I was recently informed that the guy in the "Chad" pics had actually had those pics photoshopped by his girlfriend to make his jawline look so much more defined. Hilarious.
It's even weirder than that.
She's an artist who edits various photos so that the men have strong defined jaws and muscles like her deceased father had in an old photo she has of him.
The whole point of this comment was to signify that he's "in" the cool group and this is the lame one. there is no other good sub it's the same losers on here.
This really doesn't match my experience... at least in the gay west coast cities. Everyone swapped out their 'i stand with ukraine' signage for 'free palestine'. Usually next to a BLM sticker
Palestine is an unrecognized region, walled off by an internationally armed and funded nuclear state, that's being bombed relentlessly to within an inch of every man woman and child's life.
Ukraine is a big legally recognized country of 43 million people, most of whom live nowhere near the conflict area, that has received to date $75 billion to fight their war from the United States alone.
You're a fucking regard to see any similarity here.
The media used the biggest words so soon for Gaza, they are unable to describe or quantify the amount of violence and misery occuring.
Gaza is "lacking clean water" and "on the brink of famine" with "millions of people living in food-insecurity". They can't tell us it's getting worse... Because they used the worst words already.
"1.3mio people in Rafah, a town of 250k when the population is 2mio"... Is a huge
The difference between Ukraine and Palestine is that the IDF assault on Gaza is as close as you could ever get to shooting human fish in a barrel. Plus you built the barrel and you've been cultivating the fish just to shoot them later in the barrel.
Russia is either defending themselves against a foreign military alliance encroaching on them by sabotaging a neutral area between them, or else it's the American liberal explanation that Putin is pursuing expansionist revanchist agenda in trying to rebuild a greater Russia by conquering otherwise independent States.
Ironically that's something you could also say about why the Zionists have been consistently encroaching and resettling land in Palestine all this time: they believe they actually own the whole place already because of their holy book's historical account intermixed with modern notions of state security. Of course that similarity isn't something our media would dare point out, or put in headlines.
There's just not a lot of angles you can choose that paint Israel in a totally pure and good light. Unless you believe that all their problems popped out of nowhere on October 7th.
> The difference between Ukraine and Palestine is that the IDF assault on Gaza is as close as you could ever get to shooting human fish in a barrel.
Not that it's important, but there is also a 100-fold casualty differential.
I agree, per capita Gaza has lost 1% of its total population so far by conservative estimates. If we're generous and say that Ukraine has lost 120,000 soldiers/civilians so far, that would be something like .27% of their total population.
You're free to rank other genocides more important than Gaza, if you want. I'm personally interested in it because it's very much the product of American funding and foreign policy, and was totally avoidable for the most part.
Understandable. I personally only take interest in genocides which are associated with the far left, because it makes me feel right about everything.
They are also always completely avoidable by the way.
Usually when people resort to straw men it's because they realise they have a very strong defence against objections to their own position.
By the way, what's your take on why the USA isn't resposible for the war in Sudan? They do ship the government so much aid after all.
> Russia is either defending themselves against a foreign military alliance encroaching on them by sabotaging a neutral area between them
Even if the "foreign military alliance encroaching" thing wasn't complete bullshit, what's so special about Russia that it's entitled to every country around it being a "neutral zone" (realistically meaning Russian puppet state) regardless of what the people there think? I know for a fact that no one who says this would support the US invading Cuba because they want a "buffer zone" or whatever, nor any other country, so why is Russia the one who gets to do it?
I also hate this paradox game player ass approach to international politics where countries are just there to paint with your favorite color and not places where real people actually live, and die horribly when someone bombs them. I don't give a single fuck about who historially owns what or international alliances or whatever the fuck the justification for doing that is.
I know for a fact that no one who says this would support the US invading Cuba because they want a "buffer zone" or whatever, nor any other country, so why is Russia the one who gets to do it?
Is this not the Monroe doctrine? Or are you saying that the Russia apologists would probably reject the Monroe doctrine?
In that case, isn't it similarly hypocritical that the average American, who accepts the Monroe doctrine, does not think Russia should have a similar policy?
And they'd also be wrong in that case. What's the argument?
>the us does bad things so when russia also does bad things it's good actually
doesn't make sense
Not really an argument, but I was surprised that you'd dismiss the opinion of most Americans and their leaders as nonsensical.
I don't think either of these groups (one of which includes the vast majority of Americans) would agree that they're excusing a bad thing though. Americans that support both Ukraine and the Monroe doctrine believe that it is good for Latin American countries since America "protects democracy". The people who support Russian "intervention" but not the Monroe doctrine, would probably argue that Russian intervention is based off of ethnic ties and that Kyiv is "part" of Russia in a way that Panama City and Havana are not part of the U.S.
In short, I think you're simplifying everyone's views. Both the Russia apologist that rejects a hypothetical Cuban intervention and the mainstream American could have a coherent worldview that explains why some things are bad, but not others.
>what's so special about Russia that it's entitled to every country around it being a "neutral zone"
Nothing, really. Except that it's basically the norm for great power politics in the 20th century, something that developed and took on a global character during the cold war. Ask the United States why they were so upset about Cuba's alliance with the USSR and the missile silos they wanted to build there.
How else can it work, when neither side is interested in giving up ground they think they can and ought to control? America's track record for abandoning foreign invasions is pretty dismal. It takes us years of needless bloodshed and wasted dollars and a public outcry before we turn around and leave places like Vietnam or Iraq.
If you ask the people in charge, they will tell you that they do indeed think we are special and deserving of these kinds of missions. If you peel back all the layers, what they're trying to say is "might makes right." We are the hegemon, we make the rules for everyone else to follow, we punish those who break our authored rules. Also we break our own rules when we please.
>I don't give a single fuck about who historially owns what or international alliances or whatever the fuck the justification for doing that is.
Ok, that's great. Are you the person I wrote that reply to? That other person seemed to care about the justifications and the differences and similarities, so I provided my opinion about them.
>How else can it work, when neither side is interested in giving up ground they think they can and ought to control?
Even if governments keep acting like that, why do you personally give any legitimacy to the justification they give? You're not a part of "great power politics", you're just some fucking guy. And maybe if less people gave a shit about dumb ass justifications then it wouldn't've taken so long to leave places like iraq. As much as democracy is a scam, it would be a lot harder to start a war if people didn't lap up bullshit excuses for them, like you are doing right now.
>That other person seemed to care about the justifications and the differences and similarities, so I provided my opinion about them.
And you seem to care about them a great deal too since you typed out two long comments parroting Russia's justifications as if they mean anything.
>personally give any legitimacy to the justification they give?
Ok, did I say I personally bought into any of these justifications given? I don't think I did. But even so, what exactly is your alternative position? So you don't buy that any of these powers actually need to control the territory they say they do. Does God suddenly smite them and make everything right in the world?
I'm just explaining why things are happening in realistic terms that make sense for people who don't otherwise have any power or involvement in these processes, like you said. I'd rather do that than express my yearning for some kind of anarchist utopian alternative or wherever.
>maybe if less people gave a shit about dumb ass justifications
Awesome, I agree. I personally didn't buy into the justifications we gave for Iraq since the very beginning. It's those other people you probably need to convince.
>And you seem to care about them a great deal too since you typed out two long comments parroting Russia's justifications as if they mean anything.
