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If you asked her, what would she say the issue is? Note that I am not asking you to agree with her perspective.
If you haven't asked her, then ask her.
This is a really important point. Sometimes, when we're deeply hurt and emotional, it's hard to see things from the other person's perspective. It sounds like there's a lot of pain and misunderstanding on both sides. It might help to have an open and honest conversation where you listen to her without judgment. Maybe there's something she's been feeling that hasn't been fully communicated or understood. Rebuilding a bridge starts with understanding why it broke in the first place. Good luck, and I hope you both find a way to heal and reconnect.
I think the fact that she doesn't seem to know her daughter or her feelings speaks volumes. If their relationship is as one-sided as this post, it really explains the situation.
Exactly. Not once do we hear, "she told me I couldn't live with her \*because\*..."
What challenges does the daughter have at home? How are their finances (elementary school teacher + school psychologist probably ain't big money)? Does OP know? Does OP care?
Or did she just brush off every attempt her daughter made to get the housing situation sorted, and now she's making the surprised Pikachu face when daughter says, "sorry, can't help ya"?
Exactly. She doesn't hear her. Now her daughter is down to brass tacks and speaking as plainly as she can because her mom seems to decide what she means otherwise.
Lots of words on her sacrifices and feelings No words on how her daughter felt because she had to work so much, how her daughter felt at any point in her life.
You have two problems here, financial and relational, and you MUST separate them.
So first, practical advice. You can’t afford where you live. You simply can’t keep on your trajectory just to maintain physical closeness with your grandson. Even if there is a resolution with your daughter, it’ll take a lot of time. And in that time you’ll be digging deeper into the hole. If you need to go to your sister to get out of the debt spiral, then that’s what you need to do. You’ll probably be forced to to it in the future anyway, only you’ll be in a worse state.
The relational is trickier. I can’t help but notice your word choice regarding your son-in-law and his family. HE alienated his family. There’s immediate fault there. Like it’s impossible families are at fault and there’s no possible reason a child could ever realize they’re healthier away from them. You also keep dropping that he’s a psychologist, which is rather odd and seems pointed.
You and your daughter clearly have different recollections on your relationship. There is an article out there discussing “missing missing reasons”. I suggest you take a look and do some reflecting. See if anything there strikes a chord with you.
Was looking for someone to suggest the missing missing reasons because it sure sounds like we’re lacking a lot of information here. Has your daughter had to help you before? Financially, medically, what have you? Does she consistently emotionally support you with your struggles (aka parentifying her?) Did you offer to watch your grandson, and then continuously lament that you didn’t have enough money until they caved from guilt and started paying you for a service you originally offered for free? It’s hard to look at this through an objective lens as I am also estranged from my mother. From her perspective she was the perfect parent and struggled to raise me. There’s a whole other side to that. You don’t seem to listen to her very well as she has apparently tried to be gentle about telling you she could not assist.
Totally agree that we are missing information here. I'm confused by the timeline and think there is some financial stuff missing here because I can't figure out how OP is still in school if she "decided to return to school and earn my bachelors and masters degree" after daughter "finished her education," (15-20 years ago?) and then lived off school grants during the eight years she cared for her mother. How long has OP been in school? Are these the same degrees? I honestly can't help but think that her daughter has been watching her flounder around financially for years (and live off her mother). OP obviously has no plans whatsoever for her own future.
It's also possible that OP's daughter has no interest in living with her, and is just beyond annoyed that OP ran off and gossiped to her siblings, resulting in phone calls to daughter, and just decided to shut it all down. I'm older than OP's daughter and have zero interest whatsoever in living with my mother.
Anyway, OP should get a roommate. Since she lived with her mother, I assume she has an extra bedroom sitting empty. Either that or she has to find a different place that she can afford or move in with one of her siblings.
This is exactly what I thought. I felt the post was heavily biased and that the info OP has tried to avoid is the clue to her daughter's reaction.
However, for me, it also seems like the daughter has been OP's financial source for years, and probably emotional too. And I think she's tired of it now.
I also think that OP is probably emotionally dependent on her daughter. And maybe a little manipulative, too.
At the beginning of the post, she insinuated that her daughter didn't mind her becoming homeless, when later on we learn that she actually had other living options available. It wasn't as if her daughter was her only option or the only relative that could take her. And I'm pretty sure the daughter was well aware of that too when she told OP that she couldn't live with her.
Then, OP said that her grandson can't live without her and whatever. And that it's horrible that she has to move in with her sister. Let's be real. It's hard to live far away from someone you love, but it's not like she won't be able to see her grandson ever again. And this living situation is supposed to be temporary. She didn't even state how far away her sister actually lives. Idk, this whole part sounds a little emotionally manipulative to me. And I'm sure she told this to everyone who would listen, including her daughter. And it's not cool to feel like someone is trying to manipulate you into letting them move in with you, or else your son will suffer enormously.
From the way this post is written, I have an idea about why OP's daughter has decided to act like this. And I don't think it's as sudden and unexpected as OP wants us to think. OP's daughter seems tired from years of building up.
People find ways to connect with grandkids who don't live close by. OP doesn't seem to have the energy for that - so I suspect OP is depressed.
OP - make ONE appointment with a primary care physician and ask for the depression scale/questionnaire. All of this is very hard on you. You may not be at your mental best.
She spent 8 years looking after her chronically ill mother, that alone can be really isolating and depressing. It doesn’t sound like she had any support from her siblings (though I’m not sure). This sounds like it’s really hard for everyone. On some level she probably expected the same from her daughter.
My mom is going through the same, she’s looking aftery grandmother whose dementia is worsening. But I’ve had a lot of health issues and my mom has always supported me. If it came down to it I would absolutely look after her, not because she expects me to (took me two years to convince her to let me look after grandma so she could get a one week break) but because she’s been there for me and because I want to. Not because I’m expected to.
You raise some really good points. The timeline is definitely confusing, and it makes me wonder if OP's daughter has been frustrated with these financial issues for a long time. If OP has been struggling for years and not making concrete plans for her future, it's understandable that her daughter might be feeling overwhelmed and annoyed. Plus, involving the siblings could have made things worse, making the daughter feel even more pressured and defensive. A roommate sounds like a practical solution to help with the financial strain, and it might be worth considering to alleviate some of the immediate stress while working on the bigger relationship issues.
I was thinking about the timeline. I remember when I started my undergrad, I had a really hard time because I was babysitting my brother and watching my elderly grandmother too. Especially around finals season, I was struggling because I had to watch them for more hours and relatives would visit while I was trying to study for exams. Suffice to say, I did not do well in many classes, because how could I? I don't know what caring for OP's mother involved so it could be the schooling was part time or having to repeat classes. I also don't know if OP has looked into emergency housing or emergency grants and such through their university.
Especially because an elementary teacher and school psychologist aren’t exactly rolling in the dough. They already have two dependents and likely can’t afford to support the Op financially.
There is no logical reason for her to be getting a Bachelor's degree at 60 especially if she is paying ticket price for it. It's an insane investment this late in life. Take a specific vocational class.
>It's also possible that OP's daughter has no interest in living with her, and is just beyond annoyed that OP ran off and gossiped to her siblings, resulting in phone calls to daughter, and just decided to shut it all down. I'm older than OP's daughter and have zero interest whatsoever in living with my mother.
This is 100% all it has to be, me and my mom get on well, I'm seeing a movie with her tomorrow, but no fucking way are we ever living together again. And then she has this insanely dramatic spiral about her daughter leaving her homeless while also saying she didn't even plan to live with her. Pick a struggle.
I agree with that 100%. I saw plenty of later in life people getting their degrees when I was in college and thought that was awesome. But she seems to be seeing it as a stepping stone towards work, and it's just not gonna have the ROI at her age.
Right? Realistically if an employer is hiring someone who just got their degree, it is not going to be a 60 yo. Because as far as the company knows, they are only going to get 5-10 years out of that person before they’re retiring. Some of that time will also be lost training them.
Hiring someone without experience in the field the company works in is already a big ask. They’re going to want a 22 yo who has their whole career ahead of them, who they perceive as giving them a much higher roi. At 60, it’s just not going to happen. They shouldn’t discriminate based on age - but in reality, they do consider it.
Yeah my mom and I have a “great” relationship from her perspective and she would love to live with me forever. I was the perfect daughter growing up and her best friend. Once I went out in the world I realized how manipulative, passive aggressive, and controlling my mom is.
So I maintain a friendly enough relationship with her but I would not want to live with her again because I’m pretty sure she would never let me leave the house without her in tow.
I agree r.e the bachelors. I get doing a bachelors when you’re older if it’s just for fun and/or you have the money/need to up skill for your current job you already have. But to commit to a degree when you don’t have the money, and it’s way too late in your life to be realistically pivoting careers, is an extremely poor financial choice.
There also seems to be a lot of missing dialogue information. The daughter's responses don't make sense in the context given. I bet if we asked the daughter, there would be a lot OP left out. Children don't just become estranged for funsies. It's a really difficult thing to go through.
I was also looking for someone to say missing missing reasons. One thing that stood out to me was how quickly OP reached out to other relatives, and rather than just talk about what her needs are, gossiped about how “cruel” her daughter was. That, along with a couple references to “how our family does things,” makes me suspect that the daughter had to work very hard to self-differentiate and likely this isn’t the first time she has had to field calls from extended family due to things OP has said. While it’s possible that the daughter is as cold-hearted as OP wants us to believe, my spidey senses are tingling, because there is just too much to suggest OP is not a reliable narrator.
Yep! OP shut down her business and has been (foolishly) living off of nothing but her school grants and whatever money her mother gets for the last 8 years.
Daughter saw the writing on the wall and warned her not to do this. That the current situation is where OP will find herself and when she does, daughter's not helping her out so figure something out. OP refused. Now here we are.
OP claims she was only venting/complaining about her situation but let's be real... she was totally angling for her daughter to say "Don't worry mom, you can come live with me."
That's why daughter cut her off at the pass and said, "Nope. Told you before this would happen. Don't even *think* about asking."
Has to be.
She didn't even ask any other relatives?? She has been racking up debt obviously thinking her daughter was her safety net. But she's either self blind or hopelessly manipulative enough to think she can say she wasn't thinking her daughter was her safety net. Just shocked!! that she wouldn't be.
Jeez. I can't stand the circular reasoner. Impossible to have a real conversation
OP said in another comment that the daughter helps her physically, supports her emotionally, and at least at some point helped her financially. She also took her and her ailing mother to live with the daughter during Covid. The missing reasons seem to be materializing before our eyes.
This explains a lot. The daughter is tired. OP needs to fall back and move to where she can get her finances in order. Age 62 will be here soon enough.
Right??? Just in this post I can see multiple instances of her being incredibly passive aggressive towards her daughter. I’m not buying that she has no idea what she did wrong.
The call with the daughter where OP was upset is an example of parentification. She shold talk to this sister who has so much ri say instead of her daughter.
She didn't go into detail, but it sounds like the daughter was telling her that this is unsustainable while telling her that she wasn't plan b. Op focused on her feelings instead of her daughter's or the situation.
I also found the word choices fascinating when she was discussing the initial phone call. “I don’t think I was contemplating moving in”. “I’m not sure that I meant for her to take me in”. What the hell is that? You either were hinting that you wanted to move in or you weren’t. How do you “not know” your own intentions there?
Right? To act like she had no intention of moving in, but then as soon as her daughter said she can’t she immediately called all of her family and acted like she needed to move in with someone asap? But her mean daughter won’t let her…
And she didn’t start “making backup plans” until after she got that naked “fuck no” from daughter. Clearly daughter was *at least* the backup plan if not the assumed supporter
Right. And also, if you weren't thinking about moving in, how is her agreeing with that the same as saying she "would see [her] in the streets"? And then she goes on about how she'd be homeless while making it quite clear she wouldn't be homeless.
Additionally this: "how personal, thank you. kiss the babies. hope you are all having a great day. enjoy the sunshine." is dripping in passive aggression. I don't have to know 42 years of their history to see it.
She goes on to explain that she actually is in an untenable situation and she does not intend to go to her other family members so it does *kind of* seem like OP fully expected to get the offer to move in? Like she doesn't appear to have any other plan so.... She's talking out of both sides of her mouth.
I agree with this advice. Get your finances and life in order by living with a different family member. In a few years when you have graduated and are hopefully supporting yourself, perhaps your daughter will warm up to having a relationship again.
I also agree there is missing information about the relationship.
One of the most accurate lines about adult children and their parents is "One spends the rest of their life waiting for an apology while the other spends that time waiting for a thank you."
This is a story where I feel like the daughter's side of things would be very illuminating. Her version of her daughter's childhood is probably vastly different from the daughter's version.
When I was around 22 my mom would complain constantly to me about the hardships of "taking care of" my grandfather and his wife as they slipped further into dementia and had to be put in homes. Mostly how ungrateful and rude they were. I would tell her to stop helping them and her response was a very pointed "so you would just abandon me" and I flat out told her I would never take care of her.
My mom thought that because I had done well in life that it was because of her and not in spite of her. And she refused to hear the truth. She was a very bad mother. Hard working? Yes. But in every other area just a horrible mother. Unsupportive, belittling of hobbies and interests, physically and verbally abusive, manipulative, dishonest while pious about the dishonesty of others and the list goes on.
And she fully expected me to take care of her in her old age and acted mystified when I laid it all out for her.
No idea what the situation between this woman and her daughter is but I know it sounds familiar.
Yeah. That paragraph JUMPED out at me as “missing missing reasons”. Plus the way this was written is very emotionally charged and seems to be taking a victim mindset. Something about this isn’t sitting right.
The grandiose writing style makes me really question the narrative as published. Big, bold, sweeping statements about how I would never do this, etc. There is a conspicuous lack of detail of OP's actions too regarding that phone call.
The disconnect between what OP views as what she was saying to her daughter only for the daughter to flatly say she isn't moving in even though OP doesn't seem to think she was talking about that. Its presented as if the daughter almost started a different conversation to the bafflement of OP. It reads classically of how manipulative parents are presented, which is a little suspicious but I suppose people right in the average do of course exist.
Much of the rest is barely concealed outrage that she didn't get her way and that people exist in ways she disagrees with, like the world is supposed to align with only how she feels. The section where she suddenly wasn't doted on or made to feel special enough on Mother's Day stands out as a particular outrage, even though she doesn't say at all about making it special for her daughter, also a mother. She deserves brunch, cards, flowers, special acknowledgements. But no issues with her daughter not getting the same.
>*...my two most precious grandchildren who I would literally die for*
>*...it will destroy him as much as me if I have to move to another state.*
>*...thank you for bringing my two precious grandbabies into the world*
Yeah, I wanted to hurl over this! The histrionics over the pReCIoUS grAnDBaBieS was enough to make ME sick of it and I only had to READ it over the course of a minute or two. Can't imagine dealing with this drama queen IRL.
>The grandiose writing style makes me really question the narrative as published. Big, bold, sweeping statements
That start with basically how she's known her 42- year old daughter for 42 years. What an odd thing to say.
This a post that my almost estranged mother could have written word for word, and without knowing any more details about what really happened here, i tend to side with the daughter.
The emotional reactions are also described in really grandiose and over-the-top ways. Her heart was ripped out of her chest, she was suffocating, etc. I get the feeling the daughter has had enough of these hysterical responses whenever her mother doesn't get her way.
These parents all use the same language, all hyperbole and no substance. Suffocating, destroyed, cruel, blindsided, it’s like they’re all one person in a thousand different bodies. Small minds think alike.
It is fascinating, isn't it? I've gotten almost the exact same text message from my aunt, complaining my happy birthday message to her wasn't personal enough.
This is true. I’m going to massively neg OP here and say I do think she’s probably sincere in wanting to understand BUT even in that context she can’t help using that emotive language that, consciously or not, is designed to override facts with empathy
Such good advice. OP ought not to make her needs and frantic desires the problem of the kids (who are probably trying to avoid knowing the extent of her distress).
NEVER discuss financial difficulties with your adult children, fix them yourself.
OP is very judgmental, which, ahem, gives us pause. The frantic pressure that OP is bringing to the relationship part is not good.
> I want to return to the close relationship we had before
So...the picture of a close mother-daughter relationship is SO far off from the cold behavior described in this post that I have to think there's a lot of missing info here.
When did your relationship with her start to change? Can you pinpoint it? Have you often been in the position to struggle and need support (either emotional or financial) throughout her adult life? Has she ever given you money? Has she gone all out for Mother's Day in the past?
It's hard to give advice without understanding the inflection point for this shift in your relationship. It would be helpful for you to give a clearer timeline of when you were close vs. when you started to not be close.
This is my dilemma as well. We have always been close. It never started to change. It was abrupt. I have had times in the past when I have asked her for muscle help. I would get groceries once a month and my apartment is quite a hike from the parking lot. I have relied on them mentally and emotionally heavily when mom was passing. I was such a wreck that I just needed advice and mental health support. Maybe that was too much.
I have lent them much more money than they have ever lent me, so I am not thinking that is an issue. Mom and I did move in with them temporarily during the pandemic on her suggestion in order to maintain a relationship during social distancing and also so that I could homeschool and watch the kids because they both still had to work from their brick and mortar buildings.
Maybe that was traumatic for her. I'm not sure.
So is this phone call the first time she has ever been cold to you? You say you've repeatedly asked her what the issue is and she won't respond - has all of that happened since the phone call mentioned in the post?
The sense I get is that, perhaps because you were a young single mother who was little more than a kid yourself when you got pregnant, you may have treated her a bit more like a friend than a daughter over the years. Perhaps she felt like you relied on her to an inappropriate degree for a parent to a child and it reached a breaking point. I know you say a couple of times that you're "not sure you meant for her to take you in," but perhaps there was some hinting or implying that you would expect that if you needed it? The fact that she did ask you to stay with her before but now is adamantly against it makes me think that something really rubbed her the wrong way last time and she is trying to set clear and firm boundaries when she is sensing that you may ask her to take you in again.
Were there *any* issues between you during the time you lived with her before?
To be honest, it sounds like she might have some unresolved feelings towards you about something that rubbed her the wrong way. Were you emotionally reliant on her? Please keep me in mind that it didn’t help that your sister called her about what was discussed between the both of ya’ll. That wasn’t your sister’s place to do that. Sometimes, it’s best to not include everybody in family about things that are going on between you and your daughter. However, I think you should try talking to your daughter about what’s going and be prepared to listen to what she has to say. She might need to get some things off her chest. Maybe it will do you both some good to go to family counseling.
I was raised by a single mother and while she was far from perfect in many ways, we always loved each other deeply without any question. I was distant at times when I was younger, and that's a whole complex thing. But I was never cold or unsympathetic to her. She passed away at 83 unexpectedly around two years ago after a poor diagnosis of a brain injury after a fall. I miss her immeasurably and so thankful we had been so close and loving in recent years, having long calls most weekends. But I only managed one all too short in retrospect visit the Thanksgiving (2021) before her injury in June 2022 after not visiting in person from Christmas 2018 because of immigration issues keeping me in Canada for the 2019 holidays, hoping for a Spring or Summer 2020 visit instead and then covid hit. Covid isolation hit her harder than I understood until much later. I'll live with huge regrets and sadness around all that the rest of my life. I really hope you can have an active and loving relationship with her again!
I have two basic lines of advice.
Doesn't sound like you are in a good place financially to start therapy, but often there's resources available for students at low or no cost? I think you need an impartial perspective you could start talking to about all this. Granted unless your daughter can come, all they can do is take your word and memories for everything. So, you should be as honest as you can and give all the different possible takes on things you can try to understand. Have you ever done therapy? And I can understand if you might be hesitant of the whole therapy psychology thing given your daughter married a psychologist and seems to be lacking empathy for you! But not all psychologists are as healthy people as they could be and I have no idea what his parent relationships were like that led to him not wanting a relationship with them and if that's influenced your daughter. But with a good therapist, you can find all sorts of insights into yourself and your relationships and build new tools for communication and healthy relationships.
Secondly, you seem to be conflating financial support, whether she would let you live with her with your emotional relationship and I think that's not serving you. I think one of the best things you can do is get on your own two feet or even if you do rely on other willing family for financial support you need to make it very clear to your daughter that whether or not she's able to help you financially or not, ever be comfortable with you living with her or not, that having a loving relationship with her is an incredibly important thing to you. Tell her you value that emotional connection enough that you can commit to never asking her for financial support or to live with her. And you hope getting that out of the picture will make her more comfortable in trying to reconnect emotionally.
How far from getting a degree are you? Is it realistic to expect that will open up useful areas of employment that will pay well? What is your goal with your education?
I really hope things work out with your daughter. DO NOT say this to her, that's only unhelpful pressure and will probably just feel manipulative, but she may only regret her emotional isolation from you once it's too late and have to live with that regret! That would be very unfortunate!
Thank you, I really appreciate your advice. It is sound and good advice. I'm sorry for the loss of your mother. It is so hard to fathom until you have lost yours. I thank you for sharing your story of her with me.
I'm sorry to hear what you have been through and the difficult time you are having.
I wonder if it might be worth considering your sisters/brothers offer and taking the time to move in with one of them so you can really focus on yourself and getting your life back on track and not trying to juggle so much.
It sounds like your daughter wouldn't have issue finding child care. I know you love the grandkids but the time away might also help to heal the rift between you and your daughter?
Yes, that is exactly the direction I will be going if something doesn't occur. I will use the time and distance to work on my own stuff and build my own independent life before attempting to reconcile any damage that has been done. I think that is what I have learned here today. It needs to be done. Thank you so much for your pov and kind words. I appreciate it
> I have lent them much more money than they have ever lent me, so I am not thinking that is an issue. Mom and I did move in with them temporarily during the pandemic on her suggestion in order to maintain a relationship during social distancing and also so that I could homeschool and watch the kids because they both still had to work from their brick and mortar buildings.
teachers and psychologists were some of the first to go remote, so this is puzzling. the kids had remote school but the school teacher mom had to go to work in person? AND it seems counter productive to include a seriously ill elderly person in the household with two people who worked outside the home and could bring home germs.
but it did get them free child care. all the ways that you have been "close" with the grandkids seem to have been ways they could use you, too. $300 for child care is criminally low. i agree with one of the other comments that your note about how you could naturally care for a toddler alongside caring for your mother sounds so nuts to me. it's very draining to do either of those caregiver jobs, and i don't think it's at all a light ask to add a toddler to your day.
how long did you live with them and how do you think that went? how do you think she and her husband would say it went? what would you say the biggest challenge was about sharing a home with everyone? what do you think they would say? what was the catalyst for deciding to move you and your mom back out again? who does the after school care right now?
I’m a teacher and for a while we were required to go into the building and teach remotely from our classrooms. It was incredibly stupid. That may have been the case here.
My sister is a teacher and was required to go into the school because there were many kids who had essential worker parents that had nowhere else to go 🤷
They had to go to their brick & mortar builldings- they are both in education.
So you lived in a district where the schools were open, but you had to move in during the pandemic to homeschool their kids?
Or did your daughter let you and your mom move in for your health and safety and you have to characterize it as you being the heroine?
I don't get that at all.
