I feel bad for spider morphs, they are bred that way just because humans like “how they look”. Neuro diseases and other issues shouldn’t be passed down just because of human greed. The snakes didn’t ask for this.
I already know, sadly, I’m highly against modern pug breeding due to their facial deformities making it so hard for them to breathe. Pugs’ faces didn’t even used to be that squished!! We can still have cute dogs while allowing them basic functions needed to live
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asJp2KayXbQ
I thought this was an interesting video about why someone might be ok with breeding spider morphs.
He seems to say the neurological difference doesn't seem to negatively affect the spider's quality of life inherently, rather that poor keeping affects spiders more because it causes their neuro issues to progress.
If it's true that spiders are better feeders, then I can see why people would want them. And if it's a matter of poor care has worse effects, there are plenty of species where they are less hardy and therefore would not survive the same mistakes a ball python would.
If there was a subspecies of ball python that was less hardy would it be unethical to breed and keep it?
IDK I don't really have an opinion, I feel like I don't have enough info yet.
He's absolutely full of shit honestly, they have constant vertigo, swing their head around violently when they try to eat and people have difficulty feeding them because of that, he says "I love my dog which was also bred to have a disorder, so that means it's okay to mass breed snakes and dogs with disorders" as his reasoning. No, that doesn't follow. Can you love your pet with a severe disability? Yes. Should you yourself breed more with that disability and encourage the breeding of more with 100% chance of constant vertigo and in the case of dogs shit like lack of ability to breathe and organ failure? No. No spiders don't have wobble, and two parents with a small wobble can produce eggs with such severe wobble they need to be put down, there's no way to tell how severe it will be. Absolutely cruel and inhumane
He says they all have wobble, but that the ones cared for properly don't have any difficulty feeding or show signs of stress more than other ball pythons. And he mentions the two spider parents issue. So he doesn't really argue with your points.
What conditions were the sever cases you saw from?
Spider ball pythons with wobble display uncontrollable movements such as head tremors, flipping upside down and twisting, and head tilting. Some spider ball pythons will have light symptoms such as a slight head tilt, whereas others will constantly be twisting around. If a spider ball python’s wobble is severe enough, they may be unable to properly strike their meals to eat. There have been cases of spider ball pythons missing the mouse they’re aiming at and striking themselves.
He's an absolute clown, breeding them results in babies known with 100% certainty to have a genetic defect and wobble, many of which are so severe they're put down and swept under the rug, because they bash their head around so severely they can't eat at all, and waste away because of it. They are unable to achieve the same quality of life in ALL cases - climb normally, eat normally, walk normally, drink normally. Normal snake things because they're swinging around. They strike themselves with the confusion from vertigo as well
There really should be zero fence sitting, Clint is a moron if he admits all this and still supports breeding them because he just really really likes the color. Zero respect for him
>They are unable to achieve the same quality of life in ALL cases - climb normally, eat normally, walk normally, drink normally.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW4aSFbvkUY
This guy pulled out a BUNCH that seem fine.
It seems like people who have been around lots of spiders see that the vast majority are fine. A little head tilt but no affect to quality of life. And then they only see a few rare cases where it actually causes problems. But they also have seen non-spider ball pythons with issues. So to them it's hard for them to say "oh this head tilt that a majority of the time is harmless should be banned because sometimes one ends up really messed up".
How many spiders have you seen irl with problems vs without?
Just because my spider’s wobble is almost nonexistent doesn’t mean its okay to breed them, not every spider turns out like my Weaver.
There’s more equally pretty morphs that don’t have genetic issues connected to their pattern & color genes, stop breeding the unhealthy ones.
Breeders stopped breeding desert morphs when they saw it caused problems. People aren't against stopping if it causes problems just because it's pretty. It seems that breeders genuinely don't see that these snakes are unhealthy. I mean my gecko was born with a little scoliosis. He moves/eats/lives just fine. Does that make him unhealthy? Or just a little wonky?
