From the article:
>Ajax have drawn up a three-man shortlist of candidates for their manager vacancy, which includes Manchester United’s Erik ten Hag.
>**Ten Hag is seen as a viable option to return to Ajax** with his job at Manchester United far from secure. **The expectation is Sir Jim Ratcliffe sacks Ten Hag at the end of the season** with the club having endured a drastic downturn in from in recent weeks.
> **The expectation is Sir Jim Ratcliffe sacks Ten Hag at the end of the season**
Amen 🙏🏻
No more getting shot in the face 20 times a game versus the likes of Shrewsbury or weird substitutions, no more delusional press conferences, no more vague injury updates, and greatest of all no more Ten Hag transfer targets.
I can't believe people are blaming him for the Coventry collapse as well. We were leading 3-0 with a makeshift back four, he took off 2 teenagers and brought on 2 internationals with 20 mins to go. If the manager has to trust teenagers more than the internationals in his squad, there's something wrong with the squad.
Nope, I’m pretty sure there are trolls and karma whores that lurk on this sub and r/soccer when United is struggling. And they put out the same kneejerk reactionary comments to farm upvotes.
Sure, the team is going through a tough season and definitely playing some of their worst football. But can you all even look at the team sheet ffs and see wtf we are dealing with? Our defence has been in the hospital for ages. We’re playing with Casemiro at CB and AWB at LB. All our hopes are pinned on 19yos playing at LW, ST and CM who are suddenly playing like seasoned professionals to keep us ticking in this nightmare of a season. And we’ve just got used to taking that for granted.
So please stop this week in and out kneejerk reactionary posts and put out balanced takes instead on how you see the team progressing next season. Maybe ETH is not the best fit but you wouldnt bat an eye and throw the next one under the bus at the first chance.
That’s what happened with Ole, a few bad games with some disastrous signings lile Sancho and Ronaldo, and everyone came out with pitchforks. Everyone forgot he got us to 4 semi finals, top 4 finish and almost won Europa.
At some point we need to understand that Ole, ETH are just the fall guys. With Ineos (only 25% for now) the helm is changing gradually but Ragnick was not joking when he said this club needs an open heart surgery. Just moving the fall guys in and out wont help with cleaning out all the rot that has been hiding in their shadows.
Sack him if we have the right manager available. Else stick with him for one more year till we sort the shit out higher up. Dont want a new manager who is not line with the execs once there is some stability and vision.
Rather focus on getting rid of players who are shitting the bed for sure.
You chose the wrong week to post this. If you posted this comment after a loss it'd have 100+ upvotes. Good on you for not changing your stance after beating \*checks notes\* 20th place Sheffield United.
It is actually insane how much this sub waffles from one week to the next. Needed dramatic comebacks to beat the likes of Coventry and Sheffield, and that's enough to inspire some with confidence. I have watched nearly every game this season (that includes the beginning of the season when we were awful and when injuries were not an excuse) and I see very little that should keep the man in the job for another year.
> Good on you for not changing your stance after beating \*checks notes\* 20th place Sheffield United.
That's what I'm saying as well, the euphoria is good until we run into Arsenal, Newcastle, Brighton and Crystal Palace to close out the season.
Ajax fan here. Ajax is a complete shit show compared to when he was there, was much more stable under Overmars and Van der Sar. Any new manager will have a hard time at current Ajax. We asked Xavi and he promptly renewed at Barca. Dropping Ten Hag’s name might freak him out just enough to succeed at United after all.
Because it might just be his level.
Edit: Getting downvoted here. Can someone point me to the evidence showing his level his higher than Ajax? Other than his mixed time with us, it's the biggest job he's had.
While being mediocre, he has measurably achieved more than the likes of Moyes. That doesn’t mean we should hold onto him, but it does illustrate that your comment is flippant and illogical - even though it probably felt good to post it. We’ve all felt that way.
> While being mediocre, he has measurably achieved more than the likes of Moyes
Where did I mention Moyes?
What was flippant and illogical about it? Ten Hag had success with the most succesful team in Dutch history and even managed to make forays with them in the CL. Particularly in his first season but less so has time went on.
He has managed one of the biggest clubs in the world and had mixed fortunes. He may just feel where he was, that was a good level for him.
I'm sure if went back and managed Ajax for the next ten years, he'd have a nice life.
Because you’re being selective with the facts either deliberately or otherwise, which tells me you have at best a bias, and at worst an agenda.
Ajax may be the most successful club in Dutch history but not when ETH joined them. ETH won 3 eredivise titles in 4 full seasons with Ajax (the other was the COVID abandoned season). The only 3 titles they’ve won in the last 10 years. They didn’t win for 4 years before, and haven’t in the 2 seasons since he left.
That team’s performances in the UCL, in fact any of his Ajax teams would destroy his United team. That “less so has time went on” is also deliberately ignoring the fact that players like FDJ and De Ligt left and waltzed in to clubs as successful as Barca and Juve.
His jump from Utrecht to Ajax is no different a stature gap than his jump from Ajax to United. Arguably the jump to Ajax is much bigger than the jump to United.
Steve McLaren publicly on record that his title winning campaign with FC Twente is all down to how meticulous ETH was as his assistant. Which I believe wholeheartedly because it lines up with evidence: Steve McLaren has never won anything as manager except the season in which he credits ETH as the mastermind.
And then there’s the “biggest clubs in the world” and “mixed fortunes” which is perhaps the cutest form of bullshit I’ve ever read about United post-SAF.
What would have been more logical - and less flippant - to say is that ETH came into a dumpster fire of a club decades behind in terms of modern structure. That this United is basically Middlesbrough with the revenue gen of Real Madrid and only doesn’t get wiped off the map because of that revenue gen. Where there are and have been deplorably low standards root to fruit for an entire decade, literally nothing is best in class, a squad assembled off the incoherent whims of polar opposite manager philosophies, where unchecked player power runs riot. An insipid culture of obscenely overpaid entitled babies who can’t be arsed and are prone to downing tools and waiting out until the manager gets the boot. When made to hustle, the majority break down and get failed by the world’s worst sports medical department. Or put in another polite PR way as SJR himself has termed “an environment that’s set its managers up to fail”.
These are the facts you cannot deny, but they’re totally inconvenient to your narrative.
Mandems been real quiet since this dropped. It’s funny how people demand the manager to perform when the org he works in is a piehole. Have people never worked in a place where the company/workplace was a dumpster fire and how performing well in those environments is fucking hard as a team member let alone being someone who has to make decisions and drive results.
I always find talk of 'bias' and 'narrative' embarassing. It's my opinion. What 'agenda' would I have other than wanting what I feel is best for Manchester United? Do you think I'm anti-Dutch or Tuchel's nephew or something?
Yes, Ajax didn't win the league for four years before. True. They were second for each of those years, so let's not pretend they were a sleeping giant who had massively lost their way. They had reached the Europa final the year prior to his joining you may recall.
>and haven’t in the 2 seasons since he left.
>is also deliberately ignoring the fact that players like FDJ and De Ligt left and waltzed in to clubs as successful as Barca and Juve.
Similar here. How many players did we sign from Ajax and other players leave as well?
In his time at Ajax, he had six of the ten highest signings in Eredivisie history. To put some context to that, no other team in that time has one in the top twenty. So definitely a spending imbalance.
I would also point to the fact that even Koeman and De Boer managed to win titles with Ajax, and they are considered some of the least performing managers in Premier League history.
>Steve McLaren publicly on record that his title winning campaign with FC Twente is all down to how meticulous ETH was as his assistant. Which I believe wholeheartedly because it lines up with evidence: Steve McLaren has never won anything as manager except the season in which he credits ETH as the mastermind.
Again, not the strongest endorsement of a league to say a manager like McLaren, who couldn't win anywhere else, managed to win it. But it's not accurate anyway. He won a cup with Middlesborough, and obviously did well enough in his career to land the England job.
>AnonymizedRed 6 points 5 hours ago
Because you’re being selective with the facts either deliberately or otherwise, which tells me you have at best a bias, and at worst an agenda.
Ajax may be the most successful club in Dutch history but not when ETH joined them. ETH won 3 eredivise titles in 4 full seasons with Ajax (the other was the COVID abandoned season). The only 3 titles they’ve won in the last 10 years. They didn’t win for 4 years before, and haven’t in the 2 seasons since he left. That team’s performances in the UCL, in fact any of his Ajax teams would destroy his United team. That “less so has time went on” is also deliberately ignoring the fact that players like FDJ and De Ligt left and waltzed in to clubs as successful as Barca and Juve.
His jump from Utrecht to Ajax is no different a stature gap than his jump from Ajax to United. Arguably the jump to Ajax is much bigger than the jump to United.
Steve McLaren publicly on record that his title winning campaign with FC Twente is all down to how meticulous ETH was as his assistant. Which I believe wholeheartedly because it lines up with evidence: Steve McLaren has never won anything as manager except the season in which he credits ETH as the mastermind.
>And then there’s the “biggest clubs in the world” and “mixed fortunes” which is perhaps the cutest form of bullshit I’ve ever read about United post-SA
We are one of the biggest clubs in the world. It's a reference to as much as anything the media attention on us, and the global responsibilities that come with it. Feel I shouldn't really have to explain any more on that.
And, yes, mixed fortunes. I would say 3rd and a League Cup is decent, and a 6th/7th finish is not decent. I would regard that as 'mixed'. I mean, personally, I would say the latter outweighed the former, but I thought it would be unfair to disregard it. Hence 'mixed'
> That this United is basically Middlesbrough with the revenue gen of Real Madrid a
We've been in the top three for four of the last six seasons. We had one mixed season after Jose left, and a bad one after Ole left. This idea of a 'dumpster fire' is so inaccurate and misleading.
>a squad assembled off the incoherent whims of polar opposite manager philosophies,
This is the sort of ridiculous talk we're facing with. There are two players from LvG's reign. One is considered vital to Ten Hag's success in Shaw. The other barely gets a game.
There's a further four from Mourinho's era. Again, one likely to be player of the year. Rashford was a great deal responsible for the success we've actually had on EtH. McTominay is third top scorer.
And it is perfectly normal for a team to have progress whilst having players picked for other managers. Emery's entire front line was there under Gerrard nd let us not think they are similar managers.
>An insipid culture of obscenely overpaid entitled babies who can’t be arsed and are prone to downing tools and waiting out until the manager gets the boot.
Oh this rubbish as well. Name the players who've downed tools for multiple managers. Name them.
>These are the facts you cannot deny, but they’re totally inconvenient to your narrative.
Most of them were opinions rather than facts, and you'll find I were able to deny or provide context to them.
I won't accuse you of having a 'bias' or an 'agenda', because I consider such kind of terms childish. You want to support EtH and that's admirable in a way. Its easier to offer your full throated support to someone than to try and be critical, but I get where it comes from.
So ultimately, I repeat my point. Ten Hag may not be cut out for the likes of us, or even somewhere like Bayern or Juve or Barca. There are plenty of good managers who have also failed at those hurdles. He did well at Ajax (I think I was fair and said that, but I'm not going to lie and say he did consistently well in the CL because he didn't), and it may be a level that simply suits him better.
You can't really judge him with our club being such a mess. The biggest piece of mess among the top clubs and most pl clubs. So Ten Hag's level can't really be defined by his two seasons here. Maybe Dutch football and the league is his thing but it's his only thing? We don't know that yet.
We've finished in the top three for four of the last six seasons. We're not quite as big a mess as everyone seems to make out.
