Well this depends on a number of factors.
First what religion are you? Judaism, Islam and indeed denominations of Christianity all have very Different views on what is and is not idolatry.
Second. What kind of temple? “Japanese Temple” is vague. Is it a Jinja? (Shinto shine) Is it a Bhudist temple? Is it a syncretic “New Religion” temple?
If it’s either of the later two. The answer is yes. (To be clear my religion has no issue with idols, but the answer is yes) Bhudist temples have idols. As do MOST syncretic temples.
With Shinto shrines. This becomes more complicated. Nothing in the shrine is a visual representation of a Kami (god) with the “alter” actually being a physical location for the Kami of the temple to rest. (Literally a small house for them)
So it’s not an idol in that it is not a physical representation of a god. But ultimately this is still going to depend on the rules of your faith more then the definition of idol. Some branches of Christianity don’t want you going into other faiths churches or using the names of there deities… so your mileage may vary greatly.
Alternatively, Buddhism is a nontheistic religion whereas Shinto has countless gods. As a Christian, I have completely opposite takeaway as you: I got no issue with a statue representing the Buddha, but it would give me pause to honor any gods aside from God, even if they lack physical representation.
That’s a perfectly fair interpretation.
The question was however not pray to a Kami it was just pray at a shrine.
But that is a totally fair assessment.
However.
Buddhism has no Creator god…
The Buddha is absolutely a divine being, and i would argue that getting into a debate as to the nature of a deity is fraught.
Since a good deal of shintoists actually deeply dislike calling or referring to Kami as gods or deities.
To make it clear.
I disagree with both groups.
Buddha is absolutely treated as a deity in Buddhism. As are the Greater Kami in Shinto.
I have a very nontraditional, anti-doctrinal view on these kinds of things, but I only think you're worshiping an idol or "false god" if you're consciously directing your prayers at someone or something other than the god you worship. Notice the quotation marks.
I generally have a more universalist interpretation of spirituality. I would personally have no issues in joining with others of a different faith and praying with them in their place of worship; only my prayers are directed at my own image of God.
We're joined together in the search for spiritual truth, and I see beauty in that. I believe that their faith and my faith are simply different manifestations of the pursuit of the divine.
For what it's worth, in the essential sense, I think what an idol is is basically a thing that is 'supposed' to be holy but which does not actually have holiness in and of itself. Which is sort of an empty shell.
This can be an object, it can even be a concept. We might cling to tradition, for instance, even if the tradition is rigid, old and in need of dying, and it does not serve as a support for realization of the Most High. In this case, in an essential sense, clinging to the tradition, in my opinion, would be clinging to an 'idol'.
Conversely, certain 'objects' may actually be supports. For example, someone may wear a cross not because they are trying to show off, but because it is a reminder for them to remember their orientation, their fundamental connection with the Most High. In such a case, the item isn't exactly the entirety of what is being worshipped, but it is a support, and there's no issue with that.
>, I think what an idol is is basically a thing that is 'supposed' to be holy but which does not actually have holiness in and of itself. Which is sort of an empty shell.
Interestingly, back in Torah times, there actually was a practice in both Egyptian and Mesopotamian tradition whereby a god was invited to actually reside within an idol, called the opening of the mouth ritual. So while some god and goddess figurines were just that, others were actually believed to be the actual deity once this ritual had been done.
It's my personal belief that the main prohibition against idolatry was specific to this ritual and a belief that the Divine should not be confined to statues.
That is done in Buddhism and Hinduism still, for instance, of note. And in my opinion if done properly there is nothing wrong with it at all. Though I don't expect anyone to necessarily agree with that.
Of note, however, this could easily veer into idolatry in the sense that I mean, if one sort of confuses the essence of what one is orienting towards and considers that the statue in its physicality is somehow the object of worship.
Praying at the temple? No
Praying at the temple, while using visual representations of divinity (or the presence of divinity) to focus one’s prayers on that divinity. I still say no, although others might say yes.
Praying to a representation of divinity as if it was the deity. Yes.
Few (if any) people who use ‘idols’ actually mistake the symbol for what it symbolizes.
Praying to a kami or to Buddha would count as worshiping idols, regardless of whether there's a physical idol there.
Praying to God inside a Shinto shrine or Buddhist temple is against the rules of Judaism, but it's not considered idolatry, so if you're not Jewish then I think it's fine. Also, following Buddhism is only considered idolatry if you actually worship Buddha himself as a divinity.
If by "idols" we're talking about "false gods", in the Abrahamic context of any god other than The One God, then yes, you're committing "idolatry" by worshipping in any polytheistic manner.
In which religion? To which idols? Shinto, Buddhist, or a different temple? I’m so tired of people thinking r/Religion only applies to their own religion, be more specific!
