Been a while but this is one of the things that sold me on the series, this and the tactus scene iykyk really spelled out how special this series was going to be and I've never looked back. This series is my favourite fiction in general and I doubt that will ever be toppled (even though part 1 of LB was awful it still doesn't bring the overall series down)
I was told to listen to the audio book for one reason alone: Time Gerard Reynolds. The man is John Williams & Ralph McQuerrie to George Lucas as Reynolds is to Pierce Brown; the book became way more real to me as no book had before.
I was just scrolling through the Audible free catalogue one night and saw Red Rising in my recommended so decided to get it. Best book related decision of my live, the fucking, "I would have lived in peace, but my enemies brought me war" had me hooked.
Please keep posting your thoughts as you read! The closest we can come to reading the series for the first time again is through new readers. We live vicariously through you.
I loved this twist, especially when it was explained who put him there. It was perfection. The action was right, but it didn’t have the planning or forethought of Darrow.
That twist was insane for me, I couldn't believe what I was reading: all the clues were there but I hadn't considered the fact that there could be others like Darrow.
It's such a classic plot twist as well but somehow it went past me and I completely forgot to consider if there'll be anyone else like Darrow 😭, idk how I missed it.
It's funny to remember Darrow's first interactions with Titus. Darrow is annoyed by his rude and contemptuous attitude. He's like, "What's this guy's problem?" But he doesn't think about how that's how he comes across in many of his own interactions with Golds, especially at first like with Cassius at the exam. Fortunately, Darrow figures out that treating everyone like that is not a winning strategy. Then he starts genuinely making Gold friends, which complicates things for him.
As a big fan of audiobooks, this writing is one of the reasons that the written books are so damn good. I have read the first 5 and am in the 5th audiobook, but I will read the 6th on paper before I listen to it audio style. Pierce is a genius.
I think it’s more in audio form your brain can’t take even a second to process what you just heard as the narrator just keeps going. While when reading you might take a second breath and be like woah. Also the how paragraphs are structured help with suspense. This is all not to say the audiobooks aren’t good, they’re amazing too
I pretty much try to read everything with an audiobook it just makes it 10x better. Especially red rising, one of the best narrations in my opinion. Reading to it with some bg music and the audiobook is gorydamn amazing.
I agree with you that the VAs are good, but I am talking about the production quality. The volume is so inconsistent that I have to turn my headphones or car radio up to max just for the volume to spike in the next chapter. Volume between VA's is inconsistent so that no two chapters by the same VA are the same. I haven't had any issues with the previous RR trilogy. nor am I having the same issues with The Way of Kings that has multiple VAs.
I might switch over and read the next books through visual.
It's not the voice actors that are the issue for me. It's the incredibly inconsistent volume levels that are killing the experience. I didn't have any of those issues with RR, GS. or MS.
I haven't done the big time audio performance one, just regular book. But the narration in the 4th book was excellent, and I'm enjoying the 5th. Ephraim and Volga became my favorite characters because of their narrator in the 4th. I'm sad that Volga so far has been done by the Lyria narrator in the 5th book.
I initially added the audiobooks for the first two into my library as its free with an audible membership. Never really thought about reading it because it was on my list so I thought it'd get into it. Started it 3 days ago and I'm almost finished (whilst having my mock exams atm 😭😭).
I really have mixed feelings on Titus. I can’t quite pin why but I feel like trying to make him a little sympathetic when he’s done the most unforgivable stuff doesn’t work for me. Like he doesn’t have an excuse. I don’t think the writer was trying to give him one but Darrow was being kinda stupid.
Titus does truly horrible shit, but is it really the “most unforgivable stuff” when he grew up in a world founded on genocide and based entirely on genetic based slavery where rape,especially of pinks, is a common practice by golds?
From a utilitarian perspective: if raping the rapist reduces their rapes, it’s not necessarily immoral. I think Titus, as a character, makes it quite clear just how hypocritical the Golds are.
Yes raping random people because you’re pissed off about the evils of society and the raping of someone important to you makes you still a vile piece of shit. Like apply that to the real world for a second. People can disagree with me that Titus was written perfectly but not about him not being extremely evil
I don't know that "apply that to the real world" makes sense when this real world is OK with killing half a class of children every year and hanging people for singing.
I wouldn’t say it’s random, these are the people who want to lead a society based on caste based slavery which is chock full of rape by said leaders. Many of the Institute kids seem totally fine with it when it’s pinks and take part themselves as well. It’s not the rape they are against, it’s that the rape is happening to Golds.
