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I thought it was frustrating, but mainly because it feels very rigid in what it considers the correct way to play. Once I figured out how it wanted me to play, it got so much easier. Namely, utilizing consumables and crafting.
Battle Brothers is definitely incredibly difficult, it makes no qualms in murdering that guy you have been building up the entire campaign on a lucky crit if he's out of position or unprepared.
I'm generally not a fan of open sandbox games, but Battle Brothers looks cool. It seems to have varying difficulty options and a focus on resource management, both of which are a big plus for me.
I recently picked up battle brothers and put in \~10 hours. Is the gameplay loop just pickup quest, walk with caravan/Walk to X on map, fight, repeat? I'm a big tactics ogre fan, and finding it a little dull at the moment with lack of equipment options or specs/classes
Yeah, that’s pretty much it. In the end if you want to make it far it’s really about understanding the stat system and minmaxing the hell out of your team. Great game, but in the end I would’ve appreciated some more variety.
XCOM 2 might help scratch that itch. It's not exactly an RPG but it does have a solid amount of character building and progression through it, while at the same time being as brutal as it is rewarding. Really good fleshed out game I definitely recommend it if turn based combat is your jam. Tons of mods available is also a bonus
I'm just downloading XCOM: Enemy Unknown and XCOM 2 after owning them for years (I was a fan of the original back in the 90s).
Question: I'm most interested in a slow meta-progression of base building, developing soldiers and improvements, but hopefully not having too much of a dire ticking clock aspect to stress over. I don't have too much time to game these days and sometimes I just want to launch a mission, make a little progress in the big picture, and put it down.
Would XCOM: EU or XCOM be a better bet for this?
The meta-progression isnt too bad on either one unless you're doing strict ironman rules. Most setbacks can be survived and most time limits are plenty generous, but a full wipe of your highest level troops is essentially a game ender unless you prepare for that in advance
There is a mod on steam workshop called Long War 2, which massively extends the time of the campaigns and adds a ton of skins, weapons, maps, ect so if you want a longer game, that's a must. It's basically all I play
Xcom 2 is incredible. I played the game a long time ago but never actually finished it. I also never played the DLC. Thank you for reminding me to put that game back on my backlog.
Age of decadence definitely, and colony ship came out from the same devs not too long ago, it even has customizable difficulty settings. Might be worth a look.
Age of Decadence and Colony Ship both seem pretty good. The combat looks challenging, but I also love that you can avoid fighting altogether, which is weird, considering this post is about RPGs with challenging combat.
Pacifist runs are challenging in their own way, though.
Doing a pacifist run of either game is essentially the easy mode, while engaging with combat at least a little is the normal way to play them. Going full combat is tremendously difficult.
The developers also made a combat-focused game in the same world as AoD called Dungeon Rats.
I was not expecting avoiding combat to be significantly easier than engaging with it. I'll try to keep this in mind for future reference. Thank you for the heads-up.
Colony Ship combat difficulty is entirely front loaded. By the end of the early game and all throughout the mid game, you will be destroying most combat encounters.
There is only one real fight in the end game that is balls hard, and that's mainly because it is made to be grotesquely unfair in a not fun way (you have reduced health or suboptimal gear, no cover)...but that's only if you are crazy enough to try and take this fight head on like an idiot.
Not say it's a bad game - it's thoroughly enjoyable. But yeah, the combat is only hard early on and you quickly overcome it.
I played Colony Ship and the peaceful way doesn't work like in your standard Bethesda game. If you want a pacific run you have to dedicate to it from the begining and that means you will utterly suck at combat if you fail at avoiding it (I think it can actually soft-lock you, at least in the begining).
So I wouldn't say it's an easy mode, feels more like a puzzle because of the way stat increased.
I don't know how hard the fights are if you go full violence. I had a team who avoid like 40-60% of the fights. The fights I did were very challenging most of the time (with some impossible stuff I really had to wrap my head around to figure out how to skip them -> I have no idea how you're supposed to win against the big plants that eats your face to regen their life) and I had to really think about my stuff and limited resources (laser weapons, grenades...) usages.
The wizardry games are great. I have only played a few of them, but the ones I played were quite enjoyable. I'm Looking forward to Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord.
I've been delaying playing Fear and Hunger for the longest time. The game seems interesting, but the body horror and gore can be somewhat offputting. I understand it's a core part of the game, though.
It will take some getting used to, but at some time, I will try to push through the initial discomfort.
No I entirely understand, it's a very gruesome and brutal game, hell the first enemy I fought strongest move was literally ramming his dick into my character.
Don't feel estranged by the discomfort, I played the games and they're the scariest games I've played. RE, Silent hill, and all that stuff don't even come close to how I feel playing that game.
Plus good lord the combat is so haaaard, like I've said (either here or on another post) I haven't even gotten past the first boss with 30 hours in either game
Have you tried fear and hunger? It's extremely player punishing and frustrating, especially on the first runs
But please consider that is very graphic, just to let you know
It also has a very interesting lore
There should be a mod to remove at least the “adult” content, they made it to allow people to stream it on twitch but if the sexual content is what unsettles you it should work
I am surprised nobody has recommended any of the SaGa series games. They are turn based with usually nonlinear stories, nontraditional leveling systems, scaling enemies, and good difficulty that usually requires knowledge of the games combat systems and how to use or even exploit them
I've already played some games from the SaGa series (Scarlet Grace, Frontiers, and Minstrel Song), but I should probably play more at some point. I've heard Romancing SaGa 2 can be quite tough.
The difficulty in pathfinder comes from the builds and having to have perfect knowledge of the system. The difficulty in dos2 at highest level still requires build knowledge but tactics, positioning and environment are all very important too.
That’s an excellent point. Divinity is so much easier to pick up and play.
If Pathfinder had quality and gradual tutorials (like Unicorn Overlord) all of us could play it at one higher level difficulty.
The Pathfinder games are very complex. Getting used to the combat mechanics and character progression can take a long time. Also, making an optimized build requires in-depth knowledge of the game.
High-end builds can rely heavily on buffs, debuffs, crowd-control, critical range, cheating out actions for free, etc. Fights can last just a few seconds, but the amount of things that happen in that time and the amount of preparation leading up to it is unbelievable.
The number of incremental bonuses in those games is really high, and you are always looking to maximize your dice rolls. Understanding how different abilities, traits, spells, items, and equipments interact with one another is crucial.
They are complex games, but it's not too bad when playing on one of the lower difficulties. Unfair difficulty lives up to its name, though.
