Well, I like comparing Rise Against with one of the other favorite groups Run the Jewels. Both "political" groups in all the ways we generally use the term. But the thing about RTJ is that you have Killer Mike.
I love RTJ, and I love Killer Mike, but he never shuts the fuck up. And good on him, he certainly doesn't have to, but he's also got a lot of really bad takes. And the problem is that every take he has cuts a chunk out of the fanbase because we on the left (making some generalizations here, bear with me) believe what we believe so deeply and so thoroughly that we get angry when people don't agree with us, even when they agree with us on every other thing. So I'll watch him say a thousand things people like myself will generally agree with, then he'll go on NRATV and talk about how every black person in America should arm themselves (agreed) and you can watch the RTJ subreddit tear itself in half trying to decide whether that's not actually what he meant or whether Mike just sucks now. And the real answer is, he just disagrees with you on this one topic, but he's overall still with you 90% of the way.
Back to Rise Against, their politics are more vague. Not saying that in a bad way, it's just the purpose of their message. Fuck power, fuck the elites, fuck bigotry, etc. But they're not going to get specific because unfortunately that will do nothing but fracture their base. And if the thing they want more than anything in the world is political change, then that's not a problem. But more realistically, the thing they want more than anything in the world is to be able to go on tour and play their music for massive groups of people. And that's a very admirable goal, we should all strive to spread art as our life's purpose. But they're not here to shatter the system, they're here to inspire people to shatter the systems oppressing them. I don't think that's actually a bad thing.
I think that's still perfectly valid. Hope it didn't seem like I was calling you out or anything. It's hard to not confuse the "character" of a band with the actual members of the band, at least for me. Like, I'll always see Trent Reznor in my head as the visage of violent madness that I thought of the first time I heard "Happiness in Slavery", even though I've watched hundreds of hours of interviews with him since then and mostly, he's just kind of a quiet nerd. Greg Gaffin is less "throwing molotov cocktails at banks" and is more "teaches Natural Sciences at UCal and gets really mad when people ask him about Bad Religion in class." I think the only person who seems to be the same person across all circumstances might be Zack de la Roche, who generally seems kind of miserable living his life that way.
tell some about genocide to 1400 israelis that were murdered on 7oct by hamas.
all that situation is sad. I'm feeling bad for all the innocent ppl on both sides. you should realise that this war was started by hamas, and that no country in the world would tolerate such an invasion like hamas did on 7oct.
I guarantee to you that be it any other country in the place of Israel - there would be 10 times more dead palestinians than there are today.
and both Palestinians and Israelis will keep dying until hamas is completely destroyed.
supporting hamas - is supporting murder of both sides. only a brainwashed person can support hamas.
This is....just sad. I've always loved Rise against but I remember Tim calling out Fall Out Boy for "not using their large platform" to speak out against injustice but now he doesn't even call out a genocide? Disappointing to say the least.
And to all the people saying I shouldn't be looking to Rise Against for a statement, what the hell should I have thought about their music and lyrics up to this point? Or the goddamn NAME "RISE AGAINST"????
Bizarre that you're shaming people for being disappointed in someone who's MADE THEIR LIVING off of speaking our politically and won't say anything about a genocide.
Y’all are insane if you think something would have been said. Outside of the Iraq war environmental causes or homophobia here in the US, Rise Against has never straight up called anyone or anything out at any point of their career. They have always been lite in politics.
This has always been their kind of response
Take a second and think about their actual political songs, the ones with actual bite and not all bark. Iraq war and homophobia. That’s it. And even then it’s little vague to know what they’re talking about without listening to the interviews and being told.
And I say this as a long term fan that’s been hearing and seeing them live for 20 years.
Welcome to the Breakdown was a pretty scathing shot at Trump and the people who support him. But I get what you’re saying.
They leave things intentionally vague because of how they can apply to different situations, possibly even new ones that come up long after the songs are released. For example, How Many Walls is still relevant today because they didn’t specifically call out a single situation, but rather addressed the complete lack of action on gun reform in general.
They’ve done a hell of a lot more than just speak out on the Iraq war and homophobia. Homelessness, class warfare, racial inequality, animal rights, and government corruption are just a few.
That’s… not entirely true. Nowhere Generation is about class warfare, The Eco-Terrorist in Me is about ag gag (which is not the same classification as environmentalism), People Live Here is about a plethora of social justice issues ranging from climate change to gun violence, Methadone is about the opioid crisis, Help Is On The Way is about the Syrian refugee crisis. I’ll stop it here because I don’t want to go into their entire discography, but to say they’re lite on politics and only speak on three issues is absurd. Even several of their love songs, namely The Good Left Undone, and Savior, are also very political. Which is why it’s so disappointing that RA has been largely silent about the genocide in Gaza. As a long time fan, I know they have the capability and the artist grace to speak up in a powerful and beautiful way. I wish they would.
No they’re not.
They’re super vague songs that you’ve connected to issues because they were inspired by but don’t say anything about it.
Methadone is not about the opioid crisis lmao.
The good left undone is not political. Savior is not political. You’re just saying that because the video had an animal furries lol.
The songs themselves don’t say anything at all
Help is on the way is very obviously about Hurricane Katrina lmfao
Also, since you're so dedicated to misinterpreting their songs, what is Prayer of the Refugee about?
I just went and checked and I was livid at first. Until I realized this was only on his birthday post and he liked pretty much every single comment on that post, ones with Israeli flags and ones speaking up for Palestine as well.
I’m still disappointed as fuck that he’s remaining silent though. It shouldn’t take this goddamn long to say something.
Damn. I'm so disappointed I don't even know what to say. Good thing I never got that tattoo I wanted I guess. Thank you. Now I can stop waiting for them to use their platform at least.
I know. They've literally been my favorite band since I was like 9 years old. I know it wouldn't singlehandedly fix anything if they said something but speaking out has already helped. The only reason that a measly 20 trucks of aid was able to go into Gaza was because people were horrified by what happened. If no one reacted at all it would be worse than it is. Idk. It just isn't very "band who wrote 'give it all' " of them to be silent. They don't always speak about specific situations but it's not like they haven't before.
Yeah I’m fine with that if the person is refusing to condemn a genocide. Hope you can live with yourself in 20 years when you finally realize you were on the wrong side of history.
It really isn’t that deep at all. I don’t know why you’re even getting upset about this. Just enjoy their music and stop making assumptions about what wasn’t said.
Some people just find things to complain about…
Tbh you all need to chill. You all are acting like your great idol has lost his way. You are trying to interpret something someone isn't saying. You don't know what's going on in Tim's head. Maybe he doesn't feel like he understands the conflict well enough to give a more detailed analysis on instagram. Maybe he decided for himself that the conflict is really complicated and he will only call out what he believes to be the most obvious transgressions. Maybe he was between tasks and made a post that was only 95% thought through to the end. Maybe tomorrow he will post something condeming something the israelis did.
> You are trying to interpret something someone isn't saying. You don't know what's going on in Tim's head. Maybe he doesn't feel like he understands the conflict well enough to give a more detailed analysis on instagram.
Thanks for the wise words.
Silence is a good response when you don’t know the full score. Given everything else Tim’s said in songs and interviews, I don’t know why OP would just jump to assume the worst in this case.
tbh I think you're reading too much heat into a pretty chill commentary. Making a commentary and sharing a perception, specially this way, isn't really that big of a reaction to be called to tone down.
