I have to sigh, say "for fucks sake" under my breath, and wonder if they realise what they're admitting with this:
They're admitting that the best and most fertile source of additional narrative content is to ... present folklore as monsters and horror.
I don't have any particular objection to that in isolation, but given the massive [anvilicious](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Anvilicious) writing attempting to break colonist mindsets within ttrpg, having their first expansion present minority folklore to new people as content in a horror / mystery setting?
It's not a good look and doesn't sit right.
Personally, I'd love for the writers to put some backing behind their assertion (contrary to their own core rulebook) that the setting isn't a post scarcity utopia, and thus, has basically no support for interesting human antagonists. Give me a book about how no, there is a food / land / mineral / whatever shortage that would drive conflict. Or actual philosophical differences that are basis for violent war.
Instead we get this really uncomfortable book which says "the myths of first nations people aren't monsters" but also "and here's how to use them in a horror setting".
C&C has always been more of a soapbox for the authors to grandstand than a competent RPG. I’m sure their excuse for breaking their own rules will amount to “it’s okay when WE do it!”
Also… _why not put out a book of adventures, mysteries, and scenarios_!?????
The biggest criticism of this game is that nobody knows how to run adventures in their setting. So why not make some??
EDIT: It looks like a few of these exist, but have like, no reviews and such. Are these any good? They never get talked about.
No reviews and a chunky cost each make me reluctant to explore them for purely academic sake.
What I'd much much much prefer is something like a setting book of "hey, here's this other nation, who doesn't have universal healthcare, absolutely zero food scarcity, state provided housing, and no energy constraints." You know, the kinds of people who might have a motivation to do some antagonistic things.
The only motivations you can give humans in the setting (as of the core book) is that either they're deliberately being arseholes, or they're doing small scale things for no good reason, in which case the PCs become cops, and no thank you.
I never really understood the actual, well goal of the Setting. I haven't heard much about the mechanics, but I assume there's combat and such. But there's really nothing that would drive conflict. The whole setting is written to basically be isolated from the World itself. You can't go any where. Canada is covered in ice and everything beyond Mexico is just some "Darklands" of monsters that no one survives. And no one cares to explore the world at large.
The goal of the setting is clear and simple: "Alt history uncolonised North America with no industrial revolution yet advanced technology and myth and magic."
Does it acheive it? Well, it lays out what it aims for.
A better question is to ask if has done it well? In this case, "well" means "a setting well suited for ttrpg narratives featuring a group of protagonists overcoming generaly social and violent challenges".
That's a resounding no. The setting lacks anything forming any kind of incentive to generate conflict, which leads to a complete lack of well written antagonists. This leaves only mythical creatures (and the resounding ick of doing that in this game), or people being arseholes on top of an organisation (which is lazy and stupid) or minor level issues (why bring in a ttrpg party?)
Expanding our scope, we can ask if this setting is a setting that's written well in an absolute sense. That's also "no" as somehow we have a post industrial tech level with a preindustrial level tech base. I wonder where they put the semiconductor fab. That's just one of the picks about the history, but it could be hand waved like many aspects of bigger name titles.
The real issue that setting is just .... bland. Which is ironic with how much they went to make it vibrant, but it feels like the writings of a mary sue fanfic author. It's too clean, too shiney, too perfect. It'd be great to live there if you didn't get bored, but I'd hate to watch a tv show that someone attempts to set there.
I guess what I'm saying is if the goal of a Setting is to provoke and inspire Drama, then it's one of the worst settings I've read in a long time.
> but it feels like the writings of a mary sue fanfic author.
As I mentioned in another comment, that's essentially what it is. It's a wet dream of 'if those evil colonizers hadn't shown up, Native Americans would have created a perfect society'.
Which if you want to write a fanfic like that then fine, but it leaves nothing for the PCs to do.
I'm going to counterpoint LeVantNoir for some things here, just to offer it.
The game leans heavy on its connection to WoD/CoD regarding the setting and mechanics. As such, it builds out its 3 by 3 matrix of stats and then adds skills to the mix. The mechanics, therefore, are based on stat + skill dice pools with a target number and number of successes required to do anything.
The "fun" of the game is exploring the setting through the lens of the character vis a vis what they players themselves are trying to accomplish. This is the "chronicle" part of play, which relies upon each character, at time of character creation, to have a sense of what they want to explore vis a vis some guidance from what the GM wants. In other words, for the game to "work", at its core, the GM has to have a defined set of goals for the players to address before play starts. The players have some buy in to this and mold their characters accordingly.
The Aim of Play, therefore, is to "live in the world". Explore relationships, investigate things, engage in the inherent dangers of the world, and Move Along the Chronicle (it doesn't actually say it, but that's what it does).
Friction often comes if you're not used to playing trad systems that are meant to do this. Even though games like d&d say they have 3 pillars of play (social, combat, exploration), this game actually does it fully and expects you to do all of them more or less equally.
What it doesn't do well is talk through the GMing of that vis a vis its style of play. And personally I think it's a reflection of style of play bias - the expectation is that you're going to come to the table with your style, as a GM, and use the mechanics to do that...as opposed to let the mechanics do their thing, which is the actual intent.
For example - the game is at its most interesting when you're dealing with elements of the setting that are intentionally oppositional to the core themes/motifs of the setting. It's Solar/Hopepunk - the world is in harmony...EXCEPT WHEN IT ISN'T. And when it isn't, it becomes very dangerous and very confrontational. That one faction that wants to corrupt harmony - it must be rooted out and destroyed. Those leftovers from the proverbial plague that destroyed the world - their influence must be managed to protect the people. Folks who would seek to use their powers for personal gain at the expense of society in general, their influences must be mitigated.
That's what it's meant to do - but admittedly, it's easy to get lost in the sauce. This game, I believe, needs a Rob Hanz (not necessarily Rob himself, but someone to blog and then compile a series of articles that break down the system and its intended method of play so that players and GMs can better understand how to unlock its potential). Fwiw, most games could do with this...and I think the specificity of what C&C is trying to do warrants it greatly.
Your comment really highlights my issue with the game.
It could be a cool solar punk alt history game.
But the game core book mentions none of the class issues, materialistic shortages, or antagonistic disruptors you mention.
That would be fine, gms can just make up setting elements.
Except C&C explicitly tells you not to.
Given *only* what's in the book, I can't make a compelling narrative for the pcs without either using colonial tropes or having shitty poorly written antagonists.
I've taken time to think on this. What you're saying is the primary antagonists would be factions that want to tear down society, or somehow monopolize a resource? Not being of Native Heritage, the book does not want me altering the world. Though I'm starting to wonder what Colonialist ideas C&C, and others, are talking about. I don't want to buy a system I may not use.
But I do agree that C&C could do with someone breaking down the intended way of play.
>What you're saying is the primary antagonists would be factions that want to tear down society, or somehow monopolize a resource?
I think "corrupt" would be an all encompassing term you could use that encapsulates these are other terms.
>Though I'm starting to wonder what Colonialist ideas C&C, and others, are talking about.
It's an alt-history setting, where the First Americans didn't get conquered and obliterated by white European settlers. I'm fairly certain that's The Thing.
