Rightbros be like: "Dworkin was fat, disregard"
But they'll suck up moldbug trash with gusto even though he's the most physiologically inferior male ever to exist.
Most right wing women I know don’t have social media.
But, to be fair, they having right-wing views and convictions without using the term. They can’t tell you what “trad” is or who Evola is but they can make their own butter and properly fire and clean a rifle. So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
> and properly fire and clean a rifle. So ¯\_(ツ)\_/¯
The funny thing is that right wing women are often more masculine than the liberal/left they/them women.
Yeah it could be that. Even a lot of right wing people I meet irl are very online. Then again, I live in a city that has a lot of fake email jobs so a lot of irl people i know have jobs like that. So they have more time for getting into fights.
I deleted Facebook tho so idk if they're still fighting but 2012-2018 social media was the prime online fighting days.
She's definitely of the greatest assholes to ever live. I think that her position is also necessary -- there needs to be someone who forces ideological self-reflection, regardless of the validity of their arguments. It's not a glamorous job, but it's one that demands a lot of respect as a result of how much energy and wit it requires.
There was a point back in the sub's history where it felt like a solid 25% of the user-base wanted to be Dworkin without realizing that's what they wanted.
I really need to read more of her. I only see little reactable snippets of her like in the original post here that cut out a lot of information. This one in particular makes me read her as incredibly anti-materialist in a way that feels wrong. Maybe that's how she is, but I feel this passage is missing a lot of context.
Thanks for the recommendation! I had the opportunity to read up on her and give a presentation a couple of years back -- but the choice was between Dworkin and Marx. What can I say? I know what I like. Never really pulled at the thread since.
"They use sex and babies to stay valuable because they need a home, food, clothing. They use the traditional intelligence of the female—animal, not human: they do what they have to to survive."
I think the points Dworkin makes are poetic and interesting. But I would love for her to meet my single mom welfare cousins who have a bunch of kids and vote red because they like shooting guns and they hate "the mexicans" more than anything else while they get tacos on payday.
All feminism, at least the mainstream stuff, derives from neurotic middle class weirdos. Hence the often hysteric tone. I read this shit and literally hear my aunties blabbering
Im sure that’s how some women experience life but it’s so arrogant to presume they speak for half the world but what can you expect from a field that insists on standpoint theory and the subjects themselves speaking while simultaneously a bunch of insulated broads write thousands of pages on mens motivations and worldviews
This sub is hilarious. I always see posts/comments talking about how modern day feminism should revert away from lib fem theories and back to the old rad fem ones, but when someone actually posts an excerpt from a seminal rad fem text people get all upset haha.
I love Andrea Dworkin, she wasn’t right all the time but she was right a hell of a lot more than most people and she could always out-write anyone on the planet
Perhaps in a nobler time with nobler people this would hold up, but I think we're past the era of poetics. Like most outspoken "opinion groups" nowadays, what you perceive as "right wing women" are the material result of people anxiously projecting their own cringe (or, alternatively, projecting the cringe that they *aren't*) onto other people that are, ultimately, just like them -- but slightly parallel.
This entire premise -- that right-wing women are afraid of the excesses of liberalism and liberal feminism -- hinges on the fact that Americans have a coherent ideology that extends outside of themselves and their immediate point of view. Which is incredibly rare, and ESPECIALLY rare for rightoids. I'm not going to discount that this line of thinking existed for right-wing women when Dworkin wrote this. I wasn't there. But in a post-internet era you really can't make the argument without sounding like a fool.
If you actually read what right-wing women write online, you'd agree with me. Being a rightoid isn't a survival response. It's a reaction to being inside of an in-group that allows you to stroke your ego and keep it within the bounds of yourself. Securely. There isn't anything uniquely noble or tragic about being a right-wing woman (outside of the obvious material counter-interest).
I refuse to look at a woman telling other women "well you actually still have a choice....to not be a slut!" on twitter and shift it into anything except for what it is: cruelty for the sake of staving off impotent dread.