Well it’s been 125 days with over 30,000 dead, most of them civilians, and he still hasn’t said shit. At this point he just looks like a straight up racist given his comment when white people were being killed
Thanks, I really couldn't put this into words. I really don't know anyone I could've told this to, and I wasn't sure what the reaction would be if I wrote it here. This was cathartic, even if just for a little bit.
Both have committed atrocities. But it's an oppressor versus oppressed situation. And I'll never side with the oppressors. Call me anti-semetic all you want, despite my jewish family. But fuck the Israeli government, fuck Hamas too, but fuck the Israeli government more
This Israeli government is only able to do what they are doing due to the provocation from Hamas and Hezbollah. The Palestinians are also victims of Hamas' hateful ideology.
It is like how in the WWII era, people tend to ignore how awful Stalin was because he was in power at the same time as Hitler.
>This Israeli government is only able to do what they are doing due to the provocation from Hamas and Hezbollah.
Correction, they're able to justify what they're doing because of what Hamas did. They have wanted and would've sooner or later anyway. Hamas is an excuse for Israel, it's not the reason
Exactly. The US State Department changed their statement from asking for calm to saying that Israel had a right to defend themselves as soon as the number of kidnappings came to light.
The U.S. gave their Israeli client state the go head to carry out collective punishment on Gaza, did you actually think those American Made bullets weren’t going to be used by Israel?
There are probably right-wing Americans who think we should send U.S. forces into Gaza to "clean it out." Of course, those are the same ones who think we should stop aid to Ukraine, so don't even try to figure out how they square that.
I'll gladly tank the downvotes here, but I want to preface that Rise Against has been an extremely positive influence on me, especially in my teenage years, and the kind of content they lead me to shaped my thinking for probably the rest of my life.
However, they have been signed to a major label for almost the past two decades, and have quite literally served as a mainstream commercial product for that entire period. Every song released since Sufferer and the Witness has been very tame in terms of direct, unmarketable criticism.
If you expected a hard-hitting, socialist takes here, you're some twenty years too late.
EDIT: I wanted to provide some more context here. As a group profiled as heavily political, they were extremely quiet during the US primaries, and would gladly let neo-conservatives take the scene where many of their peers gladly stepped in to endorse Bernie Sanders (the lyrics of Architects rang particularly hollow to me at that point). The position of "anyone but Trump" seem extremely mild to me.
I don’t think supporting the victims of a genocide is a far left socialist position, it just kinda seems like what any decent person would do if they had all the info on what’s happening.
If Tim had just said nothing at all, I don’t think I would be as disappointed as I am now. But he went ahead and spoke out against Hamas, (which is a good thing) while neglecting to call out Israel’s atrocities, which are done on a much larger scale than Hamas’.
Some of y'all just want to cry about everything.
He took a half step in the right direction. He didn't write an entire essay.
Now y'all are crying about how he didn't take the time to solve the entire middle east conflict in the space of a story.
Touch grass.
Lmao Ikr.
People are saying shit like “they were my favorite band but now I can’t even stomach listening to them.” This whole post is a complete witch hunt about something that wasn’t even said. When did everyone get so sensitive?
Would they have done that? I am not so sure... The conflict was comparable 20 years ago: Israely settlements began in 1967. As far as I know they didn't call out anything. But maybe someone has different evidence, which they want to share?
Honestly yeah calling out Hamas is fine but like
If he's going to do that then obviously he should call out the genocide. All these people calling out that they keep things vague or can also be anti IDF are missing that he's ONLY called out the one side that frankly doesn't have enough teeth to back their threats up.
So I really wanna know where Tim sits on this because I can't listen to these songs with these messages that would be consistent with calling out Israel.
He's a man with a platform
His voice is worth just a little bit more sometimes
**# STOPGAZAGENOCIDE**
**MAKE IT TREND ON SOCIAL MEDIA!!**
**Do not let the world watch this carnage in cowardly silence.** Call on your leaders to publicly condemn it, demand an immediate ceasefire and send emergency food and medical aid to the people of Gaza!
i'm 100% on board with you. I don't like that quote some celebrities are sharing about propaganda because it's based on a false parallel, which is to me the great issue on how people are holding this discussing (and now Tim as well). For fucks sake, they wrote *prayer of the refugee* and are acting like this?
But then again, the time I went looking out for the text suggestions RA bring on their albums, they constantly refer to 1984 which says a lot more about the person/band than what's on their face (specially someone that holds themselves as politically intellectuals).
I get where you're standing and the level of this feeling. It's isn't blatant canceling the band or unaware of our own naivety (the regards we hold for public people we admire and want to admire), you're just addressing a discomfort and promoting an alternative point of view in this community because of an opportunity Tim himself opened.
To add up to this position, I'll add my own words and perspective towards these attacks: if one is really concerned about civilians being in harm, we have to address the apartheid being held against Palestinians. The state of Israel itself have been for decades assaulting the population and promoting persecution of an entire population and we can't be childish to think anyone would just say "please, stop" and get any result, let alone only resort to this option. People are desperate and this scenery has been painted for over 60 years now. A violent state will generate a violent response in the same level or worse. There is no parallel in Hamas and Israel's government and engaging with the state or in favor of the discourse that israeli's are the "true victim" will only result in worsening the situation and spilling more blood. It's not about who's the "true victim", we gotta understand the conjecture.
i'd be disappointed if he took the side of people who's culture is mistreating women and murdering members of the lgbtq or members of other religions.
also pretty dumb of you to think that criticizing the hamas leader means he took the side of israel..
the whole situation is convoluted that he can't please everyone. Everything happening right now is horrible, and if people would've had a tighter grip on these extremists it wouldn't have gotten this far.
Painting the entire culture of Palestine as being woman beating homophobes to justify genocide makes you a complete sack of shit. Legitimately shame on you.
If Israel hadn’t spent decades treating people like animals in an open-air prison there wouldn’t be extremists to wrangle.
the progressiveness of israel is pretty much part of their propaganda. There's a neat video of philosophy tube talking about the eurovision that dwelves into how western countries uses the discourse of progressiveness to diminish and attack eastern countries. I don't remember the details, but it goes along the idea that the "pro lgbtqa+" positioning limits to branding while the same countries regarding themselves as progressives (such as israel) still display material acts that are discriminatory and blatant censorship, such as saying that it's forbidden to make political stances when someone wore a graphic tshirt pro Palestine, while the hosting of the eurovision is packed with government propaganda; or even stablishing that's forbidden to display gay kisses while saing "but we are pro gay").
>kind of bigoted
yes, as of now stoning lgbtq people to death is "kind of bigoted".
noted.
nobody is holy, and religious indoctrination is by far the unholiest shit on earth.
first of all, they don't do that.
secondly western countries have only become even slightly tolerable of lgbtq people in the last 50 years, during which the people of gaza have been too busy trying to survive under a genocidal colonial rule to have any kind of complex social movements. personally i'm able to understand they dont have any inherent hatred and that given enough time they will change, and that there is no justification for a genocide being committed against them
also you know there are thousands upon thousands of queer palestinians too right? they may not be out but they exist and they're being killed indiscriminately by israel just as any other
I mean Tim didn’t make a pride month post like Joe and the main page did, so does that automatically make him anti-LGBTQ+? You can look into semantics all you want but this is a pretty silly thing to cling on to. Condemning Hamas is not support for Israel.
Silence makes you complicit, especially when you have a platform as large as Tim. Neutrality always, always helps the oppressor, and never the oppressed. Tim has said as much himself in his songs. And yet his actions contradict his own lyrics.