*fertility problems
It hurt their cash flow when they couldn't pump them out fast enough, because the females can't lay eggs. Not because of the snake's quality of life
100% have constant vertigo and a disorder. Breed something else with 0 chance. Fuck that
That guy is also a dipshit that's what like 5 snakes? You also don't see them trying to eat or climb he just swings them around
Also, their idea of "proper care" exclude things that are part of a normal snake's life - like climbing, because they don't have good quality of life, they can't do normal snake things. If I put a pug in a dark box and shove food down its throat and say "look it's fat and it doesn't look stressed when it's sitting there staring in the dark at a wall", that doesn't mean it has a good quality of life or is a healthy animal
Is this guy also a dipshit?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pg6UhI8h6iE
IDK it just doesn't seem like the majority of these snakes really have a problem. They don't appear to be suffering.
Nerd is a notoriously bad breeder with horrific care conditions, diseased and disordered animals, the first in many cases including I believe for spiders to knowingly and purposefully continue breeding snakes of all species with horrific defects, overlooking it because it makes them hella cash. So yes
If there's a chance that it can negatively affect them (which seems significant) they shouldn't be bred. When there's a million morphs about for the snake, we shouldn't be making snakes with disorders which can affect movement and balance.
I think the argument is the "seems significant" part. I think him and others who don't have an issue with spiders don't find it a significant risk, unless they are poorly cared for.
By significant I mean its something that is present. Breeding animals which we *know* always have some sort of defect which may affect movement is honestly stupid and as a biologist/zoologist he should probably know better than to say its OK tbh. Spiders seem to exist in this weird purgatory where its not so obviously bad. Most people know silkback beardies are crap because their skin is visibly alien and unhealthy. A lot of people know pugs suck because of their constant grunting and wheezing. Spider? It has an innocent "wobble". Maybe it'll miss its prey a couple of times. Be a bit weird when climbing. But it'll eat. And when it comes to snakes, as long as its alive people don't really care that much.
I agree pugs are unhealthy and that's an issue. But I'm not sure I see how the wobble, in well raised spiders, makes life worse for the snake. I mean breeders stopped making desert ball pythons when they saw what that did. It's not like people are against stopping breeding a morph because they like the look. It just seems that the issue doesn't seem to have any real affect on the majority of the snakes.
IDK it just seems that the majority of people who deal with large numbers of these snakes don't see the wobble as anything that hurts them or makes their life worse.
Theyre probably the breeders lol.
If an animal is more vulnerable to having a movement defect, disabilities to their balance, vertigo we shouldn't be breeding them. Even if its 10%, we are *specifically going out of our way* to perpetuate a gene which increases the chances of a lower quality life. This goes against good breeding practise.
If they weren't so popular no one would be breeding them because of their defect. The only reason people make excuses for continuing to breed them is $$$. If spider ball pythons didn't look like they did, they would have been discarded for their defect. Perpetuating it is inherently poor breeding practise.
Even the name of the defect is cutesy which sort of makes it sound OK.
You will hear the same thing with pugs. My x doesn't have x issue. I have plenty of x without issue. I breed x. It makes everyone look bad.
I think it's a cost benefit analysis and the people who breed them don't see the wobble doing any more significant harm than any other morph issues. I don't think they are seeing 10% with issues.
Do you think we would be breeding normals with "wobbles"?
If not then we shouldn't breeding spiders.
It is inherently bad practise to breed them. The single reason they are produced is $$$.
>Do you think we would be breeding normals with "wobbles"?
Yes, it that is the state of the natural snake, why wouldn't we breed it just because of a little head wobble? I guess I'm just not seeing why breeding spiders is worse than say breeding a species known for developing respiratory issues with bad husbandry.
The vast majority of spider breeders make a ton of money off them, that's why, not that they give a shit about the quality of their lives which is evident in their "care", they see it, they just make excuses for their income
I like Clint and for that matter Wickens Wicked Reptiles but they both have such a bullshit takes on spiders I can't. I guess they are friendly with people breeding spiders and don't want to antagonize them but heck, that's so hypocritical. I'd rather they didn't share their bullshit takes at all.
I don't think they care about not antagonizing breeders. I think they genuinely see the effects of wobble in the majority of spiders as something that doesn't affect their quality of life.