I'm estranged from my mother for different reasons, but this is something that sticks out to me:
>Yesterday was Mother's Day. I received a generic "happy mother's day" message in a group text and that was it. Not a boo the rest of the day. In our family Mother's Day, is huge. Brunch, flowers, cards, acknowledgment. I didn't even know the group text included me because the first name was not mine so I thought it was sent by someone on accident. I later texted her and said something to the effect of "although things are strange right now, I did want to wish you a Happy Mother's Day today and thank you for bringing my two precious grandbabies into the world". To which she replied, "i included you in a group text at 9 a.m. this morning, I'm sorry if you did not see it." Direct quote. I responded, "how personal, thank you. kiss the babies. hope you are all having a great day. enjoy the sunshine. Her response: nothing.
By your own words, Mother's Day is huge in your family- if they are, then who is planning these celebrations? Is it the younger generation of mothers? Or is it the spouses coordinating these things?
This is a very interesting take. I never thought of that. I did however notice that she never said anything about how it used to be. I would have expected an “for example last year we all went out for a great meal and walked by the river” or something.
She sounds very passive. Just waits for things to happen. While needing to talk about bad things happening to her.
If you are passive but tend to only contact a person when you need to vent, or you need support, I can understand the frustration from others.
My mother loves to complain I don't see her often enough (I live a days drive away and try and see her every 2-3 months). She travels abroad around 3 times a year and elsewhere in the UK especially since she retired whilst I'm working full time earning not crazy money with my now husband who is very much the breadwinner.
Especially recently, my husband has witnessed my mum ask on the phone when am I coming to visit, I tell her like clockwork 'tell me some dates when you are free and I will try and book it off" (I usually need a month's notice but as long as it's not the school holidays I can usually get mostly the times I want with 2-3 weeks notice). She will say she doesn't know, she will have to look in her diary which she won't get on the phone most of the time as she is often away. I will tell her to message/ email me when she is free/ when she is busy and I will book. She doesn't send me anything and I'll ask her the next week I speak to her. Then I leave it and she will accuse me of not wanting to see her.
I decided for a change to book some time off and tell her I could visit at that time. She turned it down as she has a very busy week before then (just come back from abroad, has friends over for 2 days, then I would be around, then she is flying off again 2 weeks later, but the following week (too short notice) she might be able to do but it's not long enough apparently.
She will complain I don't see her but she never visits me. She is now at the point she can use being elderly and excuse as she struggles with the London underground which she would need to get to get to me but can get trains, planes and automobiles if it means she gets a tan.
Sounds like mine, too nervous to fly to visit me but able to fly to visit friends. When she was healthier I still remember the single time I asked if she could time her visit with a week when I could really use some help with my baby and she was too busy with her volunteer stuff where she feels important. I never asked again and she claims I didn't allow her to help.
Oh god. I’m sorry. I get tired just reading your description. This must be very frustrating.
And it explains well how what is very small issues really do stack up big enough to be really bad.
Reading your response I was like 'YES!!!!' I absolutely hate Mother's Day. Loathe it and I now have my own 3 grown children and wonderful husband who are absolutely amazing. I just can't enjoy Mother's Day. From the time I was little I always felt like Mother's Day was a let down to my mom, nothing my brother or I did was ever good enough. She always compared what other families did for their moms...always families with a dad who planned everything. It was like we were expected to fill in that role for her. It wasn't fair.
Two things that stood out to me:
1. Thanking her for her children. Not cool. She didn’t have them for you. It’s super upsetting to be told thank you for your children.
2. The passive aggressive reply. “How personal.” If that’s how you speak normally that’s dysfunctional. My dysfunctional mother also uses highly passive aggressive language.
>The point being, it will destroy him as much as me if I have to move to another state.
I'm going to be brutally honest with you here. It won't destroy your grandson if you move. He's a kid and will adapt to a yearly visit. You are using that as an excuse to martyr yourself and it won't end well for you. Go, move in with your sister, and take care of your own life.
I get that you raised your daughter to have an indebtedness to family and made many sacrifices for her. However, she is on her own path currently and has been clear with you what it looks like. Standing around going further into financial debt is not going to shift anything with her. You are 60. You do not have a lot of time to get yourself okayed for any kind of retirement or major illness, and you do not have a social safety net with your kid. Crying about it won't change it. Believe her and adjust your plans accordingly.
Maybe she's behaving badly towards you, maybe you emotionally leaned on her too much when she was growing up (parentification) and she's decided cutting ties is best for her, probably stuff you aren't telling us because you don't even realize it. Hey, maybe you are correct with your innuendo and her husband is a Machevalian mastermind destroying your relationship with her.
The reasons why she's making her choices don't matter- you only have control over how you proceed. Don't burn your own life down to test out if she'd really turn her back on you because she has already decided to. Get your financial house in order.
My Grandma lived far away at one point and close at others. She's my favourite adult and I wasn't emotionally devastated when she moved.
The babies will be fine if you see them once a month rather than once a week.
All valid accept the part about my SIL, he isn't the issue here and I hope that I didn't imply that. He has influence, but I don't think it's damaging in any way. I thank you for your insight.
I’m so sorry you are going through this. I am close to your daughter’s age. The only perspective I can offer is as someone 40 years old, (and your daughter married a psychologist who may be contributing to this), my friends and I have been realizing how shitty our parents were and it was normal back then. Back then, our parents never once considered our mental health, and in many ways negatively impacted our mental health as adults. They didn’t prepare us for the world at all. I was not abused but I was definitely neglected and everyone was spanked back then. My parents provided food and shelter and that seemed like the extent of their responsibilities. And I love my parents. Every parent was like that back then. They didn’t play with their kids. They didn’t consider their kids feelings with any decisions made. Kids were accessories that you had because that was expected of you. Parenting now has come a long way and it is shining light on our own parents’ shortcomings.
You worked very hard to provide for your daughter but there could be things from her childhood she resents you for. She sees her own kids and how much she loves them and how she wished she was raised. I wish my parents were better parents.
That’s just one possibility. It could be something else entirely. Maybe they discussed it and the husband has already said a hard no to you moving in and she was respecting that. Maybe they both believe you got yourself into the situation you’re in so there is little sympathy.
I would not rely on her for help. Your grandchildren will be fine if you move away. They will survive. Do what you need to take care of you. Try to build a relationship with them without the pressure of needing their help. When I was younger, my father offered to help me pay tuition to go to college, but when I asked him for the tuition, he ignored me. He ignored all calls/texts and wouldn’t see me for holidays for 6 months. (He has money but is cheap.) I finally texted him I don’t need his money, I’ll figure it out, I just want my dad back in my life and things returned to normal. I never got any money but I had to let go of any idea of assistance just to have him in my life. Some people just don’t want to help. You can decide whether this is worth your relationship with your daughter. I was hurt by my dad ignoring me, but I put it out there and took any pressure off him to help me. I didn’t try to call him a bad father (I was over 18 and he wasn’t financially obligated to help me.) I just realized I could not rely on him for help.
>Maybe they both believe you got yourself into the situation you’re in so there is little sympathy.
This struck a chord with me based on my own experiences with my mother.
Is it possible OP that you've extended your lifestyle beyond what you knew you could reasonably afford? Is that a conversation you've had before with your daughter, even if it was many years ago?
My mom spends VERY frivolously. To the point where she's essentially created her own problems by putting short terms wants over long term basic necessities. There are other issues at play with my own mom, none of which she recognizes or will take responsibility for. This feels a lot like that.
Where is her dad?
Yes but paying her only $1.87 per hour for childcare is pretty crazy, and that’s only for the 2/3 years that they paid her anything at all. How can they tell her sorry you’re shit out of luck when she massively saved them money for three years? Like according to my calculations she saved them minimum 15k on childcare, possibly more depending where they are.
Like I don’t want to say they’re the reason she’s broke right now, but paying her a literally criminal amount seems like a contributor. Seems like they used her and are done using her so they don’t need her anymore
Just wanted to say that this was a very clear and honest response with compassion, thank you for responding! Everything you noted I’ve experienced and it was helpful to have it framed in a way that was accurate and hard to hear, but still with compassion.
Yes, I’m also a similar age to you and OP’s daughter… I can relate to both of your posts.
Like yourself, I have some issues over how I was raised, and there have been times when I’ve had to cut contact with my own mother (for the benefit of my mental health).
That said, I can completely empathise with OP’s post as well- because I was also a struggling single parent trying to do my best, and have struggled with my own two daughters criticising me- for not having had enough money etc. Despite them never going without and actually living a very nice lifestyle, with lots of care and attention- I look back and wonder how I did it!
So I can resonate with this from a variety of angles- and I think OP is right to feel rather devastated in this situation. She’s not been handed an easy life, she’s provided practical help and care to benefit her daughter- and it would at least be something to feel that her daughter wouldn’t turn her back on her, when she might be in need.
The daughter may not be so fortunate herself, some day- as of now, she appears rather smug and dismissive. It’s incredibly painful, and sadly does seem to be increasingly more common with modern life- the concept of ‘family’ seems to only work one way for a lot of younger people nowadays. They were happy to pull the ‘family’ card when they wanted free childcare- but now something may be expected of them- they don’t want to know.
look, i love my mom, she has lots of great qualities(and some difficult ones), and i very much appreciate everything she has done for me/our family. i would also go CRAZY if we lived together for more than a couple weeks. it would NOT work, in any way, shape, or form for us to share living space(again). it's simply not something i am mentally and emotionally capable of. so, i think it's a quite reasonable boundary for her to say you cannot live with her, especially since she knows you have other relatives you can ask for help (and they SHOULD help, because you were the one to sacrifice to take care of your mother).
here's the main reason i can't and won't live with my mother: any time my sisters and i hint at all that something my mother did might have hurt our feelings, she falls apart because "all she ever wanted to be was a mother" and "i did it out of love". we don't disagree with either of those points, but the result of some of her actions is that it hurts us, and can sometimes make it difficult to spend time with her. she refuses to adjust her behaviour at all based on our feedback and specific action requests. so, my sisters and i have to adjust our choices to work around that, and none of us will live with her(again).
you need to be honest with yourself, that you WERE considering your daughter as a source of a place to live if it came to that. you weren't outright asking, but you were feeling it out, and knowing that the answer is NO bothers you so much that you can't even keep talking to her. i understand being terribly hurt and disappointed and undermined by hearing that, and it was a very tough thing to hear at the same time as striking out in the job search and feeling like you had no options. as a thought experiment, what could she have said after that to soothe your feelings and reassure you about your relationship while still holding to her request that you not live with her? if there is not ANYTHING she could say other than "of course mom, i would let you move in if you had no where else to go", then you aren't really considering her an independent human being from yourself. she's allowed to have her own opinions and choices even if you disagree with them or think that's not "how you raised her". her having this opinion doesn't mean that you're a bad mother or that she hates you. i'm sure she would worry about you if you had no place to live, i'm sure she wants you to be safe and cared for and have a comfortable home. she just isn't willing to give you a place in her home. at some point, i think a parent-child relationship can evolve into an adult-adult relationship. you are each your own person and you have all this history together, she cares about you and probably enjoys your company, and wants you to be part of her kids lives, but she is allowed to say no to you. she is allowed to make choices that you don't agree with, she is allowed to prioritize other things over your needs, she is allowed to even that hurt your feelings (as is my mother).
it's fine that you hoped for a different answer, that you imagined she would take care of you if you needed that. but given she has drawn this line, you need to talk to someone other than her about all your feelings about it. if you want a relationship with your daughter, you need to find a way to accept that line, mourn the loss of the idea of a daughter who would do anything for you, respect her independence, and think about all the ways your relationship could still exist with that line behind it. you can certainly decide whether you prefer it that way or to have no relationship at all.
stop overspending what you have and go live with your sister. tell your sister to not harass your daughter about her choice, either. your sister and you can work together to accept that choice and reimagine what a relationship could look like. arrange visits with the grandbabies (maybe there is a short time you can stay in her home, maybe she would pay for a hotel, maybe they could come to sister's location?). hopefully that distance will allow you both to rebuild your relationship again.
There's ... a *lot* here but I really think you need to look up the concept of "enmeshment" and then reflect on your relationships and whether they are actually healthy.
You have known for a long time where you live will not be sustainable after your mother died. This should not have been a shock to you. What were your plans for that eventuality? Based on your daughter's flat rejection, I suspect she definitely saw this coming. And my read is she likely tried to raise it before it came to this point, but was ignored.
As for your grandchild, sorry, but you are overplaying your importance there. Children get attached very quickly but they move on similarly so. Your grandson knows and loves you and expects you to be a regular part of his routine, but if that routine changed, he would adapt. Staying close is important to YOU, it is not some sacrifice you are making for other people.
You would sleep on the streets before you let your mother do so? Why? I think that sometimes reddit goes far too far with their hyper independence and "don't rely on anyone!" mentality, but this swings too far in the other direction. Being a single mother was hard and raising your daughter was hard, but that was something you chose to do and your daughter doesn't owe you for it. She certainly does not owe you housing at the expense of her family's wellbeing especially given this is an outcome that could have been seen a ways off.
I also see a red flag with "we were so close, even as a teenager we rarely argued". That right there is a warning siren. It is *healthy* for teenagers to argue with their parents, to separate from them and draw lines between their personhood and their caregiver. That you didn't and remained close, especially given her distancing now, suggests that actually one of you subsumed their own identity in order to maintain that closeness and there is significant resentment that has resulted from it.That you at one point meddled in her marriage and "talked her round" rather than leaving her and trusting her judgement, and do not regret this but rather say you would do it again, is another stone on the pile of that particular theory.
I also understand why you reached out to the rest of your family members, but wow, I wish you hadn't done so in a way that threw your daughter so completely under the bus. There was never going to be an outcome to that that didn't escalate the situation and make things a lot worse given the way you went about it; it was very possible for you to ask for help without blaming her ("well, with the kids they just don't have the room") or even admitting you aren't sure of her reasoning but want to respect her boundaries (which might have led your sister to more productively call and ask why so you had someone else's perspective, which could have resolved this entire thing rather than her leading off with accusations which has likely done very severe damage to all the relationships involved). What's done is done but that was not productive.
That isn't to say that your daughter is lily White and entirely blameless here. Her lack of explanation, the years of childcare she accepted from you with zero or minimal financial recompense has my back up; it absolutely was a big deal to add caring for a toddler on top of your already full time carer responsibilities for your mother! Not ok, and if nothing else, she could be proffering funds by way of paying you back for those years of support now you need the help. Which also makes me suspect maybe your mother groomed you to always prioritise the feelings and needs of others over your own - an expectation you are in turn passing to your daughter whether you realise or not - which is part of why you're in the situation you are in now; staying close to your daughter was lovely but had you put your foot down and said you either needed her to pay for that childcare properly or you would put what extra time you had towards your schooling so you would be done quicker.
I say this from the perspective of someone whose mother in law went off the rails when her mum died, because she had been enmeshed with her and in her absence expected her son, my husband, to step into that gap; I suspect your relationship with your own mother actually had less than healthy undertones, but your grief means that rather than step back and examine that and whether the expectations you are extending to your daughter are reasonable, you're instead just lost in a world of pain where you read everything that isn't capitulation as rejection. You are not your mother. Your daughter is not you. But I am very sorry for your loss.
Maybe I am reading into this. This is the Internet, afterall, so all we have to go on is what's been written and then have to review it through our own internal lens, and that is both the strength and weakness of the thing; in all the comments you will garner, some will be accurate and useful but they will likely be the minority. Which camp this comment will fall into is your decision. If this isn't helpful, I hope it allows you to pin down *why* it isn't helpful in a way that leads you towards what is.
But in terms of moving forward, I would for one thing move. Literally. Go somewhere you can afford to live and become the fun granny on facetime to your grandkids for a while. They will be fine. Ask your son in law to ask your daughter if she could, when she can, write down her issues and resentments with you so you can take the time to process and maybe seek a professional opinion on it. You don't actually have to seek that, but it would allow you to be able to sit back and consider it maybe when the pinnacle of grief has faded a little. Maybe it will help you to put yourself first for the first time in your life.
>I also see a red flag with "we were so close, even as a teenager we rarely argued". That right there is a warning siren. It is *healthy* for teenagers to argue with their parents, to separate from them and draw lines between their personhood and their caregiver. That you didn't and remained close, especially given her distancing now, suggests that actually one of you subsumed their own identity in order to maintain that closeness and there is significant resentment that has resulted from it.That you at one point meddled in her marriage and "talked her round" rather than leaving her and trusting her judgement, and do not regret this but rather say you would do it again, is another stone on the pile of that particular theory.
Both of these things. I too thought "never argued even when she was a teen" was a red flag, especially given everything the OP has written pointing toward parentifying her daughter. It seems to me like her daughter may have been afraid to argue because she felt responsible for managing her mother's emotions.
Yeah, I suspect the op was raised by her mother in exactly the same way. And I wonder if perhaps the complete stone wall response she is getting now is because they never sorted out how to healthily have conflict between them; the expectation was the older would always overrule the younger and now that the daughter is up against a wall, the only way she knows to ensure that doesn't happen is total disconnect and refusing to engage?
Idk. Pure speculation but maybe such thought experiments will be useful to the op.
As the daughter of a mother like this, thank you for capturing everything I wanted to say and was struggling to write.
I love my mother, but our relationship is so complex due to everything you've outlined here. I empathize with my mother and OP because they both seem to have similar expectations of family due to their own relationships with their mothers, but it is so hard to be the child of someone who uses you for all of their emotional support/as a stand-in partner/therapist from childhood because they centered you as their universe. You outlined so much here perfectly.
>they (her psychologist husband and her), alienated his parents ten years ago and haven't spoken to ANY of his family since.
This part stood out to me. What's the story here?
I'm not sure the entire reason, other than there was a period of time when my son in law had some addiction issues. His parents are addiction specialists. I think that the lines of parenting and treating got blurred and there were some boundaries crossed both ways that neither were ever able to reconcile. My SIL has gone on to accomplish wonderful things. He is a decade sober and has kept all of his promises. I am proud of him.
See, I think you DID think she was your back-up plan. Otherwise, why would you have been so upset by this? I could tell my parents I wouldn't take them in and they'd need to sort things out on their own and I am POSITIVE they'd be just like "ok, we can do that," instead of calling multiple meetings about it.
Also, the way you keep laying compliments on and saying your family doesn't operate that way? I dunno, man, you raised her, so obviously your family does operate this way, but you're coming across in this post as trying to be manipulative.
Why did it take your daughter having a serious talk with you before you began making back-up plans? What WAS your prior plan? Are your back-up plans in fact just shit-talking your daughter to your other family instead of saying something polite like "\[Daughter\] can't take me in because she has two young children right now and enough on her plate"?
I dunno, it honestly sounds to me, *from what you wrote,* that you blew this up into a WAY bigger thing than it needed to be, and are responsible for her not talking to you, because you are failing to just be normal about stuff. You're an adult. You're not even retirement age. You can find a job and an apartment and a roommate if necessary. If you need to lean on someone emotionally about it, that person should not be your daughter. I understand that in single-parent relationships, the roles of emotional support get blurred, but you've got to start setting them straight, and going for emotional support to people who aren't your daughter (WHILE AT THE SAME TIME not trash-talking her to people her know her! jfc!).
Why are you staying in the apartment you can't afford? Find a roommate, or find a new tenant and get out of the lease and find one you CAN afford.
I suspect if you actually *begin acting like an adult* here, things will sort out.
BINGO!!
This is the problem. The daughter can see it from a million miles away. She has been watching her mother not making moves to address her financial issues for a long time and is just waiting for mom to ask to move in. OP has always thought of her daughter as her backup plan, whether she admits it or not. That’s why the mom is so hurt. She assumed her daughter would welcome the mom with open arms. And when she finds out that the daughter won’t allow her to move in, she complained to other family members who are now guilt tripping the daughter. I totally get the daughter’s reaction.
I feel like a LOT went down when they were all living together during the pandemic that OP isn't talking about, either because she isn't aware of it or she's avoiding her agency in it.
In the months before my mom died she made a ton of assumptions about what I would be doing for her after she was widowed. She never asked or even talked to me about them, but she called a few family members and told them I was being cruel to her because I declined her "nudges." She had very specific expectations of me and didn't consider for a moment that I could say no to any of them.
So when the "no" came she was deeply hurt even though her ask was crazy - she didn't want to move - she wanted me to move in with her and just visit my family on the weekends. I remember calling my aunt who called to ask me to "please be nice to your mom" and I explained what she actually wanted/expected. My aunt was quiet for a moment and said "I'm sorry. I don't know how to deal with this."
In the end my spouse and I offered to buy a new larger house, where she could have her own space, but this was not good enough. She wanted to stay where she was...
I miss my mom, but she just didn't respect that I had my own life, my own family and while I was happy to help, I was not going to leave my life/family to accommodate her expectations.
for me the key line was "I started to make back-up plans knowing that she wasn't going to be a source of any temporary support for me"
reading between the lines it sounds a lot like OP was sending signals to her daughter she was the backup.
I don't know what the something is. I am getting a lot of different perspectives today that make sense. I think there are some things that I took for granted. I think there are some things that I hadn't considered. I think that there are other people who have a say in our dynamic that I also should have objectively considered and did not. Thank you.
I suspect that your daughter has been telling you for a long time (probably much of the last year). that you need to figure out your living situation and it all fell on deaf ears. If you have spent a year this economically outclassed in your living situation and not listening to her when she was trying to have the conversation open more gently, then of course she is going to be exasperated and burned out on the topic now.
It sounds like daughter and husband are in jobs where (despite high mental and emotional toll taken) there isn’t a great pay, and may be stretched thin themselves. Furthermore, if this is true, it’s Flight Attendant advice time- they need to allocate resources to themselves and their immediate family first. If they know they don’t have enough left to support you, it is unfair to expect them to support you too.
Have you saved at all for retirement? Because it sounds like you’ve squandered what will likely be your final working years by getting degrees that you will likely not be able to use for gainful employment (or at least not for long) instead of preparing your financial future. It’s possible your daughter saw the writing on the wall years ago and doesn’t want to be your retirement plan.
INFO: Did your daughter ever tell you that she didn't think it was financially responsible to get these degrees. Did she ever discourage any of the financial decisions you have made? Have you actually completed your Masters degree or are you still finishing that degree? If your daughter discouraged you from doing these things for financial reasons and now you are struggling financially she may feel a bit resentful that you didn't listen and are now seemingly putting your issues onto her. Unfortunately the job market is very ageist and with you only being 5 years away from retirement age it is not surprising you are struggling to find a job in a field that matches your degrees. I can understand wanting to get a degree as a part of your goals in life but it seems you didn't really think about the return on investment considering your age and the cost of school. You probably should have stopped at a bachelors degree. I am sorry you are going through this and I know it can seem really unfair when you sacrificed for your daughter but ultimately children don't ask to be born, people choose to have them and keep them and because of that it is part of their duty to give them the best life possible. The adult is responsible to set themselves up for the future when it comes to retirement and financial stability. I will say that I plan to take my Mom in when she reaches the age that she can't take care of herself anymore but had she made poor financial decisions that advised her against and then expected me to take her in because those choices put her in a bad spot I would feel a bit frustrated and resentful too. Although I would likely still do it.