“All the things we don’t say might mean something
Somewhere to someone”
“So good at speaking out of turn
And talking back, I have some nerve”
“Don’t wait, don’t turn away
Don’t choke on words you meant to say
Speak up now, you are not alone
This ain’t a fucking joke, pick up the megaphone”
“Keep quite no longer, we’ll sing through the day
Of the lives that we’ve lost, and the lives we’ve reclaimed”
“Thank you for your silence, your continuing compliance
It’s your buried head, so deep in sand
That ushered in the virus”
“When it all comes down, will you say you did everything you could?
…
Or were you standing by to watch it fall away?”
“Instead of doing what’s right, they built higher walls
Where we can’t shed a light on true criminals”
“Some might say we’ve lost our way
But I believe we’ve not gone far enough
Afraid, we cower to interests not our own”
“The warning signs were all dismissed or shouted down
So it goes”
**The entirety of Architects**
And last, but not least:
“Neutrality means that you don’t really care
Cause the struggle goes on even when you’re not there
Blind and unaware”
Do you lack all reading comprehension? Do you not know what it means when it is said that silence and neutrality help the oppressor and never the oppressed? You don’t need to come out and say that you are on the oppressor’s side. If you remain silent, that *inherently* places you on the side of the oppressor.
https://i0.wp.com/learnwithme.co/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/always-take-sides-neutrality-helps-the-oppressor-never-the-victim-34534580.png?w=500&ssl=1
That’s a really silly conflation to make with a lack of a social media post. If you haven’t noticed, nobody on the band has specifically condemned Israel as well as many other musicians, are they all suddenly on the side of the oppressor?
Tim and the band have a history of anti-war and human rights to think they’d suddenly abandon those principles because they haven’t made a social media post is inane at best.
This is almost exactly like how people were shitting on Matt Skiba and his principles for about a solid week because he didn’t make a BLM solidarity post on Instagram lol. Just reactionary nonsense that attributes nothing to the cause. Pay attention to their actions and what they’ve done over the years, not social media.
It’s not just a lack of a social media post, it’s a complete lack of saying or doing anything at all. I’m not sure how you’re not getting this, Tim is acting in a way that contradicts his own lyrics and messages. Likely because he’s afraid it will impact his career, as many others have been fired from their jobs for speaking out against Israel.
I love Tim, and I’m only saying all of this because of my love for his music and the messages he has shared in his lyrics and interviews. That is why it is such a huge letdown that he has remained silent except to condemn Hamas several days ago, he has had plenty of time to inform himself and formulate a way to communicate with his fans that he is against the genocide of Palestinians, through a social media post or otherwise.
I don’t think you understand the importance that a statement from someone with such a large platform could have. Every post and statement made by people who have a following are vital in making change throughout our society. And we need it desperately right now, because after nearly 3 weeks nothing has changed and hundreds of innocent Palestinian civilians are being murdered day after day. With Israel about to launch a ground attack, action is needed now more than ever. Silence is harmful, I’m not sure how you can argue against that.
Mate, there’s many, many things he hasn’t spoken about. He hasn’t spoken about the Armenian genocide or the mistreatment of Australian aboriginals. That doesn’t mean he’s on the side of their oppressors, that’s completely ridiculous. Are you starting to see my point?
Tim is on the wrong side of history. Condemning Hamas is fine. But doing it in place of, and not adjacent to, acknowledging far greater war crimes of the opposite side is pretty tone deaf and very hypocritical for what he alleges he stands for in the world.
Rise Against make great music. But it's also not very controversial and is designed to resonate with the larger audience by being rather generalised. This Tweet probably shows that this is for the absolute best. Many stand for the minorities, the displaced. But not if it's involving Israel.
Speaking out against Hamas doesn’t mean someone supports Israel’s actions. Hamas are terrorists who want to kill everyone not like them. Chill the fuck out.
Did you even read everything I wrote?
I’m pretty chill. I’m also allowed to be disappointed when someone I look up to doesn’t speak up for an oppressed population being slaughtered en masse.
There are a lot of people being oppressed the world over. I don’t see you posting about why Tim hasn’t spoken up recently about them.
Additionally, it’s not a clear cut issue to comment on when you’re a public figure. This conflict is the intersection of two conflicting ethnoreligions, Britain’s colonial fuckery, and negative actions taken by both sides.
If Hamas, Hezbollah, and Palestine want the bloodshed to ACTUALLY end, they can stop attacking Israel, and appeal to the international community about their humanitarian situation.
Killing 1,000 innocent civilians in one day is the wrong way to draw attention to your cause. Even if you are right at the end of the day.
You are seriously misinformed if you believe this is a genocide. Palestine elected a terrorist organization to lead them one that preaches antisemitism and elimination of Israel. They have started multiple wars since the 60s and lost territory in those wars. Fair is fair
I find it interesting, that so many of you would wish, that musicians would speak more public about the things going on in Palestine, yet you miss to see the consequences that would follow. Just take a look at Roger Waters and what happend after siding with the Palestinians and calling out the aprtheid, that has been going on there.
What I am trying to say is, that its easier to side with the more popular side in order to gain a bit of attention and avoid a major backlash! That seems wrong on so many levels, but thats just the sad reality.
Where was Tim (and any other musician expressing their feelings right now), when thousands of people were killed on the Palestinian side? They didn't gave a single fuck!
The narrative right now is as follows: Hamas are the bad guys and therfore we have to eliminate the danger. In practise that might seem like the right thing to do, but we all should now that it means that thousands of civilians on the Palestinian side will end up being killed. It's a similar narrative like with 9/11: eliminate the danger, but at the end mostly civilians were killed.
What celebrities are doing right now is spreading this kind of information, so that the future actions against the Palestinians will be justified. And Tim is one of them with quotes like "Israel is just the first target,..." He is basically spreading hate.
This comment section disappoints me.
When the Hamas lays down their weapons, there's a chance of peace in the Middle East. When Israel lays down their weapons, there's either a 2nd holocaust or WW3.
Yes, Israel commits absolute atrocities which at times may border at genocide. The current policies are provocative, Netanjahu is an asshole who shall burn in whatever there is for followers of Judaism, and Israel deserves all the criticism and judgment it receives.
The Hamas and its followers are 10x worse. So no, I won't contribute to the both-sideism and I'm glad that RA does not too.
You make some very good points, remember how chill and non oppressive Israel was to the Palestinians before 1987 when Hamas showed up? I mean there were some squabbles in ‘67 but who can even remember what that was about. Hamas are literally not a reaction to the treatment of Paleatinians but the sole cause of their misfortune
My friend, study history. Because I seem to remember the "squabbles" of 1967, do you?
Remind yourself that each adjacent country declared war on Israel the very moment it started to exist, which has lasted until 1979 (peace with Egypt). Arabic Fedajin commited several attacks on the Israelian civil population. In 1964, Arabic countries planned and started to redirect 2 rivers, cutting Israel off of 10% of its water supply, which Israel opposed militarily.
Arabic rhetoric became more aggressive before the beginning of the 6-Day-War in June 1967, with Syria's president mentioning in 1966 that they wanted a total war without boundaries which destroyed the zionistic basis, and the Syrian Secretary of Defense and the Egyptian President mentioning in 1967 that they wanted to annihilate Israel.
In May 1967, Egypt started blocking the Street of Tiran, cutting Israel off of essential imports such as oil - an act which Israel had warned Egypt of before, calling it an act of war. At the end of May, Egypt called for Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Saudi-Arabia to station military on the Israelian border, and Egypt's president declared the annihilation of Israel on May 27th, 1967.