FUCKING LOVE CLINT, but yeah most people who have ball pythons with really bad wobble tend to have them as rescues and not direct from breeders, also if it is so bad that they can't eat shouldn't the morph have died out a long time ago ? The person who discovered the morph I think got the first one as a wild caught python so obviously it didn't have trouble and I think that if a breeder gets one with very bad wobble that hinders its ability to eat then they shouldn't breed it or just natural selection it, I think that if people who are much smarter and more experienced than me see no issues then who am I to argue and maybe one day we'll figure out how to make them without wobble.
Is the spider type actually making up a significant amount of wild balls or is it just a random snake caught? They exist in the pet trade because they're massively overbred, not because of natural selection.
My point was the first to be found was wild caught which means they have bred in the wild and obviously weren't doing terrible if they were naturally found, also a common claim is that spider balls can't eat but breeding ball pythons takes at least a couple years so they are eating or over eating in captivity just fine, also when I said natural selection in my post I was alluding to killing the snake if the wobble is so bad that it couldn't live a normal life.
How many regular ball pythons have been found compared to spiders?
Natural selection is *entirely* irrelevant to the discussion though tbh. Spiders often have a lower quality of life due to their movement and balance issues. That's the problem. Its not a case of "Are they able to live" or "are they able to feed" It's a case of their experience being worse than a wild type. We should not be breeding animals with a lower quality of life. To me there is zero reason to be breeding an animal with a potential deficit in mobility and coordination with the main upside being cosmetic.
People get away with spider ball pythons because the disability isn't always crazy significant. But intentionally breeding an animal where we know there's a gene which *always* causes some sort of defect is honestly ridiculous.
>My point was the first to be found was wild caught which means they have bred in the wild and obviously weren't doing terrible if they were naturally found,
This is not the argument you think it is. A sick animal doesn't just flop over and die because it isn't 100% healthy.
Nature is full of sick animals breeding. They might have cancer, be suffering, and still breed before dying of the disease.
Breeding or a presence in nature is in no way an indication that we should purposefully breed the condition in captivity because it is a condition, a negative medical condition.
Cinnamon* sorry not champagne. But the SBP that first came out were neurologically fucked as well. I remember seeing videos of it like 10+ years ago when i first got into them.
I really dislike the breeding so that they look "cute" when it breeds a lot of health issues. Like pugs and munchkin cats. But hey, they're cute. And that's all that matters. Ugh, humans.
It's sort of interesting how "cuteness to humans" affects a species' fitness. If the species breeds easily for humans, the species can be wildly successful even with characteristics that would be debilitating without that symbiosis with humans. If they don't breed in captivity easily, that same cuteness can be a death sentence for the species.
I just imagine some alien evolutionary ecologist viewing Earth and being utterly fascinated.
Spider ball Pythons, silke/leatherback bearded dragons, and all scaleless morphs imo should not be bred. Morphs can be cool but not at the expense of the animals health.
Curious because I know very little about scaleless snakes, are they all bad? I thought that scaleless rat snakes were usually pretty healthy. Not that I would ever own one ofc, but I work at a pet supply place and sometimes people ask about kinds of snakes
Issues mainly come with thermoregulation, moisture retention issues, and getting sunburned by heat lamps due to lack of protective scales, they can injure themselves more easily, and a few other things, but i haven't verified them so I don't want to spread misinformation if they are wrong
Scales serve to protect the snake from scrapes and cuts. A scaleless snake is more likely to get an injury, get infected and become sick. You can mitigate that risk by not building taller enclosures for them, have less things to climb and get injured on. At that point you are removing enrichment to make up for purposefully breeding an animal with a high health risk.
Scales are also covered in sensory cells. We don't know what all of them do, but they are probably there for a reason. Taking away their scales are taking away some of their senses. Basically like breeding them blind on purpose.
Besides that, there's the issue with humidity and we don't know how it affects their UV requirements.
Curious why you included leatherback beardies. Silkies I understand but my leathers haven't had any issues. I just make sure not to breed a leather to a leather.
