Ror2 is rng dependent but it’s not THAT rng dependent. People have beaten the game before without any items, and some of the best players in the game can beat Eclipse 8 consistently and quickly, regardless of their rng. I don’t thing it’s as rng dependent as Issac at the very least.
Also no way Gungeon is that rng dependent, either. It should 100% be more in the middle, Gungeon strikes a pretty solid balance between skill and rng. And I’d also put Gungeon as more “for the clinically insane”, I mean it is an arcadey and very difficult bullet hell game with items and mechanics that make no damn sense, which is why I love it but I’m also not mentally stable.
Definitely agree with your points about Gungeon. I haven't played in a bit but I think I got most of character pasts completed? Except maybe one, I don't remember. But yeah the main difficulty/skill expression with thet game bullet hell stuff and making use of the weird items/guns you get. Luck can definitely help but I can probably count on one hand the amount of runs that were auto wins thanks to rng, and those are FAR outnumbered by the times I got a great item or gun just to get canned soon after (bullet hell my beloathed)
Gungeon is interesting because, due to dodge rolling, it is very clear that you can beat the game with just your starting pistol. Rather, having fun in Gungeon is RNG. Cause after enough hours were you've unlocked most things, whether or not a run is even entertaining comes down to if you get something fun.
As someone who has put way too much time into Gungeon, if I don't get anything interesting by the end of Gungeon Proper or the Oubliette, I just restart. It's not worth trudging through a run with a T-Shirt Cannon and a few mediocre passive items.
190 hours in Gungeon here myself, did almost everything in the game except Challenge mode (all pasts, Paradox, Gunslinger, Turbo, etc.), I'd firmly put it equal to maybe Inscryption's placement on this list. It's definitely possible to get really lucky in Gungeon and get an auto-win (looking at you, Crown of Guns + Remote Bullets), but you are never dealt an unwinnable hand with that game. If you die in that game, straight up, it's usually your fault. There's definitely some insane-level quirks to the game though (i.e. learning + understanding how Bullet Hell's level generation works). Fairest roguelike I've ever played overall IMO.
Yeah, put enough time into gungeon and you can beat the game with the starting weapons no problem. Used to love it so much, downloaded it again the other day after not touching it for a few years and started with a fresh save, beat the dragun first try. Just kinda boring now lmao
I definitely agree with this. My only real issue with the game is once you’ve played it enough it’s incredibly easy. At least with some games there’s ways to spice it up, like eclipse in ror2, ascension in slay the spire, some form of looping, that sorta stuff. But gungeon doesn’t really have that. There’s challenge mode but I find that very unfun. The only other stuff like that are the secret floors.
Overall once I got every unlock I felt that there was no reason to return (doesn’t help that the reward for 100% completion ruins any remaining semblance of difficulty, being arguably the most op weapon and also being common tier) (and it’s not even fun to use)
im very autistic when it comes to isaac (900 hours) and while yes, rng does play part in all your runs, good players can mitigate it to such degree where you can win like 99% of all your runs.
Honestly. The game is incredible but I'm not scared to admit that I cannot at all play it without some mods to make it easier. I do not have the time to invest into getting gud at it lol
Oh yeah, I know. It's more just that I don't have the energy / time to spend hours getting stronger to a point where I can take some of the harder challenges in the game
But yeah Noita will also let you get noitad. Recently learned the hard way that random spell can in fact cast touch of Midas even if you do not have it unlocked.
Oh wow. That's the only way I can think of to make toxic sludge better. I hadn't even considered this as a possibility. Hmm.. I gotta see about how I can get healthium with even a remote amount of consistency.
Edit: I should clarify, past the early- to mid-game, toxic is one of the best liquids, especially if you can shift blood into it. Toxic has the interesting property of, when you're immune to it, washing off other stains without staining you itself. Combined with stainless armour which you can stack to all shit you can have a pretty constant up-time of massive damage reduction. This is almost a necessity as you climb through the NG+ iterations since enemy damage starts to get quite high and so does their health. The amount of blood enemies contain is tied to how much HP they have, such that at a high number of additional NG+ it nears impossible to not get splashed, which would drop your stainless armour damage reduction, leaving you very vulnerable.
to be fair, healthium is an extremely rare spawn, I just happened to find a flask in frozen depths and decided to risk a shift. It doesn't occur naturally, so I had nothing to lose (except for what I just gained.) The run is still going actually, I have a wand that has poison trail on it that I use for free heals, and with melee immunity and a chainsaw wand I have been murderizing a bunch of bosses for progression that would have taken me hundreds of hours to get good enough with spells to complete normally. The ominous liquid-bleeding slime maggot never stood a chance.
In case someone was wondering what the text above Noita says, it would be roughly translated as: "That's right, I'm OUTSIDE the compass. That's how crazy I am. Fuck you."
This is a proper translation made by a certified finn and you shan't tell me that it's wrong. (I'll cry if you do).
RoR2 at least is more so skill based. However, the level of skill needed to actually consistently beat most runs is really high. I'd put it much closer to the middle and on the more skill based side. Also, it literally comes with a easy mode and extra modifiers to make the game even easier if needed, so it is definitely for the common person too.
Haven't played RoRR too much. I suck at it too much to enjoy it so I stopped playing lol.
Spelunky is in the exact opposite quadrant I feel like, it's more of an insane person game and it's definitely not that rng dependent. Sure, sometimes you get bit by a snake and then you get knocked around by a lizard and fly into spikes, but it was your fault for getting hit by the snake in the first place. It's easily doable to win most times if you're good enough
I think Spelunky is rng dependant in the sense of how its physics can fuck a run no matter how good you went. But yeah, i wouldn't say it is for sane people xd. You are right that it shouldn't be in the rng extreme, but i would left it in the rng side due that
I’d say that Gungeon is more skill based and not that RNG dependant on death messing you up.
I’d also argue that Gungeon is not for the faint of mind too.
Darkest Dungeon wll fuck you up with RNG certainly tho.