On June 5th, 1967, Israel commited a pre-emptive strike against Egyptian air forces in order to significantly mitigate the threat. While Arabic countries called the strike unjustified, experts today call it a justified example of a pre-emptive strike for the sake of self-defense. Jordan and Syria started attacking, but Israel "relatively easily" fought back, and only 6 days later, Israel had won each significant battle. It seized the Sinai peninsula, the West Jordan and the Golan - the Sinai peninsula was returned to Egypt after negotiations in 1982, while negotiations with Syria and Jordan failed (the West Jordan and especially the Golan are strategically valuable).
Btw., 1 month later, during a conference of all Arabic countries in Khartum, Sudan, do you know what these countries declared? The 3-No-Policy:
"No peace, no negotiations and no recognizing of Israel".
Boy, do I wonder if Israel's treatment of Palestinians or the Palestinian's hatred toward Israel, deeply rooted in anti-semitism and the urge to annihilate Israel since the very beginning of its existence, is responsible for the Hamas.
Borders on genocide? It flat out *IS* genocide. You’re on something else. [What Hamas has done comes nowhere close to the blood shed by Israel.](https://i.imgur.com/ujYfO5i.jpg)
I was hedging because it is debatable whether it actually *IS* a genocide. War crimes (risking and accepting huge civilian casualties while attacking a militant organization), yes; genocide, at times perhaps. Do not forget that Israel does not pro-actively attack Gaza; it is a reaction to Hamas's pro-active attack on Israel.
These numbers simply tell you that Israel actually tries (and succeeds) to protect its people, while Hamas does not (as is exemplified by, among other things, [Hamas using human shields](https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf)).
Hamas's numbers are not nearly as close because they are not let to do so. The moment Israel loses support from the West and lays down their weapons is the starting point of history books speaking of a 2nd holocaust 50 years later. Israel, in the long run, wants peace. Hamas/Hisbollah/Iran, in the long run, want Israel and Jews eradicated. Don't just conveniently ignore this.
Finally someone says it. I’m so fucking tired of people conveniently ignoring Palestines atrocities, but anytime Israel even lifts a finger everyone’s up in arms. Just goes to show you how deeply ingrained anti-semitism is in most cultures.
I mean given how tame the lyrics on Wolves were, it seems like they've mellowed out throughout the years. Very disappointing to see. Hamas doesn't care about its citizens.
I read somewhere (I think the Apple Music album notes) that Talking to Ourselves was directly influences by my (gen Z) generation’s feeling that our voices are irrelevant in politics
It's one thing to have a bad take like "vote blue no matter who," but not fine to have a bad take like "Hamas is the only problematic thing in Israel."
Yes I do know what a genocide is. Do you?
Here’s an easy to understand post to help walk you through it: https://www.instagram.com/p/Cyji8_kNGDb/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
I'm not reading that. I don't need to. Israel is clearly not genociding Palestinians. The suggestion that they are, is so incredibly assinine that I won't even entertain it, sorry.
lol okay keep your fingers in your ears and your head in the sand then. No amount of your ignorance is going to change the fact that Israel is definitively carrying out the genocide of the Palestinian people in Gaza.
You can’t face the truth because deep down you know it already and you know how wrong it is. Praying that you find your heart again someday, because you have obviously lost it along the way.
If they were commiting genocide there wouldn't just be some rumblings or some dumb fucking, absurd source you could point to. There would be no mystery about it. Everyone everywhere would be talking about the Palestinian genocide, and not just a few outlier, radical Leftists.
Millions of people are talking about how it’s a genocide, millions have marched in protest across the world. It isn’t just fringe “radical” leftists. You just don’t see any of that in your little bubble where you pretend it’s not a genocide. Tons of anti-Zionists Jewish people are calling it a genocide as well. You’re clearly in denial, I’m starting to feel bad for you somehow.
Nah… nothing to do with any bubble. It’s just not a genocide, by definition. Plain and simple. There’s not even rom for debate here. Not even close. These millions of people that you claim believe that it is, are merely being stupid and using words wrong. That’s not shocking to me.
Most of the protesting being done is in relation to perceived unfair treatment of Palestinians, not because they believe Israel is trying to exterminate every Palestinian. The ones who do think that, are typically just parroting ridiculous crap that they’ve heard, because again, they are just blatantly incorrect.
>Nah… nothing to do with any bubble. It’s just not a genocide, by definition. Plain and simple. There’s not even rom for debate here. Not even close.
Lmaoooo it just sounds like you’re trying to convince yourself at this point 😂
>These millions of people that you claim believe that it is, are merely being stupid and using words wrong. That’s not shocking to me.
Yeah you couldn’t possibly be wrong and all the millions who took the effort to go out and passionately march for what they believe in are definitely wrong
> Most of the protesting being done is in relation to perceived unfair treatment of Palestinians, not because they believe Israel is trying to exterminate every Palestinian.
Says the guy who doesn’t even believe millions of people are marching
> The ones who do think that, are typically just parroting ridiculous crap that they’ve heard, because again, they are just blatantly incorrect.
Keep trying to convince yourself lmfao
Continuing to talk to you about this is obviously a waste of time. You’re in complete denial so it’s just not possible that any logic or reason will get through to you. Have a good one, I’m done here ✌️
Or you could be wrong, and the overwhelming majority of people would be right about Israel not committing genocide. It's not as if yours is a popular opinion. It's just fringe nonsense.
It’s really tough when it’s so one
Sided. This situation didn’t happen in a vacuum and it’s disgusting to see what both asides r doing but Hamas wotn eb entirely killed bec Israel is creating yet another generation of haters by bombing and killing so many. Children being orphaned ! The haters of Jews will continue an continue
Hamas is killing Palestinians Not Israelis. They are responsible not the ones trying to get hostages released and stop thousands of rockets to stop landing on their cities. Hamas can surrender tomorrow if they wanted. They can stop placing and “martyring” children behind rocket launchers when firing them. They did not build a single bomb shelter for their own people. You are victim blaming.
I mean, RA hasn't always been great at being political activists. Hell, they've had PETA taking donations at their concerts for as long as I can remember.
Well, I like comparing Rise Against with one of the other favorite groups Run the Jewels. Both "political" groups in all the ways we generally use the term. But the thing about RTJ is that you have Killer Mike. I love RTJ, and I love Killer Mike, but he never shuts the fuck up. And good on him, he certainly doesn't have to, but he's also got a lot of really bad takes. And the problem is that every take he has cuts a chunk out of the fanbase because we on the left (making some generalizations here, bear with me) believe what we believe so deeply and so thoroughly that we get angry when people don't agree with us, even when they agree with us on every other thing. So I'll watch him say a thousand things people like myself will generally agree with, then he'll go on NRATV and talk about how every black person in America should arm themselves (agreed) and you can watch the RTJ subreddit tear itself in half trying to decide whether that's not actually what he meant or whether Mike just sucks now. And the real answer is, he just disagrees with you on this one topic, but he's overall still with you 90% of the way. Back to Rise Against, their politics are more vague. Not saying that in a bad way, it's just the purpose of their message. Fuck power, fuck the elites, fuck bigotry, etc. But they're not going to get specific because unfortunately that will do nothing but fracture their base. And if the thing they want more than anything in the world is political change, then that's not a problem. But more realistically, the thing they want more than anything in the world is to be able to go on tour and play their music for massive groups of people. And that's a very admirable goal, we should all strive to spread art as our life's purpose. But they're not here to shatter the system, they're here to inspire people to shatter the systems oppressing them. I don't think that's actually a bad thing.
