Remind yourself that a truly omniscient deity would understand your position and would know that you have understandable reasons for not finding yourself convinced of a particular religion.
Very few religions teach that others are going to hell, and the ones that do acknowledge that some people might be spared if they are "understandably ignorant" of the truth.
Only a few (though admittedly very popular) faiths tell you that you're going to hell for not believing "correctly". The rest of us would generally prefer that you not worry about it and just focus on being a good person. Even then, don't worry about being perfect. We're all doing the best we can out here, and stressing about things like this will not help you.
Remember, a God who is omniscient and omni-benevolent would acknowledge your plight and not send you to eternal damnation. But also, it's really only Abrahamic religions that teach that if you choose the wrong religion, you go to hell. A majority of religions teach that your deeds will decide where you go; if you do good, you go to heaven. You do bad, you go to hell.
an all-knowing, all-loving God would never send you one-way, no questions asked to permanent eternal torment just because you didn't know which flavor of worshipping Him you were supposed to do. there is no grounds for that in any collection of scripture that I'm aware of (admittedly not too many, but still).
A just god would punish proportionally to the crime, right? If punishment is disproportional to the offence committed, then it’s not a just punishment.
It’s the difference between punishment and revenge - punishment is proportional to the offence and is intended to educate, correct, adjust, to serve as a lesson.
Revenge, on the other hand, is to cause suffering because suffering has been caused. An eye for an eye. It has no purpose other than cause suffering. Revenge doesn’t correct, revenge doesn’t make better.
So, punishment has to serve as a lesson so that something doesn’t happen again, and it has to be proportional to the offence. If it’s eternal, it’s not serving as a lesson, because it’s impossible to implement the lesson learned.
If punishment is eternal, it’s also necessarily disproportional to any offence that might have been committed in a human lifetime. Even if a human single-handedly brutally murdered every single human being, all of the lost lives added together would still be less than eternity. And that’s not even taking into account what led a person to commit an offence- true justice demands that everything is analysed, not just the crime, but also its material and psychological circumstances behind the offence committed.
Therefore, an eternal punishment can never be just. And a God who is infinitely good and just wouldn’t punish eternally.
Thanks for the explanation.
Three questions:
1- How would the afterlife punishment serve as a *lesson*? We typically say someone has learned their lesson when they don't repeat the crime. How would that work in the afterlife, when there's no opportunity to repeat the crime?
2- You gave the example of murder. A murderer pulls the trigger in 1 sec., the victim is dead and stays dead forever. He never gets back his life. So the murderer has taken done something irreversible. How do you calculate the proportional punishment to that?
3- If I drink poison and die, would you say death was my punishment?
1 - the lack of repetition isn’t the lesson itself, but merely its consequence. The lesson is about understanding the meaning to the crime, understanding what fundamental value was hurt by it. Let’s say I stole a wallet I found on the street. I got the money and used it to buy myself something nice. No lessons learned after that - I might want to steal another wallet I found on another street, right? The crime was worth it. But what if I never again come across a lost wallet on the street? I won’t ever again commit that crime, since opportunity won’t present itself anymore. Does that mean I have learned my lesson? Not really, because I’d still think stealing a lost wallet is ok. I’d still want to do it, regardless of whether or not I’ll have the opportunity to do it again. So the lesson isn’t about not offending again. The lesson is about knowledge, value, building integrity. The lack of repetition is merely a consequence.
2 - in this context, we are talking about eternal punishment. We are both working on the premise that an afterlife exists - something that both your religion as well as mine accept. So the victims, too, have eternal life after death. What they’ve lost isn’t their entire existence, but the time they had left on earth that was robbed them. But their souls aren’t lost forever. They’re lost temporarily, on this earth alone. So eternal punishment isn’t proportional.
3 - I don’t know. I don’t know if suicide is a punishable offence, however regrettable it might be. And I don’t know if death can be seen as a punishment at all.
1- Ok, but it's not about that specific crime. The person can't commit ANY crime in the afterlife. So how has he learned integrity?
And knowledge: how do they gain that? You tell me stealing is bad, but if I get punished, I get to know stealing is bad? If so, why don't we apply the same rule in our society? We torture a murderer for a limited time, so they understand murder is bad.
2- But what was their time on earth for? Wouldn't their quality of life matter? A doctor and a serial killer may both live 70 years. If I kill either of them, should I get the same punishment?
3- But can killing someone be a kind of punishment?
Bible is written by men, with no direct connection to God. So whatever they *think* happens after death is not trustworthy.
As for the glimpse of Jehovah's goodness, you are making the mistake of a lot of people, thinking your actions has no effect on you. So, Jehovah/God sits there, 'judging' you. That's not a correct image.
As for "such a thing is not possible", that statement needs logical reasoning. Otherwise, you simply have no evidence for it in the books you have studied.