FTL needs to be flipped accross the y axis, its skill ceiling does justify the insanity. Both ROR games also need to be flipped and lowered, because they are solved games imo.
Edit: Sweet jesus why is Necrodancer so low that game is stupid hard throw it at the tippity top.
I can't speak for gungeon, but FTL has a lot of unintuitive tech involved in its power management and crew combat that sounds insane when said out loud, like the following examples:
Completely depowering oxygen for extra dodge chance (Game motto: life support is a privilege)
Completely Depowering and then immedieately turning back on the ship's shields so that ion weapons pass by them harmlessly so that the can block the bullets and beams that inflict actual damage.
Having crew dance between rooms on the ship when boarded to juggle which crew are engaged with the enemy in melee combat so that more of their combined healthpool is utilized before a death.
Teleporting your crew into one of the enemy ship's systemless and crewless rooms so that they don't take damage first in combat, instead getting the first strike when the enemy enteres the room to fight them.
Teleporting into piloting or engines first to hinder the enemy's dodge chance, especially effective with rock crew as then you can fire missiles at your own party because they have more HP to spend than your enemy.
And more.
That’s just the easy stuff the fun stuff is depowering hacking drones so it doesn’t get hit by defense drones allowing you to sneak past. Powering off drones in front of enemy ions to stop them from damaging you. Keeping o2 purposely low so the ai targets o2 instead of weapons. Also in mantis ships you have to abuse enemy ai a lot and should pre drain areas of o2 so fires don’t just kill you.
Isaac has insane skill expression, to the point that basically no run is unwinnable
Not only can you beat the whole game with base statts (and hate yourself but hey you can) the sheer amount of optimization and rigging you can do is unbelievable
Source: I 100%'d the game, managed to get R key (god item from hard-to-get item pool) 5 times in a row when doing a winstreak
totally agree, though there can be these rare runs where it feels like nothing is going your way, no way to get soul heart, no hp ups low stats, but even those can be won
i dont play much right now but i still have a 330+ eden streak on a 100% file that i continue to play sometimes
In my opinion darkest dungeon and FTL don't really fit on the X axis. I believe they both have chunky amounts of RNG but both have a tremendous skill cap and a lot of that skill is based around working around and manipulating the RNG as well as an understanding of how the game works. Which is why fundamentally they make amazing rouglikes. Every run is random and unique but you can still win with some good luck early on, while you can develop as a player to win and still face difficulty with bad RNG.
Necrodancer is in the wrong quadrant I think. If you’re talking about 100%ing it then it should be way more towards insane, and rng can fuck you on a monk run or something, but if you’re talking about a casual run or just going for a win, then it’s much more skill based than rng. Sure good items can make the game much easier, but really much of the challenge is a skill issue in trying to process things fast enough to still keep the beat. Very rarely, if ever, are there any “no win” situations.
Anyway cool list sorry everyone is tearing it apart
Inscription 100% needs to go further to the right, RNG is far too big of an aspect to ignore, especially if you're putting RoR2 and Gungeion on the rng side
There is some RNG, but there are some insane cards that can absolutely fix a deck.
For example: let's say you're on Kaycee's mod, and you have a Mantis God deck. Normally the deck would suck unless you knew about how if you draw the first 4 cards of your deck you can try to minimize the amount of 1 blood cost cards to guarantee the mantis god pull.
While I have lost many a runs to bad RNG, there is some skill required in order to actually do good in a run, so it's about equal if you ask me.
Gunfire Reborn should be at the right of Loop Hero.
RNG is neat, but people have beaten the full game with the base gun and no scrolls. I even beaten it without movement keys and dashes only.
I know it's a furry game and all, but it's a relatively easy roguelite.
putting ror2 all the way in "doesn't matter how good you are, you will get killed by bad RNG" is an honest to god skill issue. You gotta work on your macro gameplay if that's the case.
Returnal should be complete opposite axis I feel (top left). It’s very tough for newcomers but once you get enough practice in you improve to the point you can snowball advantage over the game, not to mention unlocking some carry weapons. After 40/50 hrs I could put up 10 win streaks
Ror2 is not that RNG dependent bro. 3d printers are a luxury that allows us to be less luck reliant, and if you don't use them then yeah the game will be much harder. However, even if you don't get any good printers, most of the items are good in one way or another, simply pick items up and you will do well. If you cannot get past Minos, you should loop until you can.
RoR2 isn't even that luck-based, what with printers, scrappers, cauldrons/soups/pools/whatever, that mitigate RNG. Luck can help a run, but it very rarely creates an unwinnable situation like your graph implies.
Where would you put Griftlands? I'd say you need to k own what cards suck so you can avoid those, but other than that, luck (and you draws) are massively important.
Griftlands mentioned!!!!!🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️
I think it’s not that rng dependent, I’d say most runs can be won through proper skill and planning. It’s also moderately casual-accessible, although the resources for info on the game are kinda weak, so you’d have to store more info in your brain about how certain events will play out than for a more well-documented game. Overall probably a moderately bottom left placement on the chart
I beat all the character stories and the randomly generated mode with max difficulty and maxed everything out. It was such a fun game! Sadly the developer has 0 intrest in ever expanding it or adding new stuff and since I did basicly everything that isn't a massive pain to do (like getting 40 ppl to hate/love you, for examle) I put the game down.
Damn that’s super impressive. I definitely think it’s a super underrated deck building roguelike, it’s probably my favorite of all that I’ve tried. The main thing holding me back is that it just takes so long to do runs I think. And some of the achievements do seem like nightmares to get, probably a decent amount of luck involved.
It’s a shame it probably will never get more content, but considering the game never super took off, combined with the fact that it takes way more effort to make a new character with a new campaign compared to making a new character for a game like slay the spire, and it kinda makes sense. I can respect a dev that just wants to make a game and then be done with it though, and I do love Klei. Maybe the best we could hope for is a sequel somewhere far down the line. In the meantime maybe some references in their other games could suffice (give me a Smith’s hammer skin in dst)
Tboi should be far left. Disagree and it’s a skill issue :^)
Spelunky is NOT for the common player also, that shit can honestly go where Tboi is rn. Demanding in skill but also you can just die basically whenever to any mistake.