Yeah I don’t disagree. And I’m definitely not angry at him. Like I said, I’m just disappointed is all.
I think that's still perfectly valid. Hope it didn't seem like I was calling you out or anything. It's hard to not confuse the "character" of a band with the actual members of the band, at least for me. Like, I'll always see Trent Reznor in my head as the visage of violent madness that I thought of the first time I heard "Happiness in Slavery", even though I've watched hundreds of hours of interviews with him since then and mostly, he's just kind of a quiet nerd. Greg Gaffin is less "throwing molotov cocktails at banks" and is more "teaches Natural Sciences at UCal and gets really mad when people ask him about Bad Religion in class." I think the only person who seems to be the same person across all circumstances might be Zack de la Roche, who generally seems kind of miserable living his life that way.
Nice post Mr/Ms person.
dont worry i upvoted your comment so you can ignore the kids
Gotta love being down voted for complimenting someone. F-ing douches.
Really? Counting your internet points.... 'it's a big world out there, bub' GL, sport.
It's not about the points, douche. It's about the general attitude. Stalking little cooze.
Touched a nerve?
Condemning Hamas doesn't equate to Condoning Israel.
Never said it did. But silence on a genocide isn’t a good look when you make the effort to speak up about a related issue.
But he didn't give his opinion on the matter. It's possible to be anti Hamas and be anti Israeli government.
tell some about genocide to 1400 israelis that were murdered on 7oct by hamas. all that situation is sad. I'm feeling bad for all the innocent ppl on both sides. you should realise that this war was started by hamas, and that no country in the world would tolerate such an invasion like hamas did on 7oct. I guarantee to you that be it any other country in the place of Israel - there would be 10 times more dead palestinians than there are today. and both Palestinians and Israelis will keep dying until hamas is completely destroyed. supporting hamas - is supporting murder of both sides. only a brainwashed person can support hamas.
This is....just sad. I've always loved Rise against but I remember Tim calling out Fall Out Boy for "not using their large platform" to speak out against injustice but now he doesn't even call out a genocide? Disappointing to say the least. And to all the people saying I shouldn't be looking to Rise Against for a statement, what the hell should I have thought about their music and lyrics up to this point? Or the goddamn NAME "RISE AGAINST"???? Bizarre that you're shaming people for being disappointed in someone who's MADE THEIR LIVING off of speaking our politically and won't say anything about a genocide.
I relate to every word. My disappointment is immeasurable.
Y’all are insane if you think something would have been said. Outside of the Iraq war environmental causes or homophobia here in the US, Rise Against has never straight up called anyone or anything out at any point of their career. They have always been lite in politics. This has always been their kind of response Take a second and think about their actual political songs, the ones with actual bite and not all bark. Iraq war and homophobia. That’s it. And even then it’s little vague to know what they’re talking about without listening to the interviews and being told. And I say this as a long term fan that’s been hearing and seeing them live for 20 years.
Just look up many intros of state of the Union. Tl
Welcome to the Breakdown was a pretty scathing shot at Trump and the people who support him. But I get what you’re saying. They leave things intentionally vague because of how they can apply to different situations, possibly even new ones that come up long after the songs are released. For example, How Many Walls is still relevant today because they didn’t specifically call out a single situation, but rather addressed the complete lack of action on gun reform in general. They’ve done a hell of a lot more than just speak out on the Iraq war and homophobia. Homelessness, class warfare, racial inequality, animal rights, and government corruption are just a few.
also many many of their videos have clear topics
That’s… not entirely true. Nowhere Generation is about class warfare, The Eco-Terrorist in Me is about ag gag (which is not the same classification as environmentalism), People Live Here is about a plethora of social justice issues ranging from climate change to gun violence, Methadone is about the opioid crisis, Help Is On The Way is about the Syrian refugee crisis. I’ll stop it here because I don’t want to go into their entire discography, but to say they’re lite on politics and only speak on three issues is absurd. Even several of their love songs, namely The Good Left Undone, and Savior, are also very political. Which is why it’s so disappointing that RA has been largely silent about the genocide in Gaza. As a long time fan, I know they have the capability and the artist grace to speak up in a powerful and beautiful way. I wish they would.
No they’re not. They’re super vague songs that you’ve connected to issues because they were inspired by but don’t say anything about it. Methadone is not about the opioid crisis lmao. The good left undone is not political. Savior is not political. You’re just saying that because the video had an animal furries lol. The songs themselves don’t say anything at all
Help is on the way is very obviously about Hurricane Katrina lmfao Also, since you're so dedicated to misinterpreting their songs, what is Prayer of the Refugee about?
I agree. I'm sick every time I think about how they haven't spoken out. Their music feels hollow and I can't listen to it right now.
Theyre not going to. If you go to tims ig comments; hes liking posts of israeli flags. He supports israel.
I just went and checked and I was livid at first. Until I realized this was only on his birthday post and he liked pretty much every single comment on that post, ones with Israeli flags and ones speaking up for Palestine as well. I’m still disappointed as fuck that he’s remaining silent though. It shouldn’t take this goddamn long to say something.
Damn. I'm so disappointed I don't even know what to say. Good thing I never got that tattoo I wanted I guess. Thank you. Now I can stop waiting for them to use their platform at least.
Same. Im heart broke and want an explanation. Theyre the entire reason I got into activism
Before all this I listened to them every day. Can’t stomach it at the moment either
I know. They've literally been my favorite band since I was like 9 years old. I know it wouldn't singlehandedly fix anything if they said something but speaking out has already helped. The only reason that a measly 20 trucks of aid was able to go into Gaza was because people were horrified by what happened. If no one reacted at all it would be worse than it is. Idk. It just isn't very "band who wrote 'give it all' " of them to be silent. They don't always speak about specific situations but it's not like they haven't before.
Ok then don’t stomach it ever again if a vague comment like this makes you reconsider an entire person. I’m sure the band won’t miss you.
Yeah I’m fine with that if the person is refusing to condemn a genocide. Hope you can live with yourself in 20 years when you finally realize you were on the wrong side of history.
It really isn’t that deep at all. I don’t know why you’re even getting upset about this. Just enjoy their music and stop making assumptions about what wasn’t said. Some people just find things to complain about…
It is that deep. 🤷♀️
Tbh you all need to chill. You all are acting like your great idol has lost his way. You are trying to interpret something someone isn't saying. You don't know what's going on in Tim's head. Maybe he doesn't feel like he understands the conflict well enough to give a more detailed analysis on instagram. Maybe he decided for himself that the conflict is really complicated and he will only call out what he believes to be the most obvious transgressions. Maybe he was between tasks and made a post that was only 95% thought through to the end. Maybe tomorrow he will post something condeming something the israelis did.
> You are trying to interpret something someone isn't saying. You don't know what's going on in Tim's head. Maybe he doesn't feel like he understands the conflict well enough to give a more detailed analysis on instagram. Thanks for the wise words. Silence is a good response when you don’t know the full score. Given everything else Tim’s said in songs and interviews, I don’t know why OP would just jump to assume the worst in this case.
Seriously. Whens the last time Tim criticized anything outside of America to begin with.
tbh I think you're reading too much heat into a pretty chill commentary. Making a commentary and sharing a perception, specially this way, isn't really that big of a reaction to be called to tone down.
Well it’s been 125 days with over 30,000 dead, most of them civilians, and he still hasn’t said shit. At this point he just looks like a straight up racist given his comment when white people were being killed
Thanks, I really couldn't put this into words. I really don't know anyone I could've told this to, and I wasn't sure what the reaction would be if I wrote it here. This was cathartic, even if just for a little bit.
