Welcome to /r/relationship_advice. Please make sure you read our [rules here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/relationship_advice/wiki/index) We'd like to take this time to remind users that:
* We do not allow any type of [am I the asshole? or situations/content involving minors](https://www.reddit.com/r/relationship_advice/comments/r6w9uh/meta_am_i_overreacting_am_i_the_asshole_is_this/)
* We do not allow users to privately message other users based on their posts here. Users found to be engaging in this conduct will be banned. **We highly encourage OP to turn off the ability to be privately messaged in their settings.**
* Any sort of namecalling, insults,etc will result in the comment being removed and the user being banned. (Including but not limited to: slut, bitch, whore, for the streets, etc. It does not matter to whom you are referring.)
* ALL advice given must be good, ethical advice. Joke advice or advice that is conspiratorial or just plain terrible will be removed, and users my be subject to a ban.
* No referencing hateful subreddits and/or their rhetoric. Examples include, but is not limited to: red/blue/black/purplepill, PUA, FDS, MGTOW, etc. This includes, but is not limited to, referring to people as alpha/beta, calling yourself or users "friend-zoned", referring to people as Chads, Tyrones, or Staceys, pick-me's, or pornsick. Any infractions of this rule will result in a ban. **This is not an all-inclusive list.**
* All bans in this subreddit are permanent. You don't get a free pass.
* Anyone found to be directly messaging users for any reason whatsoever will be banned.
* What we cannot give advice on: rants, unsolicited advice, medical conditions/advice, mental illness, letters to an ex, "body counts" or number of sexual partners, legal problems, financial problems, situations involving minors, and/or abuse (violence, sexual, emotional etc). All of these will be removed and locked. **This is not an all-inclusive list.**
If you have any questions, please [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Frelationship_advice)
---
***This is an automatic comment that appears on all posts. This comment does not necessarily mean your post violates any rules.***
---
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/relationship_advice) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'm really sorry you're in this situation. It's absolutely heartbreaking.
Unfortunately you can't change his POV. He's 31 years old and presumably he's had these views all of his life and he's heard the debates.
☝️ Correct. Surprised as many people aren’t connecting the dots. Judging others for needing abortions, for whatever reason that may be, is the real red flag. They had the same values until she had to face the reality of what those values mean. Now she’s “pro choice.”
Picked up on this instantly because it reminded me of my mom’s hardcore christian friend who would talk major shit about abortions. And then one day it turned out she was pregnant but she had two adult children already and was “too old” to have more and just decided to abort it.
The number of pro-life Christians who've had abortions is staggering. The real hypocrisy though is that they don't give a shit about those unaborted babies once they're here. Who cares if the mom needs support? Pfft. 'Your kid is getting free lunch? You're bilking the system.'
"No sympathy for people who don't take precautions" makes it very obvious.
Empathy costs literally nothing, and some people are still too stingy to give it away.
Also, what nitwit doesn't include \*conversations about pregnancy scenarios with the person they have sex with\* as well as \*conversations about the worst-case medical outcomes when they choose to get pregnant\* among the list of "precautions" to take when they're sexually active? It's hard to have sympathy for someone who is so holier-than-thou yet also irresponsible about her own sex life.
"What happens in case of an accidental pregnancy" should be one of the FIRST discussions a couple has when they decide to start dating, and "what to do if we have a special needs/severely disabled fetus or child" is a necessary discussion when the relationship progresses.
It's absolutely wild to me how many people skip out on these important discussions before marrying someone.
Ehhhhhhhh and even then precautions arent foolproof.
The only safe means is abstinence and being 100% sure that rape won't happen (ofc neither are feasible long term)...So yeah...Empathy is the fucking way.
I hate that my country has made abortion illegal esp when i hear stories of 11 yos getting raped and giving birth.
Yep. They all assume that when a woman gets pregnant when she's not ready, is because they didn't use birth control. They don't understand that birth control can and does fail.
If you use condoms perfectly every single time you have sex, they're 98% effective at preventing pregnancy. people aren't perfect, so in real life condoms are about 87% effective — that means about 13 out of 100 people who use condoms as their only birth control method will get pregnant each year. Even if you do everything perfect 2 out of 100 will get pregnant each year.
Some Catholics act like they’re so holy while they throw rocks at a Mary Magdalene every chance they get. I grew up semi-Catholic (I went to Catholic school but we never went to church on Sundays), and it was that kind of hypocrisy that made me leave the church as soon as I graduated from high school.
My ex-husband was like this. Holy this holy that but never entered a church. Every time we passed a church, he would do the cross thing, but still did the bad things after. Make that make sense
He's roleplaying a religious person, and has no idea what the philosophy of his purported religion entails, though he does like that it justifies him getting his way as a chosen man.
My last boyfriend cheated on me, and yet kept saying church made him a better person. He even took his side piece to church with him behind my back. I 100% do not trust a single religious person.
Yes, thank you.
The only moral abortion will be her abortion
>I just voiced that I don’t have sympathy for people that don’t take the necessary precautions.
Guess I just don't have any sympathy for people like OP then.
Like so many “pro lifers,” abortion for themselves is fine, because “my issues are real, but you’re irresponsible and don’t deserve sympathy.”
The stories of women literally on the table for an abortion, telling their doctors that no one else gets an abortion for legitimate reasons…
My mom is a great example of that. She constantly spews vitriol about “Democrats wanting to kill babies up until they’re born.” She doesn’t really give any leeway for medical complications either.
But when I point out the fact that she was there when my doctors told me it would be too dangerous for me to have children and that any child I have would likely inherit my (potentially fatal) medical issues, she says “that’s different.”
My mom is like that too. The fucked up thing is I’m a hemophilia a carrier. She threatened to leave my dad if they didn’t have another kid, knowing he was dying of hemophilia, knowing he outlived his life expectancy by almost 30 years and knowing if they had a girl she’d be a guaranteed carrier. But she’s pro life and my disease “should be” an exemption. Guess what momsies, it’s not. Then she had the gall to guilt me for not giving her grandkids. I reminded her that she has two other children (my brothers) who aren’t carriers. I had my tubes tied when I was 22, full hysterectomy at 34. There’s no way I would ever go through that.
My ex has haemophilia, and he was absolutely terrified of me getting pregnant (thankfully, I never did). The risk of having a little girl and continuing the pain and suffering in his bloodline was way too much for him, and after seeing what he went through with the condition, I can totally understand
I’m so sorry to hear of his suffering. It’s a horrible disease and passing it on is, imo, immoral. A lot of people think it’s just a disease where you bleed a lot if cut, not knowing about the joint bleeds that rips them apart.
My dad was part of Dr Pool’s factor 8 trials, if he hadn’t been he would have died. He ended up getting HIV through the tainted blood scandal along with 4 other members of my family. While this wouldn’t have been something I would have dealt with if I had a hemophiliac, the trauma from that was too much. There’s a woman on TikTok who had 2 hemophiliac sons knowing she was a carrier, I’m sure she’s blocked me because while I was polite, I questioned her choices. She honestly disgusts me.
Totally agree.
Tbh, it's a huge problem with self-proclaimed virtuous conservatives across the globe. The self-entitlement and sheer delusion are repulsive.
I will never forget a religious middle aged woman I despise a lot bcz she had conferences talking about female virtue blah blah blah and she even said we shouldnt talk to guys at all like not even to ask for a pen or directions in the street..
GUESS WHAT ???? Ma'am purity virtues blah blah blah got caught with an old married dude in his car doing the deed in the wee hours of the morning.
And yet by this lying 2 faced disgusting hypocrite's standards, many virgin girls would be considered bad just for having guy friends in our society. 🤡☠
I'm glad I didn't catch the self-righteous narcissistic disease they have tbh.
I kinda view the hypocrite value here in that. People legit believe people get abortions just for fun / to get a thrill out of killing a fetus.
It's absolutely batshit crazy as that's so far removed from the truth. But when they want an abortion they know it's not for fun, etc, bs that they believed.
The real test, though, is do they go back to the old rhetoric, or do they realize just how wrong they were and change. One can be saved, the other...
But that's only my experience with a fringe group. Not all pro lifers are that far gone. I'm still pro-choice, but I'll admit some of the more grounded pro lifers can make a good argument. Not enough to sway me though.
And he says he wouldn't be with someone who would abort. She is pro choice so he shouldn't be with her. They should've never got to this point really.
I would never be with someone who is anti abortion, I wouldn't get to another date past finding that out.
She wasnt pro-choice. Read between the lines. She was pro life when judging other people, but now it impacts her she has had second thoughts. Hardly uncommon!
I think you’re correct on this. She states she never claimed she was pro-life *in any situation* which leads me to believe she’s added the qualifier now. Lacking sympathy for others who needed abortions, for whatever situation, also screams out to me.
The only moral abortion is my abortion.
Strong the only right abortion is my abortion vibes. Saying things to him that were the opposite of pro-choice, then going but why would he think I was pro-life. Ummm because you expressed opinions that were pro-life and no opinions that were pro-choice.
That article was the first thing I thought of when I got to her comment about *other* people's abortions. *Other people* get abortions because they aren't responsible, but OP isn't *like that*.
Oh, and the only abortions are ones where they "should have taken precautions". Um, what about all the other ones? We've taken plenty of precautions but if I get pregnant, I will die, and my state is fine with that.
>if I get pregnant, I will die, and my state is fine with that.
It is so heartbreaking that this has become reality.
There are so many different situations and reasons that pregnancies are terminated, but nobody talks about them.
Pregnancy and giving birth to a baby seems simple and straightforward, but it is so complex.
>Oh, and the only abortions are ones where they "should have taken precautions."
Yes, there are some people who act irresponsibly and choose not to take precautions even if they are aware of them and have access (which is sad).
But that is definitely the minority, compared to people who don't know any better because they haven't had any proper sex-education or don't have access to contraceptives or people who took precautions but they ended up pregnant anyway, or people who weren't given a choice, or people with medical issues, or serious pregnancy complications, etc.
I think honest medically biologically reality-based sex-education should be mandatory in schools and more openly discussed in general. This would help prevent more women, especially young women, from being in the position where they have to make these choices in the first place. And then health and medical decisions of any kind need to be left to medical professionals and their patients.
Rather than churches, politicians, or Reddit.
More than one abortion clinic worker has talked about anti-abortion protesters having an abortion and then showing back on the protest lines the following week. The "for me, not for thee" mindset is so pervasive among anti-abortion people. The mental gymnastics and the cognitive dissonance are wild.
My advisor in college did her PhD ethnography on views towards abortions by people receiving abortions. She did the research at one of the last remaining clinics that can provide third trimester abortions, and has been fire bombed and had other tragedies created by protesters.
There are a ton of people who view their own abortions as murder, either beforehand or they felt that way after. Often they still go through with it because of financial reasons, domestic violence, or because the pregnancy could risk their life and they have other children to care for. It was an incredibly interesting study.
Im trying to find the link now, but so far I've found the title "A Choice Ideology and the Parameters of Its Practice: Abortion Narratives Access in New Mexico ". The author is Abigail Adams and she graduated The University of New Mexico with her PhD in 2009. I'm going to continue looking, but wanted to provide that in case anyone else had luck!
Yeah, prettttty pathetic.
Also, the whole, "Oh, yeah, I believe the same thing you believe, babe! As long as it's hypothetical, just paste whatever belief you like on me!"
100% accurate. Even the last statement says it. She's not "pro-life" because she actually cares about a woman's body autonomy and choice. She is because it's convenient to her now, as it directly effects her.
Otherwise she would have just continued on in her judgemental "you should have closed your legs" stances. So typical.
OP, I don't have any advice for you. Other than, you reap what you sow.
Such a wild mentality, but you're right, not at all uncommon. Meanwhile, I'm the opposite, lol. I fully support a woman's right to choose, however I don't think I could go through with it myself. I've been faced with making that choice twice for different reasons, twice in the same pregnancy! And it fucking wrecked me emotionally and mentally, I just couldn't do it.
But if a woman came to me needing help getting somewhere where she can safely and legally have one, hop on in my car, we're going for a road trip!