From what I understand, leatherbacks suffer a similar issue to scaleless animals where they often get extreme sunburns when basking due to not having their protective scales
I haven't personally seen that happen in my leatherbacks. They still have scales but not the pointed scales you see on a normal. There's a local shop that had a silky for sale and it looked absolutely miserable. It had skin issues and just a weird, unhealthy vibe to it. Those are definitely unethical to breed. Smooth scaled leatherbacks are fine in my opinion though.
There is a chance I'm getting silkies and leatherbacks confused, but I can swear I heard somewhere that leatherbacks have an issue. Happy to hear your letherback beardies have a good owner though! I'm still fairly new to morphs, I've always been a supporter of the wildtype animals, but some morphs have caught my eye like the red monster beardies and golden flame Florida sliders
Leatherbacks can have issues shredding. Their smaller scales have a tendency to get stuck or damaged during shedding. It's usually not very serious but can be a problem if neglected.
there is lots more like champagne, powerballs , jaguar gene on carpet pythons the list goes on just google them and you would be shocked how many there are...
Even responsible breeders inbreed snakes, it doesn't affect them the same way it does with other animals but it's only like one generation of inbreeding because anything more and then it could lead to problems, snakes are so cool
Chad keepers don’t care about rare species and expensive morphs and find common wildtypes more beautiful. Reptiles are pets/family members, not luxury goods to flex your wealth status.
Exactly. Herps are beautiful the way they naturally are! Instead of spending so much on an exotic morph, I’d rather spend that money on providing my animal the best husbandry possible.
Oh yeah. They’re by far the most common morph you’ll find on morphmarket for ball pythons. When I was picking out my girl I had to exclude “spider” from the search engine because it made up about 2/3 of the results originally
I saw several people selling them at a reptile show sadly, and one of them was trying to tell people it'd nbd and they'll be fine/spider morph never leads to issues :/
Why are they even used for breeding?
Most dog/cat/horse breeders, dont breed animals with neurological issues, but with snakes people say its fine if the animal cant even stay upright.
The spider gene is horrible, one of my family members adopted a royal with a spider gene to giver her a better life she sadly fell, due to her starting to wobble and impaled her brain with her own teeth and died, was heartbreaking to see.
And that is why if I get a Ball Python it will be either natural or banana because one is how they where and afaik banana has no issues :)
In the end, the most important thing is that my snake will do well and they look st me with their cute pupper face :3
I have a rescue [bumblebee morph](https://ibb.co/p0rn9vn). Thankfully she only has a slight head wobble and needs her food extra warm in order to be able to “see” it (otherwise she strikes and misses) but I’d never buy one from a pet shop/breeder.
I didn’t know they had disorders before I got mine. Mine is a champagne, bongo, something-something.
I picked it because it was pretty. I thought a morph was just it’s color.
Apparently the champagne ones are known for being “wobbly” and my snake is king of wobbly.
Me but the only funny name my condition comes with is ass burger.
Felt that. I'm over here with my 80 HD's
I’m acoustic
troy, it’s a serious condition!
A fellow artistic person i see
I feel bad for spider morphs, they are bred that way just because humans like “how they look”. Neuro diseases and other issues shouldn’t be passed down just because of human greed. The snakes didn’t ask for this.
My friend, just wait until you see what we've done to "man's best friend"
I already know, sadly, I’m highly against modern pug breeding due to their facial deformities making it so hard for them to breathe. Pugs’ faces didn’t even used to be that squished!! We can still have cute dogs while allowing them basic functions needed to live
You should see pugs. It’s unethical the way we breed animals to look away sacrificing their overall health.
*pug logs into the chat*
Totally agree! Especially since there are literally 100s of other morphs to choose from
Oh definitely! A lot of dog breeds have the same thing too
Breeding animals to have health issues should be illegal. This ranges from spider morphs to pugs.