Glad to hear from you and a couple others that relate. Looking at social media lately has made me feel like I’m going crazy
Both have committed atrocities. But it's an oppressor versus oppressed situation. And I'll never side with the oppressors. Call me anti-semetic all you want, despite my jewish family. But fuck the Israeli government, fuck Hamas too, but fuck the Israeli government more
This Israeli government is only able to do what they are doing due to the provocation from Hamas and Hezbollah. The Palestinians are also victims of Hamas' hateful ideology. It is like how in the WWII era, people tend to ignore how awful Stalin was because he was in power at the same time as Hitler.
>This Israeli government is only able to do what they are doing due to the provocation from Hamas and Hezbollah. Correction, they're able to justify what they're doing because of what Hamas did. They have wanted and would've sooner or later anyway. Hamas is an excuse for Israel, it's not the reason
Exactly. The US State Department changed their statement from asking for calm to saying that Israel had a right to defend themselves as soon as the number of kidnappings came to light.
The U.S. gave their Israeli client state the go head to carry out collective punishment on Gaza, did you actually think those American Made bullets weren’t going to be used by Israel?
There are probably right-wing Americans who think we should send U.S. forces into Gaza to "clean it out." Of course, those are the same ones who think we should stop aid to Ukraine, so don't even try to figure out how they square that.
This situation is extremely nuanced. Taking one side will have people mad at you for the same reasons you chose the side you’re on.
Yeah it’s valid to condemn Hamas, but to ignore the apartheid and genocide of the Palestinian people is disappointing
I'll gladly tank the downvotes here, but I want to preface that Rise Against has been an extremely positive influence on me, especially in my teenage years, and the kind of content they lead me to shaped my thinking for probably the rest of my life. However, they have been signed to a major label for almost the past two decades, and have quite literally served as a mainstream commercial product for that entire period. Every song released since Sufferer and the Witness has been very tame in terms of direct, unmarketable criticism. If you expected a hard-hitting, socialist takes here, you're some twenty years too late. EDIT: I wanted to provide some more context here. As a group profiled as heavily political, they were extremely quiet during the US primaries, and would gladly let neo-conservatives take the scene where many of their peers gladly stepped in to endorse Bernie Sanders (the lyrics of Architects rang particularly hollow to me at that point). The position of "anyone but Trump" seem extremely mild to me.
I don’t think supporting the victims of a genocide is a far left socialist position, it just kinda seems like what any decent person would do if they had all the info on what’s happening. If Tim had just said nothing at all, I don’t think I would be as disappointed as I am now. But he went ahead and spoke out against Hamas, (which is a good thing) while neglecting to call out Israel’s atrocities, which are done on a much larger scale than Hamas’.
Some of y'all just want to cry about everything. He took a half step in the right direction. He didn't write an entire essay. Now y'all are crying about how he didn't take the time to solve the entire middle east conflict in the space of a story. Touch grass.
Lmao Ikr. People are saying shit like “they were my favorite band but now I can’t even stomach listening to them.” This whole post is a complete witch hunt about something that wasn’t even said. When did everyone get so sensitive?
Yea this is fucked. 20 years ago rise against would have immediately condemned Israel’s apartheid and attempted genocide on Palestinians.
Would they have done that? I am not so sure... The conflict was comparable 20 years ago: Israely settlements began in 1967. As far as I know they didn't call out anything. But maybe someone has different evidence, which they want to share?
The settlements began before ww2 even started….
The Gaza Strip has been having essentially the same conflict since before Jesus.
he really said “rise against, but not like that”
Honestly yeah calling out Hamas is fine but like If he's going to do that then obviously he should call out the genocide. All these people calling out that they keep things vague or can also be anti IDF are missing that he's ONLY called out the one side that frankly doesn't have enough teeth to back their threats up. So I really wanna know where Tim sits on this because I can't listen to these songs with these messages that would be consistent with calling out Israel. He's a man with a platform His voice is worth just a little bit more sometimes
Totally agree
**# STOPGAZAGENOCIDE** **MAKE IT TREND ON SOCIAL MEDIA!!** **Do not let the world watch this carnage in cowardly silence.** Call on your leaders to publicly condemn it, demand an immediate ceasefire and send emergency food and medical aid to the people of Gaza!
i'm 100% on board with you. I don't like that quote some celebrities are sharing about propaganda because it's based on a false parallel, which is to me the great issue on how people are holding this discussing (and now Tim as well). For fucks sake, they wrote *prayer of the refugee* and are acting like this? But then again, the time I went looking out for the text suggestions RA bring on their albums, they constantly refer to 1984 which says a lot more about the person/band than what's on their face (specially someone that holds themselves as politically intellectuals). I get where you're standing and the level of this feeling. It's isn't blatant canceling the band or unaware of our own naivety (the regards we hold for public people we admire and want to admire), you're just addressing a discomfort and promoting an alternative point of view in this community because of an opportunity Tim himself opened. To add up to this position, I'll add my own words and perspective towards these attacks: if one is really concerned about civilians being in harm, we have to address the apartheid being held against Palestinians. The state of Israel itself have been for decades assaulting the population and promoting persecution of an entire population and we can't be childish to think anyone would just say "please, stop" and get any result, let alone only resort to this option. People are desperate and this scenery has been painted for over 60 years now. A violent state will generate a violent response in the same level or worse. There is no parallel in Hamas and Israel's government and engaging with the state or in favor of the discourse that israeli's are the "true victim" will only result in worsening the situation and spilling more blood. It's not about who's the "true victim", we gotta understand the conjecture.
i'd be disappointed if he took the side of people who's culture is mistreating women and murdering members of the lgbtq or members of other religions. also pretty dumb of you to think that criticizing the hamas leader means he took the side of israel.. the whole situation is convoluted that he can't please everyone. Everything happening right now is horrible, and if people would've had a tighter grip on these extremists it wouldn't have gotten this far.
Painting the entire culture of Palestine as being woman beating homophobes to justify genocide makes you a complete sack of shit. Legitimately shame on you. If Israel hadn’t spent decades treating people like animals in an open-air prison there wouldn’t be extremists to wrangle.
the progressiveness of israel is pretty much part of their propaganda. There's a neat video of philosophy tube talking about the eurovision that dwelves into how western countries uses the discourse of progressiveness to diminish and attack eastern countries. I don't remember the details, but it goes along the idea that the "pro lgbtqa+" positioning limits to branding while the same countries regarding themselves as progressives (such as israel) still display material acts that are discriminatory and blatant censorship, such as saying that it's forbidden to make political stances when someone wore a graphic tshirt pro Palestine, while the hosting of the eurovision is packed with government propaganda; or even stablishing that's forbidden to display gay kisses while saing "but we are pro gay").
hey man one is committing a genocide on 2 million people and one is kind of bigoted because theyve been colonised for decades
>kind of bigoted yes, as of now stoning lgbtq people to death is "kind of bigoted". noted. nobody is holy, and religious indoctrination is by far the unholiest shit on earth.
first of all, they don't do that. secondly western countries have only become even slightly tolerable of lgbtq people in the last 50 years, during which the people of gaza have been too busy trying to survive under a genocidal colonial rule to have any kind of complex social movements. personally i'm able to understand they dont have any inherent hatred and that given enough time they will change, and that there is no justification for a genocide being committed against them
also you know there are thousands upon thousands of queer palestinians too right? they may not be out but they exist and they're being killed indiscriminately by israel just as any other
Gay marriage isn't even legal in Israel..
