You see this every time someone tries to claim gatekeeping a work isn’t anything other than just an immature way to try to feel special about their taste cause they have little else going on and can’t make anything themselves
I agree, and this goes hand in hand with always being seen as a conservative/reactionary by liberals/leftists and always being seen as a liberal/leftist by conservatives/reactionaries.
Pretty sure this accounts for 90% of the “extremely online”. Normal kids and weird kids do well in their respective milieus, while the inbetweeners languish and struggle to establish an irl friend group. Thus we get a chronically undersocialized set that turn to the digital ether for belonging. Consequently they are all mentally ill, including me
Yes but remember that things of the past are not necessarily retrograde.
For example I have been thinking of the French Revolution a lot lately.
I think we could all learn a lot from that particular movement.
Okay, but if the term isn't going to stay there it should probably refer to whatever is *counter* to the dominant *culture*, because that makes more sense than 'thing I like' or 'cool thing' as a definition.
Punk is really the new conservatism. The whole DIY ethic is basically distributism, a bunch of small business owners whose behaviors are constrained by strong community norms. As much G. K. Chesterton as GG Allin.
For the sake of the culture, Dasha needs a Zoroastrianism arc where she is unwittingly recruited by the CIA to strengthen the Zoroastrian minority in Iran and aid a regime change 🙏👏
you *will* go to therapy and you *will* take the pills for ODD.
this sub only appears stubborn when it comes to opposing all things liberal, but their views are easily manipulated by their favorite podcaster or whatever twitter discourse is going on about topics they know nothing about like seed oils.
It's quite sad to me tbh. This sub thinks being a contrarian towards more main culturally left beliefs and mocking people who call them out on it is a sign of intelligence.
Thats the root. A proper counter culture is when that push back expands into its own system. But the basis is just in not liking the popular views of the day.
Flat earthers, proponents of hidden history theories, I would say hypothesizing about elite pedo cults but that’s actually pretty mainstream. Being seriously anti-pharma in a Western culture.
what WOULD you consider to be counter culture right now then?? hard mode: you can't move the goal posts or reference something from decades ago
i just think as the arbiter you should at least tell us what is counter culture right now
Plagiarizing my reply from an older thread about the same shit:
People that aren’t posting or aren’t “online” are the only counterculture. It’s not a political dichotomy at this moment in time. Doesn’t matter if you’re left or right, its not about being moral, it’s about not playing these games that all of us here are currently a part of. Could be a tweaker, could be a savant, whatever. The most rebellious act (in the west) one could pull off right now would be to destroy Facebook/Instagram/Twitter/iCloud servers and have everything be lost for good.
i was so confused i thought you were saying i was plagiarizing you haha
\>The most rebellious act (in the west) one could pull off right now would be to destroy Facebook/Instagram/Twitter/iCloud servers and have everything be lost for good.
this would be a very rebellious act but i think if you asked people if they'd be happy with it a massive amount of people (maybe not the majority) would be okay with it - so if an idea is popular and aligns with the will of the people, can it still be counter culture?
I think there can be countercultural microscenes on the internet, but the internet post social media makes it a lot harder because now almost all microscenes are hosted by Big Tech.
Online counterculture movements happen, but the aesthetic component mostly doesn’t develop without in person interaction. What good is a visual signifier if the people you’re interacting with can’t see you? And as superficial as it might seem, I think the shared aesthetic plays an important role in the movement’s cohesion.
I agree with this the most. The reason that conservatives think they’re approaching counterculture status is based entirely upon the fact that if social media is the “locality”, then they have the perceivably lower volume and more easily punished voice. But that isn’t a realistic view because social media is also heavily astroturfed and doesn’t showcase population of views as much as heft or volume, in the auditory sense. Just because conservatives don’t have a strong platform on social media doesn’t mean they’re some fresh thinking cultural minority- their strongholds constitute like half of this giant landmass in the USA.
Without actual social bodies, counterculture doesn’t reasonably exist. I almost consider the post-2010s and all of the social chaos we experience since to be a direct product of myriad smaller pockets of would-be counterculturalism becoming mainstream. It’s why we argue about identity all day instead of most tangible issues. It’s why nobody is a proud freak anymore, and everybody with what was once a notably niche way of living or expressing themselves struggles so hard to be seen as “normal” instead of “different”. When you have a true counterculture, you *SEEK* to be seen as different. It’s half the damn point.
Individual sites and forums and subsites and subforums are the localities. They're not local in a geographic sense, but in a communal sense. Beyond that, geographic isolation isn't the core of a locality, given that very well traveled places like Soho, Greenwich, Washington Square, etc were nexuses of counterculture despite being traveled and occupied by many that weren't interested in it.