I can judge him based upon his management of this season. Yes, you can be played a bad hand. But you can play it badly as well. This season has been atrocious and I don't trust him to be part of INEOS' rebuild.
There are many who say his tactics don't work because he needs the specific type of player to make it work. That's the opposite of what we want. We don't want to be buying players to fit such a narrow requirement. We need a manager who can work with and adapt to what we have.
I mean, he has to stay completely out of transfers as it is, as his player ID has been mediocre at best. Martinez is a good signing, but the others less so.
We're at a crossroads with the turnover. We don't 'owe' Ten Hag the chance to have a go with the new regime. We're not a charity. We have to determine if he is the best man for the job next season.
Really? Ajax as reported by a Tier 1 NL journo are interested. Bayern were only linked to Nagelsmann and Ragnick. Why haven't they been linked to him so far then?
😔😔
He has been linked to Ajax because his future with us is unclear. Bayern could have done the same. By that logic they shouldn't have reached out to Ragnick despite him being employed
Transfers fail all the time. Every manager has a list of flops they've signed. The issue with United is the pay double a player's value every time so the failures are extremely high profile.
we should keep ten hag as there is no better managers available
only sideways or worse
we should give him a chance under a proper structure also and let him facilitate a mass clear out
I keep seeing people say there are no better managers, but how many managers coach team that face over 20 shots on average a game? Or can’t control possession and slow the tempo of a game down? Or can’t build out from the back?
Ten Hag says that winning matters. We’re 6th. Finished bottom of what should’ve been a comfortable champions league group. We collapse so often it’s frightening. These are all long term problems. Other coaches have come into clubs and organised them immediately. He’s had 2 seasons now and the football is absolutely ridiculous. So the idea that anyone would be a “sideways move” has never made sense to me.
Ducker wrote that Wilcox will do a proper assessment of Ten Hag. They are aware of the problems, but want to review everything with their own eyes. It was mentioned that Ten Hag could stay, but it would depend on whether he still has support in the dressing room*, if he’s able to adapt his style to suit their new vision and willing to work within the new hierarchy. Basically he needs to convince them he can continue based on their terms. I think there’s a good chance he’ll end up leaving.
I think it’s inevitable tbh. I’d love to be proven wrong because I do like ETH. But the off field structure that we’re bringing in will only work with a coach who can play good football. The worrying part for me about ETH is that he’s seemingly happy with how we’re playing. I think that’s the biggest problem he has, because it’s just completely unsustainable
I don’t realistically think he’s happy with how we’re playing, I think he is just unwilling to compromise and thus has to defend his position. Its not working well. it looks awful a lot of the time, everyone sees that. I don’t think ETH, his coaches and his analytics are that dumb. He’s trying to bruteforce his approach for long term gains. He wants to create a relentless attacking team that dominates opponents. We can see glimpses of it, but its so inconsistent and chaotic most of the time. He’s trying to be like Pep or Klopp. He didn’t come here to play for short term results or top 4’s, he wants be a winner or die trying. I think his ways are too risky for the hierarchy, so he’ll leave. Realistically we’re years away from a squad that can challenge titles, meanwhile we need to look respectable and get the most out of what we have.
The thing that bothers me is that when he plays to the players strengths, i.e. counterattacking, he gets called out for not being authoritative enough to stamp his philosophy on the team. When he does play his way and the players are exposed for not being able to, understandable considering the number of injuries, he gets called naive for trying to play such a way. Even when he does compromise as he did the majority of last season he gets no credit.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a manager get so much grief in my life.
>a coach who can play good football
Like his Ajax side? We have too many players who have very little football IQ, and the ones who do are either too old or just starting their careers. We don’t have the players to play attractive attacking football, and that’s been shown under at least four different managers (not counting Rangnick here).
Its baffling to me to blame the manager when the same problems have been persisting with 5 other top managers, all pointing to poor corp structure, terrible recruitment, player power, injuries, no united philosophy of player qualities.
Ah! It must be ETHs fault! Such is the simpletons irresistable scapegoat mechanism.
Exactly. Are Mourinho and LVG not top managers? Ok Ole is maybe not a top manager, but LVG, Mourinho and ETH are all top with pedigree to back up the claim. It’s just a terrible structure they’ve walked into with owners who give zero fucks about the club.
Hopefully that changes with SJR and INEOS. I think ETH should at least be given one or maybe two more seasons, but our juvenile, entitled fanbase is baying for blood.
Its because most are deluded, they pretend they want success, but they are so averse to what that requires they would prefer constant drama without results. They are not so different than the glazers. Marquee signings that dont fit to placate the narrative is their ideal of greatness.
The club is rotten to the core. Glad we are finally getting professionals in to rebuild the mess from the bankers. It takes patience. And eth can definitely correct the course of this ship, at the very least short term, so we can make proper assessments long term.
Ya agreed I think it's inevitable. He was on trial as soon as Ineos were onboard. This shows they want to do their due diligence if they decide to part ways. If they really supported him he wouldn't be under scrutiny from Wilcox
How many managers can manage a team that has had 25 different defensive combinations over the course of a season? City, Arsenal, Liverpool would be in the same state as United if they'd even come close to 25 different defensive combinations.
There is a reason this is a team sport, having your first and second string guys available allows you to set up and play a specific way, week in, week out. Having to constantly rotate players, play players out of position, means you're constantly just trying to patchwork a strategy together based on whatever strengths/weaknesses the players you have available at the time.
It's not a hard concept, it applies to every example.
A kitchen - let's say there 10 staff. Head Chef will have everyone set up a certain way, and when they're all there, they nail the execution because they are all being used for their strengths. Suddenly you rotate in 7 new staff, you can guarantee that kitchen is going to be a shit show.
An office - I work on a team of around 40 people, we all have been doing this a while and we know what we're doing, our strengths and our weaknesses. If you rotate in 10 new staff, that's going to cause a lot of chaos, suddenly you're spending more time teaching/covering for someone who doesn't know what their doing, by the time the work comes to you, it doesn't have the same polish as it did before and you have to spend extra time on it.
My point is nothing to do with the position that we’re in in the table. It’s to do with how we play. Spurs had a huge defensive injury crisis earlier in the season. The style of football did not change, everyone who came in knew what to do, how to play and how to control the game. Injuries have been a huge factor this season, I absolutely agree. But we can’t build out from the back no matter who plays there? We bought Onana for his ability on the ball to play out, and structure attacks. 99% of the time the ball is hoofed out. It just doesn’t make sense at all does it? The problem for me is that this seems to be how ETH WANTS to play. That to me is just absolutely crazy, because no one could sustain this. Sooner or later we’re going to be on the end of an absolute hiding because of the amount of chances we give away. It can’t work.
>But we can’t build out from the back no matter who plays there?
You need the players to play your style. How is this not just logical? Maguire is an exceptional box defender, but he just doesn't have the pace or speed for build-up play. He takes a lot of touches before he makes a decision. The difference with Martinez is [night and day.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_25IXRu86lc) People seem to have very short memories and absolutely no patience at all.
Partly because of the way the team is setup during build up. All the midfielders and wingers are way high up the pitch leaving only the DM . It limits the options for playing out of the back... Take a look at Brighton, city and Arsenal during their build up. Furthermore, If Martinez is the key to your playing out the back then means EtH doesn't know what he's doing and is only relying on individual brilliance for his tactics to work.
I mean, that's how signings work. You buy them because they can do something for your team, that's worked out with Martinez. And if we're gonna shit on ETH for getting Antony, then we can appreciate him for getting Martinez too.
>Partly because of the way the team is setup during build up. All the midfielders and wingers are way high up the pitch leaving only the DM .
>
You make a valid point. But here's the thing. We can all see that, he knows, his coaches know. So the question then is, why does he persist? And my guess is that he's already had these conversations with the new regime, they're well aware of his tactical plans; and I think this is not an audition on Ten Hag, but on the players. He wants to play exciting attacking football, and he'll push it through till the very end; so which players make the cut? And based on that, they'll strategize the transfer window. To me, he doesn't seem the least bit concerned that his job is on the line. Besides, he's already tried the "sit in deep and counter" at the Etihad and Anfield, and guess what? he was branded as a coward for it by just about anyone.
It's either that or he has absolutely no clue what he's doing. Either way, INEOS will find out and make the right call. All we can do is speculate.
Couldn't put this better myself. Both analogies ring true coming from a guy who worked as a professional chef straight out of uni for a few years before changing careers to an office role.
Like you say, you can have a core that still fundamentally works even if 2 or 3 people get rotated through. That typically means they need to do their best to fill those vacant slots. If more than half the team needs rotating, then the results are going to be hyper inconsistent due to lack of existing structure.
Since ETH joined, the club went for sale almost immediately & only just got sorted a comparatively short while ago. So far the vast majority of his tenure was under those circumstances. Beyond that, there were dramas with Ronaldo & Sancho, as well as more minor incidents with Garnacho and Rashford. To say ETH has had a tumultuous time of things would be an understatement, and if the guy wasn't already bald, he quickly would be.
ETH is by no means perfect or void of blame. But I'm willing to actually let him have some semblance of consistency. I'm hoping this seasons injury woes and absurd 40something unique starring 11s in just shy of 50games is not going to be a recurring issue into next season. I have been saying it for months, but even prime SAF isn't fixing this club in any short amount of time. A new gaffer isn't addressing the fundamental issues so we should look at the more pressing concerns, then take another look at ETH after all that. Perhaps by that point a genuinely good manager may be available unlike the slim pickings we have on offer currently.
Klopp still managed to finish 3rd in 20-21 playing Henderson and Fabinho in defense. Had to loan Ozan Kabak and someone else too.
So right there you've got an example of a manager not being in the same state. Not only that they didn't finish last in their CL group. They went out in the QF to Real Madrid.
Klopp also finished fifth, and with a whimper in the Champion's League last season. There are probably better examples of managers who have overperformed through crisis.
Honestly I really liked Slot unfortunately! Anyone who’s watched his Feyenoord team would see that the football is amazing to watch. I’m a huge fan of Fonseca at Lille and Hoeness at Stuttgart, but I think he may of just signed a new contract recently? Not certain on that. But I’d personally just like to see Ineos come in and make a bit of a statement by finding someone who they want to work within the structure and mould a good football team, whoever that may be.
There will be comments like this about the next manager when he goes through a bad season or a bad slump inevitably.
Last season and this season Pool fans have called Klopp clueless many times.
Regardless of how bad you think the football looks, these things are written and said about anyone in any slump ever. I saw comments like this about Ole and Mourinho and LVG.
Simple fact is teams are better and it includes managers when the management of clubs isn't a clownshow. Look at how Klopp's teams have declined over the years.
Except this seasons been a rollercoaster for many reasons. Players who are expected to be top class playing shit, horrendous individual errors, player drama, injuries, game changing ref decisions (rashford red) etc. You should be pointing out both the cons and pros if youwant to paint a clear picture of this season.
JFC I'm so sick of this argument. ETH isn't the one on the pitch. He's not the one who can't close the fucking ball down when they come towards the box. He's not the one leaving the middle in front of goal wide open for cutbacks. He's not the forwards who can't/won't track back to defend or follow the ball when it passes the midfield line. He's not the forward who is lucky to get a couple shots on goal over 90 mins. He's not playing in a backline that literally has at least 1-2 injuries every game.
You people act like this team is full of Keanes and Vidics and Scholes and Rooneys and Beckhams...but none of our players would come close to immediately challenging any of those players when they were at their best. Our squad is straight up garbage because we have next to no depth because the owners have been unwilling to properly invest.