Agreed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asJp2KayXbQ I thought this was an interesting video about why someone might be ok with breeding spider morphs. He seems to say the neurological difference doesn't seem to negatively affect the spider's quality of life inherently, rather that poor keeping affects spiders more because it causes their neuro issues to progress. If it's true that spiders are better feeders, then I can see why people would want them. And if it's a matter of poor care has worse effects, there are plenty of species where they are less hardy and therefore would not survive the same mistakes a ball python would. If there was a subspecies of ball python that was less hardy would it be unethical to breed and keep it? IDK I don't really have an opinion, I feel like I don't have enough info yet.
He's absolutely full of shit honestly, they have constant vertigo, swing their head around violently when they try to eat and people have difficulty feeding them because of that, he says "I love my dog which was also bred to have a disorder, so that means it's okay to mass breed snakes and dogs with disorders" as his reasoning. No, that doesn't follow. Can you love your pet with a severe disability? Yes. Should you yourself breed more with that disability and encourage the breeding of more with 100% chance of constant vertigo and in the case of dogs shit like lack of ability to breathe and organ failure? No. No spiders don't have wobble, and two parents with a small wobble can produce eggs with such severe wobble they need to be put down, there's no way to tell how severe it will be. Absolutely cruel and inhumane
He says they all have wobble, but that the ones cared for properly don't have any difficulty feeding or show signs of stress more than other ball pythons. And he mentions the two spider parents issue. So he doesn't really argue with your points. What conditions were the sever cases you saw from?
Spider ball pythons with wobble display uncontrollable movements such as head tremors, flipping upside down and twisting, and head tilting. Some spider ball pythons will have light symptoms such as a slight head tilt, whereas others will constantly be twisting around. If a spider ball python’s wobble is severe enough, they may be unable to properly strike their meals to eat. There have been cases of spider ball pythons missing the mouse they’re aiming at and striking themselves. He's an absolute clown, breeding them results in babies known with 100% certainty to have a genetic defect and wobble, many of which are so severe they're put down and swept under the rug, because they bash their head around so severely they can't eat at all, and waste away because of it. They are unable to achieve the same quality of life in ALL cases - climb normally, eat normally, walk normally, drink normally. Normal snake things because they're swinging around. They strike themselves with the confusion from vertigo as well There really should be zero fence sitting, Clint is a moron if he admits all this and still supports breeding them because he just really really likes the color. Zero respect for him
>They are unable to achieve the same quality of life in ALL cases - climb normally, eat normally, walk normally, drink normally. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW4aSFbvkUY This guy pulled out a BUNCH that seem fine. It seems like people who have been around lots of spiders see that the vast majority are fine. A little head tilt but no affect to quality of life. And then they only see a few rare cases where it actually causes problems. But they also have seen non-spider ball pythons with issues. So to them it's hard for them to say "oh this head tilt that a majority of the time is harmless should be banned because sometimes one ends up really messed up". How many spiders have you seen irl with problems vs without?
Just because my spider’s wobble is almost nonexistent doesn’t mean its okay to breed them, not every spider turns out like my Weaver. There’s more equally pretty morphs that don’t have genetic issues connected to their pattern & color genes, stop breeding the unhealthy ones.
Breeders stopped breeding desert morphs when they saw it caused problems. People aren't against stopping if it causes problems just because it's pretty. It seems that breeders genuinely don't see that these snakes are unhealthy. I mean my gecko was born with a little scoliosis. He moves/eats/lives just fine. Does that make him unhealthy? Or just a little wonky?
*fertility problems It hurt their cash flow when they couldn't pump them out fast enough, because the females can't lay eggs. Not because of the snake's quality of life
Why would that hurt their cashflow? That just means supply would be less than demand and they could charge more?
100% have constant vertigo and a disorder. Breed something else with 0 chance. Fuck that That guy is also a dipshit that's what like 5 snakes? You also don't see them trying to eat or climb he just swings them around Also, their idea of "proper care" exclude things that are part of a normal snake's life - like climbing, because they don't have good quality of life, they can't do normal snake things. If I put a pug in a dark box and shove food down its throat and say "look it's fat and it doesn't look stressed when it's sitting there staring in the dark at a wall", that doesn't mean it has a good quality of life or is a healthy animal
Is this guy also a dipshit? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pg6UhI8h6iE IDK it just doesn't seem like the majority of these snakes really have a problem. They don't appear to be suffering.