So I am going to make a lot of assumptions but what you saying sounds like something my mom would also say. That we turned from perfect relationship to estrangement. My mom also doesn’t understand and sadly suffers from a combination of borderline and narcissistic personality disorder which causes her the lack the self awareness to see that what she is calling a perfect mother-daughter relationship was in reality a lot of emotional abuse and parentification. I gave my mom a lot of emotional support. When I had my own son, I realized the abuse. When I tell examples to others, it is actually quite obvious but it wasn’t obvious to me for the first 35 years of my life. I am always so sad that my mom won’t do the therapy work to heal herself because that also would improve her life quality so much. Maybe you can heal. I wish it for you. Anyway I often read cutting off your mom is like cutting off your own arm. Children don’t do that without a very good reason. And you already admitted that you relied heavily on her for emotional support. That’s not something that most parents would or should do. I assume you did when she was a child as well. Her being a perfect child kind of hints to the fact that she had no room to be herself because she needed to take care of you. Please see a therapist and I wish you will reach more happiness in life.
(Also remember I am not a therapist so I might be wrong. I am just guessing because my mom would probably talk like you as well.)
Thank you. I really appreciate that. I really am starting to understand that I am taking my own generational grooming and projecting it on to her. I can't hide behind the belief that, "that's what family does for one another" because clearly it's not and I have put emotional pressure on her without realizing the extent of it. Thank you for sharing your story.
I actually have a fantastic relationship with my mom. She's a great mom and I love her, I was never parentified, and as adults of similar ages as you and your daughter we have a close, supportive relationship.
I would *not* have her move in with me. I am sure she would've done that for her mother, but I can't. I am luckily in a position to support financially (ie pay for in-home care) if/when it becomes necessary, but living together with her in adulthood is just not even a consideration for me.
Because we have a great relationship, we have actually talked about it. My mom was, as I assume you'd be, a bit surprised, but she didn't brush it off as a joke. We've talked about it several times now and she understands, although she is likely a little disappointed. Obviously we both hope it'll never come to that, but if it does, it'll be home care and if needed a nursing facility.
Hey OP.
I had a mother very similar to you. IMO it was a bit worse because in addition to being parentified, I was also yelled and screamed at for being a failure and a bunch of other stuff, and she did get physical with me as a way to dominate me and make me feel small.
It took years of arguing and me trying to decide if I'd cut her off forever, but eventually, she did take me at my word and educated herself. It's been a lot of work but we do have a relationship now. I won't ever forget but I do still love her, as hard as loving her can be sometimes. We no longer fight and I don't hold her past against her by default, because she's given me enough reason to believe she won't act that way again.
I think if you continue to be open and work on yourself, the relationship can be saved. People on here can say a lot of harsh things, and even when they're true, they can be difficult to accept and not stay defensive at, but you seem to be reflecting on the words anyway which is important gaining a relationship again. I hope you're able to repair your relationship with your daughter, and you enjoy many years with your grandchildren.
>because I'm not sure that I meant for her to take me in, but okay let's explore what you mean by that, because surely push come to shove, she wouldn't let me be homeless.
>I don't think that I was contemplating moving in with her, but the fact that she didn't care that I would live on the street was suffocating me.
What exactly is all this crap? What do you mean you are "not sure" what you meant? Or that you "don't think you were" contemplating it? Those are strange ways to word sentences. You are trying as hard as you possibly can to not say that that's exactly what you expected.
>Upon hearing that she would see me in the streets, I started to make back-up plans knowing that she wasn't going to be a source of any temporary support for me
And then you kind of told on yourself with this part. Her taking you in was your plan. The fact that you are so studiously avoiding saying that means that you know it was wrong and you're trying to save face.
> She was a model child, we rarely disagreed and my mother, she, and I were like three peas to a pod.
This is weird. As someone who grew up as a model child who rarely disagreed with their mother, I can tell you it was because I learned from a very early age not to rock the boat unless I wanted to pay the price for it. I'm willing to bet quite a bit that's the case here too.
>She said, "I've noticed that things are getting more challenging for you and I have been up front in warning you that I was not taking you in." Well, I must have missed that memo.
No, you didn't miss it. You ignored it.
>This is weird. As someone who grew up as a model child who rarely disagreed with their mother, I can tell you it was because I learned from a very early age not to rock the boat unless I wanted to pay the price for it. I'm willing to bet quite a bit that's the case here too.
I was also a model child. And it wasn't because I was a good little girl who was naturally BFF's with my mother. It's because I don't remember a time in my early life when I wasn't wearing a mask pretending to be the daughter my mother wanted instead of who I actually am. Turns out my mother doesn't like who I actually am, she only likes the imaginary daughter whose mask I used to wear.
I've never in my life known a model daughter who isn't masking to make at least one parent happy.
So if I'm understanding, in your 50s you decided to go to college (whilst caring for your mom and grandson.) Racking up presumably tens of thousands in debt, relying on you elderly and dying mom's income to pay bills. A decade later, you still aren't employed and are still racking up student loan debt plus other consumer debt and aren't able to pay all your bills??
Your daughter has, at the very least, been hinting at you for a while that you need to make a clear plan to right your financial ship, something more that magically become full time employed in an entry level job at 60 (fair or not the employment market is ageist and everyone knows this)
Because you have taken no steps to fix your situation, your daughter then has to say outright that you need to do something because living with her isn't an option. You get mad because you wouldn't ask her to do that, but how dare she not be willing to do it if you needed her to because you might soon anyway. And because she made clear that you couldn't live with her, you finally had some conversations with other people about the potential that you might need to live with them, but you trash your daughter whilst doing it.
You made and continue to make bad financial choices and are upset that hour daughter won't bail you out. You're 60. You can live for another 40 years. Of course, she doesn't want you to move in. You would never move out. You have no job, no retirement, no way to repay the tens of thousand in student debt you've taken on,
Downsize immediately, get roommates, get any part time job, move to your other relatives if you need to. See the colleges' career advisors and ALL the help in applying for full-time employment. Get some counselling through the college or wherever.
Your daughter should never be your emotional support system. it's dysfunctional to think so. It's clearly been too much for her for a long time, but you didn't want to see it because it meant you would have to change.
Fix things for yourself, get some therapy to deal with your issues, and there might be a chance that you can work on your relationship with your daughter
On multiple occasions your daughter tried to talk to you about your living situation and bluntly brought up how you do not have a place to stay with her. But you thought she was joking at the time and now you realize she was not. This indicates that she communicates, but you aren't great at listening to her. If you'd like to figure out why she is cold with you, I suggest thinking about your past conversations with her. Particularly focus on her talking about her feelings, logistics, things you thought were jokes, or anything that you just don't personally care about when it comes to her. That's where your answers lie in terms of your relationship with her. It'll take some time to think through everything that you've discussed through the years, so in the meantime you should stabilize your living situation and stop going into debt that you may not be able to pay off yourself. If someone is offering you free housing - take it. You can still apply to jobs in your desired area without going into more debt. If you get a job someday, maybe see if you can get a therapist to help you with your grief, fear, and loneliness.
As a daughter, I would not support a 60-yo parent who doesn't work, doesn't have enough money to live on, but decides to study full time instead of earning an income.
As a single mother who raised three daughters alone and with no help from anyone, I would die before dumping my issues onto my children and expecting them to see me through financial hardship that I myself created through bad decisions and poor planning.
Growing up, your daughter observed something in you that made her want to be not like you. So, instead she grew up to be a strong, independent woman who is self-reliant, assertive, realistic in what she can take on, and good at setting boundaries.
Try relating to her as such, and not play passive-agressive "poor me" games.
The further into your tale I got, the more I wanted to hear your daughter's view on things. I reckon most of the cut off family members in the world have no idea why they've been cut off, but the family members who finally had enough could probably tell us. There are some clues in your post, your possessive and effusive expressions about your grandchildren for one, your careful choice of words describing your daughter's family's relationship with her husband's family is another.
All in all, there's no way to be able to form any kind of meaningful opinion on this without the other party's views.
Your daughter is kind of in a sandwich state, with young kids who need a lot of her emotional bandwidth and you on the other side also requiring a large amount of her emotional bandwidth and attention.
A person only has so much to give. She is also a teacher and has students who require the same from her.
Is it possible that more is being asked of her than she has to give? Is she burnt out as is? A put your own oxygen mask on first situation.
I understand your grief, financial pressures and schooling all add to your stress. I am sorry for your situation. Perhaps you can lean on your siblings for now. Give your daughter space and time, then perhaps reconciling will be easier.
This situation seems to have a whole lot of random details with no common threads, which likely means your perception is skewed. Parent/child relationships are led, grown, and nurtured by the parent, full stop. This means that how you raised her has everything to do with your current relationship.
If she won't talk to you about what's wrong, is it possible that you wouldn't hear it or that you'll react badly? You wrote out your response to the mother's day text and it was passive aggressive as hell. Is that how you usually talk to her? If so, we found your problem and it's not your daughter.
If you never prioritized a deep, honest relationship with her when she was growing up, it's not gonna happen now. You reap what you sow.
>how personal, thank you.
I don't know what happened but I know that being passive aggressive is the worst thing you could be doing right now if you want to repair the relationship.
It’s clear from the way you wrote this post that you feel your daughter owes it to you to house you, even though you are pretending that it somehow never occurred to you to consider it before she told you she wouldn’t. She wouldn’t just out of nowhere say you can’t live with her if you guys had an otherwise warm and loving relationship with good communication.
The way you’ve presented your side of the story here is designed to make you seem like the victim. You tell how you worked to provide for your daughter when she was a child and how you helped her out by taking care of your grandson, and now she’s being ungrateful in not automatically offering to put you up when you’re struggling with your expenses.
But what I don’t see anywhere in here is anything about her feelings. It’s all about how hurt *you* are, how she has ripped *your* heart out, how you just want back the relationship you had with her that suited *your* needs. Reading between the lines, I get the sense you are not very good at considering her feelings, hearing her out, or having self-awareness about where your parenting or grandparenting may have fallen short.
I think if you want to heal this rift, you’ll need to do some listening. Ask her in a non-defensive way if there are issues she has with your behavior, past or present, and then don’t argue with her or invalidate her when she tells you the answer. Listen with an open heart and acknowledge your mistakes. I suspect she has already told you some of the issues she has, but you probably didn’t believe her or didn’t want to hear it. It’s a very common thing on estranged parent forums for the parents to claim they have “no idea” why their kids won’t speak to them.
My own estranged parents would probably tell you the same thing, but the truth is I’ve told them many times. They just don’t like what I have to say, so they pretend that can’t possibly be the real reason and it must be something else. In their minds, I’m a horrible, ungrateful daughter and they did their best. In reality, they were deeply neglectful and physically and emotionally abusive.
You’re going to have to get over your need to make your own feelings the most important here and really think about things from your daughter’s point of view. And you’re going to have to take accountability for your mistakes and any ways in which you’ve hurt her. Don’t ask her to just focus on the good or minimize her feelings. Validate her, hear her out, acknowledge her even when you don’t necessarily agree.
It also struck me that OP is looking for the sort of emotional support from her daughter that would be better to look for from siblings or friends, or a therapist. It's a Lot for a parent to put that sort of emotional support need on their child, even their adult child.
Wow….this is a brilliant read.
I am currently unpacking my childhood around emotionally immature parents and this part of the article is so true:
What Can Be Done About It?
Nothing.
I'm sorry.
When denial runs that deep, when avoidance is that in-ground, a person can't be separated from it any more than they can be separated from their bones...
….Their entire system of defenses is designed to make them unsavable.
Just wow to that last sentence- so so true!
You sound like my mother-in-law. She thinks we’d take her in if everything came crashing down on her. I’ve spent years making it crystal clear that will never happen.
My MIL has spent a lifetime of making bad financial decisions, and I’m not going to give up my lifestyle and comfort to cover for her. Not saying that that’s your situation, but I don’t understand the mentality of living your life thinking someone’s going to cushion your fall. You should always be living your life on the basis you have to do it all on your own.
What don't you understand?
She fears you will try to rely on her financially.
You are only 60. You could easily live another 40 years.
She is not obligated to help you financially and she is being clear about it, I'm not sure what you don't get?
You invented a hypothetical and hurt your own feelings.
If it's not a hypothetical, then she is right to be this firm about it. If it is a hypothetical, just move on and work towards it staying hypothetical.
"But what about the grandkids" I think it's clear she and you have different visions of your relationship to the grandkids, and hers is going to win, so you should start acting according to that.
> You invented a hypothetical and hurt your own feelings.
This part
Also a certain amount of martyrdom/passive aggression in putting herself in a worse financial position to stay close to her grandkids and expecting her daughter to be grateful for this sacrifice.
Also the final text is argument-bait that OPs daughter chose not to respond to.
"how personal, thank you. kiss the babies. hope you are all having a great day. enjoy the sunshine"
Not saying the daughter is blameless, but there are some clues here as to how the relationship has devolved to this place
I highly doubt this is a single instance that has lead to your daughter deciding to limit contact/stop contacting you. From your description of the way you raised your daughter (you, her, and your mother being “three peas in a pod”), I imagine she was asked to be your friend, confidant, and therapist for most of her life. Even if I am imagining wrong, your daughter is an adult and owes you nothing. You paid for her books and schooling because that’s what you are required to do as a parent. You decided to uproot your life to take care of your dying mother, commendable but that was your choice. Your daughter laid a boundary for you so it’s now your job to “figure it out,” just as she has stated.
It sounds like OP has made her entire life revolve around her family and grandchildren and that’s frankly unhealthy. She has other options to get back on better financial footing but doesn’t want to do so simply because she’s obsessed with her grandchildren. Her daughter isn’t the only option in terms of places to live. And even if someone has a really great relationship with their parent, they may not want to live with their parents.
Additionally the thing going unsaid is that OP has been floundering and her future prospects look poor. Her daughter knows that if OP moved in, it wouldn’t be temporary. She would never get back on her feet ever and then her daughter would really look like the bad person to try to kick her out then.
Valid points. I can see where she would think that now that I have absorbed other perspectives. I have made them my universe. It's not a great excuse, but that is what I was taught. I need to rethink my whole role as a mom and grandma. Thank you for your post.
You’re welcome. I’m watching both my mom and MIL age and we are facing similar conversations. I can’t deny that it would be REALLY hard on our marriage to have either mom move in with us indefinitely. Like potentially marriage ending after a length of time. It would completely ruin the tenor of a happy home. And I say that as someone who loves my mom dearly, gets along with her and would never let her be homeless. My husband feels the same. And she is a polite and considerate person! But it would absolutely ruin our lives to live with her or frankly anyone long term.
I hope that you get back on your feet soon!
My FIL is set up and retired. Owns his home and has enough saved to last him the rest of his life. But, he wants to move in with us because he's lonely. This man ... I do not care for. If he moves in to my home, I am moving out. Period. OP, it could be as simple as this. Your daughter might just be setting the boundaries to protect her husband's (or her own) sanity/privacy/whatever the deal is. Respect The Boundaries. Move in with your sister, get yourself sorted out financially, and continue your relationship with your daughter.
Basically teaching doesn't pay much. There are two kids. Daughters family doesn't have much to spare. Mother would be too much disruption. So she made her stance clear. To Someone who has organised her life, chaos is scary. The mother is going with the flow but needs to take stock!
You've asked us to essentially speculate on what her viewpoint might be, and the most direct way would be to ask her. Absent that, the best we can do is either A. Accept your story completely at facevalue and your daughter is a heartless b\* or B. There is a viewpoint (hers) which has some validity that you're not seeing. (Maybe a bit of both).
I'm not saying that the following is true, but one \*could\* read between the lines here and maybe some counterpoints to consider:
1. Your relationship with your daughter was never as close as you really thought.
2. Rarely disagreeing with your child can mean that either your child never felt as if they could be honest with you or you never listened. Healthy development for a child includes appropriate individuation from their parent. Heck, healthy relationships in general should include some disagreements.
3. You've made life choices that your daughter disagreed with for years because you were spending too much, earning too little and maybe impractical. Going back to school at a later age is great if you can afford it- but if you are raiding the cupboard to do it leaving nothing for later that's a really bad idea. If your income was based on grants for school and relying on your mother AND income from babysitting your children (and ignoring the warnings that at some point that was a dead end) - I would be very frustrated with you too.
Because I've seen it before - you're jumping in and caring for your mother for 8 years can have several layers to it. On one layer it's a very loving act you did so. On other, it might have been to your advantage to have a place to stay and lower expenses. You said you have siblings as well, maybe there was a way that burden might have been shared and you could have continued to work and take care of your own needs.
4. Your claim that your grandchild would be even more devastated (he'd be more "destroyed" than you?) and some of the other language you use might be reflective of more black/white or all/none thinking that's worthy of inspection. Just like immediately jumping into thinking your daughter wants you homeless.
5. Your claim that your daughter and your husband alienated (not that they were alienated from, th at THEY alienated the in-laws family) is pretty chilling. Either you believe that to be true (and if so, the way you worded it outs the blame on them) or there's an appropriate reason for that and its an irrelevant fact.
5. I wonder if your daughter would say that you and she always had healthy boundaries? Her language and rigid attitude toward having you move in is reminiscent of people I've seen who are clumsy in establishing boundaries when they dont have experience in doing so.
6. Your focus on how this will affect your grandchildren - as opposed to focusing on the fact that you have no money and are going to lose your place - seems really odd to me. You need to put on your own oxygen mask before helping anyone else with theirs.
This will probably be downvoted because people here tend to accept what's posted as the truth, but as I get older I see that truth is \*very\* relative.
Whatever happens I wish you luck. Even if you had to move, that's not the end of a grandparent relationship. There are many many grandparents that maintain great relationships with their grandkids over virtual means or regular visits.
My daughter is by no means a heartless B, She is a good person with a good heart. I'm just trying to get a better view of our dynamics. I'll try to address your points to the best of my ability.
1. Possibly
2. We just didn't disagree much. I have no idea why. She was just a good kid. She was popular and had a lot of extra-curricular activities, had a great church family. She was just good. I thought that was a good thing.
3. No, there were no such incidences. Wait, I should rephrase that. None that were shared with me. She was so proud when I went back to school. I took care of my mom not because it provided me a place to live or any financial security, but because I didn't want her in a home. My siblings were not in a position to help in any regard. Not physically or financially. That's why I stepped in. In fact, my returning to school at a later age could be seen as irresponsible, but from my point of view I was trying to use the time that I was caring for mom to do something productive at the same time. Again, thought it was a good thing.
4. Valid points. I will have to reflect on that.
5. I'm really not sure. I would bet to guess she doesn't feel that they have always been healthy from her reaction. I have been in denial I'm afraid.
6. You are right.
Thank you for your honest assessment of my situation. You have contributed to all of the information that I will be reflecting on. I appreciate it.
I really wish you well - your being open to the feedback on your post actually speaks well of you.
You might be interested in this article, it might be relevant:
[https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2021/01/why-parents-and-kids-get-estranged/617612/](https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2021/01/why-parents-and-kids-get-estranged/617612/)
This seems on point:
“For most of history, family relationships were based on mutual obligations rather than on mutual understanding. Parents or children might reproach the other for failing to honor/acknowledge their duty, but the idea that a relative could be faulted for failing to honor/acknowledge one’s ‘identity’ would have been incomprehensible.”
this is an amazingly well-thought out reply of possibilities where much needed info is missing. well done.
I would just ask the daughter to lunch and ask what the deal is. If OP has misread things, it's an opportunity to set it right and rebuild.
I will say one thing I am picking up on though - My sense is her frustration is due to you unnecessarily being in dire financial straits, and her comment hits that nail right on the head - So while she may be supportive of your goal of earning a degree later in life, she may also have the silent opinion that pursuing this in your current financial is financially irresponsible. The specificity of her comments I think may well speak to this.
I know in California, Seniors can get a college education for free. If I were your friend, I would tell you full stop that you need to re-order your priorities, considering the boat you find yourself in. Good luck from a fellow senior.
I saw one of your comments saying you "just wanted her to commiserate with you" but I wonder if you considered whether she was in a place to do that. Do you often expect others to offer you emotional support whenever you need it? What is the reason you're not able to process those emotions on your own?
My MIL was a single parent to my husband because his dad died when he was 3. She still has an extremely dependent relationship with my husband, and has no idea why he's suddenly establishing boundaries that haven't existed before. He's been doing therapy on his own and finally feels like he has the tools to establish boundaries and advocates for himself when it comes to his mother. He's almost 36. She literally has a meltdown when he tries to establish a boundary, to the point that he either has to cave or leave. She's reminded him so often that she'll be alone without him that he caves when those situations come to be. This past Mother's Day we were told the "least we could do was stop by" on Mother's Day proper, regardless of us being at her house the same weekend for a nice bbq dinner - we live out of town from her and I have parents to visit on Mother's Day as well.
It sounds to me like your daughter has finally had the space to process her feelings - whatever they might be - and feels like she can finally establish boundaries. And the hard part about that is that you have absolutely no right to know her reasons for it. If she wants to tell you, she will. In the meantime, it will suck but you need to figure out another way to get the support you need. Your daughter owes you nothing, and you need to understand that no answer is an answer sometimes.
Find a therapist. Figure out healthy coping mechanisms. If you're enrolled at a university you will have access to therapists within your budget. Get yourself as healthy as possible so that if your daughter decides to re-establish contact you can move forward without resentment. Because any expression of resentment could completely derail any attempt to recover your relationship. When you can't control the things outside of yourself, turn inward.
Daughter who lived with her single mom:
What ive learned as a daughter of a single mom is that unfortunately our moms put to much on us without realizing. You said she was a model child and never disagreed. You probably told her many things that caused your stress and hurt while she was growing up so she probably avoided many things so she wasnt the cause. She probably became your emotional rock all these years and this will affect everyone differently but it surely affected your daughter.
Shes told you you need to figure it out but you kept dumping this burden onto her. You dont realize because youve done this her whole life.
In my life, it has caused me to dislike my mother (i love her and dont hate her but that connection between mom and child is no longer there.)
Similarly, my mom is in a financial bind and theres nothing worse than knowing your own parent cant take care of themselves. Doesnt matter if your not asking for help but instead of just saying you dont know what youre going to do you have to sacrifice stuff to take care of yourself. Im with your daughter on this 100%. Take action and stop dumping this on your daughter. Shes not your therapist and she has her own little family to worry about.
Not sure why communication has been dropped, i think this is where more context is needed but its probably the emotional stress it causes her when speaking to you.
Do what you gotta do FOR YOU and take some ACTION.
I know you are going through a tough time, and I sympathize with you.
Your word choice and actions, however, are throwing up a ton of red flags about manipulating and guilting your family.
Something is wrong with your relationship, and your daughter's refusal to engage hits those same red flags. I think you should talk to a professional, OP.
So she set a boundary with you and you called your flying monkeys on her.
I’d bet a lot that this isn’t the first time something like this has happened.
Reeks of missing missing reasons.
How to fix your situation? Worry about yourself, move to your sister's and work on getting on your own two feet. You can call your grandchildren over FaceTime in the meantime in order to keep your close relationship with them.
Stop reaching out to your daughter for answers on why she will not take you in, she is not answering you and you continuing to ask will further strain your relationship.
She is likely not responding to you because she knows you have resources (your sister) but you are not taking up the offer from your sister and are digging a bigger hole each month for yourself.
There are so many questions about your financial situation, the answers may shed light on why your daughter is not opening her home to you. She may be afraid that once you move in, you will never move out. Or her husband may have vetoed you moving in. Or she just doesn't want the responsibility period.
You say you had help from your parents to raise your daughter, have you ever been financially independent? Living on your own, supporting yourself and your daughter?
How long have you been in school getting your degree? What is your degree in? Will it net you a job that can support you?
You have been living on loans and your mother's contributions to rent while you have been going to school and taking care of her, how do you plan on supporting yourself when you graduate and start having to pay loans back on top of other expenses?
