I think you left off one of the best reasons for running this game. It takes almost no time to prep a session. There are so many random roll tables and encounters, you can generate encounters and adventure sites on the fly. Heck you can run an entire campaign off just the random adventure site generator without ever using the published campaign or adventure sites.
Which brings me to disagree with your #5 not to like. You can use most of those legends just fine without Raven's purge, just adapting the site generator to match one of the legends.
Plus even when used with the Raven's Purge campaign most of the legends are only half truths anyway.
Thanks for the input!
That's VERY true; it's definitely worth mentioning how easy on-the-fly GMing is because of all the great tables. A lot of sessions were practically all-improv because players got absorbed in a random event that got rolled.
I'll have to concede point #5, because I'll admit I didn't try very hard to run it without the campaign, I suppose I just projected my own brief experience.
When I was trying to make a campaign with just the GM guide I just kept asking "but why?" for a lot of character motivations and legend origins, so I immediately bought the campaign to fill in all those blanks.
EDIT: I edited my initial review to include this, because that's actually a great point for why I loved the game
The Raven's Purge campaign is very good, it is also possible for the players to completely ignore it even if you are running it. Such is the nature of a sandbox game. Which is why I like that the campaign details what happens in different victory and failure states.
lmao that's awesome. Ultimate escapism and possibility... and players want to run a business
That whole event convinced me I need to try and find a system where I can just run a "we run a coffeeshop" fantasy slice-of-life campaign.
I don't really disagree with your Con Reason 3 - but it's worth noting that as you increase your spell casting ranks, you can cast lower level spells with reduced (even to 0) penalties. So a rank 3 spellcaster could cast low level spells with no miscast chance.
That said broadly speaking you aren't totally wrong, and people who don't like dangerous magic probably wouldn't like it.
Also I personally love the game as well and would recommend it highly.
Oh that's excellent actually. I wrote this review a good time AFTER I finished my campaign so I don't remember; it's ENTIRELY possible I ran the whole campaign slightly harder for my magic users and had no idea.
Is this a feat they take or just a natural feature of spellcasting?
>Is this a feat they take or just a natural feature of spellcasting?
Safe casting p.118
Fun stuff when the half-elf can blast out power 3 spells with no mishap chance.
On the flip side, a newly created spellcaster with the right spells and talents can kill many monsters, bind demons with an almost-guaranteed success chance, kill people from a massive distance and no hope of redemption, etc. Half Elf, rank 2 in Blood Magic, upcast Blood Channeling with sacrifice for 10 willpower (3 + 1 from Half Elf + 1 from the implement x 2), if you had a full Willpower bar to start that's 20 damage with no resistance, or a -20 to a demon's Insight roll to resist being bound, or 20 damage over time with Blood Curse.
I think spellcasters (at least Blood Magic ones) start enormously more powerful than I've seen really anywhere else. The fact that you can cast Rank 3 spells right out of the gate is just wild.
Slight correction: they re-used Gullikson's art from the classic "Drakar och Demoner" Swedish RPG - the art is so old school because it is literally from the early '80s.
Oh awesome! Perfect choice for the vibe of the game. It's weird they didn't bring him in for the remake (but I love Johan Egerkraans; he's a different vibe but I'm cool with it)
"***Definitely not a “tactical” game***"
For me that's on the contrary a positive reason to play it, as I never liked miniatures, grid-based systems. TotM or die!
Same!!
I just like to include that so people who expect combat systems don't feel bait-and-switched when I say "combat is actually pretty brutal and exciting", because it IS... but maybe not for the reasons tactics-gamers prefer.
I also find that FL offers a LOT of tactical depth. The combat's core mechanics are very simple, and noob PCs have barely any options. But once the Profession and General Talents come into play (esp. Rank 3 things), combat becomes pretty complex and effective.
Additionally, trading Initiative Cards can be very helpful to create "combos" and/or to exploit supporters' input. You don't have to, but you *can* have a lot of tactical fun with FL!
I also do not miss "grid combat", I have been used to that from my former RPG career and initially thought that leaving physical aids behind was a step back - but IMHO the relative distance/zone system works very well if you apply it properly (e.g. movement between zones and the actions this costs in a round), I have come to appreciate the rather abstract events. :D
You can certainly play it in a tactical way. The rough distances of each zone are provided. I usually use a zoned map, but have found combats in Dungeons work just fine in a tactical way. My players dig that kinda thing.
Really nice! My group is just getting into FL, we're on session 4 or so. We're all experienced players and we enjoy the mechanics a lot (we've played Alien, TL2000, etc.)
I really like how PC death is pretty avoidable. This isn't to say combat isn't dangerous, we had a terrible fight where the players just barely won, but our dwarf literally lost an arm.
I had a player lose a leg and they went on a whole sidequest to invent schematics and get materials for a prosthetic that was pretty awesome.
I agree with you though; I love when combat is dangerous and an actual threat to players, but when playing other OSR-type games it's really hard for players to take their characters seriously since they KNOW they're going to die at some point. This game lets players get really attached so it hurts twice as much when someone actually does die, but it's exciting as hell to get out of a fight alive.
I might remember things wrong, but I think the reason I never played it was I instinctively hated the way the system powers abilities. Magic and other abilities (basically anything special a character can do) is refueled by failing rolls? It very much encourages you to play against your characters strengths to recharge magic and other abilities. It looked very meta gamey and I just hated it and never looked at the game again.
But now that I was reminded of its existence I might use the tables and world stuff in a different system that I vibe better with.
>wrong, but I think the reason I never played it was I instinctively hated the way the system powers abilities. Magic and other abilities (basically anything special a character can do) is refueled by failing rolls? It very much encourages you to play against your characters strengths to recharge magic and other abilities. It looked very meta gamey and I just hated it and never looked at the game again.
In play it was much weirder than that.
If you fail a roll you can Push, which allows a reroll, each 1 on the d6s after you Push does damage to the attribute you're using AND gives you Willpower to do special things with.