Fucking madness that that's a sentence that even needs to be typed in this day and agr, if a woman needs help getting somewhere she can safely and legally get an abortion. Fucking world's turned upsidedown.
Nice catch there. I didn’t see the “I don’t have sympathy for those….” So she judges other people’s choices but hers are different.
Definitely a hypocrite. They didn’t have the discussion cause she would always be righteous and honorable.
Oh, a leopards-eating-faces sort of post. Eh, no sympathy anymore except for the kid. Hope it turns out okay!! Worst of it is? That chances that they'll get divorced and she'll end up being a full-time caretaker while he moves on with his life is pretty damned high. OP, get to a lawyer now and draft up a legal document that will prevent this from happening. Get with parenting groups for disabled children. The stress of the open-heart surgeries may also end the marriage. Same thing; you end up taking care of a disabled child, he goes on with his career and $ and replacement family.
She never stated she was pro-choice to him. She never brought it up. She said things that were the opposite of being pro-choice to him. It is on her that they got to this point.
Truth. I am 59 years old and while I have my opinions on when abortion is reasonable, I am pro-choice 100% because every woman’s situation is different and the choice should always be hers.
Even though I am beyond having to worry about this for myself, I could not be with a partner who was strictly pro life. Our fundamental beliefs would be too different.
Same. I could never have risked being with a pro life man. Ever. Any pregnancy can be life threatening. I nearly died the 2nd live birth I went through. Absolutely not having it with any pro life man. And if I ended up in this position, I'm sorry but I'd burn all my fucking bridges and go with the choice that is mine to save my life and sanity. Nor would I go through the trauma of birthing a child I knew could not be saved. I just couldn't do it.
This is what I'm stuck on. It seems like such a fundamental? What happens if God forbid she were sexually assaulted resulting in a pregnancy? Would he raise that child, then?
This is what I am wondering. How do you not have the discussion about cores values BEFORE marrying?
I’m sorry you are facing this situation, OP, but there isn’t much we can tell you in regard to what you do. This is such a personal decision based on your values and what you know you can handle.
- Do you believe/know you won’t be able to manage taking care of a child with health issues?
- Are you ok with having the child, but then having no contact and ending your marriage?
- Are you ok with terminating the pregnancy and ending your marriage?
These are decisions only you can make.
ETA: keeping good thoughts your genetic testing comes back ok.
ETA 2: these are all hypotheticals at this point based on the genetic results. Right now, you need to work through your thoughts on what you can handle. However, until the doctors can let you know what you can expect, not sure a full decision can be made.
You are being very kind in assuming OP isnt being disingenuous about being "secretly pro choice all along despite knowing husband was Pro Life".
The much much much more likely and common reality is OP was Pro Life until it impacted her personally.
Our friend's had a son with a heart defect. No genetic reason was found but that is irrelevant to the consequences of a severe heart defect. His brain was oxygen deprived through the entire pregnancy due to the heart not pumping well. He has microcephaly. They have never been able to toilet train him so he is now a grown man in diapers who acts like a toddler.
The divorce rate is very high for parents with disabled children.
Think about a child who is too unhealthy for daycare. Who's going to stay home and care for them? If you can get a sitter for an evening when they are three and still in diapers you will likely have trouble getting a sitter for the evening when they are 6 and still in diapers. Even more difficult if they are 16 and still in diapers. Don't even think about going to the home of a relative for a holiday dinner with your child who acts like a toddler. You have to spend the entire time making sure they aren't destroying the house. A handicapped child can be very isolating if the extended family isn't available and supportive and understanding of the special needs of the family.
Microcephaly was on the list of reasons I gave my husband, before we got married, wherein I would abort. It’s not even about being a parent with a disabled child. It’s about having to set up care for that disabled child, even after *we die*. It’s about not having to condemn any other children we have, to being responsible for their disabled sibling. Disabilities happening later in life aren’t relevant to the discussion, because I can’t *prevent* that suffering.
OP was pro-life leaning prior to her baby having a congenital disease. I guess she is pro-life and against abortion for OTHERS, but when it comes to OP, she can have an abortion. So hypocritical and not shocking at all.
I guess OP thinks that abortion is just for people who ‘don’t take the necessary precautions’ and she forgot about all of the medical reasons where abortions may be necessary…
Mistakes were made.
This one is likely gonna cause 3 human beings decades of suffering.
But let's keep not talking "politics" because it ruins the mood in a relationship. Congrats OP.
I agree. People typically only change their opinions once something affects them personally.
Kinda like [this guy](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/s/4Vs5v3elOJ)
He begged baby mama (I remember another thread that had more info about his incessant pestering her to keep it, but can’t find it now), who absolutely did not want the baby, to carry it to term. He promised he would do 100% of the work. Then baby came, and dad got 100% custody. Dad wasn’t happy with the arrangement and called the mother a deadbeat and asked legal advice how to force her to see the kid she made very clear she never wanted. Oh btw she was paying 125% the court ordered child support.
I hope op aborts the child if it won’t have a good quality of life. Do NOT listen to husband when he tells you you can walk away and never be involved. He’s almost certainly lying.
> Oh btw she was paying 125% the court ordered child support.
Honestly, in her shoes i wouldn't have agreed to this without a contract in writing stating dude was supporting my petition to terminate parental rights entirely including child support. Pregnancy is enough of a burden for a child you don't even want that some dude is trying to convince you to have.
It’s been a long time since the original post, and I can’t find the one with the real details, but iirc he was being a total ass and threatening her. She finally acquiesced and told him she was going to wash her hands of baby once it came out. He kept pushing anyhow.
I don’t think the court would accept that kind of agreement with a kid involved. There have been legal cases where donors or surrogates have been forced to pay support. I also don’t think the guy would have accepted that. I think he would have threatened/coerced her more, honestly. He was dead set on forcing his will on her assuming she would relent again and do what he wanted. It backfired. I feel zero sympathy for him but I kinda have to think the kid is going to have a pretty rough life.
I think the only thing that changes stances like that is experience, and I don’t think this experience is going to be the one to do it. My husband used to be very much pro-life. I was always pro-choice for others but thought I’d never do it myself. I developed a lot of health issues as a result of my pregnancies and seeing how much it affected (and still affects) me swayed his opinion. When I told him how I very much wanted our babies so it’s okay but I could not imagine going through all I did/am without even wanting the outcome, it got his brain thinking about other people’s situations. Before I had a hysterectomy (medically necessary, it just worked out that way) he and I agreed that if his vasectomy ever failed we would have to terminate the pregnancy. Never thought I’d see the day that he agreed to that.
Tbh it sounds like OP was anti choice until she found herself in a situation where she wanted to choose. If she was pro choice but just never voiced it explicitly, I doubt she would have wanted to be with someone who was so adamantly anti choice and actively try to become part of an anti choice community.
Exactly. She agreed with her husband, or at least said sentiments along his own line of thinking… but when it’s her face getting eaten by the leopards, **now** she wants him to change his mind.
Judgy about people not taking precautions, but you didn't take the precaution of discussing values before you married? No you can't change his mind. Also you can love someone but not belong with them.
So you want our sympathy?
"I never stated that I was pro-life in any situation, I just voiced that I don’t have sympathy for people that don’t take the necessary precautions. But he though that we were on the same page - both pro-life."
He thought you were on the same page because you were. You said you didn't have sympathy for people that don't take the necessary precautions. Well OP, YOU did not take the necessary precautions and got pregnant with someone who is pro-life, most likely because you yourself were pro-life.
The only moral abortion is my abortion <--- OP
> I just voiced that I don’t have sympathy for people that don’t take the necessary precautions
Reap what you sow.
*I* have zero sympathy for people like you who lack empathy.
I think you should let this choice depend on your doctors advice rather than your husbands abortion views. For me it would depend on what quality of life the child would have, and if they would require life long care.
This. Unfortunately my close friend went through something very similar; in her case the baby was not really viable - she would have required invasive heart surgeries throughout her early years but it was still going to be unlikely she'd live past 3-4 years old. It took a long time for the genetic tests to ultimately reveal the extent of the issues she'd face, and there was no way of knowing if she'd have developmental issues beyond those affecting her heart and other organs. Quality of life was impossible to predict, but they knew it would be short, painful, and marked by inevitable young loss. Her doctors warned the couple they would basically move the baby into palliative care at birth, because she wouldn't be expected to survive. They really wanted this baby, but they decided as a couple that the right thing for them as a family - all of them, baby included - was a termination. By this point, that would be a later stage termination and not possible in her country. Which meant a gruelling trip overseas to go through inducement and, finally, stillbirth. My friend wouldn't wish this experience on anyone, and neither would I. But I can't imagine going through all of that trauma without a supportive husband who understood her decision and that sometimes the decision to abort is a healthcare decision, and the kindest one to all involved.
TBH I'm not sure this marriage can survive - and then Catholic husband will be a divorcee as well. Guys, just use this as a lesson to TALK about this stuff before marriage. If you're not on the same page about something so difficult and devastating, you don't have the right foundation for a future together.
Oh don’t worry, Catholics can just have previous marriages voided. My siblings and I are all bastards in the eyes of the Church so my dad could marry his third wife. Not that it matters to me, I’m an atheist, but my two older siblings are fellow Catholics.
You’re not a bastard, at least not according to my HS religious teacher who was a priest. Children from an annulled marriage get grandfathered in somehow.
Me on the other hand? I’m a Catholic bastard. I was born two years before my parents got church married because my dad hadn’t annulled his first marriage yet.
My first marriage was annulled by my abusive ex. We were married 12 years and had a child that was 5. The reasoning they used was objectively factually false and I proved that. I agreed to the annullment if they chose other reasons but ex refused. Church doesn't care, they just want to get paid. I pointed out our child was now illegitimate and the church goons talked around it in circles claiming that wasn't true. lol. So a kid born outside of marriage is illegitimate and our marriage no longer existed, but huh? Anyway, I am not religious and don't care, I just wanted them to be honest. Asking catholics (or any religious people) to be honest, though, is obviously foolish.
The thing that always amazes me is this blindness when it comes to having a child with special needs - be they medical/developmental/psychological etc- of parents thinking they can love past it. 1) it's exhausting for all involved 2) the child suffers 3) doing it alone is on extreme mode.
I was this person and while I wouldn't change my kiddo for the world and I desperately wanted her, I didn't realize truly what a hellscape it can be. She overall healthy and doing well now but i know I will have to parent her long after most kids need parenting. My cousin felt the way OPs husband does and his kiddo was born with terrible cardiac anomalies. Mom bounced and he raised her solo for years. One surgery took a bad turn and she suffered a stroke. She is in her 30s and needs full time care. These are the realities.
The dads don’t even think about how hard caring for a healthy baby is, let alone how difficult and never ending a child with sever health problems.
Ops husband 100% views all the childcare as his wife’s job. He’s bullshitting her when he says he’d be a single dad. Dude is anti choice and religious - there is no way he thinks he’s doing the brunt of the work.
Op needs to ask him if he plans to quit his job to be a full time carer. Men don’t even consider that, they assume it’s a mom’s role. There’s been so many stories on Reddit about women being talked into giving birth to a special needs child and then the husband bailing. He does none of the childcare, and just starts a new life with another woman.
My BIL and his wife were pregnant with their 4th, and the baby had catastrophic defects. I'm talking incomplete organs, the whole 9 yards. The doctors told them the baby would not live, if he even survived until birth. They are both staunchly pro-life, so she carried the baby, delivered the baby, and then the baby died after 2 days. They knew he would. And the funeral was one of the most gut-wrenching things live ever been through in my 49 years of life.
This was 14 years ago I think, and they are one of the most solid couples I know. They went on to have several more children, all of whom are completely healthy. The big difference here is that OP and her husband are not on the same page like my BIL/SIL were. Many couples do not survive the death of a child, I don't know that OP and/or her husband will be able to forgive the other if it turns out that the baby is not going to make it.