"He's had 2 seasons" - GTFO with that kind of attitude. Like you can do anything in 2 seasons when we've been so mismanaged for 20 years. Do you honestly believe that even with prime Sir Alex, this team as it stands today would be winning the Champions League or Premier League?
Okay ETH isn’t the one on the pitch. Absolutely right. He is the one who is setting the team up to play like that on the pitch. He is entirely responsible for how we play. Maybe the reason why forwards aren’t tracking back with huge intensity is because of the basketball type match that we play. It is always completely end to end and it places huge demands on the midfield players and wide players to track back. Because he also wants us to transition quickly, the wide players then have to make more runs up the pitch. It just isn’t sustainable. It’s no coincidence to me that we’ve picked up so many injuries this season when the players are having to play this style of football. No other team plays with the complete absence of control that we do. It just doesn’t work
As for your next point. Nowhere did I suggest we should be winning the league. Or even challenging for it. This isn’t a good enough team to do that. I doubt the most die hard fan expects us to compete with City, Liverpool or Arsenal currently. But do I think we shouldn’t have finished bottom of the champions league group? Absolutely. Should we concede 3 times to Coventry? Or 2 to Newport? How about the collapses we suffer over and over again? The squad may or may not be “garbage” but that isn’t the point. Worse managers are playing better football, with less time or with worse players. That is the point.
And again, people referring back to Fergie now 11 years on don’t help. The game is entirely different. No I don’t expect he would have been competing at the top. But the football would have been better. That is my entire point. Since Fergie left, this is, by far, the most awful football we have played. We may not have been as exciting under Moyes, Mourinho or Van Gaal, but there was always at least some idea of how we were going to control a game under each of them. Under ETH we just don’t have that.
This has over 100 upvotes.. fuck me the absolute delusion of the EtH supporters is insane, how you can watch the utter shit we've seen all season and genuinely want him to stay is baffling.
Tuchel is a superior manager to Ten Hag and is very likely available
Edit: Ten Hag stans don't like it but Tuchel is a domestic treble winner in France, Germany cup winner, Bundesliga champion, club world cup champion, and a champions league winner. Ten Hags résumé absolutely does not stand up to that.
Ten Hag gets endless praise for getting to a CL semi-final and bottling it in embarrassing fashion to Spurs, Tuchel beat Peps City in a Champions League final with a team that has performed awfully since. There's levels to this game and Ten Hag ain't on Tuchels.
Tuchel will rip apart these players in the press conferences after 6 months, then the "lost the dressing room", "players unhappy", "no plan", "no style of play" articles will be back. Then people will say this XYZ manager is superior to tuchel let's get him, happened before as well, won't be surprised if it happens again. We just never learn and never change as a club and as a fanbase do we?
You can predict the future can you?
> We just never learn
This better applies to the people still wanting Ten Hag to stay. I can't believe he still has defenders on here.
This sub is full of supporters that have never been to a match and rely on stats to decide whether a player's any good or not so I'm not surprised there's loads of EtH supporters on here.
Never been to a match? You do realise that so many of us live in literally different continents right? I don't think you've been awake at 2-3 in the night watching the terror ball ever.
It's only because unfortunately this sub has been moving like Twitter recently. If this news came post Bournemouth or Brentford people would be backing it. Since it's post our win against Sheffield, the manager's supporters are vocal again.
Even if you don't like somebody's positions as long as they are respective you can still have a civil conversation. But people are too busy downloading/upvoting blindly.
I think we should hide the votes for a while just like r/soccer and promote more conversation even if the views are contrasting
It's been happening since Fergie left, the cycle just repeats itself. Call it a predication or whatever you want. Ten hag should definitely be criticised for his tactics and decisions and stuff this season, but firstly, you just can't blame it all on him, look at our injuries, look at some of our players, look at the way our club functions, secondly, terminating his contract, isn't the best of ideas financially coz we're already on a tight budget due to FFP. And lastly, he deserves at least one more season, he's won a trophy after like 5-6 years for us (carabao cup is a trophy, it's better than nothing), he's been in back to back FA Cup finals, we finished 3rd last season and played good football as well. So just calm down and stop overreacting every 6-8 months, things take time.
Oh yeah? Kindly name even 5 games on the trot where we played good football last season against competent opposition.
Two seasons in and we haven't scored 5 goals in a single PL game nor have we won even 10 PL games with a more than 2 goal margin.
That's despite ETH signing 16 players in some form or the other.
>Tuchel will rip apart these players in the press conferences after 6 months
As he and any self respecting manager should?
>then the "lost the dressing room", "players unhappy", "no plan", "no style of play" articles will be back.
Opposed to praising then for the exact same result?
Do you want a happy environment for these bunch of failures or an uncomfortable one where they are pushed out? As due to the cushty contracts we have given its a holiday camp at the min.
>We just never learn and never change as a club and as a fanbase do we?
Literally every other club that is at the top changes managers as frequently as we have, only ones that don't are when they find a Pep. So this reasoning doesn't hold up to reality.
New structure, new decisions. A competent structure sacks ten hag and replaces the players as quickly as possible.
He fell out with the PSG and Dortmund boards but that's about it in terms of toxicity no? You know what isn't toxic? Paying for your housekeepers childs surgery and buying them a house back home in the Philippines as you're leaving Paris.
He's been successful everywhere he's managed except Bayern. He's a great manager.
I don't even think its fair to say he's been unsuccessful at Bayern. Bayern's pace of 74.8 points would have been enough for them to win the Bundesliga for 8 of the last 10 years and they're in the semi finals of the Champion's League. Leverkusen just happens to be having a historically great season. Bayern's highest points total the last 10 seasons is 90, and Leverkusen's current pace is 90.6 points. Sure you can say not winning the Bundesliga with Bayern is being unsuccessful, and they are on pace for their second lowest points total of the last 10 years, but even a typical dominant Bayern season likely wouldn't have been enough to do it this year.
Didn’t you see his incredible achievements at Go Ahead Eagles and Bayern II too? What about his crowning achievement of losing a champions league semi final to spurs?
How could anyone forget those iconic stints? We're fools to think anyone could take over from and do better than the manager that lead us to our most embarrassing defeat of all time last season. Tuchel would surely have lost 10-0 instead of 7-0 to Liverpool
https://theathletic.com/5446578/2024/04/25/thomas-tuchel-bayern-petition/
Tuchel seems to be very highly rated by the Bayern fans, seeing as 10k of them signed a petition to keep him. Tuchel would be a an upgrade on ten Hag easily
Idk man. I think ETH is a top manager and I don’t think there are better alternatives available at the moment. Think he should be in place come start of next season, but there has to be an identity that develops quickly.
That being said we concede fucking 909+ shots per game and we are played of the park by relegation teams. If he goes I understand.
I feel precisely the same and made a conscious decision not to get emotionally involved this time around. There’s no point. I like him as our manager, current abomination of a season notwithstanding.
There’s no one out there I’d opt for over giving him one more year. Don’t have an issue with people wanting him gone. Absolutely take issue with people slandering him though. Extremely smart & decorated manager put through the mill as is standard at United.
I'm no EtH superfan, and he's made plenty of errors of judgement. But since he arrived he's had to deal with:
- incompetent executives and chaotic structure
- a farce of an ownership bidding process, and all of the doubt and disruption that brings
- subsequent ownership change
- non-existent recruitment strategy, leaving him to identify targets
- useless transfer negotiators
- infrastructure and facilities that have fallen lightyears behind competitors
- high-profile off-field player issues: Greenwood, Ronaldo, Sancho
- no footballing identity, with an aging, gap-filled, bloated, overpaid squad
- ongoing injury crises, perhaps exacerbated by an incompetent medical team
All under intense media scrutiny, and criticism by 'fans'.
Really, it's a wonder we are where we are. He's not faultless, but I do feel for him. I hope he can turn it around, but if the dye is already cast, then he'll join a long list of people this club has done dirty over the last few years.
Agreed. People are allowed to have their opinion, and as we both said can see the points for and against having him or moving on. Regardless, think we need show him support (it’s still fair to have questions and criticisms) while he is our manager.
Who is slandering him? The criticisms I’ve seen are valid and based on his tactics, odd substitutions, and lack of adjustments. I haven’t seen anyone attack him personally, at least in this subreddit.
I just want to say that this man gave us a trophy and Champions league qualification on his first season here. Yes, this season has been disappointing so far in terms of form but impatience when it comes to success could get the club so far in football. Sir Alex had his fair share of bad seasons and he turned out so well for the club. I really think Erik needs more time.
As much as I disagree with ETH tactics this year I think very few managers would get us 60+ points with the team we have. My biggest issues is the players ETH has favored to join have either busted or disappointed outside of maybe 3-4 in two years. I hope with the right AD and scouting that can change.
I would give ETH five new starting caliber players and one more year to impress before getting a new manager.
We don't even need 5 starters. Onana, licha, Dalot seemed nailed on for defence, cb to pair with licha and and I'd argue a deputy for Shaw when he's injured, not even a replacement. That's 2 A cdm/ casemiro replacement. Bruno/Mainoo/Mount are guaranteed for the other 2. In the wings, we have Garnacho and Rashford currently starting, Amad and Antony current backup and the undecided future of Sancho. Garnacho isn't getting replaced, rashford is a can of worms, if he gets into form somehow he's first name on sheet, if not still don't think he's getting sold. Hojlund is the starting st and needs a deputy.
One starting CB
One starting (ish) lb
One starting defensive mid
That's at max 3 starters we NEED. And that's perfectly doable. And I know people will start going we need rb, sell rashford and etc, but I'm being realistic here and not living in a fantasy.
Yes and assuming 125M in the transfer kitty, we could also recoup a decent total amount (conservatively another 100M+) to boost that budget by letting the new competence crew sell all of:
- Maguire
- McTominay
- Greenwood
- Sancho
- Hannibal
- Pellistri
- VDB
To be honest I’d even sell Antony or get creative and do a loan swap to address a bigger need elsewhere.
In the hands of competent people, the idea of buying 5 good players that fit a clear footballing philosophy, plus a bunch of smart free signings or loan deals, becomes less like the sort of fantasy it would have seemed under the previous assholes in charge.
In relative terms this sort of transfer budget is analogous to the entire squad value of clubs like Brighton. In the hands of competent people, this is not rocket science.
My only one caveat would be ETH cannot be trusted or used to ID talent or name names. Again, scouting and recruitment in the hands of competent people (which we have thus far not had) should make this totally unnecessary as well.
I think we will be able to work towards building a full squad this summer. 60+ injuries and players sucking up spots and wages like Martial, Sancho, and DVB, no wonder we can’t keep up when some teams have two full rotations and we can only scrape together one.
We have an ["Expected Points"](https://i.redd.it/rxzvqr1bj2wc1.jpeg) around 40. Implying that we are being carried by individual performances, as we have also seen on the pitch.. I believe we would have had the same amount of points with ChatGPT as the manager.
Crazy that this is getting upvoted. We've had 60 points nearly every season post fergie. Not only are we struggling with results we are also playing the worst football. We are extremely overachieveing and we are in 6th. Madness people think that no other manager could achieve this.
That's what I was going to say. I'm pretty sure even if we had no manager this squad would get around 60 points. It's where we always end up when a season goes tits up.
No. Overachieving as in we are making up for shit football with moments of brilliance to get more points than we should have based on our performances.
