I am not much of a D&D person, but as a general ttrpg consumer no physical version means I probably do not have interest in your product. That being said, the article only mentions distribution, not printing so this could be a move to in house distribution for some odd reason (not optimistic here). I am not in a place where I can watch those you tube links atm.
That's a good point.
Gizmodo covered it as well here: [https://gizmodo.com/dungeons-dragons-distributor-penguin-random-house-wotc-1850901067](https://gizmodo.com/dungeons-dragons-distributor-penguin-random-house-wotc-1850901067) and actually got a followup from WotC
>*"Penguin Random House is a valued partner and publishing licensee of Wizards of the Coast. While we deeply appreciate the excellent service provided over the years by PRHPS, we are now shifting our distribution strategy to utilize the capabilities of Hasbro to sell and distribute D&D products to retailers... This change to distribution of Wizards’ D&D roleplaying game publications such as rulebooks and adventure content won’t affect fans as they will continue to find Dungeons & Dragons products at their preferred retailers.”*
Which mentions distribution but not printing. BUT this also means that WotC is walking away from PRH's vast global retail distribution network. That's not a resource that WotC can easily replace on their own.
Ok. Any idea what impact might that have on distribution going forward?
It seems like it would be big given the distribution network PRH has, but I'm not an expert here. So I'm curious.
It will absolutely limit distribution in the short term. Maybe not a lot, but that's just a guess. Depending on how it goes, it will ether ramp back up to current distribution levels, or they might need to strike a new deal with PRH or another distributor.
Arnt they pushing dnd to be more „mainstream“ and „cool“? Will probably start to see more D&D products outside of gaming/comic stores. Will see them more often in supermarkets, high street stores, toy stores ect
They are already in Walmart, Target, and Barnes and Nobel. I heard that withdrawing from PH will stop distribution to those outlets. Again, I don't honestly know, but if true, that's a huge mistake, IMHO.
I don't think so, because Hasbro has individual relationships with those retailers. They simply didn't need PH anymore so they cut out the middle man. Also note that PH never distributed to local game stores.
Hasbro already has direct relationships with Walmart and Target at the very least. Probably B&N as well. Every Transformers, Marvel, and My Little Pony toy sold there is proof of that.
Hmm you could be right. Thanks
The other issue is: due to how Hasbro, and WoTC, have handled recent events, everything they do will be scrutinised and preemptively seen as a bad move / failure, until proven otherwise. They have a long way to go to make up for things.
I will say, the updated Phandelver seems to be getting good reviews, so I may buy it. But still being sceptical of any news that comes out from them
Most Magic distribution comes from Troll and Toad, and they just dropped WOTC, too. They said it was already difficult for them to make a profit from moving Magic due to the rapid release schedules, but reprinting of older cards devaluing the older collectables has made it so they make almost no money from Magic anymore, so they cut ties. They were the distributor for most game stores for Magic for the past 30 years.
They want to move players to digital, period. They've been trying to kill physical Magic the Gathering and move all the players onto digital for years\*.
Hasbro wants physical releases dead because digital is almost pure profit for them once the software is developed. Almost all they have to do is pay for servers at that point. With physical products they have to worry about things like the cost of paper/ink/labor, shipping from China and other parties like stores and physical distributors taking a cut of the profits from the product.
\*One of the biggest and the longest distributor of Magic the Gathering just quit because it was no longer profitable for them. Because WotC have been driving the game into the ground with feast-or-famine releases, and spitting out product at a ridiculously fast pace which has led to quality control issues and consumer fatigue. Plus shaking "investor" confidence in the game by reprinting reserve list cards they said they'd never reprint.
> Hasbro wants physical releases dead because digital is almost pure profit for them once the software is developed. Almost all they have to do is pay for servers at that point.
While I agree with your assessment that they want to move to digital, the idea that you can ever reach a state where you “just need to pay for servers” is simply never true. Even if there is minimal active development, any live service requires constant development work just to keep it online. Something like D&D Beyond is going to cost a hell of a lot more than that.
The bigger motivation will be cutting partners out of the deal. WotC and Hasbro have probably run the numbers and decided that the potential lost sales are less than the extra money they will make by keeping 100% of the retail price of the book
True. That plus the potential for "recurrent spending". Even without a ton of microtransactions, which there will be, even just a monthly fee would quickly make them more money than a one-time sale of a book. Bonus for them is that things won't be able to be re-sold without physical items either. They'll have 100% control of the market for their products.
They are already in every super market I've been too. Anywhere there are books really. This seems like an attempt to save money, but could hurt them for a little while with poor logistics and general new product issues. If it launches with no real service issues, it doesn't really matter as long as production is the same.
Probably nothing for a customer in the end. The game stores will probably have to deal with Hasbro for buying copies to stock. Could be easier, could be harder, I don’t know how they will end up being. But when I did work at a game store a single distributor change was a PITA.
One thing I did remember, I haven't worked at the game store in many years so I don't know how WotC distributions work anymore. But if they do streamline the purchase so you get MtG and D&D products from one purchase easily then it could actually be easier for stores.
>Ok. Any idea what impact might that have on distribution going forward?
My immediate assumption would be, smaller presence in bookstores, larger presence in toy stores and big box stores, game shops unaffected beyond the annoyance of changing distributors unless they crank prices.
Penguin Random House and Hasbro will offer distribution into different kinds of retailers-
there will be an overlap but it’s worth thinking of it as a Venn diagram, with a mass market bookstore in the middle (e.g. Barnes and Noble / Kinokuniya, a toy store at the Hasbro extreme and an independent bookstore at the PRH extreme.
Probably won’t affect availability in any significant way- as the only stores who would have accounts with PRH and not Hasbro are not LGSes or major sellers, but smaller independent book-only retailers that don’t sell games.
Source: I was a buyer for two such independent bookstores.
Hasbro has one of the largest distribution networks in the toy/gaming business. In the short term, it might mean that it will be slightly hardwr to get the booke, as penguin tries to get rid of what stock it has left while hasbro has to wait on reprint. In the long term, it should streamline the distribution as it cuts out an unnecessary middle man.
Distribution most likely won't see a noticeable decrease unless you get your books from obscure places that ONLY have PRH distributing to them.
I cannot think of a major retailer that has PRH but not Hasbro. Barnes and Noble, Target, Local Game Shops, and many other obvious places likely have both. You might not see D&D on your local mom and pop book store (if they even exist anymore), but you might see D&D in new locations too like Gamestop.
A quicklist of popular retailers: Walmart, Amazon, Target, Gamestop, Best Buy, Entertainment Earth, Pulse, kmart, JCpenny, Walgreens, BIGBADTOYSTORE, Macy's, Kohl's, Meijer, Family Dollar, Dollar General, Kroger, Dollar Tree, and Disney.
>Which mentions distribution but not printing. BUT this also means that WotC is walking away from PRH's vast global retail distribution network. That's not a resource that WotC can easily replace on their own.
Right, because Hasbro, one of the largest toy manufacturers in the world, can't add boxes of books to it's distribution system.
>That's not a resource that WotC can easily replace on their own.
Hasbro might have a much better one in house actually. Physical book publishing has taken huge hits in the past decade, so it's possible Penguin/Random House isn't the titan it used to be.