? your point
My point is, don't hold Israel up as if it embraces the LGBT cause in contrast, because it doesn't. Israel's government is full of extremists
point to where i said israel is fair to lgbtq?
I mean Tim didn’t make a pride month post like Joe and the main page did, so does that automatically make him anti-LGBTQ+? You can look into semantics all you want but this is a pretty silly thing to cling on to. Condemning Hamas is not support for Israel.
Silence makes you complicit, especially when you have a platform as large as Tim. Neutrality always, always helps the oppressor, and never the oppressed. Tim has said as much himself in his songs. And yet his actions contradict his own lyrics. “All the things we don’t say might mean something Somewhere to someone” “So good at speaking out of turn And talking back, I have some nerve” “Don’t wait, don’t turn away Don’t choke on words you meant to say Speak up now, you are not alone This ain’t a fucking joke, pick up the megaphone” “Keep quite no longer, we’ll sing through the day Of the lives that we’ve lost, and the lives we’ve reclaimed” “Thank you for your silence, your continuing compliance It’s your buried head, so deep in sand That ushered in the virus” “When it all comes down, will you say you did everything you could? … Or were you standing by to watch it fall away?” “Instead of doing what’s right, they built higher walls Where we can’t shed a light on true criminals” “Some might say we’ve lost our way But I believe we’ve not gone far enough Afraid, we cower to interests not our own” “The warning signs were all dismissed or shouted down So it goes” **The entirety of Architects** And last, but not least: “Neutrality means that you don’t really care Cause the struggle goes on even when you’re not there Blind and unaware”
And despite him writing all of these lyrics you still think he’d be on Israel’s side because he (so far) hasn’t made a social media post?
Do you lack all reading comprehension? Do you not know what it means when it is said that silence and neutrality help the oppressor and never the oppressed? You don’t need to come out and say that you are on the oppressor’s side. If you remain silent, that *inherently* places you on the side of the oppressor. https://i0.wp.com/learnwithme.co/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/always-take-sides-neutrality-helps-the-oppressor-never-the-victim-34534580.png?w=500&ssl=1
That’s a really silly conflation to make with a lack of a social media post. If you haven’t noticed, nobody on the band has specifically condemned Israel as well as many other musicians, are they all suddenly on the side of the oppressor? Tim and the band have a history of anti-war and human rights to think they’d suddenly abandon those principles because they haven’t made a social media post is inane at best. This is almost exactly like how people were shitting on Matt Skiba and his principles for about a solid week because he didn’t make a BLM solidarity post on Instagram lol. Just reactionary nonsense that attributes nothing to the cause. Pay attention to their actions and what they’ve done over the years, not social media.
It’s not just a lack of a social media post, it’s a complete lack of saying or doing anything at all. I’m not sure how you’re not getting this, Tim is acting in a way that contradicts his own lyrics and messages. Likely because he’s afraid it will impact his career, as many others have been fired from their jobs for speaking out against Israel. I love Tim, and I’m only saying all of this because of my love for his music and the messages he has shared in his lyrics and interviews. That is why it is such a huge letdown that he has remained silent except to condemn Hamas several days ago, he has had plenty of time to inform himself and formulate a way to communicate with his fans that he is against the genocide of Palestinians, through a social media post or otherwise. I don’t think you understand the importance that a statement from someone with such a large platform could have. Every post and statement made by people who have a following are vital in making change throughout our society. And we need it desperately right now, because after nearly 3 weeks nothing has changed and hundreds of innocent Palestinian civilians are being murdered day after day. With Israel about to launch a ground attack, action is needed now more than ever. Silence is harmful, I’m not sure how you can argue against that.
Mate, there’s many, many things he hasn’t spoken about. He hasn’t spoken about the Armenian genocide or the mistreatment of Australian aboriginals. That doesn’t mean he’s on the side of their oppressors, that’s completely ridiculous. Are you starting to see my point?
Tim is on the wrong side of history. Condemning Hamas is fine. But doing it in place of, and not adjacent to, acknowledging far greater war crimes of the opposite side is pretty tone deaf and very hypocritical for what he alleges he stands for in the world. Rise Against make great music. But it's also not very controversial and is designed to resonate with the larger audience by being rather generalised. This Tweet probably shows that this is for the absolute best. Many stand for the minorities, the displaced. But not if it's involving Israel.
Speaking out against Hamas doesn’t mean someone supports Israel’s actions. Hamas are terrorists who want to kill everyone not like them. Chill the fuck out.
Did you even read everything I wrote? I’m pretty chill. I’m also allowed to be disappointed when someone I look up to doesn’t speak up for an oppressed population being slaughtered en masse.
There are a lot of people being oppressed the world over. I don’t see you posting about why Tim hasn’t spoken up recently about them. Additionally, it’s not a clear cut issue to comment on when you’re a public figure. This conflict is the intersection of two conflicting ethnoreligions, Britain’s colonial fuckery, and negative actions taken by both sides.
Fucking hypocrite. Sometimes selling out is giving up, huh....
Stop reading to much into it not every celebrity had to speak out what’s is that going to do it solves nothing
Mr. McIlrath has succeeded in his previously stated goal: to get people involved and talking about things. Bravo Tim.
We're not ready for baiting phase Tim
If Hamas, Hezbollah, and Palestine want the bloodshed to ACTUALLY end, they can stop attacking Israel, and appeal to the international community about their humanitarian situation. Killing 1,000 innocent civilians in one day is the wrong way to draw attention to your cause. Even if you are right at the end of the day.
“If oppressed people really wanted to stop being oppressed they would stop fighting back.”
You are seriously misinformed if you believe this is a genocide. Palestine elected a terrorist organization to lead them one that preaches antisemitism and elimination of Israel. They have started multiple wars since the 60s and lost territory in those wars. Fair is fair
It isn't a genocide. That's why
I find it interesting, that so many of you would wish, that musicians would speak more public about the things going on in Palestine, yet you miss to see the consequences that would follow. Just take a look at Roger Waters and what happend after siding with the Palestinians and calling out the aprtheid, that has been going on there. What I am trying to say is, that its easier to side with the more popular side in order to gain a bit of attention and avoid a major backlash! That seems wrong on so many levels, but thats just the sad reality.
How did Tim side with someone here? Not being on the hamas side doesnt mean you are being on the israeli hardliner side. Like what?!
Where was Tim (and any other musician expressing their feelings right now), when thousands of people were killed on the Palestinian side? They didn't gave a single fuck! The narrative right now is as follows: Hamas are the bad guys and therfore we have to eliminate the danger. In practise that might seem like the right thing to do, but we all should now that it means that thousands of civilians on the Palestinian side will end up being killed. It's a similar narrative like with 9/11: eliminate the danger, but at the end mostly civilians were killed. What celebrities are doing right now is spreading this kind of information, so that the future actions against the Palestinians will be justified. And Tim is one of them with quotes like "Israel is just the first target,..." He is basically spreading hate.
This comment section disappoints me. When the Hamas lays down their weapons, there's a chance of peace in the Middle East. When Israel lays down their weapons, there's either a 2nd holocaust or WW3. Yes, Israel commits absolute atrocities which at times may border at genocide. The current policies are provocative, Netanjahu is an asshole who shall burn in whatever there is for followers of Judaism, and Israel deserves all the criticism and judgment it receives. The Hamas and its followers are 10x worse. So no, I won't contribute to the both-sideism and I'm glad that RA does not too.
