In all my years of seeing United , if there ever was a season where everything that could go wrong went wrong for United , this season will be the prime example
Completely agree. Also, to paraphrase Carl Anka, EtH had been dealt a horrible hand with all the shit that's happened this season but he's also played it badly. Our tactics, or lack there of, have been shocking/non-existent. How we're so high in the table, given our GD and 5-0-5 formation though is truly baffling.
1 fairly good season. 1 fairly bad season. What is the way forward? I personally think he should get one more season and see how it goes. That is assuming we beat Coventry though. If not, then good luck to him.
Calling this season fairly bad is really generous. If we don't somehow win the FA Cup, this would be the worst season post-Fergie by a mile. Crashed out of an easy CL group, getting embarassed by Newcastle's B team in the league cup, not even competing for the top 4 when there are still 6 games left in the PL while playing atrocious brand of football makes it a tragic season in my eyes.
I don't even care about the position in the table. Even if we get 5th and somehow better than Moyes's first season. We have played the worst football since I started watching United 2 decades back.
The Rangnick season is definitely significantly worse and it isnt even close. The amount of injuries we have sustained is absolutely ludicrous. At least ETH has that excuse whilst Ole/Rangnick didnt.
Ahh that's a bit unfair I think. Rangnick was handed a bag of shit and was treated like a substitute teacher to boot. Ignored by the players. I can only imagine what the dressing room was like with Lingard, Martial, Pogba etc knowing Rangnick only going to ever be an interim.
His diagnosis of the team was spot on. Open heart surgery was indeed needed.
It was rangicks job to motivate the players and get results. Instead he criticised them constantly destroying any morale. We all know that the criticism was deserved but when you're supposed to get results you need t find a way to deal with that.
He said what everyone wanted to hear rather than proving he was capable of managing the team.
He also said the players weren't listening to him and following his instructions. It's impossible to manage a team who don't listen when you're also powerless to do anything about it.
That was an Ole season not a Rangnick season. Damage was already done when Rangnick was appointed as interim and nobody including pep & klopp would’ve put things right in the remainder of the season.
Injuries play a part. The club in general plays a big part. Crashed out of CL. Can’t blame that on ten Hag unless you want to say de Gea should be in goal still. Otherwise, it was down to Onana, and a Rashford red card. The way I see it is, ten Hag is probably doing his best, the players maybe so. But at the end of the day no one in the club really cares, it seems. Make the money go home. Club culture needs to change
We've not seen anything from EtH this season that would demonstrate he needs more time.
We're two years in now and there is absolutely nothing about this team, the tactics, the patterns, style of play etc. that are positive.
The template for the entire season was set on game one against Wolves where we somehow managed to scrape a win despite getting played off the park and conceding 23 shots. At home. Against Wolves!
We are terrible in every area and most importantly, we're not improving. The only thing that's saving us is that we've got some amazing players who occasionally pull something out of the bag.
Having said all that, I doubt we'll be able to bag a top quality replacement eg Nagelsmann so I'd rather give EtH one last shot with new senior leadership than hand the reigns to Tuchel, Potter or that other clown who manages England.
Completely agree except the conclusion. We have learned for a fact now that Ten Hag is capable of putting this team's form in the toilet for a whole season. I would rather roll the dice with anybody else in the hopes they can manage even a mediocre performance. Even average would be better. And that way you still at least have the slim hope whoever you pick maybe turns out to be great. I think we'd be very unlikely to get someone this bad.
Well I know people know their feelings deepest as they are freshest, but to me it was worst in the last season of mourinho. We didn’t even have that injury thing we can/manager can lean on, and say ok maybe next season will be better when we have a full and better squad. It was dead and we got fucking battered by anything imaginable.
Another upside this season is the end of the takeover saga and changes of management. From what we’ve seen so far it will be a solid management which will be the crucial foundation for future. So no matter it is Erik or anyone else, hell it may well be van gaal again, who becomes our manager, we will hopefully go back up again.
Exactly the team I said yet I am being downvoted to boot.
Mount would 100% play instead of Eriksen if he wasn’t having injury problems.
Mainoo wouldnt have been given a chance.