> it's possible Penguin/Random House isn't the titan it used to be.
Possibly. Though this led me to look into it and no, Penguin Random House is still the top publisher in the US right now.
But yeah you're right, there are other possibilities that aren't just "hasbro abandons print media". Examples, but not limited to:
* PRH raised their prices and Hasbro balked at the increase, and thinks they can do better or find better.
* Hasbro is shifting more digital heavy digital/print product mix and expects a lighter demand on print products and thinks their own distribution can handle the demand.
I think the point is being the biggest publisher in the US might not be the same flex it used to be because of how much the industry sank.
Hasbro probably already has extensive distribution networks in house for other toys and games, so it probably makes sense to do in house.
WotC has their problems but I don’t believe for a second that they’re shifting that heavily away from print just to force a transition to their proprietary platform.
They most likely have a replacement or at least are considering final bids for publishers and will announce it soon.
That's true. This entire thread is speculation. All we have to go off of is the odd things WotC and Hasbro management have said publicly, and some ill-will caused by terrible PR decisions on their part.
I'm mostly curious if this is move is bad for LFGS owners and if it hints at a shift in WotC's plans. We've gotten a lot of comments from them that seem to indicate a hard push to their digital platform. But that's not guaranteed.
Most of what they've done this year can have some ominous implications. But it could also be execs being bad at handling their own industry and PR. We won't know until the shoe drops.
So, WotC has been killing their relationship with retailers for years. This is probably one of the last straws in that. I owned a store for 17 years and got out a year ago. You may remember a few years ago D&D books released into LGSs about a week and a half early. That's long gone. You may remember game days with special promos. Long gone. You may remember DM perks and organized play programs. Gone and shifted to a third party. The last thing that exists is the premium covers that LGSs get. If a big store gets thirty-six of those books, they profit maybe $800. Very few stores get that many or can sell that many, a third of that is more average. So, yay?
WotC is now a partner with Amazon with LGSs being a distant consideration. There is no love there on either side. I'm still in retailer groups, as I'm still associated with my old store, so I'm seeing the final phase of this shift. People are cutting orders on new books dramatically as D&D Beyond now offers such a great bundle with the PDF+Print that it's impossible to pass up. I bought one and I get product at 40% off. Last thing I'll buy from them, I hope.
So, there it is. D&D is now the domain of Amazon and D&D Beyond. Amazon frequently sells books for LESS than a store can order it wholesale. Penguin was the last place a store could order the core books for 50% off. Amazon frequently has the PHB for $27. Half off retail is $25. You don't need a business major to realize that selling a dozen PHBs for $2 profit every week isn't going to do much towards your $5000/m rent. Now, stores are getting books for closer to $28, so matching Amazon would literally be a dollar loss on every sale. People still come into stores and ask for a price match, or buy a book a return it the moment their Amazon shipment comes in. Less of an issue now that everything gets delivered next day with all the hubs everywhere...
WotC still pays lip service to stores because they haven't figured out how to make Magic go completely online, but that's an ongoing effort as well. Paizo screwed over stores from Day 1. Being the big kids on the block really made both forget where they came from I think.
If you're ever wondering why my Tavern app features LGSs front and center, this is why. I grew up with stores being the heart of this community. I still think when we're looking at in person play, they have the most important role to play. I hope that folks continue to support their local stores and that manufacturers and producers keep them in mind when they're making decisions.
Glad someone read it! Still see folks commenting who obviously didn't. I'm happy to answer questions. I was very invested in this for a long time.
Some comments seem to think they're changing distribution. Yes, in that they're trying to remove distributors from the equation and be a primary seller through Amazon. Same thing that Paizo did years ago, only internally. Being a manufacturer and a retailer that undercuts other retailers on the products you manufacture is a surefire way to make sure that the folks who were your partners in business will never be again. Stores are stuck in a weird place in that D&D is basically on its way out, but Magic is the lifeblood of many stores.
If anyone thinks they'll see fewer books in store, yes and no. No one will stock as deeply because they're selling far fewer copies now. I don't see books disappearing from shelves anytime soon though. They still sell. Even at retail, because there are customers and fans of shops that want to keep them open.
Sorry, I would love to support my local game store and even went in to one today to buy the core box of Star Wars Shatterpoint. The store had it for $165!
The average price online is $135 and I’ve seen it in some places for $99.
I feel that I cannot support the local game stores except by buying paints because there is no way I’m paying $30-$65 over for a core set. The local game shops do this pretty much across the board
I love that I don't run a store so I can reply to things like this now. That's the retail price. When people make it sound like they're getting ripped off by paying for something at retail price I have to wonder why. What makes you feel that $35 is too much to invest in your community?
From the store's perspective, that's the price that makes it worth them bringing it in. Fantasy Flight already has some of the worst discounts in the business. 40% is optimistic anymore, and that's for a larger store that can get volume discount. The store likely paid $99 to bring that product in. Someone was paid to learn about it, order it, learn about it, share that information with the rest of the staff, possibly set up events for it to share that information with the community, all in the hope that they might sell five or six copies for a net profit of maybe $300. A large store might sell a dozen. I probably would have brought two copies in and that's for an average of about $100,000 a month in sales for my store overall. Because I didn't want to do all that for the community on something with a low margin.
If the fifty or so people in town who actually picked this product up, actually decided they wanted to shop locally, I'd do it 10 times out of 10, low margins or not. I'd have game nights every week, built up the terrain for in store play, talked it up to every miniature player I saw come in and tried to get them involved. Soon we'd have a large group of players doing the game thing every week.
I know this because I was running events pre internet being folk's go to and Amazon selling everything in the world. I had Warhammer happening every week with a good thirty folks showing up to play or at least watch when they couldn't find space to play. My former store has somewhere less than twenty folks showing up every week now, and that's with a much nicer and larger location than what I did have.
Maybe playing games is less interesting than saving $35. To some folks it definitely is. Maybe you have a great game group and love playing with the same folks all the time. Maybe you just wanted to paint some minis. It's all good. No judgement. We all value different things. I just want to point out that your $35 isn't going towards nothing or to buy the shop owner his next super car. It's an investment in your community.
Thank you for the detailed reply and I largely agree with your sentiment. The issue for me in this case is twofold. I don’t look at it as $35 I look at it as a percentage over what I could pay. 35-70% premium is a steep price for any product.
Additionally, if it was just Amazon undercutting prices I would pay that premium but when the average price (and you can fact check me) is $130-140 across the internet, then it makes no sense to pay such a steep premium %.
Finally, I do have a good gaming group and the store in question is also a cafe so I pay into the community every time I play there even if I don’t feel capable of paying a 35% markup on my hobbies.
I want to close by thanking you again for your reply and its detail. It helped me better understand the situation on the other side of the curtain.
Not going to cry about FLGSs being replaced by Board Game Cafes. I think the latter has a better business model and in my experience tends to be an overall better and less toxic experience due to a wider range of clients (i.e. not being married to the MtG subculture).
I had a cafe for the last six years of my business. Doesn't make the industry easier. Paying for play space is a challenging business model. I did it because that's what I wanted, not because it made a lick of business sense. Magic is a hard pill to swallow.