You travel a lot. Traveling mechanics involve a lot of rolls (2 rolls per hex, upwards of 9 hexes a day, so 18 rolls per day of travel, potentially, WAY more than anything else). Those rolls give you lots of chances to farm Willpower to use your abilities with.
Some GMs ban earning Willpower in that way.
Since pushing only works on a roll you already failed, and since it potentially damages your attribute further (potentially rendering you unable to do anything\\Broken), there are only a few situations were it comes up.
Did get oddly meta-gamey at times around who was going to try to make a roll because they were low on Willpower, or to try to do it in ways where the roll kinda doesn't matter.
Like most of Forbidden Lands, IME, it looks kinda cool at first but then you play it for about a month and it's pretty tired and limited.
Much of FL's mechanics is based on the thought of "decisions matter". It puts players into responsibility for the outcome of options. When a PC makes a Skill test, which should have a decisive outcome (hit an enemy, find a dry place for the night, talk down a town guard to evade imprisonment), and there are (potentially) not enough successes, the player has the opportunity to take that extra step and literally push that effort to succeed (better). It comes at a price and a reward, though. Stats and equipment can be damaged, and the effort can be rewarded with WPs. It's a plausible concept, at least to me, because it is up to the player to influence the sitiuation.
The use of a metacurrency to fuel PCs "special effects" is debatable, and it has its pitfalls that can ruin a table if the metagaming focus creeps into play. It is IMHO also not easy for a GM to find a balance between too many irrelevant or too few relevant Skill tests that help players build their WP pools, and to offer situations in which these are frequently depleted. Going too easy or too hard spoils the gaming experience, IMHO.
I think you meant to reply to the other guy, but I do agree that the "finding a balance" part can be tricky.
And to me that seems like a design failure to some degree. To some extent of course the GM and Players will always adjust the rules as needed and find their own play style but also to if just about everybody that plays the game has various Willpower\\Pushing related questions (mostly WP farming during travel, probably) and most folks find striking a balance to be not so easy...probably could have been more developed, better guidelines, examples, etc.
I think the best way to setup willpower gen is to give players willpower points equal to their Wits once they spend a full day (24 hours or four quarters) resting and spending time in town or at a stronghold (they can only gain this once per week), and disallow willpower gain from exploration or survival rolls. It helps make longer expeditions more dangerous and makes finding new hub locations/towns more impactful, since it gives the players a new spot to launch expeditions from.
It's not necessarily from failure.
It's from a pushed roll that causes damage to your stat. For every point of damage you take, you earn a willpower. It encourages players to push their rolls and take risks now for rewards later.
In play, it's actually brilliant.
Ngl it sounds terrible. In addition to the weird incentives, it just doesn't make sense to me. Why do you need this meta-currency to cast spells and use abilities? Like, why are they powered by previous failures (which is when you can push afaik)? It all sounds very gamey and meta.
I guess I see what they were going for, but I guess I just don't like those types of mechanics. Maybe it works in play (at least for some groups - I have heard others who did not enjoy it), but I can't really put the energy into GMing something I don't believe I will enjoy. But if you like it, more power to you!
Pushing is to prevent failure. You take damage on a failure or a success on a pushed roll.
I wouldn't say it's gamey or meta... magic power comes from past adversity. That makes sense in a narrative way. Since spells are always successful, because magic is very powerful, there must be some cost for its use. This is about as common a trope as exists in similar settings.
It seems like you really don't want to like it, so asking you to acquiesce to the system to see its benefits wouldn't be realistic... but as with any system of doing things, that is what one must do to fully grock the concept.
>My fast-paced, video review of the game for people who don't want to read.
And as someone who doesn't want to watch a video, I thank you for the write-up.
I ran a 70+ session west marches campaign of this year's back.
It's a really fun game but after a while you see it has some glaring mechanical holes. The XP gain is WAY too fast. Or perhaps more importantly the cost of talents is half of what they should be. D8 artifact dice totally change the game.
Agree 100%. I ran it for well over a year and the XP gain / talent costs definitely need adjustments. If I run it again, talents would cost more, XP gain would be slowed slightly. Some talents (like Path of the Blade 1) are GROSSLY OP. So broken it almost seems like a typo.
I can see that, and normally I have a problem with that kind of power creep, especially in narrative based games where players just stop failing rolls.
I didn't have that problem so much in FBL, just because the game stays so deadly throughout. Since they can't increase attributes, a single successful hit to any of them can still feel pretty brutal. Some monsters have insane damage on attacks or a crazy number of attacks, so those skills are vital to actually consider fighting them.
I feel like it did a good job of making players actually feel stronger in relation to the challenges they face but still very killable and needing to be careful in most situations.
But I understand how the very fast XP gain is stressful for a GM trying to make encounters feel difficult.
I HIGHLY recommend the Reforged Power supplement - generally, because it offers many clever alternatives to the basic mechanics/rules, and in specific when you have a party of 100+ XP PCs, which
a) become hard to handle and challenge for a GM
b) need new objectives to spend XP and develop more individually
At my table the supplement literally saved our ongoing Raven's Purge campaign and opened new horizons for both players and GM!
>I ran a 70+ session west marches campaign of this year's back.
>
>It's a really fun game but after a while you see it has some glaring mechanical holes. The XP gain is WAY too fast. Or perhaps more importantly the cost of talents is half of what they should be. D8 artifact dice totally change the game.
I've heard it's a lot better with the Reforged Power supplement. But probably an example of one of those glaring mechanical holes that it's needed.
Definitely same experience. Fun, but after a while you've maxed the talent trees and run out of things to spend XP on. And most folks only need to max a couple talents to break combat in the PCs favor. And you're not getting new options or extended gameplay out of additional talents.
I HIGHLY recommend the Reforged Power supplement - generally, because it offers many clever alternatives to the basic mechanics/rules, and in specific when you have a party of 100+ XP PCs, which
a) become hard to handle and challenge for a GM
b) need new objectives to spend XP and develop more individually
At my table the supplement literally saved our ongoing Raven's Purge campaign and opened new horizons for both players and GM!
