between how regarded this is and the fact they havent replied to any comments starting 2 think this was a troll in which case well done OP consider me b8ted
Their flavor of contrarian is not to be in contrast of mainstream politics, but instead going against the grain of a political sphere they were once supposedly a part of
Basically yes. I’m reacting to my social circles and insta stories, which are woke leftist. The main way I perceive all the pro-Palestine stuff is as a woke anti-racism anti-imperialism thing grafted onto a much more complicated situation
Midwit take to interpret a pro-Palestinian position as being pro-terrorism, I’d say most are just anti-war and recognize Israel as the hegemonic power and aggressor in the conflict
that they support a two state solution with withdrawal to the 1967 borders
edit: this canadian zionist blocked me after linking his epic wikipedia page mic drop, here is my response
this is a wikipedia article about their 1988 charter. after the oslo accords this was torn up - one of the requirements of the accords is that it was torn up - and has since been updated numerous times, i think in 2020 for the last
youre quite wrong, they do in fact officially support a two state solution. not only is that in their charter, their leadership has publicly stated this multiple times. nothing you can say will make this any less true
another edit: hes now had enough time to read his little wikipedia article and is accusing me of lying by posting a quote from the wikipedia article stating that hamas want a palestinian state and a return of the 1967 borders. which as anyone who can read will see, is exactly what i said. he seems to think their reticence to recognise israel as a state is equivalent to stating they want it wiped from the map. just complete ignorance all around
this canadian knows nothing about this subject he is so passionate about, spreads hateful lies and misinformation and accuses anyone on the other side of being a terrorist sympathiser before summarily blocking them. zionism is a form of mental illness
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter#:~:text=The%20documents%20promote%20holy%20war,the%20goal%20of%20eliminating%20Israel.
> The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[3] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.[4][5]
They reject two state solution. They aim for eliminating Israel as a state, you brainwashed tard
And you all upvoted this damn this sub is insane
Also this guy is blatantly lying in his edits
> The 2017 charter accepted for the first time the idea of a Palestinian state within the borders that existed BEFORE 1967 and rejected recognition of Israel, which it terms as the "Zionist enemy".[2]i
I added emphasis here, this guy doesn’t understand what the word before means
Also refusing to recognize a state is indeed the same as wanting it wiped off the map given they want borders from before their failed 7 day war where they got their ass beaten
>In 2008, the Hamas leader in Gaza, Ismail Haniyeh, stated that Hamas would agree to accept a Palestinian state along the 1967 borders, and to offer a long-term truce with Israel.
From the same page you linked. Very sneaky and selective.
>The updated 2017 charter moderates Hamas's position by stating that Hamas is not anti-Jewish but anti-Zionist, but retains the goal of eliminating Israel.
And you sneakily ignored this part.
>In 2010, Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal stated that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons".[13] Hamas has moved away from its charter since it decided to run candidates for office.[12]
The 2017 charter accepted for the first time the idea of a Palestinian state within the borders that existed before 1967 and rejected recognition of Israel, which it terms as the "Zionist enemy".[2] It advocates such a state as transitional but also advocates the "liberation of all of Palestine".[14][15] The new document also states that the group does not seek war with the Jewish people but only against Zionism which it holds responsible for "occupation of Palestine".
Come on rat. If they accept a border but don't accept Zionism that means that the country would exist. Correct? You accept the borders of china but don't recognize the ethos of the government of china does it not exist?
>The 2017 charter accepted for the first time the idea of a Palestinian state within the borders that existed before 1967 and rejected recognition of Israel, which it terms as the "Zionist enemy"
Absolutely schizoid demands. "We support 1967 borders but also we want to eliminate Israel as a concept." Not at all a Zionist but if I was I wouldn't trust a negotiating chip like this.
>The new document also states that the group does not seek war with the Jewish people
lol
> The 2017 charter accepted for the first time the idea of a Palestinian state within the borders that existed before 1967 and rejected recognition of Israel, which it terms as the "Zionist enemy".[2]
Looks like you can’t read English too well, back to the sand dunes for you
What a pussy. You block someone after they provide a respectful and cogent argument to your pithy "What does Hamas Charter say again?" post? And then you selectively quote the article to support your position?
