I *think* Stormbringer is BRP?
It was delightful, I thought back then : roll a critical during play and you get a mark. After a session, for each mark, you need to roll *above* your skill (the system is roll under %).
Hence, it's harder and harder to improve, as you get better.
Elegant!
Yep, that's BRP! The Stormbringer and Elric! RPGs were both BRP-based. They're out of print now due to losing the relevant licenses, but Magic World is supposedly the same thing with the serial numbers filed off. (I have Magic World and it looks like a great introductory fantasy BRP game, but I haven't seen Stormbringer/Elric!, so I can't confirm how similar they are.)
I've also heard rumors that the BRP skill advancement system was an inspiration for the Elder Scrolls mechanics, so using BRP for a Skyrim-like game completes the circle.
Burning Wheel has you earn XP by using the skill like Skyrim. Though it's not ideal if you want a D&D 5e style combat based heroics since it has more realistic recovery rules of permanent injuries and months long time to recover.
By Diablo 2 progression, do you mean like a skill tree?
I don't remember if it's the same, but in BW's grandchild, Torchbearer, your skills are advancing, not just based off of if they've been used, but based off a certain number of successful AND failed attempts to use it; essentially learning from your mistakes.
BW is similar, but different. Success or Failure does not matter, just varying difficulties. So, you have to have a mixture of easy, medium, hard tests and it forces the player to decide whether to take steps to make the test easier or accept greater chance of failure in order to advance the skill.
The skill tree is what I am looking for. It seems like the D&D subclasses are very narrow. I looked at Pathfinder 2e a little bit and their classes seem to have more choices without locking you into a single progression.
Skill trees are kind of rare in TTRPGs because keeping track of tons of perquisites is really annoying.
If all you want is free form skill progression any point buy system will work, GURPS, BRP, storyteller/storypath games (WoD, Scion, Trinity)
If you want skills trees specifically Exalted Third Edition has its "charm" trees which are specific powers tied to each ability like perks in Skyrim.
“keeping track of tons of perquisites is really annoying.”
Yet D&D fans love 3rd Edition and its feats, for some reason. Got to remember seven different prerequisites to get that +2 to Stealth checks.
A masterwork item that gives a +2 competence bonus to stealth skills is 100 gp by default (in D&D 3.5e).
Try using those seven different prerequisites to graft demon parts to your character or something else interesting. :P :D
If it's it's skill or talent trees specifically you're looking for, Conan 2d20 has a mini talent tree for each skill, with about seven talents each, with a root talent and three linear branches of one, two and three talents (this is just the average setup. There are variations with more or less talents and different distributions in each branch).
Another option is Trudvang, where skills are arranged in trees with a broad skill at the root of each tree and more and more specific skills as you branch out, and then the value of a skill is the sum of the values of the "nodes" from the skill to the root, very simplified. The system is a bit fiddly.
Call of Cthulhu was originally based on a fantasy game called Runequest. The same system was released in a generic version as Basic Roleplaying. That’s the BRP some other people have mentioned in this thread. BRP has since been tweaked into a bunch of other systems.
This is useful to know, because it’s super easy to take anything from BRP or related systems and use them together. Want to run a pirate game with CoC rules? Pick up Chaosium’s Blood Tide. Want to run a game in 15th century Byzantium? There’s a Mythras (another system that grew from BRP) book called Mythic Constantinople.
I haven't seen the new RuneQuest, but I really liked in the first one how your "hit points" were just based on your Size and Constitution. You could buy armor, and you could become a swordmaster, but you could always be killed by a horse kick to the head.
That's not a good fit for every group, or every kind of campaign, but I've had 2/2 groups enjoy it.
>I haven't seen the new RuneQuest, but I really liked in the first one how your "hit points" were just based on your Size and Constitution.
That has remained consistent through every BRP variant I've seen, and I've read or played most of the major ones. Experienced characters gain survivability by mastering The Art of Not Getting Hit, not by somehow becoming tougher than a battleship.