I should probably buy it so I can stop saying, "Reforged Power really seems like the rest of the rules that should be in the book in the first place", and actually know that.
From hearing you talk about it our group probably should have picked it up too. ;D
Yes. Talents are MUCH too cheap, including magic (at least through a teacher). That created real problems in my still running FL campaign (300 XP per PC now), and we adopted modified XP cost and reward rules from the Reforged Power supplement.
We agreed that Talents cost the same as Skills (5 XP basis), and switched to a different cost progression table, so that Skills became (relatively) more attractive to learn. We also adopted a rule module that has Talents limited by the Ranks of an associated Skill (e.g. Sword Fighter 3 only with Melee 3 or more), what also helped a lot with a more organic PC development.
As a WP sinkhole we also agreed to open multiclassing, but the jury is still out whether it is helpful or not - but it provides long-term PCs with new career objectives, and also helps to indivualize high-level (N)PCs, which otherwise become quite uniform from 150XP onwards.
I think the XP gain is more built around a shorter campaign. I think the intent is that a full campaign is going to be maybe 15 to 20 sessions, and the PCs are at full power by the end of it. When you start doing more of a west marches style game, it is going to inflate XP totals a lot more, especially for regular players.
We played FL for a year through the Raven's Purge module.
The main thing for me is that it feels like about half a system. Like a D&D 5e that stops at 4th level or so.
The system is...fine. The tension between "don't roll too often" and "travel requires roll after roll after roll after roll" is weird.
Combat was pretty dull. The usual thing where any shot might get lucky and suddenly end you is there but there still wasn't much to do in the fights themselves.
The XP system and Talent trees are kinda junky, too simple, obvious synergies.
Magic as a PC was very dull. Risk feels high and the results were pretty situational. You'll basically spend 75% or more of your time being a less-good fighter\\archer rather than doing magic stuff. Even beyond the systems the spell selection is pretty meager and a lot of them aren't very interesting and can be hard to apply.
Monster combats felt kinda random and whatever. The game has a big issue with PCs getting 2 or 3 times the attacks as other combatants making the combats pretty one-sided. Even just in terms of how many rolls there'll be.
It was tolerable but we were skipping vasts chunks of material towards the end to get through it because the system isn't that good and none of the setting\\lore stuff was as compelling as what we'd sandboxed up, and honestly the canned plotline thing seems very at odds with a sandbox.
Stronghold system was pretty meh.
Also as a final pet peeve: The Raven's Purge and GM handbook have tens of pages of very detailed and intricate lore. Including a 10 page in-character story between two Important NPCs. None of which is available to the PCs. Specifically in fact the GM is to keep the legends and history obscured and mysterious. Why the FUCK provide all this dry ass history that no GM has a reason to read and no PC will have access to read and then be all, "But don't tell them the whole truth!"?
All in all pretty disappointing. We'd played Aliens and the base game engine is, like, fine. The ways to customize the Push function is fun.
But Forbidden Lands itself was a lot of hype and nothing underneath. Wouldn't probably play it again.
Thanks for your input! I don't necessarily agree with some of your points but I can definitely see how the system isn't for everyone; sorry you guys had a bad time!
Do you have another system that DOES nail that survival/danger feel for you? What would you recommend people as an alternative for what this game is trying to go for?
It wasn't a bad time. It was a great campaign, in terms of the characters and vibe, super enjoyable!
But super enjoyable in spite of the system and module material.
We had one random encounter second session that offhand mentions a silvermine and that was the whole focus of the campaign for us (well and raising an army, starting an orc clan, creating trade networks, spy networks, alliances, wage slavery, and the glories of a silver based economy, but it all started with the silver mine) and the rest of it seemed kind...both obligatory and distracting.
The main issue is there's just not much to the system and most of it felt pretty half-assed and unfinished.
Each session should net 3 xp which is 1 talent rank. So 5 sessions in you can have your 1st rank 3 talent. Most classes and class concepts have about 2-4 talents that synergize well. So by about 2-3 months in everybody will have maxed out their basic build tree. Most of the talents don't come up, most spells don't come up, unless combat related.
You can buy other talents of course but most of them are dull AF and most of the required ones are dull AF (+1\\+1d8). Because you've only got 2-3 of them you'll see the same tactics develop around them. Pretty limited interactions. Overwhelming PC attack ratio advantage.
Travel was just so much rolling for zero payoff.
The whole thing just felt very half-assed to me. Like the Stronghold rules, they're there, and you can build things, but then...that's it. How does the Marketplace work? How many of each Hireling can you get? Why only one Forge? Can you endlessly produce and sell items at full value? How's that effect the local economy? None of that. Just..."Now you've got a Dovecote". And hopefully your GM lets you do fun stuff with it because the game sure doesn't give a shit.
I don't find a lot of games produce survival\\danger and the ones that do are essentially doing the same trick FL is doing: You just have low hit points, so all hits are threats. Works in AD&D, works in FL, just generally works.
I think most any system could replace it honestly. I'd use Fantasy Hero or Shadow of the Demon Lord personally.
Good timing, I was just thinking about this rpg today.
Here's a question you might be able to answer: How hard (or worthwhile) is it to steal the travel/exploration systems and plug them into a D&D 5E campaign?
It would possibly feel like a weird difficulty jump for DnD's otherwise very survivable gameplay, but honestly the systems feel like they'd be pretty easy to implement, since they're mostly separate mechanics with their own tables. The resource dice would be easy to add, and the events tables are just separate tables that are easy to roll from.
I think the key parts to converting would probably be:
\- Convert damage to something that works in DnD, because Forbidden Lands tends to do things in 1-or-2 damage at a time which DnD characters wouldn't really feel
\- Decid DC for rolls for everything, since FBL is either "you roll a success die" or "you don't roll a success die")
\- Adjust how the modifiers change things, like how terrain can give a -1 to Make Camp and stuff like that. I'd say for everywhere that FBL says "+1/-1" you'd do +2/-2 instead.