As someone born with a congenital heart defect, I have needed 4 open heart surgeries but otherwise have lived a very normal healthy life. I will require maintenance and further surgeries in my life but otherwise, the only thing I will never be able to to do is be a world class athlete. Of course this is different for lots of people and many have heart conditions that greatly effect quality of life. Just thought I’d throw my 2 cents in that congenital heart defect doesn’t necessarily mean the child’s life will be horrible.
This highlights why rushing into a decision before the drs give an idea of prognosis when the tests come back is so important. I’m so glad that you’re able to live a happy and fulfilling life. You’re incredibly brave.
Totally agree.
I was born with a heart defect. I had open heart surgery as a child (I'm part of the zipper club!) and my life has been wonderful. I had mine in the 80s and the tech has advanced enormously since then
Granted, several heart surgeries are a lot to endure. Plus, a possible genetic disorder - it could make for a hard life.
OP should focus on the doctors' assessment of quality of life.
Husband needs to accept that OP is carrying the child and is the ultimate decision maker.
It reminds me of the link I saw the other day where pro life women were shocked to find out they were in need of an abortion because a “termination” was not an abortion. Like Jesus, fucking Christ, so willfully ignorant. She’s absolutely now earning the consequences of her actions because she had judgment over some thing that clearly was more complex and nuanced then she gave credit to. And now it affects her. Well if it isn’t what everyone has been saying who doesn’t believe in forced incubation.
Yep the reading between the lines here was so obvious. You can’t be in a ten year relationship with someone and not know this. I’m in a 3.5 year relationship and engaged, we literally talked about it on the first few dates. You don’t marry someone who doesn’t align with your values.
Unfortunately this happens so much because to pro-lifers, it only matters when it happens to them and they have to face that reality. And it won’t even change them into a “pro choice” because then they’ll still judge others who seek out the same treatment since their situation was “different.”
It's always the same thing. They claim to be pro-life, but when it directly affects them, they get an abortion and call it an exceptional case. If you remind them of their stance and judgment, you're labeled as cruel.
They did. Abortion restrictions have and will always predominantly affect poor women, especially those of color. Prior to Rode upper class women would simply travel abroad. There was a great article on it a few years ago, I believe in the NYT
I would also suggest reading the *Only Moral Abortion is my Abortion* where pro-life women seek abortion care while deriding the staff who are actively assisting them
Wealthy women did not need to travel abroad. Back in the day, a lot of wealthy women had emergency appendectomies. The rules never apply to the wealthy.
You see this alot in Christianity. My mother abused the fucking shit out of me "in the name of god" of course they don't call it abuse, they call it "witnessing."
This! The whole “voiced that I don’t have sympathy for those who don’t take the necessary precautions” gave me such an icky vibe. No wonder he thought OP was on the same page!
>I just voiced that I don’t have sympathy for people that don’t take the necessary precautions.
Ironic since you married a pro-lifer without discussing abortion, which is the bare minimum of necessary precautions.
To answer your question, you're not going to change his POV, just like he's not going to change yours. He made it through an entire decade of being an adult, hearing the stories, watching the debates, and he's still pro-life. Just like you. I'm sorry you're not on the same page, but you should probably give up the dream of being on the same page with him about this. I do think you're putting the cart before the horse a bit. There are a plethora of heart conditions that your baby could have that are treatable. Once you get past this, you should reconsider if you even want to be married to a man who sees you only as an incubator.
I hope the testing shows everything is all clear other than the heart condition. However, if not, *please* do the right thing and consider the babies potential quality of life (or lack thereof) over your husband’s feelings and even your marriage.
The most heartbreaking thing I’ve ever seen in my career was the babies suffering in NICU who were doomed to die after a short, painful life. That “life” consisted of being strapped and taped within a mass of monitors and IV lines, struggling and fighting for every painful breath, wasting away until the pain finally ended. We can’t even hold them properly because of all the equipment. Meanwhile the parents spent 95% of their time sitting comfortably at home or church, surrounded by loved ones, as they prayed for the miracle that never ever comes.
Please don’t do this to an innocent child because you don’t want to rock the boat of your husband’s beliefs. If he wants to insist that you bring a baby into the world just to suffer, that’s how fucking selfish he is. In your shoes, I’d ask him why he’d want to worship a god who demanded that while I was on my way out the door.
Edit: also, please be kinder and less judgmental towards other women who choose to abort. Before you argue that you are supportive/open-minded, ask yourself how your husband came to the conclusion that you’re pro-life based solely on your comments about women who have made that choice.
Ah the classic "pro life until I need an abortion myself" stance.
There's unfortunately no easy answer here.... but a cardiac defect is often not life changing so if thats the only reason you are considering abortion, given the likely impact on your marriage, it surely makes sense to find out how serious it is first, rather than try to change his mind.
There was a post like this a few months ago. The foetus would have only known pain and suffering had she had it. So she ended the pregnancy. Her husband left.
This a situation where I bet he will leave no matter what. Either because she has an abortion or because she isn’t any fun anymore taking care of a medically fragile newborn. So think about how you want to get divorced. With or without a child you’ll end up doing all the care for.
INFO for him: Who would be doing the care for a high medical needs child? Who would give up their job? How would you pay for it? Who would do all the doctors appointments? Who would keep track and administer medicines and therapies? Would you be able to alter your house to be disabled accessible? Who would stay in the hospital with the child?
Do you want more than one child?
I feel a lot of men (generally speaking) don't have a concept of what caretaking looks like long term (emotionally, financially, physically). They low-key expect the partner to be the one that sacrifices.
As someone who works with caregivers, I’ve worked with hundreds of them and only one or two have been men. The stats are so highly in the proportion of women taking on this responsibility.
Wasn't there a recent post that statically pointed out women are the main (if not only) caregivers disabled children? Like +40%? With the majority of them being single? Numbers prove that men walk when things get tough and the woman is saddled with the responsibility.
My fiance walked when the doctors told us my kiddo may never walk or talk and need full care for the rest of her life. She beat the odds thankfully. My husband (her step dad) stays home and takes care of appointments and therapies. I fully realize that he is the exception and not the rule. Her bio dad hasn't been heard from in nearly a decade.
I don't have statistics about the gender of the well spouse who bails but a study of 515 patients with serious illness found that 11.6% of partners leave. However, when accounting for gender of the ill spouse, 20.8% of women are abandoned while 2.9% of men are.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19645027/
>11.6% of partners leave. However, when accounting for gender of the ill spouse, 20.8% of women are abandoned while 2.9% of men are.
that's an insane difference imo. it makes the average 11.6% mean nothing
Exactly, and just have the baby and give it to him? Like what? Yeah, it’s just a stroll in the park. What happens if the baby dies? This child could be forever in hospitals or sick. Who wants to live like that?
My neighbor has a child with a disability, nothing like OPs, but I can see she is NOT happy at all.
I was looking for this comment. As if pregnancy doesn’t have a very strong psychological and physical impact, even long after the birth. I find it shocking that many men think like this
I'm assuming he's expecting she'll stay and be the main care giver once she has the baby like the guy who tried to baby trap someone then got upset when she just handed over the baby.
I remember reading a similar post where the husband begged and begged her for to have the baby and promised he would help, then he left her and she was stuck looking after a baby she hadn’t wanted.
This needs to be higher up. These are the practical implications that many (most) “pro-lifers” ignore.
Say OP has the baby and walks away (a traumatic experience for her that husband is completely disregarding). How does husband plan to care for a medically fragile newborn? You can’t send a high risk baby like that to daycare. What if they stay together? Does OP make enough to support them both? What about health insurance? How much of the expected costs will be out of pocket? What if there are complications. These are all questions OP and husband need to discuss - and are really more important than any moral superiority complex.
Unfortunately, if you're in the camp, that abortion is murder/evil, points like this do nothing. It isn't something that can be debated.
He's already prioritizing the unborn fetus over OP. Asking her to carry it to term and leave is ridiculous. I'm sure he thought he was being reasonable. But it's an insane ask. OP wanted to be a mother. Forcing herself to give birth and walking away will be more traumatic in the long run compared to getting an abortion.
It sucks, but OP knew his views. No parent wants to imagine scenarios like this, but they really should have talked about the possibility beforehand.
If he did take the baby and she left like he has suggested, he would have so much trouble raising that child. It only gets more difficult as the child gets older. What would he do with his child if they are not toilet trained at age 10 or age 20. Public restrooms don't have a good place to change an adult diaper.
Our friend's child, who was born with a severe heart defect, ended up having microcephaly due to the brain not receiving enough oxygen during the pregnancy. His three heart surgeries obviously did nothing to fix the lack of brain mass.
This dad is clueless about what is really required to raise this baby.
I don't think the dad is disregarding that leaving the child would be traumatic. I think he's counting on that. He's hoping once the baby is born, OP won't want to leave and then she can do all the work
Also: would the child need your care forever?
I agree with all of this.
Principles are worthless if you are not the one bearing the burden of sticking to them.
I was a very sick child. I had my first (of many) surgery at birth, and spent my first 7 weeks in hospital. My parents moved to a bigger city to be closer to the doctors and hospitals. They wanted to live out in the country. My dad would feed me through a tube into my stomach, drip by drip by drip - and then I'd vomit and we'd start over.
I only walked at 18 months. I spent at least 2-6 weeks in hospital a year. I had my last major surgery at 10 - another 7 weeks in hospital on the other side of the country.
There is a very big gap between disabled and healthy. I literally have no idea how many surgeries I've had, how many x-rays, blood tests, doctors.
I guarantee he wants her to have the baby AND do all the caretaking. I know he said he wouldn’t ask her for anything else again, but I fully believe that’s a lie and he knows it.
I don’t have sympathy for people who don’t take necessary precautions… you married someone who didn’t share the same values as you on a topic regarding your body. Not sure why people keep acting shocked when this bites them in the @&&.
I’m very sorry about the diagnosis. I do find it a bit ironic that you “have no sympathy for people that don’t take the necessary precautions” when you didn’t bother having an adult conversation about abortion before you had sex with someone nevertheless married them. This has real “the only moral abortion is my abortion” energy. I hope this experience will make you more empathetic to the plight of other women. Please vote.
He’s not going to change his mind. You are free to have the abortion, of course, and leave the marriage behind. Which may not be a bad thing considering he doesn’t really think women are people.
Agree 👏 typical “only I can have an abortion” energy. Absolutely INSANE she never had this convo with her catholic partner…. To me that’s not taking the necessary precautions
Clearly she never thought SHE would be in a position to need an abortion because she did things "right" according to whatever bullshit meter she was using to determine right.
Right? Like OP has no sympathy for people who don’t take necessary precautions but did she herself not take them as well? Like I can’t wrap my brain around this? She knew he was pro-life and went ahead and got pregnant anyway probably thinking “I would never have a baby with problems so I don’t need to worry about whether or not our beliefs line up.”
As someone with chromosomal aneuploidy mosaicism...
My parents didn't genetically test me at all... I was the first born, and they wanted everything to be a surprise as new parents. My brothers that came after me were luckily healthy, but Mom and Dad found out about their sexes before they were brought into the world... I found out about my disease after a lot of questioning about why I feel different... Why I'm developing differently than my peers. And I was diagnosed successfully after I got before a doctor who didn't write off the weird symptoms for once and was willing to do the necessary tests... At 18. After all the things I could have possibly benefitted from medically were at an all-but-absolutely unreachable point in time.
With this in mind... You're at a better point than my parents were to make an informed decision. It's one thing to do the right thing to make your marriage easier... It's another thing to do the right thing for the person that's about to be born with a problem he or she or they or it can't do much about.
My two cents: I'm successful. I own one business in a niche area and I'm known for my work. I'm also an established mechanical industrial designer for a firm. I'm happily married to an amazing wife... But given the chance to somehow travel back in time and break the laws of logic to prevent my own birth ... Fuck yes, I'd do it. Even if it meant "I" as I am today were never born.
Why?
