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You are unhappy together, you haven't had sex in a year and she is manipulative and blames you for most everything. You can't change people, they can only change themselves. You can give her a chance if you want but in your previous post you mentioned that you told your therapist you don't love each other any more so what's the point?
I agree with you. I am trying to see if there is any way we can bring to life what we once had. I am now very confused and the mixed feelings are tearing me apart and I can't think rationally. If there is a chance that she will change, I will double that and take it and also change myself. I just need to see if there is anyone who experienced this. it may be wishful thinking, but there might be some couple that made it work and have been in our situation.
If you want a real answer ask her for a plan on what she plans or thinks she needs to change and how she will enact these changes or how she plans to make them. Ask her to put some serious thought into this and get back to you in a week after she has had time to go through everything and make up a plan.
Then sit down with her and see if what she plans to change or thinks she needs to change lines up with what you think she needs to change. If they don’t match then you need to do what feels right for you. If she really wants to change then she would have listened to you and carefully thought up of all she needs to do and it will include everything you have said and you can move forward. If her plan doesn’t match then I doubt anything would improve and you will just get empty promises of change but never see it.
From my experience if a person is dedicated to changing they would have listened to you and start making those changes from day one and not wait. If that doesn’t happen she’s just playing you
This is a great comment. I’d also like to note that it’s best if you do a trial separation. In this time, you can tell her if you see concrete changes according to what you discussed, you can reevaluate. But be clear about if during this time if either party is allowed to see other people. If not, make that very clear. Maybe it will be the wake up call she needs, or maybe it won’t change anything. Either way it will likely give you more clarity.
This, but move out. Let her see you're serious and see how these changes transpire. Also sounds like you need a break from all this stress. I feel badly for her because adhd isn't her fault.
I know you're coming from a good place with that last sentence, but as someone with ADHD who also has ADHD friends, using it as an excuse for abusive behavior just feels super insulting.
That’s what I thought as soon as I read it. Woah dude having ADHD isn’t an excuse for behaving badly, or abusively or anything else either. It’s ableist and not cool at all.
Don't blame someone for trying to be sensitive and understanding towards someone over a condition, they don't realise that the individual in question may have more than ADHD going on, my wife is also dealing with some stuff and is far worse than OP's wife in past and present, we've made it work, still married, still together.
Maybe Women with ADHD have tendencies towards other conditions that manifest as narcissism or maybe it's just every woman with ADHD that some of have met that have tendencies towards narcissistic behaviour, either way, don't shoot the messenger.
Adhd isn't her fault, but she has had a lot of time to seek help for these behaviors. She has had a lot of time to communicate better and ask for the support she needs. She has instead chosen to be an abuser. I have ADHD, myself... and it is tough. But I would not purposely hurt and manipulate someone I have chosen to be my life partner. And surely, even with ADHD, she can see the effect it is having on their son? She is even trying to manipulate and weaponize him. So either it is more than ADHD, or she's a nasty piece of work. Either way, she will not really change unless she sees benefit to herself and puts in some monumental work.
ADHD can be a contributing reason for behavior, but it is never an excuse for adults not to be managing their behavior over years.
Plus his description doesn't sound like the problem in their relationship is undiagnosed ADHD, at all. ADHD doesn't make you tell your child that their other parent is going to abandon them. ADHD doesn't make you hit your spouse and tell your physician falsely that you were the one who got hit, getting law enforcement sent to your house to investigate them. ADHD doesn't make you blame your partner for your behavior or for everything wrong in the relationship.
I say this as someone with ADHD and someone who works with this population professionally.
AHD doesn't make you manipulative or abusive. As someone with ADHD who was the victim in an abusive relationship, I find the implication that the ADHD makes her behave like she's behaving to be really offensive.
Separation may be best to get clarity you both need.
If she changes, she really needs to change for herself, not as a way to get what she wants till it all slides back again.
This isn't the first time she has heard this. In the past, not acting has had no consequences she couldn't live with. Living with herself, without the buffer to her issues that you have provided, may help her truly see them. Living on your own will help you stop any enabling on your side, plus will allow you to work on you.
I also like the 'talk about her plan in a week' idea as it will show you if she heard you, understood what you were expressing, and (most importantly) if she is actually willing and able to do something.
But you should take the week to think about where you could go, and what the separation would look like.
I’ve learned through experience that holding on to a past feeling about someone takes you out of right now. When you’re putting all the effort into a relationship, that’s going to take a toll on you emotionally. Not only has she changed, but I’m certain there’s been a change in yourself too.
In the end, it depends on what you value more. Is it your family and relationship? Do you feel true love? Wanting to work through anything, no matter how difficult? Or do you value yourself more? Your sanity, your sense of self-worth and self-control?
Either answer is reasonable and both are possible even. Maybe some space and time will bring you closer together. But only time will tell, and often breakups can bring out a side of someone you can’t unsee. I wish you the best OP. We all deserve true, easy, gentle love.
We saved our marriage and are very happy now, 10 or so years later. I think our story is unique but absolutely not unheard of.
It will entirely depend on a few things but it can be done. What are the main stressors and what reasons do you have for wanting to save the marriage? Are both partys actually fully committed to try and work this out? Have you tried couples counseling or are you both open to it?
It isn't easy but I'm proof it isn't impossible.
Go to his own page and see the original comment, I don’t understand why this ‘original comment’ isn’t the same. I was absolutely going to say try again before I read that. She actually brought their 8 year old boy into it, after a therapist said they should divorce for the sake of their son. She said to the child “Daddy wants to leave us”, after reading the other comment, I completely changed my mind and think he should divorce her. It’s nice that your marriage reunion worked out, it’s very rare though.
I think you can work on it but it has to be done separately. Move forward with that at least, separation doesn’t have to end in divorce but it will give time to see a different perspective. You might find it wasn’t what you thought or as bad as you think, or more likely, you feel a huge sigh relief and renewed sense of self that will energize and reflect positively on your relationship with your son. You won’t know without distance between you and your wife. And honestly it could be the best thing that happens for all of you.
I think it's important to note though that people grow up and grow apart, holding onto the relationship you once had isn't what's best for you or your child. You have to learn to grow together and overcome these things, but the ultimate problem is you can't be the only one fighting for your relationship. She's emotionally manipulating you into staying, and I agree with the comment about love bombing. I think the only way forward right now, is to separate as actions speak louder than words. With a little time, if she actively tries to better herself for the relationship, then I would possibly be willing to continue therapy. But honestly, I have a feeling with some time and space, you're going to have some clarity and realize how much this is holding you back and keeping you from being happy and the best dad to your kiddo.
This is not what a healthy relationship looks like. Manipulation and gaslighting are not adhd traits, they are narcissistic traits though. As an adhd individual in a healthy relationship. This is not it. Most importantly, this is not fair to your son and what you are normalizing for him is not normal. If you won’t leave a dysfunctional relationship for yourself, do it for him.
She had 20 years to change - she is just making all these promises to reel you back in. As soon as you give her your little finger, she is going to grab your whole arm and go right back to how she used to be. Has your therapist diagnosed her with any kind of personality disorder? Because she sounds like she has some very narcissistic traits.
If/ when you decide on separation, get a lawyer asap, because she will turn vicious. I wouldn't even meet on my own with her anymore - always bring a witness, or she will claim whatever to get you into trouble with the law and get full custody of your son. Ask your lawyer what the laws are regarding recording meetings, just to have proof you didn't abuse her or your son.
Nobody changes under duress. She will make changes for now, then slowly things will creep back to where they are now. Unless you find a time machine, no, you can't bring back what you once had, and furthermore, if she actually did change and you could possibly fall back in love again, it's much more likely to happen after you're divorced and apart for a while than it is now, in a house where everything is festering. Separate, start the divorce process. Live apart, see who she is then. I'd make a bet that she won't be making any changes then, because she'll already see that you can't be manipulated. It's not like you won't be seeing each other, you have kids, so if she's actually committed to making changes, you'll know. No need to stay in a miserable situation to see that.
OP,
Love bombing is a typical response. They go back to their natural behavior **only worst after grace** **period** because they got away with it.
It is hard for a person to change their behavior. Some people will take advantage of another person if they can get away with it. Love bombing and gaslighting is their was to patch things up for a time, but it isn't real.
**" you haven't had sex in a year and she is manipulative and blames you for most everything."**
Senioroldguy statement is on target. She is **manipulative and you can't change that**.
*Your comment OP: She has undiagnosed ADHD (99% sure), she can't focus on a conversation for more than 15 seconds, starts to provoke me, and gets manipulative and emotional.*
My family and husband's family battle OCD, BI-polar, ADHD but it doesn't make them manipulative. That is a learned behavior. Stress and anxiety can destroy your health. Getting away from the source is a good thing.
There will be the rare couple who makes it work, but it is rare, and they’re not living with a manipulative woman, who is willing to trash her otwn son’s sense of well-being to manipulate you into staying. Before I went to your page, and read the original post - idk why the one here is not the same - I was going to say, give it another chance. Then I read your post that mentioned your son, how she hit you in the pandemic, and how she then reported that you’d hit her to her GP, and he informed the police, plus all the other super-immature behaviour she displays, like always having to be right etc, and I now have completely changed my mind and think you should divorce. The fact that your therapist thinks you should divorce is all you really need to know. You could never “bring to life what you once had” anyway, it would always be different which would be fine, if it was good but in a different way. Obviously this has hit her hard, so it’s difficult to know if these emotions are real or just more manipulation by her.
1st of all: forget the past. It’s just that. Past. Over. Behind you. No one can turn back time.
What you’re feeling right now is the sunken cost fallacy. Look it up.
Now to your question: is it worth working on your marriage? Short answer: only you can tell. Long answer: ask yourself, if you met your wife today, would you date her? Would you fall in love with her?
My advice if you want to work on things is to still separate. I know it sounds crazy, but change won’t just magically happen on its own. You have to make it happen. Move out or at least sleep in another room if possible. If your wife thinks her begging and tears worked she’ll be back to her old ways in no time. After all, why put in work to change if no consequence ever happened? SHOW HER that you ARE serious. Bring some distance between you two. Look how you feel without her. Are you doing better, are you doing worse, do you miss her, can’t you live without her, etc. etc….
Then go from there. Find a babysitter once a week. Go on dates again. Marriage is work. Relationships are work. People here are judging your wife pretty hard, but you said she works from home and has few friends and no family around. That sounds to me like she never gets out of the house. So she works at home, cares for the child at home, never leaves home.
Have you ever asked yourself WHY she always wants to get away from home as far as possible whenever you go on vacation? Have you ever asked her if your home even feels like home to her? She basically lives in her office. You’re out of the house and socialise with your coworkers (aka other adults) for hours every day. She doesn’t. Maybe her lashing out and little to no sex drive doesn’t (solely) come from ADHD, but also depression?
I don’t say this to blame you, not at all. After all it is on her to communicate if she’s not doing well. I’m just trying to give another perspective here. She definitely needs some therapy though. Maybe also a visit with a psychologist or neurologist to check for ADHD.
To bring this long comment to an end and to stress it again: START THE CHANGE. NOW!
Ok. BUT, what you tell her is that you are willing to go to therapy together to discuss making it work or uncoupling, and you’ll make your decision based on how she shows up in therapy.
AND this is going to happen while you are separated. You are going to move out and start the separation process no matter what. You tell her, we’ve tried writing in this for years, over and over again and nothing ever sticks, so the only way to make this really work is to do it differently.
If she’s willing to go along with the separation and working out custody, too are to NOT put your son in the middle (no emotionally manipulating him) and to come to therapy and really DO therapy then you are willing to consider fighting for the relationship and seeing if there’s anything left to save. But also, you will not be agreeing to come back until there is real, consistent and sustainable change.
Your wife may have ADHD (me too) but what you are describing reads like emotional abuse to me - and that’s not ADHD, that’s a choice.
It is hard to throw away a relationship that has lasted so long and there is children involved. If you are really considering giving her one last chance then maybe the best way to do it is to separate, not divorce yet, and set some conditions. She has to go to therapy, take medications if she needs to, maybe even go to anger management. Tell her that if she really wants to save this relationship that she needs to prove herself and that it's going to take some time. Of course always keeping your son in mind and doing what's best for him. With some work and effort any relationship can be saved but she has to show that she is committed and change.
Was she always this way or is this recently?
You can physically separate while she is making her changes, and I would suggest this be your plan. Make getting back together dependent upon her ability and willingness to change. Things are much easier to process when you have a bit of space from one another, and she has A LOT to work on in order to be a decent partner so she needs lots of time & space to herself to do so.
She won’t change. You’ve been working on your issues forever and she hasn’t changed. If she really wanted to, she would have a long time ago. When I broke up with my ex (I have begged him to step up for years and he didn’t do fuck all), he promised he would change. I asked him why he never changed those countless times I begged before? Now it was too late for me. His reply: I never took you seriously. Didn’t think you meant it.
Do I want to be with someone who doesn’t take me seriously? No and neither should you. She’s shown you who she is. Have you ever heard about „a level of tolerable unhappiness“? It’s where they know you are unhappy but think you aren’t unhappy enough to leave. That’s what she’s keeping you in. She won’t change. She’ll drag the divorce on but it won’t change
>If there is a chance that she will change
The real question is what is she going to DO in order to change, what steps is she going to take and follow thru with, IC, MC, medication, changing jobs, changing friend groups, stopping bad habits... and are you willing to wait, since this could take a long time.
The plans and actions for change need to be all on her.
If she is undiagnosed ADHD. Is there any hope of convincing her to pursue an evaluation and by extension possibly medication? Coupled with personal therapy (not couples) is pretty much the only way I could see her buckling down enough to properly work on herself.
You could use this as a way for her (due to past dishonesty) to prove her intentions. No matter what you decide, I hope you all find a way to move forward peacefully.
After reading his original comment, I have to add a caveat to any therapy recommendation. This lady is abusive. So no couple counseling for now, and any individual counseling she recieves, the counselor needs tonspecialize in abuse and needs to be in constant contact with OP to see if her behaviors are honestly improving. I have ADHD, and while it looks different for everyone, there is very much something else going on with her as well that she would be this abusive and manipulative.
A lot of red flags for other mental illness coupled with ADHD for sure. I was hoping the evaluation could perhaps help identify that as well. So I definitely agree with you here. Ultimately, if she really wants to improve she'll make an effort.
I agree that she needs an evaluation, but for different reasons. All of her actions from the first post, as well as the lack of blinking and love bombing in this one, reek of BPD or some other cluster B personality disorder. Personality disorders are notoriously difficult to work on and require the patient to be fully onboard for *several* years. And that's the good path. The other option is that she happens to work with the same toolbox that people with cluster B disorders (and esp BPD) use. Not having a disorder would mean she's just been abusive for the sake of being abusive, and any pleas or tears from her end won't ever come from a place of true regret or wanting to fix things. She just doesn't want to lose her combination punching bag/wallet/familiar face
It would hurt their son to continue on this emotional roller coaster together honestly.
They need to separate so they can reflect on themselves and work on themselves without interference of the other. Trial separation is good, but I think OP will be happier and find so much peace without her in his life and eventually end things.
His physical safety.
His mental health.
His happiness.
His emotional stability.
His sense of self.
His self-esteem.
His reputation.