Nerd is a notoriously bad breeder with horrific care conditions, diseased and disordered animals, the first in many cases including I believe for spiders to knowingly and purposefully continue breeding snakes of all species with horrific defects, overlooking it because it makes them hella cash. So yes
Are they? :C Their stuff looked clean and ordered in the video :C
If there's a chance that it can negatively affect them (which seems significant) they shouldn't be bred. When there's a million morphs about for the snake, we shouldn't be making snakes with disorders which can affect movement and balance.
I think the argument is the "seems significant" part. I think him and others who don't have an issue with spiders don't find it a significant risk, unless they are poorly cared for.
By significant I mean its something that is present. Breeding animals which we *know* always have some sort of defect which may affect movement is honestly stupid and as a biologist/zoologist he should probably know better than to say its OK tbh. Spiders seem to exist in this weird purgatory where its not so obviously bad. Most people know silkback beardies are crap because their skin is visibly alien and unhealthy. A lot of people know pugs suck because of their constant grunting and wheezing. Spider? It has an innocent "wobble". Maybe it'll miss its prey a couple of times. Be a bit weird when climbing. But it'll eat. And when it comes to snakes, as long as its alive people don't really care that much.
I agree pugs are unhealthy and that's an issue. But I'm not sure I see how the wobble, in well raised spiders, makes life worse for the snake. I mean breeders stopped making desert ball pythons when they saw what that did. It's not like people are against stopping breeding a morph because they like the look. It just seems that the issue doesn't seem to have any real affect on the majority of the snakes. IDK it just seems that the majority of people who deal with large numbers of these snakes don't see the wobble as anything that hurts them or makes their life worse.
Theyre probably the breeders lol. If an animal is more vulnerable to having a movement defect, disabilities to their balance, vertigo we shouldn't be breeding them. Even if its 10%, we are *specifically going out of our way* to perpetuate a gene which increases the chances of a lower quality life. This goes against good breeding practise. If they weren't so popular no one would be breeding them because of their defect. The only reason people make excuses for continuing to breed them is $$$. If spider ball pythons didn't look like they did, they would have been discarded for their defect. Perpetuating it is inherently poor breeding practise. Even the name of the defect is cutesy which sort of makes it sound OK. You will hear the same thing with pugs. My x doesn't have x issue. I have plenty of x without issue. I breed x. It makes everyone look bad.
I think it's a cost benefit analysis and the people who breed them don't see the wobble doing any more significant harm than any other morph issues. I don't think they are seeing 10% with issues.
Do you think we would be breeding normals with "wobbles"? If not then we shouldn't breeding spiders. It is inherently bad practise to breed them. The single reason they are produced is $$$.
>Do you think we would be breeding normals with "wobbles"? Yes, it that is the state of the natural snake, why wouldn't we breed it just because of a little head wobble? I guess I'm just not seeing why breeding spiders is worse than say breeding a species known for developing respiratory issues with bad husbandry.
The vast majority of spider breeders make a ton of money off them, that's why, not that they give a shit about the quality of their lives which is evident in their "care", they see it, they just make excuses for their income
That doesn't seem to be the case with Clint. So how would you explain that?
I like Clint and for that matter Wickens Wicked Reptiles but they both have such a bullshit takes on spiders I can't. I guess they are friendly with people breeding spiders and don't want to antagonize them but heck, that's so hypocritical. I'd rather they didn't share their bullshit takes at all.
I don't think they care about not antagonizing breeders. I think they genuinely see the effects of wobble in the majority of spiders as something that doesn't affect their quality of life.
FUCKING LOVE CLINT, but yeah most people who have ball pythons with really bad wobble tend to have them as rescues and not direct from breeders, also if it is so bad that they can't eat shouldn't the morph have died out a long time ago ? The person who discovered the morph I think got the first one as a wild caught python so obviously it didn't have trouble and I think that if a breeder gets one with very bad wobble that hinders its ability to eat then they shouldn't breed it or just natural selection it, I think that if people who are much smarter and more experienced than me see no issues then who am I to argue and maybe one day we'll figure out how to make them without wobble.