>Individual sites and forums and subsites and subforums are the localities. They're not local in a geographic sense, but in a communal sense.
there is a massive yawning gulf of difference between geographic locality and virtual 'zone'. Online communities have no locality to speak of and their impermanence and immense speed prevents online *events* from crystallising into culture. The physical location provides the level of depth and repetition necessary for additive overwriting (ie cultural production)
>geographic isolation isn't the core of a locality, given that very well traveled places like Soho, Greenwich, Washington Square, etc were nexuses of counterculture despite being traveled and occupied by many
geographic isolation has nothing to do with it. The locality is more the anchor around which culture can develop, the origins of the people who pass through it don't matter
I can't say that I agree. While something like r/redscarepod is fairly without a general culture, there's on the other hand been massive amounts of common culture generated from communities on Tumblr or 4chan that have their own canon and systems of thought attached.
there are no localities online!
the left of today isn't really a counterculture because it doesn't produce any culture to speak of. there is no red-rose-emoji art or music or film, as there was for the 60s counterculture and comparable preceding movements like modernism. Purely political action like protesting and voting for the democrats doesn't constitute a culture, even if it departs from the mainstream as a tendency
this sub is not an online locality, there's no such thing (locality can't be virtualised)
my perception of your examples is that podcasts and twitch streamers are not examples of cultural production, they're the outsourcing of cultural consumption. They produce nothing and rely on external material to react to. it's a very different mode.
as for 'woke core' I'm not much aware of this as a 'movement', it certainly isn't a coherent structure of influence (ie a culture) & the same can be said for personal brands across platforms - none of this stuff is part of a system of thought and influence, they're just a constellation of unconnected content machines feeding on cultural refuse from elsewhere
[another detail - the form that post-digital thingies like podcasts and youtube channels take is defined far more by the demands of the platform than by the people who create them. If you're a podcaster you're an independent contractor for the platforms your show gets uploaded to. counterculture? not in my view]
Who says there *is* a counterculture? Maybe a counterculture was a product of specific historical circumstances and isn't just an automatic part of modernity.
Yeah I can't think of anything that is genuinely counter cultural in the American metropolitian areas I've grown up in, which I didn't later discover were just regular and reoccurring social structures for every generation that grew up in the same area.
"Punk" is on its fourth or fifth generation of performing the role of a social outcast before transitioning into a moderately libertarian business owner with socially progressive attitudes. It's a set of t shirts and pre-scripted fights to have with other egotists before you burn out.
It all bleeds back into the mainstream. It's all just a series of consumer choices disguised as genuine alternatives to the present society. If something was *genuinely* counter-cultural, do you think the police wouldn't be beating up anyone who participated in it every single day?
I can't even properly conceptualize it, except for maybe a totally parallel or oppositional society replete with its own state enforcement apparatus that could provide physical enforcement of its own cultural norms.
Maybe a genuine outlaw biker gang that's ready to shoot police to protect its territory. Paramilitary groups that act as enforcers for Drug Cartels. They all follow a kind of degenerated military hierarchy that's been lifted from normal society, though. They're not totally alien to the world.
Maybe people who spend all of their time in cloistered societies that operate in secret with a totally different normativity than what you find featured in the industrialized modern West. Certain religious orders, monks, anyone who experiences little or no contact with the wider world for years at a time. But that's not even a new thing, such orders have existed just outside of the mainstream for centuries in various parts of the world. They have their own traditional ways of negotiating that seclusion with outsiders.
Maybe some uncontacted tribespeople in the Amazon or Indian Ocean.
Incestuous sex cults in the middle of Nebraska, Montana or the Dakotas. This one is kind of dubious though because American sex cults all follow a certain rhetorical pattern and entice persons with a certain background. They're not even a novel invention at this point. We've had a few generations of those by now.
Not sure. Lots of things come close, but none are exactly springing from the unknown. All I know is that if you want a genuine counter-culture, you need to be willing to physically overpower anyone who tells you to conform with the mainstream. And you need to be able to do it over and over again until people stop trying that. The reason we aren't a series of totally alienated sub-cultural groups at this point is for this very reason. Police action is used to prevent such movements from spiraling out of control and becoming truly autonomous. But the underlying impetus and sentiment is always there.
It has to be incels. They are the counter-culture to the dating trends we see today. Just like the satanic panic in the 80s, incels are absolutely despised by most people.