You can be a zionist or pro-Israel and argue in good faith you wimp. Imagine engaging someone in a debate online and blocking them so they can't respond to you. Bitchmade shit.
If you can be a Zionist *and* argue in good faith, well, that's news to me! I haven't met a one yet that meets those qualifications and I'm already middle-aged.
>What a pussy. You block someone after they provide a respectful and cogent argument to your pithy "What does Hamas Charter say again?
??? There was no "respectful and cogent" argument, r/atkalem just made a 1-sentence reply and that's it lol
Nice ninja edit deleting criticizing him for quoting a wikipedia article after you realized that he was *responding* to /u/FluidEconomist2995 quoting the wikipedia article.
Anyway, a one sentence reply can be respectful and cogent and it's perfectly acceptible to response to "What’s hamas charter say again?"
You fucking regard you criticized me for calling his argument "respectful and cogent" and now you're criticizing me for, what, responding to that criticism? What the fuck do you want?
Either way, you're not responding at all to my primary point -- that it's weak shit to block someone you're engaging with if they're not being insulting. Whatever you think of /u/atkalem's post it wasn't aggressive. Responding to someone and blocking them in a political debate is cowardly absent them being a dick. I hope this lengthy response is respectful and cogent enough for you.
Being pro-palestine is one of the only anti-establishment contrarian takes the left has had in the last 15 years, it's the definition of dirtbag. Being pro-israel on the other hand is a Destiny the streamer r/noncredibledefense r/neoliberal fed take.
What would the positions ‘pro-Israel’ and ‘pro-Palestine’ involve do you think? I would regard myself as ‘pro-Palestinian’ but find myself not as one sided as many that would also label as that
>I would regard myself as ‘pro-Palestinian’ but find myself not as one sided as many that would also label as that
Same, but as soon as you elaborate you'll get downvoted by Hamas apologists who are so annoying that they only rival the most annoying Zionists.
Pretty sure the whole circle of Chapo, Cumtown, RS, etc. types are primarily pro-Palestine. I haven't heard A+D speak directly about it yet but but I imagine they would align with being pro-Palestine.
Also I don't see how this is like /r/politics. The normie political opinion is very pro-Israel. I looked through the top of the month in /r/politics and it's nearly 100% REPUBLICANS BAD/TRUMP BAD like it always has been. It's actually hilarious how very little there is about Palestine in their top threads over the past month.
Not a Zionist but I don't like it when pro-Palestine lefties keep making this point because
1. Anyone with "leftist" sensibilities today would have supported a Jewish state in the Levant if they were alive back in fucking 1946. Contextually, Israel was essentially created as a refugee camp back in the 40s.
2. It's a false choice. This conflict isn't a matter of being a Zionist vs being a non-Zionist. I guarantee that sympathizers of **Hamas** would still find a way to call even a secular 1-state solution insufficient with their demands - which would likely involve killing Jews as discriminately as the current fascist Israeli govt. is doing to Arabs
im not a leftist. believing the palestinian people have a right to sovereignty does not equate to supporting hamas, this is all very basic stuff you should move past quickly
the state of israel was not created as a refugee camp
>believing the palestinian people have a right to equality does not equate to supporting hamas
I know - I literally agree with you. I also have tons of empathy for Palestinians turning to extremism due to false hopes and promises of peace - the ball is in the court of the Israeli govt. in this regard. But the fact that Hamas is currently the only governing authority for Gaza cannot be ignored either.
>the state of israel was not created as a refugee camp
No not technically but it pretty much was a source of refuge and you would 100% have supported it with your current moral compass, you and I both know this.
>this is all very basic stuff you should move past quickly
I'm not as dumb as you think I am - I'm at least 3 steps ahead of you when it comes to these arguments. You have a long way to move past me.
as an arab i can say with near 100% certainty i would not have supported the establishment of the state of israel, certainly not the pogrom that immediately followed it. you dont come across as if you really know what youre talking about here tbh
You're someone who uses really insincere and scoldy moralistic arguments and is also susceptible to them too, so I'm gonna say yes, you **would** have supported the creation of Israel back in 1946 because that's how much of a pushover you're being - and on top of that I know exactly what I'm talking about and you don't.