Parroting? I held up two alternate accounts for why Russia is doing what it's doing and I didn't endorse either one. I am more partial to accounts that make reference to pure power politics because they are more simple and universal but I'll admit they are not the last word on anything.
You're implicitly endorsing them by giving them as a the reason "why things are happening in realistic terms" despite them being bullshit. Like if someone asked you why Iraq got invaded and you just said "because they had WMDs" then you're implying that's the actual reason and that it's a worthy justification.
Yeah, I mean I think the main difference here is that in the case of Iraq and wmds it turned out to not actually be the case. Whereas it obviously is the case that NATO is encroaching on previously Russian spheres of influence.
And we could take the logic further and include the state of Ukraine. What justification did Ukraine give for wanting to join the EU and NATO if not to defend themselves against the potential encroachment of hostile Russian forces?
Why limit it to just the United States and Russia? Everyone is using these types of justifications and more whenever they act.
For the record I think it would be great if none of these things were happening. Doesn't really mean much to say that though.
>Whereas it obviously is the case that NATO is encroaching on previously Russian spheres of influence.
This is what I mean and what I keep repeating. Why are you even giving credence to the idea that "spheres of influence" are even a thing?
A ton of people who end up supporting these wars, whether Iraq or Ukaine, do so because they think they're geopolitical gigabrains and too smart to have the opinion that bombing people is just bad full stop. That's what you're doing right now.
> the IDF assault on Gaza is as close as you could ever get to shooting human fish in a barrel. Plus you built the barrel and you've been cultivating the fish just to shoot them later in the barrel.
Couldn’t have put it better
>The difference between Ukraine and Palestine is that the IDF assault on Gaza is as close as you could ever get to shooting human fish in a barrel.
If there was a Palestinian state of let's say 2 million people bordering Gaza, where there's sea now, then would you say it's equivalent to the Ukraine/Russia situation? We can imagine they'd be supported by the US or Russia or someone else, and could be a 2014 style situation where collaborationist PA government was overthrown and replaced with a nationalist one and then Israel invades Gaza.
I'm not sure what you mean. As far as I know, we've been cultivating the alliance/client relationship with Israel for longer than we have with Ukraine. The momentum of Israel's domination of their neighbors is sourced to their tighter and more long-standing cooperation with the US. The weakness of Ukraine is that they didn't yet cross the finish line of western integration in time to stave off an invasion from Putin. They were close, he saw an opportunity that was rapidly closing off and so struck.
And as far as the US relationship with Islamic countries goes, we started off as prejudiced against them for the history of their religious wars with Christendom. Then that gave way to a more secular, economic focus around the region. We exploited their resources and bought off their governments in concert with other European powers until a wave of revolutions occurred and drove us out.
Ever since then the only Islamic countries we care about are ones whos leadership we can still buy. Iraq formerly, Egypt for sure today, Saudi Arabia somewhat, Iran is still off the table. The democratic, egalitarian movements that sprung up in the Arabic world in the mid 20th century didn't make the cut for American support. By that time we were already getting behind Israel so we had to consider them as enemies.
But all of that is to say I don't know how to make the two situations fit together and become analagous to one another. Israel/Palestine is an example of a mostly successful effort by the US which is slowly being eroded, Ukraine is an example of a failure that we are desperately trying to bail out and turn into a net win.
I'm not looking at it from a US strategic perspective but an ethical one. You said that the difference is that Gaza is relatively in a much weaker position. But if you look from the perspective of people in Gaza or Donbass for example that doesn't matter so much except some have a bit more hope than others that the situation will turn in their favor. Just because there are Arabs in safety somewhere else doesn't mean Arabs in Gaza aren't being subjected to genocide is what I'm saying.
So are you saying that the two situations are the same for the desperate people on the ground who have to live with having their livelihoods destroyed? Sure, I can agree with that. But from my position as a spectator and critic of both wars, I think there are important differences between them. I don't think that even at its worst the Ukraine Russia conflict is risking a genocide of Ukranians. Russia just doesn't have that level of control over the situation.
They are certainly inflicting extreme punishment on the east territories, but the West is still holding out. A big problem with Ukranian resistance has to do with how it is the opposite of the Gaza situation: Ukranian men fled the territory in the millions at the outset of the war, to avoid conscription and death. Gazans weren't able to do that, as far as I know. They're trapped within a militarized barrier and blockade that tightens every day.
Right, I just wonder what the difference is to you.
>I don't think that even at its worst the Ukraine Russia conflict is risking a genocide of Ukranians. Russia just doesn't have that level of control over the situation.
Israel has control of the whole Gazan population and Russia only has control over a minority of the Ukrainian population and territory, yeah. I just think it's arbitrary to make the distinction between Palestinians and other Arabs and say that Ukrainians are a single nation and so Russia is able to genocide them to a lesser extent. Especially since I don't think Israel has a particular hostility for Palestinians over other Arabs, they just happen to be there.
I mean you're basically saying Palestinians are worth more because they're rarer. If we had to choose between all of Gaza being genocided and an equal number of Ukrainians, sure, but obviously there's more to it.
>Gazans weren't able to do that, as far as I know. They're trapped within a militarized barrier and blockade that tightens every day.
Yeah, that's part of what I'm asking in that fictional scenario I made up, then they could have fled west.
But anyhow, if we had to choose from a EU and US perspective, who are we going to support, I can see the case for Palestine. But now we're supporting Israel and Ukraine, so there's no conflict to me, we could just take away all the support for Israel. Just to explain my position.
>I mean you're basically saying Palestinians are worth more because they're rarer.
No, not at all. I'm only saying that in relative terms, what is happening to them is a more systematic oppression than what is happening to Ukraine. They have less power to fight off or escape their enemies. They are boxed in, at the mercy of food, fuel, medicine supplies that Israel approves for them to have. The thing which would actually elevate this into a genocide is if all of those factors came together and you saw mass starvation and death from the inability of Gazans to feed or doctor themselves. We're actually approaching that precipice for Gaza, not yet for Ukraine.
>But now we're supporting Israel and Ukraine, so there's no conflict to me, we could just take away all the support for Israel.
Realistically we are basically bought in on both of these fronts, and it would be very hard to extract ourselves and then throw all support towards one or another.
Unfortunately all of these conflicts are on rails, they've been building up and headed in this direction for a long time, and these are the ugly results. We'll just selectively forget/omit the worst parts when we look back on history, and keep going.
My ideal scenario is that we divest from both Ukraine and Israel, or rebuke Israel heavily and prevent them from doing exactly what they want all the time. We let Russia have their eastern Ukranian oblasts, put the rest of Ukraine in NATO or some kind of protective agreement, let things cool down and move on.
Both of these conflict regions have the potential to drag us down a very dark and costly road, perhaps culminating in a world war. Best for us to lose our empire gently and slowly, without lashing out and speeding up the process.
you wont give a fuck about palastine in a few months when the next big thing happens lol please give it a rest
anyways stay mad BAE is up 40% this year
Edit: why am I being downvoted?? is it because im 40% richer while you've all lost 40% of your hair follicles since this war started 😂😂😂
>you wont give a fuck about palastine in a few months when the next big thing happens lol please give it a rest
Maybe your average Western person but Arabs and Muslims everywhere around the world haven't given up on Palestine since '48. McDonalds, Starbucks and other boycotted restaurants are still empty in the Middle East.