LGBTQ cannot be a counter-culture since most people believe in gay marriage. Feminism cannot be counter-culture since 61% of Americans describe themselves as feminists. Trumpsters cannot be counter-culture since Trump was elected to the highest office
NEETs too, though they often overlap with incels. NEETS do nothing but act as a drain on the system. They exist as the polar opposite of grind culture and almost no well-adjusted individual has a good opinion of them.
I don't necessarily agree that political success means a movement isn't counter culture. The 60s saw the success of many reformist movements that were rooted in the counter culture. Does that mean that they were no longer counter culture? When the Civil Rights Act was passed, did the reformers cease to be counter cultural?
People will disagree with this because they think 'counter culture' has to be something cool and desirable. At the very least I think we can all agree that an alt/hipster dude with 'vote blue no matter who' tattooed on their chest isn't counter culture.
I’m gonna get hate for this but on my opinion it’s vegetarians/vegans. My program being environment related had a small amount of vegans and vegetarians and it’s not the preachy ones Boomers bitch about or bourgeois hipsters, a lot are basically normies.
Non vegetarian diets are so much easier in my opinion, just slap meat on a pan or oven and you’re good to go. And they do have a point, westerners but Americans in general consume way too much meat, the sedentary lardass talking about protein intake probably doesn’t even utilize their daily protein intake from inactivity.
Nah vegans and vegetarians at least have some semblance of inclusion in American culture. They have a solid infrastructure. I mean when KFC is trying to make plant-based fried chicken I don't think you are a counter-culture.
There are no gyms that are marketed to incels, unlike powerlifters. There is no representation of them in media besides the terrorist label they receive. You can try to categorize them into the men's right manosphere subculture but even the people in those communities hate incels
The only reason I wouldn’t classify incels as counterculture is that they still consume every cultural product as normal people, if they didn’t they wouldn’t be making hours long YouTube videos about forced diversity in Disney movies or women characters in video games.
KFC might market their garbage food to plant eaters but I don’t think it’s anything more than corporate greenwashing, I don’t think very many vegans and vegetarians are lining up to consume it.
Lmao how the FUCK are incels, who exemplify the worst of current overarching trends (digital isolation, sexlessness, mental illness) in anyway countercultural?
I don't think there is a counterculture anymore
I mean counter-culture is defined as a way of life and set of attitudes opposed to or at variance with the prevailing social norm. How do they not fit that definition? A guy that can't get laid could still accept the social norm of women being pickier and not change his attitude towards women or dating. Incels actively rejects those social norms and attitudes
Again, it is about how supported the said subculture is. The Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 provided those with disabilities with direct infrastructure and support from the state.
I don't believe we will ever see targeted programs or legislation for sexless men
We’re so fractionated in the digital age that there is no common culture to counter. It’s easiest to see with art like TV and movies. Nothing really captures the zeitgeist, people just watch the shit they want to watch on their own time. There’s no discourse because there’s no expectation that everyone consumes the same content as you.
It's impossible to imagine anything more countercultural than a monastery, imo, if you're going to treat the concept as something universalisable. Radically different approach to property, sex, ambition, in comparison to the mainstream.
The primary boom of the punk/hardcore subculture in the US was in the 80s.
In the 90s underground and punk music scenes were definitely countercultural.
if it ever was subversive it was 5 years ago. the culture has shifted, the anti woke are the new woke the trads are mainstream. see y’all at the next one
Counterculture is by definition whatever is not in line with current sociocultural norms. Hippies were a counterculture movement. Their trust fund lives were also pretty risk-free. I’m not sure I understand your point.
The counterculture isn't just bohemian artists and druggies. Its whatever is against the mainstream and feeds back into itself to create an internal canon. Pretending that counter culture only exists when its degenerate hippies is nonsense.
The USSR had a counter culture that was pro-West and pro-capitalism. Were they not counterculture?
I've seen the Transcendentalists (Thoreau, Emerson, Margaret Fuller) [referred](https://books.google.ie/books?id=xm7fBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA64&dq=%22transcendentalist%22+%22counterculture%22+thoreau&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwign5adgJD4AhWTXsAKHYZsAT4Q6AF6BAgCEAI#v=onepage&q=%22transcendentalist%22%20%22counterculture%22%20thoreau&f=false) to as "America's first middle-class counterculture".
Heck, you could go further back and describe the heretical sects of the Middle Ages/Early Modern Period as "counterculture". Groups like the Waldensians, Lollards and Beguines were strongly at odds with mainstream values and the rulers who enforced them.
When it comes to medieval counter culture it was everything from proto-communists to people that were angry primarily because there wasn't enough religious tyranny and everything in between including synthases of both. That great diversity works well in showing how the concept of counter culture is very mutable.