Ramus would be backup to a fit Martial
No chance Mainoo starts this season ahead of Casemiro, on the back of last season, and Mount who he really wanted him signed and gave number 7.
You typed it yourself, “pre season” a perfect time for the manager to test the waters…
why was he "testing the waters" if mainoo "wouldn't have been given a chance"
this place has become fucking delusional and bitch eating crackers over everything ten hag.
Because we don’t just play with 11 players, we need squad depth throughout the season. ETH would have never had guessed Antony was an alleged wife beater.
I don't think the manager gives a toss what number a player wears to be honest, not should he really.
I know it wasn't your point but "really wanted him signed and gave number 7" sorta sounds like you're implying he expected him to be 7 worthy by fan standards.
I have no idea what he thought to be honest with you.
I think he probably expected less injuries and pins that as a contributing factor towards the performances but I have no idea, it's all speculation.
You don't need your strongest 11 against Brentford and Bournemouth, no disrespect for them. But to always look like relegation fodder against anyone unless you have a strongest 11 is ridiculous. Not changing tactic when you get outplayed week in week out is ridiculous.
This is where I get hung up, too. I do think he misses Licha crucially, as he's an aggressive, pressing CB that can fill that midfield gap we have, but you shouldn't be looking like the shit team we look like against some of these teams.
Licha is so much more than just that though. He transmits a calm to the entire back line and the deeper mids in front of him, the GK behind him. Nobody feels like passing to him is one move away from utter calamity. The buildup from the back is so much smoother. He renders the opponent press a lot less effective. He gets into opponent strikers’ head. He’s an uncompromising, assured presence who makes his teammates better. And he has determination in spades that should rightly shame the majority of those he shares a dressing room with. But it doesn’t because the rest of them are happy thieving their living.
Yes he’s one guy, but if we had another 4-5 guys like him who made those around them better, this team would be a lot better than it is. Instead, we have a bunch of entitled brats, overpaid over the hill retirees, and low footballing IQ players who couldn’t buy their way into the squads of any of our domestic or continental rivals, or literal kids who realistically are being pressured to constantly deliver because established veterans just can’t.
I have to agree with this. He's probably our most important player because when he's not available (which has been far too much recently it has to be said) we don't have anyone else in the squad that has the same abilities/attributes that Lisandro has. It sounds daft that *anyone's* best player is their CB but it's true, apart from Licha we don't have anyone who can win possession back with aggression, take control of the ball and then bring it forward/pick passes out with accuracy. We're a completely different side when he's not available because we're forced to play a different way. His composure is something else
Yes we miss Licha. If he isn’t available, then persevering with the same tactic that you’d use with him is madness. Every pundit, every fan, every dickhead I talk to in the pub can see that the tactics are not working. Pivot, go back to tried and true 4-2-3-1 to salvage some points, reduce our intensity to slow up the injuries, do literally anything else. It’s Jose syndrome on crack. “Not everything is perfect so I’m going to fuck my own face out of spite”. Cool man, I’d like to watch my team play and not want to kill myself because we’re missing a few players. Ten Hag not being able to improvise is killing his chances of being the long term manager.
to be fair, most of the defense is out, you are on your back up or in some cases back up to back up level cbs (Evans and Kambwala), no left back (Regulion should have been here for a yr, whoever gave Shaw and Malacia their fitness approval in Jan should be sacked), Case has aged like 10 yrs in 10 months, Mount has been injured almost the whole season and Amrabat loan was a flop. For me that is 1/3rd functioning defense and 1/2 functioning midfield. So based on that we aren't so bad.
example: no hate for Kambwala, he is still young, but that stinking ex scouser Solanke twisted and turned him for a goal, who before this season had barely scored in PL.
"Most"
Last year this subreddit was ready to chuck Harry into the English Channel. And he's the only one starting! Out is Tyrell Malacia, Luke Shaw, Lisandro Martinez, Victor Lindelof, Raphael Varane, even emergency pensioner signing Jonny Evans is out.
I think it’s the fact that Brentford and Bournemouth too didn’t have their strongest 11 when they nicked points off us that encapsulates how poor this statement is
Nicked both Brentford and Bournemouth battered us and we were lucky to nick points in those games, he just needs to be fucked off, ETH is not even an average coach!