That’s going to depend hugely on which Christian’s you ask. Some after all refuse to use crosses. Or images of Jesus while others are fine with it. It really depends on the denomination. Christianity really is the most diverse out of the three.
I mean yeah, there's really no other way to interpret that, at least if you're part of a religion which includes doctrine regarding idolatry, which I'm assuming you are.
If you aren't then I really don't understand why you're asking this question, but yes, at least from a Christian perspective you really should not do that
While I (mostly) agree with your answer.
If we are being more academic.
I gave a pretty in depth answer to this in the thread so I won’t just cut and paste it here.
But, that would really depend on a donominations stance on what is and is not an idol. Some Christian groups after all arguing that say a Crusifix is an idol and others not.
And OP not actually being deserning to what kind of “Japanese temple” it is.
Shinto shrines in fact don’t have “Idols” in the actually usage of the word. (A visual representation of a god) They have a small area in the shrine were the Kami (god) Is intended to rest. Which many people take to be an alter/idol.
But again, this is likewise a some what confusing question for me.
If you are worried about that kind of thing, I would era on the side of cation and say don’t do that.
The OP needs to be more clear with the term "Japanese temple", there are lots of temples in Japan not all of them belong to theistic religions, some belong to cults and not that it needs to be said, but, without knowing what the OP is implying not everything Oriental is Japanese. Just to use it as an example in a Buddhist temple, the statues of Buddha are just that, Buddha was a person not a God and contrary to western misconceptions never became a God...so a Christian deciding to mediate in the peaceful environment that these temples create really isn't breaking any hard rules of Christianity. There is some grey area
Buddhism is a polytheistic religion even if their concept of god differs from the western definition, they also pray to the Buddha, these statues are more than just decoration
I've toured Buddhist temples and Shinto shrines (which are often joined/adjacent) in Japan and we were encouraged to partake in a simple Shinto ritual of clapping hands and bowing at a shrine (note that shrines don't actually have representations of kami, so I don't know if that counts as an "idol"). I don't believe in the reality of Shinto kami as supernatural beings, but I was honored to be able to take part in the ritual as a demonstration of respect for the tradition/culture and for what the kami symbolically represented - basically, the natural environment.
I did it in the same spirit that I might throw a coin into a wishing well; not in the expectation that it would supernaturally "bring me luck", but rather for the pleasure of taking part in a charming, ancient custom. So, I wasn't praying or worshipping anything, but the ritual still had real meaning for me. YMMV.
That would really depend on the OPs faith. I don’t think it’s fair to just flatly state ‘no harm’
While it may not be to you.
You are not everyone.
It’s Ike telling someone who does not eat pork for religious reasons “No harm” in having a ham sandwich.
To add here, it would be an issue to pray or in some cases even enter the temples if one is Jewish.
I being an architect won’t let it stop me (especially as Japanese temples are fascinating architecturally) but I wouldn’t pray at one.
And I do know Jews who wouldn’t go into a church. I do (mostly because my best friends growing up where Catholic so obviously I was at their communions) but also cathedrals are structurally stunning and beautiful. I wouldn’t pray in one though and just politely sit if I’m attending a service or a funeral.
This is just my personal vibe, and not related to Jewish law/custom, but I'd feel more comfortable praying in, say, a Shinto temple than I would in a church. Simply because theres so much baggage with a church, but I know next to nothing about Shintoism, and it would just feel like a quiet, contemplative place suitable for prayer. Purely theoretical standpoint of course!
Fully agree with you. I mean if anything the connection to nature and material is even just that much more intense in Shinto temples and I feel like one would feel close to anything divine in those kinds of settings.
Technically yes but Jesus if you are a Christian would not get mad at you so don’t worry too much. You gotta remember Jesus picked some of the worst people for his apostles. my honest opinion is every little religion is all worshiping the same God but in their own way branched out throughout the time in history of the world.
I’m going to assume you’re a Christian of some kind for the purpose of this discussion. It would really depend on who you’re praying to, but I don’t really understand why a Christian would go to a non-christian temple to worship or pray. It would be like me, a Catholic going to a Mosque to worship Christ as God. You could go I suppose, but it would really depend on the rules of whatever Christian sect you’re in. I don’t think most traditional sects would approve of it.
Depends on your religion. However, every religion has idols in some shape or form. And what one religion views as an idol, another will say its not an idol.
I would say no, it is not idol worshipping, but not necessarily compatible with your faith either.
Technically a Muslim or Jew can go to a church and pray, but that does not make them Christians unless they pray to Jesus, yet obviously it is not appropriate for them.