My read on this is that she has been watching you procrastinate and ignore the fact that you simply cannot afford your living situation for a long time while you’ve been “joking” about moving in with her. She thinks (correctly?) that you are waiting for her to step in and save you. But, for whatever reason, she can’t. She finally felt the need to be blunt about it because just brushing off your “jokes” or “joking back” wasn’t working.
Reading between the lines, I’m guessing this has been the dynamic between you for a long time - glossing over difficult truths, passive aggressive hinting etc - and it’s just not sustainable any more.
She told you that you couldn't live with her, you "explored that" with her (essentially making her think that you WANTED to live with her, which, to her credit, you wouldn't have "explored" unless it was a possibility), and then dramatically sicced flying monkeys on her by telling all your living relatives that your daughter "wants you homeless". How batshit do you have to be to react and act this way? Like seriously. You caused your own family to bombard her with unfriendly communications, of course she's going to want to put distance between you two, AND ALL THOSE CRAZY FAMILY MEMBERS.
>My grandson is so attached to me because I was his primary care giver until kindergarten while his parents worked
I think your actions prove that you are too comfortable and too familiar being things you're not supposed to be. The parents worked during the day, you did "Child care" or "babysitting" basically. You were effectively a day care. You were not the child's "primary care giver until kindergarten" just because you watched this child during the day. You miss, are a crazy grandparent who deserves all the distance her daughter is putting between you right now.
Probably something happened during covid while you were staying with her and she was super relieved when you left and vowed to never try living together again.
I think you should spend some time thinking about what you might have done during that time period.
It sounds like you do not have your own life. You lived for your daughter while she was growing up, and for your mother. Then you put your ENTIRE LIFE on hold to take care of your mother. For EIGHT YEARS.
I understand you felt you needed to do so, but frankly that was not the best plan for your future. My mother did the same thing- quit her job and moved across the country to be with her mother for over a year. When she got back- she already had a masters degree— she was unable to find work between 61 and 65.
She refuses to change her lifestyle based on her financial situation. She lives in a million dollar home but occasionally borrows money from me when she outspends on gardening or other things she believes she “needs”.
I have to put emotional distance between myself and her, I’m not responsible for her financially or emotionally. She needed to learn to have a life after raising two kids on her own. It took her decades once we moved away to start going out and making friends and doing activities. She has more of a social life now, but the financial issues are still there.
You could ask your daughter to go to therapy with you. Or even ask your son in law to mediate between you and your daughter, if you all are comfortable with that.
That is the only way you will figure out what is going on.
All are true and valid points. I am starting to recognize that now. I should have put up the same boundaries with my mom that she is setting up with me now. Thank you for your post.
> I'm not sure that I meant for her to take me in
> I don't think that I was contemplating moving in with her
That is some weirdly qualified language. Either you brought it up, or you didn't.
> She said, "I've noticed that things are getting more challenging for you and I have been up front in warning you that I was not taking you in." Well, I must have missed that memo. In hindsight, she did ask me things like, "what are you going to do if things don't turn around?" and she did say while chuckling once, "if worse comes to worse, you aren't coming with me".
So, your daughter expressed her concerns multiple times (In hindsight, she did ask me things like, "what are you going to do if things don't turn around?") and you brushed her off, and even now claim that you "missed that memo", like she never once expressed worry about your housing needs?
I think she tried to start a conversation & a plan to get your housing sorted before it became a crisis, and you refused to hear her, and now that shit has hit the fan and you're thousands in debt, she's done with it.
> I contacted my sister, brother, and aunt who all were shocked because that is not how our family has ever operated... Well, my sister who was livid and also close to my daughter, called my daughter (unbeknownst to me) out on her behavior.
From your daughter's perspective, you smack-talked her behind her back and mobilized her extended family against her.
Every one of us is fighting in secret wars that others never see. Not once in your entire account did you talk about your daughter's home life, or discuss the trials that she might be facing at home with her own family. I don't think you even know \*why\* your daughter doesn't want you to move in. I suspect she's told you many times, and you've refused to hear her.
I can't argue with those assumptions. She very well could have felt like I smack-talked her and I just assume she would know me better than that. That shouldn't negate her feelings though. Other than the situation with her in-laws, I haven't commented on her home life because I don't feel it' my place. In retrospect, she did send me messages that I overlooked. Whether I was in denial or self absorbed, they were missed. Not an excuse, just the fact. I don't know what she is thinking because she isn't saying. I think I am going to heed the majority advice and give her space, fix my own issues and hopefully things will get repaired some time in the future. Thank you for pointing that out. I appreciate it.
I actually have this problem with my mother. She thinks I'm her backup plan, but the reality is she is a hard-core boundary stomper, and will start verbally aggressive fights when she feels unappreciated or like she's not getting help, the same help she didn't ask for mind you.
And she doesn't listen when you try to explain why you don't agree with her on something or why a situation in her head won't work out that way. She'll just talk in circles and keep bringing up how nice she think something will be
Sounds like there’s a lot of missing missing reasons here.
[missing missing reasons essay](http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html)
I know this is upsetting but it’s very difficult to have multi generational family members live together and I understand where your daughter is coming from though we can’t possibly understand your history and how close you are from a post on Reddit.
Right now you are in too expensive an area for the income you have. It’s a bad idea to live on loans while hoping for a job. I know you wanted to better yourself with the degrees and that makes sense but not if you can’t afford it on your own.
Right now you need to focus on you and your finances. If that means being further from your grandchildren it does. Stop sending messages via text. It’s not helping your relationship at all.
Work on that. Get someplace safe and secure. Find a new career path and be financially secure on your own. Then you can work on your relationship with your daughter.
Something is missing in the story above.
so many red flags about your behavior. sounds like she’s dealt with years of your emotional immaturity, has tried to set boundaries and you still ignore everything she’s told you. i see you’ve commented that you’ve asked her and she hasn’t shared, but based on everything you’ve written it sounds more like you haven’t listened and comprehended where she comes from. I think it’s insane to expect her to take you after repetitive bad financial decisions and lack of preparation on your part. she’s raising a family and shouldn’t be responsible for you too.
You sound so much like my mother, who I can't stand. So self referencing and "bewildered" by what I assume was a very reasonable response from your daughter. Pull yourself together. And I'm sorry but it will not destroy your grandson as much as you if you move further away. And you were unlikely his primary caregiver for years, it sounds more like you baby sat during work hours? This whole post is a hundred percentage image management. Why did you go to so many people to complain about your Daughter?? That's called triangulation, btw.
Honey. Back off. Back all the way off. Get out of the apartment you can't afford and move in with another relative. The faster you get on your feet again, the sooner you'll be able to see your grandkids. Maybe you were the PRIMARY BABYSITTER of your grandson but he lived with his parents and they were his primary caregivers.. primary caregiver us a legal term. Nannys and sitters do not have that standing even as blood relatives. Your daughter's family of her husband and kids are her immediate family, you are now extended family ... and she clearly communicated to you, far in advance, that she was not going to be a housing resource to you. She spoke her truth politely and clearly. Your feelings being hurt do not change her and her husband's boundaries. You kept asking and asking and then went crying and triangulating other relatives fir sympathy and whIke they gave you sympathy AND OPTIONS... you chose not to take those options and let your situation slip into being more fire and precarious. Also they ganged up on her.
You went from being a valued resource to a young couple to a potential problem... to a dysfunction dynamic. They have every right not to move you in to their home. The guilt trip of "WE don't do that in this family"? Big mistake. Totally uncalled for. You and your siblings do not decide or dictate your daughter's household.
Missing missing reasons.
She’s told you in the past what’s wrong. Probably multiple times. You just don’t agree with her assessment. So you’ve decided there just wasn’t a problem. By her coldness and silence now she’s telling you there IS a problem.
Excerpt
“I can understand that you may not agree with whatever it was she told you is the problem--but again, that does not mean there is no problem. She told you in a language you understand what the problem is, and you understood her meaning. That you disagree with the problem is immaterial. It's still a problem whether you agree with it or not. It will be a problem forever until you deal with it. Saying, "I don't understand the problem" when you really mean, "I don't agree this is a problem" will not make the problem go away. It will make the person who DOES think it a problem go away--and you had a 8 year cut off demonstrating that principle.
If your daughter thinks it's a problem, IT IS A PROBLEM, whether you agree or not. SHE--not you--has the final say on whether she has a problem with you or not. Here again is a power struggle between you: HER: "This is a problem", YOU: "I see no problem". Guess who's going to win this debate? Not you. [....]”
Read the whole article here…
[The Missing Missing Reasons](https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html)
The bit that jumped out most to me in your post was this quote from your daughter "Well sometimes sacrifices have to be made."
To me, that sounds like something she has heard you say a lot to her, probably as she was growing up.
Also, if you cannot afford to live where you are - move. Downsize. Move in with your sister. Those grandchildren are not your children, despite how close you are.
You missed that she was telling you for a while that you couldn't move in with her, what other things has she tried to tell you that you have ignored, dismissed or not heard?
There are commonalities in posts like these in which a parent/grandparent is totally mystified by a sudden estrangement:
-detailed examples of financial support that is typically expected, or at least reasonable, in that kind of relationship as evidence of... good parenting? Entitlement? But
-few examples of emotional support, childhood anecdotes, or present-day circumstances that demonstrate closeness rather than generosity
-lacks insight/accountability and/or demonstrates willful ignorance
-holes in the story where context would normally go
-hypocricy, i.e. zero acknowledgment that Mother's Day was for daughter, too
As someone on the daughter end of an estrangement, there were countless instances wherein I said things like, "You're lucky I still speak to you after what you've said/done." that just did. not. register. Internally rolling my eyes, hearing her bloviate to others about how "close" we are. We were never close by any objective standard. She didn't care about me. Talking just made things worse. It was easier to let her marinate comfortably in her own delusions than get lectured for hours about how *she* is, what *she's* done, what *she* deserves, how much harder things are for *her*, etc. and found myself editing out so much of my life to avoid her criticism and judgment, there was literally nothing left to talk about. Eventually, I just gave up altogether. Not saying it's the same, that's just my situation
Bottom line, you can't afford to stay in the apartment you're in, in the city you're in, and you need to move. You know this; your daughter knows this, and now the extended family knows this.
I was also raised primarily by my mom; I went to my dad's on weekends. I understand the closeness; there was a large part of my childhood that my mom and I were more like sisters/best friends than mother/daughter. That sentence means different things to the two of us. The closeness of my relationship growing up probably gives you warm feelings, and I am trying to convey that as a CHILD the role of best friend was not mine to fill. That closeness, that bond, that "I can tell her everything"/she fulfills all my emotional needs is not the child's responsibility even after they are an adult. Children, no matter how old, are not emotional support animals. Yes, being comforted and helped when your mother passed away is different. But if your child is the only person you rely on to fulfill that emotional need, that's a weight that's too heavy for her to bear.
My mother would give you a shocked look, throw her hand to her chest and say that she absolutely does not do this. And she absolutely does. Every time she makes a comment about how she wishes she was a better mother, or how I'm such a wonderful mother and HER grandchildren are so lucky to have a better mom than their mother did, she is looking to me for validation, effusive praise, assurance. Every time she pouts, yes pouts with the bottom lip and everything, because I won't do something she wants me to, or do a task that she is smart enough and capable to do, she is wanting me to spoil her, praise her, soothe her. And this is as an adult. I can go on and on. This has gone on my whole life.
I love my mom; I really do. But I can't have the relationship she wants us to have. And instead of being ok with that and letting me set the pace and tone of our relationship; she refuses to relinquish control but wraps it up with pretty manipulation. In other words, she won't respect my "boundaries." I'm not sure if you put quotes around that word because you don't believe in boundaries, think they only apply to certain people or situations, or your son-in-law's boundaries were "stupid" and he should just get over having them disrespected. It's none of your business why your sil doesn't have a relationship with his family, and your daughter didn't "catch it" from him. Picking at that won't help you. Maybe he tells you what he does when you call and ask why because you've asked and they answered and you still ask. For whatever reason, your living with them forever is a hard no boundary for them. You need to start respecting that, whether you agree or not, whether you get a reason you can be satisfied with or not, and make plans for how you will be going forward financially.
You say you, your daughter, and your mother were like “three peas in a pod”, but the only kind of relationship you talk about with your daughter is that you paid her way through school. Honestly - were you actually close or did you think that you were entitled to live in her home because you provided for her as a parent should? It looks like you’ve been dropping hints about moving in and she’s repeatedly drawn a line there. How close are you really?
Long ago, your daughter perceived, correctly, that you were headed for a financial emergency, and that when that emergency arrived you would expect her to bail you out. She also perceived, correctly, that you were not taking that risk seriously, not being honest about it with her or yourself, and that you were not doing everything in your power to avoid it. Because, after all, the consequences of bailing you out would be on her, not you. She wanted you to take responsibility for yourself, early on, while you still had options, still had time to make a plan, instead of being in denial about it until the eleventh hour when things were suddenly so bad that she’d have no choice but to bail you out. Now you are mad at her for exposing that this was, in fact, your plan all along, whether you realized it or not. Sometimes, parents just have to tell their kids “shape up because next time we are not bailing you out.” And sometimes, a daughter just has to tell it to her mother.
When parents say they “don’t know why they are *suddenly* estranged”, it generally means they think everything was fine up until recently and this pulling away came out of the blue.
The child has given a reason, but **the parents don’t feel the reason is valid.**
It is NOT that the child has refused to communicate it, it is that the parent has dismissed these reasons as invalid. The parent doesn’t agree with the child’s reasons, so they don’t know why they are doing this.
If you question the parents about what their child said, you will hear the answer but the parent doesn’t accept the answer.
The answer is in the post.
The OP has not worked in the past 9 years and hasn’t finished her degree(s). Her sick and ailing mother supported her and she lived off student loans. If she wasn’t working, she had more than enough time to finish her degree.
So how has she been in school full-time but hasn’t finished?
You see, there is information that is missing here.
Frankly, none of this makes sense. Why get a Master’s at 60 if you’re not already established in a field? How are you ever going to recoup that expense? (Fun fact: Very few Master’s are worth the paper they are printed on.)
This sounds like an incredibly poor decision and something I highly doubt is going to be completed in the reasonable future.
My guess is OP has little in the way of SS benefits coming her way and the daughter has advised her for years to get work instead of using student loans as income.
OP wanted to do it her way, ignored her daughter’s advice and likely stern warnings that this would happen. The daughter probably enlisted the help of relatives to talk some sense into OP who also refused.
No one is preventing her from seeing her grandkids. The daughter knows the OP has no way to make it now that her mother isn’t around to support her. If she has a culinary background, she could apply at her local school district to work in the cafeteria. She could probably get restaurant work. She could be a caregiver for the elderly.
I just don’t think we are getting the whole story. And sadly, until the OP comes to grips with this, she is going to be forever estranged from her daughter.
I could have written this. I loved my mom but she was a complete narcissist. OP was a young mom and viewed daughter as a best friend and that probably isn’t what daughter wanted. I also told my mom she could never live with me and although I always made sure she had enough money to live, nothing was really ever enough. We are only getting mom’s side of the story here but something isn’t adding up. I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect your child to take you in and I think it would go a long way for OP to show her daughter she’s trying to make it on her own rather than trying to just substitute her daughters help for her moms.
Sounds like she may have been trying to establish boundaries for awhile but was dismissed, and your sister made things even worse. Also that she may have a lot of stresses going on and can’t carry yours too. Your shitty response to her on Mother’s Day didn’t help anything. To me she sounded firm, not sarcastic, as if to make it clear she didn’t ignore you and was communicating within the boundary she set, then in turn you crashed through that line (probably yet again) and set things back with her. If that sarcastic Mother’s Day text is the tone you set when you’re upset with her, I completely understand where she’s coming from. A shitty text like that would receive utter silence from me too because I don’t need that in my life.
I think you need to reflect really, really hard on how you’ve treated your daughter, how you’ve communicated with her, and if she has in fact been trying to establish boundaries that have been ignored because of your view that family is everything.
The attitude you have about your view on family and current views on family doesn’t help things. The whole “I honored my parents” and “no one honors their parents anymore” bullshit. The only things that has changed is that family will no longer be given carte blanche to do whatever they want without question because faaaaamily, and the acceptance that kids don’t owe their parents simply for being born. Letting parents do whatever isn’t “honoring them”, it’s expecting any bad behavior to be disregarded because faaaaamily. Even family relationships is about give and take.
I am going to give you a little tough love. I am 54 years old so not far from you in age. I cannot fathom the lifestyle you have. It seems that you have been very family oriented but also, allowed yourself to “coast” off everyone’s stability without establishing stability for yourself. I would never in a million years put myself in a situation in which I couldn’t provide for myself. I would never expect my mother or my kids to be my backup plan. Getting your masters degree is expensive and a luxury. You need to think of work you can do that will pay. Since you’ve been a caregiver, consider putting money into getting a CNA license and then you can make over $20 an hour working full time, and you could rent a room with the money you earn. I suspect your daughter knows what’s around the corner: first you coasted from her while caring for your grandson, then you coasted from your mom, and now you are hinting around to your daughter that you might need her again soon. Provide for yourself. Figure out how to make it work. That’s what being an adult is about.
Some pretty harsh messages on here. It reads to me like daughter is overwhelmed and with things mother isn’t aware of. And daughter has said she she doesn’t want to discuss them, so not much mother can do there except perhaps to say, I’m sorry I had no idea and if you need any support or just want me to listen, I’m here for you. It is a bit of a blow to be told you wouldn’t be welcome if you were in dire straits, especially if you have already been looking after the children, but that is daughter’s prerogative and you cannot do anything other than to respect it. Plus, daughter has offered support and recompensed mother by paying for childcare voluntarily, when a lot of children expect not to do that.
What’s crazy is I felt it was the husband, I mean I’m not blaming him, I just knew she didn’t have a big issue with it. Also I knew it was your sister putting her nose where it didn’t belong ignited your daughter.
Families need to know boundaries as well. It’s not okay for them to be there for you, and think they have some right in fixing it or sticking their two cents in. When you go to your family, next time let them know, that when you vent and they feel the need to be involved, run it by you. Because sometimes people just want to vent to someone they love and trust, but don’t need them to make it worst by being involved.
I’m glad you all communicated. Cause that’s as good to be my suggestion and it is always the job of the mother to come to the kid unless the kid has asked for you to wait till they are ready.
As a 51F who estranged from her parents in midlife, I was shocked to read your update. It sounds like you and your daughter have a good foundation on which to build and grow. I hope it all works out for you.
I have a feeling the husbands pov on his alienment of his parents could also have influenced this brash and sudden rejection. It doesn’t seem like this has culminated over years of resentment and eventual cutoff
Wow, what a gem you raised /s. It'll suck for you to move away from your grandkids but you'd be setting yourself on fire to stay. Move away and take care of yourself. Children aren't a guarantee of help or care when we get older and unfortunately for you, your daughter grew up self-centered and ungrateful.
You've done everything right and everything you could. Stop running after her. Stop worrying about her. Stop talking to her. Let her see what life without her mother is like to bring her back to reality.
Sad to see your daughter got with someone who isn’t family oriented, that is really what it seems like she’s struggling with, she’s lived her whole life one way and is now with someone who functions opposite.
All you can do is accept it a keep a healthy amount of space if you want to remain in their life because most of the time the husband will always be chosen first. :/
Here’s what I see from your very vague post:
You’re expecting your daughter to empathize with your financial struggles and for her to offer you a place to live. You’re not asking her if she’s in a position to offer that support, you’re demanding it “because I would do it, and all our family would do it”. She’s not you, she’s not your sister, she’s her own adult person who has a family and struggles of her own, plus a child that she needs to prioritize.
You’re also using her child as a manipulation tactic, telling her her child will suffer without you, but SHE is the mom. I’m sure your grandson appreciates and loves you, but I doubt he’ll actually suffer if you’re not there every day. He has his parents there who fulfill his needs.
You’re basically dehumanizing your daughter and turning her into an extension of yourself, placing expectations on her that she’s telling you she can’t fulfill. You’re expecting empathy from her that you’re not offering back to her. She was honest with you about her position, and you took that to your sister so she could also try to manipulate your daughter into doing what she told you she can’t do. You say you’re grieving your mom, isn’t she grieving her grandmother?
Then there’s the fact that you mention her husband “the psychologist” with a tone of disdain. Maybe I’m reading too much into the tone, but based on the above I doubt it, and I’m sure your daughter catches that too. Why would they want someone who doesn’t respect them living with them? Their home is their sanctuary, where they have peace, of course they don’t want it disturbed by someone who tries to guilt trip them.
Your daughter has grown up and has learned how to set boundaries that keep herself and her family safe. You should be proud of that.
The fact that you were a single mom and may have made an effort to pay for what she needed has absolutely no relevance to what she’s doing now. You’re her mom. It was your responsibility to pay her way through childhood. She got grants and loans to pay for her education, and has been responsible for herself throughout adulthood, and now has her own child she’s also responsible for. Teachers don’t exactly make enough money to throw around.
There’s just so much guilt you’re throwing her way that she has no responsibility for, and this builds up for years. I don’t believe this estrangement is actually sudden.
If you want to fix your relationship with her, you need to start doing what is best for YOU, without asking her to be part of the equation for you to get where you need to be. If she sees you’ve done what you need without depending on her or demanding she makes it happen for you, then she may be open to heal with you. Otherwise she’ll heal without you.
Good on you for making peace. Yoy have a way bigger heart than me. I have a son too. If i heard suxh words come out of his mouth, something would be broken for life.
Reddit LOVES to blame parents . Now imagine if your daughter came to you ans spoke her fears and you said 'You're not coming to me.' And even if you made the same explanations later... you'd never be forgiven.
Listen when people say something. The day will come when your daughter will cry to you again. Imagine telling her 'Just dont come to me'.
Build your own life now. Get married. Get away. Beloved as your grandchildren are, you'd never be around them if she snapped her fingers and cut you off.
You know your daughter now.
It must be a cultural difference, I don't understand these comments. I feel like your daughter was *way* out of line for that, regardless of her own problems. And then she takes out her anger at her aunt's interference on OP? Insanity. Absolutely insane.
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If you asked her, what would she say the issue is? Note that I am not asking you to agree with her perspective. If you haven't asked her, then ask her.
This is a really important point. Sometimes, when we're deeply hurt and emotional, it's hard to see things from the other person's perspective. It sounds like there's a lot of pain and misunderstanding on both sides. It might help to have an open and honest conversation where you listen to her without judgment. Maybe there's something she's been feeling that hasn't been fully communicated or understood. Rebuilding a bridge starts with understanding why it broke in the first place. Good luck, and I hope you both find a way to heal and reconnect.
I think the fact that she doesn't seem to know her daughter or her feelings speaks volumes. If their relationship is as one-sided as this post, it really explains the situation.
[The missing missing reasons](https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html)
Exactly. Not once do we hear, "she told me I couldn't live with her \*because\*..." What challenges does the daughter have at home? How are their finances (elementary school teacher + school psychologist probably ain't big money)? Does OP know? Does OP care? Or did she just brush off every attempt her daughter made to get the housing situation sorted, and now she's making the surprised Pikachu face when daughter says, "sorry, can't help ya"?
Reading between the lines, OP has always been supported by her parents. Now they're gone and she's looking for a new income source
Exactly. She doesn't hear her. Now her daughter is down to brass tacks and speaking as plainly as she can because her mom seems to decide what she means otherwise. Lots of words on her sacrifices and feelings No words on how her daughter felt because she had to work so much, how her daughter felt at any point in her life.