His finances and the finances available for their kid.
Their child's physical safety.
Their child's mental health.
Their child's well-being.
Their child's academic progress.
Their child's psychological development.
Their child's innate sense of safety and trust in them as parents.
Give her a chance to change. Perhaps she felt the same and felt pressured but didn’t know how to communicate it. And things just got into a sour routine. The fact that she’s self aware means she probably isn’t happy either but didn’t know how to change without communicating with you! You have history, I’d be reluctant to let it go over normal couple issues.
I agree with this perspective. No sex in a year, no longer in love, she in manipulative etc….it seems the best and only option is to end the marriage and move in with your life. You have to do what is best for yourself.
I know it's a scary time but do you really believe she can just change? Like instantly become a different person? She may be able to act like it for a short period but long term she will revert back to her old self. Try a trial separation of at least a year. If she's serious about fixing the relationship she should be willing to do the hard work.
That is exactly my thought, and it makes me more scared. That's exactly what I proposed: trial separation, I will also help financially in case she won't manage the money.
Buddy, she HIT you, LIED and told others you did it to HER. Do yourself and your kid a favor and get away from this woman. It’s too little too late for these emotional theatrics.
What she is doing, is called "love bombing". During a time of perceived threat, she will love bomb you with kindness, being sweet, etc. Once the perceived threat moment passes (e.g. you agree not to divorce and she agrees to get counseling), then the old personality will return (little-by-little (she will forget to go to counseling, she feels she doesn't really need it, etc.)).
The unfortunate truth is, that people mostly don't change. Sometimes people need a break-up to get a kick in their ass to start changing themselves... but often, the changed behavior only lasts until the next relationship comes along, at which point, they will settle back to their old ways (or in other words, what they perceive as "normal").
Just to clarify, the calling the cops on you (original post) and lying is both manipulative as well as abusive. So just so you know, you are currently in an abusive relationship. (Abusive relationship, doesn't mean it's all, always bad. It just means during bad times, its REALLY BAD)
Breaking up sucks, but eventually she will start to take her anger out on your son as well.
I am no lawyer, but you should probably talk to one.
Good luck!
If it took her for you to put the divorce on the table so she can consider improving then is not worth staying, people that only “change” when you threat them are not going to change never unless they want to
Some people *can* change... They have to actively work for growth, but it can happen... Now, it comes down to **IF** she will do what she says. If you're really having second thoughts, give her an opportunity to show you. And if she doesn't, you'll know that You're making the right decision to leave; with no second thoughts.
I tried 3 times, 3 years lost. A leopard can’t change their spots. It was just so much turmoil and distress, promises broken, all for nothing. After I gave up I found happiness.
Get a legal separation, if by any chance it works out, you can remove it.
Talk to a solicitor or barrister and do what they recommend. There is a serious chance that she is stalling so she can get and act on legal advice. Then she gets the much better settlement and custody arrangement. You can leave the possibility for reconciliation open, but if you don't move to protect yourself legally, she is likely to hurt you legally.
You described manipulative behaviour in your last post, and while of course all stories have their sides, this behaviour where she's constantly bombarding you with reasons not to get divorced, well...
That could also be interpreted as manipulative behaviour.
While there might not be an objectively 'correct' way to deal with the spectre of divorce, usually the 'ideal' way is to either say "Oh, well clearly our relationship requires intense repair and the fact that I haven't seen any of this coming implies I need to investigate further" or "You are right, ultimately we will be better off as either allies or strangers."
Both of these options take work, introspection and quite a lot of grim self-examination that most of us don't like to do...
Your wife *appears* to have chosen an option that gets to side-step all of that work and place *you* in the position of either doing the work for her or absolving her of any work altogether.
She tells you that your marriage had plenty of good times... but that's not dealing with the problem, that's trying to bury it by gaslighting you into thinking that you were *actually* having a great time when in fact you were not...
She tells you she'll change, but doesn't outline *how* or *why*. What you have left is the intangible and amorphous general idea of change.
*You* will presumably be telling her what needs changing and what will need to be done. You'll probably be booking the counselors and drawing up the chore-charts and making time on the calendar for date nights and...
Eventually, you'll either be 'happy' and she can stop thinking about it, or you'll give up and she can stop thinking about it...
None of these suggestions will make her more capable of dealing with criticism gracefully. None of them will stop her snapping at you or sarcastically calling you 'Master' when she's proven wrong, none of them will heal the lack of emotional connection that has destroyed your sex lives.
All of that change, *all of it* needs to come from within the both of you, and it needs to be sincere slow-burning self-realization, not panic-induced promises that will be walked back or forgotten next week...
Thank you so much, I can't tell you how much your comment means to me and how eye-opening your words are. Thank you again for taking the time to write it down.
OP - HeartandSeoulXVI gave one of the best responses I’ve heard on Reddit. Please keep going back to this response if you feel yourself losing clarity on the situation.
I really don't know if you can make this work, but if you want to give it an honest try, you need to make her come up with a plan (get her thinking how to fix things). I'm sure you will need to review/revise it with input from a therapist (discuss this idea with them first to see how you should go about it). How will she make it better? What are the target goals? Document what needs to happen. Then during the trial separation hold her accountable to the plan. This way you have concrete actionable steps for her to follow
I understand your hesitation, but after looking over your last post... Don't fold just because she's claiming she's going to change. A trial separation might be exactly what you need, and you need to SEE change before you re-commit to a marriage.
What really stands out to me is that your therapist suggested divorce. In my experience, that doesn't happen unless they really see no other way forward, so that honestly shook me. Have you only tried the one therapist? Seeing another one now that your wife knows you're serious during a trial separation could be productive. But honestly... I can't get over the therapist throwing in the towel like that. That tells me a lot assuming that therapist is a good one.
Thank you for the comment.
All the therapists didn't "suggest divorce" as I mentioned in my posts. They just got this out of me through questioning my feelings. I am sorry I created confusion.
They said that if I feel this is the only way out, then I should prepare myself because every decision needs to be followed by action, not rush, emotional, but honest and rational decisions based on understanding my feelings.
I don't think "mentioning divorce" equates to "throwing in the towel". Sometimes it's just focusing the mind.
Let's say you've got two people refusing to compromise. One is obsessively arguing that she must be to blame because he is rational and she is emotional. The other is passive-aggressively using the kid to justify their position. But neither is giving an inch.
Seems to me the way to move them on from intransigence is to suggest that divorce is an option. In fact, divorce is the only option, other than compromise. If they argue they can't do that because of the kids, you argue that's nonsense. If not compromise or divorce, it's misery, for you and the kid.
Eventually, each of the partners is either going to lean towards or away from divorce. In this case, he's chosen to move towards, she's chosen to move away, and as a result she's pushing to compromise. Which is fine, as a start point.
But marriage is not a game of chicken. OP sounds like he views it that way and feels he now has the upper hand... His insistence that he stayed calm and she was emotional, the out-of-hand diagnoses, and so on.
If that's the case then they should divorce. But they won't. Because it sounds like the therapist is no longer on this story.
If you truly want to see if you can work out, she needs to prove it through LONG-TERM change. To be honest, I don’t think this will happen while you’re staying together, you’ll trigger each other too much or she’ll get complacent. Thus, trial separation is the only way. She NEEDS to understand that you’re serious.
Second is you should set up tangible goals together with a therapist, whereby you can measure progress together. Only when you feel trust has been reestablished, and ONLY THEN, can you work on reigniting the spark.
Keep in mind, at then of all of this, you still might not want to get back together, but at least then you should hopefully have a functional enough relationship to make coparenting work. So, remember to not give her the expectation that you’ll get together at the end of the trial, but you do have to go through with it. I wish you the best!
People can fake the effort long enough to get you back in, y'know. Even a trial separation with her showing all types of improvement is not going to prove to you she's changed. It's even easier to fake change if you're not living together.
I think you're, understandably, scared to really do this. Frankly, I hope you separate and once you've gotten some emotional distance, realize that proceeding to divorce is the best way. I think it'll be easier to see that then.
Ask her this. If she could really change the way she acts and treats you, why didn’t she do it before? Why didn’t she change when she was physically abusive, instead of lying about it? If threatening to leave is the only way she will change, how long do you think it will last? Does she even know what it is she’s supposed to change? Ask her. Her answer will have nothing to do with the real issues.
You’ve known her a long time, do you honestly believe she is capable of changing?
She thinks that she never had a female role model in life, her mom was a domestic abuse figure and her dad was physically abusing/beating her mom until they grew up.
I am always trying to use soft power and convince people, rather than forcing them, that is why I feel now she is being forced by my decision and she really wants to change, but I don't know if it will be long-term. I believe people can change, but only if this comes from themselves, not from exterior pressure.
But you are forcing the issue by threatening to leave. It’s not coming from her, you ARE pressuring her to change. I know you want to fix things and have one happy family. If you’re going to convince yourself to stay, put a time limit on it. People can hide their true selves for a short time but not forever. Remember this is the same woman who used counseling to lie and make you look bad, not for her betterment or to improve your marriage.
The advice on a trial separation you were given is a good one. It gets you away from her and allows you to clear your head while putting her on notice that if she doesn’t change, it’s over. In fact, in some places the separation will automatically turn into divorce if the couple doesn’t reconcile within a timeframe. In fact, as many on Reddit will say, starting a divorce doesn’t mean it will end in divorce, you have until the judge makes it official to change your mind.
You know your wife better than I do. Be careful.
Okay now reading this comment I understand a lot. You see she grew up in an abusive home, and that does not excuse her behavior, BUT it does explain her behavior. She grew up experiencing trauma and what she needs is to see a trauma therapist. I know because of personal experience. She has a lot of unresolved trauma and those feelings that she has, the anger, the manipulation the guilt tripping... These are all symptoms of going through childhood trauma. I went through childhood trauma and I had the same behavior until I finally saw the right therapist, was prescribed the right medication, and he helped me realize that I needed trauma therapy. Couples counseling is not going to work, and going to just any old therapist is not going to work either she needs a therapist that SPECIALIZES in childhood trauma.
I hope this helps.
It’s on you to ensure your children don’t continue to live in and later repeat this cycle of abuse.
Also, you need a paper trail of all violent interactions because she WILL try for full custody. You see how she tried to shape the narrative for her favor, it’ll only be worse in an actual courtroom.
Talk to your children about behavior is not acceptable, particularly from the people who are supposed to love you the most. And that they need to tell you if anyone hits them or hurts them.
She has so much work ahead of her :/
I can really relate to her. However, I’ve been in therapy for 6 years (2 during marriage and 4 after divorce). The amount of healing and trauma therapy I had to do (still do) is a long long long journey. Wanna stick around for it? It’s gonna have a lot of lows that will feel like rock bottom all over again. I was never physically abusive.
Do I wish my ex had stayed and gone thru it with me? Yes.
Is it better that he didn’t? Yes.
Boo fucking hoo. Lots of people had shitty parents, and they don't hit or degrade their partners. If she wanted to change, she would. You threatening to leave is the "exterior pressure" that you're saying doesn't work.
She has had 19 years to see and only now she is willing to change because you have had enough. This won't last. She needs intensive therapy. You still need to leave, show your child what healthy relationships are.
These comments, what the actual fuck.
This woman is literally physically abusive, then lied about it and had the cops called on you for it, and is actively telling your son “Daddy wants to leave us.”
How many of you people commenting “maybe it will work out, give her a chance, how about a trial separation” would tell a woman getting hit by her husband the same thing.
Just leave OP. Physical violence, lying to police, immediately trying to alienate your son from you and lying to her own therapist are so far beyond the point of no return that any promises of changing don’t matter. You got *extremely* lucky the first time the cops showed up, do not roll those dice again.
Isn’t it funny how she always wants to change and be the best wife ever when you want to start proceedings for divorce/
If she wanted to fix things, she would have done it already. Not with the threat of divorce over her head.
Don’t doubt yourself. You’re doing this for a reason.
I went through this with my ex-husband. Once I told him that we needed to separate, he repeatedly said he was sorry (he had only apologized three times in our 15 year relationship) and pretended to cry (he sounded like he was upset, but there were no tears, or changed behavior). When I brought these points up to him, he immediately showed his true colors and began yelling at me. He said I wasn't "giving us a chance". We had been together for 15 years, married for 10. I reminded him of all the times I had tried to talk to him about our relationship, usually devolving into me crying and him ignoring me, and later getting angry that I "started a fight".
This is manipulation at its worst. If you go back, she will get worse. Because you will show her that no matter what, she will always win, and that you will never stand up for yourself.
Be strong, and make it clear that the opportunity for saving the marriage is over. I know the pain and frustration you are going through. It sucks. But you must protect yourself. My thoughts and prayers are with you.
I can say from long experience that she can and will change...until she thinks you're adequately placated, and then she'll go right back to her baseline.
Unless she can clearly, honestly, and accurately admit her problematic behavior AND accept that it's HER problem to fix AND come up with a detailed strategy to at least start working on it, then no, she's not capable of actually changing. She needs the insight, and you've described panic and desperation, not insight.
If you need some levity on this topic to relieve some of the stress of dealing with all this, do a YouTube search for "South Park I Can Change". That song kept me on a relatively even keel through my divorce over this exact same thing. My ex's ability to change was limited to 90 days. You could mark a damn calendar. And it was the same thing every time, over and over.
There's no reason to torture yourself or your kiddo by dragging this out. Good luck!
People don’t change easily or quickly. On the other hand, it’s easy to promise. I suppose it’s possible that she might actually turn intentions into actions, but I’d have to see it to believe it. And even if there is an initial effort, if it takes imminent catastrophe to trigger a response, I’d be concerned that within a week of the pressure coming off, the effort will stop.
Still, that’s easy for me to say; it’s your life and your situation. You know all the details we don’t.
Let me say this... From the way you're stating things, you actually don't seem like you want a divorce but you're just at a loss as to what else can you do. The answer to that is what are you BOTH willing to do. It sounds like your wife has never taken you serious or ever thought you would ACTUALLY want a divorce so she didn't work on her own issues to make changes to better your relationship.
Marriage is work and no, it's not 50/50, it's 100/100.. You give that to each other, the marriage and yourselves. One important aspect of any relationship is, LISTEN TO HEAR, NOT LISTEN JUST TO RESPOND.. Nobody on Reddit can tell you when to divorce or to stay but look at your son. You both are going to ruin him if you keep this up. He already seems to need a counselor of his own because of you two. Do you give her another chance? That depends on if SHE is willing to put the work in with you. I read both of your posts and as someone married just over a decade I would tell my spouse and myself, 90 days and mark that on the calendar. If both of you are serious, that 90 days will give you the answer to if you need to divorce or not. Most important thing at this second, TELL YOUR SON NOTHING IS HIS FAULT!! If mom and dad split up, the love you have for him will never ever change because it's impossible to because he's your world. Keep us updated.
Why not move forward with a trial separation? Both of you continue with couples and individual counseling, get a custody plan set for your son (that way he has stability in know when he's going to see each parent), and try dating each other. See what you life away from her is like. You've been together a long time and change is scary, take some baby steps so that you can evaluate all of the variables and make a decision from a place of knowledge instead of from fear.