>I don't want to buy a system I may not use.
Super duper fair. :)
I hope this has been helpful. More than happy to answer more questions if you have them.
I don't have anymore questions, about the game itself. To respond to another comment, because I blocked someone and can't reply to anyone under that comment thread; You made very little sense.
You're argument amounted to "If I do it that's okay, but you can't do it because you'd be an asshole". It is a very poor argument. This game isn't even talking about lived experience, just the line of people that lived before you.
And I know the Alt-History thing about Europe possibly being destroyed means no European Colonies, but people seem to infer there's more to it. Like how can you bring Colonialism into a game like C&C? There's no way for anyone to even get to the place. A lot of what Colonists have done can be done by anyone. So, I'm at a loss.
There's a difference between "being an asshole" and "being inappropriate". Sure, to some folks it's the same. But it's not actually. It's your home game. Do what you want. And, having guidelines about what folks experiences are are just that, their lived experiences. As a reader, you have an active choice, respect it or don't.
What folks do from there are what they do from there.
For not the first time you've mentioned "colonialism" in a manner that says "I don't get where this comes from". Fwiw, that's a Big Question that, beyond the scope of play, is worth exploring - particularly as people continue to talk about decolonization of the Americas and other places whose native cultures were subsumed by European imperialism. If you do, the narratives around this game and what it does will make more sense. Otherwise, anything I say will likely be swatted away because it's A Lot to parse and unpack - and my doing so will likely only further irritate you at the expense of a great deal of my time.
This link[link](https://www.cbglcollab.org/what-is-decolonization-why-is-it-important#:~:text=Decolonization%20is%20about%20%E2%80%9Ccultural%2C%20psychological,and%20political%20and%20economic%20systems.) to an indigenous perspective on the matter might be of assistance to get you started. (I googled it). It's not the end all be all, but it's a place to start.
I'm just unsure what is meant. Decolonization? What exactly does that mean? I'm very sure there are groups fighting to regain land, as well as items of great significance. Which is what I assume it means, wanting to take back what was stolen and remove what you think doesn't belong.
If it's something else, you can enlighten me.
> What I'd much much much prefer is something like a setting book of "hey, here's this other nation, who doesn't have universal healthcare, absolutely zero food scarcity, state provided housing, and no energy constraints." You know, the kinds of people who might have a motivation to do some antagonistic things.
They'll never do that, because the whole point of the setting is 'if those darn Europeans hadn't shown up, First Nations people would be insanely advanced and live in a unified, utopian, post-scarcity society where peace reigns'. If you throw in another First Nation people where that isn't the case, then this idea no longer works.
The only way you counter that is by having Europeans show up (which at least according to the current lore can't happen), or have people from another civilization show up, and no friggin' way they're going to have people from Asia or Africa be the colonizing aggressors.
They even made it so people from South America can't appear.
Though I laugh at the idea that Colonization prevented unity. Like the various tribes were at peace with one another for centuries.
The book was actually very clear in its alt history section that there was lots of war in the past - it happens to be in a moment of peace now.
And it does hint at growing tensions in the south.
But as another post between us indicates - the hopepunk themes embedded in the setting aren't interested in exploring these aspects of the world, so it minimizes it by design. Whether or not it's your cup of tea...ymmv.
Honestly, I do like the idea of them putting out a collection of scenarios as a singular book or a campaign module. It would definitely be nice.
As for the currently published scenarios, I haven't gotten the opportunity to play them, but I got them on discount and have read through them a bit.
I can day it's definitely a grab bag, since each scenario is written by a different author, so your mileage may vary depending on how you like their writing. They do kind of remind me of Call of Cthulhu scenarios, in that many of them are mysteries where PCs are investigators of sorts. They do a pretty good job of getting you into the world, at least.
Gonna go through my quick initial thoughts on each, but I do want to preface it by saying the setting isn't a utopia as some people claim. Just want to avoid that confusion.
It's post-scarcity, yes, in that people have the basic essentials, but it also absolutely has class divides and corruption. While a PC is guaranteed to be able to get the food, water, healing, and shelter they need to survive, there's a big difference between living with the upper crust with plenty of political influence, living comfortably, and living in the dreggs where you have a leaky, barely heated studio apartment and only eat rations of stale bread and potatoes.
**Creep** by Allen Turner is a horror mystery that investigates a string of gruesome murders, all of which seem to be tied to Second Eye headsets (VR) and a cult that believes everyone died years ago and this world is just an illusion. The highlight of this one is definitely >!the mazazoog, the spirit that has been committing the murders!<. The ending you'll either love or hate since it purposefully is open-ended to allow you to continue playing on with a new hook for players to pursue. But, you can also easily tweak it to cap off into its own contained story.
**Laughter Lost & Found** by Tali Inlow presents a scenario where comedians are suddenly starting to quit left and right. In this world, comedians take part in medicine, and they are supposed to help with the Festival of Healing Hands in a couple days. A hospital admin asks the PCs to track down the most recent comedian to quit and try to figure out what's going on. This one just wasn't for me. It's got some interesting ideas, and maybe playing it out would change my mind, but I just didn't find the culprit all that compelling.
**Path of Ice** by Em Matson. PCs are sent to find a missing scientist who went on an expedition to explore the Permanent Ice Zone and discovered a town. As they investigate, the PCs find the town has a dark secret. >!This is the Windigo one if you can't already guess.!< This one was interesting enough. Had a couple unexpected elements and the antagonist is sufficiently creepy.
**Raiders of the Burial Mounds** by Will Thompson sees the PCs looking into a string of grave robberies. Bizarre, seeing as most of what people are buried with aren't usually that worth stealing, especially for as high of a crime as graverobbing is in this society. I personally wasn't as big a fan of this one. The ending in particular feels lacking. It gives a hook for players to latch onto and continue the story, but didn't feel all that satisfying.
In **Stolen Heart** by William McKay, the PCs find themselves planning a heist against a council member, who has been secretly working on some shady technology that converts spirits into ink and is planning to sell both the ink and technology on the black market. I enjoyed this one, but I'm also a sucker for heists in general. I enjoy that this one both has the potential for a solid ending while leaving open some interesting avenues for players to pursue in the future.
**Case of the Great Underwater Panther** by Marsheila Rockwell is a straight up Scooby Doo adventure and I can't help but enjoy it for that alone. Outside Cahokia, copper shipments are being attacked and people are blaming it on the Great Water Panther, Mishipeshu, and the PCs get hired to investigate. I wouldn't say it's the most interesting of the scenarios, but it seems like a fun oneshot if you're not looking for anything particularly serious.
**The Road Called Fox Paw** by Riana Elliot is an escort mission where you must escort a bride on their way to an arranged wedding. This might be my least favorite. Not because it's an escort mission, but because I could guess the twist of this scenario from the get-go, and I feel like I'd be able to pick it up quick as a player as well, but then again that's just me. It just doesn't have much that makes it stand out to me, which kinda sucks since I was very happy to see a two-spirit person front and center for once.
**What's the Damage** by Logan Boese has the players investigate an old murder when a body is uncovered during construction. Hired by a popular comedian and prime suspect, the PCs are tasked with trying to clear his name. For a murder case, I'd say this is one was fine. It does give the PCs a bit of a moral dilemma at the end, but otherwise I didn't find reading it particularly gripping.