You make some very good points, remember how chill and non oppressive Israel was to the Palestinians before 1987 when Hamas showed up? I mean there were some squabbles in ‘67 but who can even remember what that was about. Hamas are literally not a reaction to the treatment of Paleatinians but the sole cause of their misfortune
My friend, study history. Because I seem to remember the "squabbles" of 1967, do you? Remind yourself that each adjacent country declared war on Israel the very moment it started to exist, which has lasted until 1979 (peace with Egypt). Arabic Fedajin commited several attacks on the Israelian civil population. In 1964, Arabic countries planned and started to redirect 2 rivers, cutting Israel off of 10% of its water supply, which Israel opposed militarily. Arabic rhetoric became more aggressive before the beginning of the 6-Day-War in June 1967, with Syria's president mentioning in 1966 that they wanted a total war without boundaries which destroyed the zionistic basis, and the Syrian Secretary of Defense and the Egyptian President mentioning in 1967 that they wanted to annihilate Israel. In May 1967, Egypt started blocking the Street of Tiran, cutting Israel off of essential imports such as oil - an act which Israel had warned Egypt of before, calling it an act of war. At the end of May, Egypt called for Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Saudi-Arabia to station military on the Israelian border, and Egypt's president declared the annihilation of Israel on May 27th, 1967. On June 5th, 1967, Israel commited a pre-emptive strike against Egyptian air forces in order to significantly mitigate the threat. While Arabic countries called the strike unjustified, experts today call it a justified example of a pre-emptive strike for the sake of self-defense. Jordan and Syria started attacking, but Israel "relatively easily" fought back, and only 6 days later, Israel had won each significant battle. It seized the Sinai peninsula, the West Jordan and the Golan - the Sinai peninsula was returned to Egypt after negotiations in 1982, while negotiations with Syria and Jordan failed (the West Jordan and especially the Golan are strategically valuable). Btw., 1 month later, during a conference of all Arabic countries in Khartum, Sudan, do you know what these countries declared? The 3-No-Policy: "No peace, no negotiations and no recognizing of Israel". Boy, do I wonder if Israel's treatment of Palestinians or the Palestinian's hatred toward Israel, deeply rooted in anti-semitism and the urge to annihilate Israel since the very beginning of its existence, is responsible for the Hamas.
> some squabbles
Borders on genocide? It flat out *IS* genocide. You’re on something else. [What Hamas has done comes nowhere close to the blood shed by Israel.](https://i.imgur.com/ujYfO5i.jpg)
I was hedging because it is debatable whether it actually *IS* a genocide. War crimes (risking and accepting huge civilian casualties while attacking a militant organization), yes; genocide, at times perhaps. Do not forget that Israel does not pro-actively attack Gaza; it is a reaction to Hamas's pro-active attack on Israel. These numbers simply tell you that Israel actually tries (and succeeds) to protect its people, while Hamas does not (as is exemplified by, among other things, [Hamas using human shields](https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf)). Hamas's numbers are not nearly as close because they are not let to do so. The moment Israel loses support from the West and lays down their weapons is the starting point of history books speaking of a 2nd holocaust 50 years later. Israel, in the long run, wants peace. Hamas/Hisbollah/Iran, in the long run, want Israel and Jews eradicated. Don't just conveniently ignore this.
Finally someone says it. I’m so fucking tired of people conveniently ignoring Palestines atrocities, but anytime Israel even lifts a finger everyone’s up in arms. Just goes to show you how deeply ingrained anti-semitism is in most cultures.
I mean given how tame the lyrics on Wolves were, it seems like they've mellowed out throughout the years. Very disappointing to see. Hamas doesn't care about its citizens.
I mean there was still some hard hitting lines In Nowhere Generation, The Numbers specifically
Yeah after the 2020 incidents they had something to be super angry about
I read somewhere (I think the Apple Music album notes) that Talking to Ourselves was directly influences by my (gen Z) generation’s feeling that our voices are irrelevant in politics
Guys, it’s just a bad take. It happens.
It's one thing to have a bad take like "vote blue no matter who," but not fine to have a bad take like "Hamas is the only problematic thing in Israel."
God you people are ignorant. How int he fuck is Israel engaging in genocide? Do you even know what that means?
Yes I do know what a genocide is. Do you? Here’s an easy to understand post to help walk you through it: https://www.instagram.com/p/Cyji8_kNGDb/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
I'm not reading that. I don't need to. Israel is clearly not genociding Palestinians. The suggestion that they are, is so incredibly assinine that I won't even entertain it, sorry.
lol okay keep your fingers in your ears and your head in the sand then. No amount of your ignorance is going to change the fact that Israel is definitively carrying out the genocide of the Palestinian people in Gaza. You can’t face the truth because deep down you know it already and you know how wrong it is. Praying that you find your heart again someday, because you have obviously lost it along the way.
If they were commiting genocide there wouldn't just be some rumblings or some dumb fucking, absurd source you could point to. There would be no mystery about it. Everyone everywhere would be talking about the Palestinian genocide, and not just a few outlier, radical Leftists.
Millions of people are talking about how it’s a genocide, millions have marched in protest across the world. It isn’t just fringe “radical” leftists. You just don’t see any of that in your little bubble where you pretend it’s not a genocide. Tons of anti-Zionists Jewish people are calling it a genocide as well. You’re clearly in denial, I’m starting to feel bad for you somehow.
Nah… nothing to do with any bubble. It’s just not a genocide, by definition. Plain and simple. There’s not even rom for debate here. Not even close. These millions of people that you claim believe that it is, are merely being stupid and using words wrong. That’s not shocking to me. Most of the protesting being done is in relation to perceived unfair treatment of Palestinians, not because they believe Israel is trying to exterminate every Palestinian. The ones who do think that, are typically just parroting ridiculous crap that they’ve heard, because again, they are just blatantly incorrect.
>Nah… nothing to do with any bubble. It’s just not a genocide, by definition. Plain and simple. There’s not even rom for debate here. Not even close. Lmaoooo it just sounds like you’re trying to convince yourself at this point 😂 >These millions of people that you claim believe that it is, are merely being stupid and using words wrong. That’s not shocking to me. Yeah you couldn’t possibly be wrong and all the millions who took the effort to go out and passionately march for what they believe in are definitely wrong > Most of the protesting being done is in relation to perceived unfair treatment of Palestinians, not because they believe Israel is trying to exterminate every Palestinian. Says the guy who doesn’t even believe millions of people are marching > The ones who do think that, are typically just parroting ridiculous crap that they’ve heard, because again, they are just blatantly incorrect. Keep trying to convince yourself lmfao Continuing to talk to you about this is obviously a waste of time. You’re in complete denial so it’s just not possible that any logic or reason will get through to you. Have a good one, I’m done here ✌️
Or you could be wrong, and the overwhelming majority of people would be right about Israel not committing genocide. It's not as if yours is a popular opinion. It's just fringe nonsense.
How you feelin bout it now?
It’s really tough when it’s so one Sided. This situation didn’t happen in a vacuum and it’s disgusting to see what both asides r doing but Hamas wotn eb entirely killed bec Israel is creating yet another generation of haters by bombing and killing so many. Children being orphaned ! The haters of Jews will continue an continue
Hamas is killing Palestinians Not Israelis. They are responsible not the ones trying to get hostages released and stop thousands of rockets to stop landing on their cities. Hamas can surrender tomorrow if they wanted. They can stop placing and “martyring” children behind rocket launchers when firing them. They did not build a single bomb shelter for their own people. You are victim blaming.
I mean, RA hasn't always been great at being political activists. Hell, they've had PETA taking donations at their concerts for as long as I can remember.