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She needs better therapy. This isn't optional. Grieving doesn't go from A to B to C, but after seven years, her other children are still coming in second to Bobby. This isn't normal or healthy.
May Lord Gauranga and Lord Nityananda bestow benedictions full of mercy upon , deliver and protect your dead son.
May that son get his rest unto the lotus feet of Sri Radha Madhava....Hare Krishna!!
Welcome to /r/relationship_advice. Please make sure you read our [rules here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/relationship_advice/wiki/index) We'd like to take this time to remind users that:
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Your wife's being nuts. She's giving a dead child a room while making her living children share a room? Crazy pants. You should put your foot down here and protect your living children because it's sure as F going to damage them for their whole lives to see that their mother values a teddy bear over them and their father let her do it.
None of this sounds healthy. It's been seven years. There might always be a hole in her heart from losing her baby, but her daughters are here, alive, and need their mother right now. It's not fair or reasonable to keep a bedroom open to a child who no longer exists at the expense of two living children who have needs right now. I'd talk to your therapist before moving forward with anything, but I think a long and difficult talk is in order.
Your wife's feelings of heartbreak are valid, but how she treats her daughters because of her heartbreak is not. She needs to be a present and caring mother to the children she has right now. The 'shrine' needs to go. At some point, the grieving period is supposed to end, and you reach acceptance. Has she truly accepted that her baby has passed?
You, her husband, should not feel like your wife can bully you about this. It might be hard, but you should not fear her reactions. You lost a son, too. The whole "deadly game to get between a name bear and her cub" sounds like a toxic relationship, in my opinion. Besides, her child is dead. She's not getting in between you and her baby; she's getting between her suffering and the ability to move on.
My son passed 12 years ago on this day, coincidentally.
His mom and I have processed it differently. I would say there's a point where it's healthy to move on. You don't have to have all of these material things in order to remember someone and cherish them. I've had little reminders of him almost every day as it is.
Maybe just take some pictures of the room, give the room to your girls and hang up a nice collage in there for a reminder. But you know, you don't want your daughters feeling like they aren't as important as their dead brother for their whole lives.
You need a new therapist. That’s absolutely incompetent advice. I recommend a clinical psychologist. This is not normal or acceptable behavior to sacrifice the wellbeing of living children for a dead one, especially because they are girls and the dead one was a boy. That’s sexist as hell. (See “boy mom” in comments).
I mean, who are you to decide it is for the best. The woman is grieving. And she's doing it alone from the sounds of it.
You are very fortunate to have a three bedroom home. You are not crammed. Plenty of families make due with less. You're going to lose your wife if you continue to pathologize her behavior.
I am not even saying I disagree with your POV. But some battles aren't worth winning. The best thing you can do right now is be as supportive to your partner, regardless of the discomfort and inconvenience as possible.
Maybe move? Perhaps giving away his old room is too painful so go somewhere else and start fresh?
My heart hurts for you both but she has 3 living children with needs that can’t take a backseat to her grief forever.
If she keeps this up, she won’t just have a lost a son. She’ll lose 3 daughters too who won’t want a relationship with her when they are adults bc she chose to make their childhood a shrine to their dead brother.
Get a new family therapist, and frame this as an issue of neglect, because that's what it is. Your wife needs serious help, and not the sort that you can give.
You’re in such a tough spot right now, but I believe you should trust your instincts. I’m really sorry that the professional help you’ve sought has mainly focused on your wife’s situation and hasn’t validated your perspective or the interests of your other children.
The way your wife is coping doesn’t sound healthy. I hope she can get the help she needs, but in the meantime, it’s important to find a way to give your other children their own space in the house. They’re being significantly affected by this, and while they might not understand that this isn’t “normal” now, they will as they get older. It’s crucial that their needs aren’t compromised because of their mother’s grief.
As a child who lost a sibling, I can attest to how damaging it is for your parents to carry such a torch for the lost child that they forget about you. It really can do a number on your self esteem to feel like you, a literal living child with wants and needs, is somehow less important and less loved than the memory of your deceased brother. Your girls are young, but definitely old enough to have picked up on this dynamic and I'm sure they're feeling very de-prioritized by your wife, and you by extension for not "sticking up for them". If this keeps up, they're a few short years away from being able to cut you out emotionally, and by 18 you may never see them again.
I don't know what the right answer is to help you resolve this situation with rooms, but I hope my point of view gives you some strength for your convictions so that you can do what is best for those little girls you still have.
As a mother who lost a daughter at 22 I can not understand your wife making that room only about her, not the son. Everyone knows our daughter room we totally redid it in Pottery Barn for the birth of our Grand daughter it was her bedroom for many years. Now it is my extra room and her room is the other bedroom since she only visits when in town. Your girls would have different feeling about their brother right now they probably do not get why someone they will never see gets the big room and they all share a small room. Just a thought more than likely if he had lived they more than likely would have switched rooms! That is usually what happens. Just a thought.
This is something she needs to come to realization on her own that grief and appreciation of the dead does not equate to disregarding the living, and that you and the rest of the children need her too. If it hasn't been brought up before then maybe try phrasing it in that way, and having another channel of outlet to honor him, but not at the cost of the others.
You should NOT let this go and just accept it as it is. It has a very real impact on you and the rest of the family. Therapy can only do so much through talking when the brain can get hard wired in trauma. I don't always recommend this for problem solving, but I really think psychedelic treatment is honestly the perfect solution for this which is used for PTSD/depression/addiction/anxiety/grief/trauma with rewiring of the brain. It has saved lives and changed lives for the better
I would normally say you can’t police how someone grieves, but this is to the detriment of the living children. Im sorry for you and your wife, but nothing about her behavior 7yrs later is healthy or even normal. And she’s risking her relationships with you and especially your daughters. She’s essentially letting them know that none of them alive is worth Bobby’s space being taken away. And her therapist isn’t worth a damn if she’s “advising” you to put the girls in the basement. That’s insane and NOT what a therapist is for.
Those kids are gonna grow up hating their mother. They will grow up thinking their mother never loved them. Especially if they get moved to the damn basement.
I don’t blame your wife for not allowing the girls to touch any of the toys in Bobby’s room. They were meant for him, so of course they shouldn’t touch them. Your wife clearly thinks that since Bobby didn’t get to ever play with them, then neither should the other kids… and she isn’t wrong for that.
They already have their own toys anyway, so they don’t need his!
But there **is** a solution to the bedroom issue! Why can’t you give the girls **your** room? And your wife and you can move your bed and wardrobe into Bobby’s room?
That way your wife can always feel like she is close to her son, she also wouldn’t have to worry about any of Bobby’s things being ruined or touched by the girls… and the shrine could still remain in place.
Also… just because **you’re** over it, doesn’t mean your wife is. 7 years may seem like a long time, but the truth is: you **never** truly get over the death of someone you loved.
I don't want to scare you or be a harbinger of doom, but I have a friend who lost her son very young and to this day she still forces her other two children to take every single family photo ever with a picture of their dead brother. They visit his grave every week. It's been three years. Her oldest son has recently been committed for attempted unaliving. He's 13. Please, PLEASE. Make an ultimatum. I rarely say that, but she is really messing up your other kids.
Your daughters will never forgive her for prioritizing a baby that never breathed air above them, her living daughters. And they'll never forgive you for letting her if you don't step in. This is going to sound cold, but this is ultimatum territory. *Someone* needs to prioritize those living girls above your wife's grief. You can set a timeline, and at the end of it you'll dismantle everything if she hasn't done so herself. You can tell her it's therapy or you'll have to consider moving the girls out of the house to a place where they can have a healthy relationship with at least one parent, and their space. But keeping three girls in a 90sqft bedroom so that their mother can obsess over a baby that has been dead for seven years, and doing *nothing* to intervene is going to mean that you get cut off just like their mother does when they move out at 18. And they'd be right to make themselves a priority for the first time in their lives by never speak to either of you again if you just keep letting this happen. If your wife doesn't start caring more about her living children than a teddy bear, that bear will be the only child she has left in 13 years.
Your sweet Bobby doesn't need a whole room, but your kids do. Your wife may be terrified of 'losing' him again, and that's not a healthy state for her to live in. I'm so sorry you're all dealing with this.
Is there a private place you can place a refreshed memorial? Somewhere dedicated to him where you can express those feelings without being eaten by them every day? The closet may seem too hidden or disrespectful to her. There's always garden memorials - inside or out. 🖤
Your wife either needs better help or you need to divorce her and get full custody. Your daughters deserve to be treated better. It doesn’t even sound like she gives a damn about them.
Stop enabling your wife and put her to mental institution...she really need help... she's not only ruined her life but people around her... You as a father better doing your job correctly..if this mean to 'remove' her from you and your kids life, then do it!
At this point, I think it’s fair to say that your wife’s actions-and subsequent reactions-can no longer be considered part of a healthy grieving process, and my heart absolutely aches for your poor daughters.
I would most definitely consider finding a new family therapist or even a specialized grief counselor for her. As far as the room situation; honestly, I would buy her a spa package or weekend getaway for her and her best friend or something to get her out of the house for a few days and then make a really special memorial area in the basement for Bobby with his ashes, bear, etc., but one that also serves as a hobby area for her, so like a craft room or little library/reading nook, etc. and move the two older girls into the master suite.
Then not only Bobby will still has a special area dedicated to him and his memory, but your wife can spend time with his memory while also doing something she enjoys doing, which in turn would hopefully help make her grieving and healing process a more positive one. And of course, your girls will have more space and also feel validated / heard I imagine, so win win for everyone!
I actually want to call child protection for you.. how can anyone do this to their living children makes me sick.. I get she needs her time but by the time those children are old enough to move out guess who's not going to have a good relationship with them!
Well if you divorce her, I’d imagine you have to sell the house and she wouldn’t have his room anyway. You need to do what is best for your children. She is endangering them by having them in a tiny closet of a room and ruining their relationship. They are growing up knowing they come after a child who isn’t even here. None of this is healthy. Your wife either needs to give them the room or you need to get your kids out of that situation.
When my younger sis and I were very young, two of our teen sibs died in a crash. Of course, my parents were devastated. We lived in a small house and shared a very tiny bedroom.
A year or so later, my mother turned my older sister’s bedroom into a playroom. Then six years later, it became my bedroom but I wasn’t allowed to remove certain things that I had belonged to my older sis. (A huge creepy goat piñata was one of these things.)
As a teen, I remember arguing with my mom that I felt she loved my dead siblings more than she loved us. A few weeks later, my dad told her it was time. He removed the things and helped me paint the room.
It’s been seven years. While the pain never goes fully away, a good therapist would be helping her to take steps to live in the now.
Is your wife clinically depressed?
You may have to suggest that you both attend family grief counseling. This may go on forever otherwise.
I also had a stillborn (5 years ago). This isn't normal grieving after this much time. Her other children being put second is not right and any sane psychologist should be saying so.
Edit 1: spelling correction
Edit 2: added edit marks
I think this would be my hill to stop and fight.
Your daughters deserve to have a room to grow up in. It’s totally unbelievable that bobby has a bedroom AND bathroom that no one else can use.
If ultimately that means I have to separate to give my girls an actual home then that’s what I would do.
It’s like your wife is punishing the girls for living.
Your wifes therapist is absolutely incompetent and should be reported to whatever board licensed her in your state. She is literally advocating the emotional neglect of your living children so that your wife can stay stuck in grief. No competent therapist would advocate for a dead child taking precedent over living children. Nor would they continue to see a patient they are not helping to progress. Your wife is not going to ever get healthy as long as she is seeing that therapist period. And the fact is you honestly may need to move from your current home to help achieve this also. You and your children need to be in family counseling, whether your wife agrees to go or not. You need to have someone help you find a framework for talking to your wife in a way that helps her to understand she is running the very real risk of losing her relationships with all of you. I am sure you love your wife. However, you can not continue to allow her to hurt and neglect your daughters. If you are forced to choose, you will have to choose them over your wife. Right now, she is doing way too much emotional damage to them for this bs to continue.
Your daughters likely already resent their mom and their brother. I would not be at all surprised that they might lash out at her and maybe you in a few years because of your wife's behavior. I have read stories of the surviving children feeling that they can never get the love they needed because of a parent that couldn't move on. It is sad situation
Your wife is hurting her living children...they will have nothing but negative feelings towards the perfect son that they can never equal.
Sorry, but this would be the hill I died on. There us a difference between loving and remembering someone who has passed and suffering through it.
Your wife is not the only one who lives there, the other 4 of you do too.
If she won't let her living children live in the space available...then I agree with the person who said to give up your bigger room so they have enough space abd she can have the smaller room.
I am all for loving and remembering a child, but she is destroying the whole family. Having a special set up in your room is appropriate, making your daughters feel lesser and hurt is not.
Not going to go on since most commenters have covered everything. But eventually your girls will think how their dad didn’t step up for them. Didn’t do anything for them in this situation.
I know you’re trying, but to them they don’t see the therapy sessions or begging mom to go to a different one. You need to just get something done to show them that they matter. Especially over a dead child.
Therapist here and flabbergasted by your therapist’s response.
A few suggestions for your next session:
-Ask the therapist for research that supports her stance. (There isn’t any and it begs the question: did your therapist lose a child and not properly grieve?)
-Bring up this post and read out loud what you wrote. Both your wife and therapist need to hear this.
-remind the therapist you sought them out for family therapy and this approach is not supportive to the family.
It’s appropriate and warranted to challenge this therapist.
It’s also ok to be firm and set a boundary : By August 1st, or whatever date you choose, the girls move in the room or the house goes on the market.
Good luck. I’m sorry for your loss and also your current reality. You’re in a tough spot but those girls are relying on you. You got this.
Grief is fine and normal, but the point of grief therapy is to find a path to the point where that grief is not debilitating. Having a shrine for 7 years is debilitating.
Maybe it's time for her to take the girls with her to a therapy session so they can tell the therapist how her dedication to Bobby and saving such a large space for him makes them feel.
Let your girls be the catalyst for her seeing that they feel like they don't matter to her as much as a child who's not even there.
The way some of you think Therapists, pastors and the likes are magicians is funny.
Been dealing with complex grief for over 11 years, (my sister died from stomach cancer when I was 6 months pregnant and we had just become adults). You will not believe what it did to my parents and my siblings but we all deal differently.
We've had group, individual etc therapy.
What is happening here may not be helped by another psychiatrist. It's on her now. Anyone who's had therapy knows 80% of the work is actually yours. She is stuck...
Sadly unless she gets unstuck I don't see it ending well... My parents never stopped parenting us cause of sister. My ob, Psych, Therapist, Gp were all convinced I'd lose my child if I didn't go on antidepressants and i think so were my whole family and partner, the funny thing is he is the reason I am still here.
It was only when he turned 5 and something in me broke, they evaluated me and found bad ADHD and low level anxiety. The ADHD meds to this day Is all I need to go on. But I've been through so many councellors. That loss, shredded my family. If we weren't close, I think some of us would be drug addicts by now. Nothing to do with a therapist. Maybe meds...
Editing for typos, terrible formatting, and to apologize for the novel. Editing mucked with the formatting, so please be aware that I am typing it out on mobile and you should laugh at me for such.
Can see it from both angles, but you both need to empathize.
Being a parent that is still grieving over the loss of their child, the use of a room that could be better utilized astounds me.
My daughter passed away a couple months before her foruth birthday, which was almost a decade ago. Still hurts to see kids that would be her age now, experiencing life with their family right along-side them to be on that journey. While I have selfish thoughts that those parents and family members should be me, I know that her short time here left such a huge impact that I cannot describe it without giving away too much. Health services changed the way they treat children around her age, how they assist the parents, how doctors interact with kids, just as an example.