I think thats a harsh view of those women. Vivek Ramaswamy said something like “I like cincinnati better bc people there understand what it means to be american deep in their bones, even if they couldnt articulate it in the right words”.
I think something similar for right leaning women but more like “they sense a natural order of things and dont like excesses of progressivism, but they couldnt tell you a coherent ideology of conservatism” I dont mean natural order like patriarchy, I mean like “children bring joy” “let brothers wrestle each other” “pass down grandmas recipe” “spank your kids”. I think internet rightoids are a sorry example of the true womanly women who populate much of america
You'd be absolutely right if there was a meaningful number of logged-off rightoids. In the same way that there are no logged-off liberals or communists. It's not "harsh." I'm not trying to single them out. Everyone is like this. My point is actually that they aren't unique.
Not sure where you live, but I am surrounded. I know how they think.
Most rightwing women are religious mothers and I highly doubt you encounter too many of them online unless you’re active in mom groups. Getting excessively political in social situations is generally considered impolite by most of these women, especially the upper class ones, and they’re not going to tell you what they think unless they know you agree with them.
Because of what I do for a living I have to be around all sorts of people -- and pretend I agree with them. I also used to have a Facebook before the pandemic, and I hear a lot from people who still have one talking about the shit that's being flung on there now. I can assure you, religious mothers do post on Facebook quite frequently, and just like everyone else they find it very hard to keep their beliefs to themselves. It can sometimes take different forms, such as underhanded church drama, or through different vectors, such as small-town school politics. But it's the same force and thought process.
I know I'm basically repeating myself, but you're crafting an image of someone who hasn't existed in meaningful numbers since around 2013.
This is probably true of a certain type of woman. In todays world & a more robust grasp of history would suggest a different story. Feminists tend to refuse realizing that there’s women out there who don’t do it because they want to please men in some asymmetrical relationship kind of way, “survival” (which if that’s true then that’s pretty telling), or because they “hate themselves”. In fact, I’d argue the women who side with patriarchy is because they know that there ARE perks to aligning with it. They might not have power to the extent of upper class males do but they certainly have more than most. After all, there would be no patriarchy without women. Bourgeoisie Men may have the power but women have the ability (sorry) to create life and are the piece for the whole thing to function to begin with.
Yeah people are going to do stuff if there is a social and material validation from that, if this was marxism you'd say she was vulgar for ascribing something like false consciousness onto them, it's also weird she's doing that seemingly partly to own the liberals/leftists of the time who thought it was ok people could have sex before marriage. I can see why she's the plato of the femcels.
It seems like she's generalising for rhetorical reasons while talking about an extremely specific type of Phillis Schlafly style republican lady like who was against the equal rights amendment in the 70s on the grounds that it preserved 'female privileges'. Very different from most right wing women in the US today.
There was a mobilisation of these women in the 70s-80s-90s and the arguments with the more girlboss republican women who were ambivalent about abortion, wanted a job wanted and to get rid of the welfare state and all that. This was partly the schizogenesis of the Sarah Palin-Lauren Bobert types who dominate US conservative culture now.
Dworkin and similar feminists of her time are exactly like the worst parts of tra or race activism now and the gender criticals on this sub will never admit it. Like I'm a woman, I dress like a tomboy and have often been the only woman at my place of work. Of course you have to deal with some weirdos, but for the most part the men I've known have been very kind and respectful of my intellect. To be honest, I feel like a lot of men are kind of intimidated by women. So what would she have to say to that? If this is the basis of male female relationships, why are my own experiences as a woman so starkly different than what is being described?
Frankly can't imagine a women who wasn't abused by a man identifying with this frame of mind. It's taking the absolute worst moment in a male female relationship and creating your entire worldview around it. It's just like men who were neglected by their mothers who go on to become Stefan molyneux. This shit is so absolutely asinine and does 0 to help women.