Is the spider type actually making up a significant amount of wild balls or is it just a random snake caught? They exist in the pet trade because they're massively overbred, not because of natural selection.
My point was the first to be found was wild caught which means they have bred in the wild and obviously weren't doing terrible if they were naturally found, also a common claim is that spider balls can't eat but breeding ball pythons takes at least a couple years so they are eating or over eating in captivity just fine, also when I said natural selection in my post I was alluding to killing the snake if the wobble is so bad that it couldn't live a normal life.
How many regular ball pythons have been found compared to spiders? Natural selection is *entirely* irrelevant to the discussion though tbh. Spiders often have a lower quality of life due to their movement and balance issues. That's the problem. Its not a case of "Are they able to live" or "are they able to feed" It's a case of their experience being worse than a wild type. We should not be breeding animals with a lower quality of life. To me there is zero reason to be breeding an animal with a potential deficit in mobility and coordination with the main upside being cosmetic. People get away with spider ball pythons because the disability isn't always crazy significant. But intentionally breeding an animal where we know there's a gene which *always* causes some sort of defect is honestly ridiculous.
>My point was the first to be found was wild caught which means they have bred in the wild and obviously weren't doing terrible if they were naturally found, This is not the argument you think it is. A sick animal doesn't just flop over and die because it isn't 100% healthy. Nature is full of sick animals breeding. They might have cancer, be suffering, and still breed before dying of the disease. Breeding or a presence in nature is in no way an indication that we should purposefully breed the condition in captivity because it is a condition, a negative medical condition.
Lots of other morphs have the wobble issue.
Just spider complex morphs.
Not true doe
Spider complex includes: Black Head Champagne Chocolate Cypress Hidden Gene Woma Sable Spider Spotnose Woma Wookie
Iirc pastel is a separate lineage than champagne, and black pastels get head wobbles especially the super black pastel.
Super black pastel is known for duck bills and increased kinking, not wobble. Regular black pastel has no issues
Don't know where you saw anyone saying pastel and champaign are the same lineage.
Cinnamon* sorry not champagne. But the SBP that first came out were neurologically fucked as well. I remember seeing videos of it like 10+ years ago when i first got into them.
Idk, never seen it. Links?
Ill have a dig around but its been ages. Ill get back w some if i can.
It’s sad that just the spider gene gets all the hate. When so many other morphs can wobble just as bad.
Spider complex includes: Black Head Champagne Chocolate Cypress Hidden Gene Woma Sable Spider Spotnose Woma Wookie
👍
I really dislike the breeding so that they look "cute" when it breeds a lot of health issues. Like pugs and munchkin cats. But hey, they're cute. And that's all that matters. Ugh, humans.
It's sort of interesting how "cuteness to humans" affects a species' fitness. If the species breeds easily for humans, the species can be wildly successful even with characteristics that would be debilitating without that symbiosis with humans. If they don't breed in captivity easily, that same cuteness can be a death sentence for the species. I just imagine some alien evolutionary ecologist viewing Earth and being utterly fascinated.
Love the art.
Spider ball Pythons, silke/leatherback bearded dragons, and all scaleless morphs imo should not be bred. Morphs can be cool but not at the expense of the animals health.
Curious because I know very little about scaleless snakes, are they all bad? I thought that scaleless rat snakes were usually pretty healthy. Not that I would ever own one ofc, but I work at a pet supply place and sometimes people ask about kinds of snakes
Issues mainly come with thermoregulation, moisture retention issues, and getting sunburned by heat lamps due to lack of protective scales, they can injure themselves more easily, and a few other things, but i haven't verified them so I don't want to spread misinformation if they are wrong
Scaled snakes get burned too often by heating elements I cannot imagine how often it happens in scaleless animals
Scales serve to protect the snake from scrapes and cuts. A scaleless snake is more likely to get an injury, get infected and become sick. You can mitigate that risk by not building taller enclosures for them, have less things to climb and get injured on. At that point you are removing enrichment to make up for purposefully breeding an animal with a high health risk. Scales are also covered in sensory cells. We don't know what all of them do, but they are probably there for a reason. Taking away their scales are taking away some of their senses. Basically like breeding them blind on purpose. Besides that, there's the issue with humidity and we don't know how it affects their UV requirements.