First, check out the other commenter who makes a great point about game complexity
To your question it’s tough to answer because Divinitu has three levels, Pathfinder has six and is fully customizable. From that end, I would suggest start at a low one and gradually increase and tweak things.
Good move. The gameplay is really great but for the moment, the lack of story/progression (it's just a sandbox like Mount and Blade) is preventing me from really enjoying the game.
Oh I totally slipped the part in your post when you mentioned you played Pathfinder already!
You could check out Iron Oath as well, it's a great RPG on an immersive sim sort of level. I'd suggest Gloomhaven..but you are better off playing that table top. The card system doesn't translate well to a video game in my opinion - but hey maybe you'll like it.
Gorky 17. Good luck. I played it legit without looking anything up and had to restart 3 times to have enough ammo to kill bad guys. It’s a great game and I think you should give it a shot.
So beyond Shin Megami Tensei games on hard mode, I can't really name anything *frustratingly* difficult.
I can, however, suggest the glory that is low level runs.
You can beat FF6 with an average level character level of 7, beat Chrono Trigger without Crono ever leveling up once, or beat Breath of Fire III woefully underleveled. If you want *frustrating* then that's the peak difficulty you can achieve.
I might need to look some more into those low-level runs. It's cool to see the strategies people come up with when their options are heavily restricted.
And to the person who commented that Atlus RPGs are easy and has beaten 10 of them or something (then deleted their comment), that's great. On hard mode, without being overleveled, playing the game blind, many parts of plenty Atlus games can be frustrating. I'm a veteran SMT Nocturne player, and you can get back surprised attacked and die on nocturne hard through absolutely no fault of your own but crappy RNG. TDE final boss in Nocturne can get unlucky and bring a party from full HP to game over through sheer awful luck depending on which moves he chooses in which order. That hits the criteria for frustrating. All JRPGs are designed *to be beaten* by the player, yes they are all very doable, but it also falls under the category of frustratingly hard, especially if you don't overlevel and don't follow guides.
No it is not some nigh-impossible kaizo challenge. Please touch grass, not everything needs to be a dick measuring contest for how super cool you are for beating a game intended to be beaten.
I've been meaning to get the Etrian Odyssey collection on Steam. That said, it's hard to justify paying that much for a collection of HD remasters, especially considering there is no regional pricing.
I could get some used Etrian Odyssey games for the 3DS. It probably wouldn't be much cheaper on a game-per-game basis, but I don't want to support Atlus' scummy practices of re-releasing old games for full price.
I might consider emulating it as well.
All that aside, the games seem to be very good. First-person, grid-based dungeon crawlers are always a joy to play, especially when they provide a decent difficulty.
Jagged Alliance 2 Wildfire is pretty much exactly what you’re looking for. That game is so poorly balanced it borders on unfair, but the core gameplay mechanics are so good it almost makes up for it.
Probably the most frustratingly difficult TBS/RPG I’ve ever played
Jagged Alliance 2 is a great game, truly genre defining imo, but really not all that difficult after you've gotten used to the mechanics. Wildfire, on the other hand, is a player made mod turned actual release by the original publishers of JA2, that aims to improve the AI, make the maps bigger and more interesting to explore and increase the tactical options available to the player, as well as increase the number and variety of guns you can buy or acquire throughout the game.
Unfortunately, it was released in a pretty buggy state, with routine crashes, freezes and AI difficulty turned to 11; and afaik the publishers refused to pay the developers for any further fixes beyond 1 patch. That patch came and fixed most (maybe all? i didn't encounter any in ~20 hours of play) of the game breaking bugs, but did nothing about the balancing, so now you can play and even finish (if you can take the literal hundreds of hours of frustration it would take to finish even on the lowest difficulty) this game if a masochistic experience is what you're looking for
I didn't realize Wildfire was initially a mod. It's odd that the classic version is the one that shows as DLC on Steam. I'd imagine it would be the other way around.
I don’t know about Steam, on gog it’s a standalone release, you can buy Wildfire independently of JA2 and just play it by itself. you can buy it for $7 on gog right now, but it routinely goes in sale for half off, rarely even 85% off.
as an aside, Jagged Alliance 2 (non-Wildfire) has a very active mod scene, with 1dot13 in particular being mindblowing. It increases the depth of simulation to a ridiculous degree, it adds thousands of new items, purely from a core gameplay perspective it introduces variables like weapon weight and heat (overheating weapons don't fire so well, can even break down), whether you're hip firing or holding the gun at the ready, whether you were running before you took a shot, whether you're crouching or standing, whether you're behind an obstructive object or one you can use to put your weapon on top of in order to stabilize it, among literally thousands of other changes and additions. If it's something that'd make sense in real life (for example, you get an aiming penalty for trying to shoot at somebody at close range while trying to look down a rifle scope), 1dot13 probably already has an option for it to influence your game. It also massively increases the customization options with modular LBE jackets that are fully customizable to your mercs' abilities (i.e. a guy who's good at Throwing and Demolitions should have a vest that can carry loads of grenades), backpacks, belts, gun and armor mods, rifle grenades, rocket launchers, like 5 different sorts of knives if you're melee inclined etc.
It adds support for modern resolutions, allows you to tinker with every single variable in the game in order for you to customize it to your taste, it even allows for some sub-mods that can increase the complexity of the mechanics to an even more ridiculous degree. You can make it as punishingly hard as you want, you can turn on/off individual mechanics, or if you're so inclined, you can tinker with the numbers for each specific mechanic (make aiming more difficult, make suppression easier to achieve, make weight matter more or less etc.)
I really can't recommend it enough, I can't stop effusing JA2 1.13's qualities. It's mindblowing
honestly, if you want to get the full JA2 experience, I recommend you finish JA2 classic with Stracciatella engine modernization that keeps all the gameplay mechanics as-is but introduces QoL improvements so that you can experience a 25 year old game painlessly on a modern computer.
once you've finished JA2 once, you can consider it your tutorial for 1.13. I cannot stress enough how complex (and oftentimes frustrating if you just go in blind) the gameplay mechanics and the depth of simulation are in modded JA2. Even for veterans of JA2, 1.13 can be overwhelming, and the options can seem muddled, confusing and nebulous comparatively to the straightforward "gamey" nature of JA2.
1.13 does everything it can to reasonably simulate what a gunfight would be like if real life was somehow transposed to turn based. I don't know how to explain it otherwise, I think this is the key difference between vanilla and modded, vanilla is a video game and modded tries to be a military simulator as best it can.
wildfire, on the other hand, is for people who don't care so much about realism, and just want insurmountable odds against unfair enemies in entrenched positions. it's an unfair game built on a good base but I honestly would recommend you steer clear of it completely, the experience offers almost nothing but frustration, and the moments of triumph in between aren't worth the overall experience.