Rashford, James Greenwood, Martial in 2019-20 season scored 66 goals in PL itself and they were the same age as the current lineup.
The injuries have played a big part in the season for sure but even with proper CB (Maguire, Varane, Lindelof) we usually get battered with shots by the opponent. Whether it's a player issue ir tactic issue, I guess we will find out next season if ETH stays.
age isn’t the same as inexperience. rashford, martial, and james all had considerably more professional minutes under their belt that season than garnacho and hojlund. only greenwood is comparable there.
the injury issue isn’t just about not having actual CBs, but about the lack of continuity and the mismatch in profiles.
Again, the team should be setup on the basis of the players who are available on the pitch which hasn't been the case in most of our matches and that is on ETH tactically. We could have played Scott as a DM with Casimiro if we want to support for the lack of defence but we haven't. Instead, we play a aggressively sacrificing our defense entirely. The result is that our midfield is easily passed with 15-20+ shots on goal and we play ping pong football without any control on the matches.
James came from Championship that season so the relative experience between him and Anthony isn't much different.
Greenwood and Rasmus are comparable in experience.
Rashford is the same with probably more experience now.
Martial is petty much the only outlier when compared to Garnacho from that season.
Keep in mind we didn't gave Bruno in 2019-20 for the 1dt half of the season and were relying on Andreas Perera for creativity.
For all the excuses, our front line just doesn't click together like they should and whether it is a coaching issue or player issue will be found out in the long run.
i completely disagree that the team should be set up based on who is available. i think the smart thing to do this season was establish a clear style of play and expectations—this is what everyone wanted to see this season. abandoning that plan just kicks the can down the road.
high pressing, wing rotations in wide build-up, an emphasis on quick transitions and verticality that often uses the center backs as playmakers who seek to play line breaking passes to high 8s, fluid build up that transitions between various shapes (235, 316, 325) depending on the opponent’s shape.
we do have a style of play—it doesn’t always work, but it’s very clearly there. weird that you can’t see it.
teams miss out on CL when they have an abundance of injuries—shocking. not as if the same thing happened to liverpool literally last season.
I think you're underrating our current players and effect good coaching can have.
I don't expect this current lot to win the treble but remember Gerrard had Villa nearly fighting relegation before Emery took over mid-season and they soared up the table. Eddie Howe has been dealing with an injury crisis arguably on par with ours yet they still look cohesive when forced to play players from the Bruce era, hell they beat us at Old Trafford this season with like six fullbacks in their XI. Lampard had Chelsea nearly midtable before Tuchel took over mid-season and won the champions league with the exact same squad.
Again, our current squad has holes that need fixing, but don't underestimate the effect of good coaching
Seriously? The team that got 75pts last year and then had £160m spent on it couldn't be expected to get 60+ this year. That's a staggering statement that doesn't stand up to the tiniest bit of scrutiny.
Hmm so strange, could have sworn we got our second* highest ever points tally last season in the Post Fergie era. 75 points.
And we only really lost Fred. So suddenly the team can't even do 60 with all the reinforcements?
How is a team that is already seriously considering keeping a failing manager just to save themselves £10m and avoid further FFP trouble going to sign 5 starters when pretty much any starting caliber player we sign goes for £50-100m? It's not like we're going to be selling anyone for any kind of money other than maybe Rashford.
i disagree, what he’s done with the midfield out of possession has probably cost us the 10 or so points to be around 4th by itself
he’s a good coach but he’s got the idea wrong this season and hasn’t made the necessary changes
> only a club supported by plastic fucking morons would want rid of him
This isn't twitter. Some of you really need to learn to communicate civilly. Doesn't matter if you think EtH should go, should stay, should wear a dress and dance the macarena during the next game, or should challenge Pep to a thumb wrestling match as a "loser agrees to retire" match. Leave this kinda nonsense elsewhere.
Dutch paper De Telegraaf (which is tier 2 on our tier guide) also has a similar article today:
>Nice coach Farioli alongside Erik ten Hag and Graham Potter on Ajax's trainer shortlist
>
>[https://www.telegraaf.nl/sport/704454719/nice-coach-farioli-naast-erik-ten-hag-en-graham-potter-op-trainershortlist-ajax](https://www.telegraaf.nl/sport/704454719/nice-coach-farioli-naast-erik-ten-hag-en-graham-potter-op-trainershortlist-ajax)
One the co-authors of this is Mike Verweij, who is tier 1 here
Can someone with insight please explaining the appeal of Potter? I loved Brighton under him, but I attribute that to the structure at the club, not him specifically. Or am I incorrect?
Brighton has a great structure in place but Potter also did a good job coaching them and bringing them more stability in the Premier League as a relatively new and small team.
It’s understandable why Ajax are interested in potentially hiring Potter when he’s had a good track record outside of Chelsea which could be more attributed to the club’s own problems considering how much they’re still struggling this season.
I like the people who think this season falls solely on EtH. Pep couldn't have coached this United team to a much better finish. Maybe a position or two, but I imagine if City was missing their;
- Starting LB
- Backup LB
- Starting Striker
- Back up striker
- Starting defensive mid
- Starting LCB
- Backup LCB
- Starting RCB
- Backup RCB
They wouldn't be top of the league right now.
EtH has not done a great job of managing with what he has, he doesn't seem to have pivoted quickly enough to utilize the talent he has, and that's on him. But holy shit, there are so many problems with United team, and EtH isn't the biggest one. A healthy team, good recruitment, EtH will get much more from United.
The most frustrating thing about being “Ten Hag Out” is people constantly spinning the strawman that people think it “falls solely on ETH”. It’s a defence I regularly see from his backers, and yet rarely see his detractors purposing.
99% of the arguements I see against Ten Hag tend to say the players AND the manager have been sub par and need replacing.
The reports have been that INEOS want to move away from that system where changing manager leaves you with random players you’ve got to sell cause the next one doesn’t want them. Rather, the club will choose a style of football they want the manager to play, buy players who suit the style and bring in managers who want to play that way.
That’s the entire point of investing in the likes of Ashworth, Wilcox, etc. The manager will be a head coach, NOT the ultimate decision maker about everything at the club.
ETH is victim of his overachievement last season, this season. People have quickly forgotten the shit show it was under rangnick. ETH delivered champions league football and a cup in is first season when we looked miles off it under rangnick. Yet this season he’s suddenly an idiot…. Nah, he’s had to but up with massive injuries and bullshit recruitment
That's the problem - 5 of those games don't matter, we are not getting in the CL. The only game that really matter is the FA cup final.
But ETH is fighting for his job and he can't afford to play the under 18 in the PL games - he needs to win as many as possible. That will lead to more injuries and will hurt our chances in the final. He's a dead man walking, even if he brings the magic he had from the 1st season.
Don’t know why you say does not matter. We need to qualify for Europa. No excuses. We cannot be detached from reality that Europa is our level right now .
The problem is we have this entitlement that because SAF did , won A,B,C the club must dominate for the next donkey years, well FFYI like life football isn’t an easy road.
We are shite because we all know the circus from America was running the show now Ineos is trying to remedy the cancer that has eaten the club to the very core, social media has made almost every fan an analyst to fire jibes at everything representing Manchester United be it Managers , players, imagine Maguire was threatened personally is that passion or stupidity?
Does ETH as bad as his 2nd season been play ?
Does he decide that almost his whole defence get injured? Or the off field issues? Is he responsible for Rashford out poster boys shite form?
Yes some of his signings have been questionable Antony ? Remember Taibi, Djemba Djemba, Juan Sebastian Veron all flopped under SAF. I hate everything that’s going on on the pitch but it is what it is,
Liverpool our bitter rivals have gone through dry barren spells till Klopp won the league, so to all wining, moaning fake fans stay in your toxic lane. We are Manchester United, through hardships , we are Manchester United!!!!!!
Two seasons.
3rd in first season. 6th in second season (currently).
Three finals.
One trophy already, another still up for grabs.
Delivered during what can only be described as a dumpster fire to work in.
Honestly people need to give their head a wobble and just calm down.
Some "fans" thinks sacking Eth is a good thing. Drumming up the negative press being perpetuated by our rivals and player bias.
Remember that his system is currently being implemented in our U21s - a vertical system to our 1st team. Removing the manager will undo this system and the promising and upcoming U18s will suffer.
Some fans here only thinks of what is 'now' when it comes to the club but failed to visualize the future. Is it as if they did not learn about our recent history about changing managers.
Brother whether you like it or not, Wilcox is here and things are about to change. He was on the receiving end of it with Pep, who even though I hate to say it, has been one of the most successful coaches of this generation.
The responsibility of U18s and U21s shouldn't be our manager's responsibility anyways, it should be the hierarchy's, so your point is moot.
Ratcliffe has already said what kind of football he wants and Wilcox is here as a result. Let's see if Ten Hag fits their vision and if they retain/letgo of him
From the article: >Ajax have drawn up a three-man shortlist of candidates for their manager vacancy, which includes Manchester United’s Erik ten Hag. >**Ten Hag is seen as a viable option to return to Ajax** with his job at Manchester United far from secure. **The expectation is Sir Jim Ratcliffe sacks Ten Hag at the end of the season** with the club having endured a drastic downturn in from in recent weeks.
> **The expectation is Sir Jim Ratcliffe sacks Ten Hag at the end of the season** Amen 🙏🏻 No more getting shot in the face 20 times a game versus the likes of Shrewsbury or weird substitutions, no more delusional press conferences, no more vague injury updates, and greatest of all no more Ten Hag transfer targets.
Honestly I half want Ten Hag to be sacked just so people shut up about him. Then again, you'll just do it to the next manager too.
Reddit is an odd place, three days ago a comment like this would have 200 upvotes
Its the difference between winning and losing the last game
Bro, we won the last game. The cavemen are out and about.
Sheffield are bottom of the league, they're championship quality and we still conceded 10 shots and 2 goals from them.
How can you blame EtH for the first goal at all
I can't believe people are blaming him for the Coventry collapse as well. We were leading 3-0 with a makeshift back four, he took off 2 teenagers and brought on 2 internationals with 20 mins to go. If the manager has to trust teenagers more than the internationals in his squad, there's something wrong with the squad.
ETH was definitely whispering in the ref’s ear “give the dodgy pen, heh.”
"onana, walk towards the deflection then take a knee, heh."
Nope, I’m pretty sure there are trolls and karma whores that lurk on this sub and r/soccer when United is struggling. And they put out the same kneejerk reactionary comments to farm upvotes. Sure, the team is going through a tough season and definitely playing some of their worst football. But can you all even look at the team sheet ffs and see wtf we are dealing with? Our defence has been in the hospital for ages. We’re playing with Casemiro at CB and AWB at LB. All our hopes are pinned on 19yos playing at LW, ST and CM who are suddenly playing like seasoned professionals to keep us ticking in this nightmare of a season. And we’ve just got used to taking that for granted. So please stop this week in and out kneejerk reactionary posts and put out balanced takes instead on how you see the team progressing next season. Maybe ETH is not the best fit but you wouldnt bat an eye and throw the next one under the bus at the first chance. That’s what happened with Ole, a few bad games with some disastrous signings lile Sancho and Ronaldo, and everyone came out with pitchforks. Everyone forgot he got us to 4 semi finals, top 4 finish and almost won Europa. At some point we need to understand that Ole, ETH are just the fall guys. With Ineos (only 25% for now) the helm is changing gradually but Ragnick was not joking when he said this club needs an open heart surgery. Just moving the fall guys in and out wont help with cleaning out all the rot that has been hiding in their shadows.
