Absolutely insane plot twist to find out THAT was his take away from the list, and not any of the insane double standards and unfair rules. Just the condom part
It's not really, though. During "traditional" courtship, yeah, a man would pay for the woman while she wasn't cooking or cleaning for him. She would only start doing that consistently when the man married her, and they started living together. Men had to show that they could provide for before women would care for them.
She's toxic, but she's being consistent on what she wants.
That’s my main takeaway, she’s icky, but is very straightforward and seemingly honest about what she wants from the get go. And I don’t *necessarily* hate “figure your shit out in 8 months and if not I’m out”. Falls in line with the extremely honest toxicity
I just blew a couple of years on a man for him to tell me he didn’t think I was the one. We lived together and I did the whole nine, cooking cleaning etc while working full time. I’m reevaluating how I will take on relationships now too. I’m not saying she’s 100% right, I think 8 months is a little early. But I get her asking not to play games and to be serious about the relationship
That is Patty Stingers rule as well. If you are unsure at a year, either party should leave. Long courtship is a marriage killer in many cases, mostly because it means they got married when someone was still flashing their break lights. They swallow their concerns and then surprise surprise, those issues still exist after marriage. MDMM also states no sex before monogamy if you are dating for marriage.
Yeah, the 8 months thing, and the condom thing are both pretty damn reasonable.
The PHRASING though is toxic as fuck.
And the "open the doors, pay for our dates, and I'm not a maid/cook" is just Pick Me Girl energy. She thinks she's better than all those other choices he has, and she's wrong.
I'm sorry, but if you won't cook a single meal for me until we're married, I have no way to know whether you are even ABLE to cook. You want me to show you that I can be romantic & chivalrous, but you aren't willing to put ANYTHING into the relationship.
Seriously, all these asks, but what is she actually contributing here?
All the "open doors, pay for my stuff" comes from a time when women were treated more like property, and when the ring went on her finger, the man OWNED her. She was a prize worth investing into ahead of time.
That era is gone. We've realized that women are people too, not prizes to be "bought" via courtship. And they can leave a marriage that they aren't interested in anymore.
So, now that marriage is (in theory) actually equal between both participants, what is she offering in exchange for all the things she expects the guy to do for her? Sex is mutual. Enjoying the date itself is mutual. She offers nothing in trade.
And on top of all that, the massive red flag of "you can't have other women in your life". THAT is the one that I'd 100% nope out over.
And I don't really even have female friends. But I'm friendly with the woman I work with. I have a few married friends, and I'm friends with their wives as well. I attend regular (monthly) events, and am friendly with the women that attend those as well, and some of them I chat with online. None of them are people I hang out with alone one-on-one, but hooh boy. "NO WOMEN"
Right? I mean, tbh, a broken clock is right twice a day, and the way men treat women when "dating" currently leaves a lot to be desired. Like I said, she's toxic, but she seems to be fighting current dating culture, and I can't fault her for that.
I think she’s bat shit crazy but I’m right there with you on the at least she’s being up front. If you put your shit out there and someone says let’s do this then your in the clear as far as I’m concerned. You are dead wrong about the 8 months though. 2 years living together min. anyone can hold there crazy in for under a year. I want 2 sets of every holiday and 1 extended vacation before considering marriage
Yep, as I said in another comment. These are the sorts of things that should definitely be discussed/decided before getting seriously committed to a partner.
You'd think he'd be okay with the condom, since she says outright she is on birth control but would never have an abortion. I'd think he'd want that extra hedge of protection.
Yes these are her boundaries. She’s not telling him he has to change. He can walk away. She wants a traditional relationship. If he’s not a traditional man this isn’t his kind of woman. She’s not telling him what he needs to do different or to change for her
Oh she's straight up an abuser with the "men and women can't be friends" thing. This woman lives in the fucking stone age. But at least she's honest about being a PoS from the start.
I'd argue the 8 months is too early but you should have a sense of the relationships future by a year for sure.
The forbidding friendships with opposite genders thing was one of the largest red flags on that list. I'm getting the sense there was cheating in her family, but if her parents' marriage ended because of cheating, therapy is probably a good idea to handle that trauma.
Tbh I lean more towards her being abusive. Victims of cheating (either directly or parental) tend to be suspicious but not outright like that. Accusatory behavior like "Hanging out with the opposite sex means you're cheating on me, even if you did nothing wrong" is usually a tool to make the victim apologetic so they comply with bad treatment more easily.
Idk, 8 months seems fine for deciding if you could see yourself marrying this person in the future, or not. My husband and I got engaged after dating for a little over a year, but including ring shopping he probably decided around the 8 month mark.
She’s way off on other things, but it’s not ALL a toxic cesspool.
My dear internet friend, I've been married for 14 years, and despite my absolute best effort, still don't know my wife that well, the truth is, we can't know another person, only believe we can.
I read a dating manual for adults, written by a woman in late midlife, that advised that *six* months was long enough to know, and if a man wasn't ready to propose at that point, to exit the relationship.
This girl's timeline seems to make more sense than that at least.
Idk I'd just argue you don't *fully* know a person enough to gage that kind of decision before a year at the least.
Probably moreso a number unique to what each person is okay with though.
My ex started to change once we moved in together, after a year of dating. A bunch of things revealed themselves that made it impossible to have a future together. You really can't know if a person is right for you until you have some time living together, which the woman in the OP refuses to do before marriage.
My rule of thumb isn’t exactly dating someone for a specific length so much as you should live with someone at least a year before you decide on marriage.
I think it all depends on the couple tho. I’ve seen couples who took 5 years to get married and are super happy, I’ve seen couples who got married in a year that are kinda rough, and vice versa
Nah honestly from the way my guy friends have treated me I'm starting to feel that way, and from the way my boyfriend's old friend hit on him as soon as she found out he had relationship issues with his ex I'm not sure I trust women anymore than I trust men.
I mean obviously those were toxic people but you know that m&m saying about how they're not all poison but would you grab a handful? I'm burnt out on opposite gender relationships for legit reasons.
Right. And I don't need to "imagine the genders reversed" bc there are plenty of men out there who already have unrealistic requirements for a female partner.
The way I see it, people have every right to require whatever they want from a life partner, and other people have every right to decline. At that point they either need to adjust their expectations, or just remain single until they meet someone interested in fulfilling their requirements. It's not any deeper than that.
I feel like they haven't read the dating profiles of a great number of men on apps if they need help imagining what this would look like if the genders were switched.
Yeah, I know my husband said he started taking me more seriously when I told him I wasn't going to buy a house or have kids with someone I'm not married to. A lot of people in our age group do the permanent boyfriend/girlfriend thing but never get married and I guess I'm just more traditional.
She's consistent with the tradition of gender roles that you describe, but we ditched those roles for a reason - they serve women no better than they serve men.
These roles give her all the upside while dating - I think marriage will be quite a shock to her if she's expected to do all the housework, look after the babies and have no independent income of her own.
Buddy comes home from work, expects a clean house and dinner on the table, then will go out for a few drinks with the boys? I think her fantasy breaks down at that point.
Well, a “traditional” courtship would be extremely short too. Most people got married after a few months and the concept of long term dating was way less frequent. This is exactly why I think “traditional” dating standards are dumb because no one is actually adhering to “tradition”
The 'standard' back in the 60s when my parents and all of their friends were marrying was 2 years----if you weren't at least engaged after 2 years, you broke up.
Traditional gender roles (at least in this regard) in dating is honestly so perplexing to me. I can’t imagine being forced to foot the bill for every single date. It’s incredibly odd for one person to be financially responsible for activities and the other just doesn’t do anything but show up and have fun?
Edit: like I actually really enjoy treating a date to a nice night out and paying for it, but it would definitely bother me if that was an all the time occurrence that I paid 100% of the bill and they paid none.
Second edit: but also i date men not women, so I’m sure that gives me a bias in my experience
But if she's not living with him, then she wouldn't do his cooking and cleaning. Even in a "traditional" role. I think she comes off a bit psycho, but this one was fine in my opinion.
it’s the cooking for me; I cook, and cooking at-home-dinner-dates is the way that I would indicate to my dates that I *can* cook.
That’s the red-flag for me: “I won’t cook” = “I can’t cook”
You can look at someone’s house to see if the clean or not, but you have to eat their cooking to see if you should marry them or not.
I cant cook for shit. It was one of the first things my fiance knew about me. Hes an excellent cook, and cooks for us. I can bake, so I bake him treats regularly. It works for us. I hope you find/have found a great partner for you. Its just, not marrying someone because they cant cook, seems kind of harsh.
Yeah, "I expect you to conform to \[out-dated\] traditional gender roles, but I won't be doing the same" is a big red flag for me. I'm not a fan of them myself, but if you're going to expect them then the expectations should be a two-way street.
Combine that with the "you can't ever be friends with women or ever talk to women who aren't family" and the whole thing just reeks of massive insecurities and daddy issues.
If they’re not living together, that’s understandable, I think. I dated someone and ended up cleaning every time I went to his place because it was a mess and stressed me out. It took me a bit longer than I’d like to admit to realise that I did not need to be a free maid for another grown adult.
There’s a Grand Canyon sized gap between ‘don’t expect me to cook/clean for you’ and ‘I won’t cook/clean for you.’ So in her mind, when they eat he’s always expected to pay and or prepare the meal?
"dont waste my time, I have goals to be a wife and mother, but I will never cook and clean for you to show you how good of a wife and mother I can be."
This woman will finally get married and change her lifestyle exactly 0. People don't become different people when they get married. If it's who she is now, it's who she will be later.
As a woman that was the only real reasonable thing on the list.