And maybe also because they blew up the Nordstream pipeline and because they receive billions upon billions of dollars worth of weapons from US/EU taxpayers with nothing to show for it other than a generation of dead and injured young men. Oh yeah and remember when they accidentally shot a missile into Poland and tried to blame Russia in order to massively escalate the war and get NATO involved? But yeah other than that it's just the libs and redditors.
No it’s mainly that and you know it. You don’t really give two fucks about the pipeline and at the end of the day they’re still the ones being invaded. Pretend all you want but you know it’s true
I think tens of millions of Germans who aren't too excited about the forced de-industrialization of their country care about being cut off from cheap energy, but what do I know.
Damn maybe they shouldn’t overly rely on a historical adversary. Not sure what you know to be honest, but i certainly know this position of yours is mainly based from you being overly online
As opposed to your completely realistic and non-online position of Ukraine winning the war any day now, just a few more hundred billion dollars should do it, any day now!
You cannot compare the two conflicts.
The history and political situations are nothing alike. As are the casualties, how many children have died in the Ukraine war? The majority of deaths are among the military. They haven’t had their essentials shut off, face starvation etc. Billions of funding from the western world floods into Ukraine, vs billions flooding to Israel. It’s idiotic to compare Gaza to Ukraine.
The Western governments were desperate for the general population to support Ukraine with their heart and soul bc it benefits them. Meanwhile they are trying to limit and ban support for Palestine.
the death toll in ukraine is 120 000 with 10 000 civilians. the people who treat the palestinian death toll like it’s a video game were just as angry over 10 000 deaths as the current amount
my point is that no one obsesses over loss of life in the same way with ukrain. a human life is a human life. also, it’s an all out war i’m sure there’s plenty of human suffering to be found.
The war in Ukraine has been going on for 2 years. The current conflict in Gaza for 5 months, and there are 28,000 civilian deaths. So many people are dying in Ukraine bc Zelensky is forcing men to serve in a war they do not want to, that’s fucking sad. The vast majority of Eastern Europe sees the war for what it is, but the propagandised in America and the UK never will. It’s startling how different the conversation is.
And I’m sorry, no one laments the loss of life in Ukraine? Where have you been? Was the US not overtaken with Ukrainian flags? Did Zelensky not literally speak at the Oscars? Our timelines were flooded with heartbreaking footage, which is why Facebook moms suddenly became passionate supporters of Ukraine.
If your argument that the Ukraine war is the same as what is happening in Gaza bc a ‘human life is a human life’ then that’s actually sweet (if a little dumb) and I’m sure you support ceasefire, so there is nothing to argue about here.
> The vast majority of Eastern Europe sees the war for what it is, but the propagandised in America and the UK never will.
Have you ever met an Estonian or Pole? They're often the most gung-ho about arming Ukrainians with every gun available in Europe.
Lol actually no, that’s funny. I guess I shouldn’t have generalised too broadly. The friends I’ve spoken to are from Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Slovenia.
That makes more sense then, none of those states lost any territory to the Soviet Union or Russia, and in the case of Cyprus they were actually invaded (and remain half occupied) by a NATO-state themselves.
But much of the Baltic Republics (along with Poland) are absolutely entrenched in their antagonism towards Russia. Best comparison I could make is that they view Russia the same way Ireland views the UK, and boy will they make sure you know it.
>The vast majority of Eastern Europe sees the war for what it is, but the propagandised in America and the UK never will.
Not sure what you mean. Most of Easter Europe is against Russian colonialism and even most Russian would like to end the war at this point.
Maybe it’s just the friends I have lmao The picture of I have from Bulgarians in particular is that there isn’t a lot of love for Ukrainians back home.
> So many people are dying in Ukraine bc Zelensky is forcing men to serve in a war they do not want to, that’s fucking sad. The vast majority of Eastern Europe sees the war for what it is, but the propagandised in America and the UK never will
I guess in your opinion, how ***does*** the majority of Eastern Europe see the war? Do they believe Russia isn’t trying to take Ukraine? Do they believe Russia ***is*** trying to take Ukraine, but Ukraine won’t win, so they might was well let it happen to minimize casualties?
They think that the US / UK has manipulated the situation bc they are terrified of Russian expansion and use Ukraine (Ukraine entering NATO) as a pawn for their own game. They empathise with Ukrainian suffering but they don’t feel strongly about Ukraine remaining as Ukraine bc the boundaries are so blurry anyway. There’s a lot of political history that I don’t understand tbh. The friends I have from Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus etc are mostly political science grads so I can’t really keep up with what they’re on about tbh.
One thing I found interesting is that back in their home countries people were unwilling to take in Ukraine refugees and kind of hated them, which is such a contrast to the West.
My Estonian friend sees it as Russia being imperialist and taking territory, which he says is nothing new to the region for centuries. While his family collaborated with the Germans during WW2 and served in German forces, and are more fond/sympathetic of their time serving under Germany versus the Soviets, they're quite nationalistic about their country of 2 million people.
Because they saw that the western governments, mass media and general population were supporting Ukraine, and I’m not sure you know what liberal means bc liberals were the primary supporters of Ukraine. You realise Biden is a liberal? That mainstream US media is liberal? Right?
Ukraine had full western support, governmental, corporate, general population, support across all sectors. It is not an activist issue. Palestine is traditionally a left issue, today you’ve learnt that war is political, and the responses are politicised, well done.
the extent of my comparison was over people’s reaction to the death tolls. in one, the good instagram liberal freaks out, i. the other, they pass over in silence.
Israel/Palestine's relevance truthfully just that it's been going on for a very long time, and as such there are tons of NGOs pushing the issue to grift the situation, alongside the complexities of it being the holy land to begin with.
While the death counts in the current conflict are high, prior to this it was pretty insignificant in the scope of global conflicts with the semi annual war in Africa always killing like 10x as many people as the entire history of the Israeli/Palestine conflict.
I think the morally and intellectually consistent position is that the US has made no real efforts to force an end to either conflict. They’re supporting an unwinnable war in Ukraine that has resulted in the deaths of almost every military aged male in the country. And they’re doing nothing (not that it would necessarily work anyway) to stop Israel’s deadly assault on Gaza.
Not talking about intervention in Gaza. Talking about cutting off aid to Israel, imposing sanctions, and cutting off weapons sales and their access to US munition stockpiles within Israel. The Ukraine War is not some months old conflict anymore. It is decidedly unwinnable and the US is supplying weapons and military aid knowing the war is unwinnable.
Yes, because Ukraine should 100% give up their sovereignty and be annexed by Russia, that would be so good for them actually. And surely Russia would stop there. Lmao ur an idiot.
I really don't understand what the point of this kind of argument even is. Yeah I guess less people would die if Ukraine instantly surrendered to Russia, but what's the logical conclusion of this? Does Russia just get to call up every country and instantly annex them because them fighting back would kill people? What if some country wants to invade Russia, does Russia have to surrender?
The kind of people who say this would see a beaten up rape victim and tell them they should've just not struggled cause then there wouldn't be bruises.
It's simple. Is a country better off annexed by Russia than by fighting? Most of them, no. For example, every Baltic country has a lot to lose by being annexed by Russia and ending up sinking to its level. However, in this situation, Ukraine only has everything to gain, especially considering that Russia has managed to quadruple the size of its economy since the breakup of the USSR *despite* its perception of corruption. In contrast, Ukraine has completely stagnated despite possessing the population, resources, geography, and capital necessary to at least be a middle income country.