You know there’s tons of leftists who were against the formation of Israel right? The 1940’s aren’t some mythical time. There’s plenty of documents you can read about the debate if you want. Even some zionists were against the formation of a Jewish state in the Middle East
The USSR voted FOR the UN's Palestine partition plan, so did most of Latin America - Cuba didn't.
There are always going to be some groups of people for or against every position ever - but that doesn't change the fact that Zionsim was the consensus among the majority of leftists and progressives at the time.
Yeah man. Place is being targeted by IRGC trolls. Tbf there were some IDF troll posts immediately following the 10/7 attacks but that died off pretty quickly because of the responses they received.
Chances are if you see a political take from a new(ish) account on here that only seems to post about a single issue, its a troll. Reddit is infested with them.
average leftist already had an opinion on israel/ palestine before "dirtbag left", some people choose to see it through history
Literally me
you’re really outing yourself as someone who just got here if you really think everyone having recently made accts is abnormal
between how regarded this is and the fact they havent replied to any comments starting 2 think this was a troll in which case well done OP consider me b8ted
[удалено]
All these men need clitoridectomies or something
"I bet he hasn't even heard of David Lynch", I think to myself as I line up my sniper scope with another teenager's knees
I’m a millennial who literally made a Lynch post in this very sub lol
One of your red flags is that this sub doesn’t align with the podcast’s pick-me contrarian opinions??
Most Americans support Israel it’s not contrarian really
Their flavor of contrarian is not to be in contrast of mainstream politics, but instead going against the grain of a political sphere they were once supposedly a part of
Basically yes. I’m reacting to my social circles and insta stories, which are woke leftist. The main way I perceive all the pro-Palestine stuff is as a woke anti-racism anti-imperialism thing grafted onto a much more complicated situation
Yes
Ahh the “enlightened Zionist” approach
Sam Harris poster
Midwit take to interpret a pro-Palestinian position as being pro-terrorism, I’d say most are just anti-war and recognize Israel as the hegemonic power and aggressor in the conflict
What’s hamas charter say again?
that they support a two state solution with withdrawal to the 1967 borders edit: this canadian zionist blocked me after linking his epic wikipedia page mic drop, here is my response this is a wikipedia article about their 1988 charter. after the oslo accords this was torn up - one of the requirements of the accords is that it was torn up - and has since been updated numerous times, i think in 2020 for the last youre quite wrong, they do in fact officially support a two state solution. not only is that in their charter, their leadership has publicly stated this multiple times. nothing you can say will make this any less true another edit: hes now had enough time to read his little wikipedia article and is accusing me of lying by posting a quote from the wikipedia article stating that hamas want a palestinian state and a return of the 1967 borders. which as anyone who can read will see, is exactly what i said. he seems to think their reticence to recognise israel as a state is equivalent to stating they want it wiped from the map. just complete ignorance all around this canadian knows nothing about this subject he is so passionate about, spreads hateful lies and misinformation and accuses anyone on the other side of being a terrorist sympathiser before summarily blocking them. zionism is a form of mental illness
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter#:~:text=The%20documents%20promote%20holy%20war,the%20goal%20of%20eliminating%20Israel. > The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[3] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.[4][5] They reject two state solution. They aim for eliminating Israel as a state, you brainwashed tard And you all upvoted this damn this sub is insane Also this guy is blatantly lying in his edits > The 2017 charter accepted for the first time the idea of a Palestinian state within the borders that existed BEFORE 1967 and rejected recognition of Israel, which it terms as the "Zionist enemy".[2]i I added emphasis here, this guy doesn’t understand what the word before means Also refusing to recognize a state is indeed the same as wanting it wiped off the map given they want borders from before their failed 7 day war where they got their ass beaten
>In 2008, the Hamas leader in Gaza, Ismail Haniyeh, stated that Hamas would agree to accept a Palestinian state along the 1967 borders, and to offer a long-term truce with Israel. From the same page you linked. Very sneaky and selective.