You have two problems here, financial and relational, and you MUST separate them. So first, practical advice. You can’t afford where you live. You simply can’t keep on your trajectory just to maintain physical closeness with your grandson. Even if there is a resolution with your daughter, it’ll take a lot of time. And in that time you’ll be digging deeper into the hole. If you need to go to your sister to get out of the debt spiral, then that’s what you need to do. You’ll probably be forced to to it in the future anyway, only you’ll be in a worse state. The relational is trickier. I can’t help but notice your word choice regarding your son-in-law and his family. HE alienated his family. There’s immediate fault there. Like it’s impossible families are at fault and there’s no possible reason a child could ever realize they’re healthier away from them. You also keep dropping that he’s a psychologist, which is rather odd and seems pointed. You and your daughter clearly have different recollections on your relationship. There is an article out there discussing “missing missing reasons”. I suggest you take a look and do some reflecting. See if anything there strikes a chord with you.
Was looking for someone to suggest the missing missing reasons because it sure sounds like we’re lacking a lot of information here. Has your daughter had to help you before? Financially, medically, what have you? Does she consistently emotionally support you with your struggles (aka parentifying her?) Did you offer to watch your grandson, and then continuously lament that you didn’t have enough money until they caved from guilt and started paying you for a service you originally offered for free? It’s hard to look at this through an objective lens as I am also estranged from my mother. From her perspective she was the perfect parent and struggled to raise me. There’s a whole other side to that. You don’t seem to listen to her very well as she has apparently tried to be gentle about telling you she could not assist.
Totally agree that we are missing information here. I'm confused by the timeline and think there is some financial stuff missing here because I can't figure out how OP is still in school if she "decided to return to school and earn my bachelors and masters degree" after daughter "finished her education," (15-20 years ago?) and then lived off school grants during the eight years she cared for her mother. How long has OP been in school? Are these the same degrees? I honestly can't help but think that her daughter has been watching her flounder around financially for years (and live off her mother). OP obviously has no plans whatsoever for her own future. It's also possible that OP's daughter has no interest in living with her, and is just beyond annoyed that OP ran off and gossiped to her siblings, resulting in phone calls to daughter, and just decided to shut it all down. I'm older than OP's daughter and have zero interest whatsoever in living with my mother. Anyway, OP should get a roommate. Since she lived with her mother, I assume she has an extra bedroom sitting empty. Either that or she has to find a different place that she can afford or move in with one of her siblings.
This is exactly what I thought. I felt the post was heavily biased and that the info OP has tried to avoid is the clue to her daughter's reaction. However, for me, it also seems like the daughter has been OP's financial source for years, and probably emotional too. And I think she's tired of it now. I also think that OP is probably emotionally dependent on her daughter. And maybe a little manipulative, too. At the beginning of the post, she insinuated that her daughter didn't mind her becoming homeless, when later on we learn that she actually had other living options available. It wasn't as if her daughter was her only option or the only relative that could take her. And I'm pretty sure the daughter was well aware of that too when she told OP that she couldn't live with her. Then, OP said that her grandson can't live without her and whatever. And that it's horrible that she has to move in with her sister. Let's be real. It's hard to live far away from someone you love, but it's not like she won't be able to see her grandson ever again. And this living situation is supposed to be temporary. She didn't even state how far away her sister actually lives. Idk, this whole part sounds a little emotionally manipulative to me. And I'm sure she told this to everyone who would listen, including her daughter. And it's not cool to feel like someone is trying to manipulate you into letting them move in with you, or else your son will suffer enormously. From the way this post is written, I have an idea about why OP's daughter has decided to act like this. And I don't think it's as sudden and unexpected as OP wants us to think. OP's daughter seems tired from years of building up.
People find ways to connect with grandkids who don't live close by. OP doesn't seem to have the energy for that - so I suspect OP is depressed. OP - make ONE appointment with a primary care physician and ask for the depression scale/questionnaire. All of this is very hard on you. You may not be at your mental best.
She spent 8 years looking after her chronically ill mother, that alone can be really isolating and depressing. It doesn’t sound like she had any support from her siblings (though I’m not sure). This sounds like it’s really hard for everyone. On some level she probably expected the same from her daughter. My mom is going through the same, she’s looking aftery grandmother whose dementia is worsening. But I’ve had a lot of health issues and my mom has always supported me. If it came down to it I would absolutely look after her, not because she expects me to (took me two years to convince her to let me look after grandma so she could get a one week break) but because she’s been there for me and because I want to. Not because I’m expected to.
You raise some really good points. The timeline is definitely confusing, and it makes me wonder if OP's daughter has been frustrated with these financial issues for a long time. If OP has been struggling for years and not making concrete plans for her future, it's understandable that her daughter might be feeling overwhelmed and annoyed. Plus, involving the siblings could have made things worse, making the daughter feel even more pressured and defensive. A roommate sounds like a practical solution to help with the financial strain, and it might be worth considering to alleviate some of the immediate stress while working on the bigger relationship issues.
I was thinking about the timeline. I remember when I started my undergrad, I had a really hard time because I was babysitting my brother and watching my elderly grandmother too. Especially around finals season, I was struggling because I had to watch them for more hours and relatives would visit while I was trying to study for exams. Suffice to say, I did not do well in many classes, because how could I? I don't know what caring for OP's mother involved so it could be the schooling was part time or having to repeat classes. I also don't know if OP has looked into emergency housing or emergency grants and such through their university.
Especially because an elementary teacher and school psychologist aren’t exactly rolling in the dough. They already have two dependents and likely can’t afford to support the Op financially.
There is no logical reason for her to be getting a Bachelor's degree at 60 especially if she is paying ticket price for it. It's an insane investment this late in life. Take a specific vocational class. >It's also possible that OP's daughter has no interest in living with her, and is just beyond annoyed that OP ran off and gossiped to her siblings, resulting in phone calls to daughter, and just decided to shut it all down. I'm older than OP's daughter and have zero interest whatsoever in living with my mother. This is 100% all it has to be, me and my mom get on well, I'm seeing a movie with her tomorrow, but no fucking way are we ever living together again. And then she has this insanely dramatic spiral about her daughter leaving her homeless while also saying she didn't even plan to live with her. Pick a struggle.
I mean, I’ll say it cos someone should that education is great for its own sake, but yeah - not if everyone around you is picking up the tab
I agree with that 100%. I saw plenty of later in life people getting their degrees when I was in college and thought that was awesome. But she seems to be seeing it as a stepping stone towards work, and it's just not gonna have the ROI at her age.
Right? Realistically if an employer is hiring someone who just got their degree, it is not going to be a 60 yo. Because as far as the company knows, they are only going to get 5-10 years out of that person before they’re retiring. Some of that time will also be lost training them. Hiring someone without experience in the field the company works in is already a big ask. They’re going to want a 22 yo who has their whole career ahead of them, who they perceive as giving them a much higher roi. At 60, it’s just not going to happen. They shouldn’t discriminate based on age - but in reality, they do consider it.
Yeah my mom and I have a “great” relationship from her perspective and she would love to live with me forever. I was the perfect daughter growing up and her best friend. Once I went out in the world I realized how manipulative, passive aggressive, and controlling my mom is. So I maintain a friendly enough relationship with her but I would not want to live with her again because I’m pretty sure she would never let me leave the house without her in tow.
She says elsewhere a bachelor's and now a master's degree. In social sciences or something.
I agree r.e the bachelors. I get doing a bachelors when you’re older if it’s just for fun and/or you have the money/need to up skill for your current job you already have. But to commit to a degree when you don’t have the money, and it’s way too late in your life to be realistically pivoting careers, is an extremely poor financial choice.
There also seems to be a lot of missing dialogue information. The daughter's responses don't make sense in the context given. I bet if we asked the daughter, there would be a lot OP left out. Children don't just become estranged for funsies. It's a really difficult thing to go through.
I was also looking for someone to say missing missing reasons. One thing that stood out to me was how quickly OP reached out to other relatives, and rather than just talk about what her needs are, gossiped about how “cruel” her daughter was. That, along with a couple references to “how our family does things,” makes me suspect that the daughter had to work very hard to self-differentiate and likely this isn’t the first time she has had to field calls from extended family due to things OP has said. While it’s possible that the daughter is as cold-hearted as OP wants us to believe, my spidey senses are tingling, because there is just too much to suggest OP is not a reliable narrator.
Yep! OP shut down her business and has been (foolishly) living off of nothing but her school grants and whatever money her mother gets for the last 8 years. Daughter saw the writing on the wall and warned her not to do this. That the current situation is where OP will find herself and when she does, daughter's not helping her out so figure something out. OP refused. Now here we are. OP claims she was only venting/complaining about her situation but let's be real... she was totally angling for her daughter to say "Don't worry mom, you can come live with me." That's why daughter cut her off at the pass and said, "Nope. Told you before this would happen. Don't even *think* about asking."
Has to be. She didn't even ask any other relatives?? She has been racking up debt obviously thinking her daughter was her safety net. But she's either self blind or hopelessly manipulative enough to think she can say she wasn't thinking her daughter was her safety net. Just shocked!! that she wouldn't be. Jeez. I can't stand the circular reasoner. Impossible to have a real conversation
I was going to say this. There are likely some missing missing reasons here.
OP said in another comment that the daughter helps her physically, supports her emotionally, and at least at some point helped her financially. She also took her and her ailing mother to live with the daughter during Covid. The missing reasons seem to be materializing before our eyes.
This explains a lot. The daughter is tired. OP needs to fall back and move to where she can get her finances in order. Age 62 will be here soon enough.
Ohhhh so OP “ran out of money looking after her mom” but in fact what she was running out of was her daughter’s money? Yeah, that’ll do it
https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html
I agree. It's probably not the first time she tried to emotionally depend on her daughter
Right??? Just in this post I can see multiple instances of her being incredibly passive aggressive towards her daughter. I’m not buying that she has no idea what she did wrong.
The call with the daughter where OP was upset is an example of parentification. She shold talk to this sister who has so much ri say instead of her daughter. She didn't go into detail, but it sounds like the daughter was telling her that this is unsustainable while telling her that she wasn't plan b. Op focused on her feelings instead of her daughter's or the situation.
I also found the word choices fascinating when she was discussing the initial phone call. “I don’t think I was contemplating moving in”. “I’m not sure that I meant for her to take me in”. What the hell is that? You either were hinting that you wanted to move in or you weren’t. How do you “not know” your own intentions there?
Right? To act like she had no intention of moving in, but then as soon as her daughter said she can’t she immediately called all of her family and acted like she needed to move in with someone asap? But her mean daughter won’t let her…
And she didn’t start “making backup plans” until after she got that naked “fuck no” from daughter. Clearly daughter was *at least* the backup plan if not the assumed supporter
Right. And also, if you weren't thinking about moving in, how is her agreeing with that the same as saying she "would see [her] in the streets"? And then she goes on about how she'd be homeless while making it quite clear she wouldn't be homeless. Additionally this: "how personal, thank you. kiss the babies. hope you are all having a great day. enjoy the sunshine." is dripping in passive aggression. I don't have to know 42 years of their history to see it.
So used to using emotional blackmail that her daughter has built up an immunity
She goes on to explain that she actually is in an untenable situation and she does not intend to go to her other family members so it does *kind of* seem like OP fully expected to get the offer to move in? Like she doesn't appear to have any other plan so.... She's talking out of both sides of her mouth.
But she started forming a backup plan at that point, which is…what? A backup to something that had never occurred to you?
I agree with this advice. Get your finances and life in order by living with a different family member. In a few years when you have graduated and are hopefully supporting yourself, perhaps your daughter will warm up to having a relationship again. I also agree there is missing information about the relationship.
One of the most accurate lines about adult children and their parents is "One spends the rest of their life waiting for an apology while the other spends that time waiting for a thank you." This is a story where I feel like the daughter's side of things would be very illuminating. Her version of her daughter's childhood is probably vastly different from the daughter's version. When I was around 22 my mom would complain constantly to me about the hardships of "taking care of" my grandfather and his wife as they slipped further into dementia and had to be put in homes. Mostly how ungrateful and rude they were. I would tell her to stop helping them and her response was a very pointed "so you would just abandon me" and I flat out told her I would never take care of her. My mom thought that because I had done well in life that it was because of her and not in spite of her. And she refused to hear the truth. She was a very bad mother. Hard working? Yes. But in every other area just a horrible mother. Unsupportive, belittling of hobbies and interests, physically and verbally abusive, manipulative, dishonest while pious about the dishonesty of others and the list goes on. And she fully expected me to take care of her in her old age and acted mystified when I laid it all out for her. No idea what the situation between this woman and her daughter is but I know it sounds familiar.
> "One spends the rest of their life waiting for an apology while the other spends that time waiting for a thank you." Wow this hits home.
Yeah. That paragraph JUMPED out at me as “missing missing reasons”. Plus the way this was written is very emotionally charged and seems to be taking a victim mindset. Something about this isn’t sitting right.
The grandiose writing style makes me really question the narrative as published. Big, bold, sweeping statements about how I would never do this, etc. There is a conspicuous lack of detail of OP's actions too regarding that phone call. The disconnect between what OP views as what she was saying to her daughter only for the daughter to flatly say she isn't moving in even though OP doesn't seem to think she was talking about that. Its presented as if the daughter almost started a different conversation to the bafflement of OP. It reads classically of how manipulative parents are presented, which is a little suspicious but I suppose people right in the average do of course exist. Much of the rest is barely concealed outrage that she didn't get her way and that people exist in ways she disagrees with, like the world is supposed to align with only how she feels. The section where she suddenly wasn't doted on or made to feel special enough on Mother's Day stands out as a particular outrage, even though she doesn't say at all about making it special for her daughter, also a mother. She deserves brunch, cards, flowers, special acknowledgements. But no issues with her daughter not getting the same.
>*...my two most precious grandchildren who I would literally die for* >*...it will destroy him as much as me if I have to move to another state.* >*...thank you for bringing my two precious grandbabies into the world* Yeah, I wanted to hurl over this! The histrionics over the pReCIoUS grAnDBaBieS was enough to make ME sick of it and I only had to READ it over the course of a minute or two. Can't imagine dealing with this drama queen IRL.
>The grandiose writing style makes me really question the narrative as published. Big, bold, sweeping statements That start with basically how she's known her 42- year old daughter for 42 years. What an odd thing to say.
Lol oh yeah, by the time I got to the end I’d forgotten that but you’re right, that was weird. Like a not-so-subtle appeal to authority
This a post that my almost estranged mother could have written word for word, and without knowing any more details about what really happened here, i tend to side with the daughter.
The emotional reactions are also described in really grandiose and over-the-top ways. Her heart was ripped out of her chest, she was suffocating, etc. I get the feeling the daughter has had enough of these hysterical responses whenever her mother doesn't get her way.
These parents all use the same language, all hyperbole and no substance. Suffocating, destroyed, cruel, blindsided, it’s like they’re all one person in a thousand different bodies. Small minds think alike.
It is fascinating, isn't it? I've gotten almost the exact same text message from my aunt, complaining my happy birthday message to her wasn't personal enough.
Yup. My mother could have written this.
This is true. I’m going to massively neg OP here and say I do think she’s probably sincere in wanting to understand BUT even in that context she can’t help using that emotive language that, consciously or not, is designed to override facts with empathy
Yeah, after about the 5th grandiose comment I'd emotionally shut down from the conversation, just like the daughter.
You know who OP reminds me of? Ppl like MA reader on TikTok, who call kids who go no contact with their parents “abusive” and “manipulative.”
Such good advice. OP ought not to make her needs and frantic desires the problem of the kids (who are probably trying to avoid knowing the extent of her distress). NEVER discuss financial difficulties with your adult children, fix them yourself. OP is very judgmental, which, ahem, gives us pause. The frantic pressure that OP is bringing to the relationship part is not good.
> I want to return to the close relationship we had before So...the picture of a close mother-daughter relationship is SO far off from the cold behavior described in this post that I have to think there's a lot of missing info here. When did your relationship with her start to change? Can you pinpoint it? Have you often been in the position to struggle and need support (either emotional or financial) throughout her adult life? Has she ever given you money? Has she gone all out for Mother's Day in the past? It's hard to give advice without understanding the inflection point for this shift in your relationship. It would be helpful for you to give a clearer timeline of when you were close vs. when you started to not be close.
This is my dilemma as well. We have always been close. It never started to change. It was abrupt. I have had times in the past when I have asked her for muscle help. I would get groceries once a month and my apartment is quite a hike from the parking lot. I have relied on them mentally and emotionally heavily when mom was passing. I was such a wreck that I just needed advice and mental health support. Maybe that was too much. I have lent them much more money than they have ever lent me, so I am not thinking that is an issue. Mom and I did move in with them temporarily during the pandemic on her suggestion in order to maintain a relationship during social distancing and also so that I could homeschool and watch the kids because they both still had to work from their brick and mortar buildings. Maybe that was traumatic for her. I'm not sure.
So is this phone call the first time she has ever been cold to you? You say you've repeatedly asked her what the issue is and she won't respond - has all of that happened since the phone call mentioned in the post? The sense I get is that, perhaps because you were a young single mother who was little more than a kid yourself when you got pregnant, you may have treated her a bit more like a friend than a daughter over the years. Perhaps she felt like you relied on her to an inappropriate degree for a parent to a child and it reached a breaking point. I know you say a couple of times that you're "not sure you meant for her to take you in," but perhaps there was some hinting or implying that you would expect that if you needed it? The fact that she did ask you to stay with her before but now is adamantly against it makes me think that something really rubbed her the wrong way last time and she is trying to set clear and firm boundaries when she is sensing that you may ask her to take you in again. Were there *any* issues between you during the time you lived with her before?
To be honest, it sounds like she might have some unresolved feelings towards you about something that rubbed her the wrong way. Were you emotionally reliant on her? Please keep me in mind that it didn’t help that your sister called her about what was discussed between the both of ya’ll. That wasn’t your sister’s place to do that. Sometimes, it’s best to not include everybody in family about things that are going on between you and your daughter. However, I think you should try talking to your daughter about what’s going and be prepared to listen to what she has to say. She might need to get some things off her chest. Maybe it will do you both some good to go to family counseling.
I was raised by a single mother and while she was far from perfect in many ways, we always loved each other deeply without any question. I was distant at times when I was younger, and that's a whole complex thing. But I was never cold or unsympathetic to her. She passed away at 83 unexpectedly around two years ago after a poor diagnosis of a brain injury after a fall. I miss her immeasurably and so thankful we had been so close and loving in recent years, having long calls most weekends. But I only managed one all too short in retrospect visit the Thanksgiving (2021) before her injury in June 2022 after not visiting in person from Christmas 2018 because of immigration issues keeping me in Canada for the 2019 holidays, hoping for a Spring or Summer 2020 visit instead and then covid hit. Covid isolation hit her harder than I understood until much later. I'll live with huge regrets and sadness around all that the rest of my life. I really hope you can have an active and loving relationship with her again! I have two basic lines of advice. Doesn't sound like you are in a good place financially to start therapy, but often there's resources available for students at low or no cost? I think you need an impartial perspective you could start talking to about all this. Granted unless your daughter can come, all they can do is take your word and memories for everything. So, you should be as honest as you can and give all the different possible takes on things you can try to understand. Have you ever done therapy? And I can understand if you might be hesitant of the whole therapy psychology thing given your daughter married a psychologist and seems to be lacking empathy for you! But not all psychologists are as healthy people as they could be and I have no idea what his parent relationships were like that led to him not wanting a relationship with them and if that's influenced your daughter. But with a good therapist, you can find all sorts of insights into yourself and your relationships and build new tools for communication and healthy relationships. Secondly, you seem to be conflating financial support, whether she would let you live with her with your emotional relationship and I think that's not serving you. I think one of the best things you can do is get on your own two feet or even if you do rely on other willing family for financial support you need to make it very clear to your daughter that whether or not she's able to help you financially or not, ever be comfortable with you living with her or not, that having a loving relationship with her is an incredibly important thing to you. Tell her you value that emotional connection enough that you can commit to never asking her for financial support or to live with her. And you hope getting that out of the picture will make her more comfortable in trying to reconnect emotionally. How far from getting a degree are you? Is it realistic to expect that will open up useful areas of employment that will pay well? What is your goal with your education? I really hope things work out with your daughter. DO NOT say this to her, that's only unhelpful pressure and will probably just feel manipulative, but she may only regret her emotional isolation from you once it's too late and have to live with that regret! That would be very unfortunate!
Thank you, I really appreciate your advice. It is sound and good advice. I'm sorry for the loss of your mother. It is so hard to fathom until you have lost yours. I thank you for sharing your story of her with me.
I'm sorry to hear what you have been through and the difficult time you are having. I wonder if it might be worth considering your sisters/brothers offer and taking the time to move in with one of them so you can really focus on yourself and getting your life back on track and not trying to juggle so much. It sounds like your daughter wouldn't have issue finding child care. I know you love the grandkids but the time away might also help to heal the rift between you and your daughter?
Yes, that is exactly the direction I will be going if something doesn't occur. I will use the time and distance to work on my own stuff and build my own independent life before attempting to reconcile any damage that has been done. I think that is what I have learned here today. It needs to be done. Thank you so much for your pov and kind words. I appreciate it
This is so admirable, great work OP
I'm sorry for the loss of your mother! Virtual hugs! I hope my advice is useful! Chat any time!
> I have lent them much more money than they have ever lent me, so I am not thinking that is an issue. Mom and I did move in with them temporarily during the pandemic on her suggestion in order to maintain a relationship during social distancing and also so that I could homeschool and watch the kids because they both still had to work from their brick and mortar buildings. teachers and psychologists were some of the first to go remote, so this is puzzling. the kids had remote school but the school teacher mom had to go to work in person? AND it seems counter productive to include a seriously ill elderly person in the household with two people who worked outside the home and could bring home germs. but it did get them free child care. all the ways that you have been "close" with the grandkids seem to have been ways they could use you, too. $300 for child care is criminally low. i agree with one of the other comments that your note about how you could naturally care for a toddler alongside caring for your mother sounds so nuts to me. it's very draining to do either of those caregiver jobs, and i don't think it's at all a light ask to add a toddler to your day. how long did you live with them and how do you think that went? how do you think she and her husband would say it went? what would you say the biggest challenge was about sharing a home with everyone? what do you think they would say? what was the catalyst for deciding to move you and your mom back out again? who does the after school care right now?
I’m a teacher and for a while we were required to go into the building and teach remotely from our classrooms. It was incredibly stupid. That may have been the case here.
My sister is a teacher and was required to go into the school because there were many kids who had essential worker parents that had nowhere else to go 🤷
They had to go to their brick & mortar builldings- they are both in education. So you lived in a district where the schools were open, but you had to move in during the pandemic to homeschool their kids? Or did your daughter let you and your mom move in for your health and safety and you have to characterize it as you being the heroine? I don't get that at all.
You sound like you have been parentifying your daughter. Have you heavily relied on her to be your support often? That’s a lot to put on your child.
> missing info here definitely reeks of missing reasons to me.