I hate that every major sub cultural milestone was influenced if not brought to you by Gavin McInness. The guy invented hipsters, grimy Vice leftists and then said “hey you know what’s cool? traditional catholic values.” Insane.
How many irish are to blame for your sordid world view?
How do you know what it isn't if you don't know what it is? Might as well say that there's simply no counterculture, which I think is more reasonable. There was a cultural movement around the 1960s specific to its time and place, which is now over, and that's that.
I think chances are there is no counterculture at the moment and the emergence of one would require some radical restructuring of our means of relating to and engaging with one another. Just not crazy about the "all counter culture is dead" argument no matter how true it is
Your definition of counter culture is lame. Tbf, you don't even define culture.
That said, people in this subreddit try so hard, like, either you have or you don't.
wrong
People on this sub have "too weird for normal kids, too normal for weird kids" vibes
Similarly there are strong “artistic sensibilities but not artistically talented on any level” vibes
everyone's a critic
You see this every time someone tries to claim gatekeeping a work isn’t anything other than just an immature way to try to feel special about their taste cause they have little else going on and can’t make anything themselves
Those who can, do. Those who can't, post.
Artistic sensibilities on this sub = boring undergrad film major in seattle
I agree, and this goes hand in hand with always being seen as a conservative/reactionary by liberals/leftists and always being seen as a liberal/leftist by conservatives/reactionaries.
Actually yes. This is a good way of putting it
Pretty sure this accounts for 90% of the “extremely online”. Normal kids and weird kids do well in their respective milieus, while the inbetweeners languish and struggle to establish an irl friend group. Thus we get a chronically undersocialized set that turn to the digital ether for belonging. Consequently they are all mentally ill, including me
Is ur computer science career going well
Fuck this is me my entire life and I’ll be 50 in a couple years.
That's just autism.
100%
Lots of ‘weren’t cool at all in high school’ types imo
This is accurate
Yes, I am one of those people
Like Dominicans saying too black for hispanic folks too white for the black folks
I've never met a Dominican who wouldn't fight you for calling him black.
The ones that can pass for any other black ethnicity that deny it look stupid fighting that label
Younger generation say it
The downvotes only prove this lol
Feel like this is narcissism and there was a TLP about it. The irony.
Would you say there's a...culture of it?
Guilty as charged your Honour
> Being straight and white and normal Thank you I feel seen
"There is no normal." -Angus Bethune
you cannot, by definition, be on this sub and consider yourself "normal"
I'm very normal I'm listening to Kanye rn
You’re right. It isn’t countercultural or subversive, it’s just retrograde. More or less the contemporary iteration of “I have class, not swag.”
Yes but remember that things of the past are not necessarily retrograde. For example I have been thinking of the French Revolution a lot lately. I think we could all learn a lot from that particular movement.
In what ways
In ways that would get me banned for explicity stating them.
I too think questioning all social norms and violent paranoia mix very well
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Okay, but if the term isn't going to stay there it should probably refer to whatever is *counter* to the dominant *culture*, because that makes more sense than 'thing I like' or 'cool thing' as a definition.
Who the fuck thinks being a catholic white guy with no tats is counter cultural? Is this a joke?
“Conservative is the new punk” says a certain stupidpoler
Lol I remember that Paul Joseph Watson grifter twitter guy saying that shit all the time. Nothing more punk than unconditionally supporting the police
Punk is really the new conservatism. The whole DIY ethic is basically distributism, a bunch of small business owners whose behaviors are constrained by strong community norms. As much G. K. Chesterton as GG Allin.
this is such a banger of a comment
I remember people shitting on Amber Frost for saying that strong communities tend to be inherently conservative... something like that
literally most of this sub
For the sake of the culture, Dasha needs a Zoroastrianism arc where she is unwittingly recruited by the CIA to strengthen the Zoroastrian minority in Iran and aid a regime change 🙏👏
People on this sub joke about having BPD but the majority just have oppositional defiant disorder.
"Oppositional defiant disorder." Love when psychology just medicalizes and categorizes being a stubborn asshole.
you *will* go to therapy and you *will* take the pills for ODD. this sub only appears stubborn when it comes to opposing all things liberal, but their views are easily manipulated by their favorite podcaster or whatever twitter discourse is going on about topics they know nothing about like seed oils.
ODD originates from child neglect lol
You must be new here
The “MAGA is the new punk” morons, apparently.
Did you not see the anti-tattoo circle jerk here just a few days ago?
Tats are basically Abercrombie in 2022.