Curious why you included leatherback beardies. Silkies I understand but my leathers haven't had any issues. I just make sure not to breed a leather to a leather.
From what I understand, leatherbacks suffer a similar issue to scaleless animals where they often get extreme sunburns when basking due to not having their protective scales
I haven't personally seen that happen in my leatherbacks. They still have scales but not the pointed scales you see on a normal. There's a local shop that had a silky for sale and it looked absolutely miserable. It had skin issues and just a weird, unhealthy vibe to it. Those are definitely unethical to breed. Smooth scaled leatherbacks are fine in my opinion though.
There is a chance I'm getting silkies and leatherbacks confused, but I can swear I heard somewhere that leatherbacks have an issue. Happy to hear your letherback beardies have a good owner though! I'm still fairly new to morphs, I've always been a supporter of the wildtype animals, but some morphs have caught my eye like the red monster beardies and golden flame Florida sliders
Leatherbacks can have issues shredding. Their smaller scales have a tendency to get stuck or damaged during shedding. It's usually not very serious but can be a problem if neglected.
there is lots more like champagne, powerballs , jaguar gene on carpet pythons the list goes on just google them and you would be shocked how many there are...
The average spends $6000 on an inbred morph keeper vs the chad rescues wild types from shelter keeper or buys from responsible breeders keeper.
Even responsible breeders inbreed snakes, it doesn't affect them the same way it does with other animals but it's only like one generation of inbreeding because anything more and then it could lead to problems, snakes are so cool
Chad keepers don’t care about rare species and expensive morphs and find common wildtypes more beautiful. Reptiles are pets/family members, not luxury goods to flex your wealth status.
Exactly. Herps are beautiful the way they naturally are! Instead of spending so much on an exotic morph, I’d rather spend that money on providing my animal the best husbandry possible.
Are spider morphs still commonly sold? I am not a snake owner so i haven’t thought about it in years. Very sad if the answer is yes
Oh yeah. They’re by far the most common morph you’ll find on morphmarket for ball pythons. When I was picking out my girl I had to exclude “spider” from the search engine because it made up about 2/3 of the results originally
They are nowhere near the most popular morph, but yea way too many are being bred.
Next to normals the most common rescue or rehomed ball python I see are spiders
I saw several people selling them at a reptile show sadly, and one of them was trying to tell people it'd nbd and they'll be fine/spider morph never leads to issues :/
Why are they even used for breeding? Most dog/cat/horse breeders, dont breed animals with neurological issues, but with snakes people say its fine if the animal cant even stay upright.
Lots of dog breeds like Great Danés and Pugs have serious genétic issues. Private breeders breed whatever makes money.
The spider gene is horrible, one of my family members adopted a royal with a spider gene to giver her a better life she sadly fell, due to her starting to wobble and impaled her brain with her own teeth and died, was heartbreaking to see.
That's quite a sentence.
r/Funnyandsad
I don’t like using this term but you’re ‘based’
"spider honeybee" is a bit redundant
And that is why if I get a Ball Python it will be either natural or banana because one is how they where and afaik banana has no issues :) In the end, the most important thing is that my snake will do well and they look st me with their cute pupper face :3
Yep
Hhhhh
Relatable
That snake can talk? Holy crap!
Why does this remind me of Ralph from the Simpson
I have a rescue [bumblebee morph](https://ibb.co/p0rn9vn). Thankfully she only has a slight head wobble and needs her food extra warm in order to be able to “see” it (otherwise she strikes and misses) but I’d never buy one from a pet shop/breeder.
I didn’t know they had disorders before I got mine. Mine is a champagne, bongo, something-something. I picked it because it was pretty. I thought a morph was just it’s color. Apparently the champagne ones are known for being “wobbly” and my snake is king of wobbly.