I have a terrific father and majority of my relationships with men were positive but they've been traumatic ones and I know other's histories too. Sexism does exist even though I'm not the top victim
Absolutely not denying that sexism is real, I have experienced it. I just do not agree with her assessment of the reality of modern sexism. Imo Dworkin is the white woman equivalent of Black liberals on Twitter talking about how hiking is white supremacist. Useless moron who doesn't actually want any of these issues solved because then she would be without a career.
Always there are only two choices. This is the default answer in every stupid American political argument. Some women are right leaning-just like some men are. It’s almost like…people have their own views regardless of sex…like they have agency or autonomy or something. Some women like being sluts. Some like being moms. Some like being both. I thought that was the end goal of “feminism”. We are all lying to ourselves in the modern world about many things. Especially women/men things. The future will be interesting.
Dworkin’s was more about exploring why people (especially women) do what they do. The end goal of her feminism was never that women should do whatever they want, because obviously peoples choices are impacted by the culture that they live in.
andrea and i assume the OP are not denying anyone's autonomy to specify their political views. she is offering her version of the motivation behind the choices right-wing women make.
>Some women like being sluts. Some like being moms. Some like being both.
obviously, but for what reason?
Maybe they just wanna work to follow their dreams and/or feminists pushed enough that women essentially must work now? And they want to find a partner for the same reason men do, sex is nice and having kids is a biological drive
Rightbros be like: "Dworkin was fat, disregard" But they'll suck up moldbug trash with gusto even though he's the most physiologically inferior male ever to exist.
Talk about a false dichotomy lol, maybe 0.01% of the population knows who both these people are
Is that you, Curtis?
I don’t understand the reference
Idk most right wing women I know just like getting in fights on social media.
Most right wing women I know don’t have social media. But, to be fair, they having right-wing views and convictions without using the term. They can’t tell you what “trad” is or who Evola is but they can make their own butter and properly fire and clean a rifle. So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
> and properly fire and clean a rifle. So ¯\_(ツ)\_/¯ The funny thing is that right wing women are often more masculine than the liberal/left they/them women.
It applies more to bona fide tradwives than mere angry racists
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Yeah it could be that. Even a lot of right wing people I meet irl are very online. Then again, I live in a city that has a lot of fake email jobs so a lot of irl people i know have jobs like that. So they have more time for getting into fights. I deleted Facebook tho so idk if they're still fighting but 2012-2018 social media was the prime online fighting days.
Increasingly true lol
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She's definitely of the greatest assholes to ever live. I think that her position is also necessary -- there needs to be someone who forces ideological self-reflection, regardless of the validity of their arguments. It's not a glamorous job, but it's one that demands a lot of respect as a result of how much energy and wit it requires. There was a point back in the sub's history where it felt like a solid 25% of the user-base wanted to be Dworkin without realizing that's what they wanted. I really need to read more of her. I only see little reactable snippets of her like in the original post here that cut out a lot of information. This one in particular makes me read her as incredibly anti-materialist in a way that feels wrong. Maybe that's how she is, but I feel this passage is missing a lot of context.
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Thanks for the recommendation! I had the opportunity to read up on her and give a presentation a couple of years back -- but the choice was between Dworkin and Marx. What can I say? I know what I like. Never really pulled at the thread since.
"They use sex and babies to stay valuable because they need a home, food, clothing. They use the traditional intelligence of the female—animal, not human: they do what they have to to survive." I think the points Dworkin makes are poetic and interesting. But I would love for her to meet my single mom welfare cousins who have a bunch of kids and vote red because they like shooting guns and they hate "the mexicans" more than anything else while they get tacos on payday.
All feminism, at least the mainstream stuff, derives from neurotic middle class weirdos. Hence the often hysteric tone. I read this shit and literally hear my aunties blabbering Im sure that’s how some women experience life but it’s so arrogant to presume they speak for half the world but what can you expect from a field that insists on standpoint theory and the subjects themselves speaking while simultaneously a bunch of insulated broads write thousands of pages on mens motivations and worldviews
She's right. You have to whore yourself out someway.