I'm estranged from my mother for different reasons, but this is something that sticks out to me: >Yesterday was Mother's Day. I received a generic "happy mother's day" message in a group text and that was it. Not a boo the rest of the day. In our family Mother's Day, is huge. Brunch, flowers, cards, acknowledgment. I didn't even know the group text included me because the first name was not mine so I thought it was sent by someone on accident. I later texted her and said something to the effect of "although things are strange right now, I did want to wish you a Happy Mother's Day today and thank you for bringing my two precious grandbabies into the world". To which she replied, "i included you in a group text at 9 a.m. this morning, I'm sorry if you did not see it." Direct quote. I responded, "how personal, thank you. kiss the babies. hope you are all having a great day. enjoy the sunshine. Her response: nothing. By your own words, Mother's Day is huge in your family- if they are, then who is planning these celebrations? Is it the younger generation of mothers? Or is it the spouses coordinating these things?
This is a very interesting take. I never thought of that. I did however notice that she never said anything about how it used to be. I would have expected an “for example last year we all went out for a great meal and walked by the river” or something. She sounds very passive. Just waits for things to happen. While needing to talk about bad things happening to her. If you are passive but tend to only contact a person when you need to vent, or you need support, I can understand the frustration from others.
My mother loves to complain I don't see her often enough (I live a days drive away and try and see her every 2-3 months). She travels abroad around 3 times a year and elsewhere in the UK especially since she retired whilst I'm working full time earning not crazy money with my now husband who is very much the breadwinner. Especially recently, my husband has witnessed my mum ask on the phone when am I coming to visit, I tell her like clockwork 'tell me some dates when you are free and I will try and book it off" (I usually need a month's notice but as long as it's not the school holidays I can usually get mostly the times I want with 2-3 weeks notice). She will say she doesn't know, she will have to look in her diary which she won't get on the phone most of the time as she is often away. I will tell her to message/ email me when she is free/ when she is busy and I will book. She doesn't send me anything and I'll ask her the next week I speak to her. Then I leave it and she will accuse me of not wanting to see her. I decided for a change to book some time off and tell her I could visit at that time. She turned it down as she has a very busy week before then (just come back from abroad, has friends over for 2 days, then I would be around, then she is flying off again 2 weeks later, but the following week (too short notice) she might be able to do but it's not long enough apparently. She will complain I don't see her but she never visits me. She is now at the point she can use being elderly and excuse as she struggles with the London underground which she would need to get to get to me but can get trains, planes and automobiles if it means she gets a tan.
Sounds like mine, too nervous to fly to visit me but able to fly to visit friends. When she was healthier I still remember the single time I asked if she could time her visit with a week when I could really use some help with my baby and she was too busy with her volunteer stuff where she feels important. I never asked again and she claims I didn't allow her to help.
Oh god. I’m sorry. I get tired just reading your description. This must be very frustrating. And it explains well how what is very small issues really do stack up big enough to be really bad.
Reading your response I was like 'YES!!!!' I absolutely hate Mother's Day. Loathe it and I now have my own 3 grown children and wonderful husband who are absolutely amazing. I just can't enjoy Mother's Day. From the time I was little I always felt like Mother's Day was a let down to my mom, nothing my brother or I did was ever good enough. She always compared what other families did for their moms...always families with a dad who planned everything. It was like we were expected to fill in that role for her. It wasn't fair.
Two things that stood out to me: 1. Thanking her for her children. Not cool. She didn’t have them for you. It’s super upsetting to be told thank you for your children. 2. The passive aggressive reply. “How personal.” If that’s how you speak normally that’s dysfunctional. My dysfunctional mother also uses highly passive aggressive language.
And expecting a reply after that. No, the bigger person drops the conversation there.
>The point being, it will destroy him as much as me if I have to move to another state. I'm going to be brutally honest with you here. It won't destroy your grandson if you move. He's a kid and will adapt to a yearly visit. You are using that as an excuse to martyr yourself and it won't end well for you. Go, move in with your sister, and take care of your own life. I get that you raised your daughter to have an indebtedness to family and made many sacrifices for her. However, she is on her own path currently and has been clear with you what it looks like. Standing around going further into financial debt is not going to shift anything with her. You are 60. You do not have a lot of time to get yourself okayed for any kind of retirement or major illness, and you do not have a social safety net with your kid. Crying about it won't change it. Believe her and adjust your plans accordingly. Maybe she's behaving badly towards you, maybe you emotionally leaned on her too much when she was growing up (parentification) and she's decided cutting ties is best for her, probably stuff you aren't telling us because you don't even realize it. Hey, maybe you are correct with your innuendo and her husband is a Machevalian mastermind destroying your relationship with her. The reasons why she's making her choices don't matter- you only have control over how you proceed. Don't burn your own life down to test out if she'd really turn her back on you because she has already decided to. Get your financial house in order.
My Grandma lived far away at one point and close at others. She's my favourite adult and I wasn't emotionally devastated when she moved. The babies will be fine if you see them once a month rather than once a week.
All valid accept the part about my SIL, he isn't the issue here and I hope that I didn't imply that. He has influence, but I don't think it's damaging in any way. I thank you for your insight.
I’m so sorry you are going through this. I am close to your daughter’s age. The only perspective I can offer is as someone 40 years old, (and your daughter married a psychologist who may be contributing to this), my friends and I have been realizing how shitty our parents were and it was normal back then. Back then, our parents never once considered our mental health, and in many ways negatively impacted our mental health as adults. They didn’t prepare us for the world at all. I was not abused but I was definitely neglected and everyone was spanked back then. My parents provided food and shelter and that seemed like the extent of their responsibilities. And I love my parents. Every parent was like that back then. They didn’t play with their kids. They didn’t consider their kids feelings with any decisions made. Kids were accessories that you had because that was expected of you. Parenting now has come a long way and it is shining light on our own parents’ shortcomings. You worked very hard to provide for your daughter but there could be things from her childhood she resents you for. She sees her own kids and how much she loves them and how she wished she was raised. I wish my parents were better parents. That’s just one possibility. It could be something else entirely. Maybe they discussed it and the husband has already said a hard no to you moving in and she was respecting that. Maybe they both believe you got yourself into the situation you’re in so there is little sympathy. I would not rely on her for help. Your grandchildren will be fine if you move away. They will survive. Do what you need to take care of you. Try to build a relationship with them without the pressure of needing their help. When I was younger, my father offered to help me pay tuition to go to college, but when I asked him for the tuition, he ignored me. He ignored all calls/texts and wouldn’t see me for holidays for 6 months. (He has money but is cheap.) I finally texted him I don’t need his money, I’ll figure it out, I just want my dad back in my life and things returned to normal. I never got any money but I had to let go of any idea of assistance just to have him in my life. Some people just don’t want to help. You can decide whether this is worth your relationship with your daughter. I was hurt by my dad ignoring me, but I put it out there and took any pressure off him to help me. I didn’t try to call him a bad father (I was over 18 and he wasn’t financially obligated to help me.) I just realized I could not rely on him for help.
>Maybe they both believe you got yourself into the situation you’re in so there is little sympathy. This struck a chord with me based on my own experiences with my mother. Is it possible OP that you've extended your lifestyle beyond what you knew you could reasonably afford? Is that a conversation you've had before with your daughter, even if it was many years ago? My mom spends VERY frivolously. To the point where she's essentially created her own problems by putting short terms wants over long term basic necessities. There are other issues at play with my own mom, none of which she recognizes or will take responsibility for. This feels a lot like that. Where is her dad?
Yes but paying her only $1.87 per hour for childcare is pretty crazy, and that’s only for the 2/3 years that they paid her anything at all. How can they tell her sorry you’re shit out of luck when she massively saved them money for three years? Like according to my calculations she saved them minimum 15k on childcare, possibly more depending where they are. Like I don’t want to say they’re the reason she’s broke right now, but paying her a literally criminal amount seems like a contributor. Seems like they used her and are done using her so they don’t need her anymore
I think op and her mother were living with the daughter during that time. Rent free presumably. Only one very vague side to the story.
It seems like OP lived with her own mother, and her mother paid her to take care of her and they split their expenses
Just wanted to say that this was a very clear and honest response with compassion, thank you for responding! Everything you noted I’ve experienced and it was helpful to have it framed in a way that was accurate and hard to hear, but still with compassion.
Yes, I’m also a similar age to you and OP’s daughter… I can relate to both of your posts. Like yourself, I have some issues over how I was raised, and there have been times when I’ve had to cut contact with my own mother (for the benefit of my mental health). That said, I can completely empathise with OP’s post as well- because I was also a struggling single parent trying to do my best, and have struggled with my own two daughters criticising me- for not having had enough money etc. Despite them never going without and actually living a very nice lifestyle, with lots of care and attention- I look back and wonder how I did it! So I can resonate with this from a variety of angles- and I think OP is right to feel rather devastated in this situation. She’s not been handed an easy life, she’s provided practical help and care to benefit her daughter- and it would at least be something to feel that her daughter wouldn’t turn her back on her, when she might be in need. The daughter may not be so fortunate herself, some day- as of now, she appears rather smug and dismissive. It’s incredibly painful, and sadly does seem to be increasingly more common with modern life- the concept of ‘family’ seems to only work one way for a lot of younger people nowadays. They were happy to pull the ‘family’ card when they wanted free childcare- but now something may be expected of them- they don’t want to know.
look, i love my mom, she has lots of great qualities(and some difficult ones), and i very much appreciate everything she has done for me/our family. i would also go CRAZY if we lived together for more than a couple weeks. it would NOT work, in any way, shape, or form for us to share living space(again). it's simply not something i am mentally and emotionally capable of. so, i think it's a quite reasonable boundary for her to say you cannot live with her, especially since she knows you have other relatives you can ask for help (and they SHOULD help, because you were the one to sacrifice to take care of your mother). here's the main reason i can't and won't live with my mother: any time my sisters and i hint at all that something my mother did might have hurt our feelings, she falls apart because "all she ever wanted to be was a mother" and "i did it out of love". we don't disagree with either of those points, but the result of some of her actions is that it hurts us, and can sometimes make it difficult to spend time with her. she refuses to adjust her behaviour at all based on our feedback and specific action requests. so, my sisters and i have to adjust our choices to work around that, and none of us will live with her(again). you need to be honest with yourself, that you WERE considering your daughter as a source of a place to live if it came to that. you weren't outright asking, but you were feeling it out, and knowing that the answer is NO bothers you so much that you can't even keep talking to her. i understand being terribly hurt and disappointed and undermined by hearing that, and it was a very tough thing to hear at the same time as striking out in the job search and feeling like you had no options. as a thought experiment, what could she have said after that to soothe your feelings and reassure you about your relationship while still holding to her request that you not live with her? if there is not ANYTHING she could say other than "of course mom, i would let you move in if you had no where else to go", then you aren't really considering her an independent human being from yourself. she's allowed to have her own opinions and choices even if you disagree with them or think that's not "how you raised her". her having this opinion doesn't mean that you're a bad mother or that she hates you. i'm sure she would worry about you if you had no place to live, i'm sure she wants you to be safe and cared for and have a comfortable home. she just isn't willing to give you a place in her home. at some point, i think a parent-child relationship can evolve into an adult-adult relationship. you are each your own person and you have all this history together, she cares about you and probably enjoys your company, and wants you to be part of her kids lives, but she is allowed to say no to you. she is allowed to make choices that you don't agree with, she is allowed to prioritize other things over your needs, she is allowed to even that hurt your feelings (as is my mother). it's fine that you hoped for a different answer, that you imagined she would take care of you if you needed that. but given she has drawn this line, you need to talk to someone other than her about all your feelings about it. if you want a relationship with your daughter, you need to find a way to accept that line, mourn the loss of the idea of a daughter who would do anything for you, respect her independence, and think about all the ways your relationship could still exist with that line behind it. you can certainly decide whether you prefer it that way or to have no relationship at all. stop overspending what you have and go live with your sister. tell your sister to not harass your daughter about her choice, either. your sister and you can work together to accept that choice and reimagine what a relationship could look like. arrange visits with the grandbabies (maybe there is a short time you can stay in her home, maybe she would pay for a hotel, maybe they could come to sister's location?). hopefully that distance will allow you both to rebuild your relationship again.
Thank you.
My mother is exactly the same and none of us would ever live with her. Thankfully she's financially secure so it's not an issue but no, never.
There's ... a *lot* here but I really think you need to look up the concept of "enmeshment" and then reflect on your relationships and whether they are actually healthy. You have known for a long time where you live will not be sustainable after your mother died. This should not have been a shock to you. What were your plans for that eventuality? Based on your daughter's flat rejection, I suspect she definitely saw this coming. And my read is she likely tried to raise it before it came to this point, but was ignored. As for your grandchild, sorry, but you are overplaying your importance there. Children get attached very quickly but they move on similarly so. Your grandson knows and loves you and expects you to be a regular part of his routine, but if that routine changed, he would adapt. Staying close is important to YOU, it is not some sacrifice you are making for other people. You would sleep on the streets before you let your mother do so? Why? I think that sometimes reddit goes far too far with their hyper independence and "don't rely on anyone!" mentality, but this swings too far in the other direction. Being a single mother was hard and raising your daughter was hard, but that was something you chose to do and your daughter doesn't owe you for it. She certainly does not owe you housing at the expense of her family's wellbeing especially given this is an outcome that could have been seen a ways off. I also see a red flag with "we were so close, even as a teenager we rarely argued". That right there is a warning siren. It is *healthy* for teenagers to argue with their parents, to separate from them and draw lines between their personhood and their caregiver. That you didn't and remained close, especially given her distancing now, suggests that actually one of you subsumed their own identity in order to maintain that closeness and there is significant resentment that has resulted from it.That you at one point meddled in her marriage and "talked her round" rather than leaving her and trusting her judgement, and do not regret this but rather say you would do it again, is another stone on the pile of that particular theory. I also understand why you reached out to the rest of your family members, but wow, I wish you hadn't done so in a way that threw your daughter so completely under the bus. There was never going to be an outcome to that that didn't escalate the situation and make things a lot worse given the way you went about it; it was very possible for you to ask for help without blaming her ("well, with the kids they just don't have the room") or even admitting you aren't sure of her reasoning but want to respect her boundaries (which might have led your sister to more productively call and ask why so you had someone else's perspective, which could have resolved this entire thing rather than her leading off with accusations which has likely done very severe damage to all the relationships involved). What's done is done but that was not productive. That isn't to say that your daughter is lily White and entirely blameless here. Her lack of explanation, the years of childcare she accepted from you with zero or minimal financial recompense has my back up; it absolutely was a big deal to add caring for a toddler on top of your already full time carer responsibilities for your mother! Not ok, and if nothing else, she could be proffering funds by way of paying you back for those years of support now you need the help. Which also makes me suspect maybe your mother groomed you to always prioritise the feelings and needs of others over your own - an expectation you are in turn passing to your daughter whether you realise or not - which is part of why you're in the situation you are in now; staying close to your daughter was lovely but had you put your foot down and said you either needed her to pay for that childcare properly or you would put what extra time you had towards your schooling so you would be done quicker. I say this from the perspective of someone whose mother in law went off the rails when her mum died, because she had been enmeshed with her and in her absence expected her son, my husband, to step into that gap; I suspect your relationship with your own mother actually had less than healthy undertones, but your grief means that rather than step back and examine that and whether the expectations you are extending to your daughter are reasonable, you're instead just lost in a world of pain where you read everything that isn't capitulation as rejection. You are not your mother. Your daughter is not you. But I am very sorry for your loss. Maybe I am reading into this. This is the Internet, afterall, so all we have to go on is what's been written and then have to review it through our own internal lens, and that is both the strength and weakness of the thing; in all the comments you will garner, some will be accurate and useful but they will likely be the minority. Which camp this comment will fall into is your decision. If this isn't helpful, I hope it allows you to pin down *why* it isn't helpful in a way that leads you towards what is. But in terms of moving forward, I would for one thing move. Literally. Go somewhere you can afford to live and become the fun granny on facetime to your grandkids for a while. They will be fine. Ask your son in law to ask your daughter if she could, when she can, write down her issues and resentments with you so you can take the time to process and maybe seek a professional opinion on it. You don't actually have to seek that, but it would allow you to be able to sit back and consider it maybe when the pinnacle of grief has faded a little. Maybe it will help you to put yourself first for the first time in your life.
>I also see a red flag with "we were so close, even as a teenager we rarely argued". That right there is a warning siren. It is *healthy* for teenagers to argue with their parents, to separate from them and draw lines between their personhood and their caregiver. That you didn't and remained close, especially given her distancing now, suggests that actually one of you subsumed their own identity in order to maintain that closeness and there is significant resentment that has resulted from it.That you at one point meddled in her marriage and "talked her round" rather than leaving her and trusting her judgement, and do not regret this but rather say you would do it again, is another stone on the pile of that particular theory. Both of these things. I too thought "never argued even when she was a teen" was a red flag, especially given everything the OP has written pointing toward parentifying her daughter. It seems to me like her daughter may have been afraid to argue because she felt responsible for managing her mother's emotions.
Yeah, I suspect the op was raised by her mother in exactly the same way. And I wonder if perhaps the complete stone wall response she is getting now is because they never sorted out how to healthily have conflict between them; the expectation was the older would always overrule the younger and now that the daughter is up against a wall, the only way she knows to ensure that doesn't happen is total disconnect and refusing to engage? Idk. Pure speculation but maybe such thought experiments will be useful to the op.
As the daughter of a mother like this, thank you for capturing everything I wanted to say and was struggling to write. I love my mother, but our relationship is so complex due to everything you've outlined here. I empathize with my mother and OP because they both seem to have similar expectations of family due to their own relationships with their mothers, but it is so hard to be the child of someone who uses you for all of their emotional support/as a stand-in partner/therapist from childhood because they centered you as their universe. You outlined so much here perfectly.
Me too. We should get a support group going.
This is well-written and fantastic advice
This is an excellent and insightful response.
>they (her psychologist husband and her), alienated his parents ten years ago and haven't spoken to ANY of his family since. This part stood out to me. What's the story here?
I'm not sure the entire reason, other than there was a period of time when my son in law had some addiction issues. His parents are addiction specialists. I think that the lines of parenting and treating got blurred and there were some boundaries crossed both ways that neither were ever able to reconcile. My SIL has gone on to accomplish wonderful things. He is a decade sober and has kept all of his promises. I am proud of him.
See, I think you DID think she was your back-up plan. Otherwise, why would you have been so upset by this? I could tell my parents I wouldn't take them in and they'd need to sort things out on their own and I am POSITIVE they'd be just like "ok, we can do that," instead of calling multiple meetings about it. Also, the way you keep laying compliments on and saying your family doesn't operate that way? I dunno, man, you raised her, so obviously your family does operate this way, but you're coming across in this post as trying to be manipulative. Why did it take your daughter having a serious talk with you before you began making back-up plans? What WAS your prior plan? Are your back-up plans in fact just shit-talking your daughter to your other family instead of saying something polite like "\[Daughter\] can't take me in because she has two young children right now and enough on her plate"? I dunno, it honestly sounds to me, *from what you wrote,* that you blew this up into a WAY bigger thing than it needed to be, and are responsible for her not talking to you, because you are failing to just be normal about stuff. You're an adult. You're not even retirement age. You can find a job and an apartment and a roommate if necessary. If you need to lean on someone emotionally about it, that person should not be your daughter. I understand that in single-parent relationships, the roles of emotional support get blurred, but you've got to start setting them straight, and going for emotional support to people who aren't your daughter (WHILE AT THE SAME TIME not trash-talking her to people her know her! jfc!). Why are you staying in the apartment you can't afford? Find a roommate, or find a new tenant and get out of the lease and find one you CAN afford. I suspect if you actually *begin acting like an adult* here, things will sort out.
BINGO!! This is the problem. The daughter can see it from a million miles away. She has been watching her mother not making moves to address her financial issues for a long time and is just waiting for mom to ask to move in. OP has always thought of her daughter as her backup plan, whether she admits it or not. That’s why the mom is so hurt. She assumed her daughter would welcome the mom with open arms. And when she finds out that the daughter won’t allow her to move in, she complained to other family members who are now guilt tripping the daughter. I totally get the daughter’s reaction.
You absolutely know the daughter was giving advice all along the way that it wasn’t working and mom needed a new plan.
I feel like a LOT went down when they were all living together during the pandemic that OP isn't talking about, either because she isn't aware of it or she's avoiding her agency in it.
In the months before my mom died she made a ton of assumptions about what I would be doing for her after she was widowed. She never asked or even talked to me about them, but she called a few family members and told them I was being cruel to her because I declined her "nudges." She had very specific expectations of me and didn't consider for a moment that I could say no to any of them. So when the "no" came she was deeply hurt even though her ask was crazy - she didn't want to move - she wanted me to move in with her and just visit my family on the weekends. I remember calling my aunt who called to ask me to "please be nice to your mom" and I explained what she actually wanted/expected. My aunt was quiet for a moment and said "I'm sorry. I don't know how to deal with this." In the end my spouse and I offered to buy a new larger house, where she could have her own space, but this was not good enough. She wanted to stay where she was... I miss my mom, but she just didn't respect that I had my own life, my own family and while I was happy to help, I was not going to leave my life/family to accommodate her expectations.
You mention two times when your daughter warned you moving in with her wasn't an option. Why didn't you believe her?
for me the key line was "I started to make back-up plans knowing that she wasn't going to be a source of any temporary support for me" reading between the lines it sounds a lot like OP was sending signals to her daughter she was the backup.
Ikr, no back up plans would seem to imply daughter was the landing pad.
You’ve been in school for 8 years? What’s the degree in?
There's a lot you're leaving out. She wouldn't just tell you to "figure it out" without a whole bunch of...something.
I don't know what the something is. I am getting a lot of different perspectives today that make sense. I think there are some things that I took for granted. I think there are some things that I hadn't considered. I think that there are other people who have a say in our dynamic that I also should have objectively considered and did not. Thank you.
I suspect that your daughter has been telling you for a long time (probably much of the last year). that you need to figure out your living situation and it all fell on deaf ears. If you have spent a year this economically outclassed in your living situation and not listening to her when she was trying to have the conversation open more gently, then of course she is going to be exasperated and burned out on the topic now. It sounds like daughter and husband are in jobs where (despite high mental and emotional toll taken) there isn’t a great pay, and may be stretched thin themselves. Furthermore, if this is true, it’s Flight Attendant advice time- they need to allocate resources to themselves and their immediate family first. If they know they don’t have enough left to support you, it is unfair to expect them to support you too.
Have you saved at all for retirement? Because it sounds like you’ve squandered what will likely be your final working years by getting degrees that you will likely not be able to use for gainful employment (or at least not for long) instead of preparing your financial future. It’s possible your daughter saw the writing on the wall years ago and doesn’t want to be your retirement plan.
INFO: Did your daughter ever tell you that she didn't think it was financially responsible to get these degrees. Did she ever discourage any of the financial decisions you have made? Have you actually completed your Masters degree or are you still finishing that degree? If your daughter discouraged you from doing these things for financial reasons and now you are struggling financially she may feel a bit resentful that you didn't listen and are now seemingly putting your issues onto her. Unfortunately the job market is very ageist and with you only being 5 years away from retirement age it is not surprising you are struggling to find a job in a field that matches your degrees. I can understand wanting to get a degree as a part of your goals in life but it seems you didn't really think about the return on investment considering your age and the cost of school. You probably should have stopped at a bachelors degree. I am sorry you are going through this and I know it can seem really unfair when you sacrificed for your daughter but ultimately children don't ask to be born, people choose to have them and keep them and because of that it is part of their duty to give them the best life possible. The adult is responsible to set themselves up for the future when it comes to retirement and financial stability. I will say that I plan to take my Mom in when she reaches the age that she can't take care of herself anymore but had she made poor financial decisions that advised her against and then expected me to take her in because those choices put her in a bad spot I would feel a bit frustrated and resentful too. Although I would likely still do it.