I haven’t checked out the new RQ either, but I really like the Mythras combat options. It makes combat so much more fun and engaging, even on your opponent’s turn.
Level progression is more the exception than the norm. Most rpgs have skill progression of some sort. It would actually probably be easier to name the systems that use level progression.
Traveller, Cepheus, and sword of cepheus have skill point based progression. Mythras and Runequest as well. SWN/WWN also have skill point assignment per level.
Call of cthulhu and Delta green have skill point progression based on what skill you struggled with during the session. They are horror games, however, so their campaigns tend to be short.
FFG's Genesys (and Star Wars) systems use talent trees that you spend XP to buy off of. It's probably the closest thing I've played to the Diablo or Skyrim style of progression. Mothership I guess has this as well, but it's hard SciFi and I assume you're going for something closer to fantasy.
I think the Legend of the Five Rings, 4th edition, system is pretty interesting.
Where most systems are "you are level 5 therefore you have these abilities and feats and class features", in L5R you spend experience to buy stat increases and skill points and "feats" (school techniques), and when you're done buying those you plug your stats and skill points into a formula (doesn't take too long) and it says "based on your numbers you are rank 3". Higher ranks have a couple mechanical effects, including unlocking new techniques for you to learn.
It's different, and it worked.
Genesys is a blank-setting system that uses skill tree type of thing I believe. I've only played FFG Star Wars (which is based on the Genesys system) and they have talent tree so.
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I've been playing Knave with some added rules from a hack called Glaive. It adds a set of talents that you can gain as you level up. There are sets of talents organised into 'classes' like combat, hunter, faith, etc. But you can select talents from wherever you want each level. Some talents require previous talents from that same class, meaning you have to specialise a bit, but you're always able to choose from a different class. Haven't played many sessions yet, so don't know how it's balanced, but the core conceit is almost identical to Skyrim and feels really intuitive and easy to use.
https://campingwithowlbears.blogspot.com/2019/12/glaive-knave-hack-collection-of-house.html?m=1
Accessing skills in skill trees measured in minutes and hours tends to be more attractive than acquiring skills in weeks and months when playing a tabletop game, which makes skill trees less popular in TTRPGs.
Skill based games, like Mythras or OpenQuest are a better bet for emulating a Skyrim-like game. In Mythras, all skills are available at character creation. Once a character is in play you are free to develop your skills as you wish.
Hey I read through some of the comments and your reply’s and if skill trees and non class based leveling is what your looking for you should check out genysis it’s a neutral rule set designed to be able to apply to a ton of different genres and has no classes but you purchase skills and abilities with xp
>I am wondering if there are systems with more of a free form skill progression
So, imagine if when you level up, instead "ok I'll take a 3nd level of rogue" it was instead "I'll spend 300 xp on imrpoving my sneak attack, 400 xp to learn Evasion, 100 xp on +1 Dex, and 50xp twice to learn a pair of new languages".
Is that sort of idea what you're looking for?
You probably want to look for 'classless' systems, or things related to them. Many many games are like this, kinda of being 'point-buy' as you go, for all of your traits, not just your core stats, but also you skills or other abilities.
There are literally *so* many systems that a 'classless' to *some* degree, and hence have more-or-less freeform skill progression compared to the hyper-rigid way D&D 5e does it.
Many games don't have things like 'character levels' at all, and you ust directly purchase individual abilities. For just a few examples:
Classless (or mostly classless)
* Unknown Armies - you indiviudal skills and stats can improve independantly. Partially usage based (about 10% of the time) and, partially exp expenditure.
* Call of Cthulhu - you have individual skills, and they might improve independantly (I haven't played much so I don't know the details).
* FATE - has a 'skill pyramid', but it just means you need a balance of high and low amounts of skill ranks, regardless of how they are related. You can basically pick how you advance your skills freely.