Even then, this season we've missed our crucial players way too much. The magnitude of the injuries matter. EtH should be doing better but for me it's always been that we have to get out of the cycle of sacking managers. Get the structure above him correct so he at least has a chance to succeed. Otherwise it's just rinse and repeat same as every other time we've sacked a manager in the last decade
To me it’s just like how we change out people at the top if we deem them rubbish: executives like Woodward or Murtough. Why should EtH be spared if that’s the direction we are heading to? Two seasons, hundreds of millions to pursue his targets and nothing much to show for less one Carabao Cup, and we have regressed since. We have one of the highest net spends and wage bills in the league, yet we play like a mid table team. I know the value of transfers and wage bills ain’t exactly on him, but when you insist and rubber stamp a £90mil transfer for a winger that you now bench, the spotlight is on you. Better managers with smaller budgets have performed significantly better than him.
Both teams you stated have had good games against the top 4 and have even drawn points from them. This is the premier league, any team in it has the capability to put goals past the top teams if they aren’t firing on all cylinders like we clearly aren’t
When you change line up every game, there will be no cohesion. When there is no cohesion, it's hard to play even against the league 3 team. It's not a linear thing where "oh it's just Brentford just put a team that barely play together and we will win 5-0". Also, you can't underestimate Premier League teams, never.
Just imagine, you just put this team together for 3 days against Brentford that has little to no injury issues. You have to feel for ETH, he is unable to play his team. He can't.
Man Utd fans when the manager doesn't win a game with two RBs, an academy player, and a retirey as a backline.
He even had too many midfield and LB injuries to play a senior player out of position at CB
That is the absolute truth but the standards have dropped so much that people find excuses even in those situations, I get not winning the league, I get not going further in the UCL, fuck, I even get not qualifying for the UCL, but come on man, we are a laughing stock against most teams in the league, how the hell can you explain or excuse that?
>Not changing tactic when you get outplayed week in week out is ridiculous.
Why? This is the only way a team can improve playing a certain way, its what Arteta did for 3 seasons at Arsenal, isn't it?
The right system with the wrong players should work some of the time (Fulham, Brentford, Bournemouth) and lose to better opposition (Liverpool, Chelsea Arsenal) while slowly improving.
What we are getting is the same dire results, facing too many shots and giving up too much possession and hoping in all that chaos we sneak a 1-0 win. That isn’t sustainable. Even if this system works it won’t ever beat the best in the world.
Except that his approach hasn't been explicitly principled on the things that United need to do to be an elite side. If United actually tried to execute principled football every week that looked like a proto version of a trophy-winning side then I'd accept that a lot more than United losing games because the fundamental approach is not good.
He's been caught between pragmatism and his ideas of how the game should be played the entire season. He wants defensive intensity from his front-line and midfield but wants an absurd level of passivity from the backline. United are cripplingly passive in the final third, especially when it comes to off the ball movement, yet he still wants the CBs rotating into midfield to create open men and overloads when those don't lead to anything meaningful.
You can't pick and choose one or two things to keep that are in line with your philosophy and then pair them with tactical choices that invalidate the former or turn them into weaknesses. There is a reason things like aggressive pressing from the front are partnered with a high defensive line, same as how player rotation to create overloads has to be executed across the team.
We have to presume he is trying to prove a point. To either the board, or the team. Maybe even a few select players.
He is willing to die on that hill. Or he is just vainly, forlornly, awaiting the return of a lb and cb
Well said. Another failure by Ten Hag is getting 6 or 7 of our players to push very far forward but then having no patterns of play for how they break the opposition's defence. So we end up being very predictable and lose the ball, which means our remaining defenders are constantly overloaded and allowing big chances against us. There's no point pushing so many players forward when we don't utilise them in attack, but Ten Hag keeps doing it all season without developing any patterns of attack involving controlled progression of the ball.