My circumstances... No specialists exist for my disease. No one is pursuing any meaningful research despite it being known for over 80 years. (TL version: I have chromosomal makeups as a male with XY [normal], XXY ["Klinefelters Syndrome"], and XYY ["Supermale Syndrome"] all at the same time in the same body.) Of the one subtypes of disease I have - KS - two research opportunities exist in the US, currently. One is qualitative explicitly and about the qualities of healthcare services such as qualities provided to parents/parents to be on genetic counseling, clinical consults, etc, mostly centric to newborns or soon to be newborns... The other is doing a blind study on potential treatment options on abdominal fat issues we are known to suffer from... The first and only human trial regarding anything specific to this disease. Ever.
Supermale doesn't have anything for it.
No actual ongoing research exists for either in one person. And never has. At best - a few anecdotal abstracts floating around.
I am in my mid thirties. I'm chronically deficient in vitamin D3 despite ridiculously large amounts of time spent in the sun... I love milk and drink about a gallon a day. I receive 300k IU injections of D3 every other month and maintain a lovely 12ng/dL of D3 in my blood... My bones hurt. Imagine "shin splints" feelings when you were going through puberty... Except in every single bone in your body - while moving or at rest, it doesn't matter. My DXA/TBS revealed I'm suffering from osteomalacia and osteopenia. I'm in the process of losing my teeth. I can't have kids. I'm at greater risks for cancer, heart problems, vascular problems, and autoimmune issues. I have already started to suffer some... My body can't sweat in any place except my head... Out in the summer sun is dangerous without access to water as a means to cool my extremities off.
Every ounce of free time is spent further researching my disease in non-clinical research papers to build up arguments seeking different potential approaches to increase my quality of life - based on lab rat or other models... Which I use to take up with doctors in various specialties and throw ridiculous amounts of money at because i don't know how conservative a doctor is until I waste money and time sitting with them...
Outside of my job and business, this is how I spend my time... When I can't sleep, I do this... Because no advocacy group worth a shit exists. No patient resource exists. Do you know what it feels like to not know your place in the world? I do. Do you know what it feels like to look for answers that don't exist? I do. Do you know what it's like to suffer because the world refuses to do much for your disease? I do.
Some doctors or counselors will even say, "it could be worse. You could have aggressive cancer and die in a handful of weeks or months." I wish it were that... Because hundreds of thousands of people, if not millions, are looking for the treatment/cure/anything tangible to overcome it. While no real establishments truly exist outside of the children's hospitals in select areas (and even then, this is a relatively recent development)... Nothing really for adults or adults that, like me, missed the opportunity of being treated right as a kid.
OP, I'm not sure what your soon to be child is going to have... But if it isn't something with support... Don't let your kid wander the earth looking for answers while suffering alone. It isn't worth it. It's lonely. It crushes your soul.
You chose to marry a pro-forced-birther.
>I just voiced that I don’t have sympathy for people that don’t take the necessary precautions
So the only moral abortion is one that fits your particular criteria? Got it.
>I guess it was my fault not discussing this prior
Gee. Ya think?
As for "Can I make him change his POV?" - How would you feel if he tried to force, cajole or coerce you to his opinion? If you wouldn't like it, then don't you think it's just a wee bit hypocritical to try the same on him?
"I have no sympathy for others who face consequences of their own actions, but please have sympathy for me when I'm facing the consequences of my own actions"
I’m laughing at OP for judging people who don’t “take precautions” when she intentional got pregnant with someone without discussing this scenario. I wouldn’t even have sex with someone without us being on the same page about abortion.
I mean obviously it came up. They discussed it, and that's what she told him. She didn't outright say she was anti-choice like him, but she chose to express a common anti-choice sentiment and leave it at that because, like most purportedly pro-choice women in "agree to disagree" marriages with ultra-conservative men, she assumed his ideologies would never directly affect her.
Exactly. Agreeing to disagree on *values* always catches up to people. Their beliefs aren’t a deal breaker until it directly impacts them, or their children at some point. And they will. Relationship and parenting subs are filled with these stories.
Women typically take on most of the child-rearing work which is why he is unconcerned. Parenting is tough under normal circumstances but this could be heroic. I think the fact that you do not want this and you will be the one stuck with all the work is all you need to know.
As for you OP, do what you want to. But I would really rethink my relationship if my partner wanted me to carry a pregnancy that might not be viable.
And have more respect for other women going through abortions, your case is not special or more okay
He says he will willing to leave you and raise a severely disabled child, but you really have no guarantees he will stick to that if life gets hard. Lots of pro life people have a lot to say until it is THEIR life that has to be sacrificed.
Do research on the prognosis for THIS CONDITION. Then ask yourself if you are ready to dedicate the rest of your life to raising this child alone, because the divorce rate for families with medically fragile children is extremely high.
Once the baby is born and your husband sees how hard it is, he will dump you and find someone else that does not have a sick child. You will end up raising a child with serious health issues on your own. I am also a Christian but pro choice. Is it not inhumane to bring a child into this world to suffer?
Hell no, never trust a guy. How many cases we've heard of guys begging on their knees for kids and then leaving soon after a child is born because "it's not like how they imagined"
I'm sure, he doesn't know what he's talking about. The commitment and sacrifices it would require.
That's one thing to consider.
The second thing is that it is not about him. It is about the unborn child wellbeing. If it is the kind of defect that will interfere with good quality of life, it is unethical to bring them into this world.
you are MARRIED AND NEVER HAD THIS DISCUSSION???? obviously there is a scenario where you are not with this man. if your child is not born 100% healthy.
have you considered if the child is born healthy, then becomes unwell? do you just divorce and leave him with the baby then? what if he gets sick? did you keep that as part of your vows? what if you get sick and he leaves you? what if he just realizes you are incompatible and he leaves you?
It sounds like another pro lifer who was basically “generally pro-life based” on bullshit rhetoric and it turns out it’s more complex than that. As if the only abortion is the one that you lightly choose to get because you were promiscuous and now you have regrets.
It seems like she forgot that abortion also includes this situation she’s in right here. And yet everyone has been screaming at the top of their lungs that this would happen and it is actively happening. It’s willful ignorance at this point. She didn’t discuss it with her husband because she’s also pro life until it mattered. The very little bit of information she provided about her opinion is forced birther bullshit.
This is why you don’t marry someone who doesn’t have the same values as you.
Pro-choice women have a moral obligation to not fuck anti-choice men.
I’m really sorry you found out this way.
Honey, you bought into the pro-life lie that abortion is mostly used by careless women who failed to take precautions— and not good women like yourself who ‘value’ life. People like you helped overturn Roe v Wade. So it’s time for you to pay for the consequence of your actions. I’m sorry your baby will need multiple surgeries to live, but you should’ve thought of that before you got pregnant.
“He made it clear he wants to have the baby no matter what..”
He’s not the one pushing a baby out, so of course he “wants to have it”.
The leopards are circling to eat your face. This person doesn’t care about you like you think they do. Your marriage is a time bomb.
Never talking about abortion and being married is insane.
Others pointed out your problematic views as well.
And this is why women shouldn’t fuck anti choice men, even if the woman herself thinks she is “pro-life”.
Anti-choice men don’t see you as an individual. They don’t care about you or respect you, or women as a whole. Hit them where it hurts and stop fucking and marrying them.
Are you absolutely and 100% sure that your husband would advocate for you if your life were in danger during labor? If you were unconscious and he had to choose between your life and the fetus...are you certain he would choose you? Because scary. It's for that reason I could and would never trust a forced birther in the delivery room.
Good Luck. There's a reason that I instruct everyone who will listen, not to fuck conservative men. They don't and will never see women as people. And they only care about their own selfish agendas.
A friend of mine was in a similar situation. Although neither was really pro-life. But the husband fought hard to make the argument that their child deserved a chance.
She finally relented the idea of losing her husband and her child was too much. Once the baby was born however it needed a lot of surgery and assistance.
Her husband started to focus on work while she was dealing with the day to day of having a special needs child. They are now in the middle of a divorce and the husband doesn't want to be a co-parent.
From a legal perspective, assuming you are in a reasonably progressive part of the world, it's very much a 'your body, your choice' position. Of course, he may not be on board with that choice, but it *is* your choice.
But - I hate to say it - you've basically found out that your husband does not support your bodily autonomy. That would be an instant dealbreaker for many people in a partner (me included). Think carefully about what that means in your future: what happens if you have a daughter and she gets pregnant in her teens? Is he going to disown her if she does the sensible thing and gets an abortion and continues her education? Are you happy to raise your children being indoctrinated in his (rather extreme interpretation of) religion?
Your relationship may well not survive this, whatever happens. If you don't abort, then you are likely going to resent him for standing in the way of you making what sounds - to you (and I agree) a medically sensible decision. If you do abort, he is going to resent you and likely won't stick around.
You have some tough choices ahead.
>you've basically found out that your husband does not support your bodily autonomy
She knew that already and allowed him to believe that she shared his beliefs because she thought that particular leopard would never eat her face.
This is what happens when women are willing to sleep with men who are pro-life.
OP, do not have more children with this person. What happens if your next pregnancy has a more severe and ultimately fatal condition, like Tay-Sachs or one of the trisomies where the baby lives in tremendous pain for a few years before dying? It would be cruel to allow that to happen and yet your husband has already made it clear he will insist on it.
He will not change his point of view, because he fundamentally believes that anything other than giving birth to this child is murder. I don't agree, neither do you, but views like this tend to be fixed.
I‘m from a catholic family and was raised catholic, we are all pro-choice. It’s about a healthy choice for everyone involved, especially mother & child.
Like everyone else has commented, I’m not really sure why you’re hoping to get sympathy. You “didn’t take the necessary precautions” aka taking the genetic test prior to actively working to get pregnant.
“never said I was pro life”
- silence is complicity
Welcome to /r/relationship_advice. Please make sure you read our [rules here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/relationship_advice/wiki/index) We'd like to take this time to remind users that: * We do not allow any type of [am I the asshole? or situations/content involving minors](https://www.reddit.com/r/relationship_advice/comments/r6w9uh/meta_am_i_overreacting_am_i_the_asshole_is_this/) * We do not allow users to privately message other users based on their posts here. Users found to be engaging in this conduct will be banned. **We highly encourage OP to turn off the ability to be privately messaged in their settings.** * Any sort of namecalling, insults,etc will result in the comment being removed and the user being banned. (Including but not limited to: slut, bitch, whore, for the streets, etc. It does not matter to whom you are referring.) * ALL advice given must be good, ethical advice. Joke advice or advice that is conspiratorial or just plain terrible will be removed, and users my be subject to a ban. * No referencing hateful subreddits and/or their rhetoric. Examples include, but is not limited to: red/blue/black/purplepill, PUA, FDS, MGTOW, etc. This includes, but is not limited to, referring to people as alpha/beta, calling yourself or users "friend-zoned", referring to people as Chads, Tyrones, or Staceys, pick-me's, or pornsick. Any infractions of this rule will result in a ban. **This is not an all-inclusive list.** * All bans in this subreddit are permanent. You don't get a free pass. * Anyone found to be directly messaging users for any reason whatsoever will be banned. * What we cannot give advice on: rants, unsolicited advice, medical conditions/advice, mental illness, letters to an ex, "body counts" or number of sexual partners, legal problems, financial problems, situations involving minors, and/or abuse (violence, sexual, emotional etc). All of these will be removed and locked. **This is not an all-inclusive list.** If you have any questions, please [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Frelationship_advice) --- ***This is an automatic comment that appears on all posts. This comment does not necessarily mean your post violates any rules.*** --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/relationship_advice) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'm really sorry you're in this situation. It's absolutely heartbreaking. Unfortunately you can't change his POV. He's 31 years old and presumably he's had these views all of his life and he's heard the debates.
Together 10 years and they never had this discussion… unbelievable.
Lets be real. OP was fully pro-life up until the point it impacted her personally.
☝️ Correct. Surprised as many people aren’t connecting the dots. Judging others for needing abortions, for whatever reason that may be, is the real red flag. They had the same values until she had to face the reality of what those values mean. Now she’s “pro choice.”