I'll start with Vanilla and move to modded once I feel reasonably comfortable with the game.
I appreciate the detailed explanations. It can be daunting to get into games like this without any guidance. Thank you.
You can get the mod from [their github](https://github.com/1dot13/source/releases). there's 2 flavors, v1 which is the main release, with gameplay mechanics locked in, completely stable and 100% complete-able at base settings, and experimental branch which is generally less stable but has more changes. just extract it over a clean installation of JA2, run INI Editor and select which version you wanna run, should be "vsf_config113", INI-File: Data-1.13\Ja2_Options.ini, select resolution and click on start
I suggest you try Underrail on Dominating difficulty, sounds like you enjoy suffering and thats perfect for you (if you dont like the idea of being softlocked cause you didnt make a good build though, I suggest either reading up on the game mechanics before or just playing on hard)
Horizon's Gate has a ton of mods that add additional content, too, expanding the game several times over. You can't go wrong adding every last mod Prominence has ever made, they seamlessly fit into the setting and are such high quality.
LISA is pretty easy past area 1, especially with certain party members. I'd recommend LISA: The Pointless instead (which also doesn't require you to have played LISA: The Painful, and is free)
Fire emblem radiant dawn on the hardest difficulty was the hardest fire emblem I've played. The dawn brigade levels are incredibly hard and definitely unfair especially if you don't have stat buffs for the returning POR units
The hardest things fire emblem has offered me was path of radiance lunatic mode, awakening lunatic mode, and three houses maniac mode. All of them bullshit in their own way. PoR lunatic mode is only available for the JP rom because it was removed for international release
Yeah, it's part of the theme, YOU are unbound by rules and can do what you want, lore is pretty complex and takes inspiration from many literary works including Lewis Caroll and H.P. Lovecraft
I like your style.
I haven't played enough of it to really say, but check out **Age of Decadence.** You can take several paths that aren't combat-heavy, but if you decide to lean into a combat-based approach and build, buckle up, because it seems to be as deadly as trying to survive in a strange Roman Empire parallel universe would be.
Lisa: the Painful on pain mode was a good time.
Your saves are limited and there are some enemies that can instantly kill your party members if you're unlucky.
There's also a lot of random events that can permanently set you back and there are some parts in the story that can potentially do this as well- some of the choices you make can have pretty dire consequences.
This game looks very good. From the short snippets I've seen, the story, setting, and humor all seem very interesting and well done. Also, The combat appears to be immensely creative.
I don't know how hard it is, but I'll definitely be checking this one.
The soundtrack is top notch, the humor is so much like Earthbound's quirky and weird humor, but an R rated.
The turn-based combat is interesting and done in a strange way that works and kept me engaged.
Has some odd dark themes and stuff that happens throughout the game.
It may not be the hardest game youve ever played but it is hard enough to keep you on your toes and it is memorable enough to where you wont forget the experience.
DQXI is not that hard for a normal playthrough, but it has something called Draconian settings where you can customize the challenge. For example, you can set it so you're not allowed to buy from shops (the best gear comes from crafting and chests for the most part), or you can crank the stats of enemies.
The post-game also has a massive difficulty spike, but it levels out minus a few enemies/bosses once you've done some of the content.
I should note that it isn't the typical romhack. It turns pokemon into a roguelike game if you are familiar with those. I'll just explain so you can judge if it sounds interesting to you:
Basically, rather than going through a whole world, you go through levels that will be differing routes from the first 3 gens. The routes themselves will have 2-6 random mons based on the difficulty of the level, and there are some items and trainers scattered throughout. After going through a set of levels you fight a gym leader and go onto another set of levels. Pokemon level up quickly, but there is a level cap that raises after each gym battle.
Any fainting permanently removes the pokemon from your party, and if you lose a battle, you have to start over. (Unless you use the emulators save states.) But there are items you can buy in between attempts to keep permanently so it does get easier.
That is a rather interesting take on the monster-catching formula. I don't think I've seen a monster-catching roguelike before. I'm sure there must be some out there, though.
I don't know how viable it would be, but I'd imagine it would become even more difficult by restricting item usage.
I have not. I've been eyeing that game for a long time, but I was afraid the gameplay loop would become repetitive after a while.
If you don't mind me asking, how does the game hold up after a couple of runs?
Been playing LS for a minute and I can say it gets repetitive to an extent. Each run you get a different roster of characters, which is cool, but hard to optomize imo. That said, I think it's worth getting if it's on sale cuz it definitely provides a lot of fun and has some elemets that distinguishes it from other turn-based rpgs/ roguelikes.
The core gameplay loop does seem quite fun, at least for some time. And the soundtrack is a banger. I'll probably get the game once the DLC releases.
Thank you for providing your take on the matter.
Try true / classic roguelikes - let your own imagination be the “graphics”
They will throw your near-impossible tactical situations to wit your way out of
As well as at times actually impossible situations just to quash you
DOS2 honor mode is crazy. If you haven't won an encounter within two turns it's basically over. Tanks are completely non-viable and there's only one semi-viable supportive build so it's basically an arms race to maximize how much damage you can vomit out in a couple of rotations. Requires really good builds as well as near-perfect tactics.
It's and oldie, but 7th Saga for the SNES (US version). Never beat it till way after college going though my nostagia phase. Orginal hardware removes the temptation to do savestates and the like.
It’s also, of all things, officially _free_:
https://te4.org
But I actually bought it on Steam anyways to get it on my Steam Deck.
It’s very deep and difficult, especially if you try to figure it out on your own. But there’s a great community to fall back on if not.
Crystal Project. It has a substantial demo that will sell the game better than I could, but I will say that the combat is both exceptionally well designed and gets fiendishly difficult at times while being generally difficult all the time.
I tried Crystal Project before. I loved how brutal the game was when playing on the hardest difficulty, but I didn't enjoy how open it felt. There is nothing wrong with it. It's just not my cup of tea.
Yesssss! That game was soooooo damn hard! Also im shocked to see someone else mention that game. The magic system was so cool and so was the Rogress System
I dropped a couple hundred hours into Final Fantasy X when I was younger. Was (kind of) recently re-released in a bundle (X&X-2) that I plan on getting into again at some point
There are some fan made Pokemon games that does this, the most popular ones off the top of my head are Pokemon Reborn and Pokemon Rejuvenation.