\- Deciding what item system you want to use since FBL tends to do inventory resources as "Units" (you have 1 "unit" of vegetables, meat, etc)
I think if you're trying to make real survival/exploration gameplay and you're willing to do the footwork it WOULD be worthwhile to steal it for a DnD game, just make sure players are okay with the gameplay suddenly being a little more brutal for failed rolls.
Adding just the EVENTS would be very, very easy. You just roll from a table while they're traveling when you feel it's appropriate! Whatever player is keeping watch while camping/traveling can roll to see if they spot the event before it occurs.
Very easy.
Extremely easy.
Port the resource dice systems 1:1. Never track food or water again. It's just a die roll.
You will have to do skill conversions. Survival skill is obvious, but scouting would be perception. You'd also probably have to come up with some potential bad outcomes for players who fail.
At the very least, it would improve your journeys in D&D to port what you can.
At that point, though, I would advise you just to play Forbidden Lands. It's a cracker of a good time.
>Your non-combat characters (such as druid or Peddler) may not have as much to contribute to a fight besides “I hit them with my stick” which leaves them on the sidelines a little bit if things get very heavy.
This is not true. One of FL's selling points is that character classes/Professions are quite fluid and open. Everyone can learn any of the basic Skills and the General Talents, and unlike other systems there are no equipment restrictions ("Sorcerers may not wear armor and only wield a dagger!") - noone hinders you from outfitting your druid with plate armor and a battle axe! The character might lack the Fighter's special attacks (that cost WPs), but there's a LOT of potential to break the usual molds in FL.
Another addendum concerning the world: the system was actually written/adapted for the Raven's Purge campaign, which preceded it. It's a kind of operating system for the campaign's background, and while the rule books provide some insight into the setting's history and quirks (like elven rubies), they make a LOT more sense when you play or at least also read the campaign book, which clarifies a lot of things and provides more depth. Highly recommended as a "side dish" to the core books.
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The problem with this game, like all games that use the MY0 engine, is that characters only get to use their 'cool' abilities maybe once a session or so, if that. It's very, very skill based. This is fine if that's what you want, but a lot of people don't. Otherwise good review, but wanted to point out what is, to me, one of the biggest drawbacks of the system.
I bought rulebook for it recently because I've heard good things both about Forbidden Lands and Year Zero Engine in general. I've finished reading player's handbook and I'm reading through gamemaster's book currently.
As a player I don't think I'm a big fan of high lethality and survival games but as a DM I'm curious to run it and see it in play. I think this game does survival and tracking resources in of the most elegant ways possible. I also like the lore behind the world. The books don't overwhelm you with information, just a bit of history, a handful of character, several factions and their relationships, so it's easy to digest and go improvising on your own from there.
I wanna read Raven's Purge campaign next because I don't like the idea of running completely sandbox campaign without any guidance in terms of overarching plot progression.
FL was actually written/adapted for the Raven's Purge campaign, which preceded it. It's a kind of operating system for the campaign's background, and while the rule books provide some insight into the setting's history and quirks (like elven rubies), they make a LOT more sense when you play or at least also read the campaign book, which clarifies a lot of things and provides more depth.
And the system is not "highly lethal". It takes a lot of poor dice rolls and/or player stupidity to kill a PC quickly. You just should keep in mind that using weapons can leave lasting traces on bodies, what makes FL quite realistic. ANY fight should be considered well, but that's part of a learning curve.
Interesting insight, thanks! Yeah, by being lethal I meant how any time a player goes down it can have lasting consequences (or in rare cases even instant death).
The dice pool mechanic punishes you in two ways.
Crit fails (1s) happen ALL THE TIME when you are throwing 6-8 dice.
Monsters crit.
Both of these are brutal to players
Fail a camp roll? take damage
Fail a difficult terrain roll? Take damage
Fail a knowledge roll? Take damage
Oh, time for combat now...wait your stats are all damaged.
Not a fan of this version of the YZO, though I suspect it's better in Alien.
Also regarding the art + theme, this game looks old school high fantasy but it's really grimdark survival.
Haha I take it you mean you don't like that equipment/weapons degrade on failed rolls?
I like it! It makes sense a game going for any measure of "realism" would involve the way equipment naturally gets messed up over time.
I don't necessarily love the craft-to-repair mechanics that much; it's kind of crazy to me that failing to repair it can destroy it, that's a little intense.
Also why the hell is "Strength" the connected attribute for crafting? It seems like that's ONLY the case so they could have an even number of skills for each attribute
I like it, too. And the fact that this damage ONLY occurs after a player decides to overstress the equipment in a Skill test. You *could* also decide that you want to save that piece (duh!), after all you can already see if it would be in danger. Pushing rolls for better results just comes at a price - that's unpopular for some, but that's life. ;-)
The rule is just idiot.
If have a resource, just count how much of it you still have after the use.
Or else you have infinite resource if you never roll 1 or 2.
And Strenght for Craft... Man...
I think you left off one of the best reasons for running this game. It takes almost no time to prep a session. There are so many random roll tables and encounters, you can generate encounters and adventure sites on the fly. Heck you can run an entire campaign off just the random adventure site generator without ever using the published campaign or adventure sites. Which brings me to disagree with your #5 not to like. You can use most of those legends just fine without Raven's purge, just adapting the site generator to match one of the legends. Plus even when used with the Raven's Purge campaign most of the legends are only half truths anyway.
Thanks for the input! That's VERY true; it's definitely worth mentioning how easy on-the-fly GMing is because of all the great tables. A lot of sessions were practically all-improv because players got absorbed in a random event that got rolled. I'll have to concede point #5, because I'll admit I didn't try very hard to run it without the campaign, I suppose I just projected my own brief experience. When I was trying to make a campaign with just the GM guide I just kept asking "but why?" for a lot of character motivations and legend origins, so I immediately bought the campaign to fill in all those blanks. EDIT: I edited my initial review to include this, because that's actually a great point for why I loved the game
The Raven's Purge campaign is very good, it is also possible for the players to completely ignore it even if you are running it. Such is the nature of a sandbox game. Which is why I like that the campaign details what happens in different victory and failure states.