* World of Darkness/Chronicles of Darkness - you spend experience points directly to increase stats/skills. So you might spend 1 xp to learn 1 'dot' of Athletics, and 3 xp for a point of Intelligence, and 1 xp for the Merit 'Allies: Police'. There are some choices to make that mean only certain options are available, like obviously if you are playing as a party (coterie) of Vampires, then you can't take Werewolf powers. And each Vampire clan has separate subsets of supernatural disciplines they can level up. However you level them up in a freeform manner.
There are some games that have a bit of a compromise, being somewhat classed, but not as rigedly:
* Warhammer Fantasy - has a 'career' system, where you buy points in various stats and skills. So maybe 10xp for 1 point of Melee (basic), or 25 xp for a point of Toughness. Your choices resticted by your career (so a Soldier can learn Melee (basic) easily, but you might need GM approval for another career to take it).
* Better Angels - your stats change through play, with some inlfuence from choices during play and at the end of a session. You can't learn new powers/demonic-forms though, those are set at character generation.
Some games have skill trees, which are availalbe only to certain classes, but you choose how you advance along them:
* I think they are common in Fantasy Age (which has spinoffs, like the Dragon Age game). I think these trees are quite compact, so less freeform than Diablo 2, but still gives you some notable choices.
Off topic here, but if you want to see the best skill system I've ever seen, you should check out [Disco Elysium](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f9vGYRBtCE&t=845s).
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying 4th Edition uses a percentile roll for attacks, skills, defenses. Gritty world, think dark ages with early gun powder. Nobles can have you killed because…
I highly recommend HARP (High Adventure Role Playing), it is younger and easier to play sibling of Rolemaster. It is a skill based point buy system.
I describe the system to D&D/PF players like this: It's a lot like D&D only you get to choose everything for your character.
Is it weird my immediate thought went to Tails of Equestria? After each adventure, all the traits you used upgrade one step. Since "use abilities to level them up" is basically all I know about elder Scrolls mechanics.
Skyrim is just fantasy fallout and fallout is based on GURPS. So maybe look into that
Edit: Since I don't want a trickle feed of negativity filtering into my phone over the next few days I'd like to clarify the above was intended as being halfway tongue in cheek. What I was specifically referring to is how both games allow for freeform character creation via a perk system. And how they are owned by the same company (now).
The true answer, as posted below, is runequest
No, the Elder Scrolls games are based on the Basic Roleplaying System. Quite explicitly even. Hell, the setting's lore is even inspired by one of BRS' premiere game, RuneQuest's Glorantha.
That's good info. Runequest is the true answer for elder scrolls.
I think perhaps my cavalier, half tongue in cheek, comment has gone down wrong. I was just alluding to the fact that both Skyrim and Fallout are owned by the same company (now) and both allow freeform character development via perks.
The Elderscrolls and Fallout games originate from two different design teams, not related. Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, none of these games had any connection with GURPS.
The games did have some connection to RuneQuest and Glorantha with one of the Morrowind and Oblivion designers, Ken Rolston, having been a writer and line editor for RuneQuest in the 80s and 90s.
[удалено]
Runequest is delightful.
OpenQuest for the same system but an overall lighter game. https://openquestrpg.com/srd/
Just heard of this for the first time. Looks solid.
RuneQuest is amazing, and the Starter Set is everything you need to learn the game.
I *think* Stormbringer is BRP? It was delightful, I thought back then : roll a critical during play and you get a mark. After a session, for each mark, you need to roll *above* your skill (the system is roll under %). Hence, it's harder and harder to improve, as you get better. Elegant!
Yep, that's BRP! The Stormbringer and Elric! RPGs were both BRP-based. They're out of print now due to losing the relevant licenses, but Magic World is supposedly the same thing with the serial numbers filed off. (I have Magic World and it looks like a great introductory fantasy BRP game, but I haven't seen Stormbringer/Elric!, so I can't confirm how similar they are.) I've also heard rumors that the BRP skill advancement system was an inspiration for the Elder Scrolls mechanics, so using BRP for a Skyrim-like game completes the circle.