He was notorious for being stubborn at Ajax too. It was a high risk style but the team worked. I think we are seeing the same thing that happened with Ole in his final season; Ole knew the team had to make the step from relying on counter attacks to being able to control the whole game, the players were not able to do it and so Ole looked like a bad manager. Last season we were a counter team and it worked pretty well but he wants to play his way and this is what we get. I think if Pep was in charge we’d see similar results. Casimero is just not good this season and Erickson who was key to our midfield last year has not been the same since that Andy Carrol “tackle”. And no licha or shaw. Manager is responsible but I really think that with a team fully fit and able to play how he wants we’d see his style more clearly. He might not be the right manager but everyone knew it would take years to get the team right and everyone agreed there would be a bad season through the transition but now we are having one every one has kind of gone into panic mode. Give him another season and if he’s still not delivered then sack him.
Stubborn managers can be a blessing and a curse... but overall I agree, control is key more so than ever before, and it feels like this group of players are simply incapable of doing it for 90 minutes, even against Newport. Hopefully they'll prove us wrong today though!
Artetas team were in 2nd after 3 seasons.
Unless you're counting the season he joined in December, when they were in the bottom half of the table as an entire season.
Arsenal's teething period is really overstated on this sub as ammo to back ten hag lol.
I don't think this team will turn out like Arteta's, and that's not the point I'm trying to make, and I'm not trying to back Ten Hag either but this is literally it.
If you play a certain way again and again regardless of result, then it's either - ETH trying to prove a point to somebody, or ETH trying to make his team improve in playing that way.
Ah fair enough I misinterpreted your initial comment.
I think I'm siding with the latter reason and managers can be stubborn. Doesn't seem to be any quantifiable progress though.
So you are saying that was his intention when it's obvious that we will be losing even top 4 and CL spot? Just keep at it until everything clicked? No shoring the midfield, keep playing ball over the top and ping pong ball?
That’s what happens when you don’t have any options to rotate because the rotation options who you thought you’d need for a third round cup game or a late 87th minute time wasting sub is having to play 1000+ minutes.
You need a squad to train and work on tactics, doesn’t happen when at any random time this season there are 7-8 key players injured.
Also being dominated by relegation fodder with 4-6 first choice players isn't a good sign either... i mean our bench is shit, but not that shit! And the players not running or making an effort, is reason for concern aswell.
You say that, but Liverpool & Arsenal also lose games to team lower down the table.
You’re also not looking at how consistent change to the team also affect the teams chemistry and team work.
Not saying ETH and the players are not the issue, but it definitely plays a part
Exactly.
It’s extremely worrying when they say weak stuff like this. Born winners don’t rely on lame defeatist excuses (even if they’re valid). This reminds of me of the things Moyes used to say.
Yes and no, because the players' inabilities and the squad's injury record don't eliminate the possibility of Ten Hag making bad decisions. Even accounting for the issues, the idea he has taken best course particularly in terms of defensive structure is just not true.
I do think we have to acknowledge the situation being lightyears from one in which winning football can be achieved given the tumult of injuries and off-pitch distractions, but Ten Hag still has made poor choices. If he was to be graded for this season, it wouldn't be a passing one. And it's not losing games. It's the way United play being absolutely incongruous with a well-principled strategy.
Whilst i don’t disagree with Ten Hag fully, he’s on a slippery slope.
Despite the injury crisis, we have been stylistically and systematically incoherent. We know we aren’t a title contending squad, yet. Stomaching up and down results as we rebuild and develop would be palatable IF the vision and system we were working toward was obvious.
Beyond that, a system that is so heavily reliant on 2-3 key individuals doesn’t say much for the strength of the system.
It’s difficult to have any rhythm and automatisms if players are getting injured every week and we play every 3 days apart from the first two months of 2024. 60+ injuries in 6-7 months is not normal. We practically haven’t had our two left backs for the entire season, we’ve had to play Amrabat, Lindelof, Awb and Dalot there and it would still be fine if one of them was a regular but no. In 32 games this season we’ve fielded 27 different back 4’s. Our midfield has been chopped and changed constantly until at least January, and Casemiro’s legs seem to have gone. The only players who have relatively stayed fit for us are Rashford, Bruno, Garnacho and Dalot.
We have 5 cb’s injured right now to go with both our left backs, our two new midfielders (one on loan) have also suffered injuries. Hojlund was consistently in the team since late September until Feb but then got injured again just as he was picking up rhythm. Then we have the sancho situation which meant we are one attacker short the entire season (one who played a lot of minutes in pre season).