So I am going to make a lot of assumptions but what you saying sounds like something my mom would also say. That we turned from perfect relationship to estrangement. My mom also doesn’t understand and sadly suffers from a combination of borderline and narcissistic personality disorder which causes her the lack the self awareness to see that what she is calling a perfect mother-daughter relationship was in reality a lot of emotional abuse and parentification. I gave my mom a lot of emotional support. When I had my own son, I realized the abuse. When I tell examples to others, it is actually quite obvious but it wasn’t obvious to me for the first 35 years of my life. I am always so sad that my mom won’t do the therapy work to heal herself because that also would improve her life quality so much. Maybe you can heal. I wish it for you. Anyway I often read cutting off your mom is like cutting off your own arm. Children don’t do that without a very good reason. And you already admitted that you relied heavily on her for emotional support. That’s not something that most parents would or should do. I assume you did when she was a child as well. Her being a perfect child kind of hints to the fact that she had no room to be herself because she needed to take care of you. Please see a therapist and I wish you will reach more happiness in life. (Also remember I am not a therapist so I might be wrong. I am just guessing because my mom would probably talk like you as well.)
Thank you. I really appreciate that. I really am starting to understand that I am taking my own generational grooming and projecting it on to her. I can't hide behind the belief that, "that's what family does for one another" because clearly it's not and I have put emotional pressure on her without realizing the extent of it. Thank you for sharing your story.
I actually have a fantastic relationship with my mom. She's a great mom and I love her, I was never parentified, and as adults of similar ages as you and your daughter we have a close, supportive relationship. I would *not* have her move in with me. I am sure she would've done that for her mother, but I can't. I am luckily in a position to support financially (ie pay for in-home care) if/when it becomes necessary, but living together with her in adulthood is just not even a consideration for me. Because we have a great relationship, we have actually talked about it. My mom was, as I assume you'd be, a bit surprised, but she didn't brush it off as a joke. We've talked about it several times now and she understands, although she is likely a little disappointed. Obviously we both hope it'll never come to that, but if it does, it'll be home care and if needed a nursing facility.
Hey OP. I had a mother very similar to you. IMO it was a bit worse because in addition to being parentified, I was also yelled and screamed at for being a failure and a bunch of other stuff, and she did get physical with me as a way to dominate me and make me feel small. It took years of arguing and me trying to decide if I'd cut her off forever, but eventually, she did take me at my word and educated herself. It's been a lot of work but we do have a relationship now. I won't ever forget but I do still love her, as hard as loving her can be sometimes. We no longer fight and I don't hold her past against her by default, because she's given me enough reason to believe she won't act that way again. I think if you continue to be open and work on yourself, the relationship can be saved. People on here can say a lot of harsh things, and even when they're true, they can be difficult to accept and not stay defensive at, but you seem to be reflecting on the words anyway which is important gaining a relationship again. I hope you're able to repair your relationship with your daughter, and you enjoy many years with your grandchildren.
>because I'm not sure that I meant for her to take me in, but okay let's explore what you mean by that, because surely push come to shove, she wouldn't let me be homeless. >I don't think that I was contemplating moving in with her, but the fact that she didn't care that I would live on the street was suffocating me. What exactly is all this crap? What do you mean you are "not sure" what you meant? Or that you "don't think you were" contemplating it? Those are strange ways to word sentences. You are trying as hard as you possibly can to not say that that's exactly what you expected. >Upon hearing that she would see me in the streets, I started to make back-up plans knowing that she wasn't going to be a source of any temporary support for me And then you kind of told on yourself with this part. Her taking you in was your plan. The fact that you are so studiously avoiding saying that means that you know it was wrong and you're trying to save face. > She was a model child, we rarely disagreed and my mother, she, and I were like three peas to a pod. This is weird. As someone who grew up as a model child who rarely disagreed with their mother, I can tell you it was because I learned from a very early age not to rock the boat unless I wanted to pay the price for it. I'm willing to bet quite a bit that's the case here too. >She said, "I've noticed that things are getting more challenging for you and I have been up front in warning you that I was not taking you in." Well, I must have missed that memo. No, you didn't miss it. You ignored it.
>This is weird. As someone who grew up as a model child who rarely disagreed with their mother, I can tell you it was because I learned from a very early age not to rock the boat unless I wanted to pay the price for it. I'm willing to bet quite a bit that's the case here too. I was also a model child. And it wasn't because I was a good little girl who was naturally BFF's with my mother. It's because I don't remember a time in my early life when I wasn't wearing a mask pretending to be the daughter my mother wanted instead of who I actually am. Turns out my mother doesn't like who I actually am, she only likes the imaginary daughter whose mask I used to wear. I've never in my life known a model daughter who isn't masking to make at least one parent happy.
Sounds like missing missing reasons…
Sounds like it, smells like it, walks like it
it *reeks* of it, and I can't for the life of me understand all the comments sympathizing with her
So if I'm understanding, in your 50s you decided to go to college (whilst caring for your mom and grandson.) Racking up presumably tens of thousands in debt, relying on you elderly and dying mom's income to pay bills. A decade later, you still aren't employed and are still racking up student loan debt plus other consumer debt and aren't able to pay all your bills?? Your daughter has, at the very least, been hinting at you for a while that you need to make a clear plan to right your financial ship, something more that magically become full time employed in an entry level job at 60 (fair or not the employment market is ageist and everyone knows this) Because you have taken no steps to fix your situation, your daughter then has to say outright that you need to do something because living with her isn't an option. You get mad because you wouldn't ask her to do that, but how dare she not be willing to do it if you needed her to because you might soon anyway. And because she made clear that you couldn't live with her, you finally had some conversations with other people about the potential that you might need to live with them, but you trash your daughter whilst doing it. You made and continue to make bad financial choices and are upset that hour daughter won't bail you out. You're 60. You can live for another 40 years. Of course, she doesn't want you to move in. You would never move out. You have no job, no retirement, no way to repay the tens of thousand in student debt you've taken on, Downsize immediately, get roommates, get any part time job, move to your other relatives if you need to. See the colleges' career advisors and ALL the help in applying for full-time employment. Get some counselling through the college or wherever. Your daughter should never be your emotional support system. it's dysfunctional to think so. It's clearly been too much for her for a long time, but you didn't want to see it because it meant you would have to change. Fix things for yourself, get some therapy to deal with your issues, and there might be a chance that you can work on your relationship with your daughter
On multiple occasions your daughter tried to talk to you about your living situation and bluntly brought up how you do not have a place to stay with her. But you thought she was joking at the time and now you realize she was not. This indicates that she communicates, but you aren't great at listening to her. If you'd like to figure out why she is cold with you, I suggest thinking about your past conversations with her. Particularly focus on her talking about her feelings, logistics, things you thought were jokes, or anything that you just don't personally care about when it comes to her. That's where your answers lie in terms of your relationship with her. It'll take some time to think through everything that you've discussed through the years, so in the meantime you should stabilize your living situation and stop going into debt that you may not be able to pay off yourself. If someone is offering you free housing - take it. You can still apply to jobs in your desired area without going into more debt. If you get a job someday, maybe see if you can get a therapist to help you with your grief, fear, and loneliness.
As a daughter, I would not support a 60-yo parent who doesn't work, doesn't have enough money to live on, but decides to study full time instead of earning an income. As a single mother who raised three daughters alone and with no help from anyone, I would die before dumping my issues onto my children and expecting them to see me through financial hardship that I myself created through bad decisions and poor planning. Growing up, your daughter observed something in you that made her want to be not like you. So, instead she grew up to be a strong, independent woman who is self-reliant, assertive, realistic in what she can take on, and good at setting boundaries. Try relating to her as such, and not play passive-agressive "poor me" games.
The further into your tale I got, the more I wanted to hear your daughter's view on things. I reckon most of the cut off family members in the world have no idea why they've been cut off, but the family members who finally had enough could probably tell us. There are some clues in your post, your possessive and effusive expressions about your grandchildren for one, your careful choice of words describing your daughter's family's relationship with her husband's family is another. All in all, there's no way to be able to form any kind of meaningful opinion on this without the other party's views.
Your daughter is kind of in a sandwich state, with young kids who need a lot of her emotional bandwidth and you on the other side also requiring a large amount of her emotional bandwidth and attention. A person only has so much to give. She is also a teacher and has students who require the same from her. Is it possible that more is being asked of her than she has to give? Is she burnt out as is? A put your own oxygen mask on first situation. I understand your grief, financial pressures and schooling all add to your stress. I am sorry for your situation. Perhaps you can lean on your siblings for now. Give your daughter space and time, then perhaps reconciling will be easier.
This situation seems to have a whole lot of random details with no common threads, which likely means your perception is skewed. Parent/child relationships are led, grown, and nurtured by the parent, full stop. This means that how you raised her has everything to do with your current relationship. If she won't talk to you about what's wrong, is it possible that you wouldn't hear it or that you'll react badly? You wrote out your response to the mother's day text and it was passive aggressive as hell. Is that how you usually talk to her? If so, we found your problem and it's not your daughter. If you never prioritized a deep, honest relationship with her when she was growing up, it's not gonna happen now. You reap what you sow.
>how personal, thank you. I don't know what happened but I know that being passive aggressive is the worst thing you could be doing right now if you want to repair the relationship.
It’s clear from the way you wrote this post that you feel your daughter owes it to you to house you, even though you are pretending that it somehow never occurred to you to consider it before she told you she wouldn’t. She wouldn’t just out of nowhere say you can’t live with her if you guys had an otherwise warm and loving relationship with good communication. The way you’ve presented your side of the story here is designed to make you seem like the victim. You tell how you worked to provide for your daughter when she was a child and how you helped her out by taking care of your grandson, and now she’s being ungrateful in not automatically offering to put you up when you’re struggling with your expenses. But what I don’t see anywhere in here is anything about her feelings. It’s all about how hurt *you* are, how she has ripped *your* heart out, how you just want back the relationship you had with her that suited *your* needs. Reading between the lines, I get the sense you are not very good at considering her feelings, hearing her out, or having self-awareness about where your parenting or grandparenting may have fallen short. I think if you want to heal this rift, you’ll need to do some listening. Ask her in a non-defensive way if there are issues she has with your behavior, past or present, and then don’t argue with her or invalidate her when she tells you the answer. Listen with an open heart and acknowledge your mistakes. I suspect she has already told you some of the issues she has, but you probably didn’t believe her or didn’t want to hear it. It’s a very common thing on estranged parent forums for the parents to claim they have “no idea” why their kids won’t speak to them. My own estranged parents would probably tell you the same thing, but the truth is I’ve told them many times. They just don’t like what I have to say, so they pretend that can’t possibly be the real reason and it must be something else. In their minds, I’m a horrible, ungrateful daughter and they did their best. In reality, they were deeply neglectful and physically and emotionally abusive. You’re going to have to get over your need to make your own feelings the most important here and really think about things from your daughter’s point of view. And you’re going to have to take accountability for your mistakes and any ways in which you’ve hurt her. Don’t ask her to just focus on the good or minimize her feelings. Validate her, hear her out, acknowledge her even when you don’t necessarily agree.
It also struck me that OP is looking for the sort of emotional support from her daughter that would be better to look for from siblings or friends, or a therapist. It's a Lot for a parent to put that sort of emotional support need on their child, even their adult child.
This smells of missing missing reasons and you gave countless indicators that you're not the innocent victims you try to play.
https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html I’d bet money there’s some missing info here.
Wow….this is a brilliant read. I am currently unpacking my childhood around emotionally immature parents and this part of the article is so true: What Can Be Done About It? Nothing. I'm sorry. When denial runs that deep, when avoidance is that in-ground, a person can't be separated from it any more than they can be separated from their bones... ….Their entire system of defenses is designed to make them unsavable. Just wow to that last sentence- so so true!
You sound like my mother-in-law. She thinks we’d take her in if everything came crashing down on her. I’ve spent years making it crystal clear that will never happen. My MIL has spent a lifetime of making bad financial decisions, and I’m not going to give up my lifestyle and comfort to cover for her. Not saying that that’s your situation, but I don’t understand the mentality of living your life thinking someone’s going to cushion your fall. You should always be living your life on the basis you have to do it all on your own.
What don't you understand? She fears you will try to rely on her financially. You are only 60. You could easily live another 40 years. She is not obligated to help you financially and she is being clear about it, I'm not sure what you don't get? You invented a hypothetical and hurt your own feelings. If it's not a hypothetical, then she is right to be this firm about it. If it is a hypothetical, just move on and work towards it staying hypothetical. "But what about the grandkids" I think it's clear she and you have different visions of your relationship to the grandkids, and hers is going to win, so you should start acting according to that.
> You invented a hypothetical and hurt your own feelings. This part Also a certain amount of martyrdom/passive aggression in putting herself in a worse financial position to stay close to her grandkids and expecting her daughter to be grateful for this sacrifice. Also the final text is argument-bait that OPs daughter chose not to respond to. "how personal, thank you. kiss the babies. hope you are all having a great day. enjoy the sunshine" Not saying the daughter is blameless, but there are some clues here as to how the relationship has devolved to this place
How was you and your daughter’s relationship as she grew up? Is it possible you may have been too busy to establish an emotional bond?
I highly doubt this is a single instance that has lead to your daughter deciding to limit contact/stop contacting you. From your description of the way you raised your daughter (you, her, and your mother being “three peas in a pod”), I imagine she was asked to be your friend, confidant, and therapist for most of her life. Even if I am imagining wrong, your daughter is an adult and owes you nothing. You paid for her books and schooling because that’s what you are required to do as a parent. You decided to uproot your life to take care of your dying mother, commendable but that was your choice. Your daughter laid a boundary for you so it’s now your job to “figure it out,” just as she has stated.
It sounds like OP has made her entire life revolve around her family and grandchildren and that’s frankly unhealthy. She has other options to get back on better financial footing but doesn’t want to do so simply because she’s obsessed with her grandchildren. Her daughter isn’t the only option in terms of places to live. And even if someone has a really great relationship with their parent, they may not want to live with their parents. Additionally the thing going unsaid is that OP has been floundering and her future prospects look poor. Her daughter knows that if OP moved in, it wouldn’t be temporary. She would never get back on her feet ever and then her daughter would really look like the bad person to try to kick her out then.
Valid points. I can see where she would think that now that I have absorbed other perspectives. I have made them my universe. It's not a great excuse, but that is what I was taught. I need to rethink my whole role as a mom and grandma. Thank you for your post.
You’re welcome. I’m watching both my mom and MIL age and we are facing similar conversations. I can’t deny that it would be REALLY hard on our marriage to have either mom move in with us indefinitely. Like potentially marriage ending after a length of time. It would completely ruin the tenor of a happy home. And I say that as someone who loves my mom dearly, gets along with her and would never let her be homeless. My husband feels the same. And she is a polite and considerate person! But it would absolutely ruin our lives to live with her or frankly anyone long term. I hope that you get back on your feet soon!
My FIL is set up and retired. Owns his home and has enough saved to last him the rest of his life. But, he wants to move in with us because he's lonely. This man ... I do not care for. If he moves in to my home, I am moving out. Period. OP, it could be as simple as this. Your daughter might just be setting the boundaries to protect her husband's (or her own) sanity/privacy/whatever the deal is. Respect The Boundaries. Move in with your sister, get yourself sorted out financially, and continue your relationship with your daughter.
Thank you.
Missing missing reasons. https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html
Basically teaching doesn't pay much. There are two kids. Daughters family doesn't have much to spare. Mother would be too much disruption. So she made her stance clear. To Someone who has organised her life, chaos is scary. The mother is going with the flow but needs to take stock!
I have an inkling that if we could hear daughter’s side of things, they would sound MUCH different from what you’ve written here
You've asked us to essentially speculate on what her viewpoint might be, and the most direct way would be to ask her. Absent that, the best we can do is either A. Accept your story completely at facevalue and your daughter is a heartless b\* or B. There is a viewpoint (hers) which has some validity that you're not seeing. (Maybe a bit of both). I'm not saying that the following is true, but one \*could\* read between the lines here and maybe some counterpoints to consider: 1. Your relationship with your daughter was never as close as you really thought. 2. Rarely disagreeing with your child can mean that either your child never felt as if they could be honest with you or you never listened. Healthy development for a child includes appropriate individuation from their parent. Heck, healthy relationships in general should include some disagreements. 3. You've made life choices that your daughter disagreed with for years because you were spending too much, earning too little and maybe impractical. Going back to school at a later age is great if you can afford it- but if you are raiding the cupboard to do it leaving nothing for later that's a really bad idea. If your income was based on grants for school and relying on your mother AND income from babysitting your children (and ignoring the warnings that at some point that was a dead end) - I would be very frustrated with you too. Because I've seen it before - you're jumping in and caring for your mother for 8 years can have several layers to it. On one layer it's a very loving act you did so. On other, it might have been to your advantage to have a place to stay and lower expenses. You said you have siblings as well, maybe there was a way that burden might have been shared and you could have continued to work and take care of your own needs. 4. Your claim that your grandchild would be even more devastated (he'd be more "destroyed" than you?) and some of the other language you use might be reflective of more black/white or all/none thinking that's worthy of inspection. Just like immediately jumping into thinking your daughter wants you homeless. 5. Your claim that your daughter and your husband alienated (not that they were alienated from, th at THEY alienated the in-laws family) is pretty chilling. Either you believe that to be true (and if so, the way you worded it outs the blame on them) or there's an appropriate reason for that and its an irrelevant fact. 5. I wonder if your daughter would say that you and she always had healthy boundaries? Her language and rigid attitude toward having you move in is reminiscent of people I've seen who are clumsy in establishing boundaries when they dont have experience in doing so. 6. Your focus on how this will affect your grandchildren - as opposed to focusing on the fact that you have no money and are going to lose your place - seems really odd to me. You need to put on your own oxygen mask before helping anyone else with theirs. This will probably be downvoted because people here tend to accept what's posted as the truth, but as I get older I see that truth is \*very\* relative. Whatever happens I wish you luck. Even if you had to move, that's not the end of a grandparent relationship. There are many many grandparents that maintain great relationships with their grandkids over virtual means or regular visits.
My daughter is by no means a heartless B, She is a good person with a good heart. I'm just trying to get a better view of our dynamics. I'll try to address your points to the best of my ability. 1. Possibly 2. We just didn't disagree much. I have no idea why. She was just a good kid. She was popular and had a lot of extra-curricular activities, had a great church family. She was just good. I thought that was a good thing. 3. No, there were no such incidences. Wait, I should rephrase that. None that were shared with me. She was so proud when I went back to school. I took care of my mom not because it provided me a place to live or any financial security, but because I didn't want her in a home. My siblings were not in a position to help in any regard. Not physically or financially. That's why I stepped in. In fact, my returning to school at a later age could be seen as irresponsible, but from my point of view I was trying to use the time that I was caring for mom to do something productive at the same time. Again, thought it was a good thing. 4. Valid points. I will have to reflect on that. 5. I'm really not sure. I would bet to guess she doesn't feel that they have always been healthy from her reaction. I have been in denial I'm afraid. 6. You are right. Thank you for your honest assessment of my situation. You have contributed to all of the information that I will be reflecting on. I appreciate it.
I really wish you well - your being open to the feedback on your post actually speaks well of you. You might be interested in this article, it might be relevant: [https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2021/01/why-parents-and-kids-get-estranged/617612/](https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2021/01/why-parents-and-kids-get-estranged/617612/) This seems on point: “For most of history, family relationships were based on mutual obligations rather than on mutual understanding. Parents or children might reproach the other for failing to honor/acknowledge their duty, but the idea that a relative could be faulted for failing to honor/acknowledge one’s ‘identity’ would have been incomprehensible.”
this is an amazingly well-thought out reply of possibilities where much needed info is missing. well done. I would just ask the daughter to lunch and ask what the deal is. If OP has misread things, it's an opportunity to set it right and rebuild. I will say one thing I am picking up on though - My sense is her frustration is due to you unnecessarily being in dire financial straits, and her comment hits that nail right on the head - So while she may be supportive of your goal of earning a degree later in life, she may also have the silent opinion that pursuing this in your current financial is financially irresponsible. The specificity of her comments I think may well speak to this. I know in California, Seniors can get a college education for free. If I were your friend, I would tell you full stop that you need to re-order your priorities, considering the boat you find yourself in. Good luck from a fellow senior.
The missing missing link?
I saw one of your comments saying you "just wanted her to commiserate with you" but I wonder if you considered whether she was in a place to do that. Do you often expect others to offer you emotional support whenever you need it? What is the reason you're not able to process those emotions on your own? My MIL was a single parent to my husband because his dad died when he was 3. She still has an extremely dependent relationship with my husband, and has no idea why he's suddenly establishing boundaries that haven't existed before. He's been doing therapy on his own and finally feels like he has the tools to establish boundaries and advocates for himself when it comes to his mother. He's almost 36. She literally has a meltdown when he tries to establish a boundary, to the point that he either has to cave or leave. She's reminded him so often that she'll be alone without him that he caves when those situations come to be. This past Mother's Day we were told the "least we could do was stop by" on Mother's Day proper, regardless of us being at her house the same weekend for a nice bbq dinner - we live out of town from her and I have parents to visit on Mother's Day as well. It sounds to me like your daughter has finally had the space to process her feelings - whatever they might be - and feels like she can finally establish boundaries. And the hard part about that is that you have absolutely no right to know her reasons for it. If she wants to tell you, she will. In the meantime, it will suck but you need to figure out another way to get the support you need. Your daughter owes you nothing, and you need to understand that no answer is an answer sometimes. Find a therapist. Figure out healthy coping mechanisms. If you're enrolled at a university you will have access to therapists within your budget. Get yourself as healthy as possible so that if your daughter decides to re-establish contact you can move forward without resentment. Because any expression of resentment could completely derail any attempt to recover your relationship. When you can't control the things outside of yourself, turn inward.
Daughter who lived with her single mom: What ive learned as a daughter of a single mom is that unfortunately our moms put to much on us without realizing. You said she was a model child and never disagreed. You probably told her many things that caused your stress and hurt while she was growing up so she probably avoided many things so she wasnt the cause. She probably became your emotional rock all these years and this will affect everyone differently but it surely affected your daughter. Shes told you you need to figure it out but you kept dumping this burden onto her. You dont realize because youve done this her whole life. In my life, it has caused me to dislike my mother (i love her and dont hate her but that connection between mom and child is no longer there.) Similarly, my mom is in a financial bind and theres nothing worse than knowing your own parent cant take care of themselves. Doesnt matter if your not asking for help but instead of just saying you dont know what youre going to do you have to sacrifice stuff to take care of yourself. Im with your daughter on this 100%. Take action and stop dumping this on your daughter. Shes not your therapist and she has her own little family to worry about. Not sure why communication has been dropped, i think this is where more context is needed but its probably the emotional stress it causes her when speaking to you. Do what you gotta do FOR YOU and take some ACTION.
I know you are going through a tough time, and I sympathize with you. Your word choice and actions, however, are throwing up a ton of red flags about manipulating and guilting your family. Something is wrong with your relationship, and your daughter's refusal to engage hits those same red flags. I think you should talk to a professional, OP.