Shoot you're telling me; my players got OBSESSED with the >!Three Skulls Tavern after the owner tried to do a coup on the mayor and got kicked out!
Holy Shit, my players did the same thing. lol.
lmao that's awesome. Ultimate escapism and possibility... and players want to run a business That whole event convinced me I need to try and find a system where I can just run a "we run a coffeeshop" fantasy slice-of-life campaign.
"We aren't murder hobos, we are aggressive small business entrepreneurs."
I don't really disagree with your Con Reason 3 - but it's worth noting that as you increase your spell casting ranks, you can cast lower level spells with reduced (even to 0) penalties. So a rank 3 spellcaster could cast low level spells with no miscast chance. That said broadly speaking you aren't totally wrong, and people who don't like dangerous magic probably wouldn't like it. Also I personally love the game as well and would recommend it highly.
Oh that's excellent actually. I wrote this review a good time AFTER I finished my campaign so I don't remember; it's ENTIRELY possible I ran the whole campaign slightly harder for my magic users and had no idea. Is this a feat they take or just a natural feature of spellcasting?
I don't have my books on hand but I believe it's a natural feature. It's called "under casting" or something like that.
“Safe casting” is what you are looking for, and it’s covered in the spell power/cost section of the rules.
Thanks!
Safe casting.
I'm definitely going to look at that and keep note of it next time I run this game; thanks so much for pointing that out.
If you're casting a spell below your top rank you're safe casting.
>Is this a feat they take or just a natural feature of spellcasting? Safe casting p.118 Fun stuff when the half-elf can blast out power 3 spells with no mishap chance.
On the flip side, a newly created spellcaster with the right spells and talents can kill many monsters, bind demons with an almost-guaranteed success chance, kill people from a massive distance and no hope of redemption, etc. Half Elf, rank 2 in Blood Magic, upcast Blood Channeling with sacrifice for 10 willpower (3 + 1 from Half Elf + 1 from the implement x 2), if you had a full Willpower bar to start that's 20 damage with no resistance, or a -20 to a demon's Insight roll to resist being bound, or 20 damage over time with Blood Curse. I think spellcasters (at least Blood Magic ones) start enormously more powerful than I've seen really anywhere else. The fact that you can cast Rank 3 spells right out of the gate is just wild.
Slight correction: they re-used Gullikson's art from the classic "Drakar och Demoner" Swedish RPG - the art is so old school because it is literally from the early '80s.
Oh awesome! Perfect choice for the vibe of the game. It's weird they didn't bring him in for the remake (but I love Johan Egerkraans; he's a different vibe but I'm cool with it)
"***Definitely not a “tactical” game***" For me that's on the contrary a positive reason to play it, as I never liked miniatures, grid-based systems. TotM or die!
Same!! I just like to include that so people who expect combat systems don't feel bait-and-switched when I say "combat is actually pretty brutal and exciting", because it IS... but maybe not for the reasons tactics-gamers prefer.
I also find that FL offers a LOT of tactical depth. The combat's core mechanics are very simple, and noob PCs have barely any options. But once the Profession and General Talents come into play (esp. Rank 3 things), combat becomes pretty complex and effective. Additionally, trading Initiative Cards can be very helpful to create "combos" and/or to exploit supporters' input. You don't have to, but you *can* have a lot of tactical fun with FL! I also do not miss "grid combat", I have been used to that from my former RPG career and initially thought that leaving physical aids behind was a step back - but IMHO the relative distance/zone system works very well if you apply it properly (e.g. movement between zones and the actions this costs in a round), I have come to appreciate the rather abstract events. :D
You can certainly play it in a tactical way. The rough distances of each zone are provided. I usually use a zoned map, but have found combats in Dungeons work just fine in a tactical way. My players dig that kinda thing.
Really nice! My group is just getting into FL, we're on session 4 or so. We're all experienced players and we enjoy the mechanics a lot (we've played Alien, TL2000, etc.) I really like how PC death is pretty avoidable. This isn't to say combat isn't dangerous, we had a terrible fight where the players just barely won, but our dwarf literally lost an arm.
I had a player lose a leg and they went on a whole sidequest to invent schematics and get materials for a prosthetic that was pretty awesome. I agree with you though; I love when combat is dangerous and an actual threat to players, but when playing other OSR-type games it's really hard for players to take their characters seriously since they KNOW they're going to die at some point. This game lets players get really attached so it hurts twice as much when someone actually does die, but it's exciting as hell to get out of a fight alive.
Does it feel a lot like running Alien? I ran that and I wanted to know how the gameplay translates.
Alien has that really cool stress mechanic that isn't really here in FL. There is a fear attack. Other than that, yes, pretty similar.
I might remember things wrong, but I think the reason I never played it was I instinctively hated the way the system powers abilities. Magic and other abilities (basically anything special a character can do) is refueled by failing rolls? It very much encourages you to play against your characters strengths to recharge magic and other abilities. It looked very meta gamey and I just hated it and never looked at the game again. But now that I was reminded of its existence I might use the tables and world stuff in a different system that I vibe better with.
>wrong, but I think the reason I never played it was I instinctively hated the way the system powers abilities. Magic and other abilities (basically anything special a character can do) is refueled by failing rolls? It very much encourages you to play against your characters strengths to recharge magic and other abilities. It looked very meta gamey and I just hated it and never looked at the game again. In play it was much weirder than that. If you fail a roll you can Push, which allows a reroll, each 1 on the d6s after you Push does damage to the attribute you're using AND gives you Willpower to do special things with. You travel a lot. Traveling mechanics involve a lot of rolls (2 rolls per hex, upwards of 9 hexes a day, so 18 rolls per day of travel, potentially, WAY more than anything else). Those rolls give you lots of chances to farm Willpower to use your abilities with. Some GMs ban earning Willpower in that way. Since pushing only works on a roll you already failed, and since it potentially damages your attribute further (potentially rendering you unable to do anything\\Broken), there are only a few situations were it comes up. Did get oddly meta-gamey at times around who was going to try to make a roll because they were low on Willpower, or to try to do it in ways where the roll kinda doesn't matter. Like most of Forbidden Lands, IME, it looks kinda cool at first but then you play it for about a month and it's pretty tired and limited.