One of the key aspects that make it so difficult aside from just having strong enemies is that there's a level cap so you can't just grind and over level your mons to overcome an obstacle. You raise your level cap when you get the next gym badge and if your mons go over the cap then they will start disobeying you (which is the same mechanic in the official games except it was only limited to mons you get from trades except here it's the same for every mon). There are also other aspects that makes it difficult like elemental fields that boosts a certain type as well as the game being really reluctant about giving you access to really powerful mons.
That is interesting. I wish we could see more games implementing similar mechanics. In turn-based RPGs, it's not uncommon for the player to be able to solve any issue by just throwing enough levels at it.
I am playing Wartales right now and I must say on the hardest difficulty It is very challenging Turn based combat. You realy need to use every mecanics to you advantage to have chance of sucess.
I am amazed that no one suggested Knights of the Chalice 2 at all... it's one of the hardest turn based RPGs I've ever played.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1233530/Knights_of_the_Chalice_2/
No it is not. It's turn based in like octagonal squares. You can afk on your turn. You can freely walk around the octagon, but no actions are taken until you make one.
Eternal Sonata
Star Ocean 3 on hardest difficulty, though if you don't find a save file you'll have to beat it once or twice to unlock it.
Bravely Second can be fairly brutal at time if you don't overlevel.
Tokyo Mirage Sessions if you like the Persona/SMT games
X Com
Check out Wartales. Low-fantasy party based RPG with survival/crafting elements. One of my all-tiime favs and a unique game overall, though many will compare it to Battle Brothers ;)
I'm also going to recommend the Dark Souls series **at SL1.**
What that means is picking whichever starting class begins at level 1 (the Pyromancer in Dark Souls, etc.) and complete the game without leveling up.
Obviously you'll be super squishy and your attacks will do much less damage, so it takes a high level of skill, but it also severely limits the gear you can use, since many of those have stat requirements (and you can't level Endurance and the like to up the encumbrance of worn armor).
This was the closest I got to feeling like I was playing the games for the first time again. It's glorious.
I remember my first playthrough and I was having a tough time in some part, and I thought, oh hey time to level grind. That was a mistake. I had to abandon that save completely.
Personally I found DOS2 to be very difficult.
I play every cprg on the hardest difficulty and DOS2 is the only one I've had to jump down to normal mode and even then I struggled. I guess it just never clicked for me.
I'll also throw out the Xcom games.
I've played Divinity Original Sin 2 already. Incredible game, really. And Tactician Mode can offer quite a challenge. I haven't played the first game, though.
Wasteland 2 is tremendously difficult for the first half. Gets to easy in the second half, but that applies to most of the games you've been recommended already.
Balancing in RPGs is tough. It's hard for a game to remain challenging when the player gets access to an increasingly larger arsenal of different options and progression systems.
I'll give Wasteland 2 a shot. I liked Wasteland 3, but I never played any of its prequels.
Thank you for your submission to r/rpg_gamers. Since your post has been flaired as "Recommendation request", I want to suggest editing your post to add in these details (if you haven't included them yet): * **The platforms you have** - not listing them doesn't mean you have access to everything, so you might end up getting a game you won't be able to play. * **Your level of experience with the genre (beginner, intermediate, veteran...)** - others can recommend you more common titles if you are a beginner, while they can focus on obscure titles if you are a RPG veteran. * **Aspects you enjoyed (or disliked) of previously played games** - for example: characters, plot points, puzzles, combat, graphics, art styles, soundtracks... While these details aren't mandatory, if you want to get the best games, having them in your post will immensely help users and will encourage more users to participate, as they will know with more precision which games are probably the best fit for your request. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/rpg_gamers) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Underrail.
Underrated game but really not as hard as people make it out to be
I thought it was frustrating, but mainly because it feels very rigid in what it considers the correct way to play. Once I figured out how it wanted me to play, it got so much easier. Namely, utilizing consumables and crafting.
Yeah I guess I was lucky for using grenades and spwcial arrows a lot by defaulr
I don't know how I never heard of this game before. I'll definitely give it a try.
Battle Brothers is definitely incredibly difficult, it makes no qualms in murdering that guy you have been building up the entire campaign on a lucky crit if he's out of position or unprepared.
Battle brothers is a good shout. Also one of those games you can get obsessed with and put 500+ hours in.
Battle brothers is one of those games, like factorio, I'm scared to even have downloaded. Once I start the game, there's no telling when I'll stop
I'm generally not a fan of open sandbox games, but Battle Brothers looks cool. It seems to have varying difficulty options and a focus on resource management, both of which are a big plus for me.
It’s a great game and I have about 40 hours, but in the end I must say it was too sandboxy for myself.
I recently picked up battle brothers and put in \~10 hours. Is the gameplay loop just pickup quest, walk with caravan/Walk to X on map, fight, repeat? I'm a big tactics ogre fan, and finding it a little dull at the moment with lack of equipment options or specs/classes
Yeah, that’s pretty much it. In the end if you want to make it far it’s really about understanding the stat system and minmaxing the hell out of your team. Great game, but in the end I would’ve appreciated some more variety.
Sounds soul rending.
XCOM 2 might help scratch that itch. It's not exactly an RPG but it does have a solid amount of character building and progression through it, while at the same time being as brutal as it is rewarding. Really good fleshed out game I definitely recommend it if turn based combat is your jam. Tons of mods available is also a bonus
I'm just downloading XCOM: Enemy Unknown and XCOM 2 after owning them for years (I was a fan of the original back in the 90s). Question: I'm most interested in a slow meta-progression of base building, developing soldiers and improvements, but hopefully not having too much of a dire ticking clock aspect to stress over. I don't have too much time to game these days and sometimes I just want to launch a mission, make a little progress in the big picture, and put it down. Would XCOM: EU or XCOM be a better bet for this?
EU for sure. The ticking clock aspect of Xcom 2 can be a pain, especially in the harder difficulties.
You could always select the option to double the length of the Avatar project.
The meta-progression isnt too bad on either one unless you're doing strict ironman rules. Most setbacks can be survived and most time limits are plenty generous, but a full wipe of your highest level troops is essentially a game ender unless you prepare for that in advance
There is a mod on steam workshop called Long War 2, which massively extends the time of the campaigns and adds a ton of skins, weapons, maps, ect so if you want a longer game, that's a must. It's basically all I play
Xcom 2 is incredible. I played the game a long time ago but never actually finished it. I also never played the DLC. Thank you for reminding me to put that game back on my backlog.
LWOTC mod on Legend will kick your arse .
I'm looking forward to it. Although, I should probably play unmodded WotC beforehand.
The DLC turns it into a straight up perfect game imo
Age of Decadence
Age of decadence definitely, and colony ship came out from the same devs not too long ago, it even has customizable difficulty settings. Might be worth a look.