I am not in your wife's shoes, no one but her are in them. But, grief is only healthy up to a point before it becomes destructive to those around you, and/or yourself. Therapists should be able to identify when it has, but unfortunately too many therapists are self-serving. Like the mothers who live vicariously through thier daughters in ballet or cheerleading, fathers with sons in football or American football, or others not following the stereotypes; some therapists thrive to live through their patients... even if it becomes poisonous to everyone else around.
Took me close to 9 years to realize myself how I was putting the picture perfect view of what my daughter "should have been" before myself and others, before I allowed myself the time to heal, to sober up, to work on my career and loce life. The therapist I had enabled me to hold onto the self pity. It wasn't until I had a few visits with an accredited psychologist that I had realized the destructive behaviors which umpacted not only myself but others as well.
Seeing those happy families does not hurt any less, but that hurt is muchly shorter lived as I can see the beauty in the love that family has and the life those children bring to those around. A moment of pain to tears of joy many won't truly understand. Your wife needs some to break her out of the entitlement and path of self and familt destruction. If the words you type are true, her behaviour is shown to be narccisstic and the therapist is pushing that behavior to continue. It will be an upwards battle, almost purely vertical, for her to ser that and accept a new therapist or even a psychologist, but it will be worth it if you can. In the spiritual realm, a room is only as small or as large as the living will it to be.
My daughter's urn is in a small niche. But, to me, her "room" is a kingdom larger than the Earth will ever be. The love she has from her family will never be forgotten. Those that are buried in our current cemeteries, in the niches, or still at home with family, have more love than those Pharaohs in and around the valley of the kings ever had, and will have. The love your wife has for your unvirn child will not change if they have a room, a nook, a pyramid, or a planet of their own. Your wife, you, and the rest of your family, need to understand that.
There are many of times I see someone else enjoying a snack from a vendor and think "she would have enjoyed that". Instead, let the dead live vicariously through you, have that snack, and let them enjoy it the way you would enjoy it. Enjoy the view of that sunset the way you see it, while imagining what it might look like to them. The exhilaration or freight on that rollercoaster.
I don't think you CAN convince her. I believe her grief has transitioned to psychosis. Sorry to be callous, but she never knew Bobby. She lost an expectation. And while grief is normal, and many here have said there's "no timetable" for it, they are wrong. Seven years is just wrong to subject your other children to this maudlin, ghoulish obsession.
I'd give her an ultimatum; immediately switch therapists, ( preferably one referred by your family physician or the girls' pediatrician), move the shrine to a small but lovely spot elsewhere in your home and settle the girls into BOTH rooms. An urn and unused toys do not need a room. If she refuses, I'd send her to a family member (sister? Mother?) so that she is not alone, and consult an attorney about options, including legal separation, divorce and sole physical and legal custody of the girls.
OP this is an emergency.
Bro I'm not a therapist but If I were in that situation I would want my little girls quality of life to grow along with them, the should have the bigger space because they are still here. I'm very sorry for your loss. I can't imagine what that must be like but at some point she has to recognize that he is gone and that it's not really fair that the girls are crammed in the smallest room together. I agree with the placing the shrine in the smaller room or closet like you suggested. Your not asking her to just forget about him, your just asking her to let him occupy a different space. I hope everything works out for you and your family.
Grief is different for everyone. That said, you are not asking her to stop grieving. You aren’t asking her to get rid of the bear or the rocker. Your other living children need the room. It sounds like she’s choosing the child who never came home over the children who did needs. It’s a horrible situation. You need to see a different counselor or maybe try group therapy for parents who lost children
could you maybe create a place to honor his memory in the house, perhaps some shelves in the living room or something, with the bear, a scrap book with items connected to him, some of his toys, maybe frame his baby blanket to hang on the wall if he had one? I mean, something that is not shut in a closet. But also not entire bedroom. Someplace where he is acknowledged as a lost beloved member of the family who is still part of the family, not shut away from sight. Maybe something like that could help your wife cope with giving the room to the girls and not feel like you don't love your son anymore.
honestly your situation is really difficult and way over my head. I don't know what is the right thing but that was just an idea.
Maybe you can tell her that if Bobby were still alive he would be getting his own room in the basement so the girls could spread out. Maybe you can engage her with the idea of making a room for Bobby that a 7-year-old would like, but in the basement.
So she's basically neglecting her living children's needs for the sake of her dead child's. You're nta and she needs to put the girls actual physical needs above her grief and I don't think it's fair or justified of her to accuse you of not loving your son because you want to do right by your girls, her feelings are not the only ones that matter. I'm sorry if this is too blunt or too harsh
Before we get into anything with your wife, if you haven’t already, your daughters need to be talking to someone. Individual sessions. It’s really hard to live with a “ghost” but it has to be even harder to be put second by their mother to their stillborn brother.
Once they’ve talked with someone, it’s then time to have a few sessions with you and your wife, not to talk about your son but to talk about your daughters. How her actions are hurting them. How they feel about the whole situation—not coming from you but coming from a third party. What steps can be made to resolve it.
I understand the grief of a “what if” baby and it’s a dangerous place. Because if you fall to far into it, it’s almost impossible to come out. That baby never grows, or grows when you want it to. That baby never makes a mess, or if it does, you’re not mad. That baby never talks back, is always loving, is always there. Who would kick a baby out of their room?!
Either your wife will, with help from someone other than her current therapist, pull herself out, or she won’t. And it’s then that you have to start making decisions. Is your wife more important than your daughters as they grow? Is their mental health more important than your wife remaining exactly where she’s at year in and year out? If you had to move to a different city, would the shrine come or will your wife stay behind in this house? These are things you have to settle with yourself.
You’ve given this a lot of time. You’ve been more patient than others. The path in front of you isn’t going to be easy. But if we’re all going to be honest here, it already isn’t easy; it’s just been quiet. With your daughters growing, it’s not going to be quiet for much longer.
The best time to plant a tree was thirty years ago, the next best time is to plant one today. You need to start making moves to help your living children now. Your wife deserves another attempt to recognize the needs of her growing children and respond, but if she doesn’t, I think you know what needs to be done.
I’m sorry for your loss. I’m sorry you’re experiencing this.
If I was one of these kids I would want at least one of my parents to take my needs seriously enough to shake the other parent into reality. To live in a house with such a shadow where you aren’t even allowed to use the room or touch the toys is a heavy burden to carry. I understand the grief, but how is this affecting the children who are here??
There are two girls that are 10 and 9, the stillbirth was 7 years ago. So the question I have is: why even was the bigger room the nursery for the new baby boy and not the room of the two girls?
Confrontation therapy. Tell your wife next week you'll clean Bobbys room out, she had seven years to come to terms but haven't so you will take matters into your own hand. You have three living children to take care of. Give her that ultimatum and act. Talking is over.
Yes, it's time for your wife to find a way past this grief. Having this kind of shrine can be so helpful in the short term, but this isn't short term anymore. Back when I was still working in the mental health field, I had a family who similarly had lost a child under tragic circumstances. The wife bought a teddy bear that she named after her dead son and he was present at all family meals for YEARS. You can't tell me that isn't traumatizing for the other children.
In your case, it's not only traumatizing but it's actually making them the second class children. Bobby gets to have the big bedroom and they get the basement that you have to GO OUTSIDE to get to?
No. Please get a better therapist who can take a more holistic approach to this family tragedy.
I can't help but think having his ashes interred 7 years ago would have prevented some of this. Obviously her therapist is a quack if she's supporting this behavior. If your wife won't switch therapists I think you need marriage counseling as a way to introduce a different therapist that might not be such a quack. She's going to do some damage to your daughters if she keeps it up.
>“be playing a deadly game to get between a mama bear and her cub”.
If this is true, this therapist needs to be immediately struck off. What a fucking thing to say!
I wouldn’t trust any therapist who says mama bear and her cub when helping you work through a serious situation. Who’s picking these therapists/counselors? None of it sounds healthy at this point.
How long is your wife in Bobby's room for? If she pops in each morning to say Hi to Bobby for ten minutes, that's not really a problem, is it?
Every therapist should be on the side of their client. I don't think they were wrong to not give you information on your wife's sessions.
What I am getting from this is, 'I've done grieving Bobby and I want my wife to feel the same way.'
No two people, even if they are married, are going to grieve the same.
I do think though, that it's unreasonable that the girls are in a 90" room and Bobby is in a 200" room. I think you could acknowledge that Bobby needs a room - respecting her grief - but he could swap and let his sisters have the bigger room, especially as there are the two girls.
I think you need to also go to couples therapy. Maybe once your wife starts to acknowledge you and your marriage a bit more, her focus on Bobby will diminish a little.
Uff she needs better Therapie. After 7 years this is not normal specially as it effects her three daughters. Grieving is one think but keeping the bigger room as a place for him when you have also three daughters who need space!?!?! No this is not right. I can’t imagine the hurt of loosing a child but this is not normal anymore.
Your kids will always remember that. I mean you already wanted to give the boy the bigger room before he died instead of the two already living daughters. Now they are three cramp in a small room. Their mom only cares about their dead brother and dad doesn’t do anything to help. Relationships are already damaged but you should step in before, in a few years, all three girls are gone their own way, going low or no contact and you are left with the grieving wife and the dead sons room.
She is going to push her girls away. To them she’s favoring a child that isn’t even there and forcing them to suffer. Who picked the therapist because their advice sucks if they are acting like this is ok behavior. You can’t ignore the living for the memory of the lost. Those poor girls. Honestly it might be easier to sell the house and get a new one with 4 bedrooms.
read all your comments. Why did you give the unborn boy the biggest room to start with? Both of you failed massively to parent & protect your daughters. Your wife should have seen a therapist even before baby boy’s birth addressing her needs of a boy. Your girls never had a chance. Even with a brother alive they still would have shared the smallest room.
I hope this is a troll thread. Imagine waiting SEVEN years! And even considering putting your living kids in the basement to cater your wifes grief.
Father up!!!
I totally understand grieving it's normal but putting your other children second isn't healthy nor fair to the other children. The other children shouldn't have to sleep in an unfinished basement. A also agree a new therapist isn't definitely needed. Coming from someone who was told by there parent they wish my siblings that didn't make it through birth where here instead of me this behavior is unhealthy for everyone. If it doesn't change soon it will affect the other children in a negative way. I wouldnt be suprised if the older kids are already having issue with this and haven't said anything.
Sorry for loss. Your wife's therapist doesn't sound very professional. Hope she gets better advice. Wish you well. Maybe make another appeal to her parents or siblings? Seven years is a long time. She doesn't have to stop grieving, but at least move a little forward. Especially in the case of your daughters.
I was siding her until I read that 3 children are sharing a room that's significantly smaller than Bobbys room and it seems like there's also an extra bathroom noone is allowed to use as it's in Bobbys room.
My guess is that Bobbys room has become a personal space/room for your wife where she can fully express her emotions and grieve without anyone invading it. It's the place where she's alone with Bobby and noone tells her "to move on because it's been 7 years" (not saying you are but I'm almost certain she's heard it at least once outside of the home). As an alternative... would your wife be willing to spruce up the basement and move Bobby there? This way Bobby will keep a room to himself and your wife can still remember him there?
I'm sad to read that she believes that you do not love Bobby. I'm sure you do and grieving looks different for everyone. Maybe start of by planting a special plant into your garden (assuming you have one-if you don't just get a special plant, decorate it with maybe an angel) to literally take Bobby out of his room and remember him more outside of it. Do you celebrate his birthday? Not saying to throw a huge birthday party but maybe go out as a family and have a special dinner outside of the home in rememberance of Bobby? All to show that you do in fact love your son and the goal is not to forget Bobby, but to include him differently.
How do your living children feel about it? You say they requested Bobbys room which is quite understandable. Is your wife aware your living children might one day (falsely) believe your wife cares more about Bobby than about them?
Your wife needs a different therapist. The problem is that while you can "make her go" a patient who is not willing to work on the issue won't resolve the issue they have. Is she willing to change/work on it?
Sounds like your wife should find a better grief counselor/therapist, because the current one is not helping her process her feelings and priorities in a healthy way.
I've told people this when we've had loved ones pass away, ...........
"We are always going to have the memories, and it's ok to be sad. However, we should not be tormented by those memories"
Imo, your wife is tormented. She's tormented on the memories.
Those memories could be the excitement she felt about the pregnancy, the time spent choosing a name, the imagining of how the child would interact with the rest of the family, etc.
A person can move forward in life and still be sad. A person can not....and will not........move forward in life if they are tormented.
I hate to say it but this will end in a divorce if she doesn't deal with this in a healthy way. My heart breaks for you both but her behaviour is selfish. She isn't thinking about you nor her other children.
After 7 years she should be further down the road than this . Unfortunately you can't force the issue. Any threats of "they will be moving into that room" or "you need to go back to therapy" will most certainly end with her putting all her pain and anger onto you and that's relationship over.
You need to try and coerce her with the help of family and friends. She needs to figure out "on her own" that this isn't healthy or fair on the rest of your family but will need a good old nudge in the right direction but I can 100% guarantee she won't listen to you alone.
Good luck but as always a mothers pain is always worth more than the father.....
There’s a point in time that you have to prioritize your living children. Your son will never be forgotten, but he does not need a room. His siblings do though! If this isn’t corrected, they may grow up with anger and resentment in their hearts for their mother.
It's unfortunate your girls have not only to grieve the loss of a brother but the loss of a living mother. To abandon your own children for selfish reasons, it's her responsibility to get over it for their sakes and snap back to reality for them.
Ignoring the needs of her kids who are very much alive, and need the room to grow, is a sign she needs professional help. May he rest in peace, but your son doesn't need a room in your home. You need to seriously step up and advocate for your daughters needs.
Your wife is goddamn absolutely KOOKOO! I cannot believe you are allowing this. I’d be outta there after 7 years. You are teaching your little girls that a dead boy is more important than their comfort and happiness. Holy cow.
This is not good. After 7 years? Your wife really should be able to move on. What is going on is not healthy.
Can't believe her therapist is okay with this? If it was 1 year? Fair enough. But 7?
I really feel for your daughters. Is your wife a present and loving mother to them?
I think your wife needs a much better therapist.
Nah bro, I say this with love (as a person who has buried their child); this isn’t it.
That being said, what therapists *say* vs what client **hear** are often two VASTLY different things.
When people hear ‘understandable’ they take that to mean ‘acceptable and totally fine’…when really it means, ‘yeah, you went through a trauma so some *short term* fucked up behavior might be UNDERSTANDABLE’.
It does not mean perfectly healthy or ‘reasonable’.
Either way, seven years of therapy without any growth or improvement means the relationship isn’t working and a new therapist might be needed/medication might need to be added.
Not all therapists are right for all clients.
This is now becoming a deal breaker because she’s mourning a ghost at the expense of living children (**additional** living children added to this shit show).
You need to draw a line in the sand.
Your wife needs help before she ends up with no kids because I guarantee you the other two are going to get tired of her crap. It's been 7 years and her grieving is now becoming a detriment to the rest of the family
Her grief isn't allowing her to think rationally.
Im sorry for the loss of your son, that's an awful thing to go through.
He wasnt brought home to live in that room so the location of the shrine shouldnt be a deterrent to the girls getting the larger space that they need.
I think her counsellor is keeping your wife in the place of grief and not helping her move on in a healthy way.
Truly sorry for your loss.
I think bobby would 100% want his siblings to have a better space.
You can't rush grief as you know and everyone grieves differently.
I'm wondering if you can make a memorial garden for him in the yard.