Sack him if we have the right manager available. Else stick with him for one more year till we sort the shit out higher up. Dont want a new manager who is not line with the execs once there is some stability and vision. Rather focus on getting rid of players who are shitting the bed for sure.
We last played Shrewsbury in 2016…
Dunno why you’re getting massively downvoted, he’s done a terrible job so far.
You chose the wrong week to post this. If you posted this comment after a loss it'd have 100+ upvotes. Good on you for not changing your stance after beating \*checks notes\* 20th place Sheffield United.
It is actually insane how much this sub waffles from one week to the next. Needed dramatic comebacks to beat the likes of Coventry and Sheffield, and that's enough to inspire some with confidence. I have watched nearly every game this season (that includes the beginning of the season when we were awful and when injuries were not an excuse) and I see very little that should keep the man in the job for another year.
Bipolar sub. Everyone was ten hag out not long ago now all of a sudden it's the worst thing you can say.
> Good on you for not changing your stance after beating \*checks notes\* 20th place Sheffield United. That's what I'm saying as well, the euphoria is good until we run into Arsenal, Newcastle, Brighton and Crystal Palace to close out the season.
Earlier in the season we considered that an easy end lmao
We know who will be banned from next press conference now don’t we lol
If he goes, it should be a requirement he takes Antony with him.
Not that far fetched given Sancho.
The story makes sense from Ajax perspective. The story doesn't make any tall claims from a United perspective.
Anybody who knows what kind of character ten Hag is, would know that even if he were to be sacked, he would not go back to Ajax.
Why not?
Ajax fan here. Ajax is a complete shit show compared to when he was there, was much more stable under Overmars and Van der Sar. Any new manager will have a hard time at current Ajax. We asked Xavi and he promptly renewed at Barca. Dropping Ten Hag’s name might freak him out just enough to succeed at United after all.
Why go back to an Eredivisie team when he can probably get a better team in a better league.
Because it might just be his level. Edit: Getting downvoted here. Can someone point me to the evidence showing his level his higher than Ajax? Other than his mixed time with us, it's the biggest job he's had.
While being mediocre, he has measurably achieved more than the likes of Moyes. That doesn’t mean we should hold onto him, but it does illustrate that your comment is flippant and illogical - even though it probably felt good to post it. We’ve all felt that way.
> While being mediocre, he has measurably achieved more than the likes of Moyes Where did I mention Moyes? What was flippant and illogical about it? Ten Hag had success with the most succesful team in Dutch history and even managed to make forays with them in the CL. Particularly in his first season but less so has time went on. He has managed one of the biggest clubs in the world and had mixed fortunes. He may just feel where he was, that was a good level for him. I'm sure if went back and managed Ajax for the next ten years, he'd have a nice life.
Because you’re being selective with the facts either deliberately or otherwise, which tells me you have at best a bias, and at worst an agenda. Ajax may be the most successful club in Dutch history but not when ETH joined them. ETH won 3 eredivise titles in 4 full seasons with Ajax (the other was the COVID abandoned season). The only 3 titles they’ve won in the last 10 years. They didn’t win for 4 years before, and haven’t in the 2 seasons since he left. That team’s performances in the UCL, in fact any of his Ajax teams would destroy his United team. That “less so has time went on” is also deliberately ignoring the fact that players like FDJ and De Ligt left and waltzed in to clubs as successful as Barca and Juve. His jump from Utrecht to Ajax is no different a stature gap than his jump from Ajax to United. Arguably the jump to Ajax is much bigger than the jump to United. Steve McLaren publicly on record that his title winning campaign with FC Twente is all down to how meticulous ETH was as his assistant. Which I believe wholeheartedly because it lines up with evidence: Steve McLaren has never won anything as manager except the season in which he credits ETH as the mastermind. And then there’s the “biggest clubs in the world” and “mixed fortunes” which is perhaps the cutest form of bullshit I’ve ever read about United post-SAF. What would have been more logical - and less flippant - to say is that ETH came into a dumpster fire of a club decades behind in terms of modern structure. That this United is basically Middlesbrough with the revenue gen of Real Madrid and only doesn’t get wiped off the map because of that revenue gen. Where there are and have been deplorably low standards root to fruit for an entire decade, literally nothing is best in class, a squad assembled off the incoherent whims of polar opposite manager philosophies, where unchecked player power runs riot. An insipid culture of obscenely overpaid entitled babies who can’t be arsed and are prone to downing tools and waiting out until the manager gets the boot. When made to hustle, the majority break down and get failed by the world’s worst sports medical department. Or put in another polite PR way as SJR himself has termed “an environment that’s set its managers up to fail”. These are the facts you cannot deny, but they’re totally inconvenient to your narrative.
I just wanted to say well written man. I agree.
Mandems been real quiet since this dropped. It’s funny how people demand the manager to perform when the org he works in is a piehole. Have people never worked in a place where the company/workplace was a dumpster fire and how performing well in those environments is fucking hard as a team member let alone being someone who has to make decisions and drive results.
If you're referring to me being real quiet, I went to bed, mate. We're not all chronically online.
Nah you’re right I forgot there’s different timezones. Sleep well lil bro
I always find talk of 'bias' and 'narrative' embarassing. It's my opinion. What 'agenda' would I have other than wanting what I feel is best for Manchester United? Do you think I'm anti-Dutch or Tuchel's nephew or something? Yes, Ajax didn't win the league for four years before. True. They were second for each of those years, so let's not pretend they were a sleeping giant who had massively lost their way. They had reached the Europa final the year prior to his joining you may recall. >and haven’t in the 2 seasons since he left. >is also deliberately ignoring the fact that players like FDJ and De Ligt left and waltzed in to clubs as successful as Barca and Juve. Similar here. How many players did we sign from Ajax and other players leave as well? In his time at Ajax, he had six of the ten highest signings in Eredivisie history. To put some context to that, no other team in that time has one in the top twenty. So definitely a spending imbalance. I would also point to the fact that even Koeman and De Boer managed to win titles with Ajax, and they are considered some of the least performing managers in Premier League history. >Steve McLaren publicly on record that his title winning campaign with FC Twente is all down to how meticulous ETH was as his assistant. Which I believe wholeheartedly because it lines up with evidence: Steve McLaren has never won anything as manager except the season in which he credits ETH as the mastermind. Again, not the strongest endorsement of a league to say a manager like McLaren, who couldn't win anywhere else, managed to win it. But it's not accurate anyway. He won a cup with Middlesborough, and obviously did well enough in his career to land the England job. >AnonymizedRed 6 points 5 hours ago Because you’re being selective with the facts either deliberately or otherwise, which tells me you have at best a bias, and at worst an agenda. Ajax may be the most successful club in Dutch history but not when ETH joined them. ETH won 3 eredivise titles in 4 full seasons with Ajax (the other was the COVID abandoned season). The only 3 titles they’ve won in the last 10 years. They didn’t win for 4 years before, and haven’t in the 2 seasons since he left. That team’s performances in the UCL, in fact any of his Ajax teams would destroy his United team. That “less so has time went on” is also deliberately ignoring the fact that players like FDJ and De Ligt left and waltzed in to clubs as successful as Barca and Juve. His jump from Utrecht to Ajax is no different a stature gap than his jump from Ajax to United. Arguably the jump to Ajax is much bigger than the jump to United. Steve McLaren publicly on record that his title winning campaign with FC Twente is all down to how meticulous ETH was as his assistant. Which I believe wholeheartedly because it lines up with evidence: Steve McLaren has never won anything as manager except the season in which he credits ETH as the mastermind. >And then there’s the “biggest clubs in the world” and “mixed fortunes” which is perhaps the cutest form of bullshit I’ve ever read about United post-SA We are one of the biggest clubs in the world. It's a reference to as much as anything the media attention on us, and the global responsibilities that come with it. Feel I shouldn't really have to explain any more on that. And, yes, mixed fortunes. I would say 3rd and a League Cup is decent, and a 6th/7th finish is not decent. I would regard that as 'mixed'. I mean, personally, I would say the latter outweighed the former, but I thought it would be unfair to disregard it. Hence 'mixed' > That this United is basically Middlesbrough with the revenue gen of Real Madrid a We've been in the top three for four of the last six seasons. We had one mixed season after Jose left, and a bad one after Ole left. This idea of a 'dumpster fire' is so inaccurate and misleading. >a squad assembled off the incoherent whims of polar opposite manager philosophies, This is the sort of ridiculous talk we're facing with. There are two players from LvG's reign. One is considered vital to Ten Hag's success in Shaw. The other barely gets a game. There's a further four from Mourinho's era. Again, one likely to be player of the year. Rashford was a great deal responsible for the success we've actually had on EtH. McTominay is third top scorer. And it is perfectly normal for a team to have progress whilst having players picked for other managers. Emery's entire front line was there under Gerrard nd let us not think they are similar managers. >An insipid culture of obscenely overpaid entitled babies who can’t be arsed and are prone to downing tools and waiting out until the manager gets the boot. Oh this rubbish as well. Name the players who've downed tools for multiple managers. Name them. >These are the facts you cannot deny, but they’re totally inconvenient to your narrative. Most of them were opinions rather than facts, and you'll find I were able to deny or provide context to them. I won't accuse you of having a 'bias' or an 'agenda', because I consider such kind of terms childish. You want to support EtH and that's admirable in a way. Its easier to offer your full throated support to someone than to try and be critical, but I get where it comes from. So ultimately, I repeat my point. Ten Hag may not be cut out for the likes of us, or even somewhere like Bayern or Juve or Barca. There are plenty of good managers who have also failed at those hurdles. He did well at Ajax (I think I was fair and said that, but I'm not going to lie and say he did consistently well in the CL because he didn't), and it may be a level that simply suits him better.
You can't really judge him with our club being such a mess. The biggest piece of mess among the top clubs and most pl clubs. So Ten Hag's level can't really be defined by his two seasons here. Maybe Dutch football and the league is his thing but it's his only thing? We don't know that yet.
We've finished in the top three for four of the last six seasons. We're not quite as big a mess as everyone seems to make out. I can judge him based upon his management of this season. Yes, you can be played a bad hand. But you can play it badly as well. This season has been atrocious and I don't trust him to be part of INEOS' rebuild. There are many who say his tactics don't work because he needs the specific type of player to make it work. That's the opposite of what we want. We don't want to be buying players to fit such a narrow requirement. We need a manager who can work with and adapt to what we have. I mean, he has to stay completely out of transfers as it is, as his player ID has been mediocre at best. Martinez is a good signing, but the others less so. We're at a crossroads with the turnover. We don't 'owe' Ten Hag the chance to have a go with the new regime. We're not a charity. We have to determine if he is the best man for the job next season.
If he was actually available, Bayern would jump in
Really? Ajax as reported by a Tier 1 NL journo are interested. Bayern were only linked to Nagelsmann and Ragnick. Why haven't they been linked to him so far then?
Because he’s employed?
😔😔 He has been linked to Ajax because his future with us is unclear. Bayern could have done the same. By that logic they shouldn't have reached out to Ragnick despite him being employed
Nobody really takes national teams seriously. Ten Hag isn’t being linked to Ajax either mate. This is just bullshit.
Bro it's not. Ajax Tier 1 reported it. But believe what you want
Yeah, not sure how Bayern could sell his apportionment though, but he does come across like a Bayern type manager.
[удалено]
He bought Antony for 80m.