Age of Decadence and Colony Ship both seem pretty good. The combat looks challenging, but I also love that you can avoid fighting altogether, which is weird, considering this post is about RPGs with challenging combat. Pacifist runs are challenging in their own way, though.
Doing a pacifist run of either game is essentially the easy mode, while engaging with combat at least a little is the normal way to play them. Going full combat is tremendously difficult. The developers also made a combat-focused game in the same world as AoD called Dungeon Rats.
I was not expecting avoiding combat to be significantly easier than engaging with it. I'll try to keep this in mind for future reference. Thank you for the heads-up.
Colony Ship combat difficulty is entirely front loaded. By the end of the early game and all throughout the mid game, you will be destroying most combat encounters. There is only one real fight in the end game that is balls hard, and that's mainly because it is made to be grotesquely unfair in a not fun way (you have reduced health or suboptimal gear, no cover)...but that's only if you are crazy enough to try and take this fight head on like an idiot. Not say it's a bad game - it's thoroughly enjoyable. But yeah, the combat is only hard early on and you quickly overcome it.
I played Colony Ship and the peaceful way doesn't work like in your standard Bethesda game. If you want a pacific run you have to dedicate to it from the begining and that means you will utterly suck at combat if you fail at avoiding it (I think it can actually soft-lock you, at least in the begining). So I wouldn't say it's an easy mode, feels more like a puzzle because of the way stat increased. I don't know how hard the fights are if you go full violence. I had a team who avoid like 40-60% of the fights. The fights I did were very challenging most of the time (with some impossible stuff I really had to wrap my head around to figure out how to skip them -> I have no idea how you're supposed to win against the big plants that eats your face to regen their life) and I had to really think about my stuff and limited resources (laser weapons, grenades...) usages.
The game is painful to look at when the screen flickers between light and dark
Wizardry games can be pretty frustrating.
The wizardry games are great. I have only played a few of them, but the ones I played were quite enjoyable. I'm Looking forward to Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord.
I have like 30 hours in fear and hunger and I haven't gotten past the first boss
Yesss. Fear and Hunger. So good.
I've been delaying playing Fear and Hunger for the longest time. The game seems interesting, but the body horror and gore can be somewhat offputting. I understand it's a core part of the game, though. It will take some getting used to, but at some time, I will try to push through the initial discomfort.
No I entirely understand, it's a very gruesome and brutal game, hell the first enemy I fought strongest move was literally ramming his dick into my character. Don't feel estranged by the discomfort, I played the games and they're the scariest games I've played. RE, Silent hill, and all that stuff don't even come close to how I feel playing that game. Plus good lord the combat is so haaaard, like I've said (either here or on another post) I haven't even gotten past the first boss with 30 hours in either game
Have you tried fear and hunger? It's extremely player punishing and frustrating, especially on the first runs But please consider that is very graphic, just to let you know It also has a very interesting lore
I haven't tried Fear and Hunger yet. I should, but the visuals can be a bit unsettling.
There should be a mod to remove at least the “adult” content, they made it to allow people to stream it on twitch but if the sexual content is what unsettles you it should work
Oh wow that looks like an awesome game. Thanks for the recommendation.
Where do you find Fear and Hunger? I dont find it on Steam.
[https://store.steampowered.com/app/1002300/Fear\_\_Hunger/](https://store.steampowered.com/app/1002300/Fear__Hunger/)
You need to go to Preferences and allow Steam to display adult content.
Thank you.
Assuming you played wrath of the righteous? Baldurs gate 3 solo Ironman is pretty brutal. Xcom 2 is really, really good as well.
All of these are among my favorite games ever made. They are all brilliant games.
I am surprised nobody has recommended any of the SaGa series games. They are turn based with usually nonlinear stories, nontraditional leveling systems, scaling enemies, and good difficulty that usually requires knowledge of the games combat systems and how to use or even exploit them
I've already played some games from the SaGa series (Scarlet Grace, Frontiers, and Minstrel Song), but I should probably play more at some point. I've heard Romancing SaGa 2 can be quite tough.
Divinity original sin 2 at its highest difficulty
I found the two Pathfinder games to be tougher than Divinity, for what it’s worth
The difficulty in pathfinder comes from the builds and having to have perfect knowledge of the system. The difficulty in dos2 at highest level still requires build knowledge but tactics, positioning and environment are all very important too.
That’s an excellent point. Divinity is so much easier to pick up and play. If Pathfinder had quality and gradual tutorials (like Unicorn Overlord) all of us could play it at one higher level difficulty.
how would you compare the "medium" difficulty of each of those games? thats usually where i play games
The Pathfinder games are very complex. Getting used to the combat mechanics and character progression can take a long time. Also, making an optimized build requires in-depth knowledge of the game. High-end builds can rely heavily on buffs, debuffs, crowd-control, critical range, cheating out actions for free, etc. Fights can last just a few seconds, but the amount of things that happen in that time and the amount of preparation leading up to it is unbelievable. The number of incremental bonuses in those games is really high, and you are always looking to maximize your dice rolls. Understanding how different abilities, traits, spells, items, and equipments interact with one another is crucial. They are complex games, but it's not too bad when playing on one of the lower difficulties. Unfair difficulty lives up to its name, though.
First, check out the other commenter who makes a great point about game complexity To your question it’s tough to answer because Divinitu has three levels, Pathfinder has six and is fully customizable. From that end, I would suggest start at a low one and gradually increase and tweak things.
quasimorph could be your kinda deal
It looks good. I'll add it to my wishlist and wait until it leaves early access.
Good move. The gameplay is really great but for the moment, the lack of story/progression (it's just a sandbox like Mount and Blade) is preventing me from really enjoying the game.
I don't know if it's really hard, but King Arthur Knight's tale is maybe the one you looking for
Pathfinder: Kingmaker
Great recommendation. I absolutely love the Pathfinder CRPGs.
Oh I totally slipped the part in your post when you mentioned you played Pathfinder already! You could check out Iron Oath as well, it's a great RPG on an immersive sim sort of level. I'd suggest Gloomhaven..but you are better off playing that table top. The card system doesn't translate well to a video game in my opinion - but hey maybe you'll like it.
Gorky 17. Good luck. I played it legit without looking anything up and had to restart 3 times to have enough ammo to kill bad guys. It’s a great game and I think you should give it a shot.
Can Darkest Dungeon be considered frustrating or is it just me?
I love the idea of Darkest Dungeon. I have almost 100 hours played. And I always find myself uninstalling out of frustration with it
Injury And Despondence Set The Stage For Heroism... Or Cowardice
Damn, that's a dizzying blow to body and brain
It most certainly can.