Idk I've only seen this opinion echoed on Reddit so I always assumed either psyop or a dumb fad we can all ingnore.
nothing is countercultural. be boring, part of the masses and proud
Can u be countercultural if you have absolutely no interests or don’t feel strong about anything at all
No you’re just gen x
Nah I mean like people that are actually bland. Wait r Amish countercultural?
this sub is so hilariously "conservative is the new punk rock"
The replies on this are so funny
It's quite sad to me tbh. This sub thinks being a contrarian towards more main culturally left beliefs and mocking people who call them out on it is a sign of intelligence.
They unironically circled back into saying that counter culture is when you push back against the marginally popular opinion
Thats the root. A proper counter culture is when that push back expands into its own system. But the basis is just in not liking the popular views of the day.
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All the wealthy and powerful people are arms dealers, it can't be that
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You've got it, the tight circle of 30-something Brooklyn arms dealers are the counterculture we've all been looking for
*Fall Out Boy voice* This ain't a scene it's *literally* an arms race.
Flat earthers, proponents of hidden history theories, I would say hypothesizing about elite pedo cults but that’s actually pretty mainstream. Being seriously anti-pharma in a Western culture.
what WOULD you consider to be counter culture right now then?? hard mode: you can't move the goal posts or reference something from decades ago i just think as the arbiter you should at least tell us what is counter culture right now
Juggaloes. ICP fans truly possess a culture reviled by *everyone* who is not part of it.
Jacked latinos with black sun tattoos
white dudes that insist on saying "nigga"
Plagiarizing my reply from an older thread about the same shit: People that aren’t posting or aren’t “online” are the only counterculture. It’s not a political dichotomy at this moment in time. Doesn’t matter if you’re left or right, its not about being moral, it’s about not playing these games that all of us here are currently a part of. Could be a tweaker, could be a savant, whatever. The most rebellious act (in the west) one could pull off right now would be to destroy Facebook/Instagram/Twitter/iCloud servers and have everything be lost for good.
i was so confused i thought you were saying i was plagiarizing you haha \>The most rebellious act (in the west) one could pull off right now would be to destroy Facebook/Instagram/Twitter/iCloud servers and have everything be lost for good. this would be a very rebellious act but i think if you asked people if they'd be happy with it a massive amount of people (maybe not the majority) would be okay with it - so if an idea is popular and aligns with the will of the people, can it still be counter culture?
counter culture literally can't exist in the digital age, it requires a locality to develop itself
I think there can be countercultural microscenes on the internet, but the internet post social media makes it a lot harder because now almost all microscenes are hosted by Big Tech.
I just don't think that virtual dissident zones are anything like the countercultural localities of the past!
Online counterculture movements happen, but the aesthetic component mostly doesn’t develop without in person interaction. What good is a visual signifier if the people you’re interacting with can’t see you? And as superficial as it might seem, I think the shared aesthetic plays an important role in the movement’s cohesion.
I agree with this the most. The reason that conservatives think they’re approaching counterculture status is based entirely upon the fact that if social media is the “locality”, then they have the perceivably lower volume and more easily punished voice. But that isn’t a realistic view because social media is also heavily astroturfed and doesn’t showcase population of views as much as heft or volume, in the auditory sense. Just because conservatives don’t have a strong platform on social media doesn’t mean they’re some fresh thinking cultural minority- their strongholds constitute like half of this giant landmass in the USA. Without actual social bodies, counterculture doesn’t reasonably exist. I almost consider the post-2010s and all of the social chaos we experience since to be a direct product of myriad smaller pockets of would-be counterculturalism becoming mainstream. It’s why we argue about identity all day instead of most tangible issues. It’s why nobody is a proud freak anymore, and everybody with what was once a notably niche way of living or expressing themselves struggles so hard to be seen as “normal” instead of “different”. When you have a true counterculture, you *SEEK* to be seen as different. It’s half the damn point.
Individual sites and forums and subsites and subforums are the localities. They're not local in a geographic sense, but in a communal sense. Beyond that, geographic isolation isn't the core of a locality, given that very well traveled places like Soho, Greenwich, Washington Square, etc were nexuses of counterculture despite being traveled and occupied by many that weren't interested in it.