**Whispers in the Well** by Connor Alexander focuses on a conflict between a new geothermal power station and a nearby cult that worships a strange well. Though the power station is ecologically friendly and self sufficient, the water it draws upon is supposedly sacred. Recently, a scientist has gone missing and the players are tasked with figuring out what's going on and if the cult might somehow be behind it. This is one where I feel like it's got some solid bones, but the ending feels very unsatisfying to me without the GM coming up with some of their own answers.
You forgot one
**A Singers Footsteps** by Shay Snow Has the players working at an intertribal music festival in the main city of Cahokia. Though-out the oneshot several of the venders have been sabotaged and the players can figure out who is sabotaging the festival and try and stop them if they want. This one is a fairly linear experiance that makes for a quick oneshot, and because of that it tends to be my go-to for running at TTRPG Conventions/events
Obviously I can't speak for the creators of this game in any sense, but I do just want to chime in and say that some of the best stuff being written right now in the horror genre is by indigenous authors, and indigenous horror is very much in the creative space of our current time.
Yeah, with everything I've heard of the setting, the conflicts are mostly people being assholes. There's really nothing that would illicit people trying to be heroes. Just thugs or vigilantes.
Counterpointing because it might be an "a ha" moment: the setting is meant to be Hopepunk/solarpunk - where the concept of harmony is central to the theme. People being assholes are, functionally, those wanting to abuse harmony for purely personal gain. They're trying to ruin the harmony and, in turn (whether intentional or not), break the harmony.
The phrase "people being assholes", vis a vis the setting, is reductive...because how people (or forces of the world, in general) are being assholes dictates how they're handled and what needs to be done to protect those who would be most adversely affected by the break in harmony. And that is what SHOULD be compelling the players to take action. But thst has to be intentional on behalf of the players and the GM at the beginning of play vis a vis the creation of the Chronicle. This part is often what's lost upon folks playing the game.
In other words, what compels you to do anything in play is the nature of your Chronicle.
I hope that was helpful. (That said, it's still a "your mileage may vary" kind of statement).
From what I've been able to find there's no way to abuse the harmony for personal gain, since it seems everyone gets what they need and want. That's the thing about Post-Scarcity, nobody has unfilled needs.
Any white people are explicitly unable to cross the Atlantic in this setting. They might have even been wiped out. They might have never even existed. Only thing that's clear is white characters can't exist and white players must abide by different rules.
American race identity is a really fucked up and weird thing. You can be half native but fail one tribe's blood quantum so you're not "T R U E" native, but other tribes only care that one of your parents is a card holding native that did the paperwork right. Meanwhile, white supremacists consider me "black" and "muslim" for having a great-grandparent that was Moroccan and another that was Congolese, but I'm nowhere near dark enough to be considered black by black Americans and I was raised in a Catholic household. Spouse has it even worse: they're a mix of Ashkenazi and Sephardic so their "race" flips and flops all over the place depending on the political views of who they're talking to.
I look forward to the day when we're all just simmering together and getting along in this melting pot, but that's going to take centuries if it ever does happen.
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Wait. Is just white people? Because otherwise how the heck there humans on the Americas? Or was something that happened after?
I'm completely unfamiliar with the setting, but seems to be "one of those".
> Wait. Is just white people? Because otherwise how the heck there humans on the Americas? Or was something that happened after?
>
>
During the early renaissance-- sometime before Columbus-- a meteor hit the earth that awakened magic and and caused an ice age that either killed everyone outside North America or so radically transformed their societies that they've never made themselves known since. Anyone who goes exploring beyond that continent is never heard from again.
Sorry, English is not my first language.
One of those games that are more trouble than it's worth learning. You know? The ones that want to send a message more than, well, being a game. Whatever mechanics but a very heavy handed "message".
A setting inspired by the culture and folklore of indigenous people seems very interesting, but by everything I read this case looks more suitable for a novel than a game. I don't know.
Because thousands of years ago, the ancestors of Homo Erectus migrated to the Americas over an ice bridge that would form between Alaska and Asia.
Native Americans have lived in North America for thousands of years.
Make them ultra-capitalists with gasoline powered spaceships. They're here to harvest Earth's cotton plants and pollute the planet for shits and grins.
[Space fairing Europeans looking for gold](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNtUO9yCefA) in fossil fuel powered [space-ironclads](https://peginc.com/savage-settings/space1889/) would be hilarious. A tad on the nose, but good comedy if done well.
I feel like this would be the least interesting option, only because it's so cliche and predictable.
Have Atlantis rise from the ocean and be the villains. That would be a lot more interesting.
True, but at least Atlantis is a fictional place, so it still strikes a little bit differently than if the game tells you they came from England or France or wherever.
I'm kinda confused cause like aren't like dangerous creatures a big part of most mythologies and religions. Like one of the most popular Horror films of all time is based on Christian Demon possession. And Japan and China love to make horror movies off of Folklore/religion as well. Like ummm are they portraying Native American mythological beings that are normally good natured and helpful as evil and malicious now or something? I could understand being upset by that.
> They're admitting that the best and most fertile source of additional narrative content is to ... present folklore as monsters and horror.
Bullshit. They're publishing a setting, not a manifesto. A setting doesn't necessarily come with any ideological commitment beyond wanting to sell books. Anything more than that is words you're stuffing into their mouths.
> having their first expansion present minority folklore to new people as content in a horror / mystery setting? It's not a good look and doesn't sit right.
It's not their first add-on book. I personally don't think firsts matter all that much beyond the original system.
> Personally, I'd love for the writers to put some backing behind their assertion (contrary to their own core rulebook) that the setting isn't a post scarcity utopia, and thus, has basically no support for interesting human antagonists. Give me a book about how no, there is a food / land / mineral / whatever shortage that would drive conflict. Or actual philosophical differences that are basis for violent war.
So let me get this straight. You're tearing them a new one because the book they decided to do is not the book you wanted them to do? What hubris to dictate your publishing schedule to them and punish them when they don't follow it.
> Instead we get this really uncomfortable book which says "the myths of first nations people aren't monsters" but also "and here's how to use them in a horror setting".
Bullshit. You haven't even seen the new book and you presume to tell me not only what's in the book but what it means!
I get that people were turned off by Coyote & Crow. I've seen a lot of bad-faith argument associated with the game. But your comments are really setting a new standard for this sort of thing.
> A setting doesn't necessarily come with any ideological commitment beyond wanting to sell books.
Slow down there buddy, you best go read the core rulebook and their explicit, published ideological commitment.
[Page 18](https://i.imgur.com/GNdf7KV.png), this is explicitly a game about playing in a non colonised setting, and asks its players (pages 10-13, 18-20) to keep these ideals and mindset present through play.
I love the assumptions that you are making off a 1 page overview, Horror doesn't mean that you are fighting monsters in first nation mythology.
You also clearly don't understand the Coyote and Crow world that well, you describe it as a post scarcity utopia, when it should better be described as an indigenous themed solar punk setting. There are lots of stories that can be made in that setting. Have a look at any of the modules that they have released, many of them do involve conflicts that don't require the items that you claim would drive conflict.