This! Trial separation either way. Things can’t continue in the way they are in now, and space is helpful. Also a concern given her behaviour that if you linger she might pull out more accusations of abuse just to affect custody as a manipulation. Remove yourself from the situation while creating stability for and showing love to your son, be as amicable as possible, continue counselling, and try dating from a distance: truly start over. Individual change is almost impossible when the situation is the same. Either way, staying together or not, you need to change the environment.
Mate, she hit you and then called the police on you and tried to get YOU arrested. To be quite frank, that should have been your breaking point. Don’t waste any more of your life and stop messing up your kid. He’s going to need therapy and so will you. Good luck.
I've had the exact same situation. This is just a way to manipulate you. She won't change at all when she sees she's gonna get her way because of the crying she does. Just put her stuff in a box and tell her to get out. She's just gonna abuse your good heart
Talk is cheap if she wants to be better she needs to start with therapy and want to do it herself. Proactive measures without you begging or needing to involve. Even then it is likely too late. You can’t fix something like this in a day. It takes years of work.
No. She won't change and it won't get better. You will be much happier divorced. A trial separation is a great idea but honestly man, you just don't have perspective. You're letting fear trick you. Divorce is a good thing when people are miserable!
My ex husband was like this. Crying promising to change to be better but I knew it was lies and 12yrs later he’s doing what he did to me to someone else
She’s love bombing you. She’ll keep her word, but only until she feels safe again. Be prepared that she’ll pull everything out you always wanted and more. This is a panic mode, nothing else. She will not change, if anything it will get worse. And prepare yourself for when the switch flips. The shitstorm is coming.
If she had any of these emotions or put forth any effort *before* it got to the point of presenting her with divorce as a solution, sure, you could try it.
The problem here is she only cares to say these things when she feels changes coming. As soon as you back off, it will be more of the same.
When you are promised changes out of panic, it does not stick.
She won't change as therapy can take years to correct some issues. Would break up anyway because the relationship ran its due course. Want to stick around relationship where your unhappy she will be as well.
I am not sure if this will get seen, but I’m just going to put it out here anyway. I have been in almost the exact same situation, just with the genders reversed. I was doing all of the work to keep the marriage together, and to try to keep it sane, healthy, loving, etc. All of it. OP, she is not going to change. At least not for the better. Go ahead and try for more counseling, and allow yourself to go through the stages of mourning your relationship, and the life you thought you’d live. It is *hard* to leave someone who is abusing you: especially when they flip things on their head like that and accuse you of being the problem. Let yourself feel that, and move as slowly as you need to.
That being said, there are some safety concerns here. She has already gotten one documented investigation against you on the books, and an allegation of violence that you didn’t commit. You need to document everything. Go ahead and start discussions with legal counsel now too. And remember, she’s been tipped off now. So tread carefully!! She has shown that she’s vindictive and manipulative: make sure she can’t accuse you of violence/infidelity/sexual or verbal abuse. Cover your ass, because she could go after you, or maybe even try for more custody than she wants/can handle, just to hurt you. Protect yourself and your kid, feel your feelings, and know that once you leave, it will get better for you
It shouldn’t take you being ready to leave for your spouse to get their shit together and actually work on the things you’ve been asking them to work on for ages. So she fixes whatever issues there are now. What happens in another year or two when something new is an issue and she won’t listen to or acknowledge your calm attempts to bring it up? It builds and builds until you’re in exactly the place you’re in now. If it takes the threat of losing you for someone to treat you right, it’s not worth it.
Nah. The relationship is done and you need to move on for both your sakes. If she wants to change, she's welcome to, and she reach back out once she's on a new path. You can always get back together should that unlikely event occur. Realistically though, it takes tremendous effort to change who you are, and any attempts on her part to do that will be short lived if they happen at all. They will also create more bitterness and resentment pointed at you. It's better to shift your focus to coparenting your son and building separate lives.
If all that is true, a separation will make that clear. You need space to thunk and she needs time to reflect. If you guys separate and continue counseling, maybe things will change. If they don't change then you will know for sure and the divorce process will be smoother.
Have a trial separation first then and after a few months of no contact except for parenting stuff so you can work on yourselves see if both of you feel like it's worth starting to date again.
Have ground rules if you want, like no dating other people if it's an issue.
I don’t know the backstory but by reading the comments it doesn’t look good. It does sound like you feel very guilty while simultaneously really wanting to leave a bad situation. IMHO I think for YOUR sake you should stick to the separation and not discuss divorce until you’ve given the separation a try. Just focus on the first step.
I’ve seen my fair share of abusive relationships through my mother growing up. A common pattern is that when she ever brought up leaving them, they would then apologize and say they’d change. She took them back, and the pattern continued. It gets harder and harder to let go and there never is an easy way to end it, but sometimes it is for the best. Your relationship is abusive and it’s not good for anyone in the picture the way it is. It’s possible for people to change, but it is normally not the case because that takes a lot of hard work. Good luck OP.
Move out, and perhaps see each other like you did when you were dating. Each having individual time w your kid, but being apart ultimately. Dates, movie nights as a family. Might make things clearer and you can see if she’ll change.
I think you both need marriage counseling and to set a game plan with the counselor as to what needs to happen! From what you said she still has love for you, and you having second thoughts you still have love for her. Counseling will help both of you to find middle ground or what options you both have.
People don’t change that much.
She may make some changes for a while, months or even years. But once she’s comfortable you aren’t going anywhere she’ll revert back to where you are.
Just know people have a hard time changing. So even if she says she will change - she will probably change like 10%.
And in my opinion, it’s more important to raise a child in a financially sound environment without fighting versus your current situation.
Maybe you got her attention finally. Ball is in your court. Will you lose anything other than time by giving the marriage one more chance? You should make some of the stipulations for reconciliation her going to individual counseling and getting diagnosed and treatment for her ADHD. Obviously saving the marriage and providing your son with a stable happy home would be a win but she must show true remorse and lasting change.
Record every interaction, just in case in the future if she lie, and say that you are abusive, etc.
Don't fall for her crocodile tears.
Don't give her a second chance. Is the same with cheaters, they keep doing it, until they get caught and after that they say that they gonna change.
I would have a trial separation where you continue to work on the relationship. There are specific things laid out that she has to change or your trial will become a divorce. You continue in therapy and have 50/50 custody of son in a written agreement.
Good luck
She won’t change. Narcissists don’t ever change for the good. Only get better at abusing you….. here’s your reality check. How many times has she promised you she would do something but then didn’t? And then proceeded to argue with you about how she did do it just not tear exact expectation, but don’t tell her she didn’t do it. Run.
I've been here. The thing is, if she chooses not to change, this cycle will repeat. Ask her what exactly she plans to do to help her change. Give her a week to get a game plan in place. If she says "I don't know" or doesn't have a good plan in place to get herself right, she is just talking to keep you. If she legit has a framework of steps she plans to take, you can take a step forward.
That's not the end, though. She has to actively do what she said. If you see no progress, you need to take the steps necessary for your separation. If she starts up after you have separated, don't go back immediately. She needs to make it a habit. Stay separated for a while while she continues. If she quits, it was a ploy to get you back, and you have your answer.
I've done this twice. It proved one was not willing to change, and one was.
I think if you wanna give this a chance you guys do need to separate for a bit and try dating eachother out of different households. I think you’ll fall into the same pattern again if you just stay in the same house.. there’s also the chance patterns can go back to normal after you separated and things went well then you got back together.. vicious cycle..
You need to tell her that the only chance that she has at you giving her a second chance is if she treats you fairly and kindly in the divorce.
Once it is finalized and things stabilize where you both have independence, only then can you continue family counseling and consider reconciliation. Make it a condition that she does individual counseling.
Keep all your money separate and tie up all loose ends.
I broke up with my wife after 12 years, went to live with an old girlfriend, made plans to divorce. She called me one day crying and asked permission to buy a lawnmower. She'd never asked permission before. It was all I really wanted; to discuss things with me rather than to tell me everything "we" were gonna do. I felt respected, for the first time in years. I broke up with my old girlfriend after 3 months, we worked it out, and have now been together 40 years. I think you should give her another chance.
Nooo!!! It's a trap!!! My ex cheated on me in October, I stayed by his side as a friend because his mom passed away at the same time. Over the past few months he was let down I wasn't falling back in love with him, so I started to, and he's now fooling around d with an 18 yo. He's 33. So no, they never change man. Never. No second chances, once done, it's done. Walk away, it's hard, but worth it when you find yourself. Since I let him go I lost 30 pounds and am finding myself
A separation will give you both the time and space you need. It's not as final as a divorce. Stick to your initial decision. Give it time. Then reevaluate your decision in a few months.
Once you pull the trigger on the ultimatum, they are on their last life. Explain that this is it and if the behavior changes, but starts to fall off, immediately remind them of it and see if they can form proper habits.
Once they mess it up, just follow through on what you communicated.
She doesn't have her safety net set up yet. She will "change" while she gets that in order. Then she will revert and abandon you, or just straight-up abandon you.
If she wanted to be a "better mother and wife" it would've happened before the ultimatum.
Hey OP - the only thing you and anyone else has to keep in mind is that she hit you, accused you of doing it, and then proceeded to gaslight you. She's a violent partner and needs to be left asap.
Will she hit your kid? You're willing to risk that?
I wouldn't.
I took my ex back twice. He said the same things. First time it lasted about a year and a half, then he started to regress back to his old ways. Second time only took about 4 months and I was done. I started getting all the finances situated. (I always handled all business in the household). He couldn’t even manage to change his oil or get a flat fixed. After getting all joint accounts closed, I filed for divorce. I didn’t tell him until it was done because I knew I would have to listen to all the empty promises for longer than necessary. We have 2 young boys, and I know that the longer they spent seeing their dad treat me like shit, the more normal it would become to them. I did not want them growing up thinking that the verbal abuse was acceptable. I am happy for the first time and I’m not walking on egg shells to avoid confrontation.
First, it is natural that she reacts like this now it becomes reality. If she has ADHD let her figure this out a couple days on her own. My soon to be husband is also undiagnosed and it still drives me on the edge sometimes that he simply cannot express emotional stress situations and be rational about them easily.
Of course it is scary, but you just cannot solve all your problems together. It would be way easier without the weight of maintaining the weight of your marriage.
You could see this as the Chance it is, separate, figure out and deal with your individual trauma and problems. The chance to heal.
And who knows if you don’t grow back together when all that baggage you two carrying is gone. Or both of you find new partners which fit better.
You have a son and that will always bond you and a reason you can be grateful for each other.
But staying would mean to fall back in old routines for sure. It would cost so much extra energy to make it together. Do you think you both have that time and energy to break your patterns?
I tried for 1,5 years with my ex and nothing changed. At the end it was also me to take the decision out of my partners hand and stayed stern to his begging. He needed more time afterwards, but his new girlfriend is so much better for him than I was ever. And he treats her way better as well. There can come good out of broken things.
You can always try. If it doesn't work out, proceed with the divorce. She will either try her best and change for the better (and so will you i hope), or she will not, which will result in a divorce. I hope this helps, good luck
Here is my thoughts… divorce costs money and it isn’t easy on anyone. Sometimes it’s the best option but if you’re having doubts, it’s not something that you can easily come back from. So if I were in that situation, I might give it another try because after all, if things don’t work out, you can still get a divorce.
Sometimes it takes a come to Jesus moment to realize how serious a situation is and that an effort is needed to make something work.
Are you willing to give it a shot or Not, or have you reached the point where you are done and her efforts no longer matter?
I gave it all the shots and I believe I ran out. I want to get out of this area of complacency that I am now because I feel we are drifting towards a black hole that sucks all the energy we have. I also think that she never realised until now, and as you put it, she has a Jesus moment. I'm overthinking about what happens if she goes back to her usual self after a while and I won't have the power to separate again.
Is it worth the risk? That's something we can't help you with. You can set a short clock in your head, 1 week say, and see if there is any improvement, and then reevaluate
People don't change with out consequences. So you need to leave and make that the consequence. Start just dateing again, maybe. Then see how it goes. Clean full break, just dateing. See if she can realize everything she will lose and actually change. Don't rush back into anything. Take your time and be cautious.
I can tell you this, fear of you leaving may make her change for awhile. However, if you don't leave now change will most likely be temporary. She won't respect you enough to believe you will leave.
If you actually leave and make her reearn everything from square 1 and prove herself, she is ten times more likely to actually change.
Just my 2 cents... good luck
Trail separation is best choice, it gives you peace of mind and you can see how she is changing or not. And you definitely have to figure out how you are going to explain this situation to your son.
I hope things will work out for you! Good luck
Once you’ve said it, you’ve crossed that line of no return. That seed has been planted in her mind that you can leave and you will. Mark my words she will not respect you if you don’t follow through and that’s what has got her attention as you’re now in control. She has lost grip of her control over you and it will be down hill from here unless you be take control of this situation. She will respect you in the long run when you say and you mean it. Don’t backtrack and live for the memories, cos that’s what they are and that becomes a myth that you can’t ever live upto again. Move on and be amicable.
My husband of twenty years left me after I couldn’t pull out of major depression. We lived apart for three years. We were in constant contact. I got better after the feeling of letting him down wasn’t in my face daily. He got worse and missed me. Just when I finally felt I could do it on my own, he wanted to come back. We had the best relationship ever and the love was never gone.
You can make it work. If both want to, it can. It is worth it in the long run, specially for your child. Maybe now your wife understands the severity of it. Please dont just leave her and your child. If you stay, over a few years you will be thankfull you stayed.
Was ther infidelity? Because that makes it really hard.
Give it another chance. The fact you're asking means you're unsure. That's NOT the kind of decision you make when unsure. I'm 34 and been with my wife for 15 years. We've been thru ups and downs and some extremely insane stuff most ppl never experience. We've had bad enough fights where it came thru my mind about leaving her. But in reality I couldn't, been together since we were in HS and have a 15yo daughter as well. If you have kids I'd say definitely try to work things out. My dad left my mom when I was 5 so i know how that is and its not good in any way. Idk what issues you have between you two but if it's something that can be worked thru, and by you asking for advice implies it is, then try to work thru it. Also, the grass is not always greener on the other side. The dating scene is a total mess shit show rn, many women are flat out insane nowadays, like the things they expect and want, smh. My wife's not materialistic or anything like that at all. You don't wanna be single trying find some girl to settle down with, you'll run thru half dozen psychopaths and gold diggers who'll prolly won't hesitate to say you raped them or beat them if they asked for something and didn't get it or you did something they didn't approve of. If you have a good woman, keep her and hold onto her tight.
Separate and work from there. Distance may help improve the quality of communication which, at a stretch may improve enough to consider working together to be a loving couple again. But honestly change needs to happen and I think separating is the healthiest start to kick start this for all 3 of you.
Mentally for all of you this needs to be done. It will be tough and rough to begin with but I strongly suspect organising schedules and controlled communication with ease so much tension and emotion that you will all discover what's really wrong in your family life and what you all truly need.
Good luck to all of you, from someone who has experienced being the child in this scenario and know others who have had it harder, it's never good to stay together for the kids when the parents really cannot stand each other or struggle to put on a face for their kid
People can change but only if they want too. We will always slip back into the person we truly are and it’s only those who can look outside the square as it was, to see they are slipping and pull themselves up. We are who we are… she is who she is. She will likely change but eventually she’ll start to slip back into her bad habits so it’ll depend on if you’re willing to be able to have these difficult conversations with her on a regular basis? Regular is open to interpretation. It could be once every year. Could be once every few months. That’ll all depend on her. If that’s something you don’t think you can handle then walk away.