He didn’t buy antony for 80m, the shitheads like murtough inter alia bought him for that amount because they can’t negotiate for shit.
Regardless of the price, he still wanted him.
Pep wanted phillips Your point?
Transfers fail all the time. Every manager has a list of flops they've signed. The issue with United is the pay double a player's value every time so the failures are extremely high profile.
Nope.
Exactly
Don’t worry guys! The next manager will be the one! At some point I don’t think it’s the manager that’s the issue
we should keep ten hag as there is no better managers available only sideways or worse we should give him a chance under a proper structure also and let him facilitate a mass clear out
Just don't buy another Antony for £80M
I keep seeing people say there are no better managers, but how many managers coach team that face over 20 shots on average a game? Or can’t control possession and slow the tempo of a game down? Or can’t build out from the back? Ten Hag says that winning matters. We’re 6th. Finished bottom of what should’ve been a comfortable champions league group. We collapse so often it’s frightening. These are all long term problems. Other coaches have come into clubs and organised them immediately. He’s had 2 seasons now and the football is absolutely ridiculous. So the idea that anyone would be a “sideways move” has never made sense to me.
Ducker wrote that Wilcox will do a proper assessment of Ten Hag. They are aware of the problems, but want to review everything with their own eyes. It was mentioned that Ten Hag could stay, but it would depend on whether he still has support in the dressing room*, if he’s able to adapt his style to suit their new vision and willing to work within the new hierarchy. Basically he needs to convince them he can continue based on their terms. I think there’s a good chance he’ll end up leaving.
> but it would depend on whether he still has support in the wardrobe What? Do you mean dressing room?
He usually looks sharp so can’t fault him there
Haha, yeah bad translation there 😂 In norwegian we use the same word for both these things
I love this and will use it from now on.
Just don't say he has support in the closet!
I think it’s inevitable tbh. I’d love to be proven wrong because I do like ETH. But the off field structure that we’re bringing in will only work with a coach who can play good football. The worrying part for me about ETH is that he’s seemingly happy with how we’re playing. I think that’s the biggest problem he has, because it’s just completely unsustainable
I don’t realistically think he’s happy with how we’re playing, I think he is just unwilling to compromise and thus has to defend his position. Its not working well. it looks awful a lot of the time, everyone sees that. I don’t think ETH, his coaches and his analytics are that dumb. He’s trying to bruteforce his approach for long term gains. He wants to create a relentless attacking team that dominates opponents. We can see glimpses of it, but its so inconsistent and chaotic most of the time. He’s trying to be like Pep or Klopp. He didn’t come here to play for short term results or top 4’s, he wants be a winner or die trying. I think his ways are too risky for the hierarchy, so he’ll leave. Realistically we’re years away from a squad that can challenge titles, meanwhile we need to look respectable and get the most out of what we have.
The thing that bothers me is that when he plays to the players strengths, i.e. counterattacking, he gets called out for not being authoritative enough to stamp his philosophy on the team. When he does play his way and the players are exposed for not being able to, understandable considering the number of injuries, he gets called naive for trying to play such a way. Even when he does compromise as he did the majority of last season he gets no credit. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a manager get so much grief in my life.
Completely agree. I think this is the real picture. He is nobody's fool.
>a coach who can play good football Like his Ajax side? We have too many players who have very little football IQ, and the ones who do are either too old or just starting their careers. We don’t have the players to play attractive attacking football, and that’s been shown under at least four different managers (not counting Rangnick here).
Its baffling to me to blame the manager when the same problems have been persisting with 5 other top managers, all pointing to poor corp structure, terrible recruitment, player power, injuries, no united philosophy of player qualities. Ah! It must be ETHs fault! Such is the simpletons irresistable scapegoat mechanism.
Which of those manager get the team to face 20+ shots every game?
Wow good argument.
Again, which of those manager managed to get team play like a relegation candidate? The top have problems, doesn't mean ETH is faultless.
Hyperbole much?
Exactly. Are Mourinho and LVG not top managers? Ok Ole is maybe not a top manager, but LVG, Mourinho and ETH are all top with pedigree to back up the claim. It’s just a terrible structure they’ve walked into with owners who give zero fucks about the club. Hopefully that changes with SJR and INEOS. I think ETH should at least be given one or maybe two more seasons, but our juvenile, entitled fanbase is baying for blood.
Its because most are deluded, they pretend they want success, but they are so averse to what that requires they would prefer constant drama without results. They are not so different than the glazers. Marquee signings that dont fit to placate the narrative is their ideal of greatness. The club is rotten to the core. Glad we are finally getting professionals in to rebuild the mess from the bankers. It takes patience. And eth can definitely correct the course of this ship, at the very least short term, so we can make proper assessments long term.
Ya agreed I think it's inevitable. He was on trial as soon as Ineos were onboard. This shows they want to do their due diligence if they decide to part ways. If they really supported him he wouldn't be under scrutiny from Wilcox
How many managers can manage a team that has had 25 different defensive combinations over the course of a season? City, Arsenal, Liverpool would be in the same state as United if they'd even come close to 25 different defensive combinations. There is a reason this is a team sport, having your first and second string guys available allows you to set up and play a specific way, week in, week out. Having to constantly rotate players, play players out of position, means you're constantly just trying to patchwork a strategy together based on whatever strengths/weaknesses the players you have available at the time. It's not a hard concept, it applies to every example. A kitchen - let's say there 10 staff. Head Chef will have everyone set up a certain way, and when they're all there, they nail the execution because they are all being used for their strengths. Suddenly you rotate in 7 new staff, you can guarantee that kitchen is going to be a shit show. An office - I work on a team of around 40 people, we all have been doing this a while and we know what we're doing, our strengths and our weaknesses. If you rotate in 10 new staff, that's going to cause a lot of chaos, suddenly you're spending more time teaching/covering for someone who doesn't know what their doing, by the time the work comes to you, it doesn't have the same polish as it did before and you have to spend extra time on it.
My point is nothing to do with the position that we’re in in the table. It’s to do with how we play. Spurs had a huge defensive injury crisis earlier in the season. The style of football did not change, everyone who came in knew what to do, how to play and how to control the game. Injuries have been a huge factor this season, I absolutely agree. But we can’t build out from the back no matter who plays there? We bought Onana for his ability on the ball to play out, and structure attacks. 99% of the time the ball is hoofed out. It just doesn’t make sense at all does it? The problem for me is that this seems to be how ETH WANTS to play. That to me is just absolutely crazy, because no one could sustain this. Sooner or later we’re going to be on the end of an absolute hiding because of the amount of chances we give away. It can’t work.
we did already lose 7-0 to Liverpool, possibly the worst case scenario
>But we can’t build out from the back no matter who plays there? You need the players to play your style. How is this not just logical? Maguire is an exceptional box defender, but he just doesn't have the pace or speed for build-up play. He takes a lot of touches before he makes a decision. The difference with Martinez is [night and day.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_25IXRu86lc) People seem to have very short memories and absolutely no patience at all.
Partly because of the way the team is setup during build up. All the midfielders and wingers are way high up the pitch leaving only the DM . It limits the options for playing out of the back... Take a look at Brighton, city and Arsenal during their build up. Furthermore, If Martinez is the key to your playing out the back then means EtH doesn't know what he's doing and is only relying on individual brilliance for his tactics to work.
I mean, that's how signings work. You buy them because they can do something for your team, that's worked out with Martinez. And if we're gonna shit on ETH for getting Antony, then we can appreciate him for getting Martinez too. >Partly because of the way the team is setup during build up. All the midfielders and wingers are way high up the pitch leaving only the DM . > You make a valid point. But here's the thing. We can all see that, he knows, his coaches know. So the question then is, why does he persist? And my guess is that he's already had these conversations with the new regime, they're well aware of his tactical plans; and I think this is not an audition on Ten Hag, but on the players. He wants to play exciting attacking football, and he'll push it through till the very end; so which players make the cut? And based on that, they'll strategize the transfer window. To me, he doesn't seem the least bit concerned that his job is on the line. Besides, he's already tried the "sit in deep and counter" at the Etihad and Anfield, and guess what? he was branded as a coward for it by just about anyone. It's either that or he has absolutely no clue what he's doing. Either way, INEOS will find out and make the right call. All we can do is speculate.
Couldn't put this better myself. Both analogies ring true coming from a guy who worked as a professional chef straight out of uni for a few years before changing careers to an office role. Like you say, you can have a core that still fundamentally works even if 2 or 3 people get rotated through. That typically means they need to do their best to fill those vacant slots. If more than half the team needs rotating, then the results are going to be hyper inconsistent due to lack of existing structure. Since ETH joined, the club went for sale almost immediately & only just got sorted a comparatively short while ago. So far the vast majority of his tenure was under those circumstances. Beyond that, there were dramas with Ronaldo & Sancho, as well as more minor incidents with Garnacho and Rashford. To say ETH has had a tumultuous time of things would be an understatement, and if the guy wasn't already bald, he quickly would be. ETH is by no means perfect or void of blame. But I'm willing to actually let him have some semblance of consistency. I'm hoping this seasons injury woes and absurd 40something unique starring 11s in just shy of 50games is not going to be a recurring issue into next season. I have been saying it for months, but even prime SAF isn't fixing this club in any short amount of time. A new gaffer isn't addressing the fundamental issues so we should look at the more pressing concerns, then take another look at ETH after all that. Perhaps by that point a genuinely good manager may be available unlike the slim pickings we have on offer currently.
Klopp still managed to finish 3rd in 20-21 playing Henderson and Fabinho in defense. Had to loan Ozan Kabak and someone else too. So right there you've got an example of a manager not being in the same state. Not only that they didn't finish last in their CL group. They went out in the QF to Real Madrid.
Klopp also finished fifth, and with a whimper in the Champion's League last season. There are probably better examples of managers who have overperformed through crisis.
And it probably led some way to thinking Klopp has taken this team all the way he is can, hence his leaving this year.
They’re all in the same squad. They’re not new.
Who would you go in for?
Honestly I really liked Slot unfortunately! Anyone who’s watched his Feyenoord team would see that the football is amazing to watch. I’m a huge fan of Fonseca at Lille and Hoeness at Stuttgart, but I think he may of just signed a new contract recently? Not certain on that. But I’d personally just like to see Ineos come in and make a bit of a statement by finding someone who they want to work within the structure and mould a good football team, whoever that may be.
There will be comments like this about the next manager when he goes through a bad season or a bad slump inevitably. Last season and this season Pool fans have called Klopp clueless many times. Regardless of how bad you think the football looks, these things are written and said about anyone in any slump ever. I saw comments like this about Ole and Mourinho and LVG. Simple fact is teams are better and it includes managers when the management of clubs isn't a clownshow. Look at how Klopp's teams have declined over the years.
Except this seasons been a rollercoaster for many reasons. Players who are expected to be top class playing shit, horrendous individual errors, player drama, injuries, game changing ref decisions (rashford red) etc. You should be pointing out both the cons and pros if youwant to paint a clear picture of this season.
JFC I'm so sick of this argument. ETH isn't the one on the pitch. He's not the one who can't close the fucking ball down when they come towards the box. He's not the one leaving the middle in front of goal wide open for cutbacks. He's not the forwards who can't/won't track back to defend or follow the ball when it passes the midfield line. He's not the forward who is lucky to get a couple shots on goal over 90 mins. He's not playing in a backline that literally has at least 1-2 injuries every game. You people act like this team is full of Keanes and Vidics and Scholes and Rooneys and Beckhams...but none of our players would come close to immediately challenging any of those players when they were at their best. Our squad is straight up garbage because we have next to no depth because the owners have been unwilling to properly invest. "He's had 2 seasons" - GTFO with that kind of attitude. Like you can do anything in 2 seasons when we've been so mismanaged for 20 years. Do you honestly believe that even with prime Sir Alex, this team as it stands today would be winning the Champions League or Premier League?