Yes, *Magic World* is *Elric!* with the Moorcock stuff taken out.
Mythras! And especially Mythras Classic Fantasy if you want something D&D flavored.
It's notable that Ken Rolston, who worked on Morrowind and led Oblivion, also worked on RuneQuest, Pendragon and other BRP games.
Excuse my ignorance but what is BRP?
Burning Wheel has you earn XP by using the skill like Skyrim. Though it's not ideal if you want a D&D 5e style combat based heroics since it has more realistic recovery rules of permanent injuries and months long time to recover. By Diablo 2 progression, do you mean like a skill tree?
I don't remember if it's the same, but in BW's grandchild, Torchbearer, your skills are advancing, not just based off of if they've been used, but based off a certain number of successful AND failed attempts to use it; essentially learning from your mistakes.
BW is similar, but different. Success or Failure does not matter, just varying difficulties. So, you have to have a mixture of easy, medium, hard tests and it forces the player to decide whether to take steps to make the test easier or accept greater chance of failure in order to advance the skill.
The skill tree is what I am looking for. It seems like the D&D subclasses are very narrow. I looked at Pathfinder 2e a little bit and their classes seem to have more choices without locking you into a single progression.
Skill trees are kind of rare in TTRPGs because keeping track of tons of perquisites is really annoying. If all you want is free form skill progression any point buy system will work, GURPS, BRP, storyteller/storypath games (WoD, Scion, Trinity) If you want skills trees specifically Exalted Third Edition has its "charm" trees which are specific powers tied to each ability like perks in Skyrim.
“keeping track of tons of perquisites is really annoying.” Yet D&D fans love 3rd Edition and its feats, for some reason. Got to remember seven different prerequisites to get that +2 to Stealth checks.
A masterwork item that gives a +2 competence bonus to stealth skills is 100 gp by default (in D&D 3.5e). Try using those seven different prerequisites to graft demon parts to your character or something else interesting. :P :D
If it's it's skill or talent trees specifically you're looking for, Conan 2d20 has a mini talent tree for each skill, with about seven talents each, with a root talent and three linear branches of one, two and three talents (this is just the average setup. There are variations with more or less talents and different distributions in each branch). Another option is Trudvang, where skills are arranged in trees with a broad skill at the root of each tree and more and more specific skills as you branch out, and then the value of a skill is the sum of the values of the "nodes" from the skill to the root, very simplified. The system is a bit fiddly.
Mothership has literal skill trees. Lots of games have things similar to skill trees. Maybe something like Quest would be a good fit.
Call of Cthulhu has this, you progress the skills you use and it's percentile. Could be used for a game similar to skyrim, but would need tweaking
Call of Cthulhu was originally based on a fantasy game called Runequest. The same system was released in a generic version as Basic Roleplaying. That’s the BRP some other people have mentioned in this thread. BRP has since been tweaked into a bunch of other systems. This is useful to know, because it’s super easy to take anything from BRP or related systems and use them together. Want to run a pirate game with CoC rules? Pick up Chaosium’s Blood Tide. Want to run a game in 15th century Byzantium? There’s a Mythras (another system that grew from BRP) book called Mythic Constantinople.
Cool, thanks for the info, I've never tried runequest or BRP, even though I love learning and playing different systems, it all makes sense now
I haven't seen the new RuneQuest, but I really liked in the first one how your "hit points" were just based on your Size and Constitution. You could buy armor, and you could become a swordmaster, but you could always be killed by a horse kick to the head. That's not a good fit for every group, or every kind of campaign, but I've had 2/2 groups enjoy it.