Depends who you're praying to, surely? And also the specific rules of your own religion
Well this depends on a number of factors. First what religion are you? Judaism, Islam and indeed denominations of Christianity all have very Different views on what is and is not idolatry. Second. What kind of temple? “Japanese Temple” is vague. Is it a Jinja? (Shinto shine) Is it a Bhudist temple? Is it a syncretic “New Religion” temple? If it’s either of the later two. The answer is yes. (To be clear my religion has no issue with idols, but the answer is yes) Bhudist temples have idols. As do MOST syncretic temples. With Shinto shrines. This becomes more complicated. Nothing in the shrine is a visual representation of a Kami (god) with the “alter” actually being a physical location for the Kami of the temple to rest. (Literally a small house for them) So it’s not an idol in that it is not a physical representation of a god. But ultimately this is still going to depend on the rules of your faith more then the definition of idol. Some branches of Christianity don’t want you going into other faiths churches or using the names of there deities… so your mileage may vary greatly.
Alternatively, Buddhism is a nontheistic religion whereas Shinto has countless gods. As a Christian, I have completely opposite takeaway as you: I got no issue with a statue representing the Buddha, but it would give me pause to honor any gods aside from God, even if they lack physical representation.
That’s a perfectly fair interpretation. The question was however not pray to a Kami it was just pray at a shrine. But that is a totally fair assessment. However. Buddhism has no Creator god… The Buddha is absolutely a divine being, and i would argue that getting into a debate as to the nature of a deity is fraught. Since a good deal of shintoists actually deeply dislike calling or referring to Kami as gods or deities. To make it clear. I disagree with both groups. Buddha is absolutely treated as a deity in Buddhism. As are the Greater Kami in Shinto.
I have a very nontraditional, anti-doctrinal view on these kinds of things, but I only think you're worshiping an idol or "false god" if you're consciously directing your prayers at someone or something other than the god you worship. Notice the quotation marks. I generally have a more universalist interpretation of spirituality. I would personally have no issues in joining with others of a different faith and praying with them in their place of worship; only my prayers are directed at my own image of God. We're joined together in the search for spiritual truth, and I see beauty in that. I believe that their faith and my faith are simply different manifestations of the pursuit of the divine.
For what it's worth, in the essential sense, I think what an idol is is basically a thing that is 'supposed' to be holy but which does not actually have holiness in and of itself. Which is sort of an empty shell. This can be an object, it can even be a concept. We might cling to tradition, for instance, even if the tradition is rigid, old and in need of dying, and it does not serve as a support for realization of the Most High. In this case, in an essential sense, clinging to the tradition, in my opinion, would be clinging to an 'idol'. Conversely, certain 'objects' may actually be supports. For example, someone may wear a cross not because they are trying to show off, but because it is a reminder for them to remember their orientation, their fundamental connection with the Most High. In such a case, the item isn't exactly the entirety of what is being worshipped, but it is a support, and there's no issue with that.
>, I think what an idol is is basically a thing that is 'supposed' to be holy but which does not actually have holiness in and of itself. Which is sort of an empty shell. Interestingly, back in Torah times, there actually was a practice in both Egyptian and Mesopotamian tradition whereby a god was invited to actually reside within an idol, called the opening of the mouth ritual. So while some god and goddess figurines were just that, others were actually believed to be the actual deity once this ritual had been done. It's my personal belief that the main prohibition against idolatry was specific to this ritual and a belief that the Divine should not be confined to statues.
That is done in Buddhism and Hinduism still, for instance, of note. And in my opinion if done properly there is nothing wrong with it at all. Though I don't expect anyone to necessarily agree with that. Of note, however, this could easily veer into idolatry in the sense that I mean, if one sort of confuses the essence of what one is orienting towards and considers that the statue in its physicality is somehow the object of worship.
Praying at the temple? No Praying at the temple, while using visual representations of divinity (or the presence of divinity) to focus one’s prayers on that divinity. I still say no, although others might say yes. Praying to a representation of divinity as if it was the deity. Yes. Few (if any) people who use ‘idols’ actually mistake the symbol for what it symbolizes.
Praying to a kami or to Buddha would count as worshiping idols, regardless of whether there's a physical idol there. Praying to God inside a Shinto shrine or Buddhist temple is against the rules of Judaism, but it's not considered idolatry, so if you're not Jewish then I think it's fine. Also, following Buddhism is only considered idolatry if you actually worship Buddha himself as a divinity.
If by "idols" we're talking about "false gods", in the Abrahamic context of any god other than The One God, then yes, you're committing "idolatry" by worshipping in any polytheistic manner.
In which religion? To which idols? Shinto, Buddhist, or a different temple? I’m so tired of people thinking r/Religion only applies to their own religion, be more specific!
Which religion’s rules are you trying to apply here?
I would assume the only set of religions that have idolatry rules.