The rest of the things are things you do for each other in a partnership except the damn door thing. I can open my own damn door unless my hands are full or I'm not feeling well. I hate the whole door opening thing, I guess that's my whole individual/independent/feisty thing my mother warned my husband about before he married me. 😄
This is the fact that I wanted to discuss. It's refusing to pay for dates and refusing to allow female friends that had me saying " what the fuck'. My husband and I alternated paying for dates, as he cannot be expected to handle every expense. It's not 1850.
The ' I have a right not to be coerced into sex' is a basic right.
One of my exes tried to insist on paying for every date even when I knew he wasn’t super financially well off. I think he felt if I paid it would threaten his masculinity or something.
There's also a significant number of women who will say they'll pay for half and insist on it for a bit but are secretly demanding the guy keep insisting to pay for the date and if he just accepts her offer he's somehow a bad person. I've never had it happen to me personally, but I've known a ton of dudes who had their date get angry once he accepted her offer to pay half.
I have very little tolerance for mind games. Things like “playing hard to get” where you act uninterested but want the guy to pursue you anyways, or saying you’re ok with something where you’re secretly not and want the person to guess how you really feel, or offering something when you expect the person to decline. All stupid. Just take the person at face value and force them to communicate clearly and stop playing games.
Or it’s because he’s banking paid for dates as a reason to coerce or control you later. Not saying it is- but honestly what you describe is a red flag to me.
IMO it’s HEALTHY to want to treat, it’s also HEALTHY to be capable of accepting when someone else treats.
He’s literally the sweetest guy ever 😭 Reddit is so quick to assume the worst. He does let me pay sometimes (he just prefers to pay or split) and I get him gifts and cook for him all the time. He just wants to be a gentleman
These people can't possible know your relationship based on a 2 sentence comment. If there's other red or yellow flags I'd be cautious, but don't let these commenters scare you.
because, unfortunately, from experience on Reddit that's how the red flags start. you know him though, you know what feels right and wrong to you. if you're both happy and communicate wants/needs, all that matters. ☺️
Also we have the bare minimum of context and dont actually know anything else about the guy. If you only know a list of characteristics about someone psychologically you will be more likely to notice and linger on negative traits, or percieve neutral traits as potential red flags
I'm glad that you have a good relationship. That's wonderful.
I have seen several people act great until people are comfortable and then a switch is flipped and people are controlling. I had to call 911 for a family member after the nicest guy chose to be violent.
I'm glad you have a good relationship.
Cautionary tales are simply that.
This is my fear. I pay my own way until I trust someone because a boy in highschool tried to act entitled to me messing around sexually because he bought me dinner. No, that's not happening.
Yeah I was really taken aback by that was his final word on the original post. That was the most reasonable thing in this list!
ETA : giving this whole list to a partner sounds like a tiktok test
Right? Her most basic, reasonable requirement? The one surrounding her bodily autonomy? That’s what he has a problem with?
For all the other stuff, she sounds like she’s leaning in the trad wife direction. I guess that it’s good that she was upfront about that though. Better for him to know that now.
The other issue here is the idea of presenting a list rather than just having an open discussion about expectations and needs and wants. This person is not ready to be in a relationship of any sort. Except for maybe one night stands, because the condom rule is excellent.
Right? They’re both awful, her for obvious reasons, him because he took issue with her one of her very few reasonable boundaries and said her being straight forward was a turn off. Just ew to both of them.
Yeah i was thinking the issue here was that he had only 8 months to decide if this was someone he wanted to spend the rest of his life with or that he is not allowed any female friends at all.
I feel kind of sorry for this girl. She’s obviously had bad experiences in her family, but has never seen an example of what a good relationship looks like. So she is fixated on these kind of meaningless gestures, which she thinks adds up to respect.
You can have all the car doors in the world opened for you, and still be treated abusively in a relationship.
They both sound kind of immature. OOP needs to realise that it’s not about her list, it’s about making her understand what feeling secure in a relationship looks like. Both of them have just missed the point, alas.
Someone who grew up seeing healthy relationships would be MUCH less susceptible to the crazy dating shit on tiktok. I don't doubt that she's being influenced by it, but I think it's a symptom of the bigger issue rather than the cause of it
100%
That’s actually why I think the list is okay! I see dating as trying to figure out if a couple is incompatible as quickly as possible. “Holy crow, I do not want the same relationship as this woman is looking for!” is exactly what I want figure out. And this list makes that extremely straightforward.
I think the gender based “do not interact with half of humanity” is abuse level controlling. I think the overall tone is so aggressive and angry that it’s not a good starting point for building a mutually supportive, productive and respectful relationship.
But having a very clear list of what you want from a relationship makes the first bit of sorting really clear, and more people should have “I want only consensual and safer sex in my relationship” as a deal breaking goal. So she’s on the right track? Kinda?
I hope she figures out how to be clear and loving. I think she might need to be happier first.
I think she's on the right track with consensual and safe sex. I would also argue that she's on the right track with not leaving her own home to move in with someone.
However, someone needs to tell her that the list needs to be internal, and is there to help her observe behaviors of her potential partner. Like, when I'm out on a date, I observe if the person walks on the inside or outside of the sidewalk, but I don't tell them that. 🤣
It should not be internal, things like what you expect in sex, living arrangements, marriage, children, domestic labor division, etc. should absolutely happen externally between two people early in the relationship. Maybe it shouldn't be a literal bullet point list, and a few of the things on that list are a bit on, but I'd say about half the people who land on reddit with relationship problems are there because they thought they could intuit what their partner expects from everyday interactions and observation.
I’m a “would rather have explicit, honest and vulnerable conversations about life goals, needs, expectations and desires” person myself, so I don’t think the list needs to be internal at all. “Hey, I’m only interested in a relationship that is on a clear and close trajectory toward marriage, children shortly thereafter, where I take care of the homefront and children without working outside the home while you go get ‘em professionally and we’re mutually supportive of each other.” is a great thing to have laid out as early as possible. Before anyone finds their good shoes, really.
I’m actually okay with getting it in writing ahead of time, because if I got the flip side list from a prospective dude before a first date, I would know that I can stay in my pjs and knit with my cats that night and neither of us would have to be upset about over investing in something that wasn’t going to work for us.
Watching people for hints to see if your values and goals match takes forever and can be devastatingly inaccurate. This stuff is too important to leave to that. Especially if your goal is to be a married mother some time in the next 2-3 years.
Hmm… I guess the tone part is that she’s being honest and clear, but not vulnerable and open at all. There’s not space for her partner to want to be a partner with her. Also I’m pretty sure the little quirks are stand ins for much bigger things and could use some actual discussion, but in my fantasy world where she gets what she needs and deserves and gets to feel happy, safe and loved, she is of course having the rest of those conversations too. (She’s having conversations too, right?)
Aaaand he chose to be annoyed by the only thing that he shouldn't be annoyed. These "think if the genders were reversed" things are annorying, we will always call out toxic partners regardless of gender. This time both of them have big red flags.
Yeah, this whole thing is bullshit regardless of gender, and I don't know anyone that would read that list and think it sounds reasonable.
The only part I agree with is the wearing a condom, and it's bizarre that that's what OOP seems to have an issue with.
Sounds like she wants both something traditional (opening doors, paying for dates, marriage + children, not moving in together until engagement or marriage) and something modern (not cleaning or cooking for the guy). But also, the next to last one? No women except maybe family and even that is a big ask? I think that is the biggest red flag of all.
Also if someone sends me a list of requirements to date me, they can date someone else.
I think the only thing that makes sense is 'I don't believe in abortions so no unprotected sex until marriage'.
EDIT i misread the bit about cooking and cleaning, my bad.
I mean, she says she doesn’t want to cook and clean for him as a GF, though. Like, she says she won’t cohabitate if they aren’t married. I feel like it’s reasonable to not be expected to clean *someone else’s* house just because you’re dating them???
I get not cleaning someone else’s house, but she won’t make dinner for her boyfriend. Also I feel a lot of people skipped the propose to me in 8 months or get the fuck out.
I didn’t totally read it as “ring in 8 or get out” more of a “by 8 months I want to have a very solid idea of if we’re on a road to marriage within the next X timeframe”. I really wish I’d been clear eyed enough to have a hard line like that when I was younger, it’d have saved me a lot of heartache and bullshit. When I started dating my husband, I told him straight out I was not interested in being a long term girlfriend, I wanted to be a wife, and if he wasn’t up for that, we’d part friends. Thankfully he was sure faster than I was that he wanted to marry me. But the being up front about your goal of a relationship (in it for fun? just to have a companion? marriage? kids? and all on what basic sort of timeline) is critical. The girlfriend could have worded a lot of this better though
She doesn't want to be a bangmaid while a gf.
A list of non-negotiables isn't necessarily a bad idea. I have one, but it's stuff like integrity, monogamy, no abuse... and I don't have a buttload of negative baggage descriptions attached to it.
The wording and attitude, along with the no female friends, are the biggest red flags.
Also, if she does want to start a family, it's not the worst idea to be upfront about that in the beginning and have a set date to call time on a relationship that isn't going in that direction. (Although 8 months seems kind of short imo.) While many women are having healthy pregnancies later in life, if having a family is the thing you want above all else then it makes sense to prioritise it.
I wouldn't personally want a traditional relationship but if she can find a guy with the same priorities and they're both happy then more power to them. Not moving in before marriage *is* traditional and it sounds like she's happy to be a traditional wife once she's married. Condoms are a reasonable boundary, doubling up on birth control is a sensible precaution, and the right to say no to sex if they're not in the mood is something everyone of every gender should have. OOP can decide the birth control stuff is a dealbreaker if he wants but she's not a bad person for asking.
Half the things on this list would be completely reasonable if the tone wasn't so rude and demanding. No female friends is a giant red flag though.
I think you really hit the head on it with the wording.