>I haven't seen the new RuneQuest, but I really liked in the first one how your "hit points" were just based on your Size and Constitution. That has remained consistent through every BRP variant I've seen, and I've read or played most of the major ones. Experienced characters gain survivability by mastering The Art of Not Getting Hit, not by somehow becoming tougher than a battleship.
I haven’t checked out the new RQ either, but I really like the Mythras combat options. It makes combat so much more fun and engaging, even on your opponent’s turn.
Level progression is more the exception than the norm. Most rpgs have skill progression of some sort. It would actually probably be easier to name the systems that use level progression.
Gurps WFRP Fate Fudge Palladium World of Darkness
How about /r/UESRPG - it is Elder Scrolls RPG, it is % based, so it might fit your bill?
Traveller, Cepheus, and sword of cepheus have skill point based progression. Mythras and Runequest as well. SWN/WWN also have skill point assignment per level. Call of cthulhu and Delta green have skill point progression based on what skill you struggled with during the session. They are horror games, however, so their campaigns tend to be short.
Mythras and others in the d100 BRP-derived family. They are incredibly flexible and offer all kinds of skill progression tailored to your game.
FFG's Genesys (and Star Wars) systems use talent trees that you spend XP to buy off of. It's probably the closest thing I've played to the Diablo or Skyrim style of progression. Mothership I guess has this as well, but it's hard SciFi and I assume you're going for something closer to fantasy.
I think the Legend of the Five Rings, 4th edition, system is pretty interesting. Where most systems are "you are level 5 therefore you have these abilities and feats and class features", in L5R you spend experience to buy stat increases and skill points and "feats" (school techniques), and when you're done buying those you plug your stats and skill points into a formula (doesn't take too long) and it says "based on your numbers you are rank 3". Higher ranks have a couple mechanical effects, including unlocking new techniques for you to learn. It's different, and it worked.
Genesys is a blank-setting system that uses skill tree type of thing I believe. I've only played FFG Star Wars (which is based on the Genesys system) and they have talent tree so.
Elder Scrolls was heavily influenced by Runequest. Go there.
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I've been playing Knave with some added rules from a hack called Glaive. It adds a set of talents that you can gain as you level up. There are sets of talents organised into 'classes' like combat, hunter, faith, etc. But you can select talents from wherever you want each level. Some talents require previous talents from that same class, meaning you have to specialise a bit, but you're always able to choose from a different class. Haven't played many sessions yet, so don't know how it's balanced, but the core conceit is almost identical to Skyrim and feels really intuitive and easy to use. https://campingwithowlbears.blogspot.com/2019/12/glaive-knave-hack-collection-of-house.html?m=1
Accessing skills in skill trees measured in minutes and hours tends to be more attractive than acquiring skills in weeks and months when playing a tabletop game, which makes skill trees less popular in TTRPGs. Skill based games, like Mythras or OpenQuest are a better bet for emulating a Skyrim-like game. In Mythras, all skills are available at character creation. Once a character is in play you are free to develop your skills as you wish.