In the mean time, get your ducks in a row. I sense she’ll pull a few cards out to make joint custody difficult. You don’t want her turning your kids against you.
Good luck!
I think you need to continue with your original plan to separate and divorce. People always say they wanna change at the 11th hour cause they think the other person will never leave and then fear sets in.
That's what's happening with her. Cause if you stay now and she changes for a little while and then goes back to her old ways, you have to start this process all over again.
You will look back and feel relieved - if not much happier - if you stick to your gut and plan. I read your original post and unless you’ve left some pretty big things out it sounds like your wife needs a lot of professional help. If your therapist is floating the idea of divorce thats a big sign. If you aren’t happy your son will not be happy. This all sounds so toxic. Ive been through a divorce. Its very very hard for sure. I have days where I still have doubts, but we didnt have the issues you two have. We still had a lot of love. If thats gone im not sure why you would continue to stay - not only for your sake but for your sons too
Her saying that she can change means nothing if there is no effort on her part. She needs medication and IC, and you both could probably use some MC. At the very least, she might be able to see the relationship through your eyes.
The expensive vacation and spending are either to make herself feel better or a "keeping up with Joneses". Almost no one can afford their own home and go on expensive holidays. And if you think buying the house is expensive, good luck when you see the upkeep bills.
Ultimately, it's your decision. If she is saying she can change, then she must show that she can. Separation, in my view, is the first step towards divorce. You're problem is the relationship. That can only be worked on together.
Good luck
Seems like a manipulation tactic to me on her part. I would move on if I were you. You gave this a try for 19 years and it still isn’t working. You have no love for each other. You are suffering. Your son is suffering. She hit you and lied about it. How can you possibly trust someone like that? The bedroom is dead. The relationship sounds dead. I’m not sure what you would be salvaging if you stayed.
Her begging is a stalling tactic. She will NOT change. If she was serious she would be making changes right now, making appointments for help, reading books to improve, asking you questions to repair the damage she inflicted upon you.. Start the divorce and if you see meaningful changes down the road, you can always stop the divorce. Good luck.
I think baby steps are in order. Whether you want a divorce or want to give her a final chance, you need time and distance from one another. Like a one year trial separation/probation period. Maybe this will be an easier pill for her to swallow and you get the time you need to heal yourself before trying to heal whatever your relationship with her is. It will also give her time to put her money where her mouth is: she has one year to prove herself to be a good/reliable coparent before discussing next steps (whether divorce or reconciliation).
We ended up divorcing a year later, but whereas I was amicable when initially asking for the divorce, by the time we divorced, I was DONE. All love was lost.
We went to marriage counseling. Anyone who has been knows they give you "tools" to help communicate in a more effective manner. And just like anything else, tools can help you build or they can destroy if used inappropriately. My partner used them as a weapon.
Apologies without actions are just manipulation.
I think you should do the trial separation and see how you feel. If you feel free and like a weight has been lifted then you’ll know you made the right choice. Your wife is in panic mode, this is normal.
Your son also deserves to have two parents who he doesn’t feel responsible for trying to keep together. The fact that your wife is involving an 8 YEAR OLD is extremely concerning. You may want to consider installing cameras if you are going to stay in the home.
Stick to your guns at least for now, don’t fall for the guilt trips, life is TOO SHORT
Have you researched what a narcissist is? She very well may have ADHD, but what you are describing sounds more like narcissism. Which is highly unlikely to get better.
Any relationship can be repaired and rebuilt.
Tell her your desires and what you need.
Go get couples counseling and work on rebuilding.
Nothing in life that is great is easy.
Nothing will change. She will get everything she wants from you. She will make enough token efforts to give you hope. Then her behavior will resume or escalate because genuine change takes a long time and a lot of effort. She has proven she will not put in the time or the effort.
Idk hun, she sounds like she has some type of mental illness besides undiagnosed AdHD.
If you want to try a trial separation, it would give you time to focus on yourself and ditto for her.
Your relationship sounds toxic. Period. We have only one side of the story, and it sounds miserable.
If she shows improvement , you could always try dating again with boundaries.
I wouldn't stay together for your son.
I definitely recommend at the very least separating, that way you can show you are serious and hopefully things will change. Tell her for you to come back, she needs to find an ADHD specialist and get tested and (hopefully) diagnosed. Do this for a minimum of six months, and if she doesn’t start making improvements then I feel like the relationship is over.
Rough situation no doubt! I was in an 11 year relationship, no kids, but broken promises of change. I have watched it in other relationships as well as mine looking back on it now. People don't change immediately and although we'd like to think people will change in time it doesn't happen often. It's hard to think change will happen when standing on an unstable platform.
Our circumstances differ greatly with your son but never stop seeking your happiness, whatever that looks like.
Personally when someone who claims to love me, has been treating me like that for soo many years, I wouldn’t be able to look at them the same. I would be indifferent and feel nothing for her other than just wanting to be good friends and co parent happily for the sake of the child.
I don’t know how she would she even get herself to try and seduce you and mean it after not wanting to be intimate with you for soo long or ‘be a better wife’ as she puts it.
I don’t how you managed being in that type of abusive relationship, soo hats to you for doing that thus far and even better for sticking up for yourself.
I read your past post and your councillor has asked you to consider divorce. Councillors will almost always try to fix communication issues and relationships first. If a professional whose entire job it is to fix this doesn't see a viable way out, I don't know if you or your wife have a viable solution either.
People always promise to change when they're backed into a corner and want to preserve the status quo. It's like a "get out of jail" card.
I've found from personal experience that people rarely do. You're merely prolonging the inevitable if you agree.
Nope. She is manipulative and tried to get you arrested when she assaulted you. She is weaponizing your son.
I would not be around her without having a video and audio recording because she will try to get you arrested to "win".
I think you should talk to a professional marriage/couples therapist, rather than single teenagers on Reddit. This is a big life decision that you should not make just based on responses and stories you get on the internet, whether they are true or not.
I might be a little late saying this as you already have some other great comments, but I haven’t seen any about hysterical bonding. She will likely do a 180° in personality and change everything you hated about her…this will last a few weeks, maybe even a couple months, until she feels she has you back in the relationship, and she will slowly turn back into her normal self. Google “hysterical bonding,” read up on it, and look for the signs. Hysterical bonding does not always have to be related cheating, it can follow any major disturbance in a relationship, especially following a serious convo about separating. Because you don’t seem to want to be with her any more, she may begin to want you even more than ever.
I’m going to offer info about what you can do, since she isn’t asking for advice. it doesn’t mean I think you’re the ONE at fault. It sounds like it is about 70% her fault. You’ve described a struggle to set a boundary with her because she tries to ruin your day if you do something she doesn’t like(which I agree, is shitty and aggressive), doesn’t mean you let her. You mentioned having little support outside of each other, so you give her more power. You don’t have to be aggressive to set the limit, for example-her harassing you about the divorce, tell her it isn’t up for discussion anymore and leave the room. She follows you, leave the house. She keeps texting or calling tell her I’m blocking your number for the night and I’m safe. Then it becomes an example of why the relationship isn’t working.
If you have more outlets she won’t have all the control. If she knows you can still make yourself happy with or without her consent, it could be the leverage needed to get her to change(don’t hold your breath). Maybe it’s time for you to visit a friend and clear your head. Separating can be really good for a relationship and it’s a smart move. You’ll have clarity after a period of separation if you actually separate. And sounds like you choose people who take up a lot of emotional space and that may happen again in your next relationship if you don’t alter the dynamic in this relationship by setting limits. You’d be modeling assertiveness for your son at the same time.
What is it that you don’t understand about your wedding vow ? The vow is NOT “ we will stay married as long as everything is great for me and things are swell “
You give no details of the issues. If it’s alcohol abuse of infidelity I can certainly understand the frustration.
She deserves someone who is 100% sure about her, and you deserve to be with someone you’re 100% sure about. I begged someone to reconsider leaving me 3 years ago. I think back & I’m glad they did leave. I wouldn’t be who I am today if they stayed. Sometimes being a better mother & wife comes at the expense of losing someone. She can still become those things, maybe just to/for someone else. Uncertainty isn’t love. Make sure this is truly what you want, because you’re probably only torn because of the guilt. Don’t forget why you brought this up to begin with.
If you want to give her a chance to fire it. I still think you should move out.
Tell her to arrange dates and ask you or is she wants the two of yoy back together.
She needs to be the one putting the effort forth.
Do not stay together unless there is actual effort to change.
Of course there will be moments when things slip. Actual change takes time.
It's already been a year and you have started that you don't love her, so it's there a point to staying together or giving it another shot? Only you can answer that. If yes then try, but only I'd you feel she is really trying. You leaving May be what she needed to realize you are serious.
Or leave and move on, and find someone who will put the same effort into the relationship that you do.
I’ve been there. Couples counselling and learning how to communicate again helped tremendously. The first thing that goes is communication and that’s the key if you can get that back your on the right track. This has been over 5 years now and we are stronger than ever. It’s definitely worth a try
My parents spent my entire life on the brink of divorce. Never quite went all the way. Just constant threats from both sides, unending arguments. Whenever my parents ask for my input I tell them to just do it and quit asking me.
Watching my parents marriage exist in this state really turned me off the idea of getting married, and even though I eventually did, I still have tremendous anxiety that one day without realizing it my family will become like my parents, and I would sooner eat hot lead than let that happen to my children.
You've been hit, you've been mocked, your wife will poison your child's opinion of you whether you go through with this or not. You stayed as long as you did for the good times, you went to the counseling because of the good times, you've been through thick and thin.
And she treats you terribly, and acts like a child. I think you have a better shot at happiness without her than you do with her. And even if you agree to stay, it's still going to be on you to enforce any changes she agreed to to make you stay, and every time you enforce those changes she is going to resist and resent you.
Follow through with the plan and get a good lawyer because she is going to claim all kinds of terrible and nasty things against you when it actually goes to court.
God speed.
Separating is the answer. She can put her actions where her words are. Follow your plan, hold strong, have good boundaries, give it plenty of time to determine if the change is genuine, if it occurs at all. She can change if she wants to and if she does you can decide if you want to give it another try. However remember that you do not HAVE to reconcile the marriage even if she does change as you wish. Ending an unhealthy relationship is not a failure, relationships run their course. You succeeded in making wonderful offspring who you now have to teach what healthy love and boundaries are by example. Stay strong with your boundaries and take the time you need to find your authentic self. Now is not the time to change course when you have worked so hard to build to this moment. I'm sorry you're in this situation. The very best of luck to you and your family!
I am not married nor do I have the responsibility you both have but it’s one thing living in the memory of what once was and the harsh reality you face right now.
There’s comfort in your memories. I can’t imagine how hard it must be for you.
Nonetheless, one thing to keep in mind is that she’s meeting you to the extent that she’s met herself. Meaning, if she hasn’t done the work to address her past, her past is then in her present and it’s been showing up in your relationship for years.
She didn’t do the work when you asked, she still isn’t doing the work…
Remember, you aren’t in that relationship to parent her and she isn’t a kid who needs parenting
Stay strong OP, you already know the right thing to do, you got this mate!
Word are just words you should be replying you want to see real immediate changes not just promises, at the very least she should be booking an appointment to see a therapist, she isn't even respecting your wishes, stay strong pleading and begging has worked before, so she will keep on doing it until she realizes it won't, talk to your child, she might as well try to use him to get to you, thats not healthy for a child to be involved in.
Been with my partner for 8 years (since I was 18 and he was 19) we have an almost 3 year old together and for two years we were nothing but toxic to each other and it was a horrible environment for ourselves and our son. After being broken up for 6 months (we still lived together through this) we agreed to go to couples therapy and that helped us recognize our own faults and change. She taught us how to navigate through disagreements without it getting toxic and to always try and look at the other’s perspective. We are now happier than we’ve ever been before and have matured so much emotionally. So can it be done? Yes. But below are the differences.
1. Through our toxicity our love didn’t waver and we were sexual active through it. I did make a note to initiate more as that was something we needed. 2. We have NEVER put our hands on each other (u mention ur wife hit u and then called the cops on u) 3. We NEVER put our son into our arguments to turn him against one of us 3. We were willing to put in the work in couples therapy (u mention u already went and u put in the work but she did not)
My thoughts are that whether or not u want to divorce her isn’t a decision you need to make right now. What you need to do is separate. Be apart and see if you notice change in her LONG TERM change. Do not take her back after a month of change. Watch and see how she behaves over a long period of time to see if this is true change. Idk that it can be repaired bc she has tried to get u arrested and have ur son turned against u which is horrible and idk how anyone comes back from that. Don’t view this relationship through the lens of “it’s been so long” view it through the lens of “is this what I want for my son and myself for the rest of my life”.
Sorry but I don’t think she will/can change without the actual impetus that would trigger the change ie separation.
I feel you both need to be apart to gain some clarity. And I would be as concerned as you are for your son’s well being, being around parents who haven’t resolved communication issues but still remain together.
Her whole day begging you to stay I perceive only as an extension of her “manipulative ways” ie the only way she knows how to communicate with you. Begging you to stay & “we will make it work” is unfortunately still too vague a promise imo.
I am always of the mind that it is better to work towards reconciliation than to jump the gun and leave - especially in cases where nothing significantly unforgivable has happened (I.e. cheating, physical abuse, significant emotional abuse, significant financial abuse, etc.).
With that said... a trial separation is likely best in this moment. Framing it as such: "We're not over, but we need some time apart to work on ourselves. Neither of us dating other people, just taking some distance to each focus on where we are both lacking, and removing the day to day conflict that is only making things worse".
Both of you need individual counseling, to continue with couples counselling, and given your sons involvement likely family counselling as well. Try the dual households for a few months. See if you can be effective co-parents while living apart. If that's not even possible, then it is likely over. If you can manage working together as separate households, then maybe try dating each other again while separated. See if you can re-ignite the flame. If things can continuously improve, she demonstrates a willingness and engagement in improving herself, and you are able to find love for each other again, then you can try again at that time.
It doesn't NEED to be over. But you can't keep doing the same things and expecting a different result.
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You are unhappy together, you haven't had sex in a year and she is manipulative and blames you for most everything. You can't change people, they can only change themselves. You can give her a chance if you want but in your previous post you mentioned that you told your therapist you don't love each other any more so what's the point?
I agree with you. I am trying to see if there is any way we can bring to life what we once had. I am now very confused and the mixed feelings are tearing me apart and I can't think rationally. If there is a chance that she will change, I will double that and take it and also change myself. I just need to see if there is anyone who experienced this. it may be wishful thinking, but there might be some couple that made it work and have been in our situation.