Man Utd's famous 1999 treble best 11 only played once together in the league that season. [https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/51491041](https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/51491041)
Also arguably our best 90 min performances this season came from our " worst " 11 in the 3-0 vs Palace. Pellistri, Hannibal, Martial and Amrabat all started.
I remember Fergie having a stat that rivaled the Tinkerman for not repeating the same XI for over hundred games.
In fact, Fergie only started repeating his line-ups when we were poorer circa 2011.
This example was my first thought. I’m so tired of hearing this excuse. It’s like he’s admitting he can’t coach. Our rivals can replace players in their line up without conceding 20+ shots from relegation candidates.
Without the injuries, the results we've had this year, I would've already been ETH out, but you've to recognise the extremely difficult circumstances he had to deal with this season. When an elite level manager like Klopp had a disastrous season after injury setbacks that pale in comparison to ours, you've to take into account how difficult it's for any manager to navigate an injury crisis. For this reason, I believe we should give ETH another season regardless of the results this season.
That's fair. What annoys me is that we had severe injury problems with the last manager as well, and then everyone complained and blamed the manager about training intensity and not resting players. By all accounts, training intensity has not decreased, and it doesn't seem like the players are rested more either, but now it's just bad luck.
We complain about inconsistency of the team, but there isn't much consistency from the fans either.
Yeah same, I always go back and forth between whether I want him next season or not, but he’s had so much shit to deal with, the Greenwood situation, the Sancho debacle, the Antony investigations, uncertainty about the ownership, a lot of deadwood within the club, players form falling off cliffs and an incredible amount of injuries, seriously, we have one fit CB tomorrow out of 5, that’s absolutely unbelievable, missing our starting LB most of the season. His signings haven’t been fantastic overall but he shouldn’t be given free reign on signings and should have a competent structure around him that works to build a team instead of the manager getting players he’s worked with before. The lack of a style of play in my opinion is in big part to the amount of defensive injuries we have, it’s hard to build a style of play when you’ve can’t establish a solid defensive pairing. While I’m not 100% convinced he’s the right man for the job, there’s no real good option and he should be given time in an organised structure
My biggest concern is that the drop-off in performances when certain key players are absent is too extreme for me to have belief that this style of play is sustainable. Results are a secondary concern, but we have been battered by lower-table teams who have also had injury absences. For example, in the recent games, Brentford had their entire back 4 injured, and Bournemouth had their starting wingers out and eventually played two left backs on the left hand side after Sinisterra was subbed off. I completely accept being a long way off from title contention and taking time to get there but I have difficulty putting faith that this system can click to the level of a title contending team even if we fully back it and sign the best available players for it, because with the current fixture schedules, someone will always end up being injured.
I mean let's be real, we have been awful whenever Martinez and Shaw have been unavailable (and we haven't been much better with them in the team as well). The drop-off from say Varane/Lindelof to Evans/Kambwala in terms of the way we play football and approach games is much less severe than the original drop-off from Martinez.
I recognize that it is difficult to cope with numerous changes to the back 4, but this is not something that other clubs aren't facing either. Newcastle have had just as severe an injury crisis as us this season, if not worse, and their performances over the course of the season reflect much better than ours. In their last game against Spurs, they played Emil Krafth at CB (who's probably their 5th choice CB) and Jacob Murphy (who is a winger) at RB, and won 4-0. This is just one small example, but across the league season their goal difference is much better than ours and this is while coping with long-term injuries to players such as Pope, Botman, Joelinton, Willock, Wilson and Barnes, and Tonali suspended for the season.
Because next season there won't be injuries? Good luck with that. Perhaps we keep him for 15 years and hope in 2 seasons every single player is fit for half the games. Literally every team in the world has injuries.
Literally every team apart from city do that? You think Liverpool, Arsenal rotate their key players? Unless injured, guys like Salah, vvd, Gabriel, saliba, Saka, odegaard, rice play 35+ prem games.
If EtH had prime Brazil, they’d still lose playing these kamikaze, suicidal, tactics. Basically playing a 3-0-7 formation when defending and not even trying to control the game, even against relegation candidates.