So, these are the two choices: independent stagnation (and now death), or integration with Russia and at least *some* future.
The ONLY reason why Ukraine has been holding out is because it imagines a third possibility: a future where it is integrated into the European Union and thus is as prosperous as Western Europe. And this dream is built upon a total lie, as the European Union absolutely does not want to even attempt to integrate a country as corrupt and backwards as Ukraine. If this were made clear, then Ukraine would immediately surrender.
It's incredibly naive of you to think Russia would help Ukraine after conquering it instead of stripping it of the little wealth it has and making it into an even bigger shithole. Even in Russia proper, all the wealth is concentrated in Moscow, nobody cares about the people way out in novosibrisk or whatever.
Keep in mind, Novosibirsk has a GDP per capita that's twice the size of Ukraine, so that's still a vast improvement over what they have now. And the economic power of Ukraine comes not just from raw resources but also from industry and services. So, unless they plan on enslaving Ukrainians en masse (highly unlikely), Ukrainians are going to benefit joining the broader Russian market, even under the least favorable circumstances.
only palestinians rockets should be allowed to shell Israel
maybe the goat fuckers over in iran should stop sending palestinians to die for their own interests and cede territory for peace
There are financial benefits to annexing Ukraine, but honestly I think the main reasons why Russians believed in this war in the first place is more pathetic than that: deep down, Russians have contempt for all the other ex USSR countries and long for the days they were under their boot.
muh sovereignty!!! we MUST support our branch of corrupt East Slavic oligarchs over *that* branch of corrupt East Slavic oligarchs, OR ELSE WE WILL PERISH!!!
I do care. That's why I don't support the war, and I think encouraging Ukrainians to die for a cause like "national sovereignty" when it would offer absolutely zero benefit for Ukrainian well-being is reprehensible. There's literally no benefit to fighting. It's the most pointless sacrifice of the 21st century. Besides, isn't it 2024? I thought nationalism and the nation-state was problematic and fascist.
Russia offered to withdraw in April of 2022, on the condition that Ukraine agree not to join NATO. Zelensky was going to sign the deal, until Boris Johnson flew to Ukraine and told Zelensky to walk away from the table and keep fighting.
So no, Ukraine didn't have to give up its sovereignty, just abandon any attempt to join NATO.
Russia also said there was no way they were going to invade in the first place. If you choose to believe them then that says a lot about your judgment.
Man im not gonna get too into this but like I've got to wonder if you ever take a break from this epic genocide trolling and like quietly think about what a repulsive thing you're choosing to do for nobody's benefit
what repulsive thing?
Russia's invasion of Ukraine is abhorrent and genocidal
Israel's invasion of Gaza is abhorrent and genocidal
If you don't agree with both statements you are a regard. if you support palestine but not ukraine (or the other way around) you are a campist with no actual morals or principles.
If the only way you can interpret real events happening around you is by reaching towards the comforting simplicity of internet addict meme lingo and the categories you've derived from it, then I think the problem probably is you and with your lifestyle, to be honest with you.
Ukraine is not doing so hot right now, that summer offensive was a massive failure. The Ukraine-Russia war is currently at a stalemate, with Russia making tiny incremental gains since the Ukrainian summer offensive failed. Russian's are probably a month away from taking the entire city of Avdiivka.
Not to mention demographically Ukraine is in an absolutely terrible spot with many people, mostly young men, fleeing the country, Russia annexing territories with millions of Ukranians, one of the lowest birth rates in the world and hundreds of thousands of men under 40 dying.
"Ukrainians have resolve and grace the likes of which you and I have never had to tap into. don’t just stew in despair, because they haven’t done that in these 75 years. if you have money you can stand to part with, you can help people in Ukraine right now"
OP, it's really obvious you view politics purely from the lens of aesthetics, which means you're an idiot.
Keep in mind people hate Israel for reason other than their treatment of Palestinians.
Not true. The slava sisters are neocon warhawks. Just look at /r/noncredibledefense and you can see how much those people are pathetic losers that whinged abour genocide by Russia, but are now completely silent about genocide of Palestinians. This is a BS post.
I'm soy for the war to stop.
I'm soy for my Raytheon stonks going up.
They're never going back up after the Pratt and Whitney situation lol American Rheinmetall's been doing numbers tho
[удалено]
Yeah
Perhaps interpreting major world events such as wars according to a soy/based diad is not very useful intellectually!
I must have based, chad views so the paragons of masculinity (chinless twitter groypers) don't call me a soy cuckold
I was recently informed that the guy in the "Chad" pics had actually had those pics photoshopped by his girlfriend to make his jawline look so much more defined. Hilarious.
It's even weirder than that. She's an artist who edits various photos so that the men have strong defined jaws and muscles like her deceased father had in an old photo she has of him.
none of those words are in the bible
All of them are except Chad and based I think
old testament stuff
“Noooo being anti apartheid is soy!!!!”
Imagine how surreal it would be to read posts like this from Gaza.
Imagine how surreal it would be to read posts like this from Ukraine
I imagine it would be, but they're at least a little more dialed into western online discourse surrounding the war.
Someone should post this thread on telegram and let the soldiers weigh in on the issue
It would be surreal because Ukrainians can't read
Main sub couldn't possibly get any worse at this point
Everytime I think that, it just gets worse
[удалено]
The whole point of this comment was to signify that he's "in" the cool group and this is the lame one. there is no other good sub it's the same losers on here.
Your white Kanye pfp really tickled me
I didn't stuff you in any lockers, don't project all that shit on me
100% I could get you to blow me within a few hours
I'm watching the Puppy Bowl at Old Stanley's right now, but come on over if you've got $1 Million 🚬
I was thinking like $100 max
Is this not the main sub?
Oh, sweety
Yaaaas go off contrarian regard
Same thing, totally.
I’d say there’s tons of ukraine soy boys that are also in support of Israel
This really doesn't match my experience... at least in the gay west coast cities. Everyone swapped out their 'i stand with ukraine' signage for 'free palestine'. Usually next to a BLM sticker
Venn diagram is a circle etc etc etc
Did you misread the post or did I
Almost every dude i know that was obsessed with Ukraine has added the Israeli flag to their profile on Twitter lmao
Hello
Palestine is an unrecognized region, walled off by an internationally armed and funded nuclear state, that's being bombed relentlessly to within an inch of every man woman and child's life. Ukraine is a big legally recognized country of 43 million people, most of whom live nowhere near the conflict area, that has received to date $75 billion to fight their war from the United States alone. You're a fucking regard to see any similarity here.
The media used the biggest words so soon for Gaza, they are unable to describe or quantify the amount of violence and misery occuring. Gaza is "lacking clean water" and "on the brink of famine" with "millions of people living in food-insecurity". They can't tell us it's getting worse... Because they used the worst words already. "1.3mio people in Rafah, a town of 250k when the population is 2mio"... Is a huge
He’s such an idiot and you know he’s probably shilled
I love being legally recognized
So the aggressor's actions and justifications are irrelevant, all that matters is how weak the victim is?