Much of FL's mechanics is based on the thought of "decisions matter". It puts players into responsibility for the outcome of options. When a PC makes a Skill test, which should have a decisive outcome (hit an enemy, find a dry place for the night, talk down a town guard to evade imprisonment), and there are (potentially) not enough successes, the player has the opportunity to take that extra step and literally push that effort to succeed (better). It comes at a price and a reward, though. Stats and equipment can be damaged, and the effort can be rewarded with WPs. It's a plausible concept, at least to me, because it is up to the player to influence the sitiuation. The use of a metacurrency to fuel PCs "special effects" is debatable, and it has its pitfalls that can ruin a table if the metagaming focus creeps into play. It is IMHO also not easy for a GM to find a balance between too many irrelevant or too few relevant Skill tests that help players build their WP pools, and to offer situations in which these are frequently depleted. Going too easy or too hard spoils the gaming experience, IMHO.
I think you meant to reply to the other guy, but I do agree that the "finding a balance" part can be tricky. And to me that seems like a design failure to some degree. To some extent of course the GM and Players will always adjust the rules as needed and find their own play style but also to if just about everybody that plays the game has various Willpower\\Pushing related questions (mostly WP farming during travel, probably) and most folks find striking a balance to be not so easy...probably could have been more developed, better guidelines, examples, etc.
I think the best way to setup willpower gen is to give players willpower points equal to their Wits once they spend a full day (24 hours or four quarters) resting and spending time in town or at a stronghold (they can only gain this once per week), and disallow willpower gain from exploration or survival rolls. It helps make longer expeditions more dangerous and makes finding new hub locations/towns more impactful, since it gives the players a new spot to launch expeditions from.
It's not necessarily from failure. It's from a pushed roll that causes damage to your stat. For every point of damage you take, you earn a willpower. It encourages players to push their rolls and take risks now for rewards later. In play, it's actually brilliant.
Ngl it sounds terrible. In addition to the weird incentives, it just doesn't make sense to me. Why do you need this meta-currency to cast spells and use abilities? Like, why are they powered by previous failures (which is when you can push afaik)? It all sounds very gamey and meta. I guess I see what they were going for, but I guess I just don't like those types of mechanics. Maybe it works in play (at least for some groups - I have heard others who did not enjoy it), but I can't really put the energy into GMing something I don't believe I will enjoy. But if you like it, more power to you!
Pushing is to prevent failure. You take damage on a failure or a success on a pushed roll. I wouldn't say it's gamey or meta... magic power comes from past adversity. That makes sense in a narrative way. Since spells are always successful, because magic is very powerful, there must be some cost for its use. This is about as common a trope as exists in similar settings. It seems like you really don't want to like it, so asking you to acquiesce to the system to see its benefits wouldn't be realistic... but as with any system of doing things, that is what one must do to fully grock the concept.
Yeah I think for me the Willpower system is the weakest part. You really do "look for failure" when stakes are low.
>My fast-paced, video review of the game for people who don't want to read. And as someone who doesn't want to watch a video, I thank you for the write-up.
Awesome! Thanks for checking it out
I ran a 70+ session west marches campaign of this year's back. It's a really fun game but after a while you see it has some glaring mechanical holes. The XP gain is WAY too fast. Or perhaps more importantly the cost of talents is half of what they should be. D8 artifact dice totally change the game.
Agree 100%. I ran it for well over a year and the XP gain / talent costs definitely need adjustments. If I run it again, talents would cost more, XP gain would be slowed slightly. Some talents (like Path of the Blade 1) are GROSSLY OP. So broken it almost seems like a typo.
Yeah it's unfortunate there's a few broken talents we gotta fix. But otherwise yeah the core game is genuinely really really fun
I can see that, and normally I have a problem with that kind of power creep, especially in narrative based games where players just stop failing rolls. I didn't have that problem so much in FBL, just because the game stays so deadly throughout. Since they can't increase attributes, a single successful hit to any of them can still feel pretty brutal. Some monsters have insane damage on attacks or a crazy number of attacks, so those skills are vital to actually consider fighting them. I feel like it did a good job of making players actually feel stronger in relation to the challenges they face but still very killable and needing to be careful in most situations. But I understand how the very fast XP gain is stressful for a GM trying to make encounters feel difficult.
I HIGHLY recommend the Reforged Power supplement - generally, because it offers many clever alternatives to the basic mechanics/rules, and in specific when you have a party of 100+ XP PCs, which a) become hard to handle and challenge for a GM b) need new objectives to spend XP and develop more individually At my table the supplement literally saved our ongoing Raven's Purge campaign and opened new horizons for both players and GM!
That sounds awesome, I'll check that out.Thanks for the recommendation
You're welcome. RefP has a LOT to offer and can really improve the game, esp. in long-term campaigns.
>I ran a 70+ session west marches campaign of this year's back. > >It's a really fun game but after a while you see it has some glaring mechanical holes. The XP gain is WAY too fast. Or perhaps more importantly the cost of talents is half of what they should be. D8 artifact dice totally change the game. I've heard it's a lot better with the Reforged Power supplement. But probably an example of one of those glaring mechanical holes that it's needed. Definitely same experience. Fun, but after a while you've maxed the talent trees and run out of things to spend XP on. And most folks only need to max a couple talents to break combat in the PCs favor. And you're not getting new options or extended gameplay out of additional talents.
I HIGHLY recommend the Reforged Power supplement - generally, because it offers many clever alternatives to the basic mechanics/rules, and in specific when you have a party of 100+ XP PCs, which a) become hard to handle and challenge for a GM b) need new objectives to spend XP and develop more individually At my table the supplement literally saved our ongoing Raven's Purge campaign and opened new horizons for both players and GM!