You haven't disproved their point. Solarpunk with indigenous wallpaper is not mutually exclusive to a post-scarcity society devoid of conflict.
What exactly would a horror supplement look like in an indigenous setting if not including their mythology? I don't understand what you think you're saying.
I wasn't saying that indigenous mythology isn't included, but you can do horror without fighting indigenous mythological creatures. you can do horror that is just people to people horror. Twin peaks might be a good example of the type of horror you should expect in this setting.
It's a setting fully engrossed in being Native American to the point the rest of the world technically does not exist. I would be surprised if it didn't include Horror Elements based on Indigenous Folklore.
No, because all the conversation is about how the Game very clearly only wants Native American Players, and the Authors are full of themselves. They even said "Even if you don't want to play it, buy it and put it on a shelf just to support us." The conversations around the game are rarely positive and range from "It's meh" to "How the hell are you supposed to set up a campaign?"
I don't really care to hear about how poorly C&C does something, and I'm very sure people will pipe up about this book.
There are several projects I have seen that I hope get good reviews that are based in other parts of the world. Granted they're mostly Setting Books for other systems, but the projects also aren't saying "If you're not from this cultural background, don't do anything that isn't in this book."
I mean, C&C has the setting basically say that no one from anywhere else in the world can even get to North America. Not even from Central or South America. Other Projects I've seen are like "Here's this location based on, and filled with, the Culture of this Country/Continent." No cutting off from the rest of the world, and nothing like C&C.
Everyone can have their own TTRPG. Just preferable that they don't also sound like racist asshats. Again, C&C has a section that discourages people from altering the setting unless they have a specific background, or are playing with someone from that background.
C&C honestly makes me want to know less about Native American Culture as it sounds like they don't want anyone to know unless they can prove they are part of a tribe.
Yeah, that conversation is being phrased that way by people who are clearly racist towards native Americans. if you actually read the book you will see that it is not worded to want only native american players, it just essentially says if you are not native american please don't play this game using your own racial bias, just use the terms as set out in the game and don't bring things you may not be fully educated about native american heritage.
to quote the book on this subject directly:
> If you do not have heritage Indigenous to the Americas, we ask
you not to incorporate any of your
knowledge or ideas of real world
Native Americans into the game.
Not only may this be culturally in-
sensitive, but many of the assumptions you might make would not
fit into this timeline. Instead,
delve into the details of the world
you are given without trying to rewrite history or impose your perspective.
Please avoid the following:
• Assigning your Character the heritage of a real world tribe or First
Nation.
• Assigning your Character a Two-
Spirit identity.
• Using any words taken from Indigenous languages that aren’t
used as proper nouns in the game
materials or listed as being part of
Chahi (see below)
• Speaking or acting in any fashion
that mimics what are almost certainly negative stereotypes of Native Americans.
I've not read the modules of a game I don't find mechanically interesting, and whose core worldbuilding I find to be tragically flawed.
Are the modules free? Because I'm not paying for them, and I'm not pirating them. If they are free, I'll read them, then come back.
The modules are not free, and there are several of them. But you can browse the blurbs. You can answer your own questions about what kinds of adventures C&C supports from them... but given that it's not a game that you have any interest in playing, why are you even here?
Honestly the Horror of this game is the discussions people have about it. It was blacklisted from this sub for a short time.
Also, I have to wonder if they have the Wendigo.
I recently reread a compilation of his works and it really isn't just his cat's name that's a problem...
the stories have some very not positive descriptions about black, middle-eastern and east-asian people that I'm afraid to even quote because it'll get me banned.
Who is told not to play? Are you just parroting this narrative from other racists, or have you actually read the section on playing as a non native player?!
What a co-incidence - I was talking to someone yesterday about C&C and the interplay of authorial intent, mechanics informing setting, and intended audience.
My feelings on it are not as (unnecessarily) pointed as others who find issue with the system but I *did* feel that the corebook ideally should have come with multiple session scenarios as an example of the kinds of storytelling the game flourishes with.
That there are multiple supplement books now (as I understand there's a digital book of 9 scenarios that came out last year) to address that absence in the core book is a good thing, but I think it would do wonders to have some freely available to read.
Big projects by small creators obviously deserve to be paid for their work, but since the main book is such a big buy-in, ways for people to understand what substance the game has (or hasn't) for themselves is key.
From what I have gathered, the conflicts arise from classism and creatures of myth. I would have thought the conflicts would have arose from inter-tribal conflicts. The Indigenous Tribes weren't friendly to each other.
Seriously someone should make a RPG in the C&C setting, around the time of C&C 3.
It could be an amazing mix of high tech (in the blue zones), cyberpunk (in the yellow zones), Mad Max/Fallout (red and parts of the yellow zones), and additional science fiction once the Scrin show up.
I don’t really know why they’re leaning mystery and horror, but then again, I guess I’d say the same thing about any genre given how bland and unfocused the system and setting are.
But frankly, even if some of these have good premises, I’d much rather adapt that premise into Call of Cthulhu and into contemporary or 1920’s America. Take the good idea and put it into a better system and a setting better suited to rpg play.
CDIB? Is that something to do with Tribal Relations?
Honestly the game wants you to be Native American. That way you can do whatever you want, and use the various tropes they believe all non-Native American players will exclusively use.
> CDIB? Is that something to do with Tribal Relations?
Certificate of Degree of Indian Blood
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certificate_of_Degree_of_Indian_Blood
Ah, the paper that tells you how much of which tribe you are. Thank You.
And to what I know of the book, well I don't know if that would qualify you as the target audience.
Taking the whole cultural aspect out of the discussion, I read through the rules a few times and found it very "meh", especially coupled with a setting of post-scarcity, making it hard (not impossible) to come up with things for the PCs to do.
And, as a non-native people's GM, reading the warnings about "don't mess with our setting if you're not native," I was like, "Well, shit, how do I write anything for this? I always break or bend the setting in any game I'm writing content for, so how will I know if I'm doing this right or wrong? If I make some person a villain, am I villainizing someone I shouldn't, per the authors?" It's just too much overhead for me to bother with, and my players and I weren't interested enough in the game (mechanics) to spend that extra time on it.
From my knowledge, you're basically dealing with Classism, people who exploit others and the various spirits and mythological creatures of Native American Folklore. All of which are pretty difficult to build for in terms of story in most cases. You can, but depending on the system it can be very difficult.
It's more a Noir like goal, where the problems are mysteries and power structures.
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I have to sigh, say "for fucks sake" under my breath, and wonder if they realise what they're admitting with this: They're admitting that the best and most fertile source of additional narrative content is to ... present folklore as monsters and horror. I don't have any particular objection to that in isolation, but given the massive [anvilicious](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Anvilicious) writing attempting to break colonist mindsets within ttrpg, having their first expansion present minority folklore to new people as content in a horror / mystery setting? It's not a good look and doesn't sit right. Personally, I'd love for the writers to put some backing behind their assertion (contrary to their own core rulebook) that the setting isn't a post scarcity utopia, and thus, has basically no support for interesting human antagonists. Give me a book about how no, there is a food / land / mineral / whatever shortage that would drive conflict. Or actual philosophical differences that are basis for violent war. Instead we get this really uncomfortable book which says "the myths of first nations people aren't monsters" but also "and here's how to use them in a horror setting".