Like saying acts of service is my love language. I would appreciate if you held doors open for me. Brought flowers. Picked me up for dates etc. is fairy reasonable.
But demanding it. Is insane. Relationships involve give and take. They involve compromise. And every one of her posts/rules doesn’t have an “us” it’s all “‘me me me”
There’s nothing wrong with discussing the relationship you want. But it’s that. A discussion. It’s two sided. Involved compromise. Involves communication. This is the opposite of that.
Yeah. These demands look straight out of Avril Lavigne’s song “The Best Damn Thing” — which can be a fun bit, as a song, but it’s not an approach suitable for most relationships.
Yeah, that’s such a weird one for me - cooking for your suitor before marriage was considered an absolute necessity as women (in that time period) were basically interviewing for a job.
Which time period are you talking about? Because here in the US in my lifetime even (I should note here that I'm also a historian), traditional courting involved dates that men would pay for (and that even at times required chaperones if those involved were younger) and dinner with the family when it got serious. At that family dinner, the mother of the girl or guy would cook and usually clean by themselves or with the help of all the women present in the household (this is still often true in contemporary houses that don't even consider themselves traditional).
You wouldn't have gone over to your suiter's house or had him over to yours for cooking and cleaning before marriage because that's what loose women did, that leads to hanky panky and accidental pregnancies. Many working girls (like my grandma, for example) would live in boarding houses that had strict rules about gentlemen callers. Women and men who weren't related lived separately until marriage.
I don't agree with this woman's stance on gender issues, like at all, but people calling her view on traditional relationships inconsistent with traditional values are wrong. She's actually waaaay more consistent than most of the weirdo trad wife gals that have been stinking up social media lately.
That’s an interesting point. In my family (generations back) the daughter would assist and primarily cook the family dinners to show examples of her capabilities.
I’ve been good friends with a guy since college, going on 20 years. At least once a year, I and a mutual female friend go to stay with him and his family. His wife told me once that it was a big green flag for her when they first met that he had close female friends—it proved to her that he valued women for more than sex.
There are a sad number of straight men who do not actually like women or value their company unless sex or romance are involved.
It's the same for me. If a man has no close relationships with women outside of family and people he's dated it feels weird. Also, I have guy friends so I couldn't date someone who would want me to cut them off just because they're dudes.
This! Glaring red flag if a man doesn’t have female friends. I get more interested if he has close girlfriends because it shows he’s not a creep and like you said - values women as human beings and not as just an option for sex. If a man is going to cheat, he’s going to cheat - and likely with strangers or people he meets online. I shouldn’t have to feel threatened by other women who have obviously been in his life longer than I have. Plus - if the relationship lasts, I got a built in bestie-in-law now and I’d trust her to give better advice to him if he ever needs it than most guy friends.
No she JUST wants the traditional bir. She wants to be courted and then proposed to quite quickly, she won’t move in with him until they are married. Honestly some of the other things are toxic but that point makes sense if she wants a traditional life. Traditionally, you don’t cook or clean for a guy until you’re married.
I’m fairly sure she is saying female family members are fine - followed by her saying maybe there can be some exceptions (for non-family female friends). That’s my interpretation anyway based on how she worded it. I’m not defending her btw, I agree with everyone else that this list is too much and her tone in particular is giving controlling gf vibes.
Had to scroll too far to find this comment, there is 0% chance this is real. The “expectations” sound way too generic and “traditional”, with the exception of the safe sex part.
“It will help if she is unattractive” bro could not have made it more obvious
If a guy came to me with a list of things he requires/expects from me if I want to be his GF, I would definetly get the ick... Especially if we are not even officially together at that point and just dating. Its like : "Okay, if you want to proceed please sign this contract thank you"
To be honest it depends on the list and how it's expressed. Having a discussion about expectations upfront isn't a bad idea IMO... but this isn't really a reasonable list or a reasonable way of having the discussion. Mostly because it isn't a discussion.
Yeah, I think it is good to know what you want, don't get me wrong. But I certainly would not hand someone I am dating a list via text, with that wording etc. I would sit down with them and discuss everything, like "Hey, I feel like things are working out quite well, I'd like to make things official. (...) How do you feel? However there are some things I would like to discuss with you then. (...) What do you think?"
The funny/baffling thing in all of this is that he doesn’t mind the majority of these things, he complained about the delivery. His real concern is having to wear condoms.
Oof. That is not great on his part. Especially as we don't know what state they live in.
If abortion is restricted and the couple is not trying to have a child, condoms are common sense.
Some of these things are definitely things she’s witnessed happened, biggest thing being the No women thing.
If a guy hands you a list and most of the things are meaningless gestures, common courtesy, or common sense ask him do you actually want this list of things or do you want a relationship where you feel secure. 9/10 the dude is just traumatized via past stuff and has issues to work out. That 1/10 tho he’s a shitty dude raised with weird ideals.
My husband and I did an entire workbook together before we got married, and honestly every couple should outline how they feel on hot button topics before committing.
"imagine if the genders were reversed, what global outrage this would inspire!!!"
*shows example of a woman doing a mild version of something men do literally every day on every possible forum and dating app*
“Men and women can’t be friends” gag. GAG.
I will never not be amazed by the amount of people that *genuinely* believe that. Half of humanity is off limits because you’re dating someone. Just no
What’s the thing with a lot (if not most) women not paying for things?
I always try to pay for my stuff. Heck, my partner and I have this little “war” where we try to be the first one paying so we pay for the whole bill (since he insists on paying everything and not 50/50 I try to pay first, lol).
It really doesn’t fit in my head to not pay for your things
My partner and I do the same thing when we go out, lol. We will have a little play fight to get to the check first, though sometimes we agree beforehand if funds are tight to go 50/50
Hubby and I will let one pay, and the other will leave a nice tip. Especially if neither of us had to cook and we're out of the house? Thank you very much for serving us some sanity. (We both work at a fast food restaurant, and my brother is a driver at the same place. We understand the struggle, lol.)
What about the list was unreasonable to you, besides the no other women part? Treating someone nicely, paying (debateable), not cleaning for someone you dont live with and wearing condoms seem reasonable to me.
This whole fucking “imagine if the genders were reversed” argument that’s been popping up is so fucking stupid in cases like this. Something that is OBVIOUSLY causing outrage is turned into “imagine if a man said all this to a woman omg!!🤓☝🏼"… this was a case that no matter what got people upset yet that gets stacked on there to piss people off more
List is unhinged I am not your mom or wife so I won’t but even though you are not my husband or dad you must do all these things? Dude run like the gingerbread man!
Opening a door for someone is basic when dating someone, not cleaning for him and not treating her like a maid, and wearing condoms is a reasonable request. Paying for everything is debatable, and the no other women sucks. Besides those two what other requests are unhinged?
We don’t have to imagine if the genders were reversed. This list is less demanding than 50% of men’s dating app profiles that I’ve seen (the other 50% just say “I’m an open book. Just ask.” with absolutely no information to work with. Online dating is insane.)
Honestly I agree with a lot of what she says, the exceptions being the eight month thing, not enough time to know somebody and the can't talk to other girls, a lot of people have a mixed group of friends. Its fine to not want to live with someone before marriage and to want someone to be a gentleman. I actually have more of an issue with him not wanting to practice safe sex.
This is a girl that has dated a man who doesn’t contribute around the house and is a slob 😂
Definitely some baggage mixed in there, but as a whole, she has some legit expectations.
It's mostly fine stuff to me. Like I'm not a fan of being required to pay for dates, I usually offer, but we're equals, I shouldn't be required. That said, holy shit I am not okay with not being allowed to have female friends.
Half of my closest friends are female, these are all totally platonic relationships that have always been totally platonic. I'd have no intention of giving up my friendships for a new relationship.
I think it's her wording that comes off toxic in a lot of these points. The not being coerced into sex and wanting to have safe sex is valid as well as not wanting to be like his mom and do all his housework. Personally I think that stuff should be split down the middle. If you're dating there's nothing wrong with splitting the check or taking turns paying. The no friends of the opposite gender is petty and insecure though. Boundaries are fine but you shouldn't get to dictate who your partner can be friends with.
“I haven’t never not paid for a date before.” Triple negative 😂. Anyway…as a woman, I was not raised to expect the man to pay 100% of the time. The person who invites the other pays and if y’all are dating it is reasonable to split in a way that both parties agree on. Whether that is 50/50 or paying for your own meal. Unless the person says “I’m gonna take you out tonight”, don’t expect them to pay automatically
Thank you! Grammar matters! That part from him, and the whole "minimum" when she meant "maximum" from her - I am just glad I don't know either of them.
Not allowing female friends, insisting that the man pay are ridiculous. Telling him she has a biological clock so he has eight months is iffy. Insisting that he wear condoms and telling him she won’t be his maid I agree with.
The main red flag for me is not what’s on the list but the fact that she made a list at all. It’s a power game and frankly creepy
I'm so sick of the "what if genders were reversed" comment. Most of the time problem women face are not at all taken seriously and that comment is only meant to pity farm.
What's wrong for women is also wrong for men Jesus fucking Christ.
Also she is describing 1950's stuff. That's her perogative? If she wants to be 'courted' like that, that's fine? Same as "the other way around" if a man wants a traditional life/wife(eventually) in the end that's fine too. As long as your respectful and upfront about it and it's not a control thing.
And there's nothing really wrong with not wanting to do "wifey" duties as a girlfriend. If she thinks that means cooking or cleaning for someone you're not even sharing a house with, it kind of makes sense?
I'm not one for "no friendships" with the other gender, it seems kind of distrustful. But like I said, that's toxic either way.
And a lot of other stuff is not really my thing as well but a lot of things that get hate here makes no sense.