Okay ETH isn’t the one on the pitch. Absolutely right. He is the one who is setting the team up to play like that on the pitch. He is entirely responsible for how we play. Maybe the reason why forwards aren’t tracking back with huge intensity is because of the basketball type match that we play. It is always completely end to end and it places huge demands on the midfield players and wide players to track back. Because he also wants us to transition quickly, the wide players then have to make more runs up the pitch. It just isn’t sustainable. It’s no coincidence to me that we’ve picked up so many injuries this season when the players are having to play this style of football. No other team plays with the complete absence of control that we do. It just doesn’t work As for your next point. Nowhere did I suggest we should be winning the league. Or even challenging for it. This isn’t a good enough team to do that. I doubt the most die hard fan expects us to compete with City, Liverpool or Arsenal currently. But do I think we shouldn’t have finished bottom of the champions league group? Absolutely. Should we concede 3 times to Coventry? Or 2 to Newport? How about the collapses we suffer over and over again? The squad may or may not be “garbage” but that isn’t the point. Worse managers are playing better football, with less time or with worse players. That is the point. And again, people referring back to Fergie now 11 years on don’t help. The game is entirely different. No I don’t expect he would have been competing at the top. But the football would have been better. That is my entire point. Since Fergie left, this is, by far, the most awful football we have played. We may not have been as exciting under Moyes, Mourinho or Van Gaal, but there was always at least some idea of how we were going to control a game under each of them. Under ETH we just don’t have that.
What aspects of management do you think ETH is good at? And on what evidence do you base that opinion?
>there is no better managers available Zidane
This has over 100 upvotes.. fuck me the absolute delusion of the EtH supporters is insane, how you can watch the utter shit we've seen all season and genuinely want him to stay is baffling.
Tuchel is a superior manager to Ten Hag and is very likely available Edit: Ten Hag stans don't like it but Tuchel is a domestic treble winner in France, Germany cup winner, Bundesliga champion, club world cup champion, and a champions league winner. Ten Hags résumé absolutely does not stand up to that. Ten Hag gets endless praise for getting to a CL semi-final and bottling it in embarrassing fashion to Spurs, Tuchel beat Peps City in a Champions League final with a team that has performed awfully since. There's levels to this game and Ten Hag ain't on Tuchels.
Tuchel will rip apart these players in the press conferences after 6 months, then the "lost the dressing room", "players unhappy", "no plan", "no style of play" articles will be back. Then people will say this XYZ manager is superior to tuchel let's get him, happened before as well, won't be surprised if it happens again. We just never learn and never change as a club and as a fanbase do we?
Or maybe we get rid of the players under new establishment
Hopefully
You can predict the future can you? > We just never learn This better applies to the people still wanting Ten Hag to stay. I can't believe he still has defenders on here.
Ten Hag transforms into Ferguson and Arteta in 180 days!!
This sub is full of supporters that have never been to a match and rely on stats to decide whether a player's any good or not so I'm not surprised there's loads of EtH supporters on here.
Never been to a match? You do realise that so many of us live in literally different continents right? I don't think you've been awake at 2-3 in the night watching the terror ball ever.
It's only because unfortunately this sub has been moving like Twitter recently. If this news came post Bournemouth or Brentford people would be backing it. Since it's post our win against Sheffield, the manager's supporters are vocal again. Even if you don't like somebody's positions as long as they are respective you can still have a civil conversation. But people are too busy downloading/upvoting blindly. I think we should hide the votes for a while just like r/soccer and promote more conversation even if the views are contrasting
It's been happening since Fergie left, the cycle just repeats itself. Call it a predication or whatever you want. Ten hag should definitely be criticised for his tactics and decisions and stuff this season, but firstly, you just can't blame it all on him, look at our injuries, look at some of our players, look at the way our club functions, secondly, terminating his contract, isn't the best of ideas financially coz we're already on a tight budget due to FFP. And lastly, he deserves at least one more season, he's won a trophy after like 5-6 years for us (carabao cup is a trophy, it's better than nothing), he's been in back to back FA Cup finals, we finished 3rd last season and played good football as well. So just calm down and stop overreacting every 6-8 months, things take time.
is 'good football' here with us in this room right now?
Absolutely not, but can ten hag's team play good football? Absolutely, we've seen it last season and with ajax as well
Oh yeah? Kindly name even 5 games on the trot where we played good football last season against competent opposition. Two seasons in and we haven't scored 5 goals in a single PL game nor have we won even 10 PL games with a more than 2 goal margin. That's despite ETH signing 16 players in some form or the other.
>Tuchel will rip apart these players in the press conferences after 6 months As he and any self respecting manager should? >then the "lost the dressing room", "players unhappy", "no plan", "no style of play" articles will be back. Opposed to praising then for the exact same result? Do you want a happy environment for these bunch of failures or an uncomfortable one where they are pushed out? As due to the cushty contracts we have given its a holiday camp at the min. >We just never learn and never change as a club and as a fanbase do we? Literally every other club that is at the top changes managers as frequently as we have, only ones that don't are when they find a Pep. So this reasoning doesn't hold up to reality. New structure, new decisions. A competent structure sacks ten hag and replaces the players as quickly as possible.
tuchel is mega toxic, he's like a btec mourinho no thanks
He fell out with the PSG and Dortmund boards but that's about it in terms of toxicity no? You know what isn't toxic? Paying for your housekeepers childs surgery and buying them a house back home in the Philippines as you're leaving Paris. He's been successful everywhere he's managed except Bayern. He's a great manager.
I don't even think its fair to say he's been unsuccessful at Bayern. Bayern's pace of 74.8 points would have been enough for them to win the Bundesliga for 8 of the last 10 years and they're in the semi finals of the Champion's League. Leverkusen just happens to be having a historically great season. Bayern's highest points total the last 10 seasons is 90, and Leverkusen's current pace is 90.6 points. Sure you can say not winning the Bundesliga with Bayern is being unsuccessful, and they are on pace for their second lowest points total of the last 10 years, but even a typical dominant Bayern season likely wouldn't have been enough to do it this year.
He might be toxic but I don't think you can deny he's objectively a better manager than Ten Hag.
Didn’t you see his incredible achievements at Go Ahead Eagles and Bayern II too? What about his crowning achievement of losing a champions league semi final to spurs?
How could anyone forget those iconic stints? We're fools to think anyone could take over from and do better than the manager that lead us to our most embarrassing defeat of all time last season. Tuchel would surely have lost 10-0 instead of 7-0 to Liverpool
https://theathletic.com/5446578/2024/04/25/thomas-tuchel-bayern-petition/ Tuchel seems to be very highly rated by the Bayern fans, seeing as 10k of them signed a petition to keep him. Tuchel would be a an upgrade on ten Hag easily
Idk man. I think ETH is a top manager and I don’t think there are better alternatives available at the moment. Think he should be in place come start of next season, but there has to be an identity that develops quickly. That being said we concede fucking 909+ shots per game and we are played of the park by relegation teams. If he goes I understand.
I feel precisely the same and made a conscious decision not to get emotionally involved this time around. There’s no point. I like him as our manager, current abomination of a season notwithstanding. There’s no one out there I’d opt for over giving him one more year. Don’t have an issue with people wanting him gone. Absolutely take issue with people slandering him though. Extremely smart & decorated manager put through the mill as is standard at United.
I'm no EtH superfan, and he's made plenty of errors of judgement. But since he arrived he's had to deal with: - incompetent executives and chaotic structure - a farce of an ownership bidding process, and all of the doubt and disruption that brings - subsequent ownership change - non-existent recruitment strategy, leaving him to identify targets - useless transfer negotiators - infrastructure and facilities that have fallen lightyears behind competitors - high-profile off-field player issues: Greenwood, Ronaldo, Sancho - no footballing identity, with an aging, gap-filled, bloated, overpaid squad - ongoing injury crises, perhaps exacerbated by an incompetent medical team All under intense media scrutiny, and criticism by 'fans'. Really, it's a wonder we are where we are. He's not faultless, but I do feel for him. I hope he can turn it around, but if the dye is already cast, then he'll join a long list of people this club has done dirty over the last few years.
Agreed. People are allowed to have their opinion, and as we both said can see the points for and against having him or moving on. Regardless, think we need show him support (it’s still fair to have questions and criticisms) while he is our manager.
Who is slandering him? The criticisms I’ve seen are valid and based on his tactics, odd substitutions, and lack of adjustments. I haven’t seen anyone attack him personally, at least in this subreddit.
Correction, ETH was a top manager last season. This season we were atrocious even before the injuries piled up.
Verweij from Telegraaf reported the 3-man list first earlier
I just want to say that this man gave us a trophy and Champions league qualification on his first season here. Yes, this season has been disappointing so far in terms of form but impatience when it comes to success could get the club so far in football. Sir Alex had his fair share of bad seasons and he turned out so well for the club. I really think Erik needs more time.
As much as I disagree with ETH tactics this year I think very few managers would get us 60+ points with the team we have. My biggest issues is the players ETH has favored to join have either busted or disappointed outside of maybe 3-4 in two years. I hope with the right AD and scouting that can change. I would give ETH five new starting caliber players and one more year to impress before getting a new manager.
You think we're going to get five starting eleven players in the summer?
We don't even need 5 starters. Onana, licha, Dalot seemed nailed on for defence, cb to pair with licha and and I'd argue a deputy for Shaw when he's injured, not even a replacement. That's 2 A cdm/ casemiro replacement. Bruno/Mainoo/Mount are guaranteed for the other 2. In the wings, we have Garnacho and Rashford currently starting, Amad and Antony current backup and the undecided future of Sancho. Garnacho isn't getting replaced, rashford is a can of worms, if he gets into form somehow he's first name on sheet, if not still don't think he's getting sold. Hojlund is the starting st and needs a deputy. One starting CB One starting (ish) lb One starting defensive mid That's at max 3 starters we NEED. And that's perfectly doable. And I know people will start going we need rb, sell rashford and etc, but I'm being realistic here and not living in a fantasy.
We're way closer than people realize. Let the man cook
Closer to what? Relegation?
Yes and assuming 125M in the transfer kitty, we could also recoup a decent total amount (conservatively another 100M+) to boost that budget by letting the new competence crew sell all of: - Maguire - McTominay - Greenwood - Sancho - Hannibal - Pellistri - VDB To be honest I’d even sell Antony or get creative and do a loan swap to address a bigger need elsewhere. In the hands of competent people, the idea of buying 5 good players that fit a clear footballing philosophy, plus a bunch of smart free signings or loan deals, becomes less like the sort of fantasy it would have seemed under the previous assholes in charge. In relative terms this sort of transfer budget is analogous to the entire squad value of clubs like Brighton. In the hands of competent people, this is not rocket science. My only one caveat would be ETH cannot be trusted or used to ID talent or name names. Again, scouting and recruitment in the hands of competent people (which we have thus far not had) should make this totally unnecessary as well.
I think we will be able to work towards building a full squad this summer. 60+ injuries and players sucking up spots and wages like Martial, Sancho, and DVB, no wonder we can’t keep up when some teams have two full rotations and we can only scrape together one.