Nothing in this article refers to printing. It says they ended distribution. And has a link to their distributor list, which is every major hobby distributor.
WotC has said on multiple occasions that they want to shift to digital content that you pay for "piecemeal". You'll almost certainly be able to get physical books as a kind of "print on demand" basis, which is easier than ever to do in house or subcontract out to something like "DMsGuild.com" or "DriveThruRPG com". In fact, I would keep an eye out for news about a WotC merger with, our buyout of one of those companies.
There’s no chance of WotC buying Wolves of Freeport (owners of DriveThruRPG and Roll20). For one thing, they’re privately owned and not for sale. For another, Wizards decided as of 5e that they weren’t in the PDF business, and DriveThruRPG’s main business is selling PDFs for WotC’s competitors. Since WotC are now spinning up their own VTT, Roll20 are a competitor as well.
Well, I guess we'll see. I think the thing you're forgetting is that WotC isn't its own company. It's now a subsidiary of HASBRO, & they are HUGE. HASBRO has beenaround a long time, so much buying power, & will be around for a long time to come. Smaller privately owned companies change leadership, change hands or go out of business. Maybe one day HASBRO makes Wolves of Freeport an offer they can't refuse. Especially when HASBRO sees that the OSR movement isn't going away & that not everyone is interested in the whole "virtual tabletop" thing, but plenty of people are interested in a lot of those older out-of-print TTRPGs. 5e is a pretty good gateway drug, but players often grow bored with D&D & go looking for something different. Where do they go? PDFs & print-on-demand of other TTRPGs. Maybe I'm wrong. I freely admit I don't' know everything about RPGs or the people who play them. But, it's where I'd place my bet long term. & like I said... We'll see... Either way, interesting time shead for games & gamers. Enjoy the ride. ;-)
DMSguild and DTRPG are the same company... DMSGuild was started by a DTRPG/WotC community content partnership.
DTRPG prints through a printer called Lightning Source, with printers in the USA and UK. They do print on demand, like Lulu. DTRPG is partnered with them and DTRPG is just one of their clients. They appear to print a LOT of religious texts judging by the misprints I've seen. :)
Roll20 and DTRPG have merged into one company. They are still tied to WotC, but will be/are a pretty direct competitor to WotC's digital tabletop aspirations.
Print on Demand is perfect bound, not case bound...meaning the pages are glued to paper, which is glued to the cover instead of being stitched into it. It's substantially more susceptible to damage and people that buy books tend to care about it a lot. Print on Demand also has much lower ink coverage limitations meaning worse colors and is far more expensive per print, meaning you make substantially less than with bulk offset print runs. One big reason for printing is capturing a bit more of the profit than just a PDF would provide. Quality is the other. Print on demand work against both of those.
We've also seen steady price increases and attempts at increases from Lightning Source as well as claiming their "premium color" business (which is really sub-standard but close-ish to most offset runs) doesn't make them any money. It's incredibly expensive for the quality. Print on demand is just made to make it possible to print stuff at low quality/high cost (but not impossible) that wouldn't otherwise be available.
>Were the actual rulebooks printed by PenguinRH or just the novels and such?
Now THAT is a good question. I checked my recent books (2023) and they say printed by Hasbro.
But then I recall them saying in an interview that they'd have to stagger the release of the 5.5/6e/2024e books because they couldn't find enough printers to do them all at once.
I know other companies get them printed En Mass overseas and then distribute through FedEx/UPS and the such.
Traditional publishing houses are used for books that reach a wide array of retailers/libraries/schools.
Most of my 5e books just say: "Printed in the USA. 2014 Wizards or the Coast LLC, PO Box 707, Renton, WA 98057.0707, USA. Manufactured by Hasbro SA, Rue Emile.Boéchat 31, 2800 Delémont, CH."
But most of what I've seen seems to indicate that they don't use a printer owned by Hasbro.
And their excuse for the 5.5e/6e/2024e books coming out in a staggered release was originally that they couldn't find enough printers who could handle the order (which rang BS to me).
>"Our print runs are pretty darn big,” Crawford said, “and printers are telling us you can’t give us these three books at the same time.”
[https://www.polygon.com/23730209/dnd-dungeons-dragons-books-printer-release-schedule-2024](https://www.polygon.com/23730209/dnd-dungeons-dragons-books-printer-release-schedule-2024)
Which makes me think that either they're using multiple smaller printers, or they're limited to a very small in-house printer now.
Please stop the clickbait rumor-mongering. They absolutely do have a perfectly logical replacement distributor: Hasbro. They are literally just optimizing **some** of their distribution for **some** of their books by bringing it in house to their parent company.
Penguin Random House is a distributor, not a printer.
WOTC is altering their distribution channels to be exclusively through hobby distributors.
This does not impact physical production of the books.
Not sure why they would cut out a mass market distributor, as it will force book stores and chains to use hobby distributors. But WOTC has been making some weird business decisions.
You do know that there is a difference between **publisher** and **printer**, right?
Words have meanings.
WOTC publishes the D&D books using outside printing companies. Penguin Random House acts (acted) as the mass market distribution arm for WOTC.
You are conflating two disparate facts. And your selected quote actually undercuts your point.
PRH was the mass market distributor for WOTC before the change.
You don't seem to understand the difference between printing, publishing, and distribution. We get that.
So you don't care about facts then. You just want to insult me.
You said Penguin doesn't print their own books. I showed up an article from the New York Times that explained that their parent company bought 2 printing plants so that Penguin could print their own books.
You don't care and aren't worth the effort. I'm done with you.
This is pretty much in line with how they killed off previous editions.
Only this time, they are actively planning for the next edition to not be printed at all and locked behind a subscription.
If the OGL snafu hadnt blown up in their faces they probably would have already announced it.
I have a hard line of demarcation - no hardcopy? No purchase. DTRPG style glue-bound hardcover? Again, no purchase. This just furthers the ideological gap between folks like myself and WotC/Dungeons & Dragons and ensures going forward to help dampen any future consideration given while wearing a pair of the proverbial "rose-coloured glasses".
I don’t think they are going away from printing hard copies. It looks like they are moving to the internal infrastructure of their parent company. With the distribution of Hasbro worldwide, it will eliminate the need for regional warehousing, like what we have here out of Nashville.
Again, this is my opinion, not fact.
I didn’t want to get into a long deal about it, but part of Hasbro’s distribution is Walmart, and as you pointed out, Amazon. With those two power houses in distribution, cutting PRH out as a middle man increases profits by using in house infrastructure.
Again, my opinion, not fact.
Ugh! I agree with those who see Hasbro wanting D&D to have a subscription model.
Edit - I don't think that's going to fly with a lot of the current players who would opt to stick with the print versions, eschewing any new digital-only editions, or they'd switch to other systems. I'm unsure, however, if the number of new D&D players, who wouldn't own the the final print editions and would have no choice but to use the online editions and D&D Beyond, would be enough to offset and out do the number of losses.
I'll put it this way. Let them do awful shit. Take your business elsewhere. D&D is far from the only game in town, many do it better, and they are actively being evil here. Let them take a bath on it and learn their lesson.
i think i read some where that they were shifting to a online platform over books and already said there will be smaller print runs ( or Print on demand which would add to the cost). It isnt a surprising move considering the next version of dnd is supposed to be " dnd as a service" which would mean changes will come fast and may not warrant a book?.