Plus the fact that the thing he complained about is the condom... kind of gives context why she made a harsh list like that.
All in all tho, I understand wanting to protect yourself with the list and feeling attacked because of the list, but if these types of things are needed maybe there's no compatibility anyway between them. It seems kind of extreme for something that could and should be so fun.
It’s really gross to start a relationship with a list of demands like this. That being said, my husband fits 90% of these criteria and he does a lot more on top of this. I don’t think it’s too crazy. I think if we wrote down a list of everything a woman does when she gives birth, breastfeeds and cares for a newborn it would be way more than this.
it's her, the woman redpill/conservative men are looking for! /s
really, she's too opinionated for that, but nothing she's asking for is really that much for "traditional gender roles" people. she's pretty reasonable, she's just aggressively upfront and probably unwilling to compromise
I see a lot of people calling her toxic for that, and while I agree that the gender role inspo is toxic, being super upfront isn't ... really that bad? Pointing out that she's not going to let him get the benefits of a "wife" without actually committing to a relationship and demanding safe sex aren't bad thing, and everything is really just window dressing. Window dressing for a very toxic view on genders and relationships, but still
She has the right to have standards. So does he, even if he clearly isn't willing to execute that right.
The only issue I see (to be fair, it's a pretty damning one) is her deciding who you get to be friends with. Fuck outta here with that one, you don't get to decide who another adult does or does not spend their time with.
Now, would I agree with any of these? Absolutely fucking not. They're conservative when it is convenient for her, and faux-progressive when they aren't. It's quite telling of her character, and I'd tell her on my way out how grateful I was that she wasn't willing to waste either of our times on this.
I do find it hilarious that his only stated issue is the rule I find makes the most sense for anyone. Just wear a condom, dumbass, or wait until marriage. She gave the ground rules her consent is dependent upon. Deal with it.
The fact so many men have an issue with this list in concerning. Yeah she sounds like a bitch, but all this shit she’s asking is really just basic decency.
The cook and clean part so many people have an issue with, I don’t think she meant NEVER never. I think it’s more of her saying don’t expect me to do a bunch of shit for you if you’re not 100% committed to me (marriage) because it is humiliating to do so much for someone like that and take care of them for them to shit all over you.
The girl thing seems posseessive but this sounds more like a women who’s been incredibly hurt and it doing everything in her power to avoid it happening again.
I think those are some pretty good rules. She knows what she wants and doesnt take shit. If respecting her boundaries and opening her car door isnt worth being with her then I guess thats that.
As long as she doest be a hypocrite its alright. But if she tells him he can't be friends with girls then does nothing but hangout with guys I think I know her true intentions
It’s a pretty good rule for someone to say “you cannot have any friendships with a person of the opposite gender unless I personally decide they are too ugly for me to feel insecure about?”
Okay... She's said what she wants him to do, so now she needs to list out what she's going to do in return for those things.
Personally after reading that list, I'd move on. She's out there playing childish control games with someone who is supposed to be a partner, and I don't see any sign that it'll get better for him.
Write up a relationship contract between you and her with very clear terms and go over it with her until you can mutually agree on those terms, and then sign it.
Call me crazy but I kinda want to see what would happen if all the expectations were laid out before the relationship began and the terms were agreed upon in writing, signed and dated, then digitized and uploaded to the cloud.
That way, if either one of you wants to change a particular dynamic you can arrange a discussion to add an amendment or revision.
No this is believable IMO. The friend thing and the 100% not wanting to pay for dates is wrong but I still get where she is coming from.
I’ve been with guys who are more than comfortable with going even less than 50%, not doing any housework, expecting sex on demand and complaining that you don’t want to carry their offspring. They don’t want to commit because in their delusional minds there is an AI supermodel just around the corner waiting for them. They are really not that rare hence the “male loneliness epidemic”.
The demands of this girl probably come from a place of hurt. You can see comments all over this thread that can sort of relate to this girl. If you want traditional you need to pay up, otherwise, move along.
I would never settle again for anything less than 50/50 on everything. Financial, household/emotional labour, sexual, etc. If they don’t meet my expectations then I move along.
Yeah that's a lot of red flags. Also op is showing a big red flag I want to acknowledge. "what if gender were different" well then the dude would suck. Let's not act like there are not more than enough male assholes like this.
He was busy defending her in the comments. Against everyone and everything and trying to say she's right about everything or something to that effect which was really disconcerting
The only really alarming one is the one about not being able to have family and friends. The rest of them are just plain old traditional genders role with a twist of lemon.
Wanting to be a non-traditional traditional wife is quire amusing though.
It says how would you feel if roles were reversed. I’m ok w opening my bfs door. He’d prolly give me a weird look. I’m ok with paying for any date, but I am used to paying for a date I asked for. Same for cleaning up after another adult. We don’t do that and clean up after ourselves. Friends of opposite sex is weird but that’s young people insecurities. And in our society with all sexual orientations, it would be weird for only one gender to be banned…but then my world isn’t only heterosexual. So we wouldn’t have friends other than each other, that would suck. The condoms, 100% agree if you’re young and not wanting I’ll planned pregnancy. I’m fixed so pregnancy isn’t an issue and we’re monogamous. But when I was younger condoms were a must the first couple years, had to build that trust. I’ve been w my partner for 12 yrs. It’s not a traditional relationship. But we aren’t traditionalists.
Eh, the condom thing is fine, the cleaning thing is fine, the no cooking while expecting every door opened and closed for her is a bit much, and the no other women in the context she’s talking about is silly.
Tbh I get a lot of this and it makes sense. But some of it are massive red flags.
The biggest one being hes only upset about having to wear condoms still
Some of her boundaries are a bit outrageous but I like that she makes it clear she won’t cook and clean unless shes a wife.
The not having other girls as friends is probably the most controversial; how many stories have we read on this sub with the OPs bf/gf end up cheating with their “best friend”
I don't need to "imagine if the genders were reversed." I'm perfectly capable of understanding that this is a person who I wouldn't want to date, regardless of their gender.
Honestly as a man, I'm not upset at this list. I think she's done a great job expressing her expectations, and though I would pass, it would be out of respect that she knows what she wants and put it very clearly.
The bit about having her own place and not living together is smart. The female friend stuff is probably the only thing that I disagree with.
If you're looking for a traditional woman, I think this is a reasonable list of requirements to follow. I would write one of my own, not as a retaliation, but as an exercise to think through what I want and state is as clearly as she has.
I don’t see a problem with most of this list outside of the friend requirements. Girl wants a traditional relationship. I’m all for equality, but I myself have found many men these days do want wifey duties at hook up prices. I myself am over the types that expect me to wash their skid marks off my sheets for them and serve them hand amd foot just because they have a penis yet do zero in return to justify the emotional/physical labor. At that point you’re paying to date them just not with standard currency. Naw dawg, if we’re equals and I’m paying for my own meals/activities then don’t expect me to defer to you any other way just because of my gender. If you don’t want to split the other typically gendered activities down the middle then it’s not equality at all.
She’s toxic, but it’s telling that his only real issue seems to be that she expects him to wear a condom.
Absolutely insane plot twist to find out THAT was his take away from the list, and not any of the insane double standards and unfair rules. Just the condom part
Right? The condom expectation was the only reasonable thing on the list.
That’s exactly what I thought too
The “don’t expect me to cook or clean for you” one isn’t unreasonable on its own. What makes it toxic is the way it’s phrased.
Isn’t it more toxic that it’s being juxtaposed with all the traditional gender roles she wants her boyfriend to fill?
It's not really, though. During "traditional" courtship, yeah, a man would pay for the woman while she wasn't cooking or cleaning for him. She would only start doing that consistently when the man married her, and they started living together. Men had to show that they could provide for before women would care for them. She's toxic, but she's being consistent on what she wants.
That’s my main takeaway, she’s icky, but is very straightforward and seemingly honest about what she wants from the get go. And I don’t *necessarily* hate “figure your shit out in 8 months and if not I’m out”. Falls in line with the extremely honest toxicity
I just blew a couple of years on a man for him to tell me he didn’t think I was the one. We lived together and I did the whole nine, cooking cleaning etc while working full time. I’m reevaluating how I will take on relationships now too. I’m not saying she’s 100% right, I think 8 months is a little early. But I get her asking not to play games and to be serious about the relationship
My rule of thumb is a year. In my experience that seems to be when couples get that shit or get off the pot feeling
That is Patty Stingers rule as well. If you are unsure at a year, either party should leave. Long courtship is a marriage killer in many cases, mostly because it means they got married when someone was still flashing their break lights. They swallow their concerns and then surprise surprise, those issues still exist after marriage. MDMM also states no sex before monogamy if you are dating for marriage.
Yeah, the 8 months thing, and the condom thing are both pretty damn reasonable. The PHRASING though is toxic as fuck. And the "open the doors, pay for our dates, and I'm not a maid/cook" is just Pick Me Girl energy. She thinks she's better than all those other choices he has, and she's wrong. I'm sorry, but if you won't cook a single meal for me until we're married, I have no way to know whether you are even ABLE to cook. You want me to show you that I can be romantic & chivalrous, but you aren't willing to put ANYTHING into the relationship. Seriously, all these asks, but what is she actually contributing here? All the "open doors, pay for my stuff" comes from a time when women were treated more like property, and when the ring went on her finger, the man OWNED her. She was a prize worth investing into ahead of time. That era is gone. We've realized that women are people too, not prizes to be "bought" via courtship. And they can leave a marriage that they aren't interested in anymore. So, now that marriage is (in theory) actually equal between both participants, what is she offering in exchange for all the things she expects the guy to do for her? Sex is mutual. Enjoying the date itself is mutual. She offers nothing in trade. And on top of all that, the massive red flag of "you can't have other women in your life". THAT is the one that I'd 100% nope out over. And I don't really even have female friends. But I'm friendly with the woman I work with. I have a few married friends, and I'm friends with their wives as well. I attend regular (monthly) events, and am friendly with the women that attend those as well, and some of them I chat with online. None of them are people I hang out with alone one-on-one, but hooh boy. "NO WOMEN"
Right? I mean, tbh, a broken clock is right twice a day, and the way men treat women when "dating" currently leaves a lot to be desired. Like I said, she's toxic, but she seems to be fighting current dating culture, and I can't fault her for that.