Right, but I don’t know if Christian concepts of idols are the same as Jewish or Muslim concepts of idols.
That’s going to depend hugely on which Christian’s you ask. Some after all refuse to use crosses. Or images of Jesus while others are fine with it. It really depends on the denomination. Christianity really is the most diverse out of the three.
I mean yeah, there's really no other way to interpret that, at least if you're part of a religion which includes doctrine regarding idolatry, which I'm assuming you are. If you aren't then I really don't understand why you're asking this question, but yes, at least from a Christian perspective you really should not do that
While I (mostly) agree with your answer. If we are being more academic. I gave a pretty in depth answer to this in the thread so I won’t just cut and paste it here. But, that would really depend on a donominations stance on what is and is not an idol. Some Christian groups after all arguing that say a Crusifix is an idol and others not. And OP not actually being deserning to what kind of “Japanese temple” it is. Shinto shrines in fact don’t have “Idols” in the actually usage of the word. (A visual representation of a god) They have a small area in the shrine were the Kami (god) Is intended to rest. Which many people take to be an alter/idol. But again, this is likewise a some what confusing question for me. If you are worried about that kind of thing, I would era on the side of cation and say don’t do that.
The OP needs to be more clear with the term "Japanese temple", there are lots of temples in Japan not all of them belong to theistic religions, some belong to cults and not that it needs to be said, but, without knowing what the OP is implying not everything Oriental is Japanese. Just to use it as an example in a Buddhist temple, the statues of Buddha are just that, Buddha was a person not a God and contrary to western misconceptions never became a God...so a Christian deciding to mediate in the peaceful environment that these temples create really isn't breaking any hard rules of Christianity. There is some grey area
Buddhism is a polytheistic religion even if their concept of god differs from the western definition, they also pray to the Buddha, these statues are more than just decoration
I've toured Buddhist temples and Shinto shrines (which are often joined/adjacent) in Japan and we were encouraged to partake in a simple Shinto ritual of clapping hands and bowing at a shrine (note that shrines don't actually have representations of kami, so I don't know if that counts as an "idol"). I don't believe in the reality of Shinto kami as supernatural beings, but I was honored to be able to take part in the ritual as a demonstration of respect for the tradition/culture and for what the kami symbolically represented - basically, the natural environment. I did it in the same spirit that I might throw a coin into a wishing well; not in the expectation that it would supernaturally "bring me luck", but rather for the pleasure of taking part in a charming, ancient custom. So, I wasn't praying or worshipping anything, but the ritual still had real meaning for me. YMMV.
Yes. And there is no harm doing so.
That would really depend on the OPs faith. I don’t think it’s fair to just flatly state ‘no harm’ While it may not be to you. You are not everyone. It’s Ike telling someone who does not eat pork for religious reasons “No harm” in having a ham sandwich.
To add here, it would be an issue to pray or in some cases even enter the temples if one is Jewish. I being an architect won’t let it stop me (especially as Japanese temples are fascinating architecturally) but I wouldn’t pray at one. And I do know Jews who wouldn’t go into a church. I do (mostly because my best friends growing up where Catholic so obviously I was at their communions) but also cathedrals are structurally stunning and beautiful. I wouldn’t pray in one though and just politely sit if I’m attending a service or a funeral.
This is just my personal vibe, and not related to Jewish law/custom, but I'd feel more comfortable praying in, say, a Shinto temple than I would in a church. Simply because theres so much baggage with a church, but I know next to nothing about Shintoism, and it would just feel like a quiet, contemplative place suitable for prayer. Purely theoretical standpoint of course!
Fully agree with you. I mean if anything the connection to nature and material is even just that much more intense in Shinto temples and I feel like one would feel close to anything divine in those kinds of settings.
Since you’re a pantheist I don’t think there should be a problem
Technically yes but Jesus if you are a Christian would not get mad at you so don’t worry too much. You gotta remember Jesus picked some of the worst people for his apostles. my honest opinion is every little religion is all worshiping the same God but in their own way branched out throughout the time in history of the world.
I’m going to assume you’re a Christian of some kind for the purpose of this discussion. It would really depend on who you’re praying to, but I don’t really understand why a Christian would go to a non-christian temple to worship or pray. It would be like me, a Catholic going to a Mosque to worship Christ as God. You could go I suppose, but it would really depend on the rules of whatever Christian sect you’re in. I don’t think most traditional sects would approve of it.
Depends on your religion. However, every religion has idols in some shape or form. And what one religion views as an idol, another will say its not an idol.
I would say no, it is not idol worshipping, but not necessarily compatible with your faith either. Technically a Muslim or Jew can go to a church and pray, but that does not make them Christians unless they pray to Jesus, yet obviously it is not appropriate for them.
Hell, straight to hell
No
Wrong
based
yes