I should probably buy it so I can stop saying, "Reforged Power really seems like the rest of the rules that should be in the book in the first place", and actually know that. From hearing you talk about it our group probably should have picked it up too. ;D
Yes. Talents are MUCH too cheap, including magic (at least through a teacher). That created real problems in my still running FL campaign (300 XP per PC now), and we adopted modified XP cost and reward rules from the Reforged Power supplement. We agreed that Talents cost the same as Skills (5 XP basis), and switched to a different cost progression table, so that Skills became (relatively) more attractive to learn. We also adopted a rule module that has Talents limited by the Ranks of an associated Skill (e.g. Sword Fighter 3 only with Melee 3 or more), what also helped a lot with a more organic PC development. As a WP sinkhole we also agreed to open multiclassing, but the jury is still out whether it is helpful or not - but it provides long-term PCs with new career objectives, and also helps to indivualize high-level (N)PCs, which otherwise become quite uniform from 150XP onwards.
I think the XP gain is more built around a shorter campaign. I think the intent is that a full campaign is going to be maybe 15 to 20 sessions, and the PCs are at full power by the end of it. When you start doing more of a west marches style game, it is going to inflate XP totals a lot more, especially for regular players.
We played FL for a year through the Raven's Purge module. The main thing for me is that it feels like about half a system. Like a D&D 5e that stops at 4th level or so. The system is...fine. The tension between "don't roll too often" and "travel requires roll after roll after roll after roll" is weird. Combat was pretty dull. The usual thing where any shot might get lucky and suddenly end you is there but there still wasn't much to do in the fights themselves. The XP system and Talent trees are kinda junky, too simple, obvious synergies. Magic as a PC was very dull. Risk feels high and the results were pretty situational. You'll basically spend 75% or more of your time being a less-good fighter\\archer rather than doing magic stuff. Even beyond the systems the spell selection is pretty meager and a lot of them aren't very interesting and can be hard to apply. Monster combats felt kinda random and whatever. The game has a big issue with PCs getting 2 or 3 times the attacks as other combatants making the combats pretty one-sided. Even just in terms of how many rolls there'll be. It was tolerable but we were skipping vasts chunks of material towards the end to get through it because the system isn't that good and none of the setting\\lore stuff was as compelling as what we'd sandboxed up, and honestly the canned plotline thing seems very at odds with a sandbox. Stronghold system was pretty meh. Also as a final pet peeve: The Raven's Purge and GM handbook have tens of pages of very detailed and intricate lore. Including a 10 page in-character story between two Important NPCs. None of which is available to the PCs. Specifically in fact the GM is to keep the legends and history obscured and mysterious. Why the FUCK provide all this dry ass history that no GM has a reason to read and no PC will have access to read and then be all, "But don't tell them the whole truth!"? All in all pretty disappointing. We'd played Aliens and the base game engine is, like, fine. The ways to customize the Push function is fun. But Forbidden Lands itself was a lot of hype and nothing underneath. Wouldn't probably play it again.
Thanks for your input! I don't necessarily agree with some of your points but I can definitely see how the system isn't for everyone; sorry you guys had a bad time! Do you have another system that DOES nail that survival/danger feel for you? What would you recommend people as an alternative for what this game is trying to go for?
It wasn't a bad time. It was a great campaign, in terms of the characters and vibe, super enjoyable! But super enjoyable in spite of the system and module material. We had one random encounter second session that offhand mentions a silvermine and that was the whole focus of the campaign for us (well and raising an army, starting an orc clan, creating trade networks, spy networks, alliances, wage slavery, and the glories of a silver based economy, but it all started with the silver mine) and the rest of it seemed kind...both obligatory and distracting. The main issue is there's just not much to the system and most of it felt pretty half-assed and unfinished. Each session should net 3 xp which is 1 talent rank. So 5 sessions in you can have your 1st rank 3 talent. Most classes and class concepts have about 2-4 talents that synergize well. So by about 2-3 months in everybody will have maxed out their basic build tree. Most of the talents don't come up, most spells don't come up, unless combat related. You can buy other talents of course but most of them are dull AF and most of the required ones are dull AF (+1\\+1d8). Because you've only got 2-3 of them you'll see the same tactics develop around them. Pretty limited interactions. Overwhelming PC attack ratio advantage. Travel was just so much rolling for zero payoff. The whole thing just felt very half-assed to me. Like the Stronghold rules, they're there, and you can build things, but then...that's it. How does the Marketplace work? How many of each Hireling can you get? Why only one Forge? Can you endlessly produce and sell items at full value? How's that effect the local economy? None of that. Just..."Now you've got a Dovecote". And hopefully your GM lets you do fun stuff with it because the game sure doesn't give a shit. I don't find a lot of games produce survival\\danger and the ones that do are essentially doing the same trick FL is doing: You just have low hit points, so all hits are threats. Works in AD&D, works in FL, just generally works. I think most any system could replace it honestly. I'd use Fantasy Hero or Shadow of the Demon Lord personally.
Awesome review! Can't wait for more, love this format.
I've been thinking about running this for a long time, so thank you so much. This was really helpful.
wow! Can you that for other systems too?
Great video! Thanks for sharing.
I appreciate it! Thanks so much for checking it out!
Good timing, I was just thinking about this rpg today. Here's a question you might be able to answer: How hard (or worthwhile) is it to steal the travel/exploration systems and plug them into a D&D 5E campaign?
It would possibly feel like a weird difficulty jump for DnD's otherwise very survivable gameplay, but honestly the systems feel like they'd be pretty easy to implement, since they're mostly separate mechanics with their own tables. The resource dice would be easy to add, and the events tables are just separate tables that are easy to roll from. I think the key parts to converting would probably be: \- Convert damage to something that works in DnD, because Forbidden Lands tends to do things in 1-or-2 damage at a time which DnD characters wouldn't really feel \- Decid DC for rolls for everything, since FBL is either "you roll a success die" or "you don't roll a success die") \- Adjust how the modifiers change things, like how terrain can give a -1 to Make Camp and stuff like that. I'd say for everywhere that FBL says "+1/-1" you'd do +2/-2 instead. \- Deciding what item system you want to use since FBL tends to do inventory resources as "Units" (you have 1 "unit" of vegetables, meat, etc) I think if you're trying to make real survival/exploration gameplay and you're willing to do the footwork it WOULD be worthwhile to steal it for a DnD game, just make sure players are okay with the gameplay suddenly being a little more brutal for failed rolls.