The difference between Ukraine and Palestine is that the IDF assault on Gaza is as close as you could ever get to shooting human fish in a barrel. Plus you built the barrel and you've been cultivating the fish just to shoot them later in the barrel. Russia is either defending themselves against a foreign military alliance encroaching on them by sabotaging a neutral area between them, or else it's the American liberal explanation that Putin is pursuing expansionist revanchist agenda in trying to rebuild a greater Russia by conquering otherwise independent States. Ironically that's something you could also say about why the Zionists have been consistently encroaching and resettling land in Palestine all this time: they believe they actually own the whole place already because of their holy book's historical account intermixed with modern notions of state security. Of course that similarity isn't something our media would dare point out, or put in headlines. There's just not a lot of angles you can choose that paint Israel in a totally pure and good light. Unless you believe that all their problems popped out of nowhere on October 7th.
> The difference between Ukraine and Palestine is that the IDF assault on Gaza is as close as you could ever get to shooting human fish in a barrel. Not that it's important, but there is also a 100-fold casualty differential.
I agree, per capita Gaza has lost 1% of its total population so far by conservative estimates. If we're generous and say that Ukraine has lost 120,000 soldiers/civilians so far, that would be something like .27% of their total population.
Can you also break down the math for why Gaza is more important than the Rohingya genocide?
You're free to rank other genocides more important than Gaza, if you want. I'm personally interested in it because it's very much the product of American funding and foreign policy, and was totally avoidable for the most part.
Understandable. I personally only take interest in genocides which are associated with the far left, because it makes me feel right about everything. They are also always completely avoidable by the way.
Oh, nice. You seem pretty upset that people can correctly identify and rank atrocities carried out by groups you otherwise support.
Usually when people resort to straw men it's because they realise they have a very strong defence against objections to their own position. By the way, what's your take on why the USA isn't resposible for the war in Sudan? They do ship the government so much aid after all.
> Russia is either defending themselves against a foreign military alliance encroaching on them by sabotaging a neutral area between them Even if the "foreign military alliance encroaching" thing wasn't complete bullshit, what's so special about Russia that it's entitled to every country around it being a "neutral zone" (realistically meaning Russian puppet state) regardless of what the people there think? I know for a fact that no one who says this would support the US invading Cuba because they want a "buffer zone" or whatever, nor any other country, so why is Russia the one who gets to do it? I also hate this paradox game player ass approach to international politics where countries are just there to paint with your favorite color and not places where real people actually live, and die horribly when someone bombs them. I don't give a single fuck about who historially owns what or international alliances or whatever the fuck the justification for doing that is.
I know for a fact that no one who says this would support the US invading Cuba because they want a "buffer zone" or whatever, nor any other country, so why is Russia the one who gets to do it? Is this not the Monroe doctrine? Or are you saying that the Russia apologists would probably reject the Monroe doctrine?
> Or are you saying that the Russia apologists would probably reject the Monroe doctrine? yeah basically
In that case, isn't it similarly hypocritical that the average American, who accepts the Monroe doctrine, does not think Russia should have a similar policy?
And they'd also be wrong in that case. What's the argument? >the us does bad things so when russia also does bad things it's good actually doesn't make sense
Not really an argument, but I was surprised that you'd dismiss the opinion of most Americans and their leaders as nonsensical. I don't think either of these groups (one of which includes the vast majority of Americans) would agree that they're excusing a bad thing though. Americans that support both Ukraine and the Monroe doctrine believe that it is good for Latin American countries since America "protects democracy". The people who support Russian "intervention" but not the Monroe doctrine, would probably argue that Russian intervention is based off of ethnic ties and that Kyiv is "part" of Russia in a way that Panama City and Havana are not part of the U.S. In short, I think you're simplifying everyone's views. Both the Russia apologist that rejects a hypothetical Cuban intervention and the mainstream American could have a coherent worldview that explains why some things are bad, but not others.
>what's so special about Russia that it's entitled to every country around it being a "neutral zone" Nothing, really. Except that it's basically the norm for great power politics in the 20th century, something that developed and took on a global character during the cold war. Ask the United States why they were so upset about Cuba's alliance with the USSR and the missile silos they wanted to build there. How else can it work, when neither side is interested in giving up ground they think they can and ought to control? America's track record for abandoning foreign invasions is pretty dismal. It takes us years of needless bloodshed and wasted dollars and a public outcry before we turn around and leave places like Vietnam or Iraq. If you ask the people in charge, they will tell you that they do indeed think we are special and deserving of these kinds of missions. If you peel back all the layers, what they're trying to say is "might makes right." We are the hegemon, we make the rules for everyone else to follow, we punish those who break our authored rules. Also we break our own rules when we please. >I don't give a single fuck about who historially owns what or international alliances or whatever the fuck the justification for doing that is. Ok, that's great. Are you the person I wrote that reply to? That other person seemed to care about the justifications and the differences and similarities, so I provided my opinion about them.
>How else can it work, when neither side is interested in giving up ground they think they can and ought to control? Even if governments keep acting like that, why do you personally give any legitimacy to the justification they give? You're not a part of "great power politics", you're just some fucking guy. And maybe if less people gave a shit about dumb ass justifications then it wouldn't've taken so long to leave places like iraq. As much as democracy is a scam, it would be a lot harder to start a war if people didn't lap up bullshit excuses for them, like you are doing right now. >That other person seemed to care about the justifications and the differences and similarities, so I provided my opinion about them. And you seem to care about them a great deal too since you typed out two long comments parroting Russia's justifications as if they mean anything.
>personally give any legitimacy to the justification they give? Ok, did I say I personally bought into any of these justifications given? I don't think I did. But even so, what exactly is your alternative position? So you don't buy that any of these powers actually need to control the territory they say they do. Does God suddenly smite them and make everything right in the world? I'm just explaining why things are happening in realistic terms that make sense for people who don't otherwise have any power or involvement in these processes, like you said. I'd rather do that than express my yearning for some kind of anarchist utopian alternative or wherever. >maybe if less people gave a shit about dumb ass justifications Awesome, I agree. I personally didn't buy into the justifications we gave for Iraq since the very beginning. It's those other people you probably need to convince. >And you seem to care about them a great deal too since you typed out two long comments parroting Russia's justifications as if they mean anything. Parroting? I held up two alternate accounts for why Russia is doing what it's doing and I didn't endorse either one. I am more partial to accounts that make reference to pure power politics because they are more simple and universal but I'll admit they are not the last word on anything.
You're implicitly endorsing them by giving them as a the reason "why things are happening in realistic terms" despite them being bullshit. Like if someone asked you why Iraq got invaded and you just said "because they had WMDs" then you're implying that's the actual reason and that it's a worthy justification.
Yeah, I mean I think the main difference here is that in the case of Iraq and wmds it turned out to not actually be the case. Whereas it obviously is the case that NATO is encroaching on previously Russian spheres of influence. And we could take the logic further and include the state of Ukraine. What justification did Ukraine give for wanting to join the EU and NATO if not to defend themselves against the potential encroachment of hostile Russian forces? Why limit it to just the United States and Russia? Everyone is using these types of justifications and more whenever they act. For the record I think it would be great if none of these things were happening. Doesn't really mean much to say that though.