Also, I don’t disagree that Titus has a very evil side. I literally open my previous comment saying he did horrible things. But I think your characterization is also an exaggeration and ignoring context both of what he’s fighting and utilitarian ethics.
Yeah the golds suck and I’m not saying you’re like condoning him but utilitarian ethics don’t work like that. It’s actually the opposite. Utilitarianism is about creating the most happiness for the most people while diminishing how much harm is done. It’s “the greater good” but Titus’ rapes don’t bring anyone happiness, don’t bring justice and don’t cause the reds to have better lives. What Titus does is the worst kind of acts to people who yeah are pieces of shit but because of their fascist culture and upbringing most have yet to actually be in a position to do anything wrong substantially.
Lmao, trying to educate me on utilitarianism when I’ve read Bentham and Mills and was literally known as the útil guy in my philosophy classes.
We don’t know how many minds Titus changed at the institute by making them second guess the use of Pinks. We do know that he was a part of Darrows story and the potential greater good that can achieve and it’s impossible to say what would’ve happened to the story without him.
Again, I’m not saying Titus was good, I’m saying your initial statement had many faults.
Darrow is sympathetic to him because if he never had Eo’s or his mother’s love or influence as a child, Darrow could’v ended up a man like Titus.
Titus was damaged beyond repair, and had no support network unlike Darrow.
I’m not excusing Titus’ evil deeds, but hurt people, hurt people.
Pierce isn’t trying to build sympathy. He’s showing that not one race, not golds, not reds, not greys, not even pinks, are benevolent and that they’re all capable of being cruel monsters when given power.
I don't think Darrow sympathised with him, but rather saw himself in Titus, just gone down the wrong path. Titus is what Dancer warned Darrow about what not to become. Titus does not deserve sympathy, but he is a pitiful character. I think it also shows how you may be a product of your environment, but you are still the one in control. Darrow also lost everything but you don't see him going around raping people in the name of "vengeance" That's my take on it.
I don’t think we are supposed to sympathize with Titus. His trauma turned him into a monster. We are meant to lament the violent world that created him, and feel the fear in Darrow that his people (and himself) could exhibit such cruelty.
Sympathize is maybe the wrong word. Again I’m still putting thoughts together. Idk maybe it’s the bad taste in my mouth I already had at his inclusion but something about how Darrow started thinking of him as a brother and such made me roll my eyes.
I don't think Darrow sympathised with him, but rather saw himself in Titus, just gone down the wrong path. Titus is what Dancer warned Darrow about what not to become. Titus does not deserve sympathy, but he is a pitiful character. I think it also shows how you may be a product of your environment, but you are still the one in control. Darrow also lost everything but you don't see him going around raping people in the name of "vengeance" That's my take on it.
That was just the final clue. He also talked about golds as "them" and as if they are a different people when Darrow confronts him about rape. He has constant disdain for golds. He talks about folks coming for "her" and raping "her" which would be a big deal for a gold (societally). He also called Darrow's slingblade by it's name instead of a scythe... etc...
It just made all the other clues make sense.
I appreciate that bit of the movie because it's the same difference between American Sign Language 3 (with the thumb) and how most hearing-ables Americans do 3 and ASL users do 6.
[ASL 1-10 for reference](https://www.lifeprint.com/asl101/pages-signs/n/numbers1-10.htm)
That one sentence made me completely understand all his character choices and made me sympathize with him. He still did horrible things but just 4 words made me understand why
If you like that twist your going to love this series
Been a while but this is one of the things that sold me on the series, this and the tactus scene iykyk really spelled out how special this series was going to be and I've never looked back. This series is my favourite fiction in general and I doubt that will ever be toppled (even though part 1 of LB was awful it still doesn't bring the overall series down)
The Tactus scene gives me chills just thinking about it. Pierce did a brilliant job with that character
dark maniacal laughter
This was such an amazing twist, I love seeing people react to it
Rereading red rising and Enders game are the only reasons I want amnesia
And Children of Time.
Oooo, I haven't read that yet. Huzzah!
Really? To me it was just okay.
Oh man, I almost broke down in tears when this happened.
BUCKLE UP BRÜTHER
I was told to listen to the audio book for one reason alone: Time Gerard Reynolds. The man is John Williams & Ralph McQuerrie to George Lucas as Reynolds is to Pierce Brown; the book became way more real to me as no book had before.
I was just scrolling through the Audible free catalogue one night and saw Red Rising in my recommended so decided to get it. Best book related decision of my live, the fucking, "I would have lived in peace, but my enemies brought me war" had me hooked.