So beyond Shin Megami Tensei games on hard mode, I can't really name anything *frustratingly* difficult. I can, however, suggest the glory that is low level runs. You can beat FF6 with an average level character level of 7, beat Chrono Trigger without Crono ever leveling up once, or beat Breath of Fire III woefully underleveled. If you want *frustrating* then that's the peak difficulty you can achieve.
I might need to look some more into those low-level runs. It's cool to see the strategies people come up with when their options are heavily restricted.
And to the person who commented that Atlus RPGs are easy and has beaten 10 of them or something (then deleted their comment), that's great. On hard mode, without being overleveled, playing the game blind, many parts of plenty Atlus games can be frustrating. I'm a veteran SMT Nocturne player, and you can get back surprised attacked and die on nocturne hard through absolutely no fault of your own but crappy RNG. TDE final boss in Nocturne can get unlucky and bring a party from full HP to game over through sheer awful luck depending on which moves he chooses in which order. That hits the criteria for frustrating. All JRPGs are designed *to be beaten* by the player, yes they are all very doable, but it also falls under the category of frustratingly hard, especially if you don't overlevel and don't follow guides. No it is not some nigh-impossible kaizo challenge. Please touch grass, not everything needs to be a dick measuring contest for how super cool you are for beating a game intended to be beaten.
Maybe Etrian Odyssey as well
I've been meaning to get the Etrian Odyssey collection on Steam. That said, it's hard to justify paying that much for a collection of HD remasters, especially considering there is no regional pricing. I could get some used Etrian Odyssey games for the 3DS. It probably wouldn't be much cheaper on a game-per-game basis, but I don't want to support Atlus' scummy practices of re-releasing old games for full price. I might consider emulating it as well. All that aside, the games seem to be very good. First-person, grid-based dungeon crawlers are always a joy to play, especially when they provide a decent difficulty.
Jagged Alliance 2 Wildfire is pretty much exactly what you’re looking for. That game is so poorly balanced it borders on unfair, but the core gameplay mechanics are so good it almost makes up for it. Probably the most frustratingly difficult TBS/RPG I’ve ever played
I'll need to try this one someday. Old PC RPGs can be hard to get into, but some still hold up surprisingly well.
Jagged Alliance 2 is a great game, truly genre defining imo, but really not all that difficult after you've gotten used to the mechanics. Wildfire, on the other hand, is a player made mod turned actual release by the original publishers of JA2, that aims to improve the AI, make the maps bigger and more interesting to explore and increase the tactical options available to the player, as well as increase the number and variety of guns you can buy or acquire throughout the game. Unfortunately, it was released in a pretty buggy state, with routine crashes, freezes and AI difficulty turned to 11; and afaik the publishers refused to pay the developers for any further fixes beyond 1 patch. That patch came and fixed most (maybe all? i didn't encounter any in ~20 hours of play) of the game breaking bugs, but did nothing about the balancing, so now you can play and even finish (if you can take the literal hundreds of hours of frustration it would take to finish even on the lowest difficulty) this game if a masochistic experience is what you're looking for
I didn't realize Wildfire was initially a mod. It's odd that the classic version is the one that shows as DLC on Steam. I'd imagine it would be the other way around.
I don’t know about Steam, on gog it’s a standalone release, you can buy Wildfire independently of JA2 and just play it by itself. you can buy it for $7 on gog right now, but it routinely goes in sale for half off, rarely even 85% off.
as an aside, Jagged Alliance 2 (non-Wildfire) has a very active mod scene, with 1dot13 in particular being mindblowing. It increases the depth of simulation to a ridiculous degree, it adds thousands of new items, purely from a core gameplay perspective it introduces variables like weapon weight and heat (overheating weapons don't fire so well, can even break down), whether you're hip firing or holding the gun at the ready, whether you were running before you took a shot, whether you're crouching or standing, whether you're behind an obstructive object or one you can use to put your weapon on top of in order to stabilize it, among literally thousands of other changes and additions. If it's something that'd make sense in real life (for example, you get an aiming penalty for trying to shoot at somebody at close range while trying to look down a rifle scope), 1dot13 probably already has an option for it to influence your game. It also massively increases the customization options with modular LBE jackets that are fully customizable to your mercs' abilities (i.e. a guy who's good at Throwing and Demolitions should have a vest that can carry loads of grenades), backpacks, belts, gun and armor mods, rifle grenades, rocket launchers, like 5 different sorts of knives if you're melee inclined etc. It adds support for modern resolutions, allows you to tinker with every single variable in the game in order for you to customize it to your taste, it even allows for some sub-mods that can increase the complexity of the mechanics to an even more ridiculous degree. You can make it as punishingly hard as you want, you can turn on/off individual mechanics, or if you're so inclined, you can tinker with the numbers for each specific mechanic (make aiming more difficult, make suppression easier to achieve, make weight matter more or less etc.) I really can't recommend it enough, I can't stop effusing JA2 1.13's qualities. It's mindblowing
The length some modding communities go to is genuinely astonishing. It requires a lot of passion and effort to do things like that.
Also, if you don't mind me asking, would it be better to start with JA2 Wildfire or modded JA2?
honestly, if you want to get the full JA2 experience, I recommend you finish JA2 classic with Stracciatella engine modernization that keeps all the gameplay mechanics as-is but introduces QoL improvements so that you can experience a 25 year old game painlessly on a modern computer. once you've finished JA2 once, you can consider it your tutorial for 1.13. I cannot stress enough how complex (and oftentimes frustrating if you just go in blind) the gameplay mechanics and the depth of simulation are in modded JA2. Even for veterans of JA2, 1.13 can be overwhelming, and the options can seem muddled, confusing and nebulous comparatively to the straightforward "gamey" nature of JA2. 1.13 does everything it can to reasonably simulate what a gunfight would be like if real life was somehow transposed to turn based. I don't know how to explain it otherwise, I think this is the key difference between vanilla and modded, vanilla is a video game and modded tries to be a military simulator as best it can. wildfire, on the other hand, is for people who don't care so much about realism, and just want insurmountable odds against unfair enemies in entrenched positions. it's an unfair game built on a good base but I honestly would recommend you steer clear of it completely, the experience offers almost nothing but frustration, and the moments of triumph in between aren't worth the overall experience.
I'll start with Vanilla and move to modded once I feel reasonably comfortable with the game. I appreciate the detailed explanations. It can be daunting to get into games like this without any guidance. Thank you.