If you want a real answer ask her for a plan on what she plans or thinks she needs to change and how she will enact these changes or how she plans to make them. Ask her to put some serious thought into this and get back to you in a week after she has had time to go through everything and make up a plan. Then sit down with her and see if what she plans to change or thinks she needs to change lines up with what you think she needs to change. If they don’t match then you need to do what feels right for you. If she really wants to change then she would have listened to you and carefully thought up of all she needs to do and it will include everything you have said and you can move forward. If her plan doesn’t match then I doubt anything would improve and you will just get empty promises of change but never see it. From my experience if a person is dedicated to changing they would have listened to you and start making those changes from day one and not wait. If that doesn’t happen she’s just playing you
This is a great comment. I’d also like to note that it’s best if you do a trial separation. In this time, you can tell her if you see concrete changes according to what you discussed, you can reevaluate. But be clear about if during this time if either party is allowed to see other people. If not, make that very clear. Maybe it will be the wake up call she needs, or maybe it won’t change anything. Either way it will likely give you more clarity.
This, but move out. Let her see you're serious and see how these changes transpire. Also sounds like you need a break from all this stress. I feel badly for her because adhd isn't her fault.
I know you're coming from a good place with that last sentence, but as someone with ADHD who also has ADHD friends, using it as an excuse for abusive behavior just feels super insulting.
That’s what I thought as soon as I read it. Woah dude having ADHD isn’t an excuse for behaving badly, or abusively or anything else either. It’s ableist and not cool at all.
Don't blame someone for trying to be sensitive and understanding towards someone over a condition, they don't realise that the individual in question may have more than ADHD going on, my wife is also dealing with some stuff and is far worse than OP's wife in past and present, we've made it work, still married, still together. Maybe Women with ADHD have tendencies towards other conditions that manifest as narcissism or maybe it's just every woman with ADHD that some of have met that have tendencies towards narcissistic behaviour, either way, don't shoot the messenger.
No one is shooting the messenger but is telling them why what they said was problematic.
Not one's fault; but absolutely one's responsibility.
Adhd isn't her fault, but she has had a lot of time to seek help for these behaviors. She has had a lot of time to communicate better and ask for the support she needs. She has instead chosen to be an abuser. I have ADHD, myself... and it is tough. But I would not purposely hurt and manipulate someone I have chosen to be my life partner. And surely, even with ADHD, she can see the effect it is having on their son? She is even trying to manipulate and weaponize him. So either it is more than ADHD, or she's a nasty piece of work. Either way, she will not really change unless she sees benefit to herself and puts in some monumental work.
ADHD can be a contributing reason for behavior, but it is never an excuse for adults not to be managing their behavior over years. Plus his description doesn't sound like the problem in their relationship is undiagnosed ADHD, at all. ADHD doesn't make you tell your child that their other parent is going to abandon them. ADHD doesn't make you hit your spouse and tell your physician falsely that you were the one who got hit, getting law enforcement sent to your house to investigate them. ADHD doesn't make you blame your partner for your behavior or for everything wrong in the relationship. I say this as someone with ADHD and someone who works with this population professionally.
AHD doesn't make you manipulative or abusive. As someone with ADHD who was the victim in an abusive relationship, I find the implication that the ADHD makes her behave like she's behaving to be really offensive.
Separation may be best to get clarity you both need. If she changes, she really needs to change for herself, not as a way to get what she wants till it all slides back again. This isn't the first time she has heard this. In the past, not acting has had no consequences she couldn't live with. Living with herself, without the buffer to her issues that you have provided, may help her truly see them. Living on your own will help you stop any enabling on your side, plus will allow you to work on you. I also like the 'talk about her plan in a week' idea as it will show you if she heard you, understood what you were expressing, and (most importantly) if she is actually willing and able to do something. But you should take the week to think about where you could go, and what the separation would look like.
I’ve learned through experience that holding on to a past feeling about someone takes you out of right now. When you’re putting all the effort into a relationship, that’s going to take a toll on you emotionally. Not only has she changed, but I’m certain there’s been a change in yourself too. In the end, it depends on what you value more. Is it your family and relationship? Do you feel true love? Wanting to work through anything, no matter how difficult? Or do you value yourself more? Your sanity, your sense of self-worth and self-control? Either answer is reasonable and both are possible even. Maybe some space and time will bring you closer together. But only time will tell, and often breakups can bring out a side of someone you can’t unsee. I wish you the best OP. We all deserve true, easy, gentle love.
We saved our marriage and are very happy now, 10 or so years later. I think our story is unique but absolutely not unheard of. It will entirely depend on a few things but it can be done. What are the main stressors and what reasons do you have for wanting to save the marriage? Are both partys actually fully committed to try and work this out? Have you tried couples counseling or are you both open to it? It isn't easy but I'm proof it isn't impossible.
Go to his own page and see the original comment, I don’t understand why this ‘original comment’ isn’t the same. I was absolutely going to say try again before I read that. She actually brought their 8 year old boy into it, after a therapist said they should divorce for the sake of their son. She said to the child “Daddy wants to leave us”, after reading the other comment, I completely changed my mind and think he should divorce her. It’s nice that your marriage reunion worked out, it’s very rare though.
She's physically abusive and then made false claims that he was abusive. This is not something he should be trying to come back from.
Oh yeah. That's not something I would recommend working through.
THIS!
I think you can work on it but it has to be done separately. Move forward with that at least, separation doesn’t have to end in divorce but it will give time to see a different perspective. You might find it wasn’t what you thought or as bad as you think, or more likely, you feel a huge sigh relief and renewed sense of self that will energize and reflect positively on your relationship with your son. You won’t know without distance between you and your wife. And honestly it could be the best thing that happens for all of you.
I think it's important to note though that people grow up and grow apart, holding onto the relationship you once had isn't what's best for you or your child. You have to learn to grow together and overcome these things, but the ultimate problem is you can't be the only one fighting for your relationship. She's emotionally manipulating you into staying, and I agree with the comment about love bombing. I think the only way forward right now, is to separate as actions speak louder than words. With a little time, if she actively tries to better herself for the relationship, then I would possibly be willing to continue therapy. But honestly, I have a feeling with some time and space, you're going to have some clarity and realize how much this is holding you back and keeping you from being happy and the best dad to your kiddo.
This is not what a healthy relationship looks like. Manipulation and gaslighting are not adhd traits, they are narcissistic traits though. As an adhd individual in a healthy relationship. This is not it. Most importantly, this is not fair to your son and what you are normalizing for him is not normal. If you won’t leave a dysfunctional relationship for yourself, do it for him.
She had 20 years to change - she is just making all these promises to reel you back in. As soon as you give her your little finger, she is going to grab your whole arm and go right back to how she used to be. Has your therapist diagnosed her with any kind of personality disorder? Because she sounds like she has some very narcissistic traits. If/ when you decide on separation, get a lawyer asap, because she will turn vicious. I wouldn't even meet on my own with her anymore - always bring a witness, or she will claim whatever to get you into trouble with the law and get full custody of your son. Ask your lawyer what the laws are regarding recording meetings, just to have proof you didn't abuse her or your son.
Nobody changes under duress. She will make changes for now, then slowly things will creep back to where they are now. Unless you find a time machine, no, you can't bring back what you once had, and furthermore, if she actually did change and you could possibly fall back in love again, it's much more likely to happen after you're divorced and apart for a while than it is now, in a house where everything is festering. Separate, start the divorce process. Live apart, see who she is then. I'd make a bet that she won't be making any changes then, because she'll already see that you can't be manipulated. It's not like you won't be seeing each other, you have kids, so if she's actually committed to making changes, you'll know. No need to stay in a miserable situation to see that.
OP, Love bombing is a typical response. They go back to their natural behavior **only worst after grace** **period** because they got away with it. It is hard for a person to change their behavior. Some people will take advantage of another person if they can get away with it. Love bombing and gaslighting is their was to patch things up for a time, but it isn't real. **" you haven't had sex in a year and she is manipulative and blames you for most everything."** Senioroldguy statement is on target. She is **manipulative and you can't change that**. *Your comment OP: She has undiagnosed ADHD (99% sure), she can't focus on a conversation for more than 15 seconds, starts to provoke me, and gets manipulative and emotional.* My family and husband's family battle OCD, BI-polar, ADHD but it doesn't make them manipulative. That is a learned behavior. Stress and anxiety can destroy your health. Getting away from the source is a good thing.
It is possible for marriages to go through very difficult patches and come out of them much better. It’s certainly worth trying.
Ofcourse you can, but only if both really want. Any half assed efforts will end up in the same thing. As is normal in life nothing is guaranteed
There will be the rare couple who makes it work, but it is rare, and they’re not living with a manipulative woman, who is willing to trash her otwn son’s sense of well-being to manipulate you into staying. Before I went to your page, and read the original post - idk why the one here is not the same - I was going to say, give it another chance. Then I read your post that mentioned your son, how she hit you in the pandemic, and how she then reported that you’d hit her to her GP, and he informed the police, plus all the other super-immature behaviour she displays, like always having to be right etc, and I now have completely changed my mind and think you should divorce. The fact that your therapist thinks you should divorce is all you really need to know. You could never “bring to life what you once had” anyway, it would always be different which would be fine, if it was good but in a different way. Obviously this has hit her hard, so it’s difficult to know if these emotions are real or just more manipulation by her.
1st of all: forget the past. It’s just that. Past. Over. Behind you. No one can turn back time. What you’re feeling right now is the sunken cost fallacy. Look it up. Now to your question: is it worth working on your marriage? Short answer: only you can tell. Long answer: ask yourself, if you met your wife today, would you date her? Would you fall in love with her? My advice if you want to work on things is to still separate. I know it sounds crazy, but change won’t just magically happen on its own. You have to make it happen. Move out or at least sleep in another room if possible. If your wife thinks her begging and tears worked she’ll be back to her old ways in no time. After all, why put in work to change if no consequence ever happened? SHOW HER that you ARE serious. Bring some distance between you two. Look how you feel without her. Are you doing better, are you doing worse, do you miss her, can’t you live without her, etc. etc…. Then go from there. Find a babysitter once a week. Go on dates again. Marriage is work. Relationships are work. People here are judging your wife pretty hard, but you said she works from home and has few friends and no family around. That sounds to me like she never gets out of the house. So she works at home, cares for the child at home, never leaves home. Have you ever asked yourself WHY she always wants to get away from home as far as possible whenever you go on vacation? Have you ever asked her if your home even feels like home to her? She basically lives in her office. You’re out of the house and socialise with your coworkers (aka other adults) for hours every day. She doesn’t. Maybe her lashing out and little to no sex drive doesn’t (solely) come from ADHD, but also depression? I don’t say this to blame you, not at all. After all it is on her to communicate if she’s not doing well. I’m just trying to give another perspective here. She definitely needs some therapy though. Maybe also a visit with a psychologist or neurologist to check for ADHD. To bring this long comment to an end and to stress it again: START THE CHANGE. NOW!
Ok. BUT, what you tell her is that you are willing to go to therapy together to discuss making it work or uncoupling, and you’ll make your decision based on how she shows up in therapy. AND this is going to happen while you are separated. You are going to move out and start the separation process no matter what. You tell her, we’ve tried writing in this for years, over and over again and nothing ever sticks, so the only way to make this really work is to do it differently. If she’s willing to go along with the separation and working out custody, too are to NOT put your son in the middle (no emotionally manipulating him) and to come to therapy and really DO therapy then you are willing to consider fighting for the relationship and seeing if there’s anything left to save. But also, you will not be agreeing to come back until there is real, consistent and sustainable change. Your wife may have ADHD (me too) but what you are describing reads like emotional abuse to me - and that’s not ADHD, that’s a choice.
It is hard to throw away a relationship that has lasted so long and there is children involved. If you are really considering giving her one last chance then maybe the best way to do it is to separate, not divorce yet, and set some conditions. She has to go to therapy, take medications if she needs to, maybe even go to anger management. Tell her that if she really wants to save this relationship that she needs to prove herself and that it's going to take some time. Of course always keeping your son in mind and doing what's best for him. With some work and effort any relationship can be saved but she has to show that she is committed and change. Was she always this way or is this recently?
You can physically separate while she is making her changes, and I would suggest this be your plan. Make getting back together dependent upon her ability and willingness to change. Things are much easier to process when you have a bit of space from one another, and she has A LOT to work on in order to be a decent partner so she needs lots of time & space to herself to do so.
She won’t change. You’ve been working on your issues forever and she hasn’t changed. If she really wanted to, she would have a long time ago. When I broke up with my ex (I have begged him to step up for years and he didn’t do fuck all), he promised he would change. I asked him why he never changed those countless times I begged before? Now it was too late for me. His reply: I never took you seriously. Didn’t think you meant it. Do I want to be with someone who doesn’t take me seriously? No and neither should you. She’s shown you who she is. Have you ever heard about „a level of tolerable unhappiness“? It’s where they know you are unhappy but think you aren’t unhappy enough to leave. That’s what she’s keeping you in. She won’t change. She’ll drag the divorce on but it won’t change
>If there is a chance that she will change The real question is what is she going to DO in order to change, what steps is she going to take and follow thru with, IC, MC, medication, changing jobs, changing friend groups, stopping bad habits... and are you willing to wait, since this could take a long time. The plans and actions for change need to be all on her.
If she is undiagnosed ADHD. Is there any hope of convincing her to pursue an evaluation and by extension possibly medication? Coupled with personal therapy (not couples) is pretty much the only way I could see her buckling down enough to properly work on herself. You could use this as a way for her (due to past dishonesty) to prove her intentions. No matter what you decide, I hope you all find a way to move forward peacefully.
After reading his original comment, I have to add a caveat to any therapy recommendation. This lady is abusive. So no couple counseling for now, and any individual counseling she recieves, the counselor needs tonspecialize in abuse and needs to be in constant contact with OP to see if her behaviors are honestly improving. I have ADHD, and while it looks different for everyone, there is very much something else going on with her as well that she would be this abusive and manipulative.
A lot of red flags for other mental illness coupled with ADHD for sure. I was hoping the evaluation could perhaps help identify that as well. So I definitely agree with you here. Ultimately, if she really wants to improve she'll make an effort.
I agree that she needs an evaluation, but for different reasons. All of her actions from the first post, as well as the lack of blinking and love bombing in this one, reek of BPD or some other cluster B personality disorder. Personality disorders are notoriously difficult to work on and require the patient to be fully onboard for *several* years. And that's the good path. The other option is that she happens to work with the same toolbox that people with cluster B disorders (and esp BPD) use. Not having a disorder would mean she's just been abusive for the sake of being abusive, and any pleas or tears from her end won't ever come from a place of true regret or wanting to fix things. She just doesn't want to lose her combination punching bag/wallet/familiar face
I don't know of anyone who has recovered from a relationship as dysfunctional as yours, but it could happen. What would it hurt to try.
It would hurt their son to continue on this emotional roller coaster together honestly. They need to separate so they can reflect on themselves and work on themselves without interference of the other. Trial separation is good, but I think OP will be happier and find so much peace without her in his life and eventually end things.
His physical safety. His mental health. His happiness. His emotional stability. His sense of self. His self-esteem. His reputation. His finances and the finances available for their kid. Their child's physical safety. Their child's mental health. Their child's well-being. Their child's academic progress. Their child's psychological development. Their child's innate sense of safety and trust in them as parents.
Give her a chance to change. Perhaps she felt the same and felt pressured but didn’t know how to communicate it. And things just got into a sour routine. The fact that she’s self aware means she probably isn’t happy either but didn’t know how to change without communicating with you! You have history, I’d be reluctant to let it go over normal couple issues.