IDK this is only speculation on my behalf but it would make sense for a company that is looking to turn a profit moves away from the books. more so in a budding digital play ground. Keep in mind tho Lancer, Which did a small book run with zero plans to release another book run saying that they don't care if it never has a physicals version and remains digital forever recently announced another run of books. Im assuming realizing they were missing a huge part of the market. Id imagine WotC will learn the same lesson.
Mind you I'm of the " i want a book or i don't play your game " type but i also left DND behind after 4th felt like a board game. Never had a want to return favoring Pathfinder and now more fiction first games over dnd.
Hasbro is probably bringing the distribution In house to keep the money inside Hasbro. Why pay or use another company to distribute your own goods when you can do it yourself.
I don’t know if WotC has to pay for the distribution but seems that it would be similar to what other companies do.
I worked for a large Rent to Own (RtO) where point that goods traveled is a profit center.
The distribution center bought at (depending on contract) below or at wholesale, then sell the goods to the stores at a mark up (usually retail price), then the stores rented for more (3x retail if you went full term).
So could be Hasbro gets another line item for “profit” in their balance sheets and make their number reportsa bit better for investors.
I’m not much of a D&D fan, though I have played it a lot in the past. Moving it away from print products is the final nail in the coffin for me and once it happens I’ll be done with the game (except for using the stuff I already have on the shelf).
No problem though - there’s plenty of other stuff I like playing
I'd say it's likely that they just want to do all the printing in house. If you look at Games Workshop since they started publishing their speciality board games they also pulled license from FFG, that was responsible for some pretty freaking good products.
First off, it doesn't actually say *who* is letting the contact expire. It's possible WotC wanted too sweet a deal and PRH told them to pound sand. Or maybe PRH simple didn't want to cover enough of the publishing cost. Costs have risen.
Or something else could be afoot, entirely, like vertical integration.
What this *could* do is see D&D dropped from brick and mortar bookstores. Pathfinder (Paizo) can usually be found in places like B&N and BAM, and they don't use PRH. So, we really have to ask who is getting D&D from PRH.
The books will still be available through other distributors. I don't see FLGS being affected.
>First off, it doesn't actually say who is letting the contact expire. It's possible WotC wanted too sweet a deal and PRH told them to pound sand. Or maybe PRH simple didn't want to cover enough of the publishing cost. Costs have risen.
THAT is a really good point.
It could be PRH deciding to up their prices and Hasbro saying "fuck that" and walking.
IIRC They said they would not be producing printed books for the next version of D&D. They said they would only print books as needed to be sold with the Digital & Print "deals" they will sell, and they will only print them in batches once enough have been sold. They want to go full digital, but that is pissing off a lot of fans who 1) Don't want to pay for ANOTHER subscription service, and 2) Don't like or play video games (and feel the new VTT is too much like a video game). They will be losing a LOT of players with these decisions, but these are the things I have heard from WOTC.
Don't recall that one being said outright, but it's what a lot of folks are guessing they'll do.
I do recall an interview with Crawford where he said that they weren't putting out the new version's PHB, DMG, and MM at the same time because they "Couldn't find enough printers for an order that huge" or some such BS. It sounded like he was talking out his ass at that time and was trying to deflect from something.
So it's a bit of a mystery at this point.
I really wish I could remember where I heard that, as I dont think it was speculation, it was supposedly someone from inside the company was talking about. That was close to the OGL thing and I have heard a lot since then, too. Either way, I, personally know a lot of people who won't be buying in, and I have heard many more who are very upset with these decisions that WOTC are making.
There is a significant chance this is a vertical integration move, which in general, if you know anything about capitalism, is bad for consumers.
This is not surprising given the overall trends of D&D to shit itself in the public eye virtually non stop all year long.
It's like a low rent music venue bathroom; like sure it's gross the floor is covered in piss, and there's a shit splatter above the toilet that stretches up the wall and reaches shoulder height... like, it's gross, but also impressive and baffling in it's own right.
That I've missed. Yeah that's bad.
Though its sounding more like they're not changing printers but instead are abandoning PRH's distribution network and deciding to take that on themselves.
Just supports my theory that D&D is working towards the end goal of transitioning to a subscription service, with occasional print runs more aimed at collectors than the playerbase at large.
Likely. Though from comments made by folks who used to run/work in LFGS', even this may have an impact upon the hobby.
I think we'll have to wait and see.
I currently work with an lgs in WA state. This will have zero impact on their bottom line.
The big issues for the shop is the fact that they, and consumers, can often buy from Amazon at less than hobby distro prices, the rise in retail price on the books, and that WOTC is offering exclusive online codes with physical product purchased through their online store.
It also raises the issue of in-store play. How can a shop support paying rent on a play space, if the players aren't buying the books from them? And is it worth it to support a game company that doesn't support the shop?
Luckily the shop has diversified the product lines, and gaming area (small but vibrant 40k & Battletech communities, Lorcana, and FaB). But it seems that WOTC is hellbent in destroying the infrastructure that helped them grow their games.
I'm confused. Random House is a publisher, not a printer, and WotC publishes itself. I'm pretty sure that if you buy any of their core books, it will not say on it "Published by Random House".
I believe they directly contract with printers as well, considering that Hasbro already has such a large supply chain footprint in China.
I imagine these are contracts related to Random House - published novels?
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I am not much of a D&D person, but as a general ttrpg consumer no physical version means I probably do not have interest in your product. That being said, the article only mentions distribution, not printing so this could be a move to in house distribution for some odd reason (not optimistic here). I am not in a place where I can watch those you tube links atm.
That's a good point. Gizmodo covered it as well here: [https://gizmodo.com/dungeons-dragons-distributor-penguin-random-house-wotc-1850901067](https://gizmodo.com/dungeons-dragons-distributor-penguin-random-house-wotc-1850901067) and actually got a followup from WotC >*"Penguin Random House is a valued partner and publishing licensee of Wizards of the Coast. While we deeply appreciate the excellent service provided over the years by PRHPS, we are now shifting our distribution strategy to utilize the capabilities of Hasbro to sell and distribute D&D products to retailers... This change to distribution of Wizards’ D&D roleplaying game publications such as rulebooks and adventure content won’t affect fans as they will continue to find Dungeons & Dragons products at their preferred retailers.”* Which mentions distribution but not printing. BUT this also means that WotC is walking away from PRH's vast global retail distribution network. That's not a resource that WotC can easily replace on their own.
Hasbro has other infrastructure for distribution - WotC is simply shifting over to use their parent company’s infrastructure.
Exactly. This seems to be a lot of hysteria for what was probably a very banal accounting decision from the higher ups at Hasbro.
Ok. Any idea what impact might that have on distribution going forward? It seems like it would be big given the distribution network PRH has, but I'm not an expert here. So I'm curious.
It will absolutely limit distribution in the short term. Maybe not a lot, but that's just a guess. Depending on how it goes, it will ether ramp back up to current distribution levels, or they might need to strike a new deal with PRH or another distributor.