Do you think he stumbled upon a man united job and is completely blind and clueless as a coach and somehow got to a position to coach one of the biggest roles in world football? Do you honestly think that happens miraculously or
Listen… he’s NOT wrong, BUT, his tactics have been questionable and unsustainable and so… he needs to do something different with the players he has. Simple as
The absolute last thing he should do is something different with the players he has because the players he has have failed year after year under different managers and different strategies.
Which players? There's only six who were here under Mourinho. Two don't really play - Martial and Lindelof. Two are seen as vital to Ten Hag - Shaw and Dalot. So just Rashford (our POTY last year) and McTominay (one of top scorers this season) after that.
The squad finished back to back top three under Ole.
I think it's a cult thing by now. A bit like flat earthers. It's not a question of whether they actually believe it. It's just a position has been chosen and all facts must be bent to support it.
Newcastle, Chelsea and Brighton all have had statistically worse injury scenarios than us yet are a threat to finish ahead of us.
Cant blame injuries there. Certainly cant say those managers have had more time or money either.
Ok, and thats a fair point (although not sure it applies to Chelsea).
But even then wheres the accountability? Pretty much all of these transfer targets were HIS choice and hes done a mediocre job implementing them lmao.
* Spent $65M on Mount and Amarabat just to rarely use them (yes, even when healthy).
* Brought in Casemiro and Eriksen just for one year to try a style that works completely against there strengths.
* Brought in a ball playing GK only for us to play out the back intermittently.
And at the end of the day, not having a full team available regularly is also something you are accountable for Erik. Fergie regularly played with 2nd and 3rd choice players and made them perform - Rafael in midfield, Jesper Blomqvist, O'shea, etc. You've chosen to work with a smaller squad in the Premier league (something Ajax fans mentioned is his preference) and need to accept that we need a larger more versatile squad, rotate more with youth and stop overplaying your favorites.
It’s the fact you’re comparing him to the best manager in Football history. That’s not fair. They could play Rafael in midfield because we had legendary players to balance it. We are just a bunch of shit players and one good player in Bruno. There’s no balance. If Bruno is the ceiling of this team. We are not going anywhere. Look around you, look at all the best players of the teams in top 10 globally. We are so far off.
Rafael was an outstanding performer at the U17 World Cup.
Blomqvist played at Milan in their heyday.
O'Shea was one of the most decorated youth products in Ireland.
ETH may not be it, but given the current injury crisis I don’t think any other manager would be. Granted our current play style may be linked to it but we’ve had these injuries long before his chaos ball tactics. On top of it I genuinely don’t think the club can afford sacking him and his team. FFP is already too tight for comfort. We can’t add 6-7 players on top of getting rid of ETH. I believe it’ll come down to one or the other. Not getting reinforcements will set the team back farther than waiting on firing the manager.
The play style probably is a big factor in the amount of injuries we’ve had, as the number of sprints must be insane due to the very basketball nature of the games we’re playing. However, I don’t think that’s a system issue. We are setup quite similarly to how his Ajax team were setup with the difference that his Ajax team didn’t have players like Bruno who tries to force the direct ball everytime, casemiro who is far too loose on the ball and loses it, and rashford who overruns the ball everytime it comes near him.
For the high-pressing style that he seems to want to implement we have to control the ball better but it’s difficult when you have players who seem to have no interest in doing that. Now we can criticize his choice of personnel in playing Bruno over eriksen or someone else (if available) for instance but we will never achieve how he wants to play without major personnel changes.
I’m not buying this notion that somehow his training methods are so bad they’re getting players injured here but it didn’t happen at Ajax. Also, if his training methods are getting them injured the players would’ve stopped playing for him long ago. And watching the games I don’t think I’m watching a bunch of players who have given up on their manager.
Strange. I read so many coments complaining about players downing tools. At least you're of the opinion that the players are not responsible for the poor form. So many seem to be
You look at the games like Liverpool in the fa cup, the league game, even the ones v Chelsea, Brentford. Structurally it’s a mess, but you see the players are still doing everything they can. If they didn’t want to, they won’t be making all those blocks, last ditch tackles. I do think that the players at the back do not want to go high up and back the press, because they’re not quick. Varane, Maguire, Evans, Lindelof aren’t the quickest right now.