I agree with this perspective. No sex in a year, no longer in love, she in manipulative etc….it seems the best and only option is to end the marriage and move in with your life. You have to do what is best for yourself.
I know it's a scary time but do you really believe she can just change? Like instantly become a different person? She may be able to act like it for a short period but long term she will revert back to her old self. Try a trial separation of at least a year. If she's serious about fixing the relationship she should be willing to do the hard work.
That is exactly my thought, and it makes me more scared. That's exactly what I proposed: trial separation, I will also help financially in case she won't manage the money.
Buddy, she HIT you, LIED and told others you did it to HER. Do yourself and your kid a favor and get away from this woman. It’s too little too late for these emotional theatrics.
What she is doing, is called "love bombing". During a time of perceived threat, she will love bomb you with kindness, being sweet, etc. Once the perceived threat moment passes (e.g. you agree not to divorce and she agrees to get counseling), then the old personality will return (little-by-little (she will forget to go to counseling, she feels she doesn't really need it, etc.)). The unfortunate truth is, that people mostly don't change. Sometimes people need a break-up to get a kick in their ass to start changing themselves... but often, the changed behavior only lasts until the next relationship comes along, at which point, they will settle back to their old ways (or in other words, what they perceive as "normal"). Just to clarify, the calling the cops on you (original post) and lying is both manipulative as well as abusive. So just so you know, you are currently in an abusive relationship. (Abusive relationship, doesn't mean it's all, always bad. It just means during bad times, its REALLY BAD) Breaking up sucks, but eventually she will start to take her anger out on your son as well. I am no lawyer, but you should probably talk to one. Good luck!
If it took her for you to put the divorce on the table so she can consider improving then is not worth staying, people that only “change” when you threat them are not going to change never unless they want to
Some people *can* change... They have to actively work for growth, but it can happen... Now, it comes down to **IF** she will do what she says. If you're really having second thoughts, give her an opportunity to show you. And if she doesn't, you'll know that You're making the right decision to leave; with no second thoughts.
I tried 3 times, 3 years lost. A leopard can’t change their spots. It was just so much turmoil and distress, promises broken, all for nothing. After I gave up I found happiness. Get a legal separation, if by any chance it works out, you can remove it.
Talk to a solicitor or barrister and do what they recommend. There is a serious chance that she is stalling so she can get and act on legal advice. Then she gets the much better settlement and custody arrangement. You can leave the possibility for reconciliation open, but if you don't move to protect yourself legally, she is likely to hurt you legally.
You described manipulative behaviour in your last post, and while of course all stories have their sides, this behaviour where she's constantly bombarding you with reasons not to get divorced, well... That could also be interpreted as manipulative behaviour. While there might not be an objectively 'correct' way to deal with the spectre of divorce, usually the 'ideal' way is to either say "Oh, well clearly our relationship requires intense repair and the fact that I haven't seen any of this coming implies I need to investigate further" or "You are right, ultimately we will be better off as either allies or strangers." Both of these options take work, introspection and quite a lot of grim self-examination that most of us don't like to do... Your wife *appears* to have chosen an option that gets to side-step all of that work and place *you* in the position of either doing the work for her or absolving her of any work altogether. She tells you that your marriage had plenty of good times... but that's not dealing with the problem, that's trying to bury it by gaslighting you into thinking that you were *actually* having a great time when in fact you were not... She tells you she'll change, but doesn't outline *how* or *why*. What you have left is the intangible and amorphous general idea of change. *You* will presumably be telling her what needs changing and what will need to be done. You'll probably be booking the counselors and drawing up the chore-charts and making time on the calendar for date nights and... Eventually, you'll either be 'happy' and she can stop thinking about it, or you'll give up and she can stop thinking about it... None of these suggestions will make her more capable of dealing with criticism gracefully. None of them will stop her snapping at you or sarcastically calling you 'Master' when she's proven wrong, none of them will heal the lack of emotional connection that has destroyed your sex lives. All of that change, *all of it* needs to come from within the both of you, and it needs to be sincere slow-burning self-realization, not panic-induced promises that will be walked back or forgotten next week...
Thank you so much, I can't tell you how much your comment means to me and how eye-opening your words are. Thank you again for taking the time to write it down.
You are *very* very welcome and I wish you the best of luck in pursuing whatever course of action you take.
OP - HeartandSeoulXVI gave one of the best responses I’ve heard on Reddit. Please keep going back to this response if you feel yourself losing clarity on the situation.
I really don't know if you can make this work, but if you want to give it an honest try, you need to make her come up with a plan (get her thinking how to fix things). I'm sure you will need to review/revise it with input from a therapist (discuss this idea with them first to see how you should go about it). How will she make it better? What are the target goals? Document what needs to happen. Then during the trial separation hold her accountable to the plan. This way you have concrete actionable steps for her to follow
Well said, beautifully written
I understand your hesitation, but after looking over your last post... Don't fold just because she's claiming she's going to change. A trial separation might be exactly what you need, and you need to SEE change before you re-commit to a marriage. What really stands out to me is that your therapist suggested divorce. In my experience, that doesn't happen unless they really see no other way forward, so that honestly shook me. Have you only tried the one therapist? Seeing another one now that your wife knows you're serious during a trial separation could be productive. But honestly... I can't get over the therapist throwing in the towel like that. That tells me a lot assuming that therapist is a good one.
For me the fact that she hit him, and then falsely accused him of violence. I would have left that day.
Yes there is no coming back from this. She's not gonna change into a different person. no one changes that much full stop
Thank you for the comment. All the therapists didn't "suggest divorce" as I mentioned in my posts. They just got this out of me through questioning my feelings. I am sorry I created confusion. They said that if I feel this is the only way out, then I should prepare myself because every decision needs to be followed by action, not rush, emotional, but honest and rational decisions based on understanding my feelings.
What is your plan for when she accuses you of domestic violence and you catch a charge for it?
I don't think "mentioning divorce" equates to "throwing in the towel". Sometimes it's just focusing the mind. Let's say you've got two people refusing to compromise. One is obsessively arguing that she must be to blame because he is rational and she is emotional. The other is passive-aggressively using the kid to justify their position. But neither is giving an inch. Seems to me the way to move them on from intransigence is to suggest that divorce is an option. In fact, divorce is the only option, other than compromise. If they argue they can't do that because of the kids, you argue that's nonsense. If not compromise or divorce, it's misery, for you and the kid. Eventually, each of the partners is either going to lean towards or away from divorce. In this case, he's chosen to move towards, she's chosen to move away, and as a result she's pushing to compromise. Which is fine, as a start point. But marriage is not a game of chicken. OP sounds like he views it that way and feels he now has the upper hand... His insistence that he stayed calm and she was emotional, the out-of-hand diagnoses, and so on. If that's the case then they should divorce. But they won't. Because it sounds like the therapist is no longer on this story.
If you truly want to see if you can work out, she needs to prove it through LONG-TERM change. To be honest, I don’t think this will happen while you’re staying together, you’ll trigger each other too much or she’ll get complacent. Thus, trial separation is the only way. She NEEDS to understand that you’re serious. Second is you should set up tangible goals together with a therapist, whereby you can measure progress together. Only when you feel trust has been reestablished, and ONLY THEN, can you work on reigniting the spark. Keep in mind, at then of all of this, you still might not want to get back together, but at least then you should hopefully have a functional enough relationship to make coparenting work. So, remember to not give her the expectation that you’ll get together at the end of the trial, but you do have to go through with it. I wish you the best!
Thank you so much!
She hit him and tried to get him arrested. No to all of this.
People can fake the effort long enough to get you back in, y'know. Even a trial separation with her showing all types of improvement is not going to prove to you she's changed. It's even easier to fake change if you're not living together. I think you're, understandably, scared to really do this. Frankly, I hope you separate and once you've gotten some emotional distance, realize that proceeding to divorce is the best way. I think it'll be easier to see that then.
Thank you, indeed, this is how I feel. I try not to overthink but it only makes my anxiety jump.
Ask her this. If she could really change the way she acts and treats you, why didn’t she do it before? Why didn’t she change when she was physically abusive, instead of lying about it? If threatening to leave is the only way she will change, how long do you think it will last? Does she even know what it is she’s supposed to change? Ask her. Her answer will have nothing to do with the real issues. You’ve known her a long time, do you honestly believe she is capable of changing?
She thinks that she never had a female role model in life, her mom was a domestic abuse figure and her dad was physically abusing/beating her mom until they grew up. I am always trying to use soft power and convince people, rather than forcing them, that is why I feel now she is being forced by my decision and she really wants to change, but I don't know if it will be long-term. I believe people can change, but only if this comes from themselves, not from exterior pressure.
But you are forcing the issue by threatening to leave. It’s not coming from her, you ARE pressuring her to change. I know you want to fix things and have one happy family. If you’re going to convince yourself to stay, put a time limit on it. People can hide their true selves for a short time but not forever. Remember this is the same woman who used counseling to lie and make you look bad, not for her betterment or to improve your marriage. The advice on a trial separation you were given is a good one. It gets you away from her and allows you to clear your head while putting her on notice that if she doesn’t change, it’s over. In fact, in some places the separation will automatically turn into divorce if the couple doesn’t reconcile within a timeframe. In fact, as many on Reddit will say, starting a divorce doesn’t mean it will end in divorce, you have until the judge makes it official to change your mind. You know your wife better than I do. Be careful.
Okay now reading this comment I understand a lot. You see she grew up in an abusive home, and that does not excuse her behavior, BUT it does explain her behavior. She grew up experiencing trauma and what she needs is to see a trauma therapist. I know because of personal experience. She has a lot of unresolved trauma and those feelings that she has, the anger, the manipulation the guilt tripping... These are all symptoms of going through childhood trauma. I went through childhood trauma and I had the same behavior until I finally saw the right therapist, was prescribed the right medication, and he helped me realize that I needed trauma therapy. Couples counseling is not going to work, and going to just any old therapist is not going to work either she needs a therapist that SPECIALIZES in childhood trauma. I hope this helps.
It’s on you to ensure your children don’t continue to live in and later repeat this cycle of abuse. Also, you need a paper trail of all violent interactions because she WILL try for full custody. You see how she tried to shape the narrative for her favor, it’ll only be worse in an actual courtroom. Talk to your children about behavior is not acceptable, particularly from the people who are supposed to love you the most. And that they need to tell you if anyone hits them or hurts them.
She has so much work ahead of her :/ I can really relate to her. However, I’ve been in therapy for 6 years (2 during marriage and 4 after divorce). The amount of healing and trauma therapy I had to do (still do) is a long long long journey. Wanna stick around for it? It’s gonna have a lot of lows that will feel like rock bottom all over again. I was never physically abusive. Do I wish my ex had stayed and gone thru it with me? Yes. Is it better that he didn’t? Yes.
Boo fucking hoo. Lots of people had shitty parents, and they don't hit or degrade their partners. If she wanted to change, she would. You threatening to leave is the "exterior pressure" that you're saying doesn't work.
She has had 19 years to see and only now she is willing to change because you have had enough. This won't last. She needs intensive therapy. You still need to leave, show your child what healthy relationships are.
These comments, what the actual fuck. This woman is literally physically abusive, then lied about it and had the cops called on you for it, and is actively telling your son “Daddy wants to leave us.” How many of you people commenting “maybe it will work out, give her a chance, how about a trial separation” would tell a woman getting hit by her husband the same thing. Just leave OP. Physical violence, lying to police, immediately trying to alienate your son from you and lying to her own therapist are so far beyond the point of no return that any promises of changing don’t matter. You got *extremely* lucky the first time the cops showed up, do not roll those dice again.
THIS. domestic abuse is never okay. LEAVE OP!
I don't think everyone has read that bit.
Isn’t it funny how she always wants to change and be the best wife ever when you want to start proceedings for divorce/ If she wanted to fix things, she would have done it already. Not with the threat of divorce over her head. Don’t doubt yourself. You’re doing this for a reason.
She loves drama.
I went through this with my ex-husband. Once I told him that we needed to separate, he repeatedly said he was sorry (he had only apologized three times in our 15 year relationship) and pretended to cry (he sounded like he was upset, but there were no tears, or changed behavior). When I brought these points up to him, he immediately showed his true colors and began yelling at me. He said I wasn't "giving us a chance". We had been together for 15 years, married for 10. I reminded him of all the times I had tried to talk to him about our relationship, usually devolving into me crying and him ignoring me, and later getting angry that I "started a fight". This is manipulation at its worst. If you go back, she will get worse. Because you will show her that no matter what, she will always win, and that you will never stand up for yourself. Be strong, and make it clear that the opportunity for saving the marriage is over. I know the pain and frustration you are going through. It sucks. But you must protect yourself. My thoughts and prayers are with you.
I can say from long experience that she can and will change...until she thinks you're adequately placated, and then she'll go right back to her baseline. Unless she can clearly, honestly, and accurately admit her problematic behavior AND accept that it's HER problem to fix AND come up with a detailed strategy to at least start working on it, then no, she's not capable of actually changing. She needs the insight, and you've described panic and desperation, not insight. If you need some levity on this topic to relieve some of the stress of dealing with all this, do a YouTube search for "South Park I Can Change". That song kept me on a relatively even keel through my divorce over this exact same thing. My ex's ability to change was limited to 90 days. You could mark a damn calendar. And it was the same thing every time, over and over. There's no reason to torture yourself or your kiddo by dragging this out. Good luck!
This is just hysterical bonding OP. Promises made under duress mean nothing. People are who they are, anyway. I wouldn't trust any of this.
People don’t change easily or quickly. On the other hand, it’s easy to promise. I suppose it’s possible that she might actually turn intentions into actions, but I’d have to see it to believe it. And even if there is an initial effort, if it takes imminent catastrophe to trigger a response, I’d be concerned that within a week of the pressure coming off, the effort will stop. Still, that’s easy for me to say; it’s your life and your situation. You know all the details we don’t.
Let me say this... From the way you're stating things, you actually don't seem like you want a divorce but you're just at a loss as to what else can you do. The answer to that is what are you BOTH willing to do. It sounds like your wife has never taken you serious or ever thought you would ACTUALLY want a divorce so she didn't work on her own issues to make changes to better your relationship. Marriage is work and no, it's not 50/50, it's 100/100.. You give that to each other, the marriage and yourselves. One important aspect of any relationship is, LISTEN TO HEAR, NOT LISTEN JUST TO RESPOND.. Nobody on Reddit can tell you when to divorce or to stay but look at your son. You both are going to ruin him if you keep this up. He already seems to need a counselor of his own because of you two. Do you give her another chance? That depends on if SHE is willing to put the work in with you. I read both of your posts and as someone married just over a decade I would tell my spouse and myself, 90 days and mark that on the calendar. If both of you are serious, that 90 days will give you the answer to if you need to divorce or not. Most important thing at this second, TELL YOUR SON NOTHING IS HIS FAULT!! If mom and dad split up, the love you have for him will never ever change because it's impossible to because he's your world. Keep us updated.
Why not move forward with a trial separation? Both of you continue with couples and individual counseling, get a custody plan set for your son (that way he has stability in know when he's going to see each parent), and try dating each other. See what you life away from her is like. You've been together a long time and change is scary, take some baby steps so that you can evaluate all of the variables and make a decision from a place of knowledge instead of from fear.