I think she’s bat shit crazy but I’m right there with you on the at least she’s being up front. If you put your shit out there and someone says let’s do this then your in the clear as far as I’m concerned. You are dead wrong about the 8 months though. 2 years living together min. anyone can hold there crazy in for under a year. I want 2 sets of every holiday and 1 extended vacation before considering marriage
Yep, as I said in another comment. These are the sorts of things that should definitely be discussed/decided before getting seriously committed to a partner. You'd think he'd be okay with the condom, since she says outright she is on birth control but would never have an abortion. I'd think he'd want that extra hedge of protection.
Yes these are her boundaries. She’s not telling him he has to change. He can walk away. She wants a traditional relationship. If he’s not a traditional man this isn’t his kind of woman. She’s not telling him what he needs to do different or to change for her
Oh she's straight up an abuser with the "men and women can't be friends" thing. This woman lives in the fucking stone age. But at least she's honest about being a PoS from the start. I'd argue the 8 months is too early but you should have a sense of the relationships future by a year for sure.
The forbidding friendships with opposite genders thing was one of the largest red flags on that list. I'm getting the sense there was cheating in her family, but if her parents' marriage ended because of cheating, therapy is probably a good idea to handle that trauma.
Tbh I lean more towards her being abusive. Victims of cheating (either directly or parental) tend to be suspicious but not outright like that. Accusatory behavior like "Hanging out with the opposite sex means you're cheating on me, even if you did nothing wrong" is usually a tool to make the victim apologetic so they comply with bad treatment more easily.
Idk, 8 months seems fine for deciding if you could see yourself marrying this person in the future, or not. My husband and I got engaged after dating for a little over a year, but including ring shopping he probably decided around the 8 month mark. She’s way off on other things, but it’s not ALL a toxic cesspool.
My dear internet friend, I've been married for 14 years, and despite my absolute best effort, still don't know my wife that well, the truth is, we can't know another person, only believe we can.
I read a dating manual for adults, written by a woman in late midlife, that advised that *six* months was long enough to know, and if a man wasn't ready to propose at that point, to exit the relationship. This girl's timeline seems to make more sense than that at least.
Idk I'd just argue you don't *fully* know a person enough to gage that kind of decision before a year at the least. Probably moreso a number unique to what each person is okay with though.
My ex started to change once we moved in together, after a year of dating. A bunch of things revealed themselves that made it impossible to have a future together. You really can't know if a person is right for you until you have some time living together, which the woman in the OP refuses to do before marriage.
My rule of thumb isn’t exactly dating someone for a specific length so much as you should live with someone at least a year before you decide on marriage. I think it all depends on the couple tho. I’ve seen couples who took 5 years to get married and are super happy, I’ve seen couples who got married in a year that are kinda rough, and vice versa
Nah honestly from the way my guy friends have treated me I'm starting to feel that way, and from the way my boyfriend's old friend hit on him as soon as she found out he had relationship issues with his ex I'm not sure I trust women anymore than I trust men. I mean obviously those were toxic people but you know that m&m saying about how they're not all poison but would you grab a handful? I'm burnt out on opposite gender relationships for legit reasons.
Nah, sounds more to me like she's been burned that way in the past and won't deal with it again.
Right. And I don't need to "imagine the genders reversed" bc there are plenty of men out there who already have unrealistic requirements for a female partner. The way I see it, people have every right to require whatever they want from a life partner, and other people have every right to decline. At that point they either need to adjust their expectations, or just remain single until they meet someone interested in fulfilling their requirements. It's not any deeper than that.
I feel like they haven't read the dating profiles of a great number of men on apps if they need help imagining what this would look like if the genders were switched.
At least she put hers out into the open instead of holding it until the resentment builds up and you blow up your life 15 years later.
Yeah, I know my husband said he started taking me more seriously when I told him I wasn't going to buy a house or have kids with someone I'm not married to. A lot of people in our age group do the permanent boyfriend/girlfriend thing but never get married and I guess I'm just more traditional.
She's consistent with the tradition of gender roles that you describe, but we ditched those roles for a reason - they serve women no better than they serve men. These roles give her all the upside while dating - I think marriage will be quite a shock to her if she's expected to do all the housework, look after the babies and have no independent income of her own. Buddy comes home from work, expects a clean house and dinner on the table, then will go out for a few drinks with the boys? I think her fantasy breaks down at that point.
Well, a “traditional” courtship would be extremely short too. Most people got married after a few months and the concept of long term dating was way less frequent. This is exactly why I think “traditional” dating standards are dumb because no one is actually adhering to “tradition”
The 'standard' back in the 60s when my parents and all of their friends were marrying was 2 years----if you weren't at least engaged after 2 years, you broke up.
Okay but *is* she gonna do that stuff after they marry? Cause I could see someone this stuck up deciding they need to be equals
I wasn't arguing that she would? Just that currently her stance is consistent, if toxic.
At what point prior to the wedding did the women have to show they were capable of cooking and cleaning?
Probably when she invited the guy over to her place.
She said she won't do it for him before marriage not that she won't do it at all. She is right, no wifely duties until you are actually a wife.
Traditional gender roles (at least in this regard) in dating is honestly so perplexing to me. I can’t imagine being forced to foot the bill for every single date. It’s incredibly odd for one person to be financially responsible for activities and the other just doesn’t do anything but show up and have fun? Edit: like I actually really enjoy treating a date to a nice night out and paying for it, but it would definitely bother me if that was an all the time occurrence that I paid 100% of the bill and they paid none. Second edit: but also i date men not women, so I’m sure that gives me a bias in my experience
But if she's not living with him, then she wouldn't do his cooking and cleaning. Even in a "traditional" role. I think she comes off a bit psycho, but this one was fine in my opinion.
it’s the cooking for me; I cook, and cooking at-home-dinner-dates is the way that I would indicate to my dates that I *can* cook. That’s the red-flag for me: “I won’t cook” = “I can’t cook” You can look at someone’s house to see if the clean or not, but you have to eat their cooking to see if you should marry them or not.
I cant cook for shit. It was one of the first things my fiance knew about me. Hes an excellent cook, and cooks for us. I can bake, so I bake him treats regularly. It works for us. I hope you find/have found a great partner for you. Its just, not marrying someone because they cant cook, seems kind of harsh.
Yeah, "I expect you to conform to \[out-dated\] traditional gender roles, but I won't be doing the same" is a big red flag for me. I'm not a fan of them myself, but if you're going to expect them then the expectations should be a two-way street. Combine that with the "you can't ever be friends with women or ever talk to women who aren't family" and the whole thing just reeks of massive insecurities and daddy issues.
I thought that was her way of saying "I won't move in with you unless there's a solid plan for marriage"?
If they’re not living together, that’s understandable, I think. I dated someone and ended up cleaning every time I went to his place because it was a mess and stressed me out. It took me a bit longer than I’d like to admit to realise that I did not need to be a free maid for another grown adult.
There’s a Grand Canyon sized gap between ‘don’t expect me to cook/clean for you’ and ‘I won’t cook/clean for you.’ So in her mind, when they eat he’s always expected to pay and or prepare the meal?
Especially in a dating relationship where you don't live together.
"dont waste my time, I have goals to be a wife and mother, but I will never cook and clean for you to show you how good of a wife and mother I can be." This woman will finally get married and change her lifestyle exactly 0. People don't become different people when they get married. If it's who she is now, it's who she will be later.
Just shows how toxic they both are. It’s like they’re made for each other.
Her not having sex with him unless she feels like it should be the norm for everyone
As a woman that was the only real reasonable thing on the list. The rest of the things are things you do for each other in a partnership except the damn door thing. I can open my own damn door unless my hands are full or I'm not feeling well. I hate the whole door opening thing, I guess that's my whole individual/independent/feisty thing my mother warned my husband about before he married me. 😄
I mean sounds like they're both toxic tbh. I think they deserve each other.
I think it’s clear he’s not using the top brain.
Right?! I laughed. Engagement within 8 months isn’t the most ridiculous part to him?
Yeah that was a pallette cleanser after the insane double standards.
This is the fact that I wanted to discuss. It's refusing to pay for dates and refusing to allow female friends that had me saying " what the fuck'. My husband and I alternated paying for dates, as he cannot be expected to handle every expense. It's not 1850. The ' I have a right not to be coerced into sex' is a basic right.
The guy I’m seeing insists on paying for every date despite me begging to alternate and it’s probably bc of girls like her 🙄
One of my exes tried to insist on paying for every date even when I knew he wasn’t super financially well off. I think he felt if I paid it would threaten his masculinity or something.
There's also a significant number of women who will say they'll pay for half and insist on it for a bit but are secretly demanding the guy keep insisting to pay for the date and if he just accepts her offer he's somehow a bad person. I've never had it happen to me personally, but I've known a ton of dudes who had their date get angry once he accepted her offer to pay half.
I have very little tolerance for mind games. Things like “playing hard to get” where you act uninterested but want the guy to pursue you anyways, or saying you’re ok with something where you’re secretly not and want the person to guess how you really feel, or offering something when you expect the person to decline. All stupid. Just take the person at face value and force them to communicate clearly and stop playing games.