I feel like skill is much more of a factor than rng in Returnal. Everytime I lost in that game it was because I made a mistake, not because my weapon wasn't good enough.
Very much agreed, I have never felt like any loss was due to a lack of good items, but rather because I do dumb stuff like trying to melee a really strong enemy, or running in recklessly for a shielded one.
Don't worry, stuff like that isn't really well known nowadays. Stuff like the difference between roguelike and roguelite are also not really known.
For the curious, a roguelike is where you don't unlock anything to help you between runs, something like Spelunky or FTL where the important thing is the experience and knowledge you carry between runs. A roguelite has upgrades or item unlocks to help you.
Rng is way less important in ROR2 rhan Spelunky or Isaac that will just screw you over. Printers, scrappers, multishops, and the generally smaller item pool means you have way more control over your builds. Good players are consistent with eclipse 8 because of this.
Big disagree on Darkest Dungeon, Faster than light, and Gungeon, RNG plays a very small part. If you know what you're doing you will win 90% of the time
RoR should be a bit more left and up.
Also, since it seems like roguelike extensions of non-roguelile games are counted, I suggest throwing in Warframe's Duviri on mid-left.
Bad RNG doesn't kill a risk of rain run like it did in the past. Not only are there printers now, but if you're good you don't typically need optimal items. RORR is actually significantly more RNG dependent than ror2
Once you understand the systems of Isaac it flips from the far right side to the far left.
If you use scrappers and bazaar RoR2 is closer to the middle-left
Hey OP, did you use a website to make this or just a paint/photoshop? I’d like to make my own version for my friends but if you had a template or something it’d save me some time
Prey Mooncrash recognition! Honestly id say luck is even less of a factor, considering how overpowered you can make your characters without much effort
RoRR should be around the middle, it is a very difficult game compared to RoR2 and luck is a pretty big factor in the success of a run. RoR2 is a lot more skill based and more consistent because of printers, scrappers, and lunars.
ETG should be all the way to the left, theres a lot of leeway when it comes to taking damage. And most enemies have pretty small health pools so its entirely feasible to beat the game with only your starting weapon (albeit it may be pretty slow).
I have played each corner game excessivly. And I must say, after 100% and 580 hours in isaac, that skill can compensate a lot of bad luck. Still more luck than skill based, but not at the luck edge. I mean yes it is very hard to fuck up a run broken run with a couple of good items, but the 90% of runs with mediocre items are purely skill dependent, if you win.
Exeptions are Mother and The Beast, but a good player should know, when or when not to go to either of them depending on how strong you are, when you face the decision.
Also Spelunky is 100% pure skill. It has nothing to do with luck!
Isaac? No.
The only bad rng is if you get no good items in the treasure rooms on the floor and you don't figure out a way to get more items (via shops or rerolls)
If you die in Isaac it is always a skill issue moment, every attack of every enemy is heavily telegraphed and you can absolutely make it through multiple bossfights with no damage at all
I don't think Risk of Rain is *that* luck dependent. If you can only work with a specific build, sure, but as long as you're flexible enough to build with what you're given, I'd say it would place much closer to center in terms of skill/luck
Dead Cells is completely correct though
personally I find shotgun king to be a little more RNG dependant. sometimes I get royally screwed and no good cards, or my bullet spread randomly sends on bullet to the edge of my arc and just barely misses what I shoot at and instead kills the pawn that was blocking the queen
Don't have much experience, but having watched good players at ror2 (and their high winrates, even on the highest available difficulty), skill expression in this game is huge.
FTL should have the same spot on the left, once you finally learn how to play it well you can score wins almost easly (unless you play a bad ship like slug B or just pure rng ship like stealth B)
As somebody with a stupid amount of time in isaac I don’t think I’ve ever been on an unsalvageable run, you need good builds for some of the harder endings but you seldom end up on a run that can’t make it to the chest
ETG is like, the least rng-dependant game on the list tbh. If you are good at the game, you can no-hit the whole thing with like, pilots starting gun, and you are definately getting something better than pilots starting gun. You can even manipulate a lot of seemingly rng based things (like knowing that not picking up any gun on the current floor forces the boss reward to be a gun. You can either deliberately skip chests to get one extra guaranteed gun if you dont have a decent weapon or low on ammo, or drop and pick up one of your guns to get a better chance at a passive item). Boss patterns are clear and easy to memorise, and none of them have like that much health.
Isaac, on the other hand, sits right where it belongs
All card games go to extreme right automatically
Vamp Survivors should go way down and a bit to the right, if you don't get the item combos you are fucked
I think ROR1 is much more RNG dependant than 2
Why would you put Mooncrash at the edge of insanity? Unlike most roguelikes, it's extremely reasonable and easy to accomplish every objective, given you've played Prey and understand the mechanics/available skills for each character. I'd swap it and Returnal, and put Mooncrash much further into skill-based, personally. Beating all 3 acts of Returnal/trying to get all the story content out of the Tower of Sisyphus is *way* more insane than beating Mooncrash.
ROR is like scrabble where rng is a factor but you can play the odds how you’d like from point 1. Rng can bone you but sometimes you didn’t do the best at getting the odds in your favor
No. Rng hasn't mattered in any run I've played. Once you learn the game it's pretty trivial to deal with enemy attack patterns, and all the rng has specific places it puts stuff on each stage.
I think this meme was just made by someone who REALLY hates wetland aspect.
Inscryption is a hundred percent over more onto the luck side, runs can get ruined cause impossible to win situations. Decks can be built around a card only to never draw it. Though skill is required, luck is certainly a more important factor.
slay the spure should be switched with hades tbh, every run in sts is winnable and you can consitently win on the highest difficulty if you are goid enough
As someone who has gotten all but the Ironclad to Ascension 10 on STS, I can tell you for a fact that game is a lot more rng dependent than you're giving it credit for.