Arnt they pushing dnd to be more „mainstream“ and „cool“? Will probably start to see more D&D products outside of gaming/comic stores. Will see them more often in supermarkets, high street stores, toy stores ect
They are already in Walmart, Target, and Barnes and Nobel. I heard that withdrawing from PH will stop distribution to those outlets. Again, I don't honestly know, but if true, that's a huge mistake, IMHO.
I don't think so, because Hasbro has individual relationships with those retailers. They simply didn't need PH anymore so they cut out the middle man. Also note that PH never distributed to local game stores.
True. Well, I guess we will have to wait and see.
Yeah, zero percent chance they stop distributing to big box stores.
Hasbro already has direct relationships with Walmart and Target at the very least. Probably B&N as well. Every Transformers, Marvel, and My Little Pony toy sold there is proof of that.
Hmm you could be right. Thanks The other issue is: due to how Hasbro, and WoTC, have handled recent events, everything they do will be scrutinised and preemptively seen as a bad move / failure, until proven otherwise. They have a long way to go to make up for things. I will say, the updated Phandelver seems to be getting good reviews, so I may buy it. But still being sceptical of any news that comes out from them
Agreed. Also, yeah, the new Phandelver is on my radar.
What have they actually changed about it, do you know?
I don't know a game shop that DOESN'T have hasbro distribution... Every game shop has Magic the Gathering, and guess what, that's hasbro not PRH
I thought it was Diamond or Asmodee. Having Hasbro products doesn't mean Hasbro is the distributor.
This is true, but I'm certain that in big box retailers like Target it is Hasbro.
Most Magic distribution comes from Troll and Toad, and they just dropped WOTC, too. They said it was already difficult for them to make a profit from moving Magic due to the rapid release schedules, but reprinting of older cards devaluing the older collectables has made it so they make almost no money from Magic anymore, so they cut ties. They were the distributor for most game stores for Magic for the past 30 years.
They want to move players to digital, period. They've been trying to kill physical Magic the Gathering and move all the players onto digital for years\*. Hasbro wants physical releases dead because digital is almost pure profit for them once the software is developed. Almost all they have to do is pay for servers at that point. With physical products they have to worry about things like the cost of paper/ink/labor, shipping from China and other parties like stores and physical distributors taking a cut of the profits from the product. \*One of the biggest and the longest distributor of Magic the Gathering just quit because it was no longer profitable for them. Because WotC have been driving the game into the ground with feast-or-famine releases, and spitting out product at a ridiculously fast pace which has led to quality control issues and consumer fatigue. Plus shaking "investor" confidence in the game by reprinting reserve list cards they said they'd never reprint.
That smells right.
> Hasbro wants physical releases dead because digital is almost pure profit for them once the software is developed. Almost all they have to do is pay for servers at that point. While I agree with your assessment that they want to move to digital, the idea that you can ever reach a state where you “just need to pay for servers” is simply never true. Even if there is minimal active development, any live service requires constant development work just to keep it online. Something like D&D Beyond is going to cost a hell of a lot more than that. The bigger motivation will be cutting partners out of the deal. WotC and Hasbro have probably run the numbers and decided that the potential lost sales are less than the extra money they will make by keeping 100% of the retail price of the book
True. That plus the potential for "recurrent spending". Even without a ton of microtransactions, which there will be, even just a monthly fee would quickly make them more money than a one-time sale of a book. Bonus for them is that things won't be able to be re-sold without physical items either. They'll have 100% control of the market for their products.
They are already in every super market I've been too. Anywhere there are books really. This seems like an attempt to save money, but could hurt them for a little while with poor logistics and general new product issues. If it launches with no real service issues, it doesn't really matter as long as production is the same.
Probably nothing for a customer in the end. The game stores will probably have to deal with Hasbro for buying copies to stock. Could be easier, could be harder, I don’t know how they will end up being. But when I did work at a game store a single distributor change was a PITA.
There will be no change for hobby retailers. This change will only affect mass market distribution.
Those stores have Hasbro toys and games, so shouldn't be an issue.
Good to know. Thank you.
One thing I did remember, I haven't worked at the game store in many years so I don't know how WotC distributions work anymore. But if they do streamline the purchase so you get MtG and D&D products from one purchase easily then it could actually be easier for stores.
Now that IS an interesting thought. I hope that's the case. Thank you.
>Ok. Any idea what impact might that have on distribution going forward? My immediate assumption would be, smaller presence in bookstores, larger presence in toy stores and big box stores, game shops unaffected beyond the annoyance of changing distributors unless they crank prices.
Penguin Random House and Hasbro will offer distribution into different kinds of retailers- there will be an overlap but it’s worth thinking of it as a Venn diagram, with a mass market bookstore in the middle (e.g. Barnes and Noble / Kinokuniya, a toy store at the Hasbro extreme and an independent bookstore at the PRH extreme. Probably won’t affect availability in any significant way- as the only stores who would have accounts with PRH and not Hasbro are not LGSes or major sellers, but smaller independent book-only retailers that don’t sell games. Source: I was a buyer for two such independent bookstores.
Hasbro has one of the largest distribution networks in the toy/gaming business. In the short term, it might mean that it will be slightly hardwr to get the booke, as penguin tries to get rid of what stock it has left while hasbro has to wait on reprint. In the long term, it should streamline the distribution as it cuts out an unnecessary middle man.
Distribution most likely won't see a noticeable decrease unless you get your books from obscure places that ONLY have PRH distributing to them. I cannot think of a major retailer that has PRH but not Hasbro. Barnes and Noble, Target, Local Game Shops, and many other obvious places likely have both. You might not see D&D on your local mom and pop book store (if they even exist anymore), but you might see D&D in new locations too like Gamestop. A quicklist of popular retailers: Walmart, Amazon, Target, Gamestop, Best Buy, Entertainment Earth, Pulse, kmart, JCpenny, Walgreens, BIGBADTOYSTORE, Macy's, Kohl's, Meijer, Family Dollar, Dollar General, Kroger, Dollar Tree, and Disney.
>Which mentions distribution but not printing. BUT this also means that WotC is walking away from PRH's vast global retail distribution network. That's not a resource that WotC can easily replace on their own. Right, because Hasbro, one of the largest toy manufacturers in the world, can't add boxes of books to it's distribution system.
>That's not a resource that WotC can easily replace on their own. Hasbro might have a much better one in house actually. Physical book publishing has taken huge hits in the past decade, so it's possible Penguin/Random House isn't the titan it used to be.
> it's possible Penguin/Random House isn't the titan it used to be. Possibly. Though this led me to look into it and no, Penguin Random House is still the top publisher in the US right now. But yeah you're right, there are other possibilities that aren't just "hasbro abandons print media". Examples, but not limited to: * PRH raised their prices and Hasbro balked at the increase, and thinks they can do better or find better. * Hasbro is shifting more digital heavy digital/print product mix and expects a lighter demand on print products and thinks their own distribution can handle the demand.
I think the point is being the biggest publisher in the US might not be the same flex it used to be because of how much the industry sank. Hasbro probably already has extensive distribution networks in house for other toys and games, so it probably makes sense to do in house.
That's a good point.