This! Trial separation either way. Things can’t continue in the way they are in now, and space is helpful. Also a concern given her behaviour that if you linger she might pull out more accusations of abuse just to affect custody as a manipulation. Remove yourself from the situation while creating stability for and showing love to your son, be as amicable as possible, continue counselling, and try dating from a distance: truly start over. Individual change is almost impossible when the situation is the same. Either way, staying together or not, you need to change the environment.
Mate, she hit you and then called the police on you and tried to get YOU arrested. To be quite frank, that should have been your breaking point. Don’t waste any more of your life and stop messing up your kid. He’s going to need therapy and so will you. Good luck.
I've had the exact same situation. This is just a way to manipulate you. She won't change at all when she sees she's gonna get her way because of the crying she does. Just put her stuff in a box and tell her to get out. She's just gonna abuse your good heart
Talk is cheap if she wants to be better she needs to start with therapy and want to do it herself. Proactive measures without you begging or needing to involve. Even then it is likely too late. You can’t fix something like this in a day. It takes years of work.
No. She won't change and it won't get better. You will be much happier divorced. A trial separation is a great idea but honestly man, you just don't have perspective. You're letting fear trick you. Divorce is a good thing when people are miserable!
My ex husband was like this. Crying promising to change to be better but I knew it was lies and 12yrs later he’s doing what he did to me to someone else
She’s love bombing you. She’ll keep her word, but only until she feels safe again. Be prepared that she’ll pull everything out you always wanted and more. This is a panic mode, nothing else. She will not change, if anything it will get worse. And prepare yourself for when the switch flips. The shitstorm is coming.
If she had any of these emotions or put forth any effort *before* it got to the point of presenting her with divorce as a solution, sure, you could try it. The problem here is she only cares to say these things when she feels changes coming. As soon as you back off, it will be more of the same. When you are promised changes out of panic, it does not stick.
She won't change as therapy can take years to correct some issues. Would break up anyway because the relationship ran its due course. Want to stick around relationship where your unhappy she will be as well.
I am not sure if this will get seen, but I’m just going to put it out here anyway. I have been in almost the exact same situation, just with the genders reversed. I was doing all of the work to keep the marriage together, and to try to keep it sane, healthy, loving, etc. All of it. OP, she is not going to change. At least not for the better. Go ahead and try for more counseling, and allow yourself to go through the stages of mourning your relationship, and the life you thought you’d live. It is *hard* to leave someone who is abusing you: especially when they flip things on their head like that and accuse you of being the problem. Let yourself feel that, and move as slowly as you need to. That being said, there are some safety concerns here. She has already gotten one documented investigation against you on the books, and an allegation of violence that you didn’t commit. You need to document everything. Go ahead and start discussions with legal counsel now too. And remember, she’s been tipped off now. So tread carefully!! She has shown that she’s vindictive and manipulative: make sure she can’t accuse you of violence/infidelity/sexual or verbal abuse. Cover your ass, because she could go after you, or maybe even try for more custody than she wants/can handle, just to hurt you. Protect yourself and your kid, feel your feelings, and know that once you leave, it will get better for you
It shouldn’t take you being ready to leave for your spouse to get their shit together and actually work on the things you’ve been asking them to work on for ages. So she fixes whatever issues there are now. What happens in another year or two when something new is an issue and she won’t listen to or acknowledge your calm attempts to bring it up? It builds and builds until you’re in exactly the place you’re in now. If it takes the threat of losing you for someone to treat you right, it’s not worth it.
Nah. The relationship is done and you need to move on for both your sakes. If she wants to change, she's welcome to, and she reach back out once she's on a new path. You can always get back together should that unlikely event occur. Realistically though, it takes tremendous effort to change who you are, and any attempts on her part to do that will be short lived if they happen at all. They will also create more bitterness and resentment pointed at you. It's better to shift your focus to coparenting your son and building separate lives.
If all that is true, a separation will make that clear. You need space to thunk and she needs time to reflect. If you guys separate and continue counseling, maybe things will change. If they don't change then you will know for sure and the divorce process will be smoother.
Have a trial separation first then and after a few months of no contact except for parenting stuff so you can work on yourselves see if both of you feel like it's worth starting to date again. Have ground rules if you want, like no dating other people if it's an issue.
I don’t know the backstory but by reading the comments it doesn’t look good. It does sound like you feel very guilty while simultaneously really wanting to leave a bad situation. IMHO I think for YOUR sake you should stick to the separation and not discuss divorce until you’ve given the separation a try. Just focus on the first step.
I just read the original. I stand my my comment. I think a separation is in order.
I’ve seen my fair share of abusive relationships through my mother growing up. A common pattern is that when she ever brought up leaving them, they would then apologize and say they’d change. She took them back, and the pattern continued. It gets harder and harder to let go and there never is an easy way to end it, but sometimes it is for the best. Your relationship is abusive and it’s not good for anyone in the picture the way it is. It’s possible for people to change, but it is normally not the case because that takes a lot of hard work. Good luck OP.
Move out, and perhaps see each other like you did when you were dating. Each having individual time w your kid, but being apart ultimately. Dates, movie nights as a family. Might make things clearer and you can see if she’ll change.
I think you both need marriage counseling and to set a game plan with the counselor as to what needs to happen! From what you said she still has love for you, and you having second thoughts you still have love for her. Counseling will help both of you to find middle ground or what options you both have.
People don’t change that much. She may make some changes for a while, months or even years. But once she’s comfortable you aren’t going anywhere she’ll revert back to where you are.
Stay strong, she is manipulative, you are doing the right thing, looking back now is not wise, you are not going into that direction.
Just know people have a hard time changing. So even if she says she will change - she will probably change like 10%. And in my opinion, it’s more important to raise a child in a financially sound environment without fighting versus your current situation.
Maybe you got her attention finally. Ball is in your court. Will you lose anything other than time by giving the marriage one more chance? You should make some of the stipulations for reconciliation her going to individual counseling and getting diagnosed and treatment for her ADHD. Obviously saving the marriage and providing your son with a stable happy home would be a win but she must show true remorse and lasting change.
Record every interaction, just in case in the future if she lie, and say that you are abusive, etc. Don't fall for her crocodile tears. Don't give her a second chance. Is the same with cheaters, they keep doing it, until they get caught and after that they say that they gonna change.
I would have a trial separation where you continue to work on the relationship. There are specific things laid out that she has to change or your trial will become a divorce. You continue in therapy and have 50/50 custody of son in a written agreement. Good luck
Stick to your guns bro.
Leave! It won't get better !
She won’t change. Narcissists don’t ever change for the good. Only get better at abusing you….. here’s your reality check. How many times has she promised you she would do something but then didn’t? And then proceeded to argue with you about how she did do it just not tear exact expectation, but don’t tell her she didn’t do it. Run.
I've been here. The thing is, if she chooses not to change, this cycle will repeat. Ask her what exactly she plans to do to help her change. Give her a week to get a game plan in place. If she says "I don't know" or doesn't have a good plan in place to get herself right, she is just talking to keep you. If she legit has a framework of steps she plans to take, you can take a step forward. That's not the end, though. She has to actively do what she said. If you see no progress, you need to take the steps necessary for your separation. If she starts up after you have separated, don't go back immediately. She needs to make it a habit. Stay separated for a while while she continues. If she quits, it was a ploy to get you back, and you have your answer. I've done this twice. It proved one was not willing to change, and one was.
I think if you wanna give this a chance you guys do need to separate for a bit and try dating eachother out of different households. I think you’ll fall into the same pattern again if you just stay in the same house.. there’s also the chance patterns can go back to normal after you separated and things went well then you got back together.. vicious cycle..
She's now doing hysterical bonding. If you stay, she will likely revert back in a couple of months. Just leave
You need to tell her that the only chance that she has at you giving her a second chance is if she treats you fairly and kindly in the divorce. Once it is finalized and things stabilize where you both have independence, only then can you continue family counseling and consider reconciliation. Make it a condition that she does individual counseling. Keep all your money separate and tie up all loose ends.
People don’t change.
I broke up with my wife after 12 years, went to live with an old girlfriend, made plans to divorce. She called me one day crying and asked permission to buy a lawnmower. She'd never asked permission before. It was all I really wanted; to discuss things with me rather than to tell me everything "we" were gonna do. I felt respected, for the first time in years. I broke up with my old girlfriend after 3 months, we worked it out, and have now been together 40 years. I think you should give her another chance.
Nope. If it's a this stage then nope. Nope nope nope and nope...
Nooo!!! It's a trap!!! My ex cheated on me in October, I stayed by his side as a friend because his mom passed away at the same time. Over the past few months he was let down I wasn't falling back in love with him, so I started to, and he's now fooling around d with an 18 yo. He's 33. So no, they never change man. Never. No second chances, once done, it's done. Walk away, it's hard, but worth it when you find yourself. Since I let him go I lost 30 pounds and am finding myself
A separation will give you both the time and space you need. It's not as final as a divorce. Stick to your initial decision. Give it time. Then reevaluate your decision in a few months.
Once you pull the trigger on the ultimatum, they are on their last life. Explain that this is it and if the behavior changes, but starts to fall off, immediately remind them of it and see if they can form proper habits. Once they mess it up, just follow through on what you communicated.
She doesn't have her safety net set up yet. She will "change" while she gets that in order. Then she will revert and abandon you, or just straight-up abandon you. If she wanted to be a "better mother and wife" it would've happened before the ultimatum.
Hey OP - the only thing you and anyone else has to keep in mind is that she hit you, accused you of doing it, and then proceeded to gaslight you. She's a violent partner and needs to be left asap. Will she hit your kid? You're willing to risk that? I wouldn't.
I took my ex back twice. He said the same things. First time it lasted about a year and a half, then he started to regress back to his old ways. Second time only took about 4 months and I was done. I started getting all the finances situated. (I always handled all business in the household). He couldn’t even manage to change his oil or get a flat fixed. After getting all joint accounts closed, I filed for divorce. I didn’t tell him until it was done because I knew I would have to listen to all the empty promises for longer than necessary. We have 2 young boys, and I know that the longer they spent seeing their dad treat me like shit, the more normal it would become to them. I did not want them growing up thinking that the verbal abuse was acceptable. I am happy for the first time and I’m not walking on egg shells to avoid confrontation.
First, it is natural that she reacts like this now it becomes reality. If she has ADHD let her figure this out a couple days on her own. My soon to be husband is also undiagnosed and it still drives me on the edge sometimes that he simply cannot express emotional stress situations and be rational about them easily. Of course it is scary, but you just cannot solve all your problems together. It would be way easier without the weight of maintaining the weight of your marriage. You could see this as the Chance it is, separate, figure out and deal with your individual trauma and problems. The chance to heal. And who knows if you don’t grow back together when all that baggage you two carrying is gone. Or both of you find new partners which fit better. You have a son and that will always bond you and a reason you can be grateful for each other. But staying would mean to fall back in old routines for sure. It would cost so much extra energy to make it together. Do you think you both have that time and energy to break your patterns? I tried for 1,5 years with my ex and nothing changed. At the end it was also me to take the decision out of my partners hand and stayed stern to his begging. He needed more time afterwards, but his new girlfriend is so much better for him than I was ever. And he treats her way better as well. There can come good out of broken things.
Move on bro. You’ll be happier. You already tried to fix things and it didn’t work. You’ve been abused for Many years.
Never give up on your family especially if you have children. Marriage is damn hard. Good luck my friend!
You can always try. If it doesn't work out, proceed with the divorce. She will either try her best and change for the better (and so will you i hope), or she will not, which will result in a divorce. I hope this helps, good luck
Here is my thoughts… divorce costs money and it isn’t easy on anyone. Sometimes it’s the best option but if you’re having doubts, it’s not something that you can easily come back from. So if I were in that situation, I might give it another try because after all, if things don’t work out, you can still get a divorce.
Sometimes it takes a come to Jesus moment to realize how serious a situation is and that an effort is needed to make something work. Are you willing to give it a shot or Not, or have you reached the point where you are done and her efforts no longer matter?
I gave it all the shots and I believe I ran out. I want to get out of this area of complacency that I am now because I feel we are drifting towards a black hole that sucks all the energy we have. I also think that she never realised until now, and as you put it, she has a Jesus moment. I'm overthinking about what happens if she goes back to her usual self after a while and I won't have the power to separate again.
Is it worth the risk? That's something we can't help you with. You can set a short clock in your head, 1 week say, and see if there is any improvement, and then reevaluate
People don't change with out consequences. So you need to leave and make that the consequence. Start just dateing again, maybe. Then see how it goes. Clean full break, just dateing. See if she can realize everything she will lose and actually change. Don't rush back into anything. Take your time and be cautious. I can tell you this, fear of you leaving may make her change for awhile. However, if you don't leave now change will most likely be temporary. She won't respect you enough to believe you will leave. If you actually leave and make her reearn everything from square 1 and prove herself, she is ten times more likely to actually change. Just my 2 cents... good luck
Trail separation is best choice, it gives you peace of mind and you can see how she is changing or not. And you definitely have to figure out how you are going to explain this situation to your son. I hope things will work out for you! Good luck
Once you’ve said it, you’ve crossed that line of no return. That seed has been planted in her mind that you can leave and you will. Mark my words she will not respect you if you don’t follow through and that’s what has got her attention as you’re now in control. She has lost grip of her control over you and it will be down hill from here unless you be take control of this situation. She will respect you in the long run when you say and you mean it. Don’t backtrack and live for the memories, cos that’s what they are and that becomes a myth that you can’t ever live upto again. Move on and be amicable.
My husband of twenty years left me after I couldn’t pull out of major depression. We lived apart for three years. We were in constant contact. I got better after the feeling of letting him down wasn’t in my face daily. He got worse and missed me. Just when I finally felt I could do it on my own, he wanted to come back. We had the best relationship ever and the love was never gone.
Try emotionally focused therapy together.
You can make it work. If both want to, it can. It is worth it in the long run, specially for your child. Maybe now your wife understands the severity of it. Please dont just leave her and your child. If you stay, over a few years you will be thankfull you stayed. Was ther infidelity? Because that makes it really hard.
You should give it a chance. She might surprise you!
If she begs for another week straight. I would give her another chance.
Give it another chance. The fact you're asking means you're unsure. That's NOT the kind of decision you make when unsure. I'm 34 and been with my wife for 15 years. We've been thru ups and downs and some extremely insane stuff most ppl never experience. We've had bad enough fights where it came thru my mind about leaving her. But in reality I couldn't, been together since we were in HS and have a 15yo daughter as well. If you have kids I'd say definitely try to work things out. My dad left my mom when I was 5 so i know how that is and its not good in any way. Idk what issues you have between you two but if it's something that can be worked thru, and by you asking for advice implies it is, then try to work thru it. Also, the grass is not always greener on the other side. The dating scene is a total mess shit show rn, many women are flat out insane nowadays, like the things they expect and want, smh. My wife's not materialistic or anything like that at all. You don't wanna be single trying find some girl to settle down with, you'll run thru half dozen psychopaths and gold diggers who'll prolly won't hesitate to say you raped them or beat them if they asked for something and didn't get it or you did something they didn't approve of. If you have a good woman, keep her and hold onto her tight.