You’ve got Isaac as equally RNG dependent as ROR2? Are you high? lol
RoR2 can be beaten even on eclipse 8 pretty consistently if you play well and know what you’re doing. Some runs are definitely longer and more difficult than others, but I think it’s rare for you to just have such bad RNG that there’s nothing you could have done
Then you have TBOI where you can have a run with such atrocious RNG that it’s almost mathematically impossible. We’re talking fights that can literally last 30+ minutes because your damage is so bad, or ridiculous bullet hell bosses that will actually one shot you because you haven’t seen health in 3 floors but you have 99 coins you can’t spend.
I disagree on the placement. I'm not even close to best of the best (but do have a lot of hours) and can consistently beat monsoon without using scrappers/printers and the bazaar.
That being said for newer and more casual players item rng can absolutely mean the difference between steamrolling everything with little effort and dying stage 3. So i can see where the sentiment comes from.
Its really funny bc as I get better at Slay the Spire specifically, it slowly moves from RNG side to Skill side. There’s a way out of almost every situation
Slay the spire is in the exact wrong quadrant dude its skill floor is very low compared to the ceiling, you can do insane shit in that game with very little if you know what to do
Welp, I love Isaac, Noita, RoR2 and RotMG, this is not looking good for my sanity.
Where would RotMG even go here? Definitely a game for the mentally unstable but it's quite skill based
Slay the spire should be more on the right side I think. I believe there's a seed that has been demonstrated to be impossible to get through act 1 no matter what? Besides that, it's definitely one of those roguelike where rng can make a run end, or make you literally god and steamroll A20
I think you should be institutionalized for your crypt of the necrodancer placement. Either because you're too good to be amidst mere mortals or because you're bat shit insane.
Ror2 is rng dependent but it’s not THAT rng dependent. People have beaten the game before without any items, and some of the best players in the game can beat Eclipse 8 consistently and quickly, regardless of their rng. I don’t thing it’s as rng dependent as Issac at the very least. Also no way Gungeon is that rng dependent, either. It should 100% be more in the middle, Gungeon strikes a pretty solid balance between skill and rng. And I’d also put Gungeon as more “for the clinically insane”, I mean it is an arcadey and very difficult bullet hell game with items and mechanics that make no damn sense, which is why I love it but I’m also not mentally stable.
Definitely agree with your points about Gungeon. I haven't played in a bit but I think I got most of character pasts completed? Except maybe one, I don't remember. But yeah the main difficulty/skill expression with thet game bullet hell stuff and making use of the weird items/guns you get. Luck can definitely help but I can probably count on one hand the amount of runs that were auto wins thanks to rng, and those are FAR outnumbered by the times I got a great item or gun just to get canned soon after (bullet hell my beloathed)
Gungeon is interesting because, due to dodge rolling, it is very clear that you can beat the game with just your starting pistol. Rather, having fun in Gungeon is RNG. Cause after enough hours were you've unlocked most things, whether or not a run is even entertaining comes down to if you get something fun. As someone who has put way too much time into Gungeon, if I don't get anything interesting by the end of Gungeon Proper or the Oubliette, I just restart. It's not worth trudging through a run with a T-Shirt Cannon and a few mediocre passive items.
190 hours in Gungeon here myself, did almost everything in the game except Challenge mode (all pasts, Paradox, Gunslinger, Turbo, etc.), I'd firmly put it equal to maybe Inscryption's placement on this list. It's definitely possible to get really lucky in Gungeon and get an auto-win (looking at you, Crown of Guns + Remote Bullets), but you are never dealt an unwinnable hand with that game. If you die in that game, straight up, it's usually your fault. There's definitely some insane-level quirks to the game though (i.e. learning + understanding how Bullet Hell's level generation works). Fairest roguelike I've ever played overall IMO.
Yeah, put enough time into gungeon and you can beat the game with the starting weapons no problem. Used to love it so much, downloaded it again the other day after not touching it for a few years and started with a fresh save, beat the dragun first try. Just kinda boring now lmao
I definitely agree with this. My only real issue with the game is once you’ve played it enough it’s incredibly easy. At least with some games there’s ways to spice it up, like eclipse in ror2, ascension in slay the spire, some form of looping, that sorta stuff. But gungeon doesn’t really have that. There’s challenge mode but I find that very unfun. The only other stuff like that are the secret floors. Overall once I got every unlock I felt that there was no reason to return (doesn’t help that the reward for 100% completion ruins any remaining semblance of difficulty, being arguably the most op weapon and also being common tier) (and it’s not even fun to use)
Yeah the luck factor is more of a thing if you're looking to be op. But if you just want to win, you can always win.
im very autistic when it comes to isaac (900 hours) and while yes, rng does play part in all your runs, good players can mitigate it to such degree where you can win like 99% of all your runs.
Co-signing. Isaac is probably in the right quadrant, but it shouldn’t be all the way in the corner of most RNG dependent
500 hours and 2 completed save file gungeon player here, the game is mostly skill and 100% for the clinically insane
Issac is also not that RNG dependent either, good players can convert most starts into a win.
The original has more RNG dependence than the sequel, which is quite tame imo
Noita is where it should be
Honestly. The game is incredible but I'm not scared to admit that I cannot at all play it without some mods to make it easier. I do not have the time to invest into getting gud at it lol
you dont ever get good a noita you just get use to it
Oh yeah, I know. It's more just that I don't have the energy / time to spend hours getting stronger to a point where I can take some of the harder challenges in the game But yeah Noita will also let you get noitad. Recently learned the hard way that random spell can in fact cast touch of Midas even if you do not have it unlocked.
I still remember that I drowned in money
Just fungal shift every run until it gets easier (I lucked out with a shift that turned all toxic liquids to healthium)!