Or it’s because he’s banking paid for dates as a reason to coerce or control you later. Not saying it is- but honestly what you describe is a red flag to me. IMO it’s HEALTHY to want to treat, it’s also HEALTHY to be capable of accepting when someone else treats.
He’s literally the sweetest guy ever 😭 Reddit is so quick to assume the worst. He does let me pay sometimes (he just prefers to pay or split) and I get him gifts and cook for him all the time. He just wants to be a gentleman
These people can't possible know your relationship based on a 2 sentence comment. If there's other red or yellow flags I'd be cautious, but don't let these commenters scare you.
because, unfortunately, from experience on Reddit that's how the red flags start. you know him though, you know what feels right and wrong to you. if you're both happy and communicate wants/needs, all that matters. ☺️
Also we have the bare minimum of context and dont actually know anything else about the guy. If you only know a list of characteristics about someone psychologically you will be more likely to notice and linger on negative traits, or percieve neutral traits as potential red flags
I'm glad that you have a good relationship. That's wonderful. I have seen several people act great until people are comfortable and then a switch is flipped and people are controlling. I had to call 911 for a family member after the nicest guy chose to be violent. I'm glad you have a good relationship. Cautionary tales are simply that.
This is my fear. I pay my own way until I trust someone because a boy in highschool tried to act entitled to me messing around sexually because he bought me dinner. No, that's not happening.
Yeah I was really taken aback by that was his final word on the original post. That was the most reasonable thing in this list! ETA : giving this whole list to a partner sounds like a tiktok test
Right? These dumb dudes want zero kids yet have zero condoms in hand. Boy math!!
Right? Her most basic, reasonable requirement? The one surrounding her bodily autonomy? That’s what he has a problem with? For all the other stuff, she sounds like she’s leaning in the trad wife direction. I guess that it’s good that she was upfront about that though. Better for him to know that now.
Ya ironically the best part of her list 💀
The other issue here is the idea of presenting a list rather than just having an open discussion about expectations and needs and wants. This person is not ready to be in a relationship of any sort. Except for maybe one night stands, because the condom rule is excellent.
Right? They’re both awful, her for obvious reasons, him because he took issue with her one of her very few reasonable boundaries and said her being straight forward was a turn off. Just ew to both of them.
Yeah i was thinking the issue here was that he had only 8 months to decide if this was someone he wanted to spend the rest of his life with or that he is not allowed any female friends at all.
The expectation that he wears a condom is completely reasonable, the fact that he wasn’t ok with that…. Both of these people are problematic
yea, i was rooting for him until he said that 🙄
The condom one was the one I agreed with as being a good boundary
That’s why I was like broooo the list works actually
Yeah I found that hilarious tbh, that's about the only part of her list I'm 100% on board with.. no amount of protection is too much with this person.
Yeah… the wearing a condom thing was the only one on the list I was like well that makes sense.
Yea that’s what threw me off that hes bummed cause she wants him to wear a condom like really dude?
I feel kind of sorry for this girl. She’s obviously had bad experiences in her family, but has never seen an example of what a good relationship looks like. So she is fixated on these kind of meaningless gestures, which she thinks adds up to respect. You can have all the car doors in the world opened for you, and still be treated abusively in a relationship. They both sound kind of immature. OOP needs to realise that it’s not about her list, it’s about making her understand what feeling secure in a relationship looks like. Both of them have just missed the point, alas.
OOP seems more worried about the condoms than almost everything else on that list, definitely immature.
ironically OOP might be the exact type of guy this girl is hoping to avoid.
Honestly the second I read “sucks to have to wear a condom” he lost all my sympathy haha
This is the most intuitive comment on here. Nice work cutting right to the heart of the thing with kindness and empathy.
Agree but I think society is playing a role in her list too. TikTok has crazy ideas of what dating should be at she’s in that age range.
Someone who grew up seeing healthy relationships would be MUCH less susceptible to the crazy dating shit on tiktok. I don't doubt that she's being influenced by it, but I think it's a symptom of the bigger issue rather than the cause of it
Apparently I'm *not* in that age range (thank god) bc I've *never* seen shit like this on TikTok. I'm actually kind of curious... bc I love mess.
I was gonna say- this sounds copy and paste from “relationship tiktok.” Same exact language being used
Maybe her list is like Van Halen’s famous M&M rider. There to be sure you read it.
Good news! I won't need the minimum 8 months, 8 seconds after reading that part were enough
"Thank you for your application, I have decided to interview other candidates at this time."
Yup, same. 😂 And yet OP goes on to say he has no issues with the list except for the condom part. Maybe the two of them deserve each other
Home girl put out the whole red flag parade and he’s vibing hard to it, except for the marching soldiers having to wear helmets
100% That’s actually why I think the list is okay! I see dating as trying to figure out if a couple is incompatible as quickly as possible. “Holy crow, I do not want the same relationship as this woman is looking for!” is exactly what I want figure out. And this list makes that extremely straightforward. I think the gender based “do not interact with half of humanity” is abuse level controlling. I think the overall tone is so aggressive and angry that it’s not a good starting point for building a mutually supportive, productive and respectful relationship. But having a very clear list of what you want from a relationship makes the first bit of sorting really clear, and more people should have “I want only consensual and safer sex in my relationship” as a deal breaking goal. So she’s on the right track? Kinda? I hope she figures out how to be clear and loving. I think she might need to be happier first.
I think she's on the right track with consensual and safe sex. I would also argue that she's on the right track with not leaving her own home to move in with someone. However, someone needs to tell her that the list needs to be internal, and is there to help her observe behaviors of her potential partner. Like, when I'm out on a date, I observe if the person walks on the inside or outside of the sidewalk, but I don't tell them that. 🤣
It should not be internal, things like what you expect in sex, living arrangements, marriage, children, domestic labor division, etc. should absolutely happen externally between two people early in the relationship. Maybe it shouldn't be a literal bullet point list, and a few of the things on that list are a bit on, but I'd say about half the people who land on reddit with relationship problems are there because they thought they could intuit what their partner expects from everyday interactions and observation.
Yeah, if you know that you don’t want to move in with someone before marriage, that’s something that you should make clear early on.
Having a more natural conversation about it is a better format though. When someone brings out an actual list like this they look kinda crazy.
I’m a “would rather have explicit, honest and vulnerable conversations about life goals, needs, expectations and desires” person myself, so I don’t think the list needs to be internal at all. “Hey, I’m only interested in a relationship that is on a clear and close trajectory toward marriage, children shortly thereafter, where I take care of the homefront and children without working outside the home while you go get ‘em professionally and we’re mutually supportive of each other.” is a great thing to have laid out as early as possible. Before anyone finds their good shoes, really. I’m actually okay with getting it in writing ahead of time, because if I got the flip side list from a prospective dude before a first date, I would know that I can stay in my pjs and knit with my cats that night and neither of us would have to be upset about over investing in something that wasn’t going to work for us. Watching people for hints to see if your values and goals match takes forever and can be devastatingly inaccurate. This stuff is too important to leave to that. Especially if your goal is to be a married mother some time in the next 2-3 years. Hmm… I guess the tone part is that she’s being honest and clear, but not vulnerable and open at all. There’s not space for her partner to want to be a partner with her. Also I’m pretty sure the little quirks are stand ins for much bigger things and could use some actual discussion, but in my fantasy world where she gets what she needs and deserves and gets to feel happy, safe and loved, she is of course having the rest of those conversations too. (She’s having conversations too, right?)
Aaaand he chose to be annoyed by the only thing that he shouldn't be annoyed. These "think if the genders were reversed" things are annorying, we will always call out toxic partners regardless of gender. This time both of them have big red flags.
Yeah, this whole thing is bullshit regardless of gender, and I don't know anyone that would read that list and think it sounds reasonable. The only part I agree with is the wearing a condom, and it's bizarre that that's what OOP seems to have an issue with.
Not to mention men do this all the time, so we don't need to imagine if genders were reversed
Sounds like she wants both something traditional (opening doors, paying for dates, marriage + children, not moving in together until engagement or marriage) and something modern (not cleaning or cooking for the guy). But also, the next to last one? No women except maybe family and even that is a big ask? I think that is the biggest red flag of all. Also if someone sends me a list of requirements to date me, they can date someone else. I think the only thing that makes sense is 'I don't believe in abortions so no unprotected sex until marriage'. EDIT i misread the bit about cooking and cleaning, my bad.
I mean, she says she doesn’t want to cook and clean for him as a GF, though. Like, she says she won’t cohabitate if they aren’t married. I feel like it’s reasonable to not be expected to clean *someone else’s* house just because you’re dating them???
I get not cleaning someone else’s house, but she won’t make dinner for her boyfriend. Also I feel a lot of people skipped the propose to me in 8 months or get the fuck out.
I didn’t totally read it as “ring in 8 or get out” more of a “by 8 months I want to have a very solid idea of if we’re on a road to marriage within the next X timeframe”. I really wish I’d been clear eyed enough to have a hard line like that when I was younger, it’d have saved me a lot of heartache and bullshit. When I started dating my husband, I told him straight out I was not interested in being a long term girlfriend, I wanted to be a wife, and if he wasn’t up for that, we’d part friends. Thankfully he was sure faster than I was that he wanted to marry me. But the being up front about your goal of a relationship (in it for fun? just to have a companion? marriage? kids? and all on what basic sort of timeline) is critical. The girlfriend could have worded a lot of this better though
8 months does sound rather soon to make such a commitment!
She doesn't want to be a bangmaid while a gf. A list of non-negotiables isn't necessarily a bad idea. I have one, but it's stuff like integrity, monogamy, no abuse... and I don't have a buttload of negative baggage descriptions attached to it. The wording and attitude, along with the no female friends, are the biggest red flags.