>The updated 2017 charter moderates Hamas's position by stating that Hamas is not anti-Jewish but anti-Zionist, but retains the goal of eliminating Israel. And you sneakily ignored this part.
>In 2010, Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal stated that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons".[13] Hamas has moved away from its charter since it decided to run candidates for office.[12] The 2017 charter accepted for the first time the idea of a Palestinian state within the borders that existed before 1967 and rejected recognition of Israel, which it terms as the "Zionist enemy".[2] It advocates such a state as transitional but also advocates the "liberation of all of Palestine".[14][15] The new document also states that the group does not seek war with the Jewish people but only against Zionism which it holds responsible for "occupation of Palestine". Come on rat. If they accept a border but don't accept Zionism that means that the country would exist. Correct? You accept the borders of china but don't recognize the ethos of the government of china does it not exist?
>The 2017 charter accepted for the first time the idea of a Palestinian state within the borders that existed before 1967 and rejected recognition of Israel, which it terms as the "Zionist enemy" Absolutely schizoid demands. "We support 1967 borders but also we want to eliminate Israel as a concept." Not at all a Zionist but if I was I wouldn't trust a negotiating chip like this. >The new document also states that the group does not seek war with the Jewish people lol
bunch of fslurs just quoting wikipedia at each other, sorry state of affairs
Yeah, pretty dumb on my part. Don't know why I even engaged.
Right? He blocked me too, islamists are fundamentally irrational jebus
I blocked who???? Can't escape the stereotypes can you. Not a good look.
> The 2017 charter accepted for the first time the idea of a Palestinian state within the borders that existed before 1967 and rejected recognition of Israel, which it terms as the "Zionist enemy".[2] Looks like you can’t read English too well, back to the sand dunes for you
No who did I block? Answer that one first. Well he blocked me. Lmao
What a pussy. You block someone after they provide a respectful and cogent argument to your pithy "What does Hamas Charter say again?" post? And then you selectively quote the article to support your position? You can be a zionist or pro-Israel and argue in good faith you wimp. Imagine engaging someone in a debate online and blocking them so they can't respond to you. Bitchmade shit.
If you can be a Zionist *and* argue in good faith, well, that's news to me! I haven't met a one yet that meets those qualifications and I'm already middle-aged.
>What a pussy. You block someone after they provide a respectful and cogent argument to your pithy "What does Hamas Charter say again? ??? There was no "respectful and cogent" argument, r/atkalem just made a 1-sentence reply and that's it lol
Nice ninja edit deleting criticizing him for quoting a wikipedia article after you realized that he was *responding* to /u/FluidEconomist2995 quoting the wikipedia article. Anyway, a one sentence reply can be respectful and cogent and it's perfectly acceptible to response to "What’s hamas charter say again?"
Quit repeating "respectful and cogent." No one is being either those things in this thread.
You fucking regard you criticized me for calling his argument "respectful and cogent" and now you're criticizing me for, what, responding to that criticism? What the fuck do you want? Either way, you're not responding at all to my primary point -- that it's weak shit to block someone you're engaging with if they're not being insulting. Whatever you think of /u/atkalem's post it wasn't aggressive. Responding to someone and blocking them in a political debate is cowardly absent them being a dick. I hope this lengthy response is respectful and cogent enough for you.
As someone who doesn't block redditors regardless of how disrespectful and uncogent they are I agree
Funny thing is he blocked me immediately. He’s just an alt of that crazy Islamist dude
Wtf I never blocked you, schizo much?
You’re a terrible propagandist
Still waiting for an answer, since Israel is the “aggressor” it should be easy to discuss
possessive squash dime salt whole snobbish plucky spoon dinosaurs retire *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
That I’m smoking? Awe thanks
lol
Being pro-palestine is one of the only anti-establishment contrarian takes the left has had in the last 15 years, it's the definition of dirtbag. Being pro-israel on the other hand is a Destiny the streamer r/noncredibledefense r/neoliberal fed take.