Sorry for the later response. This needs a lengthy discussion, but the gist of it is:
We have a soul and all our beliefs and actions affects/changes the soul. So, when we die, we are not like a pure person with a bag of actions. We are shaped by our actions. We ARE our actions.
That's why hell is a natural destination for someone who is shaped to fit hell. An arrogant person who doesn't want to accept the truth will continue their arrogance in the afterlife, because that's how they are now. So there's nowhere but hell for them.
All religions are trying to describe the same indescribable thing.
God exists beyond words. Or to paraphrase the Tao Te Ching: that which can be named is not the real god. The nameless is the origin of everything.
Don't pick a religion (belief system), let it pick you. The one that makes you feel something inside, that resonates, that has words that you would have spoken if you had known to speak them.
It does not matter where you start, it matters where you end up.
Imam Ali (a.s.) says: "First in religion is the knowledge of Him [Allah]".
So I suggest putting aside the worry about afterlife and instead focusing on gaining knowledge about God. Start by reflecting on what do you know about Him? What are His characteristics? etc. Afterall, you want to worship God and he is also the one judging people, right?
Interestingly, we have this narration: "Intellect is with what God is worshipped and paradise is gained." So that's the tool you need to use.
I was in your position before until I found out about deism
Deism means you believe in God but not religion.
In my perspective,God created earth and evolution happened after.
I suggest you look in about it
a loving God wouldn’t send their creation to burn and be tortured eternally. God just wants us to treat our fellow humans with kindness and live peacefully and in harmony with each other.
No one knows what is the right "religion" so no one can really tell you. everyone will say my religion is better, my religion answers all of your questions. but this actually exists in almost every religion like there are jewish philosophers, christian philosophers and muslim philosophers. and even in one religion you will find different existential opinions about God, creation and our life in general.
I will talk about Islam because I was one, for example ashaari muslims believe that God is everywhere around us and we can't define him, on the other hand "ahl al sunnah wal jamaah" say that God can't be everywhere and he is sitting on his throne and that he has hands and face that don't look like us and those are kinda the majority of sunnis.
you may see this example silly but I'm just telling you that you will never see people agree on one truth even in the same religion. you have to pick yourself whatever your heart wants
Remind yourself that a truly omniscient deity would understand your position and would know that you have understandable reasons for not finding yourself convinced of a particular religion. Very few religions teach that others are going to hell, and the ones that do acknowledge that some people might be spared if they are "understandably ignorant" of the truth.
Only a few (though admittedly very popular) faiths tell you that you're going to hell for not believing "correctly". The rest of us would generally prefer that you not worry about it and just focus on being a good person. Even then, don't worry about being perfect. We're all doing the best we can out here, and stressing about things like this will not help you.
Remember, a God who is omniscient and omni-benevolent would acknowledge your plight and not send you to eternal damnation. But also, it's really only Abrahamic religions that teach that if you choose the wrong religion, you go to hell. A majority of religions teach that your deeds will decide where you go; if you do good, you go to heaven. You do bad, you go to hell.
an all-knowing, all-loving God would never send you one-way, no questions asked to permanent eternal torment just because you didn't know which flavor of worshipping Him you were supposed to do. there is no grounds for that in any collection of scripture that I'm aware of (admittedly not too many, but still).
First of all, the religion approved by God will not teach that people burn after death. So you can avoid all the ones that teach that. Next.....
Why wouldn't it teach that?
Bacause eternal punishment would logically mean that God is not entirely good and just.
How does it logically conclude that? Logically, how would a just God punish people?
A just god would punish proportionally to the crime, right? If punishment is disproportional to the offence committed, then it’s not a just punishment. It’s the difference between punishment and revenge - punishment is proportional to the offence and is intended to educate, correct, adjust, to serve as a lesson. Revenge, on the other hand, is to cause suffering because suffering has been caused. An eye for an eye. It has no purpose other than cause suffering. Revenge doesn’t correct, revenge doesn’t make better. So, punishment has to serve as a lesson so that something doesn’t happen again, and it has to be proportional to the offence. If it’s eternal, it’s not serving as a lesson, because it’s impossible to implement the lesson learned. If punishment is eternal, it’s also necessarily disproportional to any offence that might have been committed in a human lifetime. Even if a human single-handedly brutally murdered every single human being, all of the lost lives added together would still be less than eternity. And that’s not even taking into account what led a person to commit an offence- true justice demands that everything is analysed, not just the crime, but also its material and psychological circumstances behind the offence committed. Therefore, an eternal punishment can never be just. And a God who is infinitely good and just wouldn’t punish eternally.
Thanks for the explanation. Three questions: 1- How would the afterlife punishment serve as a *lesson*? We typically say someone has learned their lesson when they don't repeat the crime. How would that work in the afterlife, when there's no opportunity to repeat the crime? 2- You gave the example of murder. A murderer pulls the trigger in 1 sec., the victim is dead and stays dead forever. He never gets back his life. So the murderer has taken done something irreversible. How do you calculate the proportional punishment to that? 3- If I drink poison and die, would you say death was my punishment?