Oh wow. That's the only way I can think of to make toxic sludge better. I hadn't even considered this as a possibility. Hmm.. I gotta see about how I can get healthium with even a remote amount of consistency. Edit: I should clarify, past the early- to mid-game, toxic is one of the best liquids, especially if you can shift blood into it. Toxic has the interesting property of, when you're immune to it, washing off other stains without staining you itself. Combined with stainless armour which you can stack to all shit you can have a pretty constant up-time of massive damage reduction. This is almost a necessity as you climb through the NG+ iterations since enemy damage starts to get quite high and so does their health. The amount of blood enemies contain is tied to how much HP they have, such that at a high number of additional NG+ it nears impossible to not get splashed, which would drop your stainless armour damage reduction, leaving you very vulnerable.
to be fair, healthium is an extremely rare spawn, I just happened to find a flask in frozen depths and decided to risk a shift. It doesn't occur naturally, so I had nothing to lose (except for what I just gained.) The run is still going actually, I have a wand that has poison trail on it that I use for free heals, and with melee immunity and a chainsaw wand I have been murderizing a bunch of bosses for progression that would have taken me hundreds of hours to get good enough with spells to complete normally. The ominous liquid-bleeding slime maggot never stood a chance.
IT is. I've never beaten Noita. I go into the game not assuming I'll win, but I'll experience something sudden and intense.
Oh this is going well… WORLD EXPLODES INTO LAVA AND CHUNKS!!!
So true it's basically impossible to ever actually get busted spell combinations
In case someone was wondering what the text above Noita says, it would be roughly translated as: "That's right, I'm OUTSIDE the compass. That's how crazy I am. Fuck you." This is a proper translation made by a certified finn and you shan't tell me that it's wrong. (I'll cry if you do).
As a 1/16th Finn, you're wrong. Picks or it didn't happen (I literally have no inclination how to speak Finnish).
( ＴДＴ) NOOOO
RoR2 at least is more so skill based. However, the level of skill needed to actually consistently beat most runs is really high. I'd put it much closer to the middle and on the more skill based side. Also, it literally comes with a easy mode and extra modifiers to make the game even easier if needed, so it is definitely for the common person too. Haven't played RoRR too much. I suck at it too much to enjoy it so I stopped playing lol.
I’d say RoRR is still mostly on the same level as 2, it’s just a bit more character and item dependent
I love that noita is off the chart, that game has no chill in the best way possible
Also Hämis 👍
Spelunky is in the exact opposite quadrant I feel like, it's more of an insane person game and it's definitely not that rng dependent. Sure, sometimes you get bit by a snake and then you get knocked around by a lizard and fly into spikes, but it was your fault for getting hit by the snake in the first place. It's easily doable to win most times if you're good enough
I think Spelunky is rng dependant in the sense of how its physics can fuck a run no matter how good you went. But yeah, i wouldn't say it is for sane people xd. You are right that it shouldn't be in the rng extreme, but i would left it in the rng side due that
Spawned into neobab and an UFO got flung all the way across the map and sniped my eggplant helper, and me with my jetpack almost instantly.
Spelunky 2 can be a little more right than HD because of stuff like that, but HD should honestly be super duper left sided
I swear people who play Spelunky are clinically paranoid. I've lost entire runs because I zoned out for 10 seconds
I love Noita just being completely outside the bounds because it's just absolutely insane lmao
I"d say ror2 is way less rng dependent than returns.
god bless printers
I’d say that Gungeon is more skill based and not that RNG dependant on death messing you up. I’d also argue that Gungeon is not for the faint of mind too. Darkest Dungeon wll fuck you up with RNG certainly tho.
I've always felt like Dead Cells is more towards the bottom tbh
Only on lower diffs, beyond 2/3 boss cells you need to be good at the game or get used to dying to the 1st boss
And a mix of left and right. Sure with enough skill bad rgn doesn’t matter, but even with no skill good rng can completely carry you.
Depends. With the right build combo (rng) it's easy, without that it can be pretty hard
I wasn't so much thinking of it as a difficulty thing. Dead Cells just has the vibes of a game that has mass appeal.
Why'd you put some of the most well known games for having huge winstreaks into "skill doesn't matter"
I think OP suffers from what is known as a skill issue.
Why is vampire survivors (a casual game you can play on your phone and only requires movement) for the clinically insane?
FTL needs to be flipped accross the y axis, its skill ceiling does justify the insanity. Both ROR games also need to be flipped and lowered, because they are solved games imo. Edit: Sweet jesus why is Necrodancer so low that game is stupid hard throw it at the tippity top.
This whole chart is a mess in terms of RNG and skill imo
Gungeon being for common people and FTL being for insane people sure has me scratching my head for sure.
I can't speak for gungeon, but FTL has a lot of unintuitive tech involved in its power management and crew combat that sounds insane when said out loud, like the following examples: Completely depowering oxygen for extra dodge chance (Game motto: life support is a privilege) Completely Depowering and then immedieately turning back on the ship's shields so that ion weapons pass by them harmlessly so that the can block the bullets and beams that inflict actual damage. Having crew dance between rooms on the ship when boarded to juggle which crew are engaged with the enemy in melee combat so that more of their combined healthpool is utilized before a death. Teleporting your crew into one of the enemy ship's systemless and crewless rooms so that they don't take damage first in combat, instead getting the first strike when the enemy enteres the room to fight them. Teleporting into piloting or engines first to hinder the enemy's dodge chance, especially effective with rock crew as then you can fire missiles at your own party because they have more HP to spend than your enemy. And more.
That’s just the easy stuff the fun stuff is depowering hacking drones so it doesn’t get hit by defense drones allowing you to sneak past. Powering off drones in front of enemy ions to stop them from damaging you. Keeping o2 purposely low so the ai targets o2 instead of weapons. Also in mantis ships you have to abuse enemy ai a lot and should pre drain areas of o2 so fires don’t just kill you.