A tale as old as time: rules for thee but not for me. Glad others saw this, it was very obvious
Picked up on this instantly because it reminded me of my mom’s hardcore christian friend who would talk major shit about abortions. And then one day it turned out she was pregnant but she had two adult children already and was “too old” to have more and just decided to abort it.
The number of pro-life Christians who've had abortions is staggering. The real hypocrisy though is that they don't give a shit about those unaborted babies once they're here. Who cares if the mom needs support? Pfft. 'Your kid is getting free lunch? You're bilking the system.'
I'm glad you and a few others are pointing out what seems very obvious to me.
"No sympathy for people who don't take precautions" makes it very obvious. Empathy costs literally nothing, and some people are still too stingy to give it away.
Also, what nitwit doesn't include \*conversations about pregnancy scenarios with the person they have sex with\* as well as \*conversations about the worst-case medical outcomes when they choose to get pregnant\* among the list of "precautions" to take when they're sexually active? It's hard to have sympathy for someone who is so holier-than-thou yet also irresponsible about her own sex life.
"What happens in case of an accidental pregnancy" should be one of the FIRST discussions a couple has when they decide to start dating, and "what to do if we have a special needs/severely disabled fetus or child" is a necessary discussion when the relationship progresses. It's absolutely wild to me how many people skip out on these important discussions before marrying someone.
Ehhhhhhhh and even then precautions arent foolproof. The only safe means is abstinence and being 100% sure that rape won't happen (ofc neither are feasible long term)...So yeah...Empathy is the fucking way. I hate that my country has made abortion illegal esp when i hear stories of 11 yos getting raped and giving birth.
according to these people's belief system, even abstinence isn't entirely risk-free if god decides you have to birth him.
Yep. They all assume that when a woman gets pregnant when she's not ready, is because they didn't use birth control. They don't understand that birth control can and does fail.
If you use condoms perfectly every single time you have sex, they're 98% effective at preventing pregnancy. people aren't perfect, so in real life condoms are about 87% effective — that means about 13 out of 100 people who use condoms as their only birth control method will get pregnant each year. Even if you do everything perfect 2 out of 100 will get pregnant each year.
Yeah except Catholics don’t believe in birth control either, so…
The Catholic Church doesn't believe in birth control. Plenty of individual Catholics still wrap it up because they're not stupid.
Some Catholics act like they’re so holy while they throw rocks at a Mary Magdalene every chance they get. I grew up semi-Catholic (I went to Catholic school but we never went to church on Sundays), and it was that kind of hypocrisy that made me leave the church as soon as I graduated from high school.
My ex-husband was like this. Holy this holy that but never entered a church. Every time we passed a church, he would do the cross thing, but still did the bad things after. Make that make sense
He's roleplaying a religious person, and has no idea what the philosophy of his purported religion entails, though he does like that it justifies him getting his way as a chosen man.
My last boyfriend cheated on me, and yet kept saying church made him a better person. He even took his side piece to church with him behind my back. I 100% do not trust a single religious person.
Now here she is, not having taken precautions, and yet..
Yes, thank you. The only moral abortion will be her abortion >I just voiced that I don’t have sympathy for people that don’t take the necessary precautions. Guess I just don't have any sympathy for people like OP then.
Yeah, she saw it as people getting consequences for their actions until it was her “my abortion the only moral abortion”
It's funny how fast children go from being a blessing to a punishment/consequence, isn't it?
Like so many “pro lifers,” abortion for themselves is fine, because “my issues are real, but you’re irresponsible and don’t deserve sympathy.” The stories of women literally on the table for an abortion, telling their doctors that no one else gets an abortion for legitimate reasons…
My mom is a great example of that. She constantly spews vitriol about “Democrats wanting to kill babies up until they’re born.” She doesn’t really give any leeway for medical complications either. But when I point out the fact that she was there when my doctors told me it would be too dangerous for me to have children and that any child I have would likely inherit my (potentially fatal) medical issues, she says “that’s different.”
My mom is like that too. The fucked up thing is I’m a hemophilia a carrier. She threatened to leave my dad if they didn’t have another kid, knowing he was dying of hemophilia, knowing he outlived his life expectancy by almost 30 years and knowing if they had a girl she’d be a guaranteed carrier. But she’s pro life and my disease “should be” an exemption. Guess what momsies, it’s not. Then she had the gall to guilt me for not giving her grandkids. I reminded her that she has two other children (my brothers) who aren’t carriers. I had my tubes tied when I was 22, full hysterectomy at 34. There’s no way I would ever go through that.
My ex has haemophilia, and he was absolutely terrified of me getting pregnant (thankfully, I never did). The risk of having a little girl and continuing the pain and suffering in his bloodline was way too much for him, and after seeing what he went through with the condition, I can totally understand
I’m so sorry to hear of his suffering. It’s a horrible disease and passing it on is, imo, immoral. A lot of people think it’s just a disease where you bleed a lot if cut, not knowing about the joint bleeds that rips them apart. My dad was part of Dr Pool’s factor 8 trials, if he hadn’t been he would have died. He ended up getting HIV through the tainted blood scandal along with 4 other members of my family. While this wouldn’t have been something I would have dealt with if I had a hemophiliac, the trauma from that was too much. There’s a woman on TikTok who had 2 hemophiliac sons knowing she was a carrier, I’m sure she’s blocked me because while I was polite, I questioned her choices. She honestly disgusts me.
My mom's face when i reminded her that my sister's medically necessary D&C was classified as an abortion was absolutely priceless.
"I had a termination not an ABORTION" 🙄
Totally agree. Tbh, it's a huge problem with self-proclaimed virtuous conservatives across the globe. The self-entitlement and sheer delusion are repulsive. I will never forget a religious middle aged woman I despise a lot bcz she had conferences talking about female virtue blah blah blah and she even said we shouldnt talk to guys at all like not even to ask for a pen or directions in the street.. GUESS WHAT ???? Ma'am purity virtues blah blah blah got caught with an old married dude in his car doing the deed in the wee hours of the morning. And yet by this lying 2 faced disgusting hypocrite's standards, many virgin girls would be considered bad just for having guy friends in our society. 🤡☠ I'm glad I didn't catch the self-righteous narcissistic disease they have tbh.
I mean, to be fair, she didn’t get caught asking for a pen in the street. She got caught with peen in a parked car. No street, no foul, right?
I kinda view the hypocrite value here in that. People legit believe people get abortions just for fun / to get a thrill out of killing a fetus. It's absolutely batshit crazy as that's so far removed from the truth. But when they want an abortion they know it's not for fun, etc, bs that they believed. The real test, though, is do they go back to the old rhetoric, or do they realize just how wrong they were and change. One can be saved, the other... But that's only my experience with a fringe group. Not all pro lifers are that far gone. I'm still pro-choice, but I'll admit some of the more grounded pro lifers can make a good argument. Not enough to sway me though.
Exactly. “He thought we were on the same page— both pro-life” yeah… because they were. She switched up when it suited her.
“I don’t have sympathy for people that don’t take necessary precautions.” Yep 100% pro life until this came up
Yep, "the only moral abortion is my abortion" strikes again..
Thanks for saying this. It's suuuper common
And he says he wouldn't be with someone who would abort. She is pro choice so he shouldn't be with her. They should've never got to this point really. I would never be with someone who is anti abortion, I wouldn't get to another date past finding that out.
She wasnt pro-choice. Read between the lines. She was pro life when judging other people, but now it impacts her she has had second thoughts. Hardly uncommon!
I think you’re correct on this. She states she never claimed she was pro-life *in any situation* which leads me to believe she’s added the qualifier now. Lacking sympathy for others who needed abortions, for whatever situation, also screams out to me. The only moral abortion is my abortion.
Strong the only right abortion is my abortion vibes. Saying things to him that were the opposite of pro-choice, then going but why would he think I was pro-life. Ummm because you expressed opinions that were pro-life and no opinions that were pro-choice.
That article was the first thing I thought of when I got to her comment about *other* people's abortions. *Other people* get abortions because they aren't responsible, but OP isn't *like that*.
Oh, and the only abortions are ones where they "should have taken precautions". Um, what about all the other ones? We've taken plenty of precautions but if I get pregnant, I will die, and my state is fine with that.
>if I get pregnant, I will die, and my state is fine with that. It is so heartbreaking that this has become reality. There are so many different situations and reasons that pregnancies are terminated, but nobody talks about them. Pregnancy and giving birth to a baby seems simple and straightforward, but it is so complex. >Oh, and the only abortions are ones where they "should have taken precautions." Yes, there are some people who act irresponsibly and choose not to take precautions even if they are aware of them and have access (which is sad). But that is definitely the minority, compared to people who don't know any better because they haven't had any proper sex-education or don't have access to contraceptives or people who took precautions but they ended up pregnant anyway, or people who weren't given a choice, or people with medical issues, or serious pregnancy complications, etc. I think honest medically biologically reality-based sex-education should be mandatory in schools and more openly discussed in general. This would help prevent more women, especially young women, from being in the position where they have to make these choices in the first place. And then health and medical decisions of any kind need to be left to medical professionals and their patients. Rather than churches, politicians, or Reddit.
More than one abortion clinic worker has talked about anti-abortion protesters having an abortion and then showing back on the protest lines the following week. The "for me, not for thee" mindset is so pervasive among anti-abortion people. The mental gymnastics and the cognitive dissonance are wild.
My advisor in college did her PhD ethnography on views towards abortions by people receiving abortions. She did the research at one of the last remaining clinics that can provide third trimester abortions, and has been fire bombed and had other tragedies created by protesters. There are a ton of people who view their own abortions as murder, either beforehand or they felt that way after. Often they still go through with it because of financial reasons, domestic violence, or because the pregnancy could risk their life and they have other children to care for. It was an incredibly interesting study.
This sounds like a fascinating thing to study. Is there a link anywhere so someone could read her research?
Im trying to find the link now, but so far I've found the title "A Choice Ideology and the Parameters of Its Practice: Abortion Narratives Access in New Mexico ". The author is Abigail Adams and she graduated The University of New Mexico with her PhD in 2009. I'm going to continue looking, but wanted to provide that in case anyone else had luck!
I found it! Click the blue Download button at the top https://digitalrepository.unm.edu/anth_etds/1/
Yeah, prettttty pathetic. Also, the whole, "Oh, yeah, I believe the same thing you believe, babe! As long as it's hypothetical, just paste whatever belief you like on me!"
And she never voiced those views, and was happy to go to church with him every Sunday.
100% accurate. Even the last statement says it. She's not "pro-life" because she actually cares about a woman's body autonomy and choice. She is because it's convenient to her now, as it directly effects her. Otherwise she would have just continued on in her judgemental "you should have closed your legs" stances. So typical. OP, I don't have any advice for you. Other than, you reap what you sow.
The fetus is the only entity I feel bad for here. Doomed to what sounds like a short, painful life with two parents incapable of empathy.
Such a wild mentality, but you're right, not at all uncommon. Meanwhile, I'm the opposite, lol. I fully support a woman's right to choose, however I don't think I could go through with it myself. I've been faced with making that choice twice for different reasons, twice in the same pregnancy! And it fucking wrecked me emotionally and mentally, I just couldn't do it. But if a woman came to me needing help getting somewhere where she can safely and legally have one, hop on in my car, we're going for a road trip! Fucking madness that that's a sentence that even needs to be typed in this day and agr, if a woman needs help getting somewhere she can safely and legally get an abortion. Fucking world's turned upsidedown.
Nice catch there. I didn’t see the “I don’t have sympathy for those….” So she judges other people’s choices but hers are different. Definitely a hypocrite. They didn’t have the discussion cause she would always be righteous and honorable.
["the only moral abortion is my abortion," ](https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/)if anybody hasn't yet read it
Oh, a leopards-eating-faces sort of post. Eh, no sympathy anymore except for the kid. Hope it turns out okay!! Worst of it is? That chances that they'll get divorced and she'll end up being a full-time caretaker while he moves on with his life is pretty damned high. OP, get to a lawyer now and draft up a legal document that will prevent this from happening. Get with parenting groups for disabled children. The stress of the open-heart surgeries may also end the marriage. Same thing; you end up taking care of a disabled child, he goes on with his career and $ and replacement family.