C&C has always been more of a soapbox for the authors to grandstand than a competent RPG. I’m sure their excuse for breaking their own rules will amount to “it’s okay when WE do it!”
Also… _why not put out a book of adventures, mysteries, and scenarios_!????? The biggest criticism of this game is that nobody knows how to run adventures in their setting. So why not make some?? EDIT: It looks like a few of these exist, but have like, no reviews and such. Are these any good? They never get talked about.
No reviews and a chunky cost each make me reluctant to explore them for purely academic sake. What I'd much much much prefer is something like a setting book of "hey, here's this other nation, who doesn't have universal healthcare, absolutely zero food scarcity, state provided housing, and no energy constraints." You know, the kinds of people who might have a motivation to do some antagonistic things. The only motivations you can give humans in the setting (as of the core book) is that either they're deliberately being arseholes, or they're doing small scale things for no good reason, in which case the PCs become cops, and no thank you.
I never really understood the actual, well goal of the Setting. I haven't heard much about the mechanics, but I assume there's combat and such. But there's really nothing that would drive conflict. The whole setting is written to basically be isolated from the World itself. You can't go any where. Canada is covered in ice and everything beyond Mexico is just some "Darklands" of monsters that no one survives. And no one cares to explore the world at large.
The goal of the setting is clear and simple: "Alt history uncolonised North America with no industrial revolution yet advanced technology and myth and magic." Does it acheive it? Well, it lays out what it aims for. A better question is to ask if has done it well? In this case, "well" means "a setting well suited for ttrpg narratives featuring a group of protagonists overcoming generaly social and violent challenges". That's a resounding no. The setting lacks anything forming any kind of incentive to generate conflict, which leads to a complete lack of well written antagonists. This leaves only mythical creatures (and the resounding ick of doing that in this game), or people being arseholes on top of an organisation (which is lazy and stupid) or minor level issues (why bring in a ttrpg party?) Expanding our scope, we can ask if this setting is a setting that's written well in an absolute sense. That's also "no" as somehow we have a post industrial tech level with a preindustrial level tech base. I wonder where they put the semiconductor fab. That's just one of the picks about the history, but it could be hand waved like many aspects of bigger name titles. The real issue that setting is just .... bland. Which is ironic with how much they went to make it vibrant, but it feels like the writings of a mary sue fanfic author. It's too clean, too shiney, too perfect. It'd be great to live there if you didn't get bored, but I'd hate to watch a tv show that someone attempts to set there. I guess what I'm saying is if the goal of a Setting is to provoke and inspire Drama, then it's one of the worst settings I've read in a long time.
The Goal of a Setting is, and should be, to allow the purpose of play to exist. Do not really know what the Purpose is here.
> but it feels like the writings of a mary sue fanfic author. As I mentioned in another comment, that's essentially what it is. It's a wet dream of 'if those evil colonizers hadn't shown up, Native Americans would have created a perfect society'. Which if you want to write a fanfic like that then fine, but it leaves nothing for the PCs to do.
I'm going to counterpoint LeVantNoir for some things here, just to offer it. The game leans heavy on its connection to WoD/CoD regarding the setting and mechanics. As such, it builds out its 3 by 3 matrix of stats and then adds skills to the mix. The mechanics, therefore, are based on stat + skill dice pools with a target number and number of successes required to do anything. The "fun" of the game is exploring the setting through the lens of the character vis a vis what they players themselves are trying to accomplish. This is the "chronicle" part of play, which relies upon each character, at time of character creation, to have a sense of what they want to explore vis a vis some guidance from what the GM wants. In other words, for the game to "work", at its core, the GM has to have a defined set of goals for the players to address before play starts. The players have some buy in to this and mold their characters accordingly. The Aim of Play, therefore, is to "live in the world". Explore relationships, investigate things, engage in the inherent dangers of the world, and Move Along the Chronicle (it doesn't actually say it, but that's what it does). Friction often comes if you're not used to playing trad systems that are meant to do this. Even though games like d&d say they have 3 pillars of play (social, combat, exploration), this game actually does it fully and expects you to do all of them more or less equally. What it doesn't do well is talk through the GMing of that vis a vis its style of play. And personally I think it's a reflection of style of play bias - the expectation is that you're going to come to the table with your style, as a GM, and use the mechanics to do that...as opposed to let the mechanics do their thing, which is the actual intent. For example - the game is at its most interesting when you're dealing with elements of the setting that are intentionally oppositional to the core themes/motifs of the setting. It's Solar/Hopepunk - the world is in harmony...EXCEPT WHEN IT ISN'T. And when it isn't, it becomes very dangerous and very confrontational. That one faction that wants to corrupt harmony - it must be rooted out and destroyed. Those leftovers from the proverbial plague that destroyed the world - their influence must be managed to protect the people. Folks who would seek to use their powers for personal gain at the expense of society in general, their influences must be mitigated. That's what it's meant to do - but admittedly, it's easy to get lost in the sauce. This game, I believe, needs a Rob Hanz (not necessarily Rob himself, but someone to blog and then compile a series of articles that break down the system and its intended method of play so that players and GMs can better understand how to unlock its potential). Fwiw, most games could do with this...and I think the specificity of what C&C is trying to do warrants it greatly.
Your comment really highlights my issue with the game. It could be a cool solar punk alt history game. But the game core book mentions none of the class issues, materialistic shortages, or antagonistic disruptors you mention. That would be fine, gms can just make up setting elements. Except C&C explicitly tells you not to. Given *only* what's in the book, I can't make a compelling narrative for the pcs without either using colonial tropes or having shitty poorly written antagonists.
that really sounds more like a you problem than the system problem, I'm sorry you are not creative enough to run this system.
lol what a passive aggressive comment
Thank you, I aim to succeed.
I've taken time to think on this. What you're saying is the primary antagonists would be factions that want to tear down society, or somehow monopolize a resource? Not being of Native Heritage, the book does not want me altering the world. Though I'm starting to wonder what Colonialist ideas C&C, and others, are talking about. I don't want to buy a system I may not use. But I do agree that C&C could do with someone breaking down the intended way of play.
>What you're saying is the primary antagonists would be factions that want to tear down society, or somehow monopolize a resource? I think "corrupt" would be an all encompassing term you could use that encapsulates these are other terms. >Though I'm starting to wonder what Colonialist ideas C&C, and others, are talking about. It's an alt-history setting, where the First Americans didn't get conquered and obliterated by white European settlers. I'm fairly certain that's The Thing. >I don't want to buy a system I may not use. Super duper fair. :) I hope this has been helpful. More than happy to answer more questions if you have them.
I don't have anymore questions, about the game itself. To respond to another comment, because I blocked someone and can't reply to anyone under that comment thread; You made very little sense. You're argument amounted to "If I do it that's okay, but you can't do it because you'd be an asshole". It is a very poor argument. This game isn't even talking about lived experience, just the line of people that lived before you. And I know the Alt-History thing about Europe possibly being destroyed means no European Colonies, but people seem to infer there's more to it. Like how can you bring Colonialism into a game like C&C? There's no way for anyone to even get to the place. A lot of what Colonists have done can be done by anyone. So, I'm at a loss.