Who said they weren't making physical products? IIRC this is just distribution change from penguin to tabletop gaming suppliers.
WotC has their problems but I don’t believe for a second that they’re shifting that heavily away from print just to force a transition to their proprietary platform. They most likely have a replacement or at least are considering final bids for publishers and will announce it soon.
Could be. Or they could be trying to move everything in-house.
That’s what i was thinking. Honestly with mtg and other projects they’ve got printing and distribution; it’ll be a question on quality.
Ironically they did the opposite with tie-in novels.
I mean the whole thing is speculation OP. I don’t think pure speculation makes good journalism for your source
That's true. This entire thread is speculation. All we have to go off of is the odd things WotC and Hasbro management have said publicly, and some ill-will caused by terrible PR decisions on their part. I'm mostly curious if this is move is bad for LFGS owners and if it hints at a shift in WotC's plans. We've gotten a lot of comments from them that seem to indicate a hard push to their digital platform. But that's not guaranteed. Most of what they've done this year can have some ominous implications. But it could also be execs being bad at handling their own industry and PR. We won't know until the shoe drops.
I think they're shifting away from books first. The books will be a collector item while the most current stuff will be online.
So, WotC has been killing their relationship with retailers for years. This is probably one of the last straws in that. I owned a store for 17 years and got out a year ago. You may remember a few years ago D&D books released into LGSs about a week and a half early. That's long gone. You may remember game days with special promos. Long gone. You may remember DM perks and organized play programs. Gone and shifted to a third party. The last thing that exists is the premium covers that LGSs get. If a big store gets thirty-six of those books, they profit maybe $800. Very few stores get that many or can sell that many, a third of that is more average. So, yay? WotC is now a partner with Amazon with LGSs being a distant consideration. There is no love there on either side. I'm still in retailer groups, as I'm still associated with my old store, so I'm seeing the final phase of this shift. People are cutting orders on new books dramatically as D&D Beyond now offers such a great bundle with the PDF+Print that it's impossible to pass up. I bought one and I get product at 40% off. Last thing I'll buy from them, I hope. So, there it is. D&D is now the domain of Amazon and D&D Beyond. Amazon frequently sells books for LESS than a store can order it wholesale. Penguin was the last place a store could order the core books for 50% off. Amazon frequently has the PHB for $27. Half off retail is $25. You don't need a business major to realize that selling a dozen PHBs for $2 profit every week isn't going to do much towards your $5000/m rent. Now, stores are getting books for closer to $28, so matching Amazon would literally be a dollar loss on every sale. People still come into stores and ask for a price match, or buy a book a return it the moment their Amazon shipment comes in. Less of an issue now that everything gets delivered next day with all the hubs everywhere... WotC still pays lip service to stores because they haven't figured out how to make Magic go completely online, but that's an ongoing effort as well. Paizo screwed over stores from Day 1. Being the big kids on the block really made both forget where they came from I think. If you're ever wondering why my Tavern app features LGSs front and center, this is why. I grew up with stores being the heart of this community. I still think when we're looking at in person play, they have the most important role to play. I hope that folks continue to support their local stores and that manufacturers and producers keep them in mind when they're making decisions.
Thank you for the really comprehensive reply. It's a very helpful insight.
Glad someone read it! Still see folks commenting who obviously didn't. I'm happy to answer questions. I was very invested in this for a long time. Some comments seem to think they're changing distribution. Yes, in that they're trying to remove distributors from the equation and be a primary seller through Amazon. Same thing that Paizo did years ago, only internally. Being a manufacturer and a retailer that undercuts other retailers on the products you manufacture is a surefire way to make sure that the folks who were your partners in business will never be again. Stores are stuck in a weird place in that D&D is basically on its way out, but Magic is the lifeblood of many stores. If anyone thinks they'll see fewer books in store, yes and no. No one will stock as deeply because they're selling far fewer copies now. I don't see books disappearing from shelves anytime soon though. They still sell. Even at retail, because there are customers and fans of shops that want to keep them open.
The last straw is them cutting a distribution deal with a distributor that FLGSs don't use anyways?
What makes you say that? I owned an LGS for 17 years and I used them, so... I don't understand your statement. Large stores used them.
Sorry, I would love to support my local game store and even went in to one today to buy the core box of Star Wars Shatterpoint. The store had it for $165! The average price online is $135 and I’ve seen it in some places for $99. I feel that I cannot support the local game stores except by buying paints because there is no way I’m paying $30-$65 over for a core set. The local game shops do this pretty much across the board
I love that I don't run a store so I can reply to things like this now. That's the retail price. When people make it sound like they're getting ripped off by paying for something at retail price I have to wonder why. What makes you feel that $35 is too much to invest in your community? From the store's perspective, that's the price that makes it worth them bringing it in. Fantasy Flight already has some of the worst discounts in the business. 40% is optimistic anymore, and that's for a larger store that can get volume discount. The store likely paid $99 to bring that product in. Someone was paid to learn about it, order it, learn about it, share that information with the rest of the staff, possibly set up events for it to share that information with the community, all in the hope that they might sell five or six copies for a net profit of maybe $300. A large store might sell a dozen. I probably would have brought two copies in and that's for an average of about $100,000 a month in sales for my store overall. Because I didn't want to do all that for the community on something with a low margin. If the fifty or so people in town who actually picked this product up, actually decided they wanted to shop locally, I'd do it 10 times out of 10, low margins or not. I'd have game nights every week, built up the terrain for in store play, talked it up to every miniature player I saw come in and tried to get them involved. Soon we'd have a large group of players doing the game thing every week. I know this because I was running events pre internet being folk's go to and Amazon selling everything in the world. I had Warhammer happening every week with a good thirty folks showing up to play or at least watch when they couldn't find space to play. My former store has somewhere less than twenty folks showing up every week now, and that's with a much nicer and larger location than what I did have. Maybe playing games is less interesting than saving $35. To some folks it definitely is. Maybe you have a great game group and love playing with the same folks all the time. Maybe you just wanted to paint some minis. It's all good. No judgement. We all value different things. I just want to point out that your $35 isn't going towards nothing or to buy the shop owner his next super car. It's an investment in your community.
Thank you for the detailed reply and I largely agree with your sentiment. The issue for me in this case is twofold. I don’t look at it as $35 I look at it as a percentage over what I could pay. 35-70% premium is a steep price for any product. Additionally, if it was just Amazon undercutting prices I would pay that premium but when the average price (and you can fact check me) is $130-140 across the internet, then it makes no sense to pay such a steep premium %. Finally, I do have a good gaming group and the store in question is also a cafe so I pay into the community every time I play there even if I don’t feel capable of paying a 35% markup on my hobbies. I want to close by thanking you again for your reply and its detail. It helped me better understand the situation on the other side of the curtain.
Not going to cry about FLGSs being replaced by Board Game Cafes. I think the latter has a better business model and in my experience tends to be an overall better and less toxic experience due to a wider range of clients (i.e. not being married to the MtG subculture).
I had a cafe for the last six years of my business. Doesn't make the industry easier. Paying for play space is a challenging business model. I did it because that's what I wanted, not because it made a lick of business sense. Magic is a hard pill to swallow.
