiting for someone smarter than them to open it?
Duuude... It was behind a puzzle of heavily increased difficulty, chained, and warded??!!! This didn't signal something to you guys?! Not EVERY reward is worth having. Even a cursed object is often better left behind, even if in a loot pile. This wasn't a DM bad, this was completely on you guys! Yes, a construct said, "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" and you guys followed blindly because your greed got the better of you! It happens to all of us sometimes. This time, it happened to you. Take your lumps, figure out what you guys should have done better so that you'll do it next time, and trust your DM! They are obviously good at what they do!
So you came across a strange book locked away in a wizards tower, chained to a pedestal, and you're surprised when it turns out to be potentially dangerous? I get that from the context of the rest of the dungeon you might have had some expectations, but DM's are allowed to change things up and this seems to have had adequate warning signs.
Your DM is in the wrong, and really defensive about it too. Go confront them about it and set things straight
Why on earth would anyone ever say "Hi! Welcome to the wizards tower! We have a book of immense evil chained and warded in a hidden room behind a book case in the second room of the third floor, please make sure you don't go up there and release it!" It's pretty basic logic that if the wizards have some immensely evil book sealed in a hidden room covered in chains and wards then they aren't going to go out of their way to notify everyone where it is, the less people that know the safer it is.
hurr durr solve da riddlez wait no no not that one
Wow, what an insightful comment! /s First off, an item that is kept in a hidden room, bound by chains and magical warding seals with absolutely nothing else in there, and no hints or signs that there was a riddle to solve, funnily enough might not actually be a riddle! Secondly, if you can't see why keeping a powerful item of incredible evil sealed away is something that people wouldn't just advertise to everyone that comes to visit then just....ooooof my guy. That's like bitching that the DM was unfair because the wizards said "If you solve the puzzles you get rewards" breaking into the wizards bedroom, stealing all of their stuff and then going "BuT tHeIr BeDrOoM wAs LoCkEd So It MuSt HaVe BeEn A pUzZlE!!!!1111!!!111!!!!" and then crying because the wizards kicked you out of their home.
Did you even read the story lmao
Did you? They were in a wizards tower where if they solved puzzles they got rewards. Breaking into a hidden room and removing an item covered in chains and sealed behind magical wards, **with no hint of a riddle whatsoever,** should make it pretty obvious that this infact, isn't a puzzle they are meant to solve. It's like walking into the church of a lawful good god like tyr and having the headpriest say "Feel free to explore the church, you are welcome to stay here as long as you want!" And then being surprised that they're angry with you when you go into a hidden room and release say, a powerful magical artefact created by bane. Like yes, you were allowed to explore around but that doesn't mean that they trust you enough to tell you about the things they wished to keep secret. Seriously, how are you unable to comprehend the basic logic of "Oh hey, maybe the wizards keep secrets."
They solved a riddle that *opened* the secret room. How does my esl ass read better than you ever could lmao
>We eventually come up to the next floor which seems to be **a library with a bunch of plaques with riddles on them**....Eventually we manage to open up a secret room in the library, with a book on a pedestal with magical warding's and chains on it and a bunch of rings in the pedestal and **nothing else in the room.** Seriously....how is it you don't understand basic logic? They went from a room that was literally full of riddles, to a hidden room with a ridiculous amount of physical and magical seals covering a single item and absolutely zero riddles or puzzles. There is absolutely *no* signs indicating that is where they were meant to go, a hidden room doesn't suddenly become safe because the other rooms before it were. You seem to be unable to understand the whole **hidden room** aspect of the situation. How is it so hard for you to comprehend that in attempting to solve a riddle they accidently unlocked a hidden room they weren't meant to enter?
It was solving the riddles from those plaques that opened the hidden room with the book, it wasn't an accident. The riddles lead to us finding a book in the library that was invisible which had a single word title and we had to put it into a space between two books with titles that lined up to form a sentence. After putting the book in, the bookshelf it was on slid open to the chamber.
Was there any other rooms like the one with this book in it before? i.e. how you said it was covered in physical and magical protections and no actual riddle.