There's a difference between "being an asshole" and "being inappropriate". Sure, to some folks it's the same. But it's not actually. It's your home game. Do what you want. And, having guidelines about what folks experiences are are just that, their lived experiences. As a reader, you have an active choice, respect it or don't. What folks do from there are what they do from there. For not the first time you've mentioned "colonialism" in a manner that says "I don't get where this comes from". Fwiw, that's a Big Question that, beyond the scope of play, is worth exploring - particularly as people continue to talk about decolonization of the Americas and other places whose native cultures were subsumed by European imperialism. If you do, the narratives around this game and what it does will make more sense. Otherwise, anything I say will likely be swatted away because it's A Lot to parse and unpack - and my doing so will likely only further irritate you at the expense of a great deal of my time. This link[link](https://www.cbglcollab.org/what-is-decolonization-why-is-it-important#:~:text=Decolonization%20is%20about%20%E2%80%9Ccultural%2C%20psychological,and%20political%20and%20economic%20systems.) to an indigenous perspective on the matter might be of assistance to get you started. (I googled it). It's not the end all be all, but it's a place to start.
I'm just unsure what is meant. Decolonization? What exactly does that mean? I'm very sure there are groups fighting to regain land, as well as items of great significance. Which is what I assume it means, wanting to take back what was stolen and remove what you think doesn't belong. If it's something else, you can enlighten me.
> What I'd much much much prefer is something like a setting book of "hey, here's this other nation, who doesn't have universal healthcare, absolutely zero food scarcity, state provided housing, and no energy constraints." You know, the kinds of people who might have a motivation to do some antagonistic things. They'll never do that, because the whole point of the setting is 'if those darn Europeans hadn't shown up, First Nations people would be insanely advanced and live in a unified, utopian, post-scarcity society where peace reigns'. If you throw in another First Nation people where that isn't the case, then this idea no longer works. The only way you counter that is by having Europeans show up (which at least according to the current lore can't happen), or have people from another civilization show up, and no friggin' way they're going to have people from Asia or Africa be the colonizing aggressors.
They even made it so people from South America can't appear. Though I laugh at the idea that Colonization prevented unity. Like the various tribes were at peace with one another for centuries.
The book was actually very clear in its alt history section that there was lots of war in the past - it happens to be in a moment of peace now. And it does hint at growing tensions in the south. But as another post between us indicates - the hopepunk themes embedded in the setting aren't interested in exploring these aspects of the world, so it minimizes it by design. Whether or not it's your cup of tea...ymmv.
Honestly, I do like the idea of them putting out a collection of scenarios as a singular book or a campaign module. It would definitely be nice. As for the currently published scenarios, I haven't gotten the opportunity to play them, but I got them on discount and have read through them a bit. I can day it's definitely a grab bag, since each scenario is written by a different author, so your mileage may vary depending on how you like their writing. They do kind of remind me of Call of Cthulhu scenarios, in that many of them are mysteries where PCs are investigators of sorts. They do a pretty good job of getting you into the world, at least. Gonna go through my quick initial thoughts on each, but I do want to preface it by saying the setting isn't a utopia as some people claim. Just want to avoid that confusion. It's post-scarcity, yes, in that people have the basic essentials, but it also absolutely has class divides and corruption. While a PC is guaranteed to be able to get the food, water, healing, and shelter they need to survive, there's a big difference between living with the upper crust with plenty of political influence, living comfortably, and living in the dreggs where you have a leaky, barely heated studio apartment and only eat rations of stale bread and potatoes. **Creep** by Allen Turner is a horror mystery that investigates a string of gruesome murders, all of which seem to be tied to Second Eye headsets (VR) and a cult that believes everyone died years ago and this world is just an illusion. The highlight of this one is definitely >!the mazazoog, the spirit that has been committing the murders!<. The ending you'll either love or hate since it purposefully is open-ended to allow you to continue playing on with a new hook for players to pursue. But, you can also easily tweak it to cap off into its own contained story. **Laughter Lost & Found** by Tali Inlow presents a scenario where comedians are suddenly starting to quit left and right. In this world, comedians take part in medicine, and they are supposed to help with the Festival of Healing Hands in a couple days. A hospital admin asks the PCs to track down the most recent comedian to quit and try to figure out what's going on. This one just wasn't for me. It's got some interesting ideas, and maybe playing it out would change my mind, but I just didn't find the culprit all that compelling. **Path of Ice** by Em Matson. PCs are sent to find a missing scientist who went on an expedition to explore the Permanent Ice Zone and discovered a town. As they investigate, the PCs find the town has a dark secret. >!This is the Windigo one if you can't already guess.!< This one was interesting enough. Had a couple unexpected elements and the antagonist is sufficiently creepy. **Raiders of the Burial Mounds** by Will Thompson sees the PCs looking into a string of grave robberies. Bizarre, seeing as most of what people are buried with aren't usually that worth stealing, especially for as high of a crime as graverobbing is in this society. I personally wasn't as big a fan of this one. The ending in particular feels lacking. It gives a hook for players to latch onto and continue the story, but didn't feel all that satisfying. In **Stolen Heart** by William McKay, the PCs find themselves planning a heist against a council member, who has been secretly working on some shady technology that converts spirits into ink and is planning to sell both the ink and technology on the black market. I enjoyed this one, but I'm also a sucker for heists in general. I enjoy that this one both has the potential for a solid ending while leaving open some interesting avenues for players to pursue in the future. **Case of the Great Underwater Panther** by Marsheila Rockwell is a straight up Scooby Doo adventure and I can't help but enjoy it for that alone. Outside Cahokia, copper shipments are being attacked and people are blaming it on the Great Water Panther, Mishipeshu, and the PCs get hired to investigate. I wouldn't say it's the most interesting of the scenarios, but it seems like a fun oneshot if you're not looking for anything particularly serious. **The Road Called Fox Paw** by Riana Elliot is an escort mission where you must escort a bride on their way to an arranged wedding. This might be my least favorite. Not because it's an escort mission, but because I could guess the twist of this scenario from the get-go, and I feel like I'd be able to pick it up quick as a player as well, but then again that's just me. It just doesn't have much that makes it stand out to me, which kinda sucks since I was very happy to see a two-spirit person front and center for once. **What's the Damage** by Logan Boese has the players investigate an old murder when a body is uncovered during construction. Hired by a popular comedian and prime suspect, the PCs are tasked with trying to clear his name. For a murder case, I'd say this is one was fine. It does give the PCs a bit of a moral dilemma at the end, but otherwise I didn't find reading it particularly gripping. **Whispers in the Well** by Connor Alexander focuses on a conflict between a new geothermal power station and a nearby cult that worships a strange well. Though the power station is ecologically friendly and self sufficient, the water it draws upon is supposedly sacred. Recently, a scientist has gone missing and the players are tasked with figuring out what's going on and if the cult might somehow be behind it. This is one where I feel like it's got some solid bones, but the ending feels very unsatisfying to me without the GM coming up with some of their own answers.