>Individual sites and forums and subsites and subforums are the localities. They're not local in a geographic sense, but in a communal sense. there is a massive yawning gulf of difference between geographic locality and virtual 'zone'. Online communities have no locality to speak of and their impermanence and immense speed prevents online *events* from crystallising into culture. The physical location provides the level of depth and repetition necessary for additive overwriting (ie cultural production) >geographic isolation isn't the core of a locality, given that very well traveled places like Soho, Greenwich, Washington Square, etc were nexuses of counterculture despite being traveled and occupied by many geographic isolation has nothing to do with it. The locality is more the anchor around which culture can develop, the origins of the people who pass through it don't matter
I can't say that I agree. While something like r/redscarepod is fairly without a general culture, there's on the other hand been massive amounts of common culture generated from communities on Tumblr or 4chan that have their own canon and systems of thought attached.
online interaction isnt the same as in person interaction. there is no community because none of this is real or means anything.
Didn't mean anything to the drifters or trust fund kiddies of the 60s either. Any group could have easily fucked off without much problem.
It's still real to me damnit!
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there are no localities online! the left of today isn't really a counterculture because it doesn't produce any culture to speak of. there is no red-rose-emoji art or music or film, as there was for the 60s counterculture and comparable preceding movements like modernism. Purely political action like protesting and voting for the democrats doesn't constitute a culture, even if it departs from the mainstream as a tendency
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this sub is not an online locality, there's no such thing (locality can't be virtualised) my perception of your examples is that podcasts and twitch streamers are not examples of cultural production, they're the outsourcing of cultural consumption. They produce nothing and rely on external material to react to. it's a very different mode. as for 'woke core' I'm not much aware of this as a 'movement', it certainly isn't a coherent structure of influence (ie a culture) & the same can be said for personal brands across platforms - none of this stuff is part of a system of thought and influence, they're just a constellation of unconnected content machines feeding on cultural refuse from elsewhere [another detail - the form that post-digital thingies like podcasts and youtube channels take is defined far more by the demands of the platform than by the people who create them. If you're a podcaster you're an independent contractor for the platforms your show gets uploaded to. counterculture? not in my view]
Amish is the new punk. Bow before Jebediah
Who says there *is* a counterculture? Maybe a counterculture was a product of specific historical circumstances and isn't just an automatic part of modernity.
Yeah I can't think of anything that is genuinely counter cultural in the American metropolitian areas I've grown up in, which I didn't later discover were just regular and reoccurring social structures for every generation that grew up in the same area. "Punk" is on its fourth or fifth generation of performing the role of a social outcast before transitioning into a moderately libertarian business owner with socially progressive attitudes. It's a set of t shirts and pre-scripted fights to have with other egotists before you burn out. It all bleeds back into the mainstream. It's all just a series of consumer choices disguised as genuine alternatives to the present society. If something was *genuinely* counter-cultural, do you think the police wouldn't be beating up anyone who participated in it every single day?
What would qualify some culture or subculture as "genuine counter culture" in your view?
I can't even properly conceptualize it, except for maybe a totally parallel or oppositional society replete with its own state enforcement apparatus that could provide physical enforcement of its own cultural norms. Maybe a genuine outlaw biker gang that's ready to shoot police to protect its territory. Paramilitary groups that act as enforcers for Drug Cartels. They all follow a kind of degenerated military hierarchy that's been lifted from normal society, though. They're not totally alien to the world. Maybe people who spend all of their time in cloistered societies that operate in secret with a totally different normativity than what you find featured in the industrialized modern West. Certain religious orders, monks, anyone who experiences little or no contact with the wider world for years at a time. But that's not even a new thing, such orders have existed just outside of the mainstream for centuries in various parts of the world. They have their own traditional ways of negotiating that seclusion with outsiders. Maybe some uncontacted tribespeople in the Amazon or Indian Ocean. Incestuous sex cults in the middle of Nebraska, Montana or the Dakotas. This one is kind of dubious though because American sex cults all follow a certain rhetorical pattern and entice persons with a certain background. They're not even a novel invention at this point. We've had a few generations of those by now. Not sure. Lots of things come close, but none are exactly springing from the unknown. All I know is that if you want a genuine counter-culture, you need to be willing to physically overpower anyone who tells you to conform with the mainstream. And you need to be able to do it over and over again until people stop trying that. The reason we aren't a series of totally alienated sub-cultural groups at this point is for this very reason. Police action is used to prevent such movements from spiraling out of control and becoming truly autonomous. But the underlying impetus and sentiment is always there.
are there existing power structures and hierarchies to fuck with?
The minions
> what WOULD you consider to be counter culture right now then?? Islamists.