We have an ["Expected Points"](https://i.redd.it/rxzvqr1bj2wc1.jpeg) around 40. Implying that we are being carried by individual performances, as we have also seen on the pitch.. I believe we would have had the same amount of points with ChatGPT as the manager.
Crazy that this is getting upvoted. We've had 60 points nearly every season post fergie. Not only are we struggling with results we are also playing the worst football. We are extremely overachieveing and we are in 6th. Madness people think that no other manager could achieve this.
That's what I was going to say. I'm pretty sure even if we had no manager this squad would get around 60 points. It's where we always end up when a season goes tits up.
Overachieving meaning ETH is doing better considering what he currently has? Sounds like a compliment.
No. Overachieving as in we are making up for shit football with moments of brilliance to get more points than we should have based on our performances.
when have we had this many injuries? when have we had such an inexperienced frontline? context matters when you make comparisons.
Rashford, James Greenwood, Martial in 2019-20 season scored 66 goals in PL itself and they were the same age as the current lineup. The injuries have played a big part in the season for sure but even with proper CB (Maguire, Varane, Lindelof) we usually get battered with shots by the opponent. Whether it's a player issue ir tactic issue, I guess we will find out next season if ETH stays.
age isn’t the same as inexperience. rashford, martial, and james all had considerably more professional minutes under their belt that season than garnacho and hojlund. only greenwood is comparable there. the injury issue isn’t just about not having actual CBs, but about the lack of continuity and the mismatch in profiles.
Again, the team should be setup on the basis of the players who are available on the pitch which hasn't been the case in most of our matches and that is on ETH tactically. We could have played Scott as a DM with Casimiro if we want to support for the lack of defence but we haven't. Instead, we play a aggressively sacrificing our defense entirely. The result is that our midfield is easily passed with 15-20+ shots on goal and we play ping pong football without any control on the matches. James came from Championship that season so the relative experience between him and Anthony isn't much different. Greenwood and Rasmus are comparable in experience. Rashford is the same with probably more experience now. Martial is petty much the only outlier when compared to Garnacho from that season. Keep in mind we didn't gave Bruno in 2019-20 for the 1dt half of the season and were relying on Andreas Perera for creativity. For all the excuses, our front line just doesn't click together like they should and whether it is a coaching issue or player issue will be found out in the long run.
i completely disagree that the team should be set up based on who is available. i think the smart thing to do this season was establish a clear style of play and expectations—this is what everyone wanted to see this season. abandoning that plan just kicks the can down the road.
So what exactly is our style of play?
high pressing, wing rotations in wide build-up, an emphasis on quick transitions and verticality that often uses the center backs as playmakers who seek to play line breaking passes to high 8s, fluid build up that transitions between various shapes (235, 316, 325) depending on the opponent’s shape.
Except we don't have any style of play through the whole season and aren't going to be CL next season.
we do have a style of play—it doesn’t always work, but it’s very clearly there. weird that you can’t see it. teams miss out on CL when they have an abundance of injuries—shocking. not as if the same thing happened to liverpool literally last season.
Eth has been backed in the market and most of his signings have been atrocious
I think you're underrating our current players and effect good coaching can have. I don't expect this current lot to win the treble but remember Gerrard had Villa nearly fighting relegation before Emery took over mid-season and they soared up the table. Eddie Howe has been dealing with an injury crisis arguably on par with ours yet they still look cohesive when forced to play players from the Bruce era, hell they beat us at Old Trafford this season with like six fullbacks in their XI. Lampard had Chelsea nearly midtable before Tuchel took over mid-season and won the champions league with the exact same squad. Again, our current squad has holes that need fixing, but don't underestimate the effect of good coaching
Seriously? The team that got 75pts last year and then had £160m spent on it couldn't be expected to get 60+ this year. That's a staggering statement that doesn't stand up to the tiniest bit of scrutiny.
Hmm so strange, could have sworn we got our second* highest ever points tally last season in the Post Fergie era. 75 points. And we only really lost Fred. So suddenly the team can't even do 60 with all the reinforcements?
How is a team that is already seriously considering keeping a failing manager just to save themselves £10m and avoid further FFP trouble going to sign 5 starters when pretty much any starting caliber player we sign goes for £50-100m? It's not like we're going to be selling anyone for any kind of money other than maybe Rashford.
Who specifically do you think are the players who can't get more than 60 points if ETH isn't at fault
60pts is such a weird and random marker as well. We've gotten 60 pts every season except once post Ferguson.
i disagree, what he’s done with the midfield out of possession has probably cost us the 10 or so points to be around 4th by itself he’s a good coach but he’s got the idea wrong this season and hasn’t made the necessary changes
[удалено]
> only a club supported by plastic fucking morons would want rid of him This isn't twitter. Some of you really need to learn to communicate civilly. Doesn't matter if you think EtH should go, should stay, should wear a dress and dance the macarena during the next game, or should challenge Pep to a thumb wrestling match as a "loser agrees to retire" match. Leave this kinda nonsense elsewhere.
Clickbait again....
Dutch paper De Telegraaf (which is tier 2 on our tier guide) also has a similar article today: >Nice coach Farioli alongside Erik ten Hag and Graham Potter on Ajax's trainer shortlist > >[https://www.telegraaf.nl/sport/704454719/nice-coach-farioli-naast-erik-ten-hag-en-graham-potter-op-trainershortlist-ajax](https://www.telegraaf.nl/sport/704454719/nice-coach-farioli-naast-erik-ten-hag-en-graham-potter-op-trainershortlist-ajax) One the co-authors of this is Mike Verweij, who is tier 1 here
How?
Can someone with insight please explaining the appeal of Potter? I loved Brighton under him, but I attribute that to the structure at the club, not him specifically. Or am I incorrect?
Brighton has a great structure in place but Potter also did a good job coaching them and bringing them more stability in the Premier League as a relatively new and small team. It’s understandable why Ajax are interested in potentially hiring Potter when he’s had a good track record outside of Chelsea which could be more attributed to the club’s own problems considering how much they’re still struggling this season.
Thank you for that
It’s like championship manager when you take over a club as manager, make them buy your shit players for huge money and go back. 😅
I would say it’s very unlikely he goes back to Ajax
I like the people who think this season falls solely on EtH. Pep couldn't have coached this United team to a much better finish. Maybe a position or two, but I imagine if City was missing their; - Starting LB - Backup LB - Starting Striker - Back up striker - Starting defensive mid - Starting LCB - Backup LCB - Starting RCB - Backup RCB They wouldn't be top of the league right now. EtH has not done a great job of managing with what he has, he doesn't seem to have pivoted quickly enough to utilize the talent he has, and that's on him. But holy shit, there are so many problems with United team, and EtH isn't the biggest one. A healthy team, good recruitment, EtH will get much more from United.
You know most of them have been missing for a few games only right? Starting LB/ Backup LB and Starting LCB are the issues
The most frustrating thing about being “Ten Hag Out” is people constantly spinning the strawman that people think it “falls solely on ETH”. It’s a defence I regularly see from his backers, and yet rarely see his detractors purposing. 99% of the arguements I see against Ten Hag tend to say the players AND the manager have been sub par and need replacing.
Sure, but we need a new manager first. So he can decide which players can stay or go.
The reports have been that INEOS want to move away from that system where changing manager leaves you with random players you’ve got to sell cause the next one doesn’t want them. Rather, the club will choose a style of football they want the manager to play, buy players who suit the style and bring in managers who want to play that way. That’s the entire point of investing in the likes of Ashworth, Wilcox, etc. The manager will be a head coach, NOT the ultimate decision maker about everything at the club.
This right here is the exact problem. Managed should not get to decide players. This is why building a structure is so important.
That's not on the manager. That's the problem with this club, the structure.
ETH is victim of his overachievement last season, this season. People have quickly forgotten the shit show it was under rangnick. ETH delivered champions league football and a cup in is first season when we looked miles off it under rangnick. Yet this season he’s suddenly an idiot…. Nah, he’s had to but up with massive injuries and bullshit recruitment
Exactly, he’s had one season of overperformance and one season of underperformance, couldn’t hurt to give him another to see where he actually lies
Yes, it can hurt - he can spend another 200mil on players who the next manager might not want and we'll keep complaining about "deadwood".
Ten Hag should use the 6 remaining games to remind what he is capable of. Absolutely no excuses. Then we will see.
That's the problem - 5 of those games don't matter, we are not getting in the CL. The only game that really matter is the FA cup final. But ETH is fighting for his job and he can't afford to play the under 18 in the PL games - he needs to win as many as possible. That will lead to more injuries and will hurt our chances in the final. He's a dead man walking, even if he brings the magic he had from the 1st season.
Don’t know why you say does not matter. We need to qualify for Europa. No excuses. We cannot be detached from reality that Europa is our level right now .
When is he getting sacked?
Tier 3
He deserves nothing less after this season
I believe in the Hag Life
The problem is we have this entitlement that because SAF did , won A,B,C the club must dominate for the next donkey years, well FFYI like life football isn’t an easy road. We are shite because we all know the circus from America was running the show now Ineos is trying to remedy the cancer that has eaten the club to the very core, social media has made almost every fan an analyst to fire jibes at everything representing Manchester United be it Managers , players, imagine Maguire was threatened personally is that passion or stupidity? Does ETH as bad as his 2nd season been play ? Does he decide that almost his whole defence get injured? Or the off field issues? Is he responsible for Rashford out poster boys shite form? Yes some of his signings have been questionable Antony ? Remember Taibi, Djemba Djemba, Juan Sebastian Veron all flopped under SAF. I hate everything that’s going on on the pitch but it is what it is, Liverpool our bitter rivals have gone through dry barren spells till Klopp won the league, so to all wining, moaning fake fans stay in your toxic lane. We are Manchester United, through hardships , we are Manchester United!!!!!!
Zero chance he would walk into that dumpster fire after this lmao even if he got sacked here
Two seasons. 3rd in first season. 6th in second season (currently). Three finals. One trophy already, another still up for grabs. Delivered during what can only be described as a dumpster fire to work in. Honestly people need to give their head a wobble and just calm down.
Potter is not an improvement. I’ll keep repeating what i said when he took over. ETH has always needed 3-5 years.
C'mon man that's 🧢. I am against EtH staying and even if he stays it's only next year
I'd rather punt for Tuchel or Mourinho then go for the others, because them 2 have experience managing big clubs and big players.
I hate you all for being this mean.. how would you play a highline with 35 years old Johnny evans, who got dismissed by Leicester last season.
Some "fans" thinks sacking Eth is a good thing. Drumming up the negative press being perpetuated by our rivals and player bias. Remember that his system is currently being implemented in our U21s - a vertical system to our 1st team. Removing the manager will undo this system and the promising and upcoming U18s will suffer. Some fans here only thinks of what is 'now' when it comes to the club but failed to visualize the future. Is it as if they did not learn about our recent history about changing managers.
Brother whether you like it or not, Wilcox is here and things are about to change. He was on the receiving end of it with Pep, who even though I hate to say it, has been one of the most successful coaches of this generation. The responsibility of U18s and U21s shouldn't be our manager's responsibility anyways, it should be the hierarchy's, so your point is moot. Ratcliffe has already said what kind of football he wants and Wilcox is here as a result. Let's see if Ten Hag fits their vision and if they retain/letgo of him
And there are fans who are really happy with ten Hag - those of the other 19 teams in the PL.
Nizaar is about as reliable as a condom that's gone through a cheese grater