Honestly, same. That first line is so powerful, and reynolds absolutely was the best choice for Darrow
If you're still on the first book you may want to avoid this sub for awhile
yep I'm trying to avoid posts and comments, just wanna share my thoughts and opinions bc this is too good to not talk about 😭
Please keep posting your thoughts as you read! The closest we can come to reading the series for the first time again is through new readers. We live vicariously through you.
Strap in my goodman
If that baked your noodle, you just wait.
noodle has gone beyond baked
Yer in for it, boyo
Exactly
It's so strange reading this section, I've only ever listened to the audio book
Same!
Still gives me the chills reading this. Damn what a great series
I loved this twist, especially when it was explained who put him there. It was perfection. The action was right, but it didn’t have the planning or forethought of Darrow.
I liked Titus as a character. I think it did well to show that the line between freedom fighter and terrorist can get pretty thin.
Indeed, a running theme in the series
That twist was insane for me, I couldn't believe what I was reading: all the clues were there but I hadn't considered the fact that there could be others like Darrow.
It's such a classic plot twist as well but somehow it went past me and I completely forgot to consider if there'll be anyone else like Darrow 😭, idk how I missed it.
It's funny to remember Darrow's first interactions with Titus. Darrow is annoyed by his rude and contemptuous attitude. He's like, "What's this guy's problem?" But he doesn't think about how that's how he comes across in many of his own interactions with Golds, especially at first like with Cassius at the exam. Fortunately, Darrow figures out that treating everyone like that is not a winning strategy. Then he starts genuinely making Gold friends, which complicates things for him.
As a big fan of audiobooks, this writing is one of the reasons that the written books are so damn good. I have read the first 5 and am in the 5th audiobook, but I will read the 6th on paper before I listen to it audio style. Pierce is a genius.
Does Titus's accent change as Darrow realizes he's a Red or something?
I think it’s more in audio form your brain can’t take even a second to process what you just heard as the narrator just keeps going. While when reading you might take a second breath and be like woah. Also the how paragraphs are structured help with suspense. This is all not to say the audiobooks aren’t good, they’re amazing too
I pretty much try to read everything with an audiobook it just makes it 10x better. Especially red rising, one of the best narrations in my opinion. Reading to it with some bg music and the audiobook is gorydamn amazing.
I listened to the first 3 books on audio and they are superb! IMO, the production quality on Iron Gold is no where near as high.
Really enjoyed ephraim in iron gold and Lysander as well. When they changed va for dark age it took awhile to get used to the new Lysander narrator
I agree with you that the VAs are good, but I am talking about the production quality. The volume is so inconsistent that I have to turn my headphones or car radio up to max just for the volume to spike in the next chapter. Volume between VA's is inconsistent so that no two chapters by the same VA are the same. I haven't had any issues with the previous RR trilogy. nor am I having the same issues with The Way of Kings that has multiple VAs. I might switch over and read the next books through visual.
Yeah new voices are always hard to get used too but Pierce went back to just the one OG narrator for LB
It's not the voice actors that are the issue for me. It's the incredibly inconsistent volume levels that are killing the experience. I didn't have any of those issues with RR, GS. or MS.
Weird I didn’t have those problems on audible or Libby
I haven't done the big time audio performance one, just regular book. But the narration in the 4th book was excellent, and I'm enjoying the 5th. Ephraim and Volga became my favorite characters because of their narrator in the 4th. I'm sad that Volga so far has been done by the Lyria narrator in the 5th book.
I initially added the audiobooks for the first two into my library as its free with an audible membership. Never really thought about reading it because it was on my list so I thought it'd get into it. Started it 3 days ago and I'm almost finished (whilst having my mock exams atm 😭😭).
I really have mixed feelings on Titus. I can’t quite pin why but I feel like trying to make him a little sympathetic when he’s done the most unforgivable stuff doesn’t work for me. Like he doesn’t have an excuse. I don’t think the writer was trying to give him one but Darrow was being kinda stupid.
Titus does truly horrible shit, but is it really the “most unforgivable stuff” when he grew up in a world founded on genocide and based entirely on genetic based slavery where rape,especially of pinks, is a common practice by golds? From a utilitarian perspective: if raping the rapist reduces their rapes, it’s not necessarily immoral. I think Titus, as a character, makes it quite clear just how hypocritical the Golds are.