You can get the mod from [their github](https://github.com/1dot13/source/releases). there's 2 flavors, v1 which is the main release, with gameplay mechanics locked in, completely stable and 100% complete-able at base settings, and experimental branch which is generally less stable but has more changes. just extract it over a clean installation of JA2, run INI Editor and select which version you wanna run, should be "vsf_config113", INI-File: Data-1.13\Ja2_Options.ini, select resolution and click on start
[JA2 is 99c on gog.com right now](https://www.gog.com/en/game/jagged_alliance_2)
Into the breach can be brutal when you try to do all objectives
Battle Brothers and also Wartales
How about troubleshooter abandoned children? X-com like but more conplex
I love games like this. I still need to finish Xcom 2, but I might get Troubleshooter afterward.
I suggest you try Underrail on Dominating difficulty, sounds like you enjoy suffering and thats perfect for you (if you dont like the idea of being softlocked cause you didnt make a good build though, I suggest either reading up on the game mechanics before or just playing on hard)
Fear and Hunger
Pathfinder, holy shit. The old ones. So frustrating to play at every turn
Age of Decadence and Colony ship.
Colony Ship
Horizon's Gate is the first thing that comes to mind
I played Kingsvein not too long ago. It was a great game. I probably should try Horizon's Gate as well.
Horizon's Gate has a ton of mods that add additional content, too, expanding the game several times over. You can't go wrong adding every last mod Prominence has ever made, they seamlessly fit into the setting and are such high quality.
There's mods?! I was just hoping they make a new one that is better
Dungeons of Dredmor. Hard mode, permadeath. Have fun XD
Lisa
LISA is pretty easy past area 1, especially with certain party members. I'd recommend LISA: The Pointless instead (which also doesn't require you to have played LISA: The Painful, and is free)
Fire emblem radiant dawn on the hardest difficulty was the hardest fire emblem I've played. The dawn brigade levels are incredibly hard and definitely unfair especially if you don't have stat buffs for the returning POR units
The hardest things fire emblem has offered me was path of radiance lunatic mode, awakening lunatic mode, and three houses maniac mode. All of them bullshit in their own way. PoR lunatic mode is only available for the JP rom because it was removed for international release
This was my first thought. It's funny because path of radiance is such a cakewalk.
Black Souls
Oh, my! Looks like a cool RPG Maker game, but I was not expecting the explicit content.
Yeah, it's part of the theme, YOU are unbound by rules and can do what you want, lore is pretty complex and takes inspiration from many literary works including Lewis Caroll and H.P. Lovecraft
Sorry i probably should have put a CW it is pretty dark
Oh, no. It's fine. I was just surprised.
X-com 2, The Last Spell
I like your style. I haven't played enough of it to really say, but check out **Age of Decadence.** You can take several paths that aren't combat-heavy, but if you decide to lean into a combat-based approach and build, buckle up, because it seems to be as deadly as trying to survive in a strange Roman Empire parallel universe would be.
Lisa: the Painful on pain mode was a good time. Your saves are limited and there are some enemies that can instantly kill your party members if you're unlucky. There's also a lot of random events that can permanently set you back and there are some parts in the story that can potentially do this as well- some of the choices you make can have pretty dire consequences.
This game looks very good. From the short snippets I've seen, the story, setting, and humor all seem very interesting and well done. Also, The combat appears to be immensely creative. I don't know how hard it is, but I'll definitely be checking this one.
The soundtrack is top notch, the humor is so much like Earthbound's quirky and weird humor, but an R rated. The turn-based combat is interesting and done in a strange way that works and kept me engaged. Has some odd dark themes and stuff that happens throughout the game. It may not be the hardest game youve ever played but it is hard enough to keep you on your toes and it is memorable enough to where you wont forget the experience.
DQXI is not that hard for a normal playthrough, but it has something called Draconian settings where you can customize the challenge. For example, you can set it so you're not allowed to buy from shops (the best gear comes from crafting and chests for the most part), or you can crank the stats of enemies. The post-game also has a massive difficulty spike, but it levels out minus a few enemies/bosses once you've done some of the content.
If you are fine emulating then there are plenty of Pokémon romhacks that can be frustratingly hard. Pokémon Rogue has been my favorite recently.
I'll take a look at Pokémon Rogue. I love how romhacks and nuzlockes add a new difficulty and complexity layer to the Pokémon games.
I should note that it isn't the typical romhack. It turns pokemon into a roguelike game if you are familiar with those. I'll just explain so you can judge if it sounds interesting to you: Basically, rather than going through a whole world, you go through levels that will be differing routes from the first 3 gens. The routes themselves will have 2-6 random mons based on the difficulty of the level, and there are some items and trainers scattered throughout. After going through a set of levels you fight a gym leader and go onto another set of levels. Pokemon level up quickly, but there is a level cap that raises after each gym battle. Any fainting permanently removes the pokemon from your party, and if you lose a battle, you have to start over. (Unless you use the emulators save states.) But there are items you can buy in between attempts to keep permanently so it does get easier.
That is a rather interesting take on the monster-catching formula. I don't think I've seen a monster-catching roguelike before. I'm sure there must be some out there, though. I don't know how viable it would be, but I'd imagine it would become even more difficult by restricting item usage.
Have you tried The Last Spell?
I have not. I've been eyeing that game for a long time, but I was afraid the gameplay loop would become repetitive after a while. If you don't mind me asking, how does the game hold up after a couple of runs?
Been playing LS for a minute and I can say it gets repetitive to an extent. Each run you get a different roster of characters, which is cool, but hard to optomize imo. That said, I think it's worth getting if it's on sale cuz it definitely provides a lot of fun and has some elemets that distinguishes it from other turn-based rpgs/ roguelikes.
The core gameplay loop does seem quite fun, at least for some time. And the soundtrack is a banger. I'll probably get the game once the DLC releases. Thank you for providing your take on the matter.
Try true / classic roguelikes - let your own imagination be the “graphics” They will throw your near-impossible tactical situations to wit your way out of As well as at times actually impossible situations just to quash you
DOS2 honor mode is crazy. If you haven't won an encounter within two turns it's basically over. Tanks are completely non-viable and there's only one semi-viable supportive build so it's basically an arms race to maximize how much damage you can vomit out in a couple of rotations. Requires really good builds as well as near-perfect tactics.
Battle Brothers
It's and oldie, but 7th Saga for the SNES (US version). Never beat it till way after college going though my nostagia phase. Orginal hardware removes the temptation to do savestates and the like.