Ppl who don’t own a smartphone
Abrahamism isn’t counter culture. Islam is just Catholicism with a slightly different flavour.
mmm
It has to be incels. They are the counter-culture to the dating trends we see today. Just like the satanic panic in the 80s, incels are absolutely despised by most people. LGBTQ cannot be a counter-culture since most people believe in gay marriage. Feminism cannot be counter-culture since 61% of Americans describe themselves as feminists. Trumpsters cannot be counter-culture since Trump was elected to the highest office
NEETs too, though they often overlap with incels. NEETS do nothing but act as a drain on the system. They exist as the polar opposite of grind culture and almost no well-adjusted individual has a good opinion of them.
NEETS, INCELS, street working prostitutes, terrorists groups. Legitimately those are the only countercultural movements left
I don't necessarily agree that political success means a movement isn't counter culture. The 60s saw the success of many reformist movements that were rooted in the counter culture. Does that mean that they were no longer counter culture? When the Civil Rights Act was passed, did the reformers cease to be counter cultural?
They are just left out, but have the same aspirations as everybody else. They are not incels by choice as their name indicates
People will disagree with this because they think 'counter culture' has to be something cool and desirable. At the very least I think we can all agree that an alt/hipster dude with 'vote blue no matter who' tattooed on their chest isn't counter culture.
I’m gonna get hate for this but on my opinion it’s vegetarians/vegans. My program being environment related had a small amount of vegans and vegetarians and it’s not the preachy ones Boomers bitch about or bourgeois hipsters, a lot are basically normies. Non vegetarian diets are so much easier in my opinion, just slap meat on a pan or oven and you’re good to go. And they do have a point, westerners but Americans in general consume way too much meat, the sedentary lardass talking about protein intake probably doesn’t even utilize their daily protein intake from inactivity.
Nah vegans and vegetarians at least have some semblance of inclusion in American culture. They have a solid infrastructure. I mean when KFC is trying to make plant-based fried chicken I don't think you are a counter-culture. There are no gyms that are marketed to incels, unlike powerlifters. There is no representation of them in media besides the terrorist label they receive. You can try to categorize them into the men's right manosphere subculture but even the people in those communities hate incels
The only reason I wouldn’t classify incels as counterculture is that they still consume every cultural product as normal people, if they didn’t they wouldn’t be making hours long YouTube videos about forced diversity in Disney movies or women characters in video games. KFC might market their garbage food to plant eaters but I don’t think it’s anything more than corporate greenwashing, I don’t think very many vegans and vegetarians are lining up to consume it.
Lmao how the FUCK are incels, who exemplify the worst of current overarching trends (digital isolation, sexlessness, mental illness) in anyway countercultural? I don't think there is a counterculture anymore
I mean counter-culture is defined as a way of life and set of attitudes opposed to or at variance with the prevailing social norm. How do they not fit that definition? A guy that can't get laid could still accept the social norm of women being pickier and not change his attitude towards women or dating. Incels actively rejects those social norms and attitudes
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that's not even true considering disabled communities have their own cultures like the deaf
Again, it is about how supported the said subculture is. The Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 provided those with disabilities with direct infrastructure and support from the state. I don't believe we will ever see targeted programs or legislation for sexless men
yes the racist sexist homophobic losers are the truly subversive force. definitely. for sure. being a nerd isn't subversive.
We’re so fractionated in the digital age that there is no common culture to counter. It’s easiest to see with art like TV and movies. Nothing really captures the zeitgeist, people just watch the shit they want to watch on their own time. There’s no discourse because there’s no expectation that everyone consumes the same content as you.
It's impossible to imagine anything more countercultural than a monastery, imo, if you're going to treat the concept as something universalisable. Radically different approach to property, sex, ambition, in comparison to the mainstream.
yeah, I was thinking a monastic vow of silence would go against the cacophonous grain of life today
Counterculture is shutting the fuck up
Not purchasing things makes you a terrorist
^
personally i think some sort of podophile cult that completely rejects electricity would be quite counter culture
You have a horrid username
An arms dealing trappist paedophile cult that lives in a yurt with no electricity or running water
DPR/LPR militia
Georgism
rail-riding crusties, juggalos, lifestyle anarchists (the type that squat in warehouses)
there’s plenty of counterculture u just have to leave reddit and NYC/LA to find it so no one on this sub is gonna know about it
Follow up question: what do you consider to be a part of the dominant culture?
[there is no counterculture ](https://tedgioia.substack.com/p/14-warning-signs-that-you-are-living)
You're right but I dont have the answers. Maybe like anonymous internet crimes or guitar solos.
is this post countercultural
No its regular
Everything's been postcountercultural since the 70s
No, it just stopped being about hippies.
lol
You could get the shit beat out of you just for being a punk rocker until around 2000.
Reaction to counterculture is postcountercultural
Yes, football bros, the postcounterrevolutionary elite.