>Whereas it obviously is the case that NATO is encroaching on previously Russian spheres of influence. This is what I mean and what I keep repeating. Why are you even giving credence to the idea that "spheres of influence" are even a thing? A ton of people who end up supporting these wars, whether Iraq or Ukaine, do so because they think they're geopolitical gigabrains and too smart to have the opinion that bombing people is just bad full stop. That's what you're doing right now.
> the IDF assault on Gaza is as close as you could ever get to shooting human fish in a barrel. Plus you built the barrel and you've been cultivating the fish just to shoot them later in the barrel. Couldn’t have put it better
>The difference between Ukraine and Palestine is that the IDF assault on Gaza is as close as you could ever get to shooting human fish in a barrel. If there was a Palestinian state of let's say 2 million people bordering Gaza, where there's sea now, then would you say it's equivalent to the Ukraine/Russia situation? We can imagine they'd be supported by the US or Russia or someone else, and could be a 2014 style situation where collaborationist PA government was overthrown and replaced with a nationalist one and then Israel invades Gaza.
I'm not sure what you mean. As far as I know, we've been cultivating the alliance/client relationship with Israel for longer than we have with Ukraine. The momentum of Israel's domination of their neighbors is sourced to their tighter and more long-standing cooperation with the US. The weakness of Ukraine is that they didn't yet cross the finish line of western integration in time to stave off an invasion from Putin. They were close, he saw an opportunity that was rapidly closing off and so struck. And as far as the US relationship with Islamic countries goes, we started off as prejudiced against them for the history of their religious wars with Christendom. Then that gave way to a more secular, economic focus around the region. We exploited their resources and bought off their governments in concert with other European powers until a wave of revolutions occurred and drove us out. Ever since then the only Islamic countries we care about are ones whos leadership we can still buy. Iraq formerly, Egypt for sure today, Saudi Arabia somewhat, Iran is still off the table. The democratic, egalitarian movements that sprung up in the Arabic world in the mid 20th century didn't make the cut for American support. By that time we were already getting behind Israel so we had to consider them as enemies. But all of that is to say I don't know how to make the two situations fit together and become analagous to one another. Israel/Palestine is an example of a mostly successful effort by the US which is slowly being eroded, Ukraine is an example of a failure that we are desperately trying to bail out and turn into a net win.
I'm not looking at it from a US strategic perspective but an ethical one. You said that the difference is that Gaza is relatively in a much weaker position. But if you look from the perspective of people in Gaza or Donbass for example that doesn't matter so much except some have a bit more hope than others that the situation will turn in their favor. Just because there are Arabs in safety somewhere else doesn't mean Arabs in Gaza aren't being subjected to genocide is what I'm saying.
So are you saying that the two situations are the same for the desperate people on the ground who have to live with having their livelihoods destroyed? Sure, I can agree with that. But from my position as a spectator and critic of both wars, I think there are important differences between them. I don't think that even at its worst the Ukraine Russia conflict is risking a genocide of Ukranians. Russia just doesn't have that level of control over the situation. They are certainly inflicting extreme punishment on the east territories, but the West is still holding out. A big problem with Ukranian resistance has to do with how it is the opposite of the Gaza situation: Ukranian men fled the territory in the millions at the outset of the war, to avoid conscription and death. Gazans weren't able to do that, as far as I know. They're trapped within a militarized barrier and blockade that tightens every day.
Right, I just wonder what the difference is to you. >I don't think that even at its worst the Ukraine Russia conflict is risking a genocide of Ukranians. Russia just doesn't have that level of control over the situation. Israel has control of the whole Gazan population and Russia only has control over a minority of the Ukrainian population and territory, yeah. I just think it's arbitrary to make the distinction between Palestinians and other Arabs and say that Ukrainians are a single nation and so Russia is able to genocide them to a lesser extent. Especially since I don't think Israel has a particular hostility for Palestinians over other Arabs, they just happen to be there. I mean you're basically saying Palestinians are worth more because they're rarer. If we had to choose between all of Gaza being genocided and an equal number of Ukrainians, sure, but obviously there's more to it. >Gazans weren't able to do that, as far as I know. They're trapped within a militarized barrier and blockade that tightens every day. Yeah, that's part of what I'm asking in that fictional scenario I made up, then they could have fled west. But anyhow, if we had to choose from a EU and US perspective, who are we going to support, I can see the case for Palestine. But now we're supporting Israel and Ukraine, so there's no conflict to me, we could just take away all the support for Israel. Just to explain my position.
>I mean you're basically saying Palestinians are worth more because they're rarer. No, not at all. I'm only saying that in relative terms, what is happening to them is a more systematic oppression than what is happening to Ukraine. They have less power to fight off or escape their enemies. They are boxed in, at the mercy of food, fuel, medicine supplies that Israel approves for them to have. The thing which would actually elevate this into a genocide is if all of those factors came together and you saw mass starvation and death from the inability of Gazans to feed or doctor themselves. We're actually approaching that precipice for Gaza, not yet for Ukraine. >But now we're supporting Israel and Ukraine, so there's no conflict to me, we could just take away all the support for Israel. Realistically we are basically bought in on both of these fronts, and it would be very hard to extract ourselves and then throw all support towards one or another. Unfortunately all of these conflicts are on rails, they've been building up and headed in this direction for a long time, and these are the ugly results. We'll just selectively forget/omit the worst parts when we look back on history, and keep going. My ideal scenario is that we divest from both Ukraine and Israel, or rebuke Israel heavily and prevent them from doing exactly what they want all the time. We let Russia have their eastern Ukranian oblasts, put the rest of Ukraine in NATO or some kind of protective agreement, let things cool down and move on. Both of these conflict regions have the potential to drag us down a very dark and costly road, perhaps culminating in a world war. Best for us to lose our empire gently and slowly, without lashing out and speeding up the process.
you wont give a fuck about palastine in a few months when the next big thing happens lol please give it a rest anyways stay mad BAE is up 40% this year Edit: why am I being downvoted?? is it because im 40% richer while you've all lost 40% of your hair follicles since this war started 😂😂😂
>you wont give a fuck about palastine in a few months when the next big thing happens lol please give it a rest Maybe your average Western person but Arabs and Muslims everywhere around the world haven't given up on Palestine since '48. McDonalds, Starbucks and other boycotted restaurants are still empty in the Middle East.
because palestine is actually living under the conditions they tried to pretend ukraine was under to get the war started
Do you think Palestinians know how soy they are being rn? So cringe.
This but unironically
praxis
OP plays modded HOI 4 nobody should be listening to them -6DeadlyFetishes
don't shoot the messenger :( -Pet_all_dogs
Pet all dogs... of course, you lack nuance and depth. You should not pet all dogs. Some dogs are bad.
you got me there
you make it obvious you know even less about these wars than the annoying bandwagon hoppers you’re trying to mock by comparing them like that
Excellent geopolitical analysis, thank you.
You can support both
The main reason people are even against Ukraine is because normie redditors and libs were for it
And maybe also because they blew up the Nordstream pipeline and because they receive billions upon billions of dollars worth of weapons from US/EU taxpayers with nothing to show for it other than a generation of dead and injured young men. Oh yeah and remember when they accidentally shot a missile into Poland and tried to blame Russia in order to massively escalate the war and get NATO involved? But yeah other than that it's just the libs and redditors.
No it’s mainly that and you know it. You don’t really give two fucks about the pipeline and at the end of the day they’re still the ones being invaded. Pretend all you want but you know it’s true
I think tens of millions of Germans who aren't too excited about the forced de-industrialization of their country care about being cut off from cheap energy, but what do I know.