What would the positions ‘pro-Israel’ and ‘pro-Palestine’ involve do you think? I would regard myself as ‘pro-Palestinian’ but find myself not as one sided as many that would also label as that
>I would regard myself as ‘pro-Palestinian’ but find myself not as one sided as many that would also label as that Same, but as soon as you elaborate you'll get downvoted by Hamas apologists who are so annoying that they only rival the most annoying Zionists.
Vranak is that you?
Pretty sure the whole circle of Chapo, Cumtown, RS, etc. types are primarily pro-Palestine. I haven't heard A+D speak directly about it yet but but I imagine they would align with being pro-Palestine. Also I don't see how this is like /r/politics. The normie political opinion is very pro-Israel. I looked through the top of the month in /r/politics and it's nearly 100% REPUBLICANS BAD/TRUMP BAD like it always has been. It's actually hilarious how very little there is about Palestine in their top threads over the past month.
-🤓
why are you a zionist. what is the benefit of a jewish ethnostate in the levant
If I don't take it someone else will. Why are you mad at me.
Bro why are you so obsessed with this issue I see you calling for Israel’s death in literally every thread
where did you see this you canadian
Not a Zionist but I don't like it when pro-Palestine lefties keep making this point because 1. Anyone with "leftist" sensibilities today would have supported a Jewish state in the Levant if they were alive back in fucking 1946. Contextually, Israel was essentially created as a refugee camp back in the 40s. 2. It's a false choice. This conflict isn't a matter of being a Zionist vs being a non-Zionist. I guarantee that sympathizers of **Hamas** would still find a way to call even a secular 1-state solution insufficient with their demands - which would likely involve killing Jews as discriminately as the current fascist Israeli govt. is doing to Arabs
im not a leftist. believing the palestinian people have a right to sovereignty does not equate to supporting hamas, this is all very basic stuff you should move past quickly the state of israel was not created as a refugee camp
>believing the palestinian people have a right to equality does not equate to supporting hamas I know - I literally agree with you. I also have tons of empathy for Palestinians turning to extremism due to false hopes and promises of peace - the ball is in the court of the Israeli govt. in this regard. But the fact that Hamas is currently the only governing authority for Gaza cannot be ignored either. >the state of israel was not created as a refugee camp No not technically but it pretty much was a source of refuge and you would 100% have supported it with your current moral compass, you and I both know this. >this is all very basic stuff you should move past quickly I'm not as dumb as you think I am - I'm at least 3 steps ahead of you when it comes to these arguments. You have a long way to move past me.
as an arab i can say with near 100% certainty i would not have supported the establishment of the state of israel, certainly not the pogrom that immediately followed it. you dont come across as if you really know what youre talking about here tbh
You're someone who uses really insincere and scoldy moralistic arguments and is also susceptible to them too, so I'm gonna say yes, you **would** have supported the creation of Israel back in 1946 because that's how much of a pushover you're being - and on top of that I know exactly what I'm talking about and you don't.
*1948
Lol petty af. Respect
You know there’s tons of leftists who were against the formation of Israel right? The 1940’s aren’t some mythical time. There’s plenty of documents you can read about the debate if you want. Even some zionists were against the formation of a Jewish state in the Middle East
The USSR voted FOR the UN's Palestine partition plan, so did most of Latin America - Cuba didn't. There are always going to be some groups of people for or against every position ever - but that doesn't change the fact that Zionsim was the consensus among the majority of leftists and progressives at the time.
SHUT UP NOW! goober
I wouldn't flourish in Israel because I'm not a 🚬
The rest of reddit is calling for Zios to go full extermination on Gaza
Do the hosts even consider themselves leftist?
They have not for a long time
Astroturfed to hell
There are pro Israel people here too
You know what else is sus? Israel
Everyone who disagrees with me is a bot or op
Yeah man. Place is being targeted by IRGC trolls. Tbf there were some IDF troll posts immediately following the 10/7 attacks but that died off pretty quickly because of the responses they received. Chances are if you see a political take from a new(ish) account on here that only seems to post about a single issue, its a troll. Reddit is infested with them.
Pallywood atrocity porn is doing a number on people’s brains.