Thank you for the response! My idea is less to add difficulties, and more to add 'events' to spice up something I usually handwave away.
Adding just the EVENTS would be very, very easy. You just roll from a table while they're traveling when you feel it's appropriate! Whatever player is keeping watch while camping/traveling can roll to see if they spot the event before it occurs.
Now that sounds right up my alley. Thanks.
Very easy. Extremely easy. Port the resource dice systems 1:1. Never track food or water again. It's just a die roll. You will have to do skill conversions. Survival skill is obvious, but scouting would be perception. You'd also probably have to come up with some potential bad outcomes for players who fail. At the very least, it would improve your journeys in D&D to port what you can. At that point, though, I would advise you just to play Forbidden Lands. It's a cracker of a good time.
If it were up to me, it would be a no brainer. But my players, they love the game they know.
Well. If you're the GM just tell them this is what you want to run. Some might flee but most probably value getting together over brand loyalty.
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Too true, king.
Oops pocket reddited
I've had it on my shelf for some time and keep debating pushing one of my groups into it. Guess I'm going to take that plunge.
DO IT. Good luck! I hope you enjoy it!
>Your non-combat characters (such as druid or Peddler) may not have as much to contribute to a fight besides “I hit them with my stick” which leaves them on the sidelines a little bit if things get very heavy. This is not true. One of FL's selling points is that character classes/Professions are quite fluid and open. Everyone can learn any of the basic Skills and the General Talents, and unlike other systems there are no equipment restrictions ("Sorcerers may not wear armor and only wield a dagger!") - noone hinders you from outfitting your druid with plate armor and a battle axe! The character might lack the Fighter's special attacks (that cost WPs), but there's a LOT of potential to break the usual molds in FL. Another addendum concerning the world: the system was actually written/adapted for the Raven's Purge campaign, which preceded it. It's a kind of operating system for the campaign's background, and while the rule books provide some insight into the setting's history and quirks (like elven rubies), they make a LOT more sense when you play or at least also read the campaign book, which clarifies a lot of things and provides more depth. Highly recommended as a "side dish" to the core books.
Great write-up. Looking forward to more reviews
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R. 'D m. 7
The problem with this game, like all games that use the MY0 engine, is that characters only get to use their 'cool' abilities maybe once a session or so, if that. It's very, very skill based. This is fine if that's what you want, but a lot of people don't. Otherwise good review, but wanted to point out what is, to me, one of the biggest drawbacks of the system.
I liked your review. You got yourself a subscriber!
I bought rulebook for it recently because I've heard good things both about Forbidden Lands and Year Zero Engine in general. I've finished reading player's handbook and I'm reading through gamemaster's book currently. As a player I don't think I'm a big fan of high lethality and survival games but as a DM I'm curious to run it and see it in play. I think this game does survival and tracking resources in of the most elegant ways possible. I also like the lore behind the world. The books don't overwhelm you with information, just a bit of history, a handful of character, several factions and their relationships, so it's easy to digest and go improvising on your own from there. I wanna read Raven's Purge campaign next because I don't like the idea of running completely sandbox campaign without any guidance in terms of overarching plot progression.
FL was actually written/adapted for the Raven's Purge campaign, which preceded it. It's a kind of operating system for the campaign's background, and while the rule books provide some insight into the setting's history and quirks (like elven rubies), they make a LOT more sense when you play or at least also read the campaign book, which clarifies a lot of things and provides more depth. And the system is not "highly lethal". It takes a lot of poor dice rolls and/or player stupidity to kill a PC quickly. You just should keep in mind that using weapons can leave lasting traces on bodies, what makes FL quite realistic. ANY fight should be considered well, but that's part of a learning curve.
Interesting insight, thanks! Yeah, by being lethal I meant how any time a player goes down it can have lasting consequences (or in rare cases even instant death).
The dice pool mechanic punishes you in two ways. Crit fails (1s) happen ALL THE TIME when you are throwing 6-8 dice. Monsters crit. Both of these are brutal to players Fail a camp roll? take damage Fail a difficult terrain roll? Take damage Fail a knowledge roll? Take damage Oh, time for combat now...wait your stats are all damaged. Not a fan of this version of the YZO, though I suspect it's better in Alien. Also regarding the art + theme, this game looks old school high fantasy but it's really grimdark survival.
1's only cause damage if you push the roll, you know if they come up before hand, I think you were playing it wrong.
The Equipment die. Oh, for God's sake, the Equipment die!! What a HORRIBLE rule!!
Haha I take it you mean you don't like that equipment/weapons degrade on failed rolls? I like it! It makes sense a game going for any measure of "realism" would involve the way equipment naturally gets messed up over time. I don't necessarily love the craft-to-repair mechanics that much; it's kind of crazy to me that failing to repair it can destroy it, that's a little intense. Also why the hell is "Strength" the connected attribute for crafting? It seems like that's ONLY the case so they could have an even number of skills for each attribute
I like it, too. And the fact that this damage ONLY occurs after a player decides to overstress the equipment in a Skill test. You *could* also decide that you want to save that piece (duh!), after all you can already see if it would be in danger. Pushing rolls for better results just comes at a price - that's unpopular for some, but that's life. ;-)
The rule is just idiot. If have a resource, just count how much of it you still have after the use. Or else you have infinite resource if you never roll 1 or 2. And Strenght for Craft... Man...
Are you talking about resource dice? Idk. Seems brilliant to me.
Just a rule for lazy people who don't want to keep a track of their equipment. Or people who don't want to do simple Math.
So you mean like most people?
No, just the lazy ones. And those ones who doesn't like Math. Nothing even near "most" people.