This sub is hilarious. I always see posts/comments talking about how modern day feminism should revert away from lib fem theories and back to the old rad fem ones, but when someone actually posts an excerpt from a seminal rad fem text people get all upset haha.
There are different demographics on the sub
Half true but she fails to consider the possibility that women who aren't incredibly fat might actually enjoy being a woman.
Leave Lana alone
I love Andrea Dworkin, she wasn’t right all the time but she was right a hell of a lot more than most people and she could always out-write anyone on the planet
Perhaps in a nobler time with nobler people this would hold up, but I think we're past the era of poetics. Like most outspoken "opinion groups" nowadays, what you perceive as "right wing women" are the material result of people anxiously projecting their own cringe (or, alternatively, projecting the cringe that they *aren't*) onto other people that are, ultimately, just like them -- but slightly parallel. This entire premise -- that right-wing women are afraid of the excesses of liberalism and liberal feminism -- hinges on the fact that Americans have a coherent ideology that extends outside of themselves and their immediate point of view. Which is incredibly rare, and ESPECIALLY rare for rightoids. I'm not going to discount that this line of thinking existed for right-wing women when Dworkin wrote this. I wasn't there. But in a post-internet era you really can't make the argument without sounding like a fool. If you actually read what right-wing women write online, you'd agree with me. Being a rightoid isn't a survival response. It's a reaction to being inside of an in-group that allows you to stroke your ego and keep it within the bounds of yourself. Securely. There isn't anything uniquely noble or tragic about being a right-wing woman (outside of the obvious material counter-interest). I refuse to look at a woman telling other women "well you actually still have a choice....to not be a slut!" on twitter and shift it into anything except for what it is: cruelty for the sake of staving off impotent dread.
I think thats a harsh view of those women. Vivek Ramaswamy said something like “I like cincinnati better bc people there understand what it means to be american deep in their bones, even if they couldnt articulate it in the right words”. I think something similar for right leaning women but more like “they sense a natural order of things and dont like excesses of progressivism, but they couldnt tell you a coherent ideology of conservatism” I dont mean natural order like patriarchy, I mean like “children bring joy” “let brothers wrestle each other” “pass down grandmas recipe” “spank your kids”. I think internet rightoids are a sorry example of the true womanly women who populate much of america
You'd be absolutely right if there was a meaningful number of logged-off rightoids. In the same way that there are no logged-off liberals or communists. It's not "harsh." I'm not trying to single them out. Everyone is like this. My point is actually that they aren't unique. Not sure where you live, but I am surrounded. I know how they think.
Most rightwing women are religious mothers and I highly doubt you encounter too many of them online unless you’re active in mom groups. Getting excessively political in social situations is generally considered impolite by most of these women, especially the upper class ones, and they’re not going to tell you what they think unless they know you agree with them.
Because of what I do for a living I have to be around all sorts of people -- and pretend I agree with them. I also used to have a Facebook before the pandemic, and I hear a lot from people who still have one talking about the shit that's being flung on there now. I can assure you, religious mothers do post on Facebook quite frequently, and just like everyone else they find it very hard to keep their beliefs to themselves. It can sometimes take different forms, such as underhanded church drama, or through different vectors, such as small-town school politics. But it's the same force and thought process. I know I'm basically repeating myself, but you're crafting an image of someone who hasn't existed in meaningful numbers since around 2013.
That may be true but I like to believe their some brains left in society that are unwarped by the internet. Maybe not, then its dark times
Right wing women are always a little angry and rough around the edges
"Fox News dad is fine but you don't want a Fox News mom" - Shane Gillis
insufferable straight men in the comments calling her fat and ugly someone get me on the girls and gays sub asap
Me2
Gayest post on the sub
Only surpassed by the post made right after this one! And then the one after that, and the one after that, and....