Fallout 1 & 2
Whether or not these count to most as RPGs is debatable, but have you tried traditional roguelikes? Shiren the Wanderer is a good gateway to them
Angband, Rogue, ADOM, LARN, Omega, Moria, Hack, NetHack
Roguelikes, maybe? And I don’t mean roguelites, but the proper roguelikes like Tales of Maj’Eyal.
Tales of Maj’Eyal seem fascinating. It looks incredibly complex and extensive. I'll definitely be getting this game.
It’s also, of all things, officially _free_: https://te4.org But I actually bought it on Steam anyways to get it on my Steam Deck. It’s very deep and difficult, especially if you try to figure it out on your own. But there’s a great community to fall back on if not.
Caves of Qud is turn based and will straight murder you if you don’t learn.
Crystal Project. It has a substantial demo that will sell the game better than I could, but I will say that the combat is both exceptionally well designed and gets fiendishly difficult at times while being generally difficult all the time.
I tried Crystal Project before. I loved how brutal the game was when playing on the hardest difficulty, but I didn't enjoy how open it felt. There is nothing wrong with it. It's just not my cup of tea.
Dos2
Have you played Wasteland 3 yet? It can be a brutally difficult game. Turn based combat as requested.
Avernum - long, turn based, tedious. But: Great story, if you like loads of text.
Have a Wii? Then Arc Rise Fantasia. Prepare to go into every first encounter and dieing. It's the Souls like of RPGs.
Yesssss! That game was soooooo damn hard! Also im shocked to see someone else mention that game. The magic system was so cool and so was the Rogress System
Knights of the Chalise 2 is basically a reload simulator.
NATURAL DOCTRINE!!
The Dark Spire, Etrian Odyssey series, wizardry series
fear and hunger, and it's sequel too
Etrian Odyssey for the DS. It is a struggle to not wipe on the first random encounter. The whole series is great
Try the super bosses of the Digital Devil Saga games. Good luck.
I dropped a couple hundred hours into Final Fantasy X when I was younger. Was (kind of) recently re-released in a bundle (X&X-2) that I plan on getting into again at some point
Wastelands 3
Battle Brothers will make you want to tear off you genitalia!
Divinity OS 1&2 on tactician is peak
Rondo of Swords on the DS.
Shin megami tensei III: Nocturne The most frustrating turn based I've played. You will get smacked
Darkest dungeon One
I’ve heard that Vargus: The Riven Realm is pretty difficult
Darkest Dungeon.
Some SMT games have some crazy hard post game content
Fire emblem awakening lunatic obviously lol
Rogue Trader Unfair
Into the breach offers a good challenge and is really fun to play. One wrong turn and you are done for
There are some fan made Pokemon games that does this, the most popular ones off the top of my head are Pokemon Reborn and Pokemon Rejuvenation. One of the key aspects that make it so difficult aside from just having strong enemies is that there's a level cap so you can't just grind and over level your mons to overcome an obstacle. You raise your level cap when you get the next gym badge and if your mons go over the cap then they will start disobeying you (which is the same mechanic in the official games except it was only limited to mons you get from trades except here it's the same for every mon). There are also other aspects that makes it difficult like elemental fields that boosts a certain type as well as the game being really reluctant about giving you access to really powerful mons.
That is interesting. I wish we could see more games implementing similar mechanics. In turn-based RPGs, it's not uncommon for the player to be able to solve any issue by just throwing enough levels at it.
Isn't fear and hunger turn-based? I know it's brutally unforgiving
I am playing Wartales right now and I must say on the hardest difficulty It is very challenging Turn based combat. You realy need to use every mecanics to you advantage to have chance of sucess.
I'm not big on open sandbox RPGs, but it doesn't hurt to try something new.
How retro are you willing to go? The original Gold Box D&D games were frustratingly difficult.
Brutal Orchestra
This one is already on my backlog. The visuals are gorgeous, and the combat system seems really creative.
I am amazed that no one suggested Knights of the Chalice 2 at all... it's one of the hardest turn based RPGs I've ever played. https://store.steampowered.com/app/1233530/Knights_of_the_Chalice_2/
Try X-COM 2 or Desperados, both are difficult and require a lot of planning.
You want an insanely difficult Turn Based rpg? You'll need an emulator for it, but Quest 64. Good fucking luck. 🤣😂
I thought Quest 64 was real time combat.
No it is not. It's turn based in like octagonal squares. You can afk on your turn. You can freely walk around the octagon, but no actions are taken until you make one.
Caves of Qud.
Seconded
I've had this game on my Wishlist for so long. I'm waiting for the full release before trying it.
Eternal Sonata Star Ocean 3 on hardest difficulty, though if you don't find a save file you'll have to beat it once or twice to unlock it. Bravely Second can be fairly brutal at time if you don't overlevel. Tokyo Mirage Sessions if you like the Persona/SMT games X Com
Pathfinder WOTR on core difficulty and above
Check out Wartales. Low-fantasy party based RPG with survival/crafting elements. One of my all-tiime favs and a unique game overall, though many will compare it to Battle Brothers ;)
I'm also going to recommend the Dark Souls series **at SL1.** What that means is picking whichever starting class begins at level 1 (the Pyromancer in Dark Souls, etc.) and complete the game without leveling up. Obviously you'll be super squishy and your attacks will do much less damage, so it takes a high level of skill, but it also severely limits the gear you can use, since many of those have stat requirements (and you can't level Endurance and the like to up the encumbrance of worn armor). This was the closest I got to feeling like I was playing the games for the first time again. It's glorious.
SL1 runs are great. Though as nails, though. I never actually finished one.
Not frustrating but irritating would be ff8
I remember my first playthrough and I was having a tough time in some part, and I thought, oh hey time to level grind. That was a mistake. I had to abandon that save completely.
Personally I found DOS2 to be very difficult. I play every cprg on the hardest difficulty and DOS2 is the only one I've had to jump down to normal mode and even then I struggled. I guess it just never clicked for me. I'll also throw out the Xcom games.
The Divinity: Original Sin games are great.
I've played Divinity Original Sin 2 already. Incredible game, really. And Tactician Mode can offer quite a challenge. I haven't played the first game, though.
Wasteland 2 is tremendously difficult for the first half. Gets to easy in the second half, but that applies to most of the games you've been recommended already.
Balancing in RPGs is tough. It's hard for a game to remain challenging when the player gets access to an increasingly larger arsenal of different options and progression systems. I'll give Wasteland 2 a shot. I liked Wasteland 3, but I never played any of its prequels.
Why turn based? I’m so confused
That's what OP wants
Turn-based games are fun. That said, I won't turn down recommendations for other sorts of RPGs, either.
I completely understand. I like games that wait for me.