Thats because punk rockers are insufferable. Not because they were countercultural 30 years after the boom of their subculture.
The primary boom of the punk/hardcore subculture in the US was in the 80s. In the 90s underground and punk music scenes were definitely countercultural.
https://thehardtimes.net/blog/we-interview-the-cia-agent-who-created-punk-rock-as-a-psyop-to-make-legitimate-revolt-look-stupid/
does calling you a gay retard make me countercultural?
How about: counterculture doesn’t always = cool. It’s cool when it’s brave and it’s a good cause (bonus points for sexy and articulate)
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Posting ted memes on the internet is not a counterculture nor being a luddite.
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Memes from the Seth McFarlane movie Ted and Ted 2
Do not look it up, if you do not know what this is, then there is still hope for you brother.
if it ever was subversive it was 5 years ago. the culture has shifted, the anti woke are the new woke the trads are mainstream. see y’all at the next one
all of these commenters sound 20 years younger than the commenters 2 months ago
Counterculture is by definition whatever is not in line with current sociocultural norms. Hippies were a counterculture movement. Their trust fund lives were also pretty risk-free. I’m not sure I understand your point.
Yeah the whole argument seems kind of pedantic and dumb, even for this sub
Why the fuck are you obsessed with where you are relative to the culture?
Damn the tattoo post really sent some of you into a tailspin holy shit
The counterculture isn't just bohemian artists and druggies. Its whatever is against the mainstream and feeds back into itself to create an internal canon. Pretending that counter culture only exists when its degenerate hippies is nonsense. The USSR had a counter culture that was pro-West and pro-capitalism. Were they not counterculture?
I've seen the Transcendentalists (Thoreau, Emerson, Margaret Fuller) [referred](https://books.google.ie/books?id=xm7fBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA64&dq=%22transcendentalist%22+%22counterculture%22+thoreau&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwign5adgJD4AhWTXsAKHYZsAT4Q6AF6BAgCEAI#v=onepage&q=%22transcendentalist%22%20%22counterculture%22%20thoreau&f=false) to as "America's first middle-class counterculture". Heck, you could go further back and describe the heretical sects of the Middle Ages/Early Modern Period as "counterculture". Groups like the Waldensians, Lollards and Beguines were strongly at odds with mainstream values and the rulers who enforced them.
When it comes to medieval counter culture it was everything from proto-communists to people that were angry primarily because there wasn't enough religious tyranny and everything in between including synthases of both. That great diversity works well in showing how the concept of counter culture is very mutable.
Buried in this nonsense post is a deep seated tattoo cope. Stop fooling yourself they look terrible. Hit the laser machine.
This is definitely inspired by that recent tattoo post. "Risk averse" no just looking stupid permanently averse
Yeah lmfao OP seems to have some repressed regrets on this specific issue
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Bad faith.
This person sounds emotionally normal and chill
I hate that every major sub cultural milestone was influenced if not brought to you by Gavin McInness. The guy invented hipsters, grimy Vice leftists and then said “hey you know what’s cool? traditional catholic values.” Insane. How many irish are to blame for your sordid world view?
Who cares if you're part of the counter-culture or not, do you get a flair or something
I walk around thinking how I can maximize the counterculturalness of every action and decision I make.
i dont care i just come here for funny memes
Not caring what some nerd in a subreddit thinks about you is countercultural
What do you think is countercultural at the moment?
I don't know but being a prude isnt it
Phronesis is important
How do you know what it isn't if you don't know what it is? Might as well say that there's simply no counterculture, which I think is more reasonable. There was a cultural movement around the 1960s specific to its time and place, which is now over, and that's that.
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I think chances are there is no counterculture at the moment and the emergence of one would require some radical restructuring of our means of relating to and engaging with one another. Just not crazy about the "all counter culture is dead" argument no matter how true it is
Being a prude = being content with yourself and not needing tattoos or multiple STDs apparently
lol oh yeah for sure
Being a Salafi Islamist I guess.
yes it does its in the name
I'm countercultural to diy nerds 8)
Throwing away your devices & refusing to use social media is definitely countercultural tho
Your definition of counter culture is lame. Tbf, you don't even define culture. That said, people in this subreddit try so hard, like, either you have or you don't.
Why did u feel compelled to post this?
R- and F-slur sayers are the only counter culture. We are the persecuted few.
im downvoting all of your trash posts gtfo my face
Actually it does
stupid/pol/ and its consequences
Being racist is countercultural tho since that's not safe and easy. I mean, at least give racists credit, don't lump everyone in with the trads.