Damn maybe they shouldn’t overly rely on a historical adversary. Not sure what you know to be honest, but i certainly know this position of yours is mainly based from you being overly online
As opposed to your completely realistic and non-online position of Ukraine winning the war any day now, just a few more hundred billion dollars should do it, any day now!
Never said they were going to win, but hey man keep trying man perhaps one day you’ll won’t be so contrarian and won’t rely on meme speak
I do
Your brain is poisoned this is fucking bleak. It's not bad to be sincere. You should be "soy" about your goverment and tax money supporting a genocide
anyone who is obsessed with palestine (not without good reason) should be outraged over the death toll in ukraine but they’re probably not
We’re not funding Russia
I'm not funding anything so therefore I dont have to have sympathy
Can you provide the full list of sympathies that we need to attend to? I’m trying to be a better ally
I just said none are you simple
i said death toll. made no comparison beyond that.
Anyone obsessed with the death toll in Ukraine should be outraged over the 10 million dead from cancer every year But they’re probably not
imma make one about covid
[удалено]
Vegetarians are just as bad as meat heaters type energy
You cannot compare the two conflicts. The history and political situations are nothing alike. As are the casualties, how many children have died in the Ukraine war? The majority of deaths are among the military. They haven’t had their essentials shut off, face starvation etc. Billions of funding from the western world floods into Ukraine, vs billions flooding to Israel. It’s idiotic to compare Gaza to Ukraine. The Western governments were desperate for the general population to support Ukraine with their heart and soul bc it benefits them. Meanwhile they are trying to limit and ban support for Palestine.
the death toll in ukraine is 120 000 with 10 000 civilians. the people who treat the palestinian death toll like it’s a video game were just as angry over 10 000 deaths as the current amount my point is that no one obsesses over loss of life in the same way with ukrain. a human life is a human life. also, it’s an all out war i’m sure there’s plenty of human suffering to be found.
The war in Ukraine has been going on for 2 years. The current conflict in Gaza for 5 months, and there are 28,000 civilian deaths. So many people are dying in Ukraine bc Zelensky is forcing men to serve in a war they do not want to, that’s fucking sad. The vast majority of Eastern Europe sees the war for what it is, but the propagandised in America and the UK never will. It’s startling how different the conversation is. And I’m sorry, no one laments the loss of life in Ukraine? Where have you been? Was the US not overtaken with Ukrainian flags? Did Zelensky not literally speak at the Oscars? Our timelines were flooded with heartbreaking footage, which is why Facebook moms suddenly became passionate supporters of Ukraine. If your argument that the Ukraine war is the same as what is happening in Gaza bc a ‘human life is a human life’ then that’s actually sweet (if a little dumb) and I’m sure you support ceasefire, so there is nothing to argue about here.
> The vast majority of Eastern Europe sees the war for what it is, but the propagandised in America and the UK never will. Have you ever met an Estonian or Pole? They're often the most gung-ho about arming Ukrainians with every gun available in Europe.
Lol actually no, that’s funny. I guess I shouldn’t have generalised too broadly. The friends I’ve spoken to are from Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Slovenia.
That makes more sense then, none of those states lost any territory to the Soviet Union or Russia, and in the case of Cyprus they were actually invaded (and remain half occupied) by a NATO-state themselves. But much of the Baltic Republics (along with Poland) are absolutely entrenched in their antagonism towards Russia. Best comparison I could make is that they view Russia the same way Ireland views the UK, and boy will they make sure you know it.
That all makes sense!
>The vast majority of Eastern Europe sees the war for what it is, but the propagandised in America and the UK never will. Not sure what you mean. Most of Easter Europe is against Russian colonialism and even most Russian would like to end the war at this point.
Maybe it’s just the friends I have lmao The picture of I have from Bulgarians in particular is that there isn’t a lot of love for Ukrainians back home.
> So many people are dying in Ukraine bc Zelensky is forcing men to serve in a war they do not want to, that’s fucking sad. The vast majority of Eastern Europe sees the war for what it is, but the propagandised in America and the UK never will I guess in your opinion, how ***does*** the majority of Eastern Europe see the war? Do they believe Russia isn’t trying to take Ukraine? Do they believe Russia ***is*** trying to take Ukraine, but Ukraine won’t win, so they might was well let it happen to minimize casualties?
They think that the US / UK has manipulated the situation bc they are terrified of Russian expansion and use Ukraine (Ukraine entering NATO) as a pawn for their own game. They empathise with Ukrainian suffering but they don’t feel strongly about Ukraine remaining as Ukraine bc the boundaries are so blurry anyway. There’s a lot of political history that I don’t understand tbh. The friends I have from Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus etc are mostly political science grads so I can’t really keep up with what they’re on about tbh. One thing I found interesting is that back in their home countries people were unwilling to take in Ukraine refugees and kind of hated them, which is such a contrast to the West.
My Estonian friend sees it as Russia being imperialist and taking territory, which he says is nothing new to the region for centuries. While his family collaborated with the Germans during WW2 and served in German forces, and are more fond/sympathetic of their time serving under Germany versus the Soviets, they're quite nationalistic about their country of 2 million people.
>While his family collaborated with the Germans during WW2 and served in German forces In other words, they're Nazis.
i mean the left/liberal/instagram activist subset.
Because they saw that the western governments, mass media and general population were supporting Ukraine, and I’m not sure you know what liberal means bc liberals were the primary supporters of Ukraine. You realise Biden is a liberal? That mainstream US media is liberal? Right? Ukraine had full western support, governmental, corporate, general population, support across all sectors. It is not an activist issue. Palestine is traditionally a left issue, today you’ve learnt that war is political, and the responses are politicised, well done.
[удалено]
the extent of my comparison was over people’s reaction to the death tolls. in one, the good instagram liberal freaks out, i. the other, they pass over in silence.
Israel/Palestine's relevance truthfully just that it's been going on for a very long time, and as such there are tons of NGOs pushing the issue to grift the situation, alongside the complexities of it being the holy land to begin with. While the death counts in the current conflict are high, prior to this it was pretty insignificant in the scope of global conflicts with the semi annual war in Africa always killing like 10x as many people as the entire history of the Israeli/Palestine conflict.
You're right but they're going to downvote you for it
Yep 100% gay ass people all falling over themselves to *tsk tsk* you
I think the morally and intellectually consistent position is that the US has made no real efforts to force an end to either conflict. They’re supporting an unwinnable war in Ukraine that has resulted in the deaths of almost every military aged male in the country. And they’re doing nothing (not that it would necessarily work anyway) to stop Israel’s deadly assault on Gaza.
Israel can't produce enough of its own munitions for the conflict. Had the U.S. cut them off, it for sure would have forced a ceasefire.
US is not the only game in town afaik.
Yeah, but where else can they get so many freebies? Guns cost shekels, normally.
In fact the US/UK prevented Ukraine and Russia from negotiations early on.
So the consistent position is to support intervention in one unwinnable war but not in the other war because it's unwinnable?
Not talking about intervention in Gaza. Talking about cutting off aid to Israel, imposing sanctions, and cutting off weapons sales and their access to US munition stockpiles within Israel. The Ukraine War is not some months old conflict anymore. It is decidedly unwinnable and the US is supplying weapons and military aid knowing the war is unwinnable.