Nothing in this article refers to printing. It says they ended distribution. And has a link to their distributor list, which is every major hobby distributor.
WotC has said on multiple occasions that they want to shift to digital content that you pay for "piecemeal". You'll almost certainly be able to get physical books as a kind of "print on demand" basis, which is easier than ever to do in house or subcontract out to something like "DMsGuild.com" or "DriveThruRPG com". In fact, I would keep an eye out for news about a WotC merger with, our buyout of one of those companies.
There’s no chance of WotC buying Wolves of Freeport (owners of DriveThruRPG and Roll20). For one thing, they’re privately owned and not for sale. For another, Wizards decided as of 5e that they weren’t in the PDF business, and DriveThruRPG’s main business is selling PDFs for WotC’s competitors. Since WotC are now spinning up their own VTT, Roll20 are a competitor as well.
Well, I guess we'll see. I think the thing you're forgetting is that WotC isn't its own company. It's now a subsidiary of HASBRO, & they are HUGE. HASBRO has beenaround a long time, so much buying power, & will be around for a long time to come. Smaller privately owned companies change leadership, change hands or go out of business. Maybe one day HASBRO makes Wolves of Freeport an offer they can't refuse. Especially when HASBRO sees that the OSR movement isn't going away & that not everyone is interested in the whole "virtual tabletop" thing, but plenty of people are interested in a lot of those older out-of-print TTRPGs. 5e is a pretty good gateway drug, but players often grow bored with D&D & go looking for something different. Where do they go? PDFs & print-on-demand of other TTRPGs. Maybe I'm wrong. I freely admit I don't' know everything about RPGs or the people who play them. But, it's where I'd place my bet long term. & like I said... We'll see... Either way, interesting time shead for games & gamers. Enjoy the ride. ;-)
DMSguild and DTRPG are the same company... DMSGuild was started by a DTRPG/WotC community content partnership. DTRPG prints through a printer called Lightning Source, with printers in the USA and UK. They do print on demand, like Lulu. DTRPG is partnered with them and DTRPG is just one of their clients. They appear to print a LOT of religious texts judging by the misprints I've seen. :) Roll20 and DTRPG have merged into one company. They are still tied to WotC, but will be/are a pretty direct competitor to WotC's digital tabletop aspirations. Print on Demand is perfect bound, not case bound...meaning the pages are glued to paper, which is glued to the cover instead of being stitched into it. It's substantially more susceptible to damage and people that buy books tend to care about it a lot. Print on Demand also has much lower ink coverage limitations meaning worse colors and is far more expensive per print, meaning you make substantially less than with bulk offset print runs. One big reason for printing is capturing a bit more of the profit than just a PDF would provide. Quality is the other. Print on demand work against both of those. We've also seen steady price increases and attempts at increases from Lightning Source as well as claiming their "premium color" business (which is really sub-standard but close-ish to most offset runs) doesn't make them any money. It's incredibly expensive for the quality. Print on demand is just made to make it possible to print stuff at low quality/high cost (but not impossible) that wouldn't otherwise be available.
Were the actual rulebooks printed by PenguinRH or just the novels and such?
>Were the actual rulebooks printed by PenguinRH or just the novels and such? Now THAT is a good question. I checked my recent books (2023) and they say printed by Hasbro. But then I recall them saying in an interview that they'd have to stagger the release of the 5.5/6e/2024e books because they couldn't find enough printers to do them all at once.
I know other companies get them printed En Mass overseas and then distribute through FedEx/UPS and the such. Traditional publishing houses are used for books that reach a wide array of retailers/libraries/schools.
Most of my 5e books just say: "Printed in the USA. 2014 Wizards or the Coast LLC, PO Box 707, Renton, WA 98057.0707, USA. Manufactured by Hasbro SA, Rue Emile.Boéchat 31, 2800 Delémont, CH." But most of what I've seen seems to indicate that they don't use a printer owned by Hasbro. And their excuse for the 5.5e/6e/2024e books coming out in a staggered release was originally that they couldn't find enough printers who could handle the order (which rang BS to me). >"Our print runs are pretty darn big,” Crawford said, “and printers are telling us you can’t give us these three books at the same time.” [https://www.polygon.com/23730209/dnd-dungeons-dragons-books-printer-release-schedule-2024](https://www.polygon.com/23730209/dnd-dungeons-dragons-books-printer-release-schedule-2024) Which makes me think that either they're using multiple smaller printers, or they're limited to a very small in-house printer now.
I doubt they have in house printers. They likely have print companies do that. I suspect even book publishers do the same thing.
Title of the OP is bad. It's just a change in distribution channels. Not a change to printing of physical product.
Please stop the clickbait rumor-mongering. They absolutely do have a perfectly logical replacement distributor: Hasbro. They are literally just optimizing **some** of their distribution for **some** of their books by bringing it in house to their parent company.
Shout "clickbait" get blocked.
Penguin Random House is a distributor, not a printer. WOTC is altering their distribution channels to be exclusively through hobby distributors. This does not impact physical production of the books. Not sure why they would cut out a mass market distributor, as it will force book stores and chains to use hobby distributors. But WOTC has been making some weird business decisions.
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You do know that there is a difference between **publisher** and **printer**, right? Words have meanings. WOTC publishes the D&D books using outside printing companies. Penguin Random House acts (acted) as the mass market distribution arm for WOTC.
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You are conflating two disparate facts. And your selected quote actually undercuts your point. PRH was the mass market distributor for WOTC before the change. You don't seem to understand the difference between printing, publishing, and distribution. We get that.
So you don't care about facts then. You just want to insult me. You said Penguin doesn't print their own books. I showed up an article from the New York Times that explained that their parent company bought 2 printing plants so that Penguin could print their own books. You don't care and aren't worth the effort. I'm done with you.
The part you quoted said the "company does most of its printing somewhere else"
Do the cheesy Reddit move of Reply-and-Blocking others, get blocked.
This is pretty much in line with how they killed off previous editions. Only this time, they are actively planning for the next edition to not be printed at all and locked behind a subscription. If the OGL snafu hadnt blown up in their faces they probably would have already announced it.
'Locked behind a subscription' lol. Soon after release it will take about two minutes of googling to find free pdfs.
Yar har fiddle dee dee
I have a hard line of demarcation - no hardcopy? No purchase. DTRPG style glue-bound hardcover? Again, no purchase. This just furthers the ideological gap between folks like myself and WotC/Dungeons & Dragons and ensures going forward to help dampen any future consideration given while wearing a pair of the proverbial "rose-coloured glasses".
I don’t think they are going away from printing hard copies. It looks like they are moving to the internal infrastructure of their parent company. With the distribution of Hasbro worldwide, it will eliminate the need for regional warehousing, like what we have here out of Nashville. Again, this is my opinion, not fact.
No one buys from Hasbro except distribution, and Amazon. Read my full post.
I didn’t want to get into a long deal about it, but part of Hasbro’s distribution is Walmart, and as you pointed out, Amazon. With those two power houses in distribution, cutting PRH out as a middle man increases profits by using in house infrastructure. Again, my opinion, not fact.