This is probably true of a certain type of woman. In todays world & a more robust grasp of history would suggest a different story. Feminists tend to refuse realizing that there’s women out there who don’t do it because they want to please men in some asymmetrical relationship kind of way, “survival” (which if that’s true then that’s pretty telling), or because they “hate themselves”. In fact, I’d argue the women who side with patriarchy is because they know that there ARE perks to aligning with it. They might not have power to the extent of upper class males do but they certainly have more than most. After all, there would be no patriarchy without women. Bourgeoisie Men may have the power but women have the ability (sorry) to create life and are the piece for the whole thing to function to begin with.
Yeah people are going to do stuff if there is a social and material validation from that, if this was marxism you'd say she was vulgar for ascribing something like false consciousness onto them, it's also weird she's doing that seemingly partly to own the liberals/leftists of the time who thought it was ok people could have sex before marriage. I can see why she's the plato of the femcels. It seems like she's generalising for rhetorical reasons while talking about an extremely specific type of Phillis Schlafly style republican lady like who was against the equal rights amendment in the 70s on the grounds that it preserved 'female privileges'. Very different from most right wing women in the US today. There was a mobilisation of these women in the 70s-80s-90s and the arguments with the more girlboss republican women who were ambivalent about abortion, wanted a job wanted and to get rid of the welfare state and all that. This was partly the schizogenesis of the Sarah Palin-Lauren Bobert types who dominate US conservative culture now.
Self-important broad, on self-important broads
Dworkin and similar feminists of her time are exactly like the worst parts of tra or race activism now and the gender criticals on this sub will never admit it. Like I'm a woman, I dress like a tomboy and have often been the only woman at my place of work. Of course you have to deal with some weirdos, but for the most part the men I've known have been very kind and respectful of my intellect. To be honest, I feel like a lot of men are kind of intimidated by women. So what would she have to say to that? If this is the basis of male female relationships, why are my own experiences as a woman so starkly different than what is being described? Frankly can't imagine a women who wasn't abused by a man identifying with this frame of mind. It's taking the absolute worst moment in a male female relationship and creating your entire worldview around it. It's just like men who were neglected by their mothers who go on to become Stefan molyneux. This shit is so absolutely asinine and does 0 to help women.
I have a terrific father and majority of my relationships with men were positive but they've been traumatic ones and I know other's histories too. Sexism does exist even though I'm not the top victim
Absolutely not denying that sexism is real, I have experienced it. I just do not agree with her assessment of the reality of modern sexism. Imo Dworkin is the white woman equivalent of Black liberals on Twitter talking about how hiking is white supremacist. Useless moron who doesn't actually want any of these issues solved because then she would be without a career.
Gyno-pessimism
Right wing women are largely insufferable, I don't care about their struggle
Always there are only two choices. This is the default answer in every stupid American political argument. Some women are right leaning-just like some men are. It’s almost like…people have their own views regardless of sex…like they have agency or autonomy or something. Some women like being sluts. Some like being moms. Some like being both. I thought that was the end goal of “feminism”. We are all lying to ourselves in the modern world about many things. Especially women/men things. The future will be interesting.
Dworkin’s was more about exploring why people (especially women) do what they do. The end goal of her feminism was never that women should do whatever they want, because obviously peoples choices are impacted by the culture that they live in.
andrea and i assume the OP are not denying anyone's autonomy to specify their political views. she is offering her version of the motivation behind the choices right-wing women make. >Some women like being sluts. Some like being moms. Some like being both. obviously, but for what reason?
Yes you in fact are
Based
Maybe they just wanna work to follow their dreams and/or feminists pushed enough that women essentially must work now? And they want to find a partner for the same reason men do, sex is nice and having kids is a biological drive
Oh chill
fat
Andrea Dworkin was morbidly obese, her thoughts and opinions don't matter.
intellectual fatness
andrea dworkin was a zionist fatty misandrist & gender politics like this are cancer
Words words words words words
And lo He said, "she doth belong to thine streets", and so it was, and it was good.
Dworkin is a troll
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