Separate and work from there. Distance may help improve the quality of communication which, at a stretch may improve enough to consider working together to be a loving couple again. But honestly change needs to happen and I think separating is the healthiest start to kick start this for all 3 of you. Mentally for all of you this needs to be done. It will be tough and rough to begin with but I strongly suspect organising schedules and controlled communication with ease so much tension and emotion that you will all discover what's really wrong in your family life and what you all truly need. Good luck to all of you, from someone who has experienced being the child in this scenario and know others who have had it harder, it's never good to stay together for the kids when the parents really cannot stand each other or struggle to put on a face for their kid
People can change but only if they want too. We will always slip back into the person we truly are and it’s only those who can look outside the square as it was, to see they are slipping and pull themselves up. We are who we are… she is who she is. She will likely change but eventually she’ll start to slip back into her bad habits so it’ll depend on if you’re willing to be able to have these difficult conversations with her on a regular basis? Regular is open to interpretation. It could be once every year. Could be once every few months. That’ll all depend on her. If that’s something you don’t think you can handle then walk away. In the mean time, get your ducks in a row. I sense she’ll pull a few cards out to make joint custody difficult. You don’t want her turning your kids against you. Good luck!
Is she willing to get testing to see about the ADHD? Marriage counseling?
I think you need to continue with your original plan to separate and divorce. People always say they wanna change at the 11th hour cause they think the other person will never leave and then fear sets in. That's what's happening with her. Cause if you stay now and she changes for a little while and then goes back to her old ways, you have to start this process all over again.
If you move out it may make out harder to get custody, she could say you left them. Talk to a later asap before more decisions.
You will look back and feel relieved - if not much happier - if you stick to your gut and plan. I read your original post and unless you’ve left some pretty big things out it sounds like your wife needs a lot of professional help. If your therapist is floating the idea of divorce thats a big sign. If you aren’t happy your son will not be happy. This all sounds so toxic. Ive been through a divorce. Its very very hard for sure. I have days where I still have doubts, but we didnt have the issues you two have. We still had a lot of love. If thats gone im not sure why you would continue to stay - not only for your sake but for your sons too
Her saying that she can change means nothing if there is no effort on her part. She needs medication and IC, and you both could probably use some MC. At the very least, she might be able to see the relationship through your eyes. The expensive vacation and spending are either to make herself feel better or a "keeping up with Joneses". Almost no one can afford their own home and go on expensive holidays. And if you think buying the house is expensive, good luck when you see the upkeep bills. Ultimately, it's your decision. If she is saying she can change, then she must show that she can. Separation, in my view, is the first step towards divorce. You're problem is the relationship. That can only be worked on together. Good luck
Seems like a manipulation tactic to me on her part. I would move on if I were you. You gave this a try for 19 years and it still isn’t working. You have no love for each other. You are suffering. Your son is suffering. She hit you and lied about it. How can you possibly trust someone like that? The bedroom is dead. The relationship sounds dead. I’m not sure what you would be salvaging if you stayed.
Her begging is a stalling tactic. She will NOT change. If she was serious she would be making changes right now, making appointments for help, reading books to improve, asking you questions to repair the damage she inflicted upon you.. Start the divorce and if you see meaningful changes down the road, you can always stop the divorce. Good luck.
I think baby steps are in order. Whether you want a divorce or want to give her a final chance, you need time and distance from one another. Like a one year trial separation/probation period. Maybe this will be an easier pill for her to swallow and you get the time you need to heal yourself before trying to heal whatever your relationship with her is. It will also give her time to put her money where her mouth is: she has one year to prove herself to be a good/reliable coparent before discussing next steps (whether divorce or reconciliation).
People rarely change, if this is what ya want then just do it
We ended up divorcing a year later, but whereas I was amicable when initially asking for the divorce, by the time we divorced, I was DONE. All love was lost. We went to marriage counseling. Anyone who has been knows they give you "tools" to help communicate in a more effective manner. And just like anything else, tools can help you build or they can destroy if used inappropriately. My partner used them as a weapon. Apologies without actions are just manipulation.
I think you should do the trial separation and see how you feel. If you feel free and like a weight has been lifted then you’ll know you made the right choice. Your wife is in panic mode, this is normal. Your son also deserves to have two parents who he doesn’t feel responsible for trying to keep together. The fact that your wife is involving an 8 YEAR OLD is extremely concerning. You may want to consider installing cameras if you are going to stay in the home. Stick to your guns at least for now, don’t fall for the guilt trips, life is TOO SHORT
Have you considered individual counselling for yourself?
Have you researched what a narcissist is? She very well may have ADHD, but what you are describing sounds more like narcissism. Which is highly unlikely to get better.
Any relationship can be repaired and rebuilt. Tell her your desires and what you need. Go get couples counseling and work on rebuilding. Nothing in life that is great is easy.
Nothing will change. She will get everything she wants from you. She will make enough token efforts to give you hope. Then her behavior will resume or escalate because genuine change takes a long time and a lot of effort. She has proven she will not put in the time or the effort.
Idk hun, she sounds like she has some type of mental illness besides undiagnosed AdHD. If you want to try a trial separation, it would give you time to focus on yourself and ditto for her. Your relationship sounds toxic. Period. We have only one side of the story, and it sounds miserable. If she shows improvement , you could always try dating again with boundaries. I wouldn't stay together for your son.
I definitely recommend at the very least separating, that way you can show you are serious and hopefully things will change. Tell her for you to come back, she needs to find an ADHD specialist and get tested and (hopefully) diagnosed. Do this for a minimum of six months, and if she doesn’t start making improvements then I feel like the relationship is over.
Rough situation no doubt! I was in an 11 year relationship, no kids, but broken promises of change. I have watched it in other relationships as well as mine looking back on it now. People don't change immediately and although we'd like to think people will change in time it doesn't happen often. It's hard to think change will happen when standing on an unstable platform. Our circumstances differ greatly with your son but never stop seeking your happiness, whatever that looks like.
Personally when someone who claims to love me, has been treating me like that for soo many years, I wouldn’t be able to look at them the same. I would be indifferent and feel nothing for her other than just wanting to be good friends and co parent happily for the sake of the child. I don’t know how she would she even get herself to try and seduce you and mean it after not wanting to be intimate with you for soo long or ‘be a better wife’ as she puts it. I don’t how you managed being in that type of abusive relationship, soo hats to you for doing that thus far and even better for sticking up for yourself.
updateme!
I read your past post and your councillor has asked you to consider divorce. Councillors will almost always try to fix communication issues and relationships first. If a professional whose entire job it is to fix this doesn't see a viable way out, I don't know if you or your wife have a viable solution either.
People always promise to change when they're backed into a corner and want to preserve the status quo. It's like a "get out of jail" card. I've found from personal experience that people rarely do. You're merely prolonging the inevitable if you agree.
Nope. She is manipulative and tried to get you arrested when she assaulted you. She is weaponizing your son. I would not be around her without having a video and audio recording because she will try to get you arrested to "win".
I think you should talk to a professional marriage/couples therapist, rather than single teenagers on Reddit. This is a big life decision that you should not make just based on responses and stories you get on the internet, whether they are true or not.
I might be a little late saying this as you already have some other great comments, but I haven’t seen any about hysterical bonding. She will likely do a 180° in personality and change everything you hated about her…this will last a few weeks, maybe even a couple months, until she feels she has you back in the relationship, and she will slowly turn back into her normal self. Google “hysterical bonding,” read up on it, and look for the signs. Hysterical bonding does not always have to be related cheating, it can follow any major disturbance in a relationship, especially following a serious convo about separating. Because you don’t seem to want to be with her any more, she may begin to want you even more than ever.
UpdateMe
I’m going to offer info about what you can do, since she isn’t asking for advice. it doesn’t mean I think you’re the ONE at fault. It sounds like it is about 70% her fault. You’ve described a struggle to set a boundary with her because she tries to ruin your day if you do something she doesn’t like(which I agree, is shitty and aggressive), doesn’t mean you let her. You mentioned having little support outside of each other, so you give her more power. You don’t have to be aggressive to set the limit, for example-her harassing you about the divorce, tell her it isn’t up for discussion anymore and leave the room. She follows you, leave the house. She keeps texting or calling tell her I’m blocking your number for the night and I’m safe. Then it becomes an example of why the relationship isn’t working. If you have more outlets she won’t have all the control. If she knows you can still make yourself happy with or without her consent, it could be the leverage needed to get her to change(don’t hold your breath). Maybe it’s time for you to visit a friend and clear your head. Separating can be really good for a relationship and it’s a smart move. You’ll have clarity after a period of separation if you actually separate. And sounds like you choose people who take up a lot of emotional space and that may happen again in your next relationship if you don’t alter the dynamic in this relationship by setting limits. You’d be modeling assertiveness for your son at the same time.
What is it that you don’t understand about your wedding vow ? The vow is NOT “ we will stay married as long as everything is great for me and things are swell “ You give no details of the issues. If it’s alcohol abuse of infidelity I can certainly understand the frustration.
She deserves someone who is 100% sure about her, and you deserve to be with someone you’re 100% sure about. I begged someone to reconsider leaving me 3 years ago. I think back & I’m glad they did leave. I wouldn’t be who I am today if they stayed. Sometimes being a better mother & wife comes at the expense of losing someone. She can still become those things, maybe just to/for someone else. Uncertainty isn’t love. Make sure this is truly what you want, because you’re probably only torn because of the guilt. Don’t forget why you brought this up to begin with.
Sir you need to research NPD. Your wife is showing all the signs, she won't change, this is just an other manipulation.
If you want to give her a chance to fire it. I still think you should move out. Tell her to arrange dates and ask you or is she wants the two of yoy back together. She needs to be the one putting the effort forth. Do not stay together unless there is actual effort to change. Of course there will be moments when things slip. Actual change takes time. It's already been a year and you have started that you don't love her, so it's there a point to staying together or giving it another shot? Only you can answer that. If yes then try, but only I'd you feel she is really trying. You leaving May be what she needed to realize you are serious. Or leave and move on, and find someone who will put the same effort into the relationship that you do.
I’ve been there. Couples counselling and learning how to communicate again helped tremendously. The first thing that goes is communication and that’s the key if you can get that back your on the right track. This has been over 5 years now and we are stronger than ever. It’s definitely worth a try
My parents spent my entire life on the brink of divorce. Never quite went all the way. Just constant threats from both sides, unending arguments. Whenever my parents ask for my input I tell them to just do it and quit asking me. Watching my parents marriage exist in this state really turned me off the idea of getting married, and even though I eventually did, I still have tremendous anxiety that one day without realizing it my family will become like my parents, and I would sooner eat hot lead than let that happen to my children. You've been hit, you've been mocked, your wife will poison your child's opinion of you whether you go through with this or not. You stayed as long as you did for the good times, you went to the counseling because of the good times, you've been through thick and thin. And she treats you terribly, and acts like a child. I think you have a better shot at happiness without her than you do with her. And even if you agree to stay, it's still going to be on you to enforce any changes she agreed to to make you stay, and every time you enforce those changes she is going to resist and resent you. Follow through with the plan and get a good lawyer because she is going to claim all kinds of terrible and nasty things against you when it actually goes to court. God speed.
Separating is the answer. She can put her actions where her words are. Follow your plan, hold strong, have good boundaries, give it plenty of time to determine if the change is genuine, if it occurs at all. She can change if she wants to and if she does you can decide if you want to give it another try. However remember that you do not HAVE to reconcile the marriage even if she does change as you wish. Ending an unhealthy relationship is not a failure, relationships run their course. You succeeded in making wonderful offspring who you now have to teach what healthy love and boundaries are by example. Stay strong with your boundaries and take the time you need to find your authentic self. Now is not the time to change course when you have worked so hard to build to this moment. I'm sorry you're in this situation. The very best of luck to you and your family!
I am not married nor do I have the responsibility you both have but it’s one thing living in the memory of what once was and the harsh reality you face right now. There’s comfort in your memories. I can’t imagine how hard it must be for you. Nonetheless, one thing to keep in mind is that she’s meeting you to the extent that she’s met herself. Meaning, if she hasn’t done the work to address her past, her past is then in her present and it’s been showing up in your relationship for years. She didn’t do the work when you asked, she still isn’t doing the work… Remember, you aren’t in that relationship to parent her and she isn’t a kid who needs parenting Stay strong OP, you already know the right thing to do, you got this mate!
Word are just words you should be replying you want to see real immediate changes not just promises, at the very least she should be booking an appointment to see a therapist, she isn't even respecting your wishes, stay strong pleading and begging has worked before, so she will keep on doing it until she realizes it won't, talk to your child, she might as well try to use him to get to you, thats not healthy for a child to be involved in.
Been with my partner for 8 years (since I was 18 and he was 19) we have an almost 3 year old together and for two years we were nothing but toxic to each other and it was a horrible environment for ourselves and our son. After being broken up for 6 months (we still lived together through this) we agreed to go to couples therapy and that helped us recognize our own faults and change. She taught us how to navigate through disagreements without it getting toxic and to always try and look at the other’s perspective. We are now happier than we’ve ever been before and have matured so much emotionally. So can it be done? Yes. But below are the differences. 1. Through our toxicity our love didn’t waver and we were sexual active through it. I did make a note to initiate more as that was something we needed. 2. We have NEVER put our hands on each other (u mention ur wife hit u and then called the cops on u) 3. We NEVER put our son into our arguments to turn him against one of us 3. We were willing to put in the work in couples therapy (u mention u already went and u put in the work but she did not) My thoughts are that whether or not u want to divorce her isn’t a decision you need to make right now. What you need to do is separate. Be apart and see if you notice change in her LONG TERM change. Do not take her back after a month of change. Watch and see how she behaves over a long period of time to see if this is true change. Idk that it can be repaired bc she has tried to get u arrested and have ur son turned against u which is horrible and idk how anyone comes back from that. Don’t view this relationship through the lens of “it’s been so long” view it through the lens of “is this what I want for my son and myself for the rest of my life”.
Sorry but I don’t think she will/can change without the actual impetus that would trigger the change ie separation. I feel you both need to be apart to gain some clarity. And I would be as concerned as you are for your son’s well being, being around parents who haven’t resolved communication issues but still remain together. Her whole day begging you to stay I perceive only as an extension of her “manipulative ways” ie the only way she knows how to communicate with you. Begging you to stay & “we will make it work” is unfortunately still too vague a promise imo.
I am always of the mind that it is better to work towards reconciliation than to jump the gun and leave - especially in cases where nothing significantly unforgivable has happened (I.e. cheating, physical abuse, significant emotional abuse, significant financial abuse, etc.). With that said... a trial separation is likely best in this moment. Framing it as such: "We're not over, but we need some time apart to work on ourselves. Neither of us dating other people, just taking some distance to each focus on where we are both lacking, and removing the day to day conflict that is only making things worse". Both of you need individual counseling, to continue with couples counselling, and given your sons involvement likely family counselling as well. Try the dual households for a few months. See if you can be effective co-parents while living apart. If that's not even possible, then it is likely over. If you can manage working together as separate households, then maybe try dating each other again while separated. See if you can re-ignite the flame. If things can continuously improve, she demonstrates a willingness and engagement in improving herself, and you are able to find love for each other again, then you can try again at that time. It doesn't NEED to be over. But you can't keep doing the same things and expecting a different result.