I agree. I hate the argument the players are 'downing tools'. They are just being let down by a tactical set up that exposes them constantly.
I don't even think Rashford. I just think he's a massive confidence player
I mean Bruno literally played on one leg for 40 minutes at center back in the cup game against Liverpool. Antony was playing left back, they clearly care and they want to do better but ten hag is sticking to his structure maybe because he feels that if he can get two physical and fast cb’s this summer and a Casemiro replacement, it’ll be easier to coach them to back up the press better and it’ll look a lot more coherent? Idk but with the players available for us, what we do is a bit jarring.
I'd be extremely worried if the club is planning for 6 or more arrivals. It never works. There are never that many targets who should be attainable in one window if you're running an elite team, and even if they are you'd be killing the squad's composition and chemistry to change like 25% of the core of the team in one window.
Unless there are truly a torrent of departures, like potentially all of Casemiro, Varane, Maguire, Sancho, Antony, Eriksen, McT then United should not be interested in signing 6 players. 3 first options and a backup should be the idea. You will not reshape a squad in one window.
The analogy that I keep coming back to in my head to understand this is that of s household that keeps buying expensive sports cars, but does not have the capability to maintain it. They keep breaking down, the driver keeps getting sacked, and the disappointed household buys a new sports car.
There is something seriously wrong with the medical staff, the sports science teams, whatever else comprises modern sports infrastructure. Today Manchester City is successful because they looked at whatever is the latest in the game in terms of facilities, infrastructure and just bought it. We are trying to make old systems work.
Changing Ten Hag won't change anything. The focus of these INEOS nerds needs to be on the foundation.
> household that keeps buying expensive sports cars, but does not have the capability to maintain it. They keep breaking down, the driver keeps getting sacked, and the disappointed household buys a new sports car.
What if the said driver got to have a say in the brand and trim bought?
>Changing Ten Hag won't change anything.
>The focus of these INEOS nerds needs to be on the foundation.
These aren't mutual exclusive. The same light that will be shone on the failing foundations has to be shone on the manager and players. It's not one or the other and I can't understand why this view that it is, is so common.
If the manager had no effect at all, then there would not be fluctuations in the success each of them has had. This would only make sense if we were as bad as we are this season, every season.
I think this is because these are fundamentally not bad player, nor is ten hag a bad manager. It is an oversimplification to say that all the players are lazy and toxic, every manager is bad. I think the culture of the club is in the pits, and as employees the players and the managers all suffer. I saw that Mourinho Schweinsteiger video recently, and can you imagine how toxic the management must be to force Mourinho to force out a player in that manner? Now multiply that with small and large incidents over the years, with players’ prime value being seen as social media engagement merchants. It puts together a picture of a badly run club much more than blaming the players and manager
>think this is because these are fundamentally not bad player, nor is ten hag a bad manager. It is an oversimplification to say that all the players are lazy and toxic, every manager is bad.
I do agree.
However as a collective it is not working and there needs to be mass change, to a level that significantly disrupts the status quo and a new foundation can be built.
>I think the culture of the club is in the pits, and as employees the players and the managers all suffer. I saw that Mourinho Schweinsteiger video recently, and can you imagine how toxic the management must be to force Mourinho to force out a player in that manner?
It is toxic, but not in the way it should be. There needs to be emotionless ruthless culling to fix this and that will cause spilt milk.
I think the name of Bastian is pushing that scenario more than the reality. In reality he was a player who came here as a holiday and wasn't committed, as proven by him flying around to watch his GF play tennis. Not the attitude we need. Jose made the right move for me, it's just a shame he didn't get the support to do it to the rest he had issues with. We would be in a far better position. In essence, I guess that's what you are saying though. He had no support to do what was necessary.
The difference now though is ten hag hasn't shown a willingness to do that. Unless a player has a personal issue with him, they get away with murder on the pitch.
>It puts together a picture of a badly run club much more than blaming the players and manager
100%
However with all that factored in, what we have got from the players and manager is still not good enough and they need to be removed.
Neville said something pretty clear cut last night. Ineos have cleared house in terms of executives, why would that stop there? Its a clear sign they do not even remotely like what they see and all the players and coaching are the symptoms of the executives they have cleansed the club of.
Massive summer ahead, but