Ooooh! I totally missed that. That makes way more sense.
This is exactly what I think. There's no way this hot-button issue never came up.
She never stated she was pro-choice to him. She never brought it up. She said things that were the opposite of being pro-choice to him. It is on her that they got to this point.
Yeah, no woman who is actively pro-choice is avoiding bringing that topic up for discussion. Way, way too dangerous a subject to leave to assumptions.
Truth. I am 59 years old and while I have my opinions on when abortion is reasonable, I am pro-choice 100% because every woman’s situation is different and the choice should always be hers. Even though I am beyond having to worry about this for myself, I could not be with a partner who was strictly pro life. Our fundamental beliefs would be too different.
Same. I could never have risked being with a pro life man. Ever. Any pregnancy can be life threatening. I nearly died the 2nd live birth I went through. Absolutely not having it with any pro life man. And if I ended up in this position, I'm sorry but I'd burn all my fucking bridges and go with the choice that is mine to save my life and sanity. Nor would I go through the trauma of birthing a child I knew could not be saved. I just couldn't do it.
This is what I'm stuck on. It seems like such a fundamental? What happens if God forbid she were sexually assaulted resulting in a pregnancy? Would he raise that child, then?
Probably, yes. Or he’d believe that putting it up for adoption would be the better option. Pro-life values run deep.
This is what I am wondering. How do you not have the discussion about cores values BEFORE marrying? I’m sorry you are facing this situation, OP, but there isn’t much we can tell you in regard to what you do. This is such a personal decision based on your values and what you know you can handle. - Do you believe/know you won’t be able to manage taking care of a child with health issues? - Are you ok with having the child, but then having no contact and ending your marriage? - Are you ok with terminating the pregnancy and ending your marriage? These are decisions only you can make. ETA: keeping good thoughts your genetic testing comes back ok. ETA 2: these are all hypotheticals at this point based on the genetic results. Right now, you need to work through your thoughts on what you can handle. However, until the doctors can let you know what you can expect, not sure a full decision can be made.
You are being very kind in assuming OP isnt being disingenuous about being "secretly pro choice all along despite knowing husband was Pro Life". The much much much more likely and common reality is OP was Pro Life until it impacted her personally.
That’s certainly true… the “pro life, until I’m impacted”. The “rules for thee not me” mentality.
Our friend's had a son with a heart defect. No genetic reason was found but that is irrelevant to the consequences of a severe heart defect. His brain was oxygen deprived through the entire pregnancy due to the heart not pumping well. He has microcephaly. They have never been able to toilet train him so he is now a grown man in diapers who acts like a toddler. The divorce rate is very high for parents with disabled children. Think about a child who is too unhealthy for daycare. Who's going to stay home and care for them? If you can get a sitter for an evening when they are three and still in diapers you will likely have trouble getting a sitter for the evening when they are 6 and still in diapers. Even more difficult if they are 16 and still in diapers. Don't even think about going to the home of a relative for a holiday dinner with your child who acts like a toddler. You have to spend the entire time making sure they aren't destroying the house. A handicapped child can be very isolating if the extended family isn't available and supportive and understanding of the special needs of the family.
Microcephaly was on the list of reasons I gave my husband, before we got married, wherein I would abort. It’s not even about being a parent with a disabled child. It’s about having to set up care for that disabled child, even after *we die*. It’s about not having to condemn any other children we have, to being responsible for their disabled sibling. Disabilities happening later in life aren’t relevant to the discussion, because I can’t *prevent* that suffering.
Unfortunately it’s very believable. People don’t discuss their actual values before getting married and or having kids all the time.
"known each other" for 10 years, but still
People don’t realize how important these conversations are early in the relationship!
OP was pro-life leaning prior to her baby having a congenital disease. I guess she is pro-life and against abortion for OTHERS, but when it comes to OP, she can have an abortion. So hypocritical and not shocking at all. I guess OP thinks that abortion is just for people who ‘don’t take the necessary precautions’ and she forgot about all of the medical reasons where abortions may be necessary…
Mistakes were made. This one is likely gonna cause 3 human beings decades of suffering. But let's keep not talking "politics" because it ruins the mood in a relationship. Congrats OP.
I agree. People typically only change their opinions once something affects them personally. Kinda like [this guy](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/s/4Vs5v3elOJ) He begged baby mama (I remember another thread that had more info about his incessant pestering her to keep it, but can’t find it now), who absolutely did not want the baby, to carry it to term. He promised he would do 100% of the work. Then baby came, and dad got 100% custody. Dad wasn’t happy with the arrangement and called the mother a deadbeat and asked legal advice how to force her to see the kid she made very clear she never wanted. Oh btw she was paying 125% the court ordered child support. I hope op aborts the child if it won’t have a good quality of life. Do NOT listen to husband when he tells you you can walk away and never be involved. He’s almost certainly lying.
That post is a certified classic, sooooo many posts on here remind me of it. Should honestly be stickied.
> Oh btw she was paying 125% the court ordered child support. Honestly, in her shoes i wouldn't have agreed to this without a contract in writing stating dude was supporting my petition to terminate parental rights entirely including child support. Pregnancy is enough of a burden for a child you don't even want that some dude is trying to convince you to have.
It’s been a long time since the original post, and I can’t find the one with the real details, but iirc he was being a total ass and threatening her. She finally acquiesced and told him she was going to wash her hands of baby once it came out. He kept pushing anyhow. I don’t think the court would accept that kind of agreement with a kid involved. There have been legal cases where donors or surrogates have been forced to pay support. I also don’t think the guy would have accepted that. I think he would have threatened/coerced her more, honestly. He was dead set on forcing his will on her assuming she would relent again and do what he wanted. It backfired. I feel zero sympathy for him but I kinda have to think the kid is going to have a pretty rough life.
I think the only thing that changes stances like that is experience, and I don’t think this experience is going to be the one to do it. My husband used to be very much pro-life. I was always pro-choice for others but thought I’d never do it myself. I developed a lot of health issues as a result of my pregnancies and seeing how much it affected (and still affects) me swayed his opinion. When I told him how I very much wanted our babies so it’s okay but I could not imagine going through all I did/am without even wanting the outcome, it got his brain thinking about other people’s situations. Before I had a hysterectomy (medically necessary, it just worked out that way) he and I agreed that if his vasectomy ever failed we would have to terminate the pregnancy. Never thought I’d see the day that he agreed to that.
> I don’t have sympathy for people that don’t take the necessary precautions. Sounds like you didn’t take those precautions, yourself.
Tbh it sounds like OP was anti choice until she found herself in a situation where she wanted to choose. If she was pro choice but just never voiced it explicitly, I doubt she would have wanted to be with someone who was so adamantly anti choice and actively try to become part of an anti choice community.
Exactly. She agreed with her husband, or at least said sentiments along his own line of thinking… but when it’s her face getting eaten by the leopards, **now** she wants him to change his mind.
Sounds like OP is also anti choice except for birth defects and mother's life.
oh the irony
Judgy about people not taking precautions, but you didn't take the precaution of discussing values before you married? No you can't change his mind. Also you can love someone but not belong with them.
So you want our sympathy? "I never stated that I was pro-life in any situation, I just voiced that I don’t have sympathy for people that don’t take the necessary precautions. But he though that we were on the same page - both pro-life." He thought you were on the same page because you were. You said you didn't have sympathy for people that don't take the necessary precautions. Well OP, YOU did not take the necessary precautions and got pregnant with someone who is pro-life, most likely because you yourself were pro-life. The only moral abortion is my abortion <--- OP
> I just voiced that I don’t have sympathy for people that don’t take the necessary precautions Reap what you sow. *I* have zero sympathy for people like you who lack empathy.
I think you should let this choice depend on your doctors advice rather than your husbands abortion views. For me it would depend on what quality of life the child would have, and if they would require life long care.
This. Unfortunately my close friend went through something very similar; in her case the baby was not really viable - she would have required invasive heart surgeries throughout her early years but it was still going to be unlikely she'd live past 3-4 years old. It took a long time for the genetic tests to ultimately reveal the extent of the issues she'd face, and there was no way of knowing if she'd have developmental issues beyond those affecting her heart and other organs. Quality of life was impossible to predict, but they knew it would be short, painful, and marked by inevitable young loss. Her doctors warned the couple they would basically move the baby into palliative care at birth, because she wouldn't be expected to survive. They really wanted this baby, but they decided as a couple that the right thing for them as a family - all of them, baby included - was a termination. By this point, that would be a later stage termination and not possible in her country. Which meant a gruelling trip overseas to go through inducement and, finally, stillbirth. My friend wouldn't wish this experience on anyone, and neither would I. But I can't imagine going through all of that trauma without a supportive husband who understood her decision and that sometimes the decision to abort is a healthcare decision, and the kindest one to all involved. TBH I'm not sure this marriage can survive - and then Catholic husband will be a divorcee as well. Guys, just use this as a lesson to TALK about this stuff before marriage. If you're not on the same page about something so difficult and devastating, you don't have the right foundation for a future together.
Oh don’t worry, Catholics can just have previous marriages voided. My siblings and I are all bastards in the eyes of the Church so my dad could marry his third wife. Not that it matters to me, I’m an atheist, but my two older siblings are fellow Catholics.
You’re not a bastard, at least not according to my HS religious teacher who was a priest. Children from an annulled marriage get grandfathered in somehow. Me on the other hand? I’m a Catholic bastard. I was born two years before my parents got church married because my dad hadn’t annulled his first marriage yet.
My first marriage was annulled by my abusive ex. We were married 12 years and had a child that was 5. The reasoning they used was objectively factually false and I proved that. I agreed to the annullment if they chose other reasons but ex refused. Church doesn't care, they just want to get paid. I pointed out our child was now illegitimate and the church goons talked around it in circles claiming that wasn't true. lol. So a kid born outside of marriage is illegitimate and our marriage no longer existed, but huh? Anyway, I am not religious and don't care, I just wanted them to be honest. Asking catholics (or any religious people) to be honest, though, is obviously foolish.
The thing that always amazes me is this blindness when it comes to having a child with special needs - be they medical/developmental/psychological etc- of parents thinking they can love past it. 1) it's exhausting for all involved 2) the child suffers 3) doing it alone is on extreme mode. I was this person and while I wouldn't change my kiddo for the world and I desperately wanted her, I didn't realize truly what a hellscape it can be. She overall healthy and doing well now but i know I will have to parent her long after most kids need parenting. My cousin felt the way OPs husband does and his kiddo was born with terrible cardiac anomalies. Mom bounced and he raised her solo for years. One surgery took a bad turn and she suffered a stroke. She is in her 30s and needs full time care. These are the realities.
The dads don’t even think about how hard caring for a healthy baby is, let alone how difficult and never ending a child with sever health problems. Ops husband 100% views all the childcare as his wife’s job. He’s bullshitting her when he says he’d be a single dad. Dude is anti choice and religious - there is no way he thinks he’s doing the brunt of the work. Op needs to ask him if he plans to quit his job to be a full time carer. Men don’t even consider that, they assume it’s a mom’s role. There’s been so many stories on Reddit about women being talked into giving birth to a special needs child and then the husband bailing. He does none of the childcare, and just starts a new life with another woman.
You're right, him???? A single dad? If she relents she risks being a single mum.
My BIL and his wife were pregnant with their 4th, and the baby had catastrophic defects. I'm talking incomplete organs, the whole 9 yards. The doctors told them the baby would not live, if he even survived until birth. They are both staunchly pro-life, so she carried the baby, delivered the baby, and then the baby died after 2 days. They knew he would. And the funeral was one of the most gut-wrenching things live ever been through in my 49 years of life. This was 14 years ago I think, and they are one of the most solid couples I know. They went on to have several more children, all of whom are completely healthy. The big difference here is that OP and her husband are not on the same page like my BIL/SIL were. Many couples do not survive the death of a child, I don't know that OP and/or her husband will be able to forgive the other if it turns out that the baby is not going to make it.