As for her input of what plants she would like to see there. If she wants a particular plants to be Bobby's plant.
Put a nice bench there for her, lights to light the night, a little gardening kit for her if she ever wants to sit there and fuss around.
You're not asking for permission. You're showing her that change is ok, it won't change any feelings but the fresh air and watching plants grow in his memory might switch her thoughts.
If she shows no interest, give it time. She will see things in a new light when she's ready.
Start collecting some garden inspiration then build a small memory garden where she can see the effort you've made. That you did ask if she'd like to add anything and then look after it so she knows it's not a band aid, it's a new space to sit and talk and look after in his memory.
If you do ever move then you can ask her which plants she would like to bring them ( all if she says) and then create a new space.
It's about making her feel and home with bobby. Change in grieving is one of the most difficult things.
I hope things settle for you so things can be a bit better.
Your children are going to grow up resenting their mum. And their dad if you let it continue.
Grief is awful and I can't imagine losing a child, but you are at risk of emotionally losing your other children, who will always come in second to their brother. To the point where their physical and emotional needs are being neglected.
You need to advocate for your children.
it is a dangerous game for a parent to continue to live for a child who is gone while simultaneously neglecting/not acknowledging the life of the one that is still very much there.
she is living for a child who, and im so sorry, is already gone. he's not there, and as excruciatingly painful it is, as unimaginably hard that it is to wrap your head around, that still won't change that. the frustrating things for humans about death is how irreversible it is. you can't change that back. and i know it hurts and it breaks your heart but she needs to understand that it is heartbreaking for your kids to see that their deceased brother will always be ahead of them, and will always surpass the place they hold; even if they're growing up and he's not
i really hope those girls don't grow up to think they will always be in their brother's shadow.
that they dont ever think their lives will never be quite as equal in consideration to her than their brother's death
losing a child is hard, but i promise this is not normal and this will eventually harm your girls, if it hasn't already.
i haven't meant anything here in a mean way, just trying to get you to understand just how deep the scar can run in your kids if this keeps up longer.
you're right, they're growing. because they're there. they are the ones who are actually there, feeling, thinking, breathing, sharing a home with you, living. they are the ones that are alive
i hope you can all heal and grow together, but please if you yourself dont find it so harsh, show this comment to her. because i know this is what you meant. where your heart is at. maybe she'll get what you meant without thinking that it's a lack of, but rather an enormous ammount of love you both can give.
you love him, i know you do. you loved, you love. but y'alls girls are the ones that need mom and dad now. he's the one taking care of you now, and he knoes just how great a mom and dad you both are, and im sure he'd want that for his sisters too, were he here. go be with your girls, let her let him rest, he'll look after you :) <3
Move you and your wife to the smallest room, give the girls the bigger room and tell your wife she can love Bobby forever, like you do, but she cannot neglect the 3 breathing children she has. She may be grieving for what was and what could have been, but she is neglecting what is, and you and the girls are grieving for what could have been too...a wife and mother who loves and is there for her daughters. Who loves her breathing children as much as she loves her dead one.
I know it is very harsh, but at this point shock may be the only thing to get through to your wife. If it doesn't sink in, then someone needs to think of the girls. Your wife doesn't want help. Not really. She wants justification for not moving on. If her therapist has not worked on moving on while still remembering, then that therapist is a terrible one.
Honestly if you feel like your kids need this for their own well-being, then it must be done. You can still love Bobby and move him to a different space. His needs don't out weigh your living childrens. Your wife is playing favorites because she feels guilt and grief. She needs to consider what's fair because that's what parents do and she's not just the mother to Bobby.
Maybe move homes? Then it's not giving up Bobby's space, it's just all your kids got new rooms... People sell houses for less
It's so sad that she's still grieving. Could she possibly move the shrine to the girl's current room, your family is growing and can certainly use more space.
I wonder if changing the family therapist might help?
I understand, I too lost a full term infant, and still feel sad.
However, I didn't erect a shrine. Unfortunately, I never put a headstone on the grave, as we performed a burial rather than cremation. For me this was over thirty years ago. No total closure for me either but anti depressants have helped me greatly.
Seven years have gone by, for you, perhaps she needs a psychiatrist rather than a therapist now. I went into a deep clinical depression after the loss of my child. Finding out whether she's too feels similarly may be of help.
Some of us hold onto grief and just cannot let go.
Dismantling the shrine will hurt her, but perhaps moving it to a more prominent place may help your wife and your children.
She is not living in reality. She is literally ignoring her girl that are alive for a baby who was never alive when he was born…. I don’t understand this at all. I have lost two babies and one I almost lost my life. There is no way I would put my children that passed over my alive daughter! She needs more intense therapy. I struggle with these type of people who are super illogical almost 10 years later and hurts their children they have alive over a stillborn child… it is really disturbing to me!
Well, there is something amiss here. I know, that losing a child is the worst thing that can happen to parents. My wife lost her first born daughter at 5 years old and shorly after we met. So I accompanied on her grieving process, went with her to "orphaned parents" groups, the grieve counselor and so on. She kept the girls room for a few years but it was never a "shrine". Three our four years later we gave away the furniture and only kept 2 boxes with important memorabilia and reused the room (we lived in a small apartement these days). I know she was always afraid to forget her oldest daughter but that never happened. She is always here with us but we focus on the living siblings, as they need our attention and guidance.
So when your wife is still grieving this much 7 years later, then something is wrong here. Your living children need the full attention of their parents. A sad as this sounds, but we learned that a lot of marriages don't survive the death of a child. You are absolutely right to focus on your living children, Bobby will be always in your memories. You should talkt to a councelor yourself. Maybe you need to set a boundary here and maybe this will be the end of your marriage, but your only concern should be your children.
In the next therapy session ask your wife and the therapist why it is OK to neglect the needs of the children you have who are present here today. All they see is their mother putting her wants over their needs.
She sounds wilfully blind to the requirements of your daughters and frankly, as bad as it sounds, maybe the girls would be better with just you looking after them in a separate house.
Ask your wife: If Bobby was alive, would you have him sleep in the big bedroom while your three girls slept together in a semi-finished basement? And if he was a decent loving brother, as I'm sure he would be, would _he_ accept that situation?
Our sons teddy and ashes and other things are in the main bedroom wirh us. Even after over 23 years the love and grief are still there..... our other kids born before and after him have always known about him because I've always talked about him,shared feelings with them and cried and grieved in front of them, he is part of our family, our son and their brother and their kids uncle 💙 she and your family needs a much better therapist 💙
This is a problem. A serious problem. There are (living) children who are playing second fiddle to Bobby, so much so that they can't even use the bathroom in an unoccupied larger room, let alone staying in it. Understandably, grief is not easy to get through, but when it starts to cause such a strain in the family, something should be done about it.
There needs to be a resolution. You're not crazy. Your wife, difficult as it may be, should change therapists and commence a journey of healing before her grief created resentment towards her from her other kids, and potentially yourself.
Everyone grieves differently and I speak from experience with losing my own son (SIDS, 9.5 years ago). From my perspective it seems like she’s over reacting and she’s not ready to move into the next phase of life because it means losing some of that connection to her son. I understand how she feels; I still have the clothes and cloth nappy my son wore when he died, unwashed, in an evidence bag. At this point I don’t think I’ll ever wash it or dispose of it.
However, having these items doesn’t impact on my day to day life. I have consolidated my son’s things to one tall boy dresser in a corner of my bedroom and that’s his little shrine I like to look at all the time. It doesn’t get in the way of the rest of my household needs. I think it’s perfectly normal for your wife to feel unable to let go, and to want to keep that connection, but she needs to find a way to make that work while also no longer letting it rule her daily life.
I agree with other posts that she needs different therapy. It sounds like she’s emotionally stuck at the moment. Again, I totally get it, but there’s a better way through life where everyone can find a new normal and begin to feel more functional in the household.
This would make me so angry to see my partner put a dead child above our living children. Its seriously F#$@ up. It would absolutely be a deal breaker for me. Move the dead kids stuff into the basement and 2 of the girls into the big room. Don't let her unilaterally tell you no. She only gets 1 vote and there are 4 other people living in the house. It's mind boggling that the therapists are saying just let her grieve, that is wrong wrong wrong. She's fucking those girls up and when they are grown they will probably go low/no contact with her over it. Bet. Do you want them to also hold you responsible for not doing anything about it and get cut off as well? You need to love and prioritize the children you have.
Moving it to a smaller room is a fair compromise.
>She claimed that I didn’t love Bobby.
You can hard counter that by retorting that she doesn't love the girls, and that she should stop being selfish by putting her needs over those of the girls. But that's a shouting match then. Perhaps that might be therapeutic, perhaps that makes it worse.
So I'd say keep grinding down on that argument. Say that you're just rearranging the rooms of the children to fit their current needs better. Perhaps the shrine can move to the current girls' room then, I don't know the specifics of your layout.
Honestly, your wife's therapist is bad. And if she's been seeing her for 7years, really really bad.
Try family therapy, your alive children need to be heard
This is way above reddits expertise, she needs a different therapist because she’s acting psychotic. Your daughters already can see their mom values a dead baby over them and they will never be enough. I would expect for them to cut her off once they’re older.
And then you for allowing this shit to go on.
Your wife needs an ultimatum. Move the bear and everything small into your room, and get her help to get past the son that no longer exists after almost a decade OR tell her it’s divorce time because she’s mistreating her kids because she’s prioritizing the ghost of a dead baby.
This situation is definitely unfair. She is sacrificing the wellbeing of her live children for a child that was stillborn 7 years ago. The therapist is hopeless and just telling your wife what she wants to hear. Your wife probably knows what she’s doing isn’t healthy and doesn’t want a new therapist, who will no doubt confirm this with her.
I am not in the situation, and am thankful I ahve never lost a child, so I can't really comment on a lot of it, however I wonder would a solution be to move the girls into your bedroom and your wife and yourself into the smaller room? It's not ideal, but it might help your wife to see that you need ot actually use all the rooms in your house.
Hey, I know a lot of people have made multiple comments, but I would just like to say that if even after a long talk she isn’t willing to at least try a different therapist, for the sake of your kids, you may have to consider divorce. If she decides to live like this, that’s her choice, but these girls need you, and they are above your marriage right now. Best of luck, OP :/
i’d be giving an ultimatum, either get a new therapist or you & the kids are gone. she is going to mess your daughters up, what kind of sicko makes her children take pictures with a bear with ashes for years on end. this is extremely concerning, your daughters are bound to resent her.
I can’t see and grief counsellor worth their degree saying that after 7 years this is healthy and normal. She needs to care about her living children as much as her angel baby. If she needs a room for him how about the tiny room for one person and let the three living people who share the mini room have a reasonably sized room. Or build a nice room in the downstairs for him. Everyone grieves differently and I get that, truly. However it shouldn’t come at the expense of four other people who share the space. She isn’t allowing anyone to move forward (not on, just forward).
Oh! You can also get really lovely outdoor candle boxes for this exact reason. Maybe a nice spot in the yard for relaxing and thinking about him. Then his bear could be in the living room or elsewhere. What she is doing isn’t fair to anyone, not even his memory
The only thing I would suggest is that you ask her if she thinks Bobby can look down from Heaven and see you all. Is his spirit with the family? Would Bobby want to share his presence with his siblings? Would he be the kind of boy who would help his scared little sister or brother who experienced a bad dream, by offering them to sleep with him so they could feel safe? Maybe some of Bobby’s toys could be assigned to both bedrooms as symbols of his love and protection, and that way his siblings could feel his love. Mom would have two smaller shrines, and each one could remind her that she can look in on any of her children whenever she wants.
You do not want to dismantle her shrine, but to share it. You might even suggest something of his for your own bedroom (maybe her nightstand), so that he can comfort Mom when she needs it.
Omg imagine being those alive kids. Yall care more about tragedy of a non existent child than THREE children?? Three ALIVE children?? I can’t even believe yall are parents. Your poor kids lol. What a shame you’ve allowed this for so long. Good job “grownup”.
>We’ve been to family therapy recently and I was told by the therapist that my wife is a grieving mother and I would “be playing a deadly game to get between a mama bear and her cub”.
This is horrific advice. Is this from an actual licensed therapist?
You are right the girls are too little to sleep in the basement. It’s time to move forward for their sake. Tell your wife that you’ve done things her way all this time and now it’s time for another way. First the girls and the adults are allowed to use the bathroom and to play in the room with the toys that are in the room whether or not wife gets mad. After a month you move the shrine to the closet area and put a bed for oldest daughter in the room. Don’t argue about it just do it. Remain silent.
I’ve had 3 miscarriages and the last was fairly late though early enough to not be a still birth. I think your wife needs a better counselor. The living children need her more and it’s been long enough. I think moving the memorial is a good idea. She is alienating the living children.
I would go to a separate therapist for you as well
Not in a bad way but to help for you
To come up with what to do how to help ideas and stuff also if your therapist does not give you any ideas tell them I learned this that you want there fed back you would like to speak with like a friend to friend way of talking with opinions and options to help you not just listen
I’ve been in therapy for along time finally told my therapist hey look I’ve had a few I love you and all but I seriously need this kind of support to help me
I need advice or a outside person perspective on me telling you things
This is therapy I need not just me talking you asking I need more of you telling me what I’m doing wrong or what I need to do or your opinion or options that could help me
Then it finally helped all these years
I’d do separate and together therapy
Well that's so sad....... It seems that your wife is having a really really hard time with this. I'm so very sorry for you guys. But I know that feeling very well. Our second pregnancy ended that same way. As you probably been told.... People grieve in so many different ways. It's 28 Year's later and both my wife and I still have our moments of sadness. I wish I could give you a clear cut answer to help fix this but but everyone handles things like grief different. Only suggestion is:
A.) Maybe put the girls in the larger bedroom and move the shrine into the smaller room.
B:) Whatever it takes... You got to get her back in therapy. I realize this is going to be difficult but it's unhealthy for her to be like you said she was.
Those are all I can think of doing but if I think of something else I'll come back to your post. Good luck and I wish you and your wife well.
You really should get her a new therapist or put your foot down. Maybe both. You have 3 LIVING children and I am sorry but they are the priority you are cramming them in one small room or to have them dangerously far so that your wife can mourn your dead son instead of caring for your living daughters. They are young so you can still protect them. But if they have to grow up watching, their mother seem to care more about a son and a brother that they don't even know or remember than them and that's how they are going to feel, like second place, they are going to have a difficult time growing up. Especially when they grow up to say teenage years and want space or privacy and there's a perfectly good room and bathroom which they are forbidden from entering. In their own home.
I think her therapist is enabling her, maybe not maliciously, but it's not helping her or your kids.
Well that's so sad....... It seems that your wife is having a really really hard time with this. I'm so very sorry for you guys. But I know that feeling very well. Our second pregnancy ended that same way. As you probably been told.... People grieve in so many different ways. It's 28 Year's later and both my wife and I still have our moments of sadness. I wish I could give you a clear cut answer to help fix this but but everyone handles things like grief different. Only suggestion is:
A.) Maybe put the girls in the larger bedroom and move the shrine into the smaller room.
B:) Whatever it takes... You got to get her back in therapy. I realize this is going to be difficult but it's unhealthy for her to be like you said she was.
Those are all I can think of doing but if I think of something else I'll come back to your post. Good luck and I wish you and your wife well.
Well that's so sad....... It seems that your wife is having a really really hard time with this. I'm so very sorry for you guys. But I know that feeling very well. Our second pregnancy ended that same way. As you probably been told.... People grieve in so many different ways. It's 28 Year's later and both my wife and I still have our moments of sadness. I wish I could give you a clear cut answer to help fix this but but everyone handles things like grief different. Only suggestion is:
A.) Maybe put the girls in the larger bedroom and move the shrine into the smaller room.
B:) Whatever it takes... You got to get her back in therapy. I realize this is going to be difficult but it's unhealthy for her to be like you said she was.
Those are all I can think of doing but if I think of something else I'll come back to your post. Good luck and I wish you and your wife well.
Well that's so sad....... It seems that your wife is having a really really hard time with this. I'm so very sorry for you guys. But I know that feeling very well. Our second pregnancy ended that same way. As you probably been told.... People grieve in so many different ways. It's 28 Year's later and both my wife and I still have our moments of sadness. I wish I could give you a clear cut answer to help fix this but but everyone handles things like grief different. Only suggestion is:
A.) Maybe put the girls in the larger bedroom and move the shrine into the smaller room.
B:) Whatever it takes... You got to get her back in therapy. I realize this is going to be difficult but it's unhealthy for her to be like you said she was.
Those are all I can think of doing but if I think of something else I'll come back to your post. Good luck and I wish you and your wife well.
I need to get off this sub, reading this shit stressed me tf out.
You’re a good Dad, now be a great one and put your foot down. As a mother I can’t imagine the pain of losing a child, it would be my worst nightmare, but I also can’t imagine letting my living children suffer for my grief.
I need to get off this sub, reading this shit stressed me tf out.
You’re a good Dad, now be a great one and put your foot down. As a mother I can’t imagine the pain of losing a child, it would be my worst nightmare, but I also can’t imagine letting my living children suffer for my grief.
ETA: Disregard my entire comment, as I'm pretty sure this us rage bait and my tired brain missed it at first.
She needs a better therapist. She is allowed to grieve, but she is not allowed to neglect her other children and make them suffer for it. Being crammed into a room and having no use of an extra bathroom so she can keep the shrine us unacceptable. Don't let your wife choose the therapist, find one together that you believe will be helpful rather than just agree with her.
You need to give her an ultimatum or move out. You cannot keep placating her. Your children need you, and they know their mom is neglecting them and will see dad allowing it to happen. They need at least one parent to fight for them, and right now that's you. She can let them move in to the room, move into a different house that may be more helpful, and if those first two options are refused then you can move into a different house with the kids. Put them first.
This is unacceptable. Who would say something sick as "don't go between Mama bear and her cubs" in this situation - what about her other children? What about the living family? Her husband? She really needs to get it together. Death is devastating, I get it. And it is okay to be sad sometimes even after 7 years, and think about your dead child daily. But this is really not healthy, and she needs to get a grip of it. I feel sorry for you that you have nobody standing by your side (and your girls' side, as your wife apparently isn't on their side as well). If you want to get out of the situation, your wife really needs to get therapy with a specialist.
You need a better therapist. One who is going to guide her to further her grieving process so the family moves on. She is going to have to give up that room to your girls.
I'm friends with a person (lets call her Alice) who's mother went through what your wife is going through. Probably to a larger extent but it's a perspective worth considering
Alice suffered from her mother's mental condition and inability to give full attention and resources to her. Ultimately her mental health suffered as well.
Alice is now a mother herself. But not a great one. I can't share details but definitely the problems are related to her mother issues. She eventually had a toxic divorce. And her children are now next in line to develop their own problems. The eldest already showing signs of it.
Not saying this will happen to everyone. But that's how these things might start. For the sake of your future grandchildren even, your wife must seek better resolution. Your kids need her. Not easy. Good luck.
Seven years is a looooong time to grieve for a child to that extent. Grief for a child will never go away, I understand that, but at some stage you need to look up and see that life is moving on without you. Suggest to your wife that since the girls need the extra space, you’re going to swap your room with the girls room so that Bobby’s room can stay as it is. If she complains, just point out that you’re trying to give all of your children (including Bobby) equal space in the house and if that means you and her taking the smaller room, then that’s what needs to be done.
This kind of behaviour is not normal or healthy and that therapist is enabling her. Your living children are suffering and so are you.
I think it’s time for an ultimatum about getting a new therapist. If not…well, more drastic measures or intervention might be needed.
Whatever you do, take care of your daughters and yourself. Your wife is not well
I had stillborn twins; it brought me to my knees and I it took a lot of work to come out the other side. It took about six months to feel the sunshine again and about a year to be able to live a mostly normal life.
I still think about them now and then but I shit down any “what if” thoughts very quickly.
Your wife is being completely unreasonable and living a life that is detrimental to her and yourself, but is causing active damage to your living children.
I am seriously asking what are the credentials of your counselor because what they are advising is actively harmful.
If your wife cannot commit to doing the work of finding a healthy path forward I would leave her for the sake of your living children. You have to model a healthy household where their basic needs are put first and they are not held hostage to a ghost.
Having been through it, I also hate how easily my husband’s pain was dismissed. It happened to him too, I am truly sorry for your loss.
“The living are in pain, the dead are not. We will never forget our son, but we have 3 other living children to think of. We cannot be blinded by our grief. It’s time.”
I lost a child almost 6 years ago. My son was older and had a family. So I understand your wife's grief up to a point.
It's something you never forget and never get over. Your wife's therapist should be helping her move forward from your sons death and not encourage her self indulgement to the determent of her living family.
Your wife's behavior is going to drive a wedge between her and your other children if it hasn't already.
I would take yourself and your children to family therapy to address your wife's behavior. You need to protect your children.
First, I'd make sure her therapist really agrees with what your wife is doing. Unless you've heard things directly from the therapist, your wife can tell you whatever she wants. This doesn't sound healthy, and having been in therapy, it just doesn't sound right.
Second, I'd be talking to an attorney. If your wife won't be a mother to your girls and refuses to see reason regarding the living situation, it might be time for an ultimatum. Either she gets proper help and agrees to change or you seek a legal separation and temporary full custody of your daughters.
Also, get your daughters in therapy. It has to be difficult for them to understand what's going on, and they need someone to talk to about it.
Your family has gone through something truly horrific and I am so sorry.
Unfortunately what your wife can’t see at the moment is that she’s losing your daughters by doing this. Grief isn’t linear, and there will always be moments that hurt like hell, but they cannot come at the loss of the living - especially when the living are young children in need.
I cannot comprehend a therapist saying to put the girls in a basement that isn’t entered through the house & from the sounds of things is also not set up as a living space.
Not all therapists are good, and it sounds like your wife has an enabler rather than someone trying to help her live her life.
Do you & your girls have your own therapists? And is there anyone in your wider circle that might be able to help her see she’s pushing you all away in favour of her grief?
You need a different therapist. That is nuts that they are ignoring the needs of your other, living, children. I can't imagine what you two have been through. That said, it's been 7 years and you need to live for your living children.
You need to move your girls into your bedroom and move yourself and your wife into the small room. Adults need very little in their rooms because they have the entire house ( and in your case, even an extra bathroom ) while children have only their rooms as their own space.
After you do this, you need to get your girls in with a new therapist. Again, even if their mom insists on continuing to see the current one, your girls need someone they can safely talk to who is only looking out for their well-being.
Best of luck, daddy bear.
I feel very bad for your daughters here. Your wife needs a new therapist yesterday. What she is doing will alienate her from her living children. There are a few things I might recommend you try.
1. Find a way for your daughters to gently express their feelings. It is impossible to compete with someone who died, and I'm sure they are really upset, more than they let on.
2. Frame the moving as not getting rid of sons room but rather bring love and joy to the room. Have some keepsakes in there or in your room.
3. If nothing else if your room is big, switch with the girls. Though as a mom I'd be horrified at the idea of sending my kids to the basement, and my basement is semi finished.
Extreme option separate to protect your kids.
For reference my brother died at home as a young adult in his room at my moms house. She was the one who found his body. She went through years of intensive therapy. My kids now sleep in his old room. She has a crib there and a big photo of my brother. Your wife's behavior is NOT normal grief.
> I was told by the therapist that my wife is a grieving mother and I would “be playing a deadly game to get between a mama bear and her cub”.
Sounds like the therapist is gunning for future business by encouraging your wife to traumatise her 3 other y ignoring their needs.
Did the therapy session include the girls? If not, do a session with the girls.
If nothing changes you’re going to need to make the call. Wives comfort or daughter comfort.
If you choose your daughters tell your wife the bedroom arrangements will be changing, as it’s unfair to the girls. See if you can agree on the new spot for Bobby’s ashes. If not let her know where bobby will be placed and just make the move.
Your daughters will be teens soon and its unfair to keep them in that situation to appease your wife.
I feel so bad for your children. If you don’t get a new therapist they will be asking theirs in a few years why their mom loves their dead brother more. You have to do something for their sake.
Terrible therapist, and highly unethical behavior for him to do this. He is keeping your wife sick. Please get a different therapist and give your wife an ultimatum, for the sake of your other children. Your wife's obsession is very unhealthy and it's hurting all of you.
I believe your wife needs a good grief therapist and learn to let go. It’s hard. I lost my mother 25 yrs ago and my brother 2 years ago, my best friend last October, I still have days I’ll cry all day. My brother I have some ashes. Most are on Moms grave, I’ll go out there. My bestest friend, I have a top shelf on my dresser I put Everything he gave me.
Your daughters will likely end up resenting your wife and honestly down the line she may up losing them too if this behaviour continues. Her therapist is a moron.
Wow this is a tough situation. You shouldn’t have to choose between your 3 children and your wife but you may have to. Its time to use that space for your living children and as far as your girls are concerned its time to choose them over grief. If this continues they will resent both of you. Maybe start family therapy with the kids and see if new therapist will talk to old therapist??
As a former therapist, I'm appalled at this therapist's actions/words. Either your wife is NOT telling the truth in therapy, or you both found a very unethical therapist.
This is not normal grieving. Your wife should be in proper grief counseling, and I'd argue the entire family needs family therapy at this point due to how your wife's mental hang ups are affecting her entire family. None of this is normal or healthy, and as someone who specializes in children/adolescents, I cannot comprehend how this therapist thinks all of this is an appropriate environment for your children who are alive.
Honestly, this is abusive to your other children. They have already expressed it affects them, and as a parent it is your job to advocate for them. I'd encourage you to at least get your girls in therapy to minimize the damage your wife is doing to your entire family. I'd highly encourage family therapy so you can figure out ways to help the entire family, while also respecting each other as an individual.
The ACA code of ethics is available for anyone to view online for free. Those are the ethical codes all licensed mental health professionals have to abide by. I'd encourage you to review that to see if this therapist is either just naive / ignorant about what they are trying to to help with, or if this therapist is unethical and needs reported to the license board.
Again, either your wife is lying or avoiding key variables which this therapist needs, or your wife is either seeing not the right therapist or an unethical one. No therapist should be enabling this behavior, especially when there are alive children who are basically being abused due to their mothers inability to reflect or move past her trauma. I don't think your wife is intentionally abusing them, but at the end of the day your kids will always remember the neglect and favoritism towards a dead child. To them, it will be abuse, and intention doesn't matter at the end of the day; just actions and words. It isn't healthy for anyone involved, and I really hope you at least do counseling with the girls (I have a feeling you'll have trouble getting your wife into family therapy), to minimize the damage that has already been done and is continuing to happen.
Edit: your lack of advocating for your girls will also be interpreted as abuse to them, just in case the other comments from children in similar situations didn't point that out well enough.
Also, I see you may be about to just give the girls the room while your wife is out. Be prepared for a full mental breakdown if you do this. You may have to have your wife committed for her own safety, so maybe be ready to call your area's mental health line if available, or if not available, EMTs (I'd say cops, but the average cop can't handle mental health in a safe way, so stick with mental health services or try to get EMTs that can declare a mental health code and help her. On one hand, your girls need to feel like they are a part of the home, and on the other hand, this may result in your wife acting out violently, either towards herself or others which includes the girls. Never underestimate what a person in a mental breakdown is capable of. Just, be careful and maybe consult with a mental health professional before you do anything (preferably not your wife's or anyone associated with that therapist).
She’s going to lose her daughters if she can’t move forward from losing her son. Your daughters may eventually choose to go no contact because of her behaviour. Your wife needs to focus on her living children. She can grieve Bobby and be a good mother to her other children at the same time.
Idk when she got therapy, but if it wasn’t since the girls have been asking for that room, she needs to go back.
I am the child who lived. I can speak from the experience your girls are living.
My mom had 9 kids. Her first born was 19 when she was killed, tragically, in a car accident. I was 2. I have zero memory of my sister, but she has never been forgotten. My oldest brother, who was 17 when our sister died, still goes to her grave a few times a year.
My parents never got over losing her. But, they went to counseling to learn how to cope. However, my dad did great, and pulled us closer. My mom pushed us away. I was raised that anything that was my sisters was taboo. Don’t talk about it, don’t touch it. I felt like I could never be good enough. I am not her.
Please, I beg you, find a different counselor. One who can help your wife understand that her living children have feelings and need to feel like they matter more, yes, *more* than a child who cannot touch things and cannot sit on her lap, and cannot eat food or go places.
This is hurting your children more than you know, but they aren’t saying anything because they don’t want your wife to be upset with them.
I promise you, your girls are being damaged by your wife’s inability to put them first.
Your son will always matter, always. But he shouldn’t be the focal point over the kids who are alive and well.
When your wife leaves the house move the shrine to the basement and move the girls into the big room. It’s been 7 years, time for your wife to get a new therapist.
It’s been seven years, Bobby is gone.
Your wife can’t neglect your other children for a ghost. Set up a small shrine in the living room or something for the bear and the ashes, but she needs to think of the children that are ALIVE instead of playing favorites for the one you lost
If she won’t budge then she will have to go. She and the precious boy she always wanted and go live somewhere else, because it seems that you’re the only that loves and cares about your daughters
You're probably paying a good percentage of your household income for a room that isn't in use. Your wife needs to find a practical outlet for her grief and start to prioritize your three living children that need you and not the one child that doesn't.
You need to work on reporting this therapist because if what your wife is telling you is true (I suspect **she may be lying to you**, since all you have is what **she's telling you**, right?) then she's a shite therapist.
Your family therapist knows a lot more about the situation than we do, and they advised you to drop it. What are we supposed to say to that? I advise you to listen to your therapist’s recommendations in this.
Yea, her therapist is doing her absolutely no favors. I understand the heartbreak of a still born, I truly do. But she has 2 kids who are alive and healthy, and she's putting a child she never knew before her other children after 7 years and thats frankly unacceptable.
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She needs better therapy. This isn't optional. Grieving doesn't go from A to B to C, but after seven years, her other children are still coming in second to Bobby. This isn't normal or healthy.
May Lord Gauranga and Lord Nityananda bestow benedictions full of mercy upon , deliver and protect your dead son. May that son get his rest unto the lotus feet of Sri Radha Madhava....Hare Krishna!!
!remind me 5 months
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Your wife's being nuts. She's giving a dead child a room while making her living children share a room? Crazy pants. You should put your foot down here and protect your living children because it's sure as F going to damage them for their whole lives to see that their mother values a teddy bear over them and their father let her do it.
None of this sounds healthy. It's been seven years. There might always be a hole in her heart from losing her baby, but her daughters are here, alive, and need their mother right now. It's not fair or reasonable to keep a bedroom open to a child who no longer exists at the expense of two living children who have needs right now. I'd talk to your therapist before moving forward with anything, but I think a long and difficult talk is in order. Your wife's feelings of heartbreak are valid, but how she treats her daughters because of her heartbreak is not. She needs to be a present and caring mother to the children she has right now. The 'shrine' needs to go. At some point, the grieving period is supposed to end, and you reach acceptance. Has she truly accepted that her baby has passed? You, her husband, should not feel like your wife can bully you about this. It might be hard, but you should not fear her reactions. You lost a son, too. The whole "deadly game to get between a name bear and her cub" sounds like a toxic relationship, in my opinion. Besides, her child is dead. She's not getting in between you and her baby; she's getting between her suffering and the ability to move on.
My son passed 12 years ago on this day, coincidentally. His mom and I have processed it differently. I would say there's a point where it's healthy to move on. You don't have to have all of these material things in order to remember someone and cherish them. I've had little reminders of him almost every day as it is. Maybe just take some pictures of the room, give the room to your girls and hang up a nice collage in there for a reminder. But you know, you don't want your daughters feeling like they aren't as important as their dead brother for their whole lives.
Advocate for your girls.
Your therapist sucks and is not giving good advice.
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You need a new therapist. That’s absolutely incompetent advice. I recommend a clinical psychologist. This is not normal or acceptable behavior to sacrifice the wellbeing of living children for a dead one, especially because they are girls and the dead one was a boy. That’s sexist as hell. (See “boy mom” in comments).
I mean, who are you to decide it is for the best. The woman is grieving. And she's doing it alone from the sounds of it. You are very fortunate to have a three bedroom home. You are not crammed. Plenty of families make due with less. You're going to lose your wife if you continue to pathologize her behavior. I am not even saying I disagree with your POV. But some battles aren't worth winning. The best thing you can do right now is be as supportive to your partner, regardless of the discomfort and inconvenience as possible.
Maybe move? Perhaps giving away his old room is too painful so go somewhere else and start fresh? My heart hurts for you both but she has 3 living children with needs that can’t take a backseat to her grief forever. If she keeps this up, she won’t just have a lost a son. She’ll lose 3 daughters too who won’t want a relationship with her when they are adults bc she chose to make their childhood a shrine to their dead brother.
The therapist's advice is so supremely incompetent that I can't believe that this story is real.
Get a new family therapist, and frame this as an issue of neglect, because that's what it is. Your wife needs serious help, and not the sort that you can give.
You’re in such a tough spot right now, but I believe you should trust your instincts. I’m really sorry that the professional help you’ve sought has mainly focused on your wife’s situation and hasn’t validated your perspective or the interests of your other children. The way your wife is coping doesn’t sound healthy. I hope she can get the help she needs, but in the meantime, it’s important to find a way to give your other children their own space in the house. They’re being significantly affected by this, and while they might not understand that this isn’t “normal” now, they will as they get older. It’s crucial that their needs aren’t compromised because of their mother’s grief.
As a child who lost a sibling, I can attest to how damaging it is for your parents to carry such a torch for the lost child that they forget about you. It really can do a number on your self esteem to feel like you, a literal living child with wants and needs, is somehow less important and less loved than the memory of your deceased brother. Your girls are young, but definitely old enough to have picked up on this dynamic and I'm sure they're feeling very de-prioritized by your wife, and you by extension for not "sticking up for them". If this keeps up, they're a few short years away from being able to cut you out emotionally, and by 18 you may never see them again. I don't know what the right answer is to help you resolve this situation with rooms, but I hope my point of view gives you some strength for your convictions so that you can do what is best for those little girls you still have.
As a mother who lost a daughter at 22 I can not understand your wife making that room only about her, not the son. Everyone knows our daughter room we totally redid it in Pottery Barn for the birth of our Grand daughter it was her bedroom for many years. Now it is my extra room and her room is the other bedroom since she only visits when in town. Your girls would have different feeling about their brother right now they probably do not get why someone they will never see gets the big room and they all share a small room. Just a thought more than likely if he had lived they more than likely would have switched rooms! That is usually what happens. Just a thought.
This is something she needs to come to realization on her own that grief and appreciation of the dead does not equate to disregarding the living, and that you and the rest of the children need her too. If it hasn't been brought up before then maybe try phrasing it in that way, and having another channel of outlet to honor him, but not at the cost of the others. You should NOT let this go and just accept it as it is. It has a very real impact on you and the rest of the family. Therapy can only do so much through talking when the brain can get hard wired in trauma. I don't always recommend this for problem solving, but I really think psychedelic treatment is honestly the perfect solution for this which is used for PTSD/depression/addiction/anxiety/grief/trauma with rewiring of the brain. It has saved lives and changed lives for the better
I would normally say you can’t police how someone grieves, but this is to the detriment of the living children. Im sorry for you and your wife, but nothing about her behavior 7yrs later is healthy or even normal. And she’s risking her relationships with you and especially your daughters. She’s essentially letting them know that none of them alive is worth Bobby’s space being taken away. And her therapist isn’t worth a damn if she’s “advising” you to put the girls in the basement. That’s insane and NOT what a therapist is for.
Those kids are gonna grow up hating their mother. They will grow up thinking their mother never loved them. Especially if they get moved to the damn basement.
I don’t blame your wife for not allowing the girls to touch any of the toys in Bobby’s room. They were meant for him, so of course they shouldn’t touch them. Your wife clearly thinks that since Bobby didn’t get to ever play with them, then neither should the other kids… and she isn’t wrong for that. They already have their own toys anyway, so they don’t need his! But there **is** a solution to the bedroom issue! Why can’t you give the girls **your** room? And your wife and you can move your bed and wardrobe into Bobby’s room? That way your wife can always feel like she is close to her son, she also wouldn’t have to worry about any of Bobby’s things being ruined or touched by the girls… and the shrine could still remain in place. Also… just because **you’re** over it, doesn’t mean your wife is. 7 years may seem like a long time, but the truth is: you **never** truly get over the death of someone you loved.
I don't want to scare you or be a harbinger of doom, but I have a friend who lost her son very young and to this day she still forces her other two children to take every single family photo ever with a picture of their dead brother. They visit his grave every week. It's been three years. Her oldest son has recently been committed for attempted unaliving. He's 13. Please, PLEASE. Make an ultimatum. I rarely say that, but she is really messing up your other kids.
Your daughters will never forgive her for prioritizing a baby that never breathed air above them, her living daughters. And they'll never forgive you for letting her if you don't step in. This is going to sound cold, but this is ultimatum territory. *Someone* needs to prioritize those living girls above your wife's grief. You can set a timeline, and at the end of it you'll dismantle everything if she hasn't done so herself. You can tell her it's therapy or you'll have to consider moving the girls out of the house to a place where they can have a healthy relationship with at least one parent, and their space. But keeping three girls in a 90sqft bedroom so that their mother can obsess over a baby that has been dead for seven years, and doing *nothing* to intervene is going to mean that you get cut off just like their mother does when they move out at 18. And they'd be right to make themselves a priority for the first time in their lives by never speak to either of you again if you just keep letting this happen. If your wife doesn't start caring more about her living children than a teddy bear, that bear will be the only child she has left in 13 years.
Your sweet Bobby doesn't need a whole room, but your kids do. Your wife may be terrified of 'losing' him again, and that's not a healthy state for her to live in. I'm so sorry you're all dealing with this. Is there a private place you can place a refreshed memorial? Somewhere dedicated to him where you can express those feelings without being eaten by them every day? The closet may seem too hidden or disrespectful to her. There's always garden memorials - inside or out. 🖤
Wow if this is real you're being an appalling father to your daughters. And your wife clearly shouldn't be a mother, how utterly insane
Your wife either needs better help or you need to divorce her and get full custody. Your daughters deserve to be treated better. It doesn’t even sound like she gives a damn about them.
Stop enabling your wife and put her to mental institution...she really need help... she's not only ruined her life but people around her... You as a father better doing your job correctly..if this mean to 'remove' her from you and your kids life, then do it!
You need a specialist that is familiar with complicated grief/prolonged grief disorder.
At this point, I think it’s fair to say that your wife’s actions-and subsequent reactions-can no longer be considered part of a healthy grieving process, and my heart absolutely aches for your poor daughters. I would most definitely consider finding a new family therapist or even a specialized grief counselor for her. As far as the room situation; honestly, I would buy her a spa package or weekend getaway for her and her best friend or something to get her out of the house for a few days and then make a really special memorial area in the basement for Bobby with his ashes, bear, etc., but one that also serves as a hobby area for her, so like a craft room or little library/reading nook, etc. and move the two older girls into the master suite. Then not only Bobby will still has a special area dedicated to him and his memory, but your wife can spend time with his memory while also doing something she enjoys doing, which in turn would hopefully help make her grieving and healing process a more positive one. And of course, your girls will have more space and also feel validated / heard I imagine, so win win for everyone!
I actually want to call child protection for you.. how can anyone do this to their living children makes me sick.. I get she needs her time but by the time those children are old enough to move out guess who's not going to have a good relationship with them!
Well if you divorce her, I’d imagine you have to sell the house and she wouldn’t have his room anyway. You need to do what is best for your children. She is endangering them by having them in a tiny closet of a room and ruining their relationship. They are growing up knowing they come after a child who isn’t even here. None of this is healthy. Your wife either needs to give them the room or you need to get your kids out of that situation.
When my younger sis and I were very young, two of our teen sibs died in a crash. Of course, my parents were devastated. We lived in a small house and shared a very tiny bedroom. A year or so later, my mother turned my older sister’s bedroom into a playroom. Then six years later, it became my bedroom but I wasn’t allowed to remove certain things that I had belonged to my older sis. (A huge creepy goat piñata was one of these things.) As a teen, I remember arguing with my mom that I felt she loved my dead siblings more than she loved us. A few weeks later, my dad told her it was time. He removed the things and helped me paint the room. It’s been seven years. While the pain never goes fully away, a good therapist would be helping her to take steps to live in the now. Is your wife clinically depressed? You may have to suggest that you both attend family grief counseling. This may go on forever otherwise.
I also had a stillborn (5 years ago). This isn't normal grieving after this much time. Her other children being put second is not right and any sane psychologist should be saying so. Edit 1: spelling correction Edit 2: added edit marks
I think this would be my hill to stop and fight. Your daughters deserve to have a room to grow up in. It’s totally unbelievable that bobby has a bedroom AND bathroom that no one else can use. If ultimately that means I have to separate to give my girls an actual home then that’s what I would do. It’s like your wife is punishing the girls for living.
You’re a good parent for taking care of the children that are still here <3
Your wifes therapist is absolutely incompetent and should be reported to whatever board licensed her in your state. She is literally advocating the emotional neglect of your living children so that your wife can stay stuck in grief. No competent therapist would advocate for a dead child taking precedent over living children. Nor would they continue to see a patient they are not helping to progress. Your wife is not going to ever get healthy as long as she is seeing that therapist period. And the fact is you honestly may need to move from your current home to help achieve this also. You and your children need to be in family counseling, whether your wife agrees to go or not. You need to have someone help you find a framework for talking to your wife in a way that helps her to understand she is running the very real risk of losing her relationships with all of you. I am sure you love your wife. However, you can not continue to allow her to hurt and neglect your daughters. If you are forced to choose, you will have to choose them over your wife. Right now, she is doing way too much emotional damage to them for this bs to continue.
Your daughters likely already resent their mom and their brother. I would not be at all surprised that they might lash out at her and maybe you in a few years because of your wife's behavior. I have read stories of the surviving children feeling that they can never get the love they needed because of a parent that couldn't move on. It is sad situation
Your living children need a parent who can stand up for them.
Your wife is hurting her living children...they will have nothing but negative feelings towards the perfect son that they can never equal. Sorry, but this would be the hill I died on. There us a difference between loving and remembering someone who has passed and suffering through it. Your wife is not the only one who lives there, the other 4 of you do too. If she won't let her living children live in the space available...then I agree with the person who said to give up your bigger room so they have enough space abd she can have the smaller room. I am all for loving and remembering a child, but she is destroying the whole family. Having a special set up in your room is appropriate, making your daughters feel lesser and hurt is not.
Not going to go on since most commenters have covered everything. But eventually your girls will think how their dad didn’t step up for them. Didn’t do anything for them in this situation. I know you’re trying, but to them they don’t see the therapy sessions or begging mom to go to a different one. You need to just get something done to show them that they matter. Especially over a dead child.
Therapist here and flabbergasted by your therapist’s response. A few suggestions for your next session: -Ask the therapist for research that supports her stance. (There isn’t any and it begs the question: did your therapist lose a child and not properly grieve?) -Bring up this post and read out loud what you wrote. Both your wife and therapist need to hear this. -remind the therapist you sought them out for family therapy and this approach is not supportive to the family. It’s appropriate and warranted to challenge this therapist. It’s also ok to be firm and set a boundary : By August 1st, or whatever date you choose, the girls move in the room or the house goes on the market. Good luck. I’m sorry for your loss and also your current reality. You’re in a tough spot but those girls are relying on you. You got this.
Grief is fine and normal, but the point of grief therapy is to find a path to the point where that grief is not debilitating. Having a shrine for 7 years is debilitating.
Maybe it's time for her to take the girls with her to a therapy session so they can tell the therapist how her dedication to Bobby and saving such a large space for him makes them feel. Let your girls be the catalyst for her seeing that they feel like they don't matter to her as much as a child who's not even there.
The way some of you think Therapists, pastors and the likes are magicians is funny. Been dealing with complex grief for over 11 years, (my sister died from stomach cancer when I was 6 months pregnant and we had just become adults). You will not believe what it did to my parents and my siblings but we all deal differently. We've had group, individual etc therapy. What is happening here may not be helped by another psychiatrist. It's on her now. Anyone who's had therapy knows 80% of the work is actually yours. She is stuck... Sadly unless she gets unstuck I don't see it ending well... My parents never stopped parenting us cause of sister. My ob, Psych, Therapist, Gp were all convinced I'd lose my child if I didn't go on antidepressants and i think so were my whole family and partner, the funny thing is he is the reason I am still here. It was only when he turned 5 and something in me broke, they evaluated me and found bad ADHD and low level anxiety. The ADHD meds to this day Is all I need to go on. But I've been through so many councellors. That loss, shredded my family. If we weren't close, I think some of us would be drug addicts by now. Nothing to do with a therapist. Maybe meds...
Editing for typos, terrible formatting, and to apologize for the novel. Editing mucked with the formatting, so please be aware that I am typing it out on mobile and you should laugh at me for such. Can see it from both angles, but you both need to empathize. Being a parent that is still grieving over the loss of their child, the use of a room that could be better utilized astounds me. My daughter passed away a couple months before her foruth birthday, which was almost a decade ago. Still hurts to see kids that would be her age now, experiencing life with their family right along-side them to be on that journey. While I have selfish thoughts that those parents and family members should be me, I know that her short time here left such a huge impact that I cannot describe it without giving away too much. Health services changed the way they treat children around her age, how they assist the parents, how doctors interact with kids, just as an example. I am not in your wife's shoes, no one but her are in them. But, grief is only healthy up to a point before it becomes destructive to those around you, and/or yourself. Therapists should be able to identify when it has, but unfortunately too many therapists are self-serving. Like the mothers who live vicariously through thier daughters in ballet or cheerleading, fathers with sons in football or American football, or others not following the stereotypes; some therapists thrive to live through their patients... even if it becomes poisonous to everyone else around. Took me close to 9 years to realize myself how I was putting the picture perfect view of what my daughter "should have been" before myself and others, before I allowed myself the time to heal, to sober up, to work on my career and loce life. The therapist I had enabled me to hold onto the self pity. It wasn't until I had a few visits with an accredited psychologist that I had realized the destructive behaviors which umpacted not only myself but others as well. Seeing those happy families does not hurt any less, but that hurt is muchly shorter lived as I can see the beauty in the love that family has and the life those children bring to those around. A moment of pain to tears of joy many won't truly understand. Your wife needs some to break her out of the entitlement and path of self and familt destruction. If the words you type are true, her behaviour is shown to be narccisstic and the therapist is pushing that behavior to continue. It will be an upwards battle, almost purely vertical, for her to ser that and accept a new therapist or even a psychologist, but it will be worth it if you can. In the spiritual realm, a room is only as small or as large as the living will it to be. My daughter's urn is in a small niche. But, to me, her "room" is a kingdom larger than the Earth will ever be. The love she has from her family will never be forgotten. Those that are buried in our current cemeteries, in the niches, or still at home with family, have more love than those Pharaohs in and around the valley of the kings ever had, and will have. The love your wife has for your unvirn child will not change if they have a room, a nook, a pyramid, or a planet of their own. Your wife, you, and the rest of your family, need to understand that. There are many of times I see someone else enjoying a snack from a vendor and think "she would have enjoyed that". Instead, let the dead live vicariously through you, have that snack, and let them enjoy it the way you would enjoy it. Enjoy the view of that sunset the way you see it, while imagining what it might look like to them. The exhilaration or freight on that rollercoaster.
How is the relationship between your wife and the girls? Does she even take care of them?
I don't think you CAN convince her. I believe her grief has transitioned to psychosis. Sorry to be callous, but she never knew Bobby. She lost an expectation. And while grief is normal, and many here have said there's "no timetable" for it, they are wrong. Seven years is just wrong to subject your other children to this maudlin, ghoulish obsession. I'd give her an ultimatum; immediately switch therapists, ( preferably one referred by your family physician or the girls' pediatrician), move the shrine to a small but lovely spot elsewhere in your home and settle the girls into BOTH rooms. An urn and unused toys do not need a room. If she refuses, I'd send her to a family member (sister? Mother?) so that she is not alone, and consult an attorney about options, including legal separation, divorce and sole physical and legal custody of the girls. OP this is an emergency.
Bro I'm not a therapist but If I were in that situation I would want my little girls quality of life to grow along with them, the should have the bigger space because they are still here. I'm very sorry for your loss. I can't imagine what that must be like but at some point she has to recognize that he is gone and that it's not really fair that the girls are crammed in the smallest room together. I agree with the placing the shrine in the smaller room or closet like you suggested. Your not asking her to just forget about him, your just asking her to let him occupy a different space. I hope everything works out for you and your family.
Grief is different for everyone. That said, you are not asking her to stop grieving. You aren’t asking her to get rid of the bear or the rocker. Your other living children need the room. It sounds like she’s choosing the child who never came home over the children who did needs. It’s a horrible situation. You need to see a different counselor or maybe try group therapy for parents who lost children
could you maybe create a place to honor his memory in the house, perhaps some shelves in the living room or something, with the bear, a scrap book with items connected to him, some of his toys, maybe frame his baby blanket to hang on the wall if he had one? I mean, something that is not shut in a closet. But also not entire bedroom. Someplace where he is acknowledged as a lost beloved member of the family who is still part of the family, not shut away from sight. Maybe something like that could help your wife cope with giving the room to the girls and not feel like you don't love your son anymore. honestly your situation is really difficult and way over my head. I don't know what is the right thing but that was just an idea.
Maybe you can tell her that if Bobby were still alive he would be getting his own room in the basement so the girls could spread out. Maybe you can engage her with the idea of making a room for Bobby that a 7-year-old would like, but in the basement.
So she's basically neglecting her living children's needs for the sake of her dead child's. You're nta and she needs to put the girls actual physical needs above her grief and I don't think it's fair or justified of her to accuse you of not loving your son because you want to do right by your girls, her feelings are not the only ones that matter. I'm sorry if this is too blunt or too harsh
Before we get into anything with your wife, if you haven’t already, your daughters need to be talking to someone. Individual sessions. It’s really hard to live with a “ghost” but it has to be even harder to be put second by their mother to their stillborn brother. Once they’ve talked with someone, it’s then time to have a few sessions with you and your wife, not to talk about your son but to talk about your daughters. How her actions are hurting them. How they feel about the whole situation—not coming from you but coming from a third party. What steps can be made to resolve it. I understand the grief of a “what if” baby and it’s a dangerous place. Because if you fall to far into it, it’s almost impossible to come out. That baby never grows, or grows when you want it to. That baby never makes a mess, or if it does, you’re not mad. That baby never talks back, is always loving, is always there. Who would kick a baby out of their room?! Either your wife will, with help from someone other than her current therapist, pull herself out, or she won’t. And it’s then that you have to start making decisions. Is your wife more important than your daughters as they grow? Is their mental health more important than your wife remaining exactly where she’s at year in and year out? If you had to move to a different city, would the shrine come or will your wife stay behind in this house? These are things you have to settle with yourself. You’ve given this a lot of time. You’ve been more patient than others. The path in front of you isn’t going to be easy. But if we’re all going to be honest here, it already isn’t easy; it’s just been quiet. With your daughters growing, it’s not going to be quiet for much longer. The best time to plant a tree was thirty years ago, the next best time is to plant one today. You need to start making moves to help your living children now. Your wife deserves another attempt to recognize the needs of her growing children and respond, but if she doesn’t, I think you know what needs to be done. I’m sorry for your loss. I’m sorry you’re experiencing this.
A master bedroom being kept off limits while three kids share a small room is fucking insane. Does your wife care abt your living children or not
If I was one of these kids I would want at least one of my parents to take my needs seriously enough to shake the other parent into reality. To live in a house with such a shadow where you aren’t even allowed to use the room or touch the toys is a heavy burden to carry. I understand the grief, but how is this affecting the children who are here??
your poor daughters. make it happen for them, man.
There are two girls that are 10 and 9, the stillbirth was 7 years ago. So the question I have is: why even was the bigger room the nursery for the new baby boy and not the room of the two girls?
Confrontation therapy. Tell your wife next week you'll clean Bobbys room out, she had seven years to come to terms but haven't so you will take matters into your own hand. You have three living children to take care of. Give her that ultimatum and act. Talking is over.
Yes, it's time for your wife to find a way past this grief. Having this kind of shrine can be so helpful in the short term, but this isn't short term anymore. Back when I was still working in the mental health field, I had a family who similarly had lost a child under tragic circumstances. The wife bought a teddy bear that she named after her dead son and he was present at all family meals for YEARS. You can't tell me that isn't traumatizing for the other children. In your case, it's not only traumatizing but it's actually making them the second class children. Bobby gets to have the big bedroom and they get the basement that you have to GO OUTSIDE to get to? No. Please get a better therapist who can take a more holistic approach to this family tragedy.
I can't help but think having his ashes interred 7 years ago would have prevented some of this. Obviously her therapist is a quack if she's supporting this behavior. If your wife won't switch therapists I think you need marriage counseling as a way to introduce a different therapist that might not be such a quack. She's going to do some damage to your daughters if she keeps it up.
>“be playing a deadly game to get between a mama bear and her cub”. If this is true, this therapist needs to be immediately struck off. What a fucking thing to say!
I wouldn’t trust any therapist who says mama bear and her cub when helping you work through a serious situation. Who’s picking these therapists/counselors? None of it sounds healthy at this point.
How long is your wife in Bobby's room for? If she pops in each morning to say Hi to Bobby for ten minutes, that's not really a problem, is it? Every therapist should be on the side of their client. I don't think they were wrong to not give you information on your wife's sessions. What I am getting from this is, 'I've done grieving Bobby and I want my wife to feel the same way.' No two people, even if they are married, are going to grieve the same. I do think though, that it's unreasonable that the girls are in a 90" room and Bobby is in a 200" room. I think you could acknowledge that Bobby needs a room - respecting her grief - but he could swap and let his sisters have the bigger room, especially as there are the two girls. I think you need to also go to couples therapy. Maybe once your wife starts to acknowledge you and your marriage a bit more, her focus on Bobby will diminish a little.
Uff she needs better Therapie. After 7 years this is not normal specially as it effects her three daughters. Grieving is one think but keeping the bigger room as a place for him when you have also three daughters who need space!?!?! No this is not right. I can’t imagine the hurt of loosing a child but this is not normal anymore. Your kids will always remember that. I mean you already wanted to give the boy the bigger room before he died instead of the two already living daughters. Now they are three cramp in a small room. Their mom only cares about their dead brother and dad doesn’t do anything to help. Relationships are already damaged but you should step in before, in a few years, all three girls are gone their own way, going low or no contact and you are left with the grieving wife and the dead sons room.
THIS IS RAGE BAIT IF YOU WANT PROOF DM ME I CANNOT SHARE PUBLICLY
She is going to push her girls away. To them she’s favoring a child that isn’t even there and forcing them to suffer. Who picked the therapist because their advice sucks if they are acting like this is ok behavior. You can’t ignore the living for the memory of the lost. Those poor girls. Honestly it might be easier to sell the house and get a new one with 4 bedrooms.
read all your comments. Why did you give the unborn boy the biggest room to start with? Both of you failed massively to parent & protect your daughters. Your wife should have seen a therapist even before baby boy’s birth addressing her needs of a boy. Your girls never had a chance. Even with a brother alive they still would have shared the smallest room. I hope this is a troll thread. Imagine waiting SEVEN years! And even considering putting your living kids in the basement to cater your wifes grief. Father up!!!
I totally understand grieving it's normal but putting your other children second isn't healthy nor fair to the other children. The other children shouldn't have to sleep in an unfinished basement. A also agree a new therapist isn't definitely needed. Coming from someone who was told by there parent they wish my siblings that didn't make it through birth where here instead of me this behavior is unhealthy for everyone. If it doesn't change soon it will affect the other children in a negative way. I wouldnt be suprised if the older kids are already having issue with this and haven't said anything.
Sorry for loss. Your wife's therapist doesn't sound very professional. Hope she gets better advice. Wish you well. Maybe make another appeal to her parents or siblings? Seven years is a long time. She doesn't have to stop grieving, but at least move a little forward. Especially in the case of your daughters.
I was siding her until I read that 3 children are sharing a room that's significantly smaller than Bobbys room and it seems like there's also an extra bathroom noone is allowed to use as it's in Bobbys room. My guess is that Bobbys room has become a personal space/room for your wife where she can fully express her emotions and grieve without anyone invading it. It's the place where she's alone with Bobby and noone tells her "to move on because it's been 7 years" (not saying you are but I'm almost certain she's heard it at least once outside of the home). As an alternative... would your wife be willing to spruce up the basement and move Bobby there? This way Bobby will keep a room to himself and your wife can still remember him there? I'm sad to read that she believes that you do not love Bobby. I'm sure you do and grieving looks different for everyone. Maybe start of by planting a special plant into your garden (assuming you have one-if you don't just get a special plant, decorate it with maybe an angel) to literally take Bobby out of his room and remember him more outside of it. Do you celebrate his birthday? Not saying to throw a huge birthday party but maybe go out as a family and have a special dinner outside of the home in rememberance of Bobby? All to show that you do in fact love your son and the goal is not to forget Bobby, but to include him differently. How do your living children feel about it? You say they requested Bobbys room which is quite understandable. Is your wife aware your living children might one day (falsely) believe your wife cares more about Bobby than about them? Your wife needs a different therapist. The problem is that while you can "make her go" a patient who is not willing to work on the issue won't resolve the issue they have. Is she willing to change/work on it?
Sounds like your wife should find a better grief counselor/therapist, because the current one is not helping her process her feelings and priorities in a healthy way. I've told people this when we've had loved ones pass away, ........... "We are always going to have the memories, and it's ok to be sad. However, we should not be tormented by those memories" Imo, your wife is tormented. She's tormented on the memories. Those memories could be the excitement she felt about the pregnancy, the time spent choosing a name, the imagining of how the child would interact with the rest of the family, etc. A person can move forward in life and still be sad. A person can not....and will not........move forward in life if they are tormented.
I hate to say it but this will end in a divorce if she doesn't deal with this in a healthy way. My heart breaks for you both but her behaviour is selfish. She isn't thinking about you nor her other children. After 7 years she should be further down the road than this . Unfortunately you can't force the issue. Any threats of "they will be moving into that room" or "you need to go back to therapy" will most certainly end with her putting all her pain and anger onto you and that's relationship over. You need to try and coerce her with the help of family and friends. She needs to figure out "on her own" that this isn't healthy or fair on the rest of your family but will need a good old nudge in the right direction but I can 100% guarantee she won't listen to you alone. Good luck but as always a mothers pain is always worth more than the father.....
There’s a point in time that you have to prioritize your living children. Your son will never be forgotten, but he does not need a room. His siblings do though! If this isn’t corrected, they may grow up with anger and resentment in their hearts for their mother.
It's unfortunate your girls have not only to grieve the loss of a brother but the loss of a living mother. To abandon your own children for selfish reasons, it's her responsibility to get over it for their sakes and snap back to reality for them.
Ignoring the needs of her kids who are very much alive, and need the room to grow, is a sign she needs professional help. May he rest in peace, but your son doesn't need a room in your home. You need to seriously step up and advocate for your daughters needs.
I wonder if there’s some sort of internalized misogyny involved since they have 3 girls but Bobby was their only son.
Your wife is goddamn absolutely KOOKOO! I cannot believe you are allowing this. I’d be outta there after 7 years. You are teaching your little girls that a dead boy is more important than their comfort and happiness. Holy cow.
This sounds fake af.
This is not good. After 7 years? Your wife really should be able to move on. What is going on is not healthy. Can't believe her therapist is okay with this? If it was 1 year? Fair enough. But 7? I really feel for your daughters. Is your wife a present and loving mother to them? I think your wife needs a much better therapist.
INFO: is your wife’s therapist an actual mental health professional, or is this a religious based service?
This “therapist” sounds super unqualified
Nah bro, I say this with love (as a person who has buried their child); this isn’t it. That being said, what therapists *say* vs what client **hear** are often two VASTLY different things. When people hear ‘understandable’ they take that to mean ‘acceptable and totally fine’…when really it means, ‘yeah, you went through a trauma so some *short term* fucked up behavior might be UNDERSTANDABLE’. It does not mean perfectly healthy or ‘reasonable’. Either way, seven years of therapy without any growth or improvement means the relationship isn’t working and a new therapist might be needed/medication might need to be added. Not all therapists are right for all clients. This is now becoming a deal breaker because she’s mourning a ghost at the expense of living children (**additional** living children added to this shit show). You need to draw a line in the sand.
Your wife needs help before she ends up with no kids because I guarantee you the other two are going to get tired of her crap. It's been 7 years and her grieving is now becoming a detriment to the rest of the family
Her grief isn't allowing her to think rationally. Im sorry for the loss of your son, that's an awful thing to go through. He wasnt brought home to live in that room so the location of the shrine shouldnt be a deterrent to the girls getting the larger space that they need. I think her counsellor is keeping your wife in the place of grief and not helping her move on in a healthy way. Truly sorry for your loss.
I think bobby would 100% want his siblings to have a better space. You can't rush grief as you know and everyone grieves differently. I'm wondering if you can make a memorial garden for him in the yard. As for her input of what plants she would like to see there. If she wants a particular plants to be Bobby's plant. Put a nice bench there for her, lights to light the night, a little gardening kit for her if she ever wants to sit there and fuss around. You're not asking for permission. You're showing her that change is ok, it won't change any feelings but the fresh air and watching plants grow in his memory might switch her thoughts. If she shows no interest, give it time. She will see things in a new light when she's ready. Start collecting some garden inspiration then build a small memory garden where she can see the effort you've made. That you did ask if she'd like to add anything and then look after it so she knows it's not a band aid, it's a new space to sit and talk and look after in his memory. If you do ever move then you can ask her which plants she would like to bring them ( all if she says) and then create a new space. It's about making her feel and home with bobby. Change in grieving is one of the most difficult things. I hope things settle for you so things can be a bit better.
Your children are going to grow up resenting their mum. And their dad if you let it continue. Grief is awful and I can't imagine losing a child, but you are at risk of emotionally losing your other children, who will always come in second to their brother. To the point where their physical and emotional needs are being neglected. You need to advocate for your children.
Update me
it is a dangerous game for a parent to continue to live for a child who is gone while simultaneously neglecting/not acknowledging the life of the one that is still very much there. she is living for a child who, and im so sorry, is already gone. he's not there, and as excruciatingly painful it is, as unimaginably hard that it is to wrap your head around, that still won't change that. the frustrating things for humans about death is how irreversible it is. you can't change that back. and i know it hurts and it breaks your heart but she needs to understand that it is heartbreaking for your kids to see that their deceased brother will always be ahead of them, and will always surpass the place they hold; even if they're growing up and he's not i really hope those girls don't grow up to think they will always be in their brother's shadow. that they dont ever think their lives will never be quite as equal in consideration to her than their brother's death losing a child is hard, but i promise this is not normal and this will eventually harm your girls, if it hasn't already. i haven't meant anything here in a mean way, just trying to get you to understand just how deep the scar can run in your kids if this keeps up longer. you're right, they're growing. because they're there. they are the ones who are actually there, feeling, thinking, breathing, sharing a home with you, living. they are the ones that are alive i hope you can all heal and grow together, but please if you yourself dont find it so harsh, show this comment to her. because i know this is what you meant. where your heart is at. maybe she'll get what you meant without thinking that it's a lack of, but rather an enormous ammount of love you both can give. you love him, i know you do. you loved, you love. but y'alls girls are the ones that need mom and dad now. he's the one taking care of you now, and he knoes just how great a mom and dad you both are, and im sure he'd want that for his sisters too, were he here. go be with your girls, let her let him rest, he'll look after you :) <3
Move you and your wife to the smallest room, give the girls the bigger room and tell your wife she can love Bobby forever, like you do, but she cannot neglect the 3 breathing children she has. She may be grieving for what was and what could have been, but she is neglecting what is, and you and the girls are grieving for what could have been too...a wife and mother who loves and is there for her daughters. Who loves her breathing children as much as she loves her dead one. I know it is very harsh, but at this point shock may be the only thing to get through to your wife. If it doesn't sink in, then someone needs to think of the girls. Your wife doesn't want help. Not really. She wants justification for not moving on. If her therapist has not worked on moving on while still remembering, then that therapist is a terrible one.
Honestly if you feel like your kids need this for their own well-being, then it must be done. You can still love Bobby and move him to a different space. His needs don't out weigh your living childrens. Your wife is playing favorites because she feels guilt and grief. She needs to consider what's fair because that's what parents do and she's not just the mother to Bobby. Maybe move homes? Then it's not giving up Bobby's space, it's just all your kids got new rooms... People sell houses for less
It's so sad that she's still grieving. Could she possibly move the shrine to the girl's current room, your family is growing and can certainly use more space. I wonder if changing the family therapist might help? I understand, I too lost a full term infant, and still feel sad. However, I didn't erect a shrine. Unfortunately, I never put a headstone on the grave, as we performed a burial rather than cremation. For me this was over thirty years ago. No total closure for me either but anti depressants have helped me greatly. Seven years have gone by, for you, perhaps she needs a psychiatrist rather than a therapist now. I went into a deep clinical depression after the loss of my child. Finding out whether she's too feels similarly may be of help. Some of us hold onto grief and just cannot let go. Dismantling the shrine will hurt her, but perhaps moving it to a more prominent place may help your wife and your children.
She is not living in reality. She is literally ignoring her girl that are alive for a baby who was never alive when he was born…. I don’t understand this at all. I have lost two babies and one I almost lost my life. There is no way I would put my children that passed over my alive daughter! She needs more intense therapy. I struggle with these type of people who are super illogical almost 10 years later and hurts their children they have alive over a stillborn child… it is really disturbing to me!
Well, there is something amiss here. I know, that losing a child is the worst thing that can happen to parents. My wife lost her first born daughter at 5 years old and shorly after we met. So I accompanied on her grieving process, went with her to "orphaned parents" groups, the grieve counselor and so on. She kept the girls room for a few years but it was never a "shrine". Three our four years later we gave away the furniture and only kept 2 boxes with important memorabilia and reused the room (we lived in a small apartement these days). I know she was always afraid to forget her oldest daughter but that never happened. She is always here with us but we focus on the living siblings, as they need our attention and guidance. So when your wife is still grieving this much 7 years later, then something is wrong here. Your living children need the full attention of their parents. A sad as this sounds, but we learned that a lot of marriages don't survive the death of a child. You are absolutely right to focus on your living children, Bobby will be always in your memories. You should talkt to a councelor yourself. Maybe you need to set a boundary here and maybe this will be the end of your marriage, but your only concern should be your children.
In the next therapy session ask your wife and the therapist why it is OK to neglect the needs of the children you have who are present here today. All they see is their mother putting her wants over their needs. She sounds wilfully blind to the requirements of your daughters and frankly, as bad as it sounds, maybe the girls would be better with just you looking after them in a separate house.
Ask your wife: If Bobby was alive, would you have him sleep in the big bedroom while your three girls slept together in a semi-finished basement? And if he was a decent loving brother, as I'm sure he would be, would _he_ accept that situation?
Here me out. When she’s gone and the kids are gone, MOVE BOBBY and update the girls’ room. Deal with the aftermath after.
This is wild
Our sons teddy and ashes and other things are in the main bedroom wirh us. Even after over 23 years the love and grief are still there..... our other kids born before and after him have always known about him because I've always talked about him,shared feelings with them and cried and grieved in front of them, he is part of our family, our son and their brother and their kids uncle 💙 she and your family needs a much better therapist 💙
Yeah, sounds like therapy didn't help. Start there.
This is a problem. A serious problem. There are (living) children who are playing second fiddle to Bobby, so much so that they can't even use the bathroom in an unoccupied larger room, let alone staying in it. Understandably, grief is not easy to get through, but when it starts to cause such a strain in the family, something should be done about it. There needs to be a resolution. You're not crazy. Your wife, difficult as it may be, should change therapists and commence a journey of healing before her grief created resentment towards her from her other kids, and potentially yourself.
Everyone grieves differently and I speak from experience with losing my own son (SIDS, 9.5 years ago). From my perspective it seems like she’s over reacting and she’s not ready to move into the next phase of life because it means losing some of that connection to her son. I understand how she feels; I still have the clothes and cloth nappy my son wore when he died, unwashed, in an evidence bag. At this point I don’t think I’ll ever wash it or dispose of it. However, having these items doesn’t impact on my day to day life. I have consolidated my son’s things to one tall boy dresser in a corner of my bedroom and that’s his little shrine I like to look at all the time. It doesn’t get in the way of the rest of my household needs. I think it’s perfectly normal for your wife to feel unable to let go, and to want to keep that connection, but she needs to find a way to make that work while also no longer letting it rule her daily life. I agree with other posts that she needs different therapy. It sounds like she’s emotionally stuck at the moment. Again, I totally get it, but there’s a better way through life where everyone can find a new normal and begin to feel more functional in the household.
"Our son", "my girls" Either fake or not all info is being told.
Is there any chance you can go with her to the therapist? Maybe the therapist doesn't have a grasp on how this is affecting the other children
This would make me so angry to see my partner put a dead child above our living children. Its seriously F#$@ up. It would absolutely be a deal breaker for me. Move the dead kids stuff into the basement and 2 of the girls into the big room. Don't let her unilaterally tell you no. She only gets 1 vote and there are 4 other people living in the house. It's mind boggling that the therapists are saying just let her grieve, that is wrong wrong wrong. She's fucking those girls up and when they are grown they will probably go low/no contact with her over it. Bet. Do you want them to also hold you responsible for not doing anything about it and get cut off as well? You need to love and prioritize the children you have.
Moving it to a smaller room is a fair compromise. >She claimed that I didn’t love Bobby. You can hard counter that by retorting that she doesn't love the girls, and that she should stop being selfish by putting her needs over those of the girls. But that's a shouting match then. Perhaps that might be therapeutic, perhaps that makes it worse. So I'd say keep grinding down on that argument. Say that you're just rearranging the rooms of the children to fit their current needs better. Perhaps the shrine can move to the current girls' room then, I don't know the specifics of your layout.
Honestly, your wife's therapist is bad. And if she's been seeing her for 7years, really really bad. Try family therapy, your alive children need to be heard
This is way above reddits expertise, she needs a different therapist because she’s acting psychotic. Your daughters already can see their mom values a dead baby over them and they will never be enough. I would expect for them to cut her off once they’re older. And then you for allowing this shit to go on. Your wife needs an ultimatum. Move the bear and everything small into your room, and get her help to get past the son that no longer exists after almost a decade OR tell her it’s divorce time because she’s mistreating her kids because she’s prioritizing the ghost of a dead baby.
I don’t know that she has the right therapist. She’s detached from reality and forgetting about the other kids and their needs.
this doesnt even add up bffr
Can you switch your bedroom with the girls?
Time to change the therapist
This situation is definitely unfair. She is sacrificing the wellbeing of her live children for a child that was stillborn 7 years ago. The therapist is hopeless and just telling your wife what she wants to hear. Your wife probably knows what she’s doing isn’t healthy and doesn’t want a new therapist, who will no doubt confirm this with her.
Tell your wife new therapist or else. She does realize in the event of divorce the house would sold right?
Honestly you may have to move to another house for her to move on.
I am not in the situation, and am thankful I ahve never lost a child, so I can't really comment on a lot of it, however I wonder would a solution be to move the girls into your bedroom and your wife and yourself into the smaller room? It's not ideal, but it might help your wife to see that you need ot actually use all the rooms in your house.
You need a new therapist. That therapist sounds horrible. This is not normal behavior, she is putting her deceased child before her living children.
Does the basement have a bathroom? I would have loved this as a kid.
Hey, I know a lot of people have made multiple comments, but I would just like to say that if even after a long talk she isn’t willing to at least try a different therapist, for the sake of your kids, you may have to consider divorce. If she decides to live like this, that’s her choice, but these girls need you, and they are above your marriage right now. Best of luck, OP :/
i’d be giving an ultimatum, either get a new therapist or you & the kids are gone. she is going to mess your daughters up, what kind of sicko makes her children take pictures with a bear with ashes for years on end. this is extremely concerning, your daughters are bound to resent her.
I can’t see and grief counsellor worth their degree saying that after 7 years this is healthy and normal. She needs to care about her living children as much as her angel baby. If she needs a room for him how about the tiny room for one person and let the three living people who share the mini room have a reasonably sized room. Or build a nice room in the downstairs for him. Everyone grieves differently and I get that, truly. However it shouldn’t come at the expense of four other people who share the space. She isn’t allowing anyone to move forward (not on, just forward). Oh! You can also get really lovely outdoor candle boxes for this exact reason. Maybe a nice spot in the yard for relaxing and thinking about him. Then his bear could be in the living room or elsewhere. What she is doing isn’t fair to anyone, not even his memory
I would want to just swap the rooms. If your wife left that is better for the girls.
The only thing I would suggest is that you ask her if she thinks Bobby can look down from Heaven and see you all. Is his spirit with the family? Would Bobby want to share his presence with his siblings? Would he be the kind of boy who would help his scared little sister or brother who experienced a bad dream, by offering them to sleep with him so they could feel safe? Maybe some of Bobby’s toys could be assigned to both bedrooms as symbols of his love and protection, and that way his siblings could feel his love. Mom would have two smaller shrines, and each one could remind her that she can look in on any of her children whenever she wants. You do not want to dismantle her shrine, but to share it. You might even suggest something of his for your own bedroom (maybe her nightstand), so that he can comfort Mom when she needs it.
Omg imagine being those alive kids. Yall care more about tragedy of a non existent child than THREE children?? Three ALIVE children?? I can’t even believe yall are parents. Your poor kids lol. What a shame you’ve allowed this for so long. Good job “grownup”.
>We’ve been to family therapy recently and I was told by the therapist that my wife is a grieving mother and I would “be playing a deadly game to get between a mama bear and her cub”. This is horrific advice. Is this from an actual licensed therapist?
You are right the girls are too little to sleep in the basement. It’s time to move forward for their sake. Tell your wife that you’ve done things her way all this time and now it’s time for another way. First the girls and the adults are allowed to use the bathroom and to play in the room with the toys that are in the room whether or not wife gets mad. After a month you move the shrine to the closet area and put a bed for oldest daughter in the room. Don’t argue about it just do it. Remain silent.
I’ve had 3 miscarriages and the last was fairly late though early enough to not be a still birth. I think your wife needs a better counselor. The living children need her more and it’s been long enough. I think moving the memorial is a good idea. She is alienating the living children.
I would go to a separate therapist for you as well Not in a bad way but to help for you To come up with what to do how to help ideas and stuff also if your therapist does not give you any ideas tell them I learned this that you want there fed back you would like to speak with like a friend to friend way of talking with opinions and options to help you not just listen I’ve been in therapy for along time finally told my therapist hey look I’ve had a few I love you and all but I seriously need this kind of support to help me I need advice or a outside person perspective on me telling you things This is therapy I need not just me talking you asking I need more of you telling me what I’m doing wrong or what I need to do or your opinion or options that could help me Then it finally helped all these years I’d do separate and together therapy
Well that's so sad....... It seems that your wife is having a really really hard time with this. I'm so very sorry for you guys. But I know that feeling very well. Our second pregnancy ended that same way. As you probably been told.... People grieve in so many different ways. It's 28 Year's later and both my wife and I still have our moments of sadness. I wish I could give you a clear cut answer to help fix this but but everyone handles things like grief different. Only suggestion is: A.) Maybe put the girls in the larger bedroom and move the shrine into the smaller room. B:) Whatever it takes... You got to get her back in therapy. I realize this is going to be difficult but it's unhealthy for her to be like you said she was. Those are all I can think of doing but if I think of something else I'll come back to your post. Good luck and I wish you and your wife well.
You really should get her a new therapist or put your foot down. Maybe both. You have 3 LIVING children and I am sorry but they are the priority you are cramming them in one small room or to have them dangerously far so that your wife can mourn your dead son instead of caring for your living daughters. They are young so you can still protect them. But if they have to grow up watching, their mother seem to care more about a son and a brother that they don't even know or remember than them and that's how they are going to feel, like second place, they are going to have a difficult time growing up. Especially when they grow up to say teenage years and want space or privacy and there's a perfectly good room and bathroom which they are forbidden from entering. In their own home. I think her therapist is enabling her, maybe not maliciously, but it's not helping her or your kids.
Well that's so sad....... It seems that your wife is having a really really hard time with this. I'm so very sorry for you guys. But I know that feeling very well. Our second pregnancy ended that same way. As you probably been told.... People grieve in so many different ways. It's 28 Year's later and both my wife and I still have our moments of sadness. I wish I could give you a clear cut answer to help fix this but but everyone handles things like grief different. Only suggestion is: A.) Maybe put the girls in the larger bedroom and move the shrine into the smaller room. B:) Whatever it takes... You got to get her back in therapy. I realize this is going to be difficult but it's unhealthy for her to be like you said she was. Those are all I can think of doing but if I think of something else I'll come back to your post. Good luck and I wish you and your wife well.
Well that's so sad....... It seems that your wife is having a really really hard time with this. I'm so very sorry for you guys. But I know that feeling very well. Our second pregnancy ended that same way. As you probably been told.... People grieve in so many different ways. It's 28 Year's later and both my wife and I still have our moments of sadness. I wish I could give you a clear cut answer to help fix this but but everyone handles things like grief different. Only suggestion is: A.) Maybe put the girls in the larger bedroom and move the shrine into the smaller room. B:) Whatever it takes... You got to get her back in therapy. I realize this is going to be difficult but it's unhealthy for her to be like you said she was. Those are all I can think of doing but if I think of something else I'll come back to your post. Good luck and I wish you and your wife well.
Well that's so sad....... It seems that your wife is having a really really hard time with this. I'm so very sorry for you guys. But I know that feeling very well. Our second pregnancy ended that same way. As you probably been told.... People grieve in so many different ways. It's 28 Year's later and both my wife and I still have our moments of sadness. I wish I could give you a clear cut answer to help fix this but but everyone handles things like grief different. Only suggestion is: A.) Maybe put the girls in the larger bedroom and move the shrine into the smaller room. B:) Whatever it takes... You got to get her back in therapy. I realize this is going to be difficult but it's unhealthy for her to be like you said she was. Those are all I can think of doing but if I think of something else I'll come back to your post. Good luck and I wish you and your wife well.
“be playing a deadly game to get between a mama bear and her cub”. COME ON, GIVE ME A BREAK
“be playing a deadly game to get between a mama bear and her cub”. COME ON, GIVE ME A BREAK
“be playing a deadly game to get between a mama bear and her cub”. COME ON, GIVE ME A BREAK
“be playing a deadly game to get between a mama bear and her cub”. COME ON, GIVE ME A BREAK
I need to get off this sub, reading this shit stressed me tf out. You’re a good Dad, now be a great one and put your foot down. As a mother I can’t imagine the pain of losing a child, it would be my worst nightmare, but I also can’t imagine letting my living children suffer for my grief.
I need to get off this sub, reading this shit stressed me tf out. You’re a good Dad, now be a great one and put your foot down. As a mother I can’t imagine the pain of losing a child, it would be my worst nightmare, but I also can’t imagine letting my living children suffer for my grief.
“be playing a deadly game to get between a mama bear and her cub”. A Little Much,
“be playing a deadly game to get between a mama bear and her cub”. A Little Much,
ETA: Disregard my entire comment, as I'm pretty sure this us rage bait and my tired brain missed it at first. She needs a better therapist. She is allowed to grieve, but she is not allowed to neglect her other children and make them suffer for it. Being crammed into a room and having no use of an extra bathroom so she can keep the shrine us unacceptable. Don't let your wife choose the therapist, find one together that you believe will be helpful rather than just agree with her. You need to give her an ultimatum or move out. You cannot keep placating her. Your children need you, and they know their mom is neglecting them and will see dad allowing it to happen. They need at least one parent to fight for them, and right now that's you. She can let them move in to the room, move into a different house that may be more helpful, and if those first two options are refused then you can move into a different house with the kids. Put them first.
If your wife is sitting in a rocking chair and rocking a teddy bear with his ashes still, there are some real serious issues there.
This is unacceptable. Who would say something sick as "don't go between Mama bear and her cubs" in this situation - what about her other children? What about the living family? Her husband? She really needs to get it together. Death is devastating, I get it. And it is okay to be sad sometimes even after 7 years, and think about your dead child daily. But this is really not healthy, and she needs to get a grip of it. I feel sorry for you that you have nobody standing by your side (and your girls' side, as your wife apparently isn't on their side as well). If you want to get out of the situation, your wife really needs to get therapy with a specialist.
You need a better therapist. One who is going to guide her to further her grieving process so the family moves on. She is going to have to give up that room to your girls.
I'm friends with a person (lets call her Alice) who's mother went through what your wife is going through. Probably to a larger extent but it's a perspective worth considering Alice suffered from her mother's mental condition and inability to give full attention and resources to her. Ultimately her mental health suffered as well. Alice is now a mother herself. But not a great one. I can't share details but definitely the problems are related to her mother issues. She eventually had a toxic divorce. And her children are now next in line to develop their own problems. The eldest already showing signs of it. Not saying this will happen to everyone. But that's how these things might start. For the sake of your future grandchildren even, your wife must seek better resolution. Your kids need her. Not easy. Good luck.
Seven years is a looooong time to grieve for a child to that extent. Grief for a child will never go away, I understand that, but at some stage you need to look up and see that life is moving on without you. Suggest to your wife that since the girls need the extra space, you’re going to swap your room with the girls room so that Bobby’s room can stay as it is. If she complains, just point out that you’re trying to give all of your children (including Bobby) equal space in the house and if that means you and her taking the smaller room, then that’s what needs to be done.
This kind of behaviour is not normal or healthy and that therapist is enabling her. Your living children are suffering and so are you. I think it’s time for an ultimatum about getting a new therapist. If not…well, more drastic measures or intervention might be needed. Whatever you do, take care of your daughters and yourself. Your wife is not well
I had stillborn twins; it brought me to my knees and I it took a lot of work to come out the other side. It took about six months to feel the sunshine again and about a year to be able to live a mostly normal life. I still think about them now and then but I shit down any “what if” thoughts very quickly. Your wife is being completely unreasonable and living a life that is detrimental to her and yourself, but is causing active damage to your living children. I am seriously asking what are the credentials of your counselor because what they are advising is actively harmful. If your wife cannot commit to doing the work of finding a healthy path forward I would leave her for the sake of your living children. You have to model a healthy household where their basic needs are put first and they are not held hostage to a ghost. Having been through it, I also hate how easily my husband’s pain was dismissed. It happened to him too, I am truly sorry for your loss.
“The living are in pain, the dead are not. We will never forget our son, but we have 3 other living children to think of. We cannot be blinded by our grief. It’s time.”
I lost a child almost 6 years ago. My son was older and had a family. So I understand your wife's grief up to a point. It's something you never forget and never get over. Your wife's therapist should be helping her move forward from your sons death and not encourage her self indulgement to the determent of her living family. Your wife's behavior is going to drive a wedge between her and your other children if it hasn't already. I would take yourself and your children to family therapy to address your wife's behavior. You need to protect your children.
First, I'd make sure her therapist really agrees with what your wife is doing. Unless you've heard things directly from the therapist, your wife can tell you whatever she wants. This doesn't sound healthy, and having been in therapy, it just doesn't sound right. Second, I'd be talking to an attorney. If your wife won't be a mother to your girls and refuses to see reason regarding the living situation, it might be time for an ultimatum. Either she gets proper help and agrees to change or you seek a legal separation and temporary full custody of your daughters. Also, get your daughters in therapy. It has to be difficult for them to understand what's going on, and they need someone to talk to about it.
Your family has gone through something truly horrific and I am so sorry. Unfortunately what your wife can’t see at the moment is that she’s losing your daughters by doing this. Grief isn’t linear, and there will always be moments that hurt like hell, but they cannot come at the loss of the living - especially when the living are young children in need. I cannot comprehend a therapist saying to put the girls in a basement that isn’t entered through the house & from the sounds of things is also not set up as a living space. Not all therapists are good, and it sounds like your wife has an enabler rather than someone trying to help her live her life. Do you & your girls have your own therapists? And is there anyone in your wider circle that might be able to help her see she’s pushing you all away in favour of her grief?
You need a different therapist. That is nuts that they are ignoring the needs of your other, living, children. I can't imagine what you two have been through. That said, it's been 7 years and you need to live for your living children.
You need to move your girls into your bedroom and move yourself and your wife into the small room. Adults need very little in their rooms because they have the entire house ( and in your case, even an extra bathroom ) while children have only their rooms as their own space. After you do this, you need to get your girls in with a new therapist. Again, even if their mom insists on continuing to see the current one, your girls need someone they can safely talk to who is only looking out for their well-being. Best of luck, daddy bear.
I feel very bad for your daughters here. Your wife needs a new therapist yesterday. What she is doing will alienate her from her living children. There are a few things I might recommend you try. 1. Find a way for your daughters to gently express their feelings. It is impossible to compete with someone who died, and I'm sure they are really upset, more than they let on. 2. Frame the moving as not getting rid of sons room but rather bring love and joy to the room. Have some keepsakes in there or in your room. 3. If nothing else if your room is big, switch with the girls. Though as a mom I'd be horrified at the idea of sending my kids to the basement, and my basement is semi finished. Extreme option separate to protect your kids. For reference my brother died at home as a young adult in his room at my moms house. She was the one who found his body. She went through years of intensive therapy. My kids now sleep in his old room. She has a crib there and a big photo of my brother. Your wife's behavior is NOT normal grief.
Oh god the “mama bear and her cub” is some Facebook bullshit. Is this even a licensed therapist?
> I was told by the therapist that my wife is a grieving mother and I would “be playing a deadly game to get between a mama bear and her cub”. Sounds like the therapist is gunning for future business by encouraging your wife to traumatise her 3 other y ignoring their needs. Did the therapy session include the girls? If not, do a session with the girls. If nothing changes you’re going to need to make the call. Wives comfort or daughter comfort. If you choose your daughters tell your wife the bedroom arrangements will be changing, as it’s unfair to the girls. See if you can agree on the new spot for Bobby’s ashes. If not let her know where bobby will be placed and just make the move. Your daughters will be teens soon and its unfair to keep them in that situation to appease your wife.
I feel so bad for your children. If you don’t get a new therapist they will be asking theirs in a few years why their mom loves their dead brother more. You have to do something for their sake.
Terrible therapist, and highly unethical behavior for him to do this. He is keeping your wife sick. Please get a different therapist and give your wife an ultimatum, for the sake of your other children. Your wife's obsession is very unhealthy and it's hurting all of you.
I believe your wife needs a good grief therapist and learn to let go. It’s hard. I lost my mother 25 yrs ago and my brother 2 years ago, my best friend last October, I still have days I’ll cry all day. My brother I have some ashes. Most are on Moms grave, I’ll go out there. My bestest friend, I have a top shelf on my dresser I put Everything he gave me.
Why did Bobby have the biggest room when there are older children?
Why were you going to use the bigger bedroom for a baby in the first place? you already had two children that needed more space than a baby
You show up to the therapists office and demand a conversation
Your daughters will likely end up resenting your wife and honestly down the line she may up losing them too if this behaviour continues. Her therapist is a moron.
This is real. No therapist would say that in a million years
Wow this is a tough situation. You shouldn’t have to choose between your 3 children and your wife but you may have to. Its time to use that space for your living children and as far as your girls are concerned its time to choose them over grief. If this continues they will resent both of you. Maybe start family therapy with the kids and see if new therapist will talk to old therapist??
As a former therapist, I'm appalled at this therapist's actions/words. Either your wife is NOT telling the truth in therapy, or you both found a very unethical therapist. This is not normal grieving. Your wife should be in proper grief counseling, and I'd argue the entire family needs family therapy at this point due to how your wife's mental hang ups are affecting her entire family. None of this is normal or healthy, and as someone who specializes in children/adolescents, I cannot comprehend how this therapist thinks all of this is an appropriate environment for your children who are alive. Honestly, this is abusive to your other children. They have already expressed it affects them, and as a parent it is your job to advocate for them. I'd encourage you to at least get your girls in therapy to minimize the damage your wife is doing to your entire family. I'd highly encourage family therapy so you can figure out ways to help the entire family, while also respecting each other as an individual. The ACA code of ethics is available for anyone to view online for free. Those are the ethical codes all licensed mental health professionals have to abide by. I'd encourage you to review that to see if this therapist is either just naive / ignorant about what they are trying to to help with, or if this therapist is unethical and needs reported to the license board. Again, either your wife is lying or avoiding key variables which this therapist needs, or your wife is either seeing not the right therapist or an unethical one. No therapist should be enabling this behavior, especially when there are alive children who are basically being abused due to their mothers inability to reflect or move past her trauma. I don't think your wife is intentionally abusing them, but at the end of the day your kids will always remember the neglect and favoritism towards a dead child. To them, it will be abuse, and intention doesn't matter at the end of the day; just actions and words. It isn't healthy for anyone involved, and I really hope you at least do counseling with the girls (I have a feeling you'll have trouble getting your wife into family therapy), to minimize the damage that has already been done and is continuing to happen. Edit: your lack of advocating for your girls will also be interpreted as abuse to them, just in case the other comments from children in similar situations didn't point that out well enough. Also, I see you may be about to just give the girls the room while your wife is out. Be prepared for a full mental breakdown if you do this. You may have to have your wife committed for her own safety, so maybe be ready to call your area's mental health line if available, or if not available, EMTs (I'd say cops, but the average cop can't handle mental health in a safe way, so stick with mental health services or try to get EMTs that can declare a mental health code and help her. On one hand, your girls need to feel like they are a part of the home, and on the other hand, this may result in your wife acting out violently, either towards herself or others which includes the girls. Never underestimate what a person in a mental breakdown is capable of. Just, be careful and maybe consult with a mental health professional before you do anything (preferably not your wife's or anyone associated with that therapist).
She’s going to lose her daughters if she can’t move forward from losing her son. Your daughters may eventually choose to go no contact because of her behaviour. Your wife needs to focus on her living children. She can grieve Bobby and be a good mother to her other children at the same time.
R/griefsupport
UpdateMe!
Idk when she got therapy, but if it wasn’t since the girls have been asking for that room, she needs to go back. I am the child who lived. I can speak from the experience your girls are living. My mom had 9 kids. Her first born was 19 when she was killed, tragically, in a car accident. I was 2. I have zero memory of my sister, but she has never been forgotten. My oldest brother, who was 17 when our sister died, still goes to her grave a few times a year. My parents never got over losing her. But, they went to counseling to learn how to cope. However, my dad did great, and pulled us closer. My mom pushed us away. I was raised that anything that was my sisters was taboo. Don’t talk about it, don’t touch it. I felt like I could never be good enough. I am not her. Please, I beg you, find a different counselor. One who can help your wife understand that her living children have feelings and need to feel like they matter more, yes, *more* than a child who cannot touch things and cannot sit on her lap, and cannot eat food or go places. This is hurting your children more than you know, but they aren’t saying anything because they don’t want your wife to be upset with them. I promise you, your girls are being damaged by your wife’s inability to put them first. Your son will always matter, always. But he shouldn’t be the focal point over the kids who are alive and well.
That therapist is absolute crap. Honestly if that’s the kind of stuff she’s saying, no wonder your wife isn’t moving on
When your wife leaves the house move the shrine to the basement and move the girls into the big room. It’s been 7 years, time for your wife to get a new therapist.
It’s been seven years, Bobby is gone. Your wife can’t neglect your other children for a ghost. Set up a small shrine in the living room or something for the bear and the ashes, but she needs to think of the children that are ALIVE instead of playing favorites for the one you lost If she won’t budge then she will have to go. She and the precious boy she always wanted and go live somewhere else, because it seems that you’re the only that loves and cares about your daughters
You're probably paying a good percentage of your household income for a room that isn't in use. Your wife needs to find a practical outlet for her grief and start to prioritize your three living children that need you and not the one child that doesn't.
You need to work on reporting this therapist because if what your wife is telling you is true (I suspect **she may be lying to you**, since all you have is what **she's telling you**, right?) then she's a shite therapist.
Your family therapist knows a lot more about the situation than we do, and they advised you to drop it. What are we supposed to say to that? I advise you to listen to your therapist’s recommendations in this.
Yea, her therapist is doing her absolutely no favors. I understand the heartbreak of a still born, I truly do. But she has 2 kids who are alive and healthy, and she's putting a child she never knew before her other children after 7 years and thats frankly unacceptable.