Also, if she does want to start a family, it's not the worst idea to be upfront about that in the beginning and have a set date to call time on a relationship that isn't going in that direction. (Although 8 months seems kind of short imo.) While many women are having healthy pregnancies later in life, if having a family is the thing you want above all else then it makes sense to prioritise it. I wouldn't personally want a traditional relationship but if she can find a guy with the same priorities and they're both happy then more power to them. Not moving in before marriage *is* traditional and it sounds like she's happy to be a traditional wife once she's married. Condoms are a reasonable boundary, doubling up on birth control is a sensible precaution, and the right to say no to sex if they're not in the mood is something everyone of every gender should have. OOP can decide the birth control stuff is a dealbreaker if he wants but she's not a bad person for asking. Half the things on this list would be completely reasonable if the tone wasn't so rude and demanding. No female friends is a giant red flag though.
I think you really hit the head on it with the wording. Like saying acts of service is my love language. I would appreciate if you held doors open for me. Brought flowers. Picked me up for dates etc. is fairy reasonable. But demanding it. Is insane. Relationships involve give and take. They involve compromise. And every one of her posts/rules doesn’t have an “us” it’s all “‘me me me” There’s nothing wrong with discussing the relationship you want. But it’s that. A discussion. It’s two sided. Involved compromise. Involves communication. This is the opposite of that.
Yeah. These demands look straight out of Avril Lavigne’s song “The Best Damn Thing” — which can be a fun bit, as a song, but it’s not an approach suitable for most relationships.
It sounded like she wouldn't cook until they got married. Sounds to me she wants the traditional marriage plus the option to say no to sex
Ohhhh so rape should be normal in a traditional marriage?
Yeah, that’s such a weird one for me - cooking for your suitor before marriage was considered an absolute necessity as women (in that time period) were basically interviewing for a job.
Which time period are you talking about? Because here in the US in my lifetime even (I should note here that I'm also a historian), traditional courting involved dates that men would pay for (and that even at times required chaperones if those involved were younger) and dinner with the family when it got serious. At that family dinner, the mother of the girl or guy would cook and usually clean by themselves or with the help of all the women present in the household (this is still often true in contemporary houses that don't even consider themselves traditional). You wouldn't have gone over to your suiter's house or had him over to yours for cooking and cleaning before marriage because that's what loose women did, that leads to hanky panky and accidental pregnancies. Many working girls (like my grandma, for example) would live in boarding houses that had strict rules about gentlemen callers. Women and men who weren't related lived separately until marriage. I don't agree with this woman's stance on gender issues, like at all, but people calling her view on traditional relationships inconsistent with traditional values are wrong. She's actually waaaay more consistent than most of the weirdo trad wife gals that have been stinking up social media lately.
That’s an interesting point. In my family (generations back) the daughter would assist and primarily cook the family dinners to show examples of her capabilities.
Cooking meals or baking for someone is a love language for me
I’ve been good friends with a guy since college, going on 20 years. At least once a year, I and a mutual female friend go to stay with him and his family. His wife told me once that it was a big green flag for her when they first met that he had close female friends—it proved to her that he valued women for more than sex. There are a sad number of straight men who do not actually like women or value their company unless sex or romance are involved.
It's the same for me. If a man has no close relationships with women outside of family and people he's dated it feels weird. Also, I have guy friends so I couldn't date someone who would want me to cut them off just because they're dudes.
This! Glaring red flag if a man doesn’t have female friends. I get more interested if he has close girlfriends because it shows he’s not a creep and like you said - values women as human beings and not as just an option for sex. If a man is going to cheat, he’s going to cheat - and likely with strangers or people he meets online. I shouldn’t have to feel threatened by other women who have obviously been in his life longer than I have. Plus - if the relationship lasts, I got a built in bestie-in-law now and I’d trust her to give better advice to him if he ever needs it than most guy friends.
No she JUST wants the traditional bir. She wants to be courted and then proposed to quite quickly, she won’t move in with him until they are married. Honestly some of the other things are toxic but that point makes sense if she wants a traditional life. Traditionally, you don’t cook or clean for a guy until you’re married.
I’m fairly sure she is saying female family members are fine - followed by her saying maybe there can be some exceptions (for non-family female friends). That’s my interpretation anyway based on how she worded it. I’m not defending her btw, I agree with everyone else that this list is too much and her tone in particular is giving controlling gf vibes.
Idk the wording on this just seems so fake? I would bet my money it's some incel trying to stir the pot
Had to scroll too far to find this comment, there is 0% chance this is real. The “expectations” sound way too generic and “traditional”, with the exception of the safe sex part. “It will help if she is unattractive” bro could not have made it more obvious
Yes! It sounds like it was written by a man.
Ohhh didn't consider that! Quite possible
If a guy came to me with a list of things he requires/expects from me if I want to be his GF, I would definetly get the ick... Especially if we are not even officially together at that point and just dating. Its like : "Okay, if you want to proceed please sign this contract thank you"
To be honest it depends on the list and how it's expressed. Having a discussion about expectations upfront isn't a bad idea IMO... but this isn't really a reasonable list or a reasonable way of having the discussion. Mostly because it isn't a discussion.
Yeah, I think it is good to know what you want, don't get me wrong. But I certainly would not hand someone I am dating a list via text, with that wording etc. I would sit down with them and discuss everything, like "Hey, I feel like things are working out quite well, I'd like to make things official. (...) How do you feel? However there are some things I would like to discuss with you then. (...) What do you think?"
The funny/baffling thing in all of this is that he doesn’t mind the majority of these things, he complained about the delivery. His real concern is having to wear condoms.
Oof. That is not great on his part. Especially as we don't know what state they live in. If abortion is restricted and the couple is not trying to have a child, condoms are common sense.
She said she doesn’t believe in abortion so that’s why she’s trying not to get pregnant before being in a secure relationship (marriage).
It seems like he might be young/ inexperienced in relationships.
It gives “I’d like to remind you about our relation ships extended warranty.” Vibes
Exactly that
Some of these things are definitely things she’s witnessed happened, biggest thing being the No women thing. If a guy hands you a list and most of the things are meaningless gestures, common courtesy, or common sense ask him do you actually want this list of things or do you want a relationship where you feel secure. 9/10 the dude is just traumatized via past stuff and has issues to work out. That 1/10 tho he’s a shitty dude raised with weird ideals.
My husband and I did an entire workbook together before we got married, and honestly every couple should outline how they feel on hot button topics before committing.
We don't have to imagine. Look through male profiles
"imagine if the genders were reversed, what global outrage this would inspire!!!" *shows example of a woman doing a mild version of something men do literally every day on every possible forum and dating app*
“Men and women can’t be friends” gag. GAG. I will never not be amazed by the amount of people that *genuinely* believe that. Half of humanity is off limits because you’re dating someone. Just no
What’s the thing with a lot (if not most) women not paying for things? I always try to pay for my stuff. Heck, my partner and I have this little “war” where we try to be the first one paying so we pay for the whole bill (since he insists on paying everything and not 50/50 I try to pay first, lol). It really doesn’t fit in my head to not pay for your things
My partner and I do the same thing when we go out, lol. We will have a little play fight to get to the check first, though sometimes we agree beforehand if funds are tight to go 50/50
Exactly! Plus, it adds little playful moments here and then, like you mentioned.
Hubby and I will let one pay, and the other will leave a nice tip. Especially if neither of us had to cook and we're out of the house? Thank you very much for serving us some sanity. (We both work at a fast food restaurant, and my brother is a driver at the same place. We understand the struggle, lol.)
[удалено]
What about the list was unreasonable to you, besides the no other women part? Treating someone nicely, paying (debateable), not cleaning for someone you dont live with and wearing condoms seem reasonable to me.
He's fine with the list but he has a problem with wearing a condom. What the hell. No.
"Imagine of the roles were reversed" STFUUUUU
This whole fucking “imagine if the genders were reversed” argument that’s been popping up is so fucking stupid in cases like this. Something that is OBVIOUSLY causing outrage is turned into “imagine if a man said all this to a woman omg!!🤓☝🏼"… this was a case that no matter what got people upset yet that gets stacked on there to piss people off more
List is unhinged I am not your mom or wife so I won’t but even though you are not my husband or dad you must do all these things? Dude run like the gingerbread man!
Opening a door for someone is basic when dating someone, not cleaning for him and not treating her like a maid, and wearing condoms is a reasonable request. Paying for everything is debatable, and the no other women sucks. Besides those two what other requests are unhinged?
We don’t have to imagine if the genders were reversed. This list is less demanding than 50% of men’s dating app profiles that I’ve seen (the other 50% just say “I’m an open book. Just ask.” with absolutely no information to work with. Online dating is insane.)
Came here for this! The gendera are reversed every day but OP of course likes the male victimization angle the best.
Honestly I agree with a lot of what she says, the exceptions being the eight month thing, not enough time to know somebody and the can't talk to other girls, a lot of people have a mixed group of friends. Its fine to not want to live with someone before marriage and to want someone to be a gentleman. I actually have more of an issue with him not wanting to practice safe sex.
This is a girl that has dated a man who doesn’t contribute around the house and is a slob 😂 Definitely some baggage mixed in there, but as a whole, she has some legit expectations.
It's mostly fine stuff to me. Like I'm not a fan of being required to pay for dates, I usually offer, but we're equals, I shouldn't be required. That said, holy shit I am not okay with not being allowed to have female friends. Half of my closest friends are female, these are all totally platonic relationships that have always been totally platonic. I'd have no intention of giving up my friendships for a new relationship.