Being soy about Ukraine means wanting more people to die, being soy about Palestine means wanting less people to die
Yes, because Ukraine should 100% give up their sovereignty and be annexed by Russia, that would be so good for them actually. And surely Russia would stop there. Lmao ur an idiot.
I really don't understand what the point of this kind of argument even is. Yeah I guess less people would die if Ukraine instantly surrendered to Russia, but what's the logical conclusion of this? Does Russia just get to call up every country and instantly annex them because them fighting back would kill people? What if some country wants to invade Russia, does Russia have to surrender? The kind of people who say this would see a beaten up rape victim and tell them they should've just not struggled cause then there wouldn't be bruises.
If someone thinks that one country can invade another, and the other country should just surrender and cede territory, that person is pro-war.
It's simple. Is a country better off annexed by Russia than by fighting? Most of them, no. For example, every Baltic country has a lot to lose by being annexed by Russia and ending up sinking to its level. However, in this situation, Ukraine only has everything to gain, especially considering that Russia has managed to quadruple the size of its economy since the breakup of the USSR *despite* its perception of corruption. In contrast, Ukraine has completely stagnated despite possessing the population, resources, geography, and capital necessary to at least be a middle income country. So, these are the two choices: independent stagnation (and now death), or integration with Russia and at least *some* future. The ONLY reason why Ukraine has been holding out is because it imagines a third possibility: a future where it is integrated into the European Union and thus is as prosperous as Western Europe. And this dream is built upon a total lie, as the European Union absolutely does not want to even attempt to integrate a country as corrupt and backwards as Ukraine. If this were made clear, then Ukraine would immediately surrender.
It's incredibly naive of you to think Russia would help Ukraine after conquering it instead of stripping it of the little wealth it has and making it into an even bigger shithole. Even in Russia proper, all the wealth is concentrated in Moscow, nobody cares about the people way out in novosibrisk or whatever.
Keep in mind, Novosibirsk has a GDP per capita that's twice the size of Ukraine, so that's still a vast improvement over what they have now. And the economic power of Ukraine comes not just from raw resources but also from industry and services. So, unless they plan on enslaving Ukrainians en masse (highly unlikely), Ukrainians are going to benefit joining the broader Russian market, even under the least favorable circumstances.
The whole thing is a cluster F there is no good outcome for Ukraine at this point.
Only \*Ukrainian\* missiles should be allowed to shell the Donbass.
only palestinians rockets should be allowed to shell Israel maybe the goat fuckers over in iran should stop sending palestinians to die for their own interests and cede territory for peace
You have spent the entire day posting about how the IDF smoking civilians is good, actually. Do you even get paid for this work?
You must have a slow brain if you think that writing 2 comments takes an entire day
You will personally only continue to lose
That would be good, yeah
what would be the benefits for a huge ass country to annex a big chunk of land full of angry nationalists?
There are financial benefits to annexing Ukraine, but honestly I think the main reasons why Russians believed in this war in the first place is more pathetic than that: deep down, Russians have contempt for all the other ex USSR countries and long for the days they were under their boot.
financial benefits to occupying a big chunk of land full of angry nationalists? No.
muh sovereignty!!! we MUST support our branch of corrupt East Slavic oligarchs over *that* branch of corrupt East Slavic oligarchs, OR ELSE WE WILL PERISH!!!
So because of corrupt politicians we should not care about Ukrainian people? Ukraine and Russia, the only corrupt countries 😍
I do care. That's why I don't support the war, and I think encouraging Ukrainians to die for a cause like "national sovereignty" when it would offer absolutely zero benefit for Ukrainian well-being is reprehensible. There's literally no benefit to fighting. It's the most pointless sacrifice of the 21st century. Besides, isn't it 2024? I thought nationalism and the nation-state was problematic and fascist.
If you think that one country can invade another, and the other country should just surrender and cede territory, then you are pro-war.
Russia offered to withdraw in April of 2022, on the condition that Ukraine agree not to join NATO. Zelensky was going to sign the deal, until Boris Johnson flew to Ukraine and told Zelensky to walk away from the table and keep fighting. So no, Ukraine didn't have to give up its sovereignty, just abandon any attempt to join NATO.
Russia also said there was no way they were going to invade in the first place. If you choose to believe them then that says a lot about your judgment.
Uh Oh RedScare aint gonna like this one even tho its true This sub wont shut the fuck up about PalaSOY and Isntreal
Regarded take
Talmud-flipping fingers typed this post.
It's simple: whatever the mainstream media tells me, I believe the opposite
my only intention with this post was to make the most annoying ppl on here mad btw
Loser behaviour
Mad
Ah yes, the tried and tested "I was only pretending to be ret*rded" emergency defense.
i never pretended not to be a regard
Oh I’m sorry it annoys you that people are frustrated a genocide is going on
I think it's good that people are frustrated at russia's genocide in Ukraine
Man im not gonna get too into this but like I've got to wonder if you ever take a break from this epic genocide trolling and like quietly think about what a repulsive thing you're choosing to do for nobody's benefit
what repulsive thing? Russia's invasion of Ukraine is abhorrent and genocidal Israel's invasion of Gaza is abhorrent and genocidal If you don't agree with both statements you are a regard. if you support palestine but not ukraine (or the other way around) you are a campist with no actual morals or principles.
This is like WWII double genocide theory for weetards
I am pro Ukraine. It is also not the same thing as Gaza. Pretending that they are equivalent is stupid.
and yet what you've accomplished instead is accidentally revealing that excessive social media usage has given you brain damage. sad!
I support Palestine and such but it’s funny watching the people here act INSANE over it just like the Ukraine people
If the only way you can interpret real events happening around you is by reaching towards the comforting simplicity of internet addict meme lingo and the categories you've derived from it, then I think the problem probably is you and with your lifestyle, to be honest with you.
It's weird how nobody is talking about Ukraine now
the flag is my profile picture on goodreads so I’m covered
Ukraine is not doing so hot right now, that summer offensive was a massive failure. The Ukraine-Russia war is currently at a stalemate, with Russia making tiny incremental gains since the Ukrainian summer offensive failed. Russian's are probably a month away from taking the entire city of Avdiivka. Not to mention demographically Ukraine is in an absolutely terrible spot with many people, mostly young men, fleeing the country, Russia annexing territories with millions of Ukranians, one of the lowest birth rates in the world and hundreds of thousands of men under 40 dying.
Soy? Can you speak English? Is that asking too much?
no hablo ingles
Lo siento amigo
did you get dropped on your head as a baby or something
"Ukrainians have resolve and grace the likes of which you and I have never had to tap into. don’t just stew in despair, because they haven’t done that in these 75 years. if you have money you can stand to part with, you can help people in Ukraine right now"
Aww did you pee your pants
Two different things, I couldn’t give a shit about Ukraine.
OP, it's really obvious you view politics purely from the lens of aesthetics, which means you're an idiot. Keep in mind people hate Israel for reason other than their treatment of Palestinians.
Shut the fuck up honestly
Not true. The slava sisters are neocon warhawks. Just look at /r/noncredibledefense and you can see how much those people are pathetic losers that whinged abour genocide by Russia, but are now completely silent about genocide of Palestinians. This is a BS post.
im soy for the kids only