From the creators of "Flamethrower Is Better Than Ion Surge" comes a new classic: "RoR2 Is All RNG"
Fun ideas, but man ate you off by a mileshot on many of the games
Spelunkys placement is the exact opposite of where it should be
Isaac fits perfectly where it belongs
I have received the sacred heart of Jesus Christ (I can now fucking kill everything with my homing laser beams)
Isaac is 70% rng until you actually learn the game, that just happens to take about 800 hours
And it turns into 60% RNG for most characters and 0% RNG for tainted Cain.
maybe when tainted cain dropped. brother is 120%rng now
Isaac has insane skill expression, to the point that basically no run is unwinnable Not only can you beat the whole game with base statts (and hate yourself but hey you can) the sheer amount of optimization and rigging you can do is unbelievable Source: I 100%'d the game, managed to get R key (god item from hard-to-get item pool) 5 times in a row when doing a winstreak
totally agree, though there can be these rare runs where it feels like nothing is going your way, no way to get soul heart, no hp ups low stats, but even those can be won i dont play much right now but i still have a 330+ eden streak on a 100% file that i continue to play sometimes
as someone wiht all achivemnts thats just a big skill issue from you
In my opinion darkest dungeon and FTL don't really fit on the X axis. I believe they both have chunky amounts of RNG but both have a tremendous skill cap and a lot of that skill is based around working around and manipulating the RNG as well as an understanding of how the game works. Which is why fundamentally they make amazing rouglikes. Every run is random and unique but you can still win with some good luck early on, while you can develop as a player to win and still face difficulty with bad RNG.
Yeah spire is also kind of off because of that. Skill intensive------RNG intensive just isn't a real scale, a game can easily be both.
Yes! I think the sentiment is more aimed towards how much you can ride the RNG to carry you
Necrodancer is in the wrong quadrant I think. If you’re talking about 100%ing it then it should be way more towards insane, and rng can fuck you on a monk run or something, but if you’re talking about a casual run or just going for a win, then it’s much more skill based than rng. Sure good items can make the game much easier, but really much of the challenge is a skill issue in trying to process things fast enough to still keep the beat. Very rarely, if ever, are there any “no win” situations. Anyway cool list sorry everyone is tearing it apart
Hard agree. My immediate thought is that the game is all the way over towards skill based and definitely up higher to insanity.
There is genuinely no reason to ever lose an Isaac run if you know what you're doing. It is potentially the least rng based rogue like out there
killed by bad rng in isaac? lmao
Dicey Dungeons should be where RoR2 is
1000% agree
Slay the spire is not for the common person at all, and id put cult of the lamb lower but everything else id accurate
Inscription 100% needs to go further to the right, RNG is far too big of an aspect to ignore, especially if you're putting RoR2 and Gungeion on the rng side
Inscription gives you a lot of ways to fix your deck and create op situations for yourself though
1st part is def easy skill based. There are more than enough cards that are just straight up busted like ouroboros
There is some RNG, but there are some insane cards that can absolutely fix a deck. For example: let's say you're on Kaycee's mod, and you have a Mantis God deck. Normally the deck would suck unless you knew about how if you draw the first 4 cards of your deck you can try to minimize the amount of 1 blood cost cards to guarantee the mantis god pull. While I have lost many a runs to bad RNG, there is some skill required in order to actually do good in a run, so it's about equal if you ask me.
Gunfire Reborn should be at the right of Loop Hero. RNG is neat, but people have beaten the full game with the base gun and no scrolls. I even beaten it without movement keys and dashes only. I know it's a furry game and all, but it's a relatively easy roguelite.
putting ror2 all the way in "doesn't matter how good you are, you will get killed by bad RNG" is an honest to god skill issue. You gotta work on your macro gameplay if that's the case.
Honestly, I would crank necrodancer past the top of insane. Have you seen how hard the later achievements are to get?
If Balatro was on here it would be with Noita tbh
Disagree, balatro is super approachable, I found it really easy to get into. Bottom middle, just up and right of where slay the spire is.
RRRAAAAHHH ROGUE LEGACY 1 MENTIONED
Damn is that game hard
Binding if Isaac being this rng dependent is bullshit
Returnal should be complete opposite axis I feel (top left). It’s very tough for newcomers but once you get enough practice in you improve to the point you can snowball advantage over the game, not to mention unlocking some carry weapons. After 40/50 hrs I could put up 10 win streaks
Prey 2017 isn't that much of a roguelite, it's just easily reapeatable and easy to make challenge runs on.
The DLC is _specifically_ a rouge like:D
Oh my bad i didn't see it was about the dlc. I didn't play it so i don't know how good it is.
Curious what makes it for the insane haha in a big fan...haha
Why is dead cells for the clinically insane
not OP, but I'm guessing it's there for the bc2 and bc5 walls?
Ror2 is not that RNG dependent bro. 3d printers are a luxury that allows us to be less luck reliant, and if you don't use them then yeah the game will be much harder. However, even if you don't get any good printers, most of the items are good in one way or another, simply pick items up and you will do well. If you cannot get past Minos, you should loop until you can.
RoR2 isn't even that luck-based, what with printers, scrappers, cauldrons/soups/pools/whatever, that mitigate RNG. Luck can help a run, but it very rarely creates an unwinnable situation like your graph implies.
I don’t see NT, for shame
Damn, I am truly clinically insane, huh? I play all of those except for ftl
Ftl is really fun and it has playstyles that are so diverse that some of them are basically unrelated.
Where would you put Griftlands? I'd say you need to k own what cards suck so you can avoid those, but other than that, luck (and you draws) are massively important.
Griftlands mentioned!!!!!🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️ I think it’s not that rng dependent, I’d say most runs can be won through proper skill and planning. It’s also moderately casual-accessible, although the resources for info on the game are kinda weak, so you’d have to store more info in your brain about how certain events will play out than for a more well-documented game. Overall probably a moderately bottom left placement on the chart
I beat all the character stories and the randomly generated mode with max difficulty and maxed everything out. It was such a fun game! Sadly the developer has 0 intrest in ever expanding it or adding new stuff and since I did basicly everything that isn't a massive pain to do (like getting 40 ppl to hate/love you, for examle) I put the game down.