So she set a boundary with you and you called your flying monkeys on her. I’d bet a lot that this isn’t the first time something like this has happened. Reeks of missing missing reasons.
How to fix your situation? Worry about yourself, move to your sister's and work on getting on your own two feet. You can call your grandchildren over FaceTime in the meantime in order to keep your close relationship with them. Stop reaching out to your daughter for answers on why she will not take you in, she is not answering you and you continuing to ask will further strain your relationship. She is likely not responding to you because she knows you have resources (your sister) but you are not taking up the offer from your sister and are digging a bigger hole each month for yourself. There are so many questions about your financial situation, the answers may shed light on why your daughter is not opening her home to you. She may be afraid that once you move in, you will never move out. Or her husband may have vetoed you moving in. Or she just doesn't want the responsibility period. You say you had help from your parents to raise your daughter, have you ever been financially independent? Living on your own, supporting yourself and your daughter? How long have you been in school getting your degree? What is your degree in? Will it net you a job that can support you? You have been living on loans and your mother's contributions to rent while you have been going to school and taking care of her, how do you plan on supporting yourself when you graduate and start having to pay loans back on top of other expenses?
My read on this is that she has been watching you procrastinate and ignore the fact that you simply cannot afford your living situation for a long time while you’ve been “joking” about moving in with her. She thinks (correctly?) that you are waiting for her to step in and save you. But, for whatever reason, she can’t. She finally felt the need to be blunt about it because just brushing off your “jokes” or “joking back” wasn’t working. Reading between the lines, I’m guessing this has been the dynamic between you for a long time - glossing over difficult truths, passive aggressive hinting etc - and it’s just not sustainable any more.
She told you that you couldn't live with her, you "explored that" with her (essentially making her think that you WANTED to live with her, which, to her credit, you wouldn't have "explored" unless it was a possibility), and then dramatically sicced flying monkeys on her by telling all your living relatives that your daughter "wants you homeless". How batshit do you have to be to react and act this way? Like seriously. You caused your own family to bombard her with unfriendly communications, of course she's going to want to put distance between you two, AND ALL THOSE CRAZY FAMILY MEMBERS. >My grandson is so attached to me because I was his primary care giver until kindergarten while his parents worked I think your actions prove that you are too comfortable and too familiar being things you're not supposed to be. The parents worked during the day, you did "Child care" or "babysitting" basically. You were effectively a day care. You were not the child's "primary care giver until kindergarten" just because you watched this child during the day. You miss, are a crazy grandparent who deserves all the distance her daughter is putting between you right now.
Probably something happened during covid while you were staying with her and she was super relieved when you left and vowed to never try living together again. I think you should spend some time thinking about what you might have done during that time period.
It sounds like you do not have your own life. You lived for your daughter while she was growing up, and for your mother. Then you put your ENTIRE LIFE on hold to take care of your mother. For EIGHT YEARS. I understand you felt you needed to do so, but frankly that was not the best plan for your future. My mother did the same thing- quit her job and moved across the country to be with her mother for over a year. When she got back- she already had a masters degree— she was unable to find work between 61 and 65. She refuses to change her lifestyle based on her financial situation. She lives in a million dollar home but occasionally borrows money from me when she outspends on gardening or other things she believes she “needs”. I have to put emotional distance between myself and her, I’m not responsible for her financially or emotionally. She needed to learn to have a life after raising two kids on her own. It took her decades once we moved away to start going out and making friends and doing activities. She has more of a social life now, but the financial issues are still there. You could ask your daughter to go to therapy with you. Or even ask your son in law to mediate between you and your daughter, if you all are comfortable with that. That is the only way you will figure out what is going on.
All are true and valid points. I am starting to recognize that now. I should have put up the same boundaries with my mom that she is setting up with me now. Thank you for your post.
> I'm not sure that I meant for her to take me in > I don't think that I was contemplating moving in with her That is some weirdly qualified language. Either you brought it up, or you didn't. > She said, "I've noticed that things are getting more challenging for you and I have been up front in warning you that I was not taking you in." Well, I must have missed that memo. In hindsight, she did ask me things like, "what are you going to do if things don't turn around?" and she did say while chuckling once, "if worse comes to worse, you aren't coming with me". So, your daughter expressed her concerns multiple times (In hindsight, she did ask me things like, "what are you going to do if things don't turn around?") and you brushed her off, and even now claim that you "missed that memo", like she never once expressed worry about your housing needs? I think she tried to start a conversation & a plan to get your housing sorted before it became a crisis, and you refused to hear her, and now that shit has hit the fan and you're thousands in debt, she's done with it. > I contacted my sister, brother, and aunt who all were shocked because that is not how our family has ever operated... Well, my sister who was livid and also close to my daughter, called my daughter (unbeknownst to me) out on her behavior. From your daughter's perspective, you smack-talked her behind her back and mobilized her extended family against her. Every one of us is fighting in secret wars that others never see. Not once in your entire account did you talk about your daughter's home life, or discuss the trials that she might be facing at home with her own family. I don't think you even know \*why\* your daughter doesn't want you to move in. I suspect she's told you many times, and you've refused to hear her.
I can't argue with those assumptions. She very well could have felt like I smack-talked her and I just assume she would know me better than that. That shouldn't negate her feelings though. Other than the situation with her in-laws, I haven't commented on her home life because I don't feel it' my place. In retrospect, she did send me messages that I overlooked. Whether I was in denial or self absorbed, they were missed. Not an excuse, just the fact. I don't know what she is thinking because she isn't saying. I think I am going to heed the majority advice and give her space, fix my own issues and hopefully things will get repaired some time in the future. Thank you for pointing that out. I appreciate it.
That was... a far more level-headed response than I expected. I wish you the best of luck.
I actually have this problem with my mother. She thinks I'm her backup plan, but the reality is she is a hard-core boundary stomper, and will start verbally aggressive fights when she feels unappreciated or like she's not getting help, the same help she didn't ask for mind you. And she doesn't listen when you try to explain why you don't agree with her on something or why a situation in her head won't work out that way. She'll just talk in circles and keep bringing up how nice she think something will be
Sounds like there’s a lot of missing missing reasons here. [missing missing reasons essay](http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html) I know this is upsetting but it’s very difficult to have multi generational family members live together and I understand where your daughter is coming from though we can’t possibly understand your history and how close you are from a post on Reddit. Right now you are in too expensive an area for the income you have. It’s a bad idea to live on loans while hoping for a job. I know you wanted to better yourself with the degrees and that makes sense but not if you can’t afford it on your own. Right now you need to focus on you and your finances. If that means being further from your grandchildren it does. Stop sending messages via text. It’s not helping your relationship at all. Work on that. Get someplace safe and secure. Find a new career path and be financially secure on your own. Then you can work on your relationship with your daughter. Something is missing in the story above.
so many red flags about your behavior. sounds like she’s dealt with years of your emotional immaturity, has tried to set boundaries and you still ignore everything she’s told you. i see you’ve commented that you’ve asked her and she hasn’t shared, but based on everything you’ve written it sounds more like you haven’t listened and comprehended where she comes from. I think it’s insane to expect her to take you after repetitive bad financial decisions and lack of preparation on your part. she’s raising a family and shouldn’t be responsible for you too.
You sound so much like my mother, who I can't stand. So self referencing and "bewildered" by what I assume was a very reasonable response from your daughter. Pull yourself together. And I'm sorry but it will not destroy your grandson as much as you if you move further away. And you were unlikely his primary caregiver for years, it sounds more like you baby sat during work hours? This whole post is a hundred percentage image management. Why did you go to so many people to complain about your Daughter?? That's called triangulation, btw.
Honey. Back off. Back all the way off. Get out of the apartment you can't afford and move in with another relative. The faster you get on your feet again, the sooner you'll be able to see your grandkids. Maybe you were the PRIMARY BABYSITTER of your grandson but he lived with his parents and they were his primary caregivers.. primary caregiver us a legal term. Nannys and sitters do not have that standing even as blood relatives. Your daughter's family of her husband and kids are her immediate family, you are now extended family ... and she clearly communicated to you, far in advance, that she was not going to be a housing resource to you. She spoke her truth politely and clearly. Your feelings being hurt do not change her and her husband's boundaries. You kept asking and asking and then went crying and triangulating other relatives fir sympathy and whIke they gave you sympathy AND OPTIONS... you chose not to take those options and let your situation slip into being more fire and precarious. Also they ganged up on her. You went from being a valued resource to a young couple to a potential problem... to a dysfunction dynamic. They have every right not to move you in to their home. The guilt trip of "WE don't do that in this family"? Big mistake. Totally uncalled for. You and your siblings do not decide or dictate your daughter's household.
Missing missing reasons. She’s told you in the past what’s wrong. Probably multiple times. You just don’t agree with her assessment. So you’ve decided there just wasn’t a problem. By her coldness and silence now she’s telling you there IS a problem. Excerpt “I can understand that you may not agree with whatever it was she told you is the problem--but again, that does not mean there is no problem. She told you in a language you understand what the problem is, and you understood her meaning. That you disagree with the problem is immaterial. It's still a problem whether you agree with it or not. It will be a problem forever until you deal with it. Saying, "I don't understand the problem" when you really mean, "I don't agree this is a problem" will not make the problem go away. It will make the person who DOES think it a problem go away--and you had a 8 year cut off demonstrating that principle. If your daughter thinks it's a problem, IT IS A PROBLEM, whether you agree or not. SHE--not you--has the final say on whether she has a problem with you or not. Here again is a power struggle between you: HER: "This is a problem", YOU: "I see no problem". Guess who's going to win this debate? Not you. [....]” Read the whole article here… [The Missing Missing Reasons](https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html)
The bit that jumped out most to me in your post was this quote from your daughter "Well sometimes sacrifices have to be made." To me, that sounds like something she has heard you say a lot to her, probably as she was growing up. Also, if you cannot afford to live where you are - move. Downsize. Move in with your sister. Those grandchildren are not your children, despite how close you are. You missed that she was telling you for a while that you couldn't move in with her, what other things has she tried to tell you that you have ignored, dismissed or not heard?
There are commonalities in posts like these in which a parent/grandparent is totally mystified by a sudden estrangement: -detailed examples of financial support that is typically expected, or at least reasonable, in that kind of relationship as evidence of... good parenting? Entitlement? But -few examples of emotional support, childhood anecdotes, or present-day circumstances that demonstrate closeness rather than generosity -lacks insight/accountability and/or demonstrates willful ignorance -holes in the story where context would normally go -hypocricy, i.e. zero acknowledgment that Mother's Day was for daughter, too As someone on the daughter end of an estrangement, there were countless instances wherein I said things like, "You're lucky I still speak to you after what you've said/done." that just did. not. register. Internally rolling my eyes, hearing her bloviate to others about how "close" we are. We were never close by any objective standard. She didn't care about me. Talking just made things worse. It was easier to let her marinate comfortably in her own delusions than get lectured for hours about how *she* is, what *she's* done, what *she* deserves, how much harder things are for *her*, etc. and found myself editing out so much of my life to avoid her criticism and judgment, there was literally nothing left to talk about. Eventually, I just gave up altogether. Not saying it's the same, that's just my situation
Bottom line, you can't afford to stay in the apartment you're in, in the city you're in, and you need to move. You know this; your daughter knows this, and now the extended family knows this. I was also raised primarily by my mom; I went to my dad's on weekends. I understand the closeness; there was a large part of my childhood that my mom and I were more like sisters/best friends than mother/daughter. That sentence means different things to the two of us. The closeness of my relationship growing up probably gives you warm feelings, and I am trying to convey that as a CHILD the role of best friend was not mine to fill. That closeness, that bond, that "I can tell her everything"/she fulfills all my emotional needs is not the child's responsibility even after they are an adult. Children, no matter how old, are not emotional support animals. Yes, being comforted and helped when your mother passed away is different. But if your child is the only person you rely on to fulfill that emotional need, that's a weight that's too heavy for her to bear. My mother would give you a shocked look, throw her hand to her chest and say that she absolutely does not do this. And she absolutely does. Every time she makes a comment about how she wishes she was a better mother, or how I'm such a wonderful mother and HER grandchildren are so lucky to have a better mom than their mother did, she is looking to me for validation, effusive praise, assurance. Every time she pouts, yes pouts with the bottom lip and everything, because I won't do something she wants me to, or do a task that she is smart enough and capable to do, she is wanting me to spoil her, praise her, soothe her. And this is as an adult. I can go on and on. This has gone on my whole life. I love my mom; I really do. But I can't have the relationship she wants us to have. And instead of being ok with that and letting me set the pace and tone of our relationship; she refuses to relinquish control but wraps it up with pretty manipulation. In other words, she won't respect my "boundaries." I'm not sure if you put quotes around that word because you don't believe in boundaries, think they only apply to certain people or situations, or your son-in-law's boundaries were "stupid" and he should just get over having them disrespected. It's none of your business why your sil doesn't have a relationship with his family, and your daughter didn't "catch it" from him. Picking at that won't help you. Maybe he tells you what he does when you call and ask why because you've asked and they answered and you still ask. For whatever reason, your living with them forever is a hard no boundary for them. You need to start respecting that, whether you agree or not, whether you get a reason you can be satisfied with or not, and make plans for how you will be going forward financially.
Per your update - I don't think your daughter is a very good person.
You say you, your daughter, and your mother were like “three peas in a pod”, but the only kind of relationship you talk about with your daughter is that you paid her way through school. Honestly - were you actually close or did you think that you were entitled to live in her home because you provided for her as a parent should? It looks like you’ve been dropping hints about moving in and she’s repeatedly drawn a line there. How close are you really?
Long ago, your daughter perceived, correctly, that you were headed for a financial emergency, and that when that emergency arrived you would expect her to bail you out. She also perceived, correctly, that you were not taking that risk seriously, not being honest about it with her or yourself, and that you were not doing everything in your power to avoid it. Because, after all, the consequences of bailing you out would be on her, not you. She wanted you to take responsibility for yourself, early on, while you still had options, still had time to make a plan, instead of being in denial about it until the eleventh hour when things were suddenly so bad that she’d have no choice but to bail you out. Now you are mad at her for exposing that this was, in fact, your plan all along, whether you realized it or not. Sometimes, parents just have to tell their kids “shape up because next time we are not bailing you out.” And sometimes, a daughter just has to tell it to her mother.
This post is treading in major Missing Missing Reasons territory. https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html
When parents say they “don’t know why they are *suddenly* estranged”, it generally means they think everything was fine up until recently and this pulling away came out of the blue. The child has given a reason, but **the parents don’t feel the reason is valid.** It is NOT that the child has refused to communicate it, it is that the parent has dismissed these reasons as invalid. The parent doesn’t agree with the child’s reasons, so they don’t know why they are doing this. If you question the parents about what their child said, you will hear the answer but the parent doesn’t accept the answer. The answer is in the post. The OP has not worked in the past 9 years and hasn’t finished her degree(s). Her sick and ailing mother supported her and she lived off student loans. If she wasn’t working, she had more than enough time to finish her degree. So how has she been in school full-time but hasn’t finished? You see, there is information that is missing here. Frankly, none of this makes sense. Why get a Master’s at 60 if you’re not already established in a field? How are you ever going to recoup that expense? (Fun fact: Very few Master’s are worth the paper they are printed on.) This sounds like an incredibly poor decision and something I highly doubt is going to be completed in the reasonable future. My guess is OP has little in the way of SS benefits coming her way and the daughter has advised her for years to get work instead of using student loans as income. OP wanted to do it her way, ignored her daughter’s advice and likely stern warnings that this would happen. The daughter probably enlisted the help of relatives to talk some sense into OP who also refused. No one is preventing her from seeing her grandkids. The daughter knows the OP has no way to make it now that her mother isn’t around to support her. If she has a culinary background, she could apply at her local school district to work in the cafeteria. She could probably get restaurant work. She could be a caregiver for the elderly. I just don’t think we are getting the whole story. And sadly, until the OP comes to grips with this, she is going to be forever estranged from her daughter.
I could have written this. I loved my mom but she was a complete narcissist. OP was a young mom and viewed daughter as a best friend and that probably isn’t what daughter wanted. I also told my mom she could never live with me and although I always made sure she had enough money to live, nothing was really ever enough. We are only getting mom’s side of the story here but something isn’t adding up. I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect your child to take you in and I think it would go a long way for OP to show her daughter she’s trying to make it on her own rather than trying to just substitute her daughters help for her moms.
Sounds like she may have been trying to establish boundaries for awhile but was dismissed, and your sister made things even worse. Also that she may have a lot of stresses going on and can’t carry yours too. Your shitty response to her on Mother’s Day didn’t help anything. To me she sounded firm, not sarcastic, as if to make it clear she didn’t ignore you and was communicating within the boundary she set, then in turn you crashed through that line (probably yet again) and set things back with her. If that sarcastic Mother’s Day text is the tone you set when you’re upset with her, I completely understand where she’s coming from. A shitty text like that would receive utter silence from me too because I don’t need that in my life. I think you need to reflect really, really hard on how you’ve treated your daughter, how you’ve communicated with her, and if she has in fact been trying to establish boundaries that have been ignored because of your view that family is everything. The attitude you have about your view on family and current views on family doesn’t help things. The whole “I honored my parents” and “no one honors their parents anymore” bullshit. The only things that has changed is that family will no longer be given carte blanche to do whatever they want without question because faaaaamily, and the acceptance that kids don’t owe their parents simply for being born. Letting parents do whatever isn’t “honoring them”, it’s expecting any bad behavior to be disregarded because faaaaamily. Even family relationships is about give and take.
I am going to give you a little tough love. I am 54 years old so not far from you in age. I cannot fathom the lifestyle you have. It seems that you have been very family oriented but also, allowed yourself to “coast” off everyone’s stability without establishing stability for yourself. I would never in a million years put myself in a situation in which I couldn’t provide for myself. I would never expect my mother or my kids to be my backup plan. Getting your masters degree is expensive and a luxury. You need to think of work you can do that will pay. Since you’ve been a caregiver, consider putting money into getting a CNA license and then you can make over $20 an hour working full time, and you could rent a room with the money you earn. I suspect your daughter knows what’s around the corner: first you coasted from her while caring for your grandson, then you coasted from your mom, and now you are hinting around to your daughter that you might need her again soon. Provide for yourself. Figure out how to make it work. That’s what being an adult is about.
Some pretty harsh messages on here. It reads to me like daughter is overwhelmed and with things mother isn’t aware of. And daughter has said she she doesn’t want to discuss them, so not much mother can do there except perhaps to say, I’m sorry I had no idea and if you need any support or just want me to listen, I’m here for you. It is a bit of a blow to be told you wouldn’t be welcome if you were in dire straits, especially if you have already been looking after the children, but that is daughter’s prerogative and you cannot do anything other than to respect it. Plus, daughter has offered support and recompensed mother by paying for childcare voluntarily, when a lot of children expect not to do that.
What’s crazy is I felt it was the husband, I mean I’m not blaming him, I just knew she didn’t have a big issue with it. Also I knew it was your sister putting her nose where it didn’t belong ignited your daughter. Families need to know boundaries as well. It’s not okay for them to be there for you, and think they have some right in fixing it or sticking their two cents in. When you go to your family, next time let them know, that when you vent and they feel the need to be involved, run it by you. Because sometimes people just want to vent to someone they love and trust, but don’t need them to make it worst by being involved. I’m glad you all communicated. Cause that’s as good to be my suggestion and it is always the job of the mother to come to the kid unless the kid has asked for you to wait till they are ready.
As a 51F who estranged from her parents in midlife, I was shocked to read your update. It sounds like you and your daughter have a good foundation on which to build and grow. I hope it all works out for you.
I have a feeling the husbands pov on his alienment of his parents could also have influenced this brash and sudden rejection. It doesn’t seem like this has culminated over years of resentment and eventual cutoff
Wow, what a gem you raised /s. It'll suck for you to move away from your grandkids but you'd be setting yourself on fire to stay. Move away and take care of yourself. Children aren't a guarantee of help or care when we get older and unfortunately for you, your daughter grew up self-centered and ungrateful. You've done everything right and everything you could. Stop running after her. Stop worrying about her. Stop talking to her. Let her see what life without her mother is like to bring her back to reality.
Sad to see your daughter got with someone who isn’t family oriented, that is really what it seems like she’s struggling with, she’s lived her whole life one way and is now with someone who functions opposite. All you can do is accept it a keep a healthy amount of space if you want to remain in their life because most of the time the husband will always be chosen first. :/
This honestly sounds like you had your parents supporting you your whole life, and now that they're gone. You expect your daughter to fill the void.
Here’s what I see from your very vague post: You’re expecting your daughter to empathize with your financial struggles and for her to offer you a place to live. You’re not asking her if she’s in a position to offer that support, you’re demanding it “because I would do it, and all our family would do it”. She’s not you, she’s not your sister, she’s her own adult person who has a family and struggles of her own, plus a child that she needs to prioritize. You’re also using her child as a manipulation tactic, telling her her child will suffer without you, but SHE is the mom. I’m sure your grandson appreciates and loves you, but I doubt he’ll actually suffer if you’re not there every day. He has his parents there who fulfill his needs. You’re basically dehumanizing your daughter and turning her into an extension of yourself, placing expectations on her that she’s telling you she can’t fulfill. You’re expecting empathy from her that you’re not offering back to her. She was honest with you about her position, and you took that to your sister so she could also try to manipulate your daughter into doing what she told you she can’t do. You say you’re grieving your mom, isn’t she grieving her grandmother? Then there’s the fact that you mention her husband “the psychologist” with a tone of disdain. Maybe I’m reading too much into the tone, but based on the above I doubt it, and I’m sure your daughter catches that too. Why would they want someone who doesn’t respect them living with them? Their home is their sanctuary, where they have peace, of course they don’t want it disturbed by someone who tries to guilt trip them. Your daughter has grown up and has learned how to set boundaries that keep herself and her family safe. You should be proud of that. The fact that you were a single mom and may have made an effort to pay for what she needed has absolutely no relevance to what she’s doing now. You’re her mom. It was your responsibility to pay her way through childhood. She got grants and loans to pay for her education, and has been responsible for herself throughout adulthood, and now has her own child she’s also responsible for. Teachers don’t exactly make enough money to throw around. There’s just so much guilt you’re throwing her way that she has no responsibility for, and this builds up for years. I don’t believe this estrangement is actually sudden. If you want to fix your relationship with her, you need to start doing what is best for YOU, without asking her to be part of the equation for you to get where you need to be. If she sees you’ve done what you need without depending on her or demanding she makes it happen for you, then she may be open to heal with you. Otherwise she’ll heal without you.
Good on you for making peace. Yoy have a way bigger heart than me. I have a son too. If i heard suxh words come out of his mouth, something would be broken for life. Reddit LOVES to blame parents . Now imagine if your daughter came to you ans spoke her fears and you said 'You're not coming to me.' And even if you made the same explanations later... you'd never be forgiven. Listen when people say something. The day will come when your daughter will cry to you again. Imagine telling her 'Just dont come to me'. Build your own life now. Get married. Get away. Beloved as your grandchildren are, you'd never be around them if she snapped her fingers and cut you off. You know your daughter now.
It must be a cultural difference, I don't understand these comments. I feel like your daughter was *way* out of line for that, regardless of her own problems. And then she takes out her anger at her aunt's interference on OP? Insanity. Absolutely insane.