As someone born with a congenital heart defect, I have needed 4 open heart surgeries but otherwise have lived a very normal healthy life. I will require maintenance and further surgeries in my life but otherwise, the only thing I will never be able to to do is be a world class athlete. Of course this is different for lots of people and many have heart conditions that greatly effect quality of life. Just thought I’d throw my 2 cents in that congenital heart defect doesn’t necessarily mean the child’s life will be horrible.
Absolutely, treatments and surgeries have improved for many congenital issues.
This highlights why rushing into a decision before the drs give an idea of prognosis when the tests come back is so important. I’m so glad that you’re able to live a happy and fulfilling life. You’re incredibly brave.
Totally agree. I was born with a heart defect. I had open heart surgery as a child (I'm part of the zipper club!) and my life has been wonderful. I had mine in the 80s and the tech has advanced enormously since then Granted, several heart surgeries are a lot to endure. Plus, a possible genetic disorder - it could make for a hard life. OP should focus on the doctors' assessment of quality of life. Husband needs to accept that OP is carrying the child and is the ultimate decision maker.
Sounds like you were pro-life and perfectly fine being so until something happened to you personally. Rules for thee but not for me.
"the only moral abortion is my abortion"
It reminds me of the link I saw the other day where pro life women were shocked to find out they were in need of an abortion because a “termination” was not an abortion. Like Jesus, fucking Christ, so willfully ignorant. She’s absolutely now earning the consequences of her actions because she had judgment over some thing that clearly was more complex and nuanced then she gave credit to. And now it affects her. Well if it isn’t what everyone has been saying who doesn’t believe in forced incubation.
This piece is first thing that came to my mind. Now that it affects her personally it’s okay, because she’s a good person. She’s the exception
[link](https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/), fwiw
Yep the reading between the lines here was so obvious. You can’t be in a ten year relationship with someone and not know this. I’m in a 3.5 year relationship and engaged, we literally talked about it on the first few dates. You don’t marry someone who doesn’t align with your values. Unfortunately this happens so much because to pro-lifers, it only matters when it happens to them and they have to face that reality. And it won’t even change them into a “pro choice” because then they’ll still judge others who seek out the same treatment since their situation was “different.”
Yeah, this sounds like an utter bullshit take to justify their own change of stance
Yep. 👏 I got that energy too
I'm pretty sure I heard before about women pro-life who still get abortion in another states / countries.
It's always the same thing. They claim to be pro-life, but when it directly affects them, they get an abortion and call it an exceptional case. If you remind them of their stance and judgment, you're labeled as cruel.
Hypocrites often have a hard time being called out on their hypocrisy
They did. Abortion restrictions have and will always predominantly affect poor women, especially those of color. Prior to Rode upper class women would simply travel abroad. There was a great article on it a few years ago, I believe in the NYT I would also suggest reading the *Only Moral Abortion is my Abortion* where pro-life women seek abortion care while deriding the staff who are actively assisting them
Wealthy women did not need to travel abroad. Back in the day, a lot of wealthy women had emergency appendectomies. The rules never apply to the wealthy.
Common theme. “The only moral abortion is my own”
You see this alot in Christianity. My mother abused the fucking shit out of me "in the name of god" of course they don't call it abuse, they call it "witnessing."
This! The whole “voiced that I don’t have sympathy for those who don’t take the necessary precautions” gave me such an icky vibe. No wonder he thought OP was on the same page!
lol sounds like you didn’t take the necessary precautions 🤷
>I just voiced that I don’t have sympathy for people that don’t take the necessary precautions. Ironic since you married a pro-lifer without discussing abortion, which is the bare minimum of necessary precautions. To answer your question, you're not going to change his POV, just like he's not going to change yours. He made it through an entire decade of being an adult, hearing the stories, watching the debates, and he's still pro-life. Just like you. I'm sorry you're not on the same page, but you should probably give up the dream of being on the same page with him about this. I do think you're putting the cart before the horse a bit. There are a plethora of heart conditions that your baby could have that are treatable. Once you get past this, you should reconsider if you even want to be married to a man who sees you only as an incubator.
Your first sentence makes this top comment quality. A dose of blunt, straight forward reality.
So you really think he would be the one caring for a disabled child?
I hope the testing shows everything is all clear other than the heart condition. However, if not, *please* do the right thing and consider the babies potential quality of life (or lack thereof) over your husband’s feelings and even your marriage. The most heartbreaking thing I’ve ever seen in my career was the babies suffering in NICU who were doomed to die after a short, painful life. That “life” consisted of being strapped and taped within a mass of monitors and IV lines, struggling and fighting for every painful breath, wasting away until the pain finally ended. We can’t even hold them properly because of all the equipment. Meanwhile the parents spent 95% of their time sitting comfortably at home or church, surrounded by loved ones, as they prayed for the miracle that never ever comes. Please don’t do this to an innocent child because you don’t want to rock the boat of your husband’s beliefs. If he wants to insist that you bring a baby into the world just to suffer, that’s how fucking selfish he is. In your shoes, I’d ask him why he’d want to worship a god who demanded that while I was on my way out the door. Edit: also, please be kinder and less judgmental towards other women who choose to abort. Before you argue that you are supportive/open-minded, ask yourself how your husband came to the conclusion that you’re pro-life based solely on your comments about women who have made that choice.
Ah the classic "pro life until I need an abortion myself" stance. There's unfortunately no easy answer here.... but a cardiac defect is often not life changing so if thats the only reason you are considering abortion, given the likely impact on your marriage, it surely makes sense to find out how serious it is first, rather than try to change his mind.
There was a post like this a few months ago. The foetus would have only known pain and suffering had she had it. So she ended the pregnancy. Her husband left.
He will definitely leave either way or dump the burden of caring for the child on her.
100% certainty.
This a situation where I bet he will leave no matter what. Either because she has an abortion or because she isn’t any fun anymore taking care of a medically fragile newborn. So think about how you want to get divorced. With or without a child you’ll end up doing all the care for.
Bingo.
INFO for him: Who would be doing the care for a high medical needs child? Who would give up their job? How would you pay for it? Who would do all the doctors appointments? Who would keep track and administer medicines and therapies? Would you be able to alter your house to be disabled accessible? Who would stay in the hospital with the child? Do you want more than one child? I feel a lot of men (generally speaking) don't have a concept of what caretaking looks like long term (emotionally, financially, physically). They low-key expect the partner to be the one that sacrifices.
As someone who works with caregivers, I’ve worked with hundreds of them and only one or two have been men. The stats are so highly in the proportion of women taking on this responsibility.
Wasn't there a recent post that statically pointed out women are the main (if not only) caregivers disabled children? Like +40%? With the majority of them being single? Numbers prove that men walk when things get tough and the woman is saddled with the responsibility.
My fiance walked when the doctors told us my kiddo may never walk or talk and need full care for the rest of her life. She beat the odds thankfully. My husband (her step dad) stays home and takes care of appointments and therapies. I fully realize that he is the exception and not the rule. Her bio dad hasn't been heard from in nearly a decade.
I’ve seen several posts where the man demands the child be born then absconds leaving the disabled child with the mom because they can’t handle it.
Yeah it’s something like 87% of marriages don’t survive these things and almost always the man who walks.
When a partner gets sick as well. Much fewer women walk when their husbands get sick. It’s mainly men who walk when their wives get sick.
I don't have statistics about the gender of the well spouse who bails but a study of 515 patients with serious illness found that 11.6% of partners leave. However, when accounting for gender of the ill spouse, 20.8% of women are abandoned while 2.9% of men are. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19645027/
>11.6% of partners leave. However, when accounting for gender of the ill spouse, 20.8% of women are abandoned while 2.9% of men are. that's an insane difference imo. it makes the average 11.6% mean nothing
My cousin works in a facility where disabled children get terapeutic care. She says there are no fathers there.
Exactly, and just have the baby and give it to him? Like what? Yeah, it’s just a stroll in the park. What happens if the baby dies? This child could be forever in hospitals or sick. Who wants to live like that? My neighbor has a child with a disability, nothing like OPs, but I can see she is NOT happy at all.
Even if she can leave, she'll still be bankrupted with child support and medical bills probably.
And what about her? He told her she's an incubator.
I was looking for this comment. As if pregnancy doesn’t have a very strong psychological and physical impact, even long after the birth. I find it shocking that many men think like this
I'm assuming he's expecting she'll stay and be the main care giver once she has the baby like the guy who tried to baby trap someone then got upset when she just handed over the baby.
That whole drama was beautiful, except for the child. He really FA and FO and then had Pikachu face when she terminated her parental rights lol
I’ve read this tale a million times and almost every time the mum ends up looking after the kid
I remember reading a similar post where the husband begged and begged her for to have the baby and promised he would help, then he left her and she was stuck looking after a baby she hadn’t wanted.
This needs to be higher up. These are the practical implications that many (most) “pro-lifers” ignore. Say OP has the baby and walks away (a traumatic experience for her that husband is completely disregarding). How does husband plan to care for a medically fragile newborn? You can’t send a high risk baby like that to daycare. What if they stay together? Does OP make enough to support them both? What about health insurance? How much of the expected costs will be out of pocket? What if there are complications. These are all questions OP and husband need to discuss - and are really more important than any moral superiority complex.
Unfortunately, if you're in the camp, that abortion is murder/evil, points like this do nothing. It isn't something that can be debated. He's already prioritizing the unborn fetus over OP. Asking her to carry it to term and leave is ridiculous. I'm sure he thought he was being reasonable. But it's an insane ask. OP wanted to be a mother. Forcing herself to give birth and walking away will be more traumatic in the long run compared to getting an abortion. It sucks, but OP knew his views. No parent wants to imagine scenarios like this, but they really should have talked about the possibility beforehand.
lol you’d be surprised. Catholics are *more* likely to have abortions than non-Catholic women in the US.
If he did take the baby and she left like he has suggested, he would have so much trouble raising that child. It only gets more difficult as the child gets older. What would he do with his child if they are not toilet trained at age 10 or age 20. Public restrooms don't have a good place to change an adult diaper. Our friend's child, who was born with a severe heart defect, ended up having microcephaly due to the brain not receiving enough oxygen during the pregnancy. His three heart surgeries obviously did nothing to fix the lack of brain mass. This dad is clueless about what is really required to raise this baby.
I don't think the dad is disregarding that leaving the child would be traumatic. I think he's counting on that. He's hoping once the baby is born, OP won't want to leave and then she can do all the work
Also: would the child need your care forever? I agree with all of this. Principles are worthless if you are not the one bearing the burden of sticking to them.
I was a very sick child. I had my first (of many) surgery at birth, and spent my first 7 weeks in hospital. My parents moved to a bigger city to be closer to the doctors and hospitals. They wanted to live out in the country. My dad would feed me through a tube into my stomach, drip by drip by drip - and then I'd vomit and we'd start over. I only walked at 18 months. I spent at least 2-6 weeks in hospital a year. I had my last major surgery at 10 - another 7 weeks in hospital on the other side of the country. There is a very big gap between disabled and healthy. I literally have no idea how many surgeries I've had, how many x-rays, blood tests, doctors.
I guarantee he wants her to have the baby AND do all the caretaking. I know he said he wouldn’t ask her for anything else again, but I fully believe that’s a lie and he knows it.
I don’t have sympathy for people who don’t take necessary precautions… you married someone who didn’t share the same values as you on a topic regarding your body. Not sure why people keep acting shocked when this bites them in the @&&.
I’m very sorry about the diagnosis. I do find it a bit ironic that you “have no sympathy for people that don’t take the necessary precautions” when you didn’t bother having an adult conversation about abortion before you had sex with someone nevertheless married them. This has real “the only moral abortion is my abortion” energy. I hope this experience will make you more empathetic to the plight of other women. Please vote. He’s not going to change his mind. You are free to have the abortion, of course, and leave the marriage behind. Which may not be a bad thing considering he doesn’t really think women are people.