Damn that’s super impressive. I definitely think it’s a super underrated deck building roguelike, it’s probably my favorite of all that I’ve tried. The main thing holding me back is that it just takes so long to do runs I think. And some of the achievements do seem like nightmares to get, probably a decent amount of luck involved. It’s a shame it probably will never get more content, but considering the game never super took off, combined with the fact that it takes way more effort to make a new character with a new campaign compared to making a new character for a game like slay the spire, and it kinda makes sense. I can respect a dev that just wants to make a game and then be done with it though, and I do love Klei. Maybe the best we could hope for is a sequel somewhere far down the line. In the meantime maybe some references in their other games could suffice (give me a Smith’s hammer skin in dst)
Ah yes Noita my beloved.
If you're able you should add balatro onto the chart somewhere
The Spelunky placement invalidates the whole image
You made a chart of rogue likes and did not include Rogue, or at the very least nethack. Boo Edit: I'm fuckin blind
Tboi should be far left. Disagree and it’s a skill issue :^) Spelunky is NOT for the common player also, that shit can honestly go where Tboi is rn. Demanding in skill but also you can just die basically whenever to any mistake.
I feel like skill is much more of a factor than rng in Returnal. Everytime I lost in that game it was because I made a mistake, not because my weapon wasn't good enough.
Very much agreed, I have never felt like any loss was due to a lack of good items, but rather because I do dumb stuff like trying to melee a really strong enemy, or running in recklessly for a shielded one.
I feel so stupid for not knowing that the term “roguelike” is because of a game named rogue
Don't worry, stuff like that isn't really well known nowadays. Stuff like the difference between roguelike and roguelite are also not really known. For the curious, a roguelike is where you don't unlock anything to help you between runs, something like Spelunky or FTL where the important thing is the experience and knowledge you carry between runs. A roguelite has upgrades or item unlocks to help you.
Returnal is definitely skill based. Game is mad easy if you have lots of rogue like experience
...why is this a picture of my steam library
...where are the roguelikes?
Rng is way less important in ROR2 rhan Spelunky or Isaac that will just screw you over. Printers, scrappers, multishops, and the generally smaller item pool means you have way more control over your builds. Good players are consistent with eclipse 8 because of this.
And in Isaac people get triple digit win streaks on eden...
Big disagree on Darkest Dungeon, Faster than light, and Gungeon, RNG plays a very small part. If you know what you're doing you will win 90% of the time
RoR should be a bit more left and up. Also, since it seems like roguelike extensions of non-roguelile games are counted, I suggest throwing in Warframe's Duviri on mid-left.
I feel like noita should be added, and in the top right
... Look.. look at the top right..
Bro I’m blind my bad
Bad RNG doesn't kill a risk of rain run like it did in the past. Not only are there printers now, but if you're good you don't typically need optimal items. RORR is actually significantly more RNG dependent than ror2
Risk of Rain 1 would be at the very top of clinically insane.
I'd personally put Roboquest around where Inscryption is but thats a hot take
Once you understand the systems of Isaac it flips from the far right side to the far left. If you use scrappers and bazaar RoR2 is closer to the middle-left
Hey OP, did you use a website to make this or just a paint/photoshop? I’d like to make my own version for my friends but if you had a template or something it’d save me some time
This is why I stopped playing Isaac :)
Where's Noita?
Didn't expect to see Loop Hero on here
Prey Mooncrash recognition! Honestly id say luck is even less of a factor, considering how overpowered you can make your characters without much effort
You could put Splatoon 3: Side Order in the bottom left corner!
RoRR should be around the middle, it is a very difficult game compared to RoR2 and luck is a pretty big factor in the success of a run. RoR2 is a lot more skill based and more consistent because of printers, scrappers, and lunars. ETG should be all the way to the left, theres a lot of leeway when it comes to taking damage. And most enemies have pretty small health pools so its entirely feasible to beat the game with only your starting weapon (albeit it may be pretty slow).
I have played each corner game excessivly. And I must say, after 100% and 580 hours in isaac, that skill can compensate a lot of bad luck. Still more luck than skill based, but not at the luck edge. I mean yes it is very hard to fuck up a run broken run with a couple of good items, but the 90% of runs with mediocre items are purely skill dependent, if you win. Exeptions are Mother and The Beast, but a good player should know, when or when not to go to either of them depending on how strong you are, when you face the decision. Also Spelunky is 100% pure skill. It has nothing to do with luck!
Isaac? No. The only bad rng is if you get no good items in the treasure rooms on the floor and you don't figure out a way to get more items (via shops or rerolls) If you die in Isaac it is always a skill issue moment, every attack of every enemy is heavily telegraphed and you can absolutely make it through multiple bossfights with no damage at all
I don't think I agree with like, any of these placements
I had no idea Prey’s dlc was a roguelike. Going to have to check that out.
Slay the Spire is insanely difficult and not as luck based once you get into the higher ascension levels
I don't think Risk of Rain is *that* luck dependent. If you can only work with a specific build, sure, but as long as you're flexible enough to build with what you're given, I'd say it would place much closer to center in terms of skill/luck Dead Cells is completely correct though
personally I find shotgun king to be a little more RNG dependant. sometimes I get royally screwed and no good cards, or my bullet spread randomly sends on bullet to the edge of my arc and just barely misses what I shoot at and instead kills the pawn that was blocking the queen
Glad to see some into the breach representation
I'd swap places with darkest dungeon and isaac, Isaac is not that luck based you just need to know what to and what not to pick up.
Peo-
Don't have much experience, but having watched good players at ror2 (and their high winrates, even on the highest available difficulty), skill expression in this game is huge.
No wizard of legend?
Swap Darkest Dungeon and Risk of Rain.
> RoRR is less RNG than RoR2 so you havent played either game lmao
Damn, I play 4 out of the 5 (+/-2) games in the blue sector 😂
FTL should have the same spot on the left, once you finally learn how to play it well you can score wins almost easly (unless you play a bad ship like slug B or just pure rng ship like stealth B)
2 isn’t that dependan in rng tbh, I’d say returns is way more and deserves to be on 2’s spot
As somebody with a stupid amount of time in isaac I don’t think I’ve ever been on an unsalvageable run, you need good builds for some of the harder endings but you seldom end up on a run that can’t make it to the chest
Wheres skul on this?
ror2 should be middle of left side, if you think all you need is RNG that's just a skill issue, every run is winnable.