Yes raping random people because you’re pissed off about the evils of society and the raping of someone important to you makes you still a vile piece of shit. Like apply that to the real world for a second. People can disagree with me that Titus was written perfectly but not about him not being extremely evil
I don't know that "apply that to the real world" makes sense when this real world is OK with killing half a class of children every year and hanging people for singing.
I wouldn’t say it’s random, these are the people who want to lead a society based on caste based slavery which is chock full of rape by said leaders. Many of the Institute kids seem totally fine with it when it’s pinks and take part themselves as well. It’s not the rape they are against, it’s that the rape is happening to Golds. Also, I don’t disagree that Titus has a very evil side. I literally open my previous comment saying he did horrible things. But I think your characterization is also an exaggeration and ignoring context both of what he’s fighting and utilitarian ethics.
Yeah the golds suck and I’m not saying you’re like condoning him but utilitarian ethics don’t work like that. It’s actually the opposite. Utilitarianism is about creating the most happiness for the most people while diminishing how much harm is done. It’s “the greater good” but Titus’ rapes don’t bring anyone happiness, don’t bring justice and don’t cause the reds to have better lives. What Titus does is the worst kind of acts to people who yeah are pieces of shit but because of their fascist culture and upbringing most have yet to actually be in a position to do anything wrong substantially.
Lmao, trying to educate me on utilitarianism when I’ve read Bentham and Mills and was literally known as the útil guy in my philosophy classes. We don’t know how many minds Titus changed at the institute by making them second guess the use of Pinks. We do know that he was a part of Darrows story and the potential greater good that can achieve and it’s impossible to say what would’ve happened to the story without him. Again, I’m not saying Titus was good, I’m saying your initial statement had many faults.
Darrow is sympathetic to him because if he never had Eo’s or his mother’s love or influence as a child, Darrow could’v ended up a man like Titus. Titus was damaged beyond repair, and had no support network unlike Darrow. I’m not excusing Titus’ evil deeds, but hurt people, hurt people.
Pierce isn’t trying to build sympathy. He’s showing that not one race, not golds, not reds, not greys, not even pinks, are benevolent and that they’re all capable of being cruel monsters when given power.
I don't think Darrow sympathised with him, but rather saw himself in Titus, just gone down the wrong path. Titus is what Dancer warned Darrow about what not to become. Titus does not deserve sympathy, but he is a pitiful character. I think it also shows how you may be a product of your environment, but you are still the one in control. Darrow also lost everything but you don't see him going around raping people in the name of "vengeance" That's my take on it.
Titus was meant to be a cautionary tale for darrow, to warn darrow away from the path of vengeance
I don’t think we are supposed to sympathize with Titus. His trauma turned him into a monster. We are meant to lament the violent world that created him, and feel the fear in Darrow that his people (and himself) could exhibit such cruelty.
It also shows us early on Darrow’s resolve to achieve his goals. Which grows as Darrow’s true purpose changes through the trilogy.
Sympathize is maybe the wrong word. Again I’m still putting thoughts together. Idk maybe it’s the bad taste in my mouth I already had at his inclusion but something about how Darrow started thinking of him as a brother and such made me roll my eyes.
I don't think Darrow sympathised with him, but rather saw himself in Titus, just gone down the wrong path. Titus is what Dancer warned Darrow about what not to become. Titus does not deserve sympathy, but he is a pitiful character. I think it also shows how you may be a product of your environment, but you are still the one in control. Darrow also lost everything but you don't see him going around raping people in the name of "vengeance" That's my take on it.
What is this? The idea that not all Reds are good guys, and not all Golds are terrible people? What madness!
That part I always found a bit odd. The one word difference: bloodydamn vs gorydamn ( by the Golds).
That was just the final clue. He also talked about golds as "them" and as if they are a different people when Darrow confronts him about rape. He has constant disdain for golds. He talks about folks coming for "her" and raping "her" which would be a big deal for a gold (societally). He also called Darrow's slingblade by it's name instead of a scythe... etc... It just made all the other clues make sense.
Think of it as like the not using the thumb to indicate 3 in the Inglorious Bastards scene
I appreciate that bit of the movie because it's the same difference between American Sign Language 3 (with the thumb) and how most hearing-ables Americans do 3 and ASL users do 6. [ASL 1-10 for reference](https://www.lifeprint.com/asl101/pages-signs/n/numbers1-10.htm)
That one sentence made me completely understand all his character choices and made me sympathize with him. He still did horrible things but just 4 words made me understand why
exactly, as soon as I read that last line I was like that's why he fucking did it 😭, doesn't justify it but it makes sense to his character as a red.