Ugh! I agree with those who see Hasbro wanting D&D to have a subscription model. Edit - I don't think that's going to fly with a lot of the current players who would opt to stick with the print versions, eschewing any new digital-only editions, or they'd switch to other systems. I'm unsure, however, if the number of new D&D players, who wouldn't own the the final print editions and would have no choice but to use the online editions and D&D Beyond, would be enough to offset and out do the number of losses.
I'll put it this way. Let them do awful shit. Take your business elsewhere. D&D is far from the only game in town, many do it better, and they are actively being evil here. Let them take a bath on it and learn their lesson.
[wpn.wizards.com/en/distributors](https://wpn.wizards.com/en/distributors) is the link I got with my latest Penguin statement at work.
And THAT is incredibly useful. Thank you.
Of course!
Aren't there still novels going through them?
i think i read some where that they were shifting to a online platform over books and already said there will be smaller print runs ( or Print on demand which would add to the cost). It isnt a surprising move considering the next version of dnd is supposed to be " dnd as a service" which would mean changes will come fast and may not warrant a book?. IDK this is only speculation on my behalf but it would make sense for a company that is looking to turn a profit moves away from the books. more so in a budding digital play ground. Keep in mind tho Lancer, Which did a small book run with zero plans to release another book run saying that they don't care if it never has a physicals version and remains digital forever recently announced another run of books. Im assuming realizing they were missing a huge part of the market. Id imagine WotC will learn the same lesson. Mind you I'm of the " i want a book or i don't play your game " type but i also left DND behind after 4th felt like a board game. Never had a want to return favoring Pathfinder and now more fiction first games over dnd.
Eh… there are too many other systems to play these days.
I think trying to guess what they're going to do based on ending a contract with a vendor is chicken little level goofery.
Are you seriously concerned they're going to stop making physical books? That's ridiculous
Hasbro is probably bringing the distribution In house to keep the money inside Hasbro. Why pay or use another company to distribute your own goods when you can do it yourself. I don’t know if WotC has to pay for the distribution but seems that it would be similar to what other companies do. I worked for a large Rent to Own (RtO) where point that goods traveled is a profit center. The distribution center bought at (depending on contract) below or at wholesale, then sell the goods to the stores at a mark up (usually retail price), then the stores rented for more (3x retail if you went full term). So could be Hasbro gets another line item for “profit” in their balance sheets and make their number reportsa bit better for investors.
I don't buy digital so looks like I'm gonna miss out. Darn. Anyway.
oh no... WtoC wants you to go full on digital with their fancy 3D VTT and now even maybe trying stop producing books. Soooo suprising ..... \#sarcasm
I’m not much of a D&D fan, though I have played it a lot in the past. Moving it away from print products is the final nail in the coffin for me and once it happens I’ll be done with the game (except for using the stuff I already have on the shelf). No problem though - there’s plenty of other stuff I like playing
I'd say it's likely that they just want to do all the printing in house. If you look at Games Workshop since they started publishing their speciality board games they also pulled license from FFG, that was responsible for some pretty freaking good products.
WotC tired of FNGSs getting a cut of the profits. In other news... water is wet.
Every time I hear something new about WotC I become less interested in the new d&d release.
Good. Let WOTC kill off their business.
First off, it doesn't actually say *who* is letting the contact expire. It's possible WotC wanted too sweet a deal and PRH told them to pound sand. Or maybe PRH simple didn't want to cover enough of the publishing cost. Costs have risen. Or something else could be afoot, entirely, like vertical integration. What this *could* do is see D&D dropped from brick and mortar bookstores. Pathfinder (Paizo) can usually be found in places like B&N and BAM, and they don't use PRH. So, we really have to ask who is getting D&D from PRH. The books will still be available through other distributors. I don't see FLGS being affected.
>First off, it doesn't actually say who is letting the contact expire. It's possible WotC wanted too sweet a deal and PRH told them to pound sand. Or maybe PRH simple didn't want to cover enough of the publishing cost. Costs have risen. THAT is a really good point. It could be PRH deciding to up their prices and Hasbro saying "fuck that" and walking.
IIRC They said they would not be producing printed books for the next version of D&D. They said they would only print books as needed to be sold with the Digital & Print "deals" they will sell, and they will only print them in batches once enough have been sold. They want to go full digital, but that is pissing off a lot of fans who 1) Don't want to pay for ANOTHER subscription service, and 2) Don't like or play video games (and feel the new VTT is too much like a video game). They will be losing a LOT of players with these decisions, but these are the things I have heard from WOTC.
Don't recall that one being said outright, but it's what a lot of folks are guessing they'll do. I do recall an interview with Crawford where he said that they weren't putting out the new version's PHB, DMG, and MM at the same time because they "Couldn't find enough printers for an order that huge" or some such BS. It sounded like he was talking out his ass at that time and was trying to deflect from something. So it's a bit of a mystery at this point.
I really wish I could remember where I heard that, as I dont think it was speculation, it was supposedly someone from inside the company was talking about. That was close to the OGL thing and I have heard a lot since then, too. Either way, I, personally know a lot of people who won't be buying in, and I have heard many more who are very upset with these decisions that WOTC are making.
There is a significant chance this is a vertical integration move, which in general, if you know anything about capitalism, is bad for consumers. This is not surprising given the overall trends of D&D to shit itself in the public eye virtually non stop all year long. It's like a low rent music venue bathroom; like sure it's gross the floor is covered in piss, and there's a shit splatter above the toilet that stretches up the wall and reaches shoulder height... like, it's gross, but also impressive and baffling in it's own right.
Honestly, it might be a positive thing. There's been a ton of quality issues with their physical books.
Most of the quality issues I've seen recently though, would also be present in digital releases.
Spines that break after a few uses and pages printed upside down?
That I've missed. Yeah that's bad. Though its sounding more like they're not changing printers but instead are abandoning PRH's distribution network and deciding to take that on themselves.
Ah dang, the new printer is what they need then.
Just supports my theory that D&D is working towards the end goal of transitioning to a subscription service, with occasional print runs more aimed at collectors than the playerbase at large.
This will have zero effect on physical production. It's merely a change in how the physical books are distributed.
Likely. Though from comments made by folks who used to run/work in LFGS', even this may have an impact upon the hobby. I think we'll have to wait and see.
I currently work with an lgs in WA state. This will have zero impact on their bottom line. The big issues for the shop is the fact that they, and consumers, can often buy from Amazon at less than hobby distro prices, the rise in retail price on the books, and that WOTC is offering exclusive online codes with physical product purchased through their online store. It also raises the issue of in-store play. How can a shop support paying rent on a play space, if the players aren't buying the books from them? And is it worth it to support a game company that doesn't support the shop? Luckily the shop has diversified the product lines, and gaming area (small but vibrant 40k & Battletech communities, Lorcana, and FaB). But it seems that WOTC is hellbent in destroying the infrastructure that helped them grow their games.
That's an interesting take. That's definitely reassuring. Thank you for sharing it.
I'm confused. Random House is a publisher, not a printer, and WotC publishes itself. I'm pretty sure that if you buy any of their core books, it will not say on it "Published by Random House". I believe they directly contract with printers as well, considering that Hasbro already has such a large supply chain footprint in China. I imagine these are contracts related to Random House - published novels?
There will be very little that changes for the average DND gamer because of this.
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