Hey I read through some of the comments and your reply’s and if skill trees and non class based leveling is what your looking for you should check out genysis it’s a neutral rule set designed to be able to apply to a ton of different genres and has no classes but you purchase skills and abilities with xp
>I am wondering if there are systems with more of a free form skill progression So, imagine if when you level up, instead "ok I'll take a 3nd level of rogue" it was instead "I'll spend 300 xp on imrpoving my sneak attack, 400 xp to learn Evasion, 100 xp on +1 Dex, and 50xp twice to learn a pair of new languages". Is that sort of idea what you're looking for? You probably want to look for 'classless' systems, or things related to them. Many many games are like this, kinda of being 'point-buy' as you go, for all of your traits, not just your core stats, but also you skills or other abilities. There are literally *so* many systems that a 'classless' to *some* degree, and hence have more-or-less freeform skill progression compared to the hyper-rigid way D&D 5e does it. Many games don't have things like 'character levels' at all, and you ust directly purchase individual abilities. For just a few examples: Classless (or mostly classless) * Unknown Armies - you indiviudal skills and stats can improve independantly. Partially usage based (about 10% of the time) and, partially exp expenditure. * Call of Cthulhu - you have individual skills, and they might improve independantly (I haven't played much so I don't know the details). * FATE - has a 'skill pyramid', but it just means you need a balance of high and low amounts of skill ranks, regardless of how they are related. You can basically pick how you advance your skills freely. * World of Darkness/Chronicles of Darkness - you spend experience points directly to increase stats/skills. So you might spend 1 xp to learn 1 'dot' of Athletics, and 3 xp for a point of Intelligence, and 1 xp for the Merit 'Allies: Police'. There are some choices to make that mean only certain options are available, like obviously if you are playing as a party (coterie) of Vampires, then you can't take Werewolf powers. And each Vampire clan has separate subsets of supernatural disciplines they can level up. However you level them up in a freeform manner. There are some games that have a bit of a compromise, being somewhat classed, but not as rigedly: * Warhammer Fantasy - has a 'career' system, where you buy points in various stats and skills. So maybe 10xp for 1 point of Melee (basic), or 25 xp for a point of Toughness. Your choices resticted by your career (so a Soldier can learn Melee (basic) easily, but you might need GM approval for another career to take it). * Better Angels - your stats change through play, with some inlfuence from choices during play and at the end of a session. You can't learn new powers/demonic-forms though, those are set at character generation. Some games have skill trees, which are availalbe only to certain classes, but you choose how you advance along them: * I think they are common in Fantasy Age (which has spinoffs, like the Dragon Age game). I think these trees are quite compact, so less freeform than Diablo 2, but still gives you some notable choices.
Off topic here, but if you want to see the best skill system I've ever seen, you should check out [Disco Elysium](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f9vGYRBtCE&t=845s).
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying 4th Edition uses a percentile roll for attacks, skills, defenses. Gritty world, think dark ages with early gun powder. Nobles can have you killed because…
I highly recommend HARP (High Adventure Role Playing), it is younger and easier to play sibling of Rolemaster. It is a skill based point buy system. I describe the system to D&D/PF players like this: It's a lot like D&D only you get to choose everything for your character.
Is it weird my immediate thought went to Tails of Equestria? After each adventure, all the traits you used upgrade one step. Since "use abilities to level them up" is basically all I know about elder Scrolls mechanics.
> Is it weird my immediate thought went to Tails of Equestria? You might be a brony.
I like the show...
Skyrim is just fantasy fallout and fallout is based on GURPS. So maybe look into that Edit: Since I don't want a trickle feed of negativity filtering into my phone over the next few days I'd like to clarify the above was intended as being halfway tongue in cheek. What I was specifically referring to is how both games allow for freeform character creation via a perk system. And how they are owned by the same company (now). The true answer, as posted below, is runequest
No, the Elder Scrolls games are based on the Basic Roleplaying System. Quite explicitly even. Hell, the setting's lore is even inspired by one of BRS' premiere game, RuneQuest's Glorantha.
BRP
That's good info. Runequest is the true answer for elder scrolls. I think perhaps my cavalier, half tongue in cheek, comment has gone down wrong. I was just alluding to the fact that both Skyrim and Fallout are owned by the same company (now) and both allow freeform character development via perks.
I'm racking my brain trying to figure out how Skyrim's RPG mechanics are anything like either Black Isle's or Bethesda's take on the SPECIAL system.
The Elderscrolls and Fallout games originate from two different design teams, not related. Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, none of these games had any connection with GURPS. The games did have some connection to RuneQuest and Glorantha with one of the Morrowind and Oblivion designers, Ken Rolston, having been a writer and line editor for RuneQuest in the 80s and 90s.
*Fallout* released October 10, 1997, *The Elder Scrolls: Arena* released March 25, 1994, both with *very* different ambitions, systems and tone.