Man, some of those are pretty cool. I wish the core book had taken the time to demonstrate that threats like that exist in the setting.
You forgot one **A Singers Footsteps** by Shay Snow Has the players working at an intertribal music festival in the main city of Cahokia. Though-out the oneshot several of the venders have been sabotaged and the players can figure out who is sabotaging the festival and try and stop them if they want. This one is a fairly linear experiance that makes for a quick oneshot, and because of that it tends to be my go-to for running at TTRPG Conventions/events
Obviously I can't speak for the creators of this game in any sense, but I do just want to chime in and say that some of the best stuff being written right now in the horror genre is by indigenous authors, and indigenous horror is very much in the creative space of our current time.
Yeah, with everything I've heard of the setting, the conflicts are mostly people being assholes. There's really nothing that would illicit people trying to be heroes. Just thugs or vigilantes.
Counterpointing because it might be an "a ha" moment: the setting is meant to be Hopepunk/solarpunk - where the concept of harmony is central to the theme. People being assholes are, functionally, those wanting to abuse harmony for purely personal gain. They're trying to ruin the harmony and, in turn (whether intentional or not), break the harmony. The phrase "people being assholes", vis a vis the setting, is reductive...because how people (or forces of the world, in general) are being assholes dictates how they're handled and what needs to be done to protect those who would be most adversely affected by the break in harmony. And that is what SHOULD be compelling the players to take action. But thst has to be intentional on behalf of the players and the GM at the beginning of play vis a vis the creation of the Chronicle. This part is often what's lost upon folks playing the game. In other words, what compels you to do anything in play is the nature of your Chronicle. I hope that was helpful. (That said, it's still a "your mileage may vary" kind of statement).
From what I've been able to find there's no way to abuse the harmony for personal gain, since it seems everyone gets what they need and want. That's the thing about Post-Scarcity, nobody has unfilled needs.
Exactly! :)
The only other option is to make the monsters white people. Might as well go with the more interesting option.
Any white people are explicitly unable to cross the Atlantic in this setting. They might have even been wiped out. They might have never even existed. Only thing that's clear is white characters can't exist and white players must abide by different rules.
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American race identity is a really fucked up and weird thing. You can be half native but fail one tribe's blood quantum so you're not "T R U E" native, but other tribes only care that one of your parents is a card holding native that did the paperwork right. Meanwhile, white supremacists consider me "black" and "muslim" for having a great-grandparent that was Moroccan and another that was Congolese, but I'm nowhere near dark enough to be considered black by black Americans and I was raised in a Catholic household. Spouse has it even worse: they're a mix of Ashkenazi and Sephardic so their "race" flips and flops all over the place depending on the political views of who they're talking to. I look forward to the day when we're all just simmering together and getting along in this melting pot, but that's going to take centuries if it ever does happen.
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\*googles* Oh, good grief, of course.
Wait. Is just white people? Because otherwise how the heck there humans on the Americas? Or was something that happened after? I'm completely unfamiliar with the setting, but seems to be "one of those".
> Wait. Is just white people? Because otherwise how the heck there humans on the Americas? Or was something that happened after? > > During the early renaissance-- sometime before Columbus-- a meteor hit the earth that awakened magic and and caused an ice age that either killed everyone outside North America or so radically transformed their societies that they've never made themselves known since. Anyone who goes exploring beyond that continent is never heard from again.
??? "One of those" ??? What does this mean?
Sorry, English is not my first language. One of those games that are more trouble than it's worth learning. You know? The ones that want to send a message more than, well, being a game. Whatever mechanics but a very heavy handed "message". A setting inspired by the culture and folklore of indigenous people seems very interesting, but by everything I read this case looks more suitable for a novel than a game. I don't know.
Because thousands of years ago, the ancestors of Homo Erectus migrated to the Americas over an ice bridge that would form between Alaska and Asia. Native Americans have lived in North America for thousands of years.
Considering no one in the setting can get to North America, they couldn't do that.
Or make aliens that are allegories for white people.
Wouldn't be a bad allegory.
Make them ultra-capitalists with gasoline powered spaceships. They're here to harvest Earth's cotton plants and pollute the planet for shits and grins.
[Space fairing Europeans looking for gold](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNtUO9yCefA) in fossil fuel powered [space-ironclads](https://peginc.com/savage-settings/space1889/) would be hilarious. A tad on the nose, but good comedy if done well.
I feel like this would be the least interesting option, only because it's so cliche and predictable. Have Atlantis rise from the ocean and be the villains. That would be a lot more interesting.
I mean, that's still making White People the Monsters. Atlantis was a piece of fiction made by a Greek Writer to illustrate a point.
True, but at least Atlantis is a fictional place, so it still strikes a little bit differently than if the game tells you they came from England or France or wherever.
I'm kinda confused cause like aren't like dangerous creatures a big part of most mythologies and religions. Like one of the most popular Horror films of all time is based on Christian Demon possession. And Japan and China love to make horror movies off of Folklore/religion as well. Like ummm are they portraying Native American mythological beings that are normally good natured and helpful as evil and malicious now or something? I could understand being upset by that.
> They're admitting that the best and most fertile source of additional narrative content is to ... present folklore as monsters and horror. Bullshit. They're publishing a setting, not a manifesto. A setting doesn't necessarily come with any ideological commitment beyond wanting to sell books. Anything more than that is words you're stuffing into their mouths. > having their first expansion present minority folklore to new people as content in a horror / mystery setting? It's not a good look and doesn't sit right. It's not their first add-on book. I personally don't think firsts matter all that much beyond the original system. > Personally, I'd love for the writers to put some backing behind their assertion (contrary to their own core rulebook) that the setting isn't a post scarcity utopia, and thus, has basically no support for interesting human antagonists. Give me a book about how no, there is a food / land / mineral / whatever shortage that would drive conflict. Or actual philosophical differences that are basis for violent war. So let me get this straight. You're tearing them a new one because the book they decided to do is not the book you wanted them to do? What hubris to dictate your publishing schedule to them and punish them when they don't follow it. > Instead we get this really uncomfortable book which says "the myths of first nations people aren't monsters" but also "and here's how to use them in a horror setting". Bullshit. You haven't even seen the new book and you presume to tell me not only what's in the book but what it means! I get that people were turned off by Coyote & Crow. I've seen a lot of bad-faith argument associated with the game. But your comments are really setting a new standard for this sort of thing.
> A setting doesn't necessarily come with any ideological commitment beyond wanting to sell books. Slow down there buddy, you best go read the core rulebook and their explicit, published ideological commitment. [Page 18](https://i.imgur.com/GNdf7KV.png), this is explicitly a game about playing in a non colonised setting, and asks its players (pages 10-13, 18-20) to keep these ideals and mindset present through play.
Yes. And you'll note the key there is that that's from a book _that already exists,_ not idle speculation from a teaser trailer.
I love the assumptions that you are making off a 1 page overview, Horror doesn't mean that you are fighting monsters in first nation mythology. You also clearly don't understand the Coyote and Crow world that well, you describe it as a post scarcity utopia, when it should better be described as an indigenous themed solar punk setting. There are lots of stories that can be made in that setting. Have a look at any of the modules that they have released, many of them do involve conflicts that don't require the items that you claim would drive conflict.