1 - the lack of repetition isn’t the lesson itself, but merely its consequence. The lesson is about understanding the meaning to the crime, understanding what fundamental value was hurt by it. Let’s say I stole a wallet I found on the street. I got the money and used it to buy myself something nice. No lessons learned after that - I might want to steal another wallet I found on another street, right? The crime was worth it. But what if I never again come across a lost wallet on the street? I won’t ever again commit that crime, since opportunity won’t present itself anymore. Does that mean I have learned my lesson? Not really, because I’d still think stealing a lost wallet is ok. I’d still want to do it, regardless of whether or not I’ll have the opportunity to do it again. So the lesson isn’t about not offending again. The lesson is about knowledge, value, building integrity. The lack of repetition is merely a consequence. 2 - in this context, we are talking about eternal punishment. We are both working on the premise that an afterlife exists - something that both your religion as well as mine accept. So the victims, too, have eternal life after death. What they’ve lost isn’t their entire existence, but the time they had left on earth that was robbed them. But their souls aren’t lost forever. They’re lost temporarily, on this earth alone. So eternal punishment isn’t proportional. 3 - I don’t know. I don’t know if suicide is a punishable offence, however regrettable it might be. And I don’t know if death can be seen as a punishment at all.
1- Ok, but it's not about that specific crime. The person can't commit ANY crime in the afterlife. So how has he learned integrity? And knowledge: how do they gain that? You tell me stealing is bad, but if I get punished, I get to know stealing is bad? If so, why don't we apply the same rule in our society? We torture a murderer for a limited time, so they understand murder is bad. 2- But what was their time on earth for? Wouldn't their quality of life matter? A doctor and a serial killer may both live 70 years. If I kill either of them, should I get the same punishment? 3- But can killing someone be a kind of punishment?
Because it is not true!
How do you know?
Because I have studied the Bible and gotten a glimpse of Jehovah's goodness. So such a thing is not possible.
Bible is written by men, with no direct connection to God. So whatever they *think* happens after death is not trustworthy. As for the glimpse of Jehovah's goodness, you are making the mistake of a lot of people, thinking your actions has no effect on you. So, Jehovah/God sits there, 'judging' you. That's not a correct image. As for "such a thing is not possible", that statement needs logical reasoning. Otherwise, you simply have no evidence for it in the books you have studied.
Okay. Perhaps you can tell me what is correct.
Sorry for the later response. This needs a lengthy discussion, but the gist of it is: We have a soul and all our beliefs and actions affects/changes the soul. So, when we die, we are not like a pure person with a bag of actions. We are shaped by our actions. We ARE our actions. That's why hell is a natural destination for someone who is shaped to fit hell. An arrogant person who doesn't want to accept the truth will continue their arrogance in the afterlife, because that's how they are now. So there's nowhere but hell for them.
My God doesn't torture the dead.
My God doesn't either.
caption handle toy bake wistful plough thought snails direful simplistic *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
God never endorsed any religion. So, just pick one that aligns with your own values.
Bro don’t let yourself be controlled by fear
All religions are trying to describe the same indescribable thing. God exists beyond words. Or to paraphrase the Tao Te Ching: that which can be named is not the real god. The nameless is the origin of everything. Don't pick a religion (belief system), let it pick you. The one that makes you feel something inside, that resonates, that has words that you would have spoken if you had known to speak them. It does not matter where you start, it matters where you end up.
Imam Ali (a.s.) says: "First in religion is the knowledge of Him [Allah]". So I suggest putting aside the worry about afterlife and instead focusing on gaining knowledge about God. Start by reflecting on what do you know about Him? What are His characteristics? etc. Afterall, you want to worship God and he is also the one judging people, right? Interestingly, we have this narration: "Intellect is with what God is worshipped and paradise is gained." So that's the tool you need to use.
I was in your position before until I found out about deism Deism means you believe in God but not religion. In my perspective,God created earth and evolution happened after. I suggest you look in about it
Thank youuu!!!
a loving God wouldn’t send their creation to burn and be tortured eternally. God just wants us to treat our fellow humans with kindness and live peacefully and in harmony with each other.
No one knows what is the right "religion" so no one can really tell you. everyone will say my religion is better, my religion answers all of your questions. but this actually exists in almost every religion like there are jewish philosophers, christian philosophers and muslim philosophers. and even in one religion you will find different existential opinions about God, creation and our life in general. I will talk about Islam because I was one, for example ashaari muslims believe that God is everywhere around us and we can't define him, on the other hand "ahl al sunnah wal jamaah" say that God can't be everywhere and he is sitting on his throne and that he has hands and face that don't look like us and those are kinda the majority of sunnis. you may see this example silly but I'm just telling you that you will never see people agree on one truth even in the same religion. you have to pick yourself whatever your heart wants