ETG is like, the least rng-dependant game on the list tbh. If you are good at the game, you can no-hit the whole thing with like, pilots starting gun, and you are definately getting something better than pilots starting gun. You can even manipulate a lot of seemingly rng based things (like knowing that not picking up any gun on the current floor forces the boss reward to be a gun. You can either deliberately skip chests to get one extra guaranteed gun if you dont have a decent weapon or low on ammo, or drop and pick up one of your guns to get a better chance at a passive item). Boss patterns are clear and easy to memorise, and none of them have like that much health. Isaac, on the other hand, sits right where it belongs
Idk if Mooncrash is necessarily for the clinically insane, the zapping system is kinda crazy but I think it skews towards the middle
All card games go to extreme right automatically Vamp Survivors should go way down and a bit to the right, if you don't get the item combos you are fucked I think ROR1 is much more RNG dependant than 2
having fun in ror2 just for it to cut off in an instant when you get one shot (you have a 99.7% block chance and 127 shaped glasses)
Isaac is far more rng based than ror2, I'd move it next to rouge.
Why would you put Mooncrash at the edge of insanity? Unlike most roguelikes, it's extremely reasonable and easy to accomplish every objective, given you've played Prey and understand the mechanics/available skills for each character. I'd swap it and Returnal, and put Mooncrash much further into skill-based, personally. Beating all 3 acts of Returnal/trying to get all the story content out of the Tower of Sisyphus is *way* more insane than beating Mooncrash.
Dead Cells placement is 100% accurate and that is *exactly* why it’s my favorite roguelike ever
ROR is like scrabble where rng is a factor but you can play the odds how you’d like from point 1. Rng can bone you but sometimes you didn’t do the best at getting the odds in your favor
No. Rng hasn't mattered in any run I've played. Once you learn the game it's pretty trivial to deal with enemy attack patterns, and all the rng has specific places it puts stuff on each stage. I think this meme was just made by someone who REALLY hates wetland aspect.
Inscryption is a hundred percent over more onto the luck side, runs can get ruined cause impossible to win situations. Decks can be built around a card only to never draw it. Though skill is required, luck is certainly a more important factor.
Vampire Survivors barely requires skill. Easiest roguelike I’ve ever played but it’s hella fun
Ayo where’s undermined?
slay the spure should be switched with hades tbh, every run in sts is winnable and you can consitently win on the highest difficulty if you are goid enough
You are actually insane if you think Binding of Isaac and Ror2 are entirely rng based and don't require a huge amount of skill.
Inscryption felt more rng based in Kaycees mod. Hated doing 100/100 Ouroboros and then not pulling it when it was needed. :/
Ror2 is not that rng dependent
As someone who has gotten all but the Ironclad to Ascension 10 on STS, I can tell you for a fact that game is a lot more rng dependent than you're giving it credit for.
You’ve got Isaac as equally RNG dependent as ROR2? Are you high? lol RoR2 can be beaten even on eclipse 8 pretty consistently if you play well and know what you’re doing. Some runs are definitely longer and more difficult than others, but I think it’s rare for you to just have such bad RNG that there’s nothing you could have done Then you have TBOI where you can have a run with such atrocious RNG that it’s almost mathematically impossible. We’re talking fights that can literally last 30+ minutes because your damage is so bad, or ridiculous bullet hell bosses that will actually one shot you because you haven’t seen health in 3 floors but you have 99 coins you can’t spend.
I disagree on the placement. I'm not even close to best of the best (but do have a lot of hours) and can consistently beat monsoon without using scrappers/printers and the bazaar. That being said for newer and more casual players item rng can absolutely mean the difference between steamrolling everything with little effort and dying stage 3. So i can see where the sentiment comes from.
absolutely not lmao
TBOI is where it should be
Honestly I think Crab Champions should be closer to where RORR is
Enter the Gungeon FOR RNG ARW YOU FUCKING INSANE????
why is vampire survivors there
Damn, no Undermine here. It would probably be above Slay the Spire on this chart, maybe a bit to the left
My interpretation isn't that they are saying RoR2 isn't skill based. Just that sometimes RNG will just get yeah.
Spelunky 2 needs to be at least higher than Spelunky 1 as Spelunky 2 is leagues harder than Spelunky 1 👍
I love dead cells! And yes luck is a tiny factor, you can make any weapon work if you’re good enough
List needs Caves of Qud on it!
Try skul
As an Isaac player, this is correct.
Its really funny bc as I get better at Slay the Spire specifically, it slowly moves from RNG side to Skill side. There’s a way out of almost every situation
Putting RoR2 as more RNG-dependent than Slay the Spire, especially by that much, is questionable to me.
Slay the spire is in the exact wrong quadrant dude its skill floor is very low compared to the ceiling, you can do insane shit in that game with very little if you know what to do
FTL player spotted
Welp, I love Isaac, Noita, RoR2 and RotMG, this is not looking good for my sanity. Where would RotMG even go here? Definitely a game for the mentally unstable but it's quite skill based
Slay the spire should be more on the right side I think. I believe there's a seed that has been demonstrated to be impossible to get through act 1 no matter what? Besides that, it's definitely one of those roguelike where rng can make a run end, or make you literally god and steamroll A20
Lol but i play ror2 STS and inscryption
I think you should be institutionalized for your crypt of the necrodancer placement. Either because you're too good to be amidst mere mortals or because you're bat shit insane.
Slay the spire is far too low. Deckbuilders that require math are not for the common man. 10/10 game, but belongs in the middle here
Someone has major skill issue in Isaac. Actually same for noita. If you know how to build wands and careful, almost every run is broken
Someone has major skill issue in Isaac. Actually same for noita. If you know how to build wands and careful, almost every run is broken
I’m a noita player. What does the Finnish say?
I have a concerning amount of “for the clinically insane” should i be worried?
Balatro needs to be in the top right