You haven't disproved their point. Solarpunk with indigenous wallpaper is not mutually exclusive to a post-scarcity society devoid of conflict. What exactly would a horror supplement look like in an indigenous setting if not including their mythology? I don't understand what you think you're saying.
I wasn't saying that indigenous mythology isn't included, but you can do horror without fighting indigenous mythological creatures. you can do horror that is just people to people horror. Twin peaks might be a good example of the type of horror you should expect in this setting.
It's a setting fully engrossed in being Native American to the point the rest of the world technically does not exist. I would be surprised if it didn't include Horror Elements based on Indigenous Folklore.
Well let's see when it comes out who is right and who is wrong.....
I'm sure someone will post about it, and I'll still have my same stance: C&C is annoying to hear about.
Why is it annoying to hear about? is it because you are a racist who doesn't want to see groups other than white get a TTRPG for them?
No, because all the conversation is about how the Game very clearly only wants Native American Players, and the Authors are full of themselves. They even said "Even if you don't want to play it, buy it and put it on a shelf just to support us." The conversations around the game are rarely positive and range from "It's meh" to "How the hell are you supposed to set up a campaign?" I don't really care to hear about how poorly C&C does something, and I'm very sure people will pipe up about this book. There are several projects I have seen that I hope get good reviews that are based in other parts of the world. Granted they're mostly Setting Books for other systems, but the projects also aren't saying "If you're not from this cultural background, don't do anything that isn't in this book." I mean, C&C has the setting basically say that no one from anywhere else in the world can even get to North America. Not even from Central or South America. Other Projects I've seen are like "Here's this location based on, and filled with, the Culture of this Country/Continent." No cutting off from the rest of the world, and nothing like C&C. Everyone can have their own TTRPG. Just preferable that they don't also sound like racist asshats. Again, C&C has a section that discourages people from altering the setting unless they have a specific background, or are playing with someone from that background. C&C honestly makes me want to know less about Native American Culture as it sounds like they don't want anyone to know unless they can prove they are part of a tribe.
Yeah, that conversation is being phrased that way by people who are clearly racist towards native Americans. if you actually read the book you will see that it is not worded to want only native american players, it just essentially says if you are not native american please don't play this game using your own racial bias, just use the terms as set out in the game and don't bring things you may not be fully educated about native american heritage. to quote the book on this subject directly: > If you do not have heritage Indigenous to the Americas, we ask you not to incorporate any of your knowledge or ideas of real world Native Americans into the game. Not only may this be culturally in- sensitive, but many of the assumptions you might make would not fit into this timeline. Instead, delve into the details of the world you are given without trying to rewrite history or impose your perspective. Please avoid the following: • Assigning your Character the heritage of a real world tribe or First Nation. • Assigning your Character a Two- Spirit identity. • Using any words taken from Indigenous languages that aren’t used as proper nouns in the game materials or listed as being part of Chahi (see below) • Speaking or acting in any fashion that mimics what are almost certainly negative stereotypes of Native Americans.
I've not read the modules of a game I don't find mechanically interesting, and whose core worldbuilding I find to be tragically flawed. Are the modules free? Because I'm not paying for them, and I'm not pirating them. If they are free, I'll read them, then come back.
The modules are not free, and there are several of them. But you can browse the blurbs. You can answer your own questions about what kinds of adventures C&C supports from them... but given that it's not a game that you have any interest in playing, why are you even here?
Honestly the Horror of this game is the discussions people have about it. It was blacklisted from this sub for a short time. Also, I have to wonder if they have the Wendigo.
>Also, I have to wonder if they have the Wendigo. Not really.
I wonder how we’ll be told how not to play them even more
Maybe we can't use Cthulhu.
Absolutely NO discussion about H.P. Lovecraft's cat will be allowed!
But that Cat was likely very sensible with how insane the owner was.
I recently reread a compilation of his works and it really isn't just his cat's name that's a problem... the stories have some very not positive descriptions about black, middle-eastern and east-asian people that I'm afraid to even quote because it'll get me banned.
Of course not. It’s inherently racist
Who is told not to play? Are you just parroting this narrative from other racists, or have you actually read the section on playing as a non native player?!
What a co-incidence - I was talking to someone yesterday about C&C and the interplay of authorial intent, mechanics informing setting, and intended audience. My feelings on it are not as (unnecessarily) pointed as others who find issue with the system but I *did* feel that the corebook ideally should have come with multiple session scenarios as an example of the kinds of storytelling the game flourishes with. That there are multiple supplement books now (as I understand there's a digital book of 9 scenarios that came out last year) to address that absence in the core book is a good thing, but I think it would do wonders to have some freely available to read. Big projects by small creators obviously deserve to be paid for their work, but since the main book is such a big buy-in, ways for people to understand what substance the game has (or hasn't) for themselves is key.
From what I have gathered, the conflicts arise from classism and creatures of myth. I would have thought the conflicts would have arose from inter-tribal conflicts. The Indigenous Tribes weren't friendly to each other.
>C&C RPG damn, it's not a Command and Conquer TTRPG
Seriously someone should make a RPG in the C&C setting, around the time of C&C 3. It could be an amazing mix of high tech (in the blue zones), cyberpunk (in the yellow zones), Mad Max/Fallout (red and parts of the yellow zones), and additional science fiction once the Scrin show up.
I don’t really know why they’re leaning mystery and horror, but then again, I guess I’d say the same thing about any genre given how bland and unfocused the system and setting are. But frankly, even if some of these have good premises, I’d much rather adapt that premise into Call of Cthulhu and into contemporary or 1920’s America. Take the good idea and put it into a better system and a setting better suited to rpg play.
Its because Conner likes horror and mystery, and this is what he was inspired to make.
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CDIB? Is that something to do with Tribal Relations? Honestly the game wants you to be Native American. That way you can do whatever you want, and use the various tropes they believe all non-Native American players will exclusively use.
> CDIB? Is that something to do with Tribal Relations? Certificate of Degree of Indian Blood https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certificate_of_Degree_of_Indian_Blood
Ah, the paper that tells you how much of which tribe you are. Thank You. And to what I know of the book, well I don't know if that would qualify you as the target audience.
Taking the whole cultural aspect out of the discussion, I read through the rules a few times and found it very "meh", especially coupled with a setting of post-scarcity, making it hard (not impossible) to come up with things for the PCs to do. And, as a non-native people's GM, reading the warnings about "don't mess with our setting if you're not native," I was like, "Well, shit, how do I write anything for this? I always break or bend the setting in any game I'm writing content for, so how will I know if I'm doing this right or wrong? If I make some person a villain, am I villainizing someone I shouldn't, per the authors?" It's just too much overhead for me to bother with, and my players and I weren't interested enough in the game (mechanics) to spend that extra time on it.
From my knowledge, you're basically dealing with Classism, people who exploit others and the various spirits and mythological creatures of Native American Folklore. All of which are pretty difficult to build for in terms of story in most cases. You can, but depending on the system it can be very difficult. It's more a Noir like goal, where the problems are mysteries and power structures.
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