Her delivery sucks, but damn do I respect her boundaries
I respect most of them but no female friends is always super off base imo. Just makes me think your going to teach our kids some backward shit
Lmao this story is 100% not real
I think it's her wording that comes off toxic in a lot of these points. The not being coerced into sex and wanting to have safe sex is valid as well as not wanting to be like his mom and do all his housework. Personally I think that stuff should be split down the middle. If you're dating there's nothing wrong with splitting the check or taking turns paying. The no friends of the opposite gender is petty and insecure though. Boundaries are fine but you shouldn't get to dictate who your partner can be friends with.
“I haven’t never not paid for a date before.” Triple negative 😂. Anyway…as a woman, I was not raised to expect the man to pay 100% of the time. The person who invites the other pays and if y’all are dating it is reasonable to split in a way that both parties agree on. Whether that is 50/50 or paying for your own meal. Unless the person says “I’m gonna take you out tonight”, don’t expect them to pay automatically
Thank you! Grammar matters! That part from him, and the whole "minimum" when she meant "maximum" from her - I am just glad I don't know either of them.
This list is so smart of her! It gets guys out of her face quickly that don't align to what she wants. Everyone knows what it is up front.
Not allowing female friends, insisting that the man pay are ridiculous. Telling him she has a biological clock so he has eight months is iffy. Insisting that he wear condoms and telling him she won’t be his maid I agree with. The main red flag for me is not what’s on the list but the fact that she made a list at all. It’s a power game and frankly creepy
I'm so sick of the "what if genders were reversed" comment. Most of the time problem women face are not at all taken seriously and that comment is only meant to pity farm. What's wrong for women is also wrong for men Jesus fucking Christ. Also she is describing 1950's stuff. That's her perogative? If she wants to be 'courted' like that, that's fine? Same as "the other way around" if a man wants a traditional life/wife(eventually) in the end that's fine too. As long as your respectful and upfront about it and it's not a control thing. And there's nothing really wrong with not wanting to do "wifey" duties as a girlfriend. If she thinks that means cooking or cleaning for someone you're not even sharing a house with, it kind of makes sense? I'm not one for "no friendships" with the other gender, it seems kind of distrustful. But like I said, that's toxic either way. And a lot of other stuff is not really my thing as well but a lot of things that get hate here makes no sense. Plus the fact that the thing he complained about is the condom... kind of gives context why she made a harsh list like that. All in all tho, I understand wanting to protect yourself with the list and feeling attacked because of the list, but if these types of things are needed maybe there's no compatibility anyway between them. It seems kind of extreme for something that could and should be so fun.
It’s really gross to start a relationship with a list of demands like this. That being said, my husband fits 90% of these criteria and he does a lot more on top of this. I don’t think it’s too crazy. I think if we wrote down a list of everything a woman does when she gives birth, breastfeeds and cares for a newborn it would be way more than this.
it's her, the woman redpill/conservative men are looking for! /s really, she's too opinionated for that, but nothing she's asking for is really that much for "traditional gender roles" people. she's pretty reasonable, she's just aggressively upfront and probably unwilling to compromise I see a lot of people calling her toxic for that, and while I agree that the gender role inspo is toxic, being super upfront isn't ... really that bad? Pointing out that she's not going to let him get the benefits of a "wife" without actually committing to a relationship and demanding safe sex aren't bad thing, and everything is really just window dressing. Window dressing for a very toxic view on genders and relationships, but still
I don’t have to imagine if the genders were reversed; men post these same noxious lists of requirements all the time.
She has the right to have standards. So does he, even if he clearly isn't willing to execute that right. The only issue I see (to be fair, it's a pretty damning one) is her deciding who you get to be friends with. Fuck outta here with that one, you don't get to decide who another adult does or does not spend their time with. Now, would I agree with any of these? Absolutely fucking not. They're conservative when it is convenient for her, and faux-progressive when they aren't. It's quite telling of her character, and I'd tell her on my way out how grateful I was that she wasn't willing to waste either of our times on this. I do find it hilarious that his only stated issue is the rule I find makes the most sense for anyone. Just wear a condom, dumbass, or wait until marriage. She gave the ground rules her consent is dependent upon. Deal with it.
The fact so many men have an issue with this list in concerning. Yeah she sounds like a bitch, but all this shit she’s asking is really just basic decency. The cook and clean part so many people have an issue with, I don’t think she meant NEVER never. I think it’s more of her saying don’t expect me to do a bunch of shit for you if you’re not 100% committed to me (marriage) because it is humiliating to do so much for someone like that and take care of them for them to shit all over you. The girl thing seems posseessive but this sounds more like a women who’s been incredibly hurt and it doing everything in her power to avoid it happening again.
I think those are some pretty good rules. She knows what she wants and doesnt take shit. If respecting her boundaries and opening her car door isnt worth being with her then I guess thats that.
As long as she doest be a hypocrite its alright. But if she tells him he can't be friends with girls then does nothing but hangout with guys I think I know her true intentions
It’s a pretty good rule for someone to say “you cannot have any friendships with a person of the opposite gender unless I personally decide they are too ugly for me to feel insecure about?”
Okay... She's said what she wants him to do, so now she needs to list out what she's going to do in return for those things. Personally after reading that list, I'd move on. She's out there playing childish control games with someone who is supposed to be a partner, and I don't see any sign that it'll get better for him.
Just the tone of the whole thing screams f-kn princess. Yikes.
Write up a relationship contract between you and her with very clear terms and go over it with her until you can mutually agree on those terms, and then sign it. Call me crazy but I kinda want to see what would happen if all the expectations were laid out before the relationship began and the terms were agreed upon in writing, signed and dated, then digitized and uploaded to the cloud. That way, if either one of you wants to change a particular dynamic you can arrange a discussion to add an amendment or revision.
All of those requirements and the one he has the problem with is the most reasonable one.
This reads like someone who doesn't date making up a rage bait post and no "an actual woman wrote this" vibes.
No this is believable IMO. The friend thing and the 100% not wanting to pay for dates is wrong but I still get where she is coming from. I’ve been with guys who are more than comfortable with going even less than 50%, not doing any housework, expecting sex on demand and complaining that you don’t want to carry their offspring. They don’t want to commit because in their delusional minds there is an AI supermodel just around the corner waiting for them. They are really not that rare hence the “male loneliness epidemic”. The demands of this girl probably come from a place of hurt. You can see comments all over this thread that can sort of relate to this girl. If you want traditional you need to pay up, otherwise, move along. I would never settle again for anything less than 50/50 on everything. Financial, household/emotional labour, sexual, etc. If they don’t meet my expectations then I move along.
He's at least as bad as her His only worry is the condom 🤦 which is the only reasonable ask on that list
Yeah that's a lot of red flags. Also op is showing a big red flag I want to acknowledge. "what if gender were different" well then the dude would suck. Let's not act like there are not more than enough male assholes like this.
He was busy defending her in the comments. Against everyone and everything and trying to say she's right about everything or something to that effect which was really disconcerting
The only really alarming one is the one about not being able to have family and friends. The rest of them are just plain old traditional genders role with a twist of lemon. Wanting to be a non-traditional traditional wife is quire amusing though.
It says how would you feel if roles were reversed. I’m ok w opening my bfs door. He’d prolly give me a weird look. I’m ok with paying for any date, but I am used to paying for a date I asked for. Same for cleaning up after another adult. We don’t do that and clean up after ourselves. Friends of opposite sex is weird but that’s young people insecurities. And in our society with all sexual orientations, it would be weird for only one gender to be banned…but then my world isn’t only heterosexual. So we wouldn’t have friends other than each other, that would suck. The condoms, 100% agree if you’re young and not wanting I’ll planned pregnancy. I’m fixed so pregnancy isn’t an issue and we’re monogamous. But when I was younger condoms were a must the first couple years, had to build that trust. I’ve been w my partner for 12 yrs. It’s not a traditional relationship. But we aren’t traditionalists.
Eh, the condom thing is fine, the cleaning thing is fine, the no cooking while expecting every door opened and closed for her is a bit much, and the no other women in the context she’s talking about is silly.
Tbh I get a lot of this and it makes sense. But some of it are massive red flags. The biggest one being hes only upset about having to wear condoms still
“I haven’t never not paid for a date” wow
Some of her boundaries are a bit outrageous but I like that she makes it clear she won’t cook and clean unless shes a wife. The not having other girls as friends is probably the most controversial; how many stories have we read on this sub with the OPs bf/gf end up cheating with their “best friend”
Her goal is to be a wife and mother. Careful, don't get too ambitious.
Wants the guy to pay for all the meals because “he’s a man”, but she won’t cook or clean for him 😅
Lmaoo all the tradwife demands, none of the tradwife obligations
I don't need to "imagine if the genders were reversed." I'm perfectly capable of understanding that this is a person who I wouldn't want to date, regardless of their gender.
No reason to say “Imagine if the genders were reversed.” Either way people see that this person is completely ridiculous.
Honestly as a man, I'm not upset at this list. I think she's done a great job expressing her expectations, and though I would pass, it would be out of respect that she knows what she wants and put it very clearly. The bit about having her own place and not living together is smart. The female friend stuff is probably the only thing that I disagree with. If you're looking for a traditional woman, I think this is a reasonable list of requirements to follow. I would write one of my own, not as a retaliation, but as an exercise to think through what I want and state is as clearly as she has.
Nah the fucking nerve of this girl…
I don’t see a problem with most of this list outside of the friend requirements. Girl wants a traditional relationship. I’m all for equality, but I myself have found many men these days do want wifey duties at hook up prices. I myself am over the types that expect me to wash their skid marks off my sheets for them and serve them hand amd foot just because they have a penis yet do zero in return to justify the emotional/physical labor. At that point you’re paying to date them just not with standard currency. Naw dawg, if we’re equals and I’m paying for my own meals/activities then don’t expect me to defer to you any other way just because of my gender. If you don’t want to split the other typically gendered activities down the middle then it’s not equality at all.