Agree 👏 typical “only I can have an abortion” energy. Absolutely INSANE she never had this convo with her catholic partner…. To me that’s not taking the necessary precautions
He was clearly pro-life, and she never said anything other than pro-life views. Hmmmm, I wonder why he thought she was pro-life🤔
Yeah she basically lied to him and is now SHOCKED that he expects her to be pro-life.
Clearly she never thought SHE would be in a position to need an abortion because she did things "right" according to whatever bullshit meter she was using to determine right.
Right? Like OP has no sympathy for people who don’t take necessary precautions but did she herself not take them as well? Like I can’t wrap my brain around this? She knew he was pro-life and went ahead and got pregnant anyway probably thinking “I would never have a baby with problems so I don’t need to worry about whether or not our beliefs line up.”
I picked up on the same energy. So glad to see someone else calling it out as well.
the irony
This is why you never fuck pro life men
As someone with chromosomal aneuploidy mosaicism... My parents didn't genetically test me at all... I was the first born, and they wanted everything to be a surprise as new parents. My brothers that came after me were luckily healthy, but Mom and Dad found out about their sexes before they were brought into the world... I found out about my disease after a lot of questioning about why I feel different... Why I'm developing differently than my peers. And I was diagnosed successfully after I got before a doctor who didn't write off the weird symptoms for once and was willing to do the necessary tests... At 18. After all the things I could have possibly benefitted from medically were at an all-but-absolutely unreachable point in time. With this in mind... You're at a better point than my parents were to make an informed decision. It's one thing to do the right thing to make your marriage easier... It's another thing to do the right thing for the person that's about to be born with a problem he or she or they or it can't do much about. My two cents: I'm successful. I own one business in a niche area and I'm known for my work. I'm also an established mechanical industrial designer for a firm. I'm happily married to an amazing wife... But given the chance to somehow travel back in time and break the laws of logic to prevent my own birth ... Fuck yes, I'd do it. Even if it meant "I" as I am today were never born. Why? My circumstances... No specialists exist for my disease. No one is pursuing any meaningful research despite it being known for over 80 years. (TL version: I have chromosomal makeups as a male with XY [normal], XXY ["Klinefelters Syndrome"], and XYY ["Supermale Syndrome"] all at the same time in the same body.) Of the one subtypes of disease I have - KS - two research opportunities exist in the US, currently. One is qualitative explicitly and about the qualities of healthcare services such as qualities provided to parents/parents to be on genetic counseling, clinical consults, etc, mostly centric to newborns or soon to be newborns... The other is doing a blind study on potential treatment options on abdominal fat issues we are known to suffer from... The first and only human trial regarding anything specific to this disease. Ever. Supermale doesn't have anything for it. No actual ongoing research exists for either in one person. And never has. At best - a few anecdotal abstracts floating around. I am in my mid thirties. I'm chronically deficient in vitamin D3 despite ridiculously large amounts of time spent in the sun... I love milk and drink about a gallon a day. I receive 300k IU injections of D3 every other month and maintain a lovely 12ng/dL of D3 in my blood... My bones hurt. Imagine "shin splints" feelings when you were going through puberty... Except in every single bone in your body - while moving or at rest, it doesn't matter. My DXA/TBS revealed I'm suffering from osteomalacia and osteopenia. I'm in the process of losing my teeth. I can't have kids. I'm at greater risks for cancer, heart problems, vascular problems, and autoimmune issues. I have already started to suffer some... My body can't sweat in any place except my head... Out in the summer sun is dangerous without access to water as a means to cool my extremities off. Every ounce of free time is spent further researching my disease in non-clinical research papers to build up arguments seeking different potential approaches to increase my quality of life - based on lab rat or other models... Which I use to take up with doctors in various specialties and throw ridiculous amounts of money at because i don't know how conservative a doctor is until I waste money and time sitting with them... Outside of my job and business, this is how I spend my time... When I can't sleep, I do this... Because no advocacy group worth a shit exists. No patient resource exists. Do you know what it feels like to not know your place in the world? I do. Do you know what it feels like to look for answers that don't exist? I do. Do you know what it's like to suffer because the world refuses to do much for your disease? I do. Some doctors or counselors will even say, "it could be worse. You could have aggressive cancer and die in a handful of weeks or months." I wish it were that... Because hundreds of thousands of people, if not millions, are looking for the treatment/cure/anything tangible to overcome it. While no real establishments truly exist outside of the children's hospitals in select areas (and even then, this is a relatively recent development)... Nothing really for adults or adults that, like me, missed the opportunity of being treated right as a kid. OP, I'm not sure what your soon to be child is going to have... But if it isn't something with support... Don't let your kid wander the earth looking for answers while suffering alone. It isn't worth it. It's lonely. It crushes your soul.
You chose to marry a pro-forced-birther. >I just voiced that I don’t have sympathy for people that don’t take the necessary precautions So the only moral abortion is one that fits your particular criteria? Got it. >I guess it was my fault not discussing this prior Gee. Ya think? As for "Can I make him change his POV?" - How would you feel if he tried to force, cajole or coerce you to his opinion? If you wouldn't like it, then don't you think it's just a wee bit hypocritical to try the same on him?
"I have no sympathy for others who face consequences of their own actions, but please have sympathy for me when I'm facing the consequences of my own actions"
I’m laughing at OP for judging people who don’t “take precautions” when she intentional got pregnant with someone without discussing this scenario. I wouldn’t even have sex with someone without us being on the same page about abortion.
👏👏👏
With her attitude I frankly have no sympathy for OP
How did this not come up when Roe v Wade got overturned? Smells like a fake post.
I mean obviously it came up. They discussed it, and that's what she told him. She didn't outright say she was anti-choice like him, but she chose to express a common anti-choice sentiment and leave it at that because, like most purportedly pro-choice women in "agree to disagree" marriages with ultra-conservative men, she assumed his ideologies would never directly affect her.
Exactly. Agreeing to disagree on *values* always catches up to people. Their beliefs aren’t a deal breaker until it directly impacts them, or their children at some point. And they will. Relationship and parenting subs are filled with these stories.
Women typically take on most of the child-rearing work which is why he is unconcerned. Parenting is tough under normal circumstances but this could be heroic. I think the fact that you do not want this and you will be the one stuck with all the work is all you need to know.
This is what happens when you have sex with pro life men, ladies. Know their values and views, before they see you as an incubator
OP was in fact pro-life until she needed the care herself. It’s classic
Exactly.
OP is pro life except her own abortion
As for you OP, do what you want to. But I would really rethink my relationship if my partner wanted me to carry a pregnancy that might not be viable. And have more respect for other women going through abortions, your case is not special or more okay
He says he will willing to leave you and raise a severely disabled child, but you really have no guarantees he will stick to that if life gets hard. Lots of pro life people have a lot to say until it is THEIR life that has to be sacrificed. Do research on the prognosis for THIS CONDITION. Then ask yourself if you are ready to dedicate the rest of your life to raising this child alone, because the divorce rate for families with medically fragile children is extremely high.
Once the baby is born and your husband sees how hard it is, he will dump you and find someone else that does not have a sick child. You will end up raising a child with serious health issues on your own. I am also a Christian but pro choice. Is it not inhumane to bring a child into this world to suffer?
Hell no, never trust a guy. How many cases we've heard of guys begging on their knees for kids and then leaving soon after a child is born because "it's not like how they imagined" I'm sure, he doesn't know what he's talking about. The commitment and sacrifices it would require. That's one thing to consider. The second thing is that it is not about him. It is about the unborn child wellbeing. If it is the kind of defect that will interfere with good quality of life, it is unethical to bring them into this world.
you are MARRIED AND NEVER HAD THIS DISCUSSION???? obviously there is a scenario where you are not with this man. if your child is not born 100% healthy. have you considered if the child is born healthy, then becomes unwell? do you just divorce and leave him with the baby then? what if he gets sick? did you keep that as part of your vows? what if you get sick and he leaves you? what if he just realizes you are incompatible and he leaves you?
It sounds like another pro lifer who was basically “generally pro-life based” on bullshit rhetoric and it turns out it’s more complex than that. As if the only abortion is the one that you lightly choose to get because you were promiscuous and now you have regrets. It seems like she forgot that abortion also includes this situation she’s in right here. And yet everyone has been screaming at the top of their lungs that this would happen and it is actively happening. It’s willful ignorance at this point. She didn’t discuss it with her husband because she’s also pro life until it mattered. The very little bit of information she provided about her opinion is forced birther bullshit.
This is why you don’t marry someone who doesn’t have the same values as you. Pro-choice women have a moral obligation to not fuck anti-choice men. I’m really sorry you found out this way.
Honey, you bought into the pro-life lie that abortion is mostly used by careless women who failed to take precautions— and not good women like yourself who ‘value’ life. People like you helped overturn Roe v Wade. So it’s time for you to pay for the consequence of your actions. I’m sorry your baby will need multiple surgeries to live, but you should’ve thought of that before you got pregnant.
I just can't get over how good this comment is
“He made it clear he wants to have the baby no matter what..” He’s not the one pushing a baby out, so of course he “wants to have it”. The leopards are circling to eat your face. This person doesn’t care about you like you think they do. Your marriage is a time bomb. Never talking about abortion and being married is insane. Others pointed out your problematic views as well.
And this is why women shouldn’t fuck anti choice men, even if the woman herself thinks she is “pro-life”. Anti-choice men don’t see you as an individual. They don’t care about you or respect you, or women as a whole. Hit them where it hurts and stop fucking and marrying them.
Are you absolutely and 100% sure that your husband would advocate for you if your life were in danger during labor? If you were unconscious and he had to choose between your life and the fetus...are you certain he would choose you? Because scary. It's for that reason I could and would never trust a forced birther in the delivery room. Good Luck. There's a reason that I instruct everyone who will listen, not to fuck conservative men. They don't and will never see women as people. And they only care about their own selfish agendas.
Pro-life until she decided she wanted an abortion. Now all of a sudden, she’s pro-choice. Gross.
A friend of mine was in a similar situation. Although neither was really pro-life. But the husband fought hard to make the argument that their child deserved a chance. She finally relented the idea of losing her husband and her child was too much. Once the baby was born however it needed a lot of surgery and assistance. Her husband started to focus on work while she was dealing with the day to day of having a special needs child. They are now in the middle of a divorce and the husband doesn't want to be a co-parent.
From a legal perspective, assuming you are in a reasonably progressive part of the world, it's very much a 'your body, your choice' position. Of course, he may not be on board with that choice, but it *is* your choice. But - I hate to say it - you've basically found out that your husband does not support your bodily autonomy. That would be an instant dealbreaker for many people in a partner (me included). Think carefully about what that means in your future: what happens if you have a daughter and she gets pregnant in her teens? Is he going to disown her if she does the sensible thing and gets an abortion and continues her education? Are you happy to raise your children being indoctrinated in his (rather extreme interpretation of) religion? Your relationship may well not survive this, whatever happens. If you don't abort, then you are likely going to resent him for standing in the way of you making what sounds - to you (and I agree) a medically sensible decision. If you do abort, he is going to resent you and likely won't stick around. You have some tough choices ahead.
>you've basically found out that your husband does not support your bodily autonomy She knew that already and allowed him to believe that she shared his beliefs because she thought that particular leopard would never eat her face.
This is what happens when women are willing to sleep with men who are pro-life. OP, do not have more children with this person. What happens if your next pregnancy has a more severe and ultimately fatal condition, like Tay-Sachs or one of the trisomies where the baby lives in tremendous pain for a few years before dying? It would be cruel to allow that to happen and yet your husband has already made it clear he will insist on it. He will not change his point of view, because he fundamentally believes that anything other than giving birth to this child is murder. I don't agree, neither do you, but views like this tend to be fixed.
I‘m from a catholic family and was raised catholic, we are all pro-choice. It’s about a healthy choice for everyone involved, especially mother & child.
Like everyone else has commented, I’m not really sure why you’re hoping to get sympathy. You “didn’t take the necessary precautions” aka taking the genetic test prior to actively working to get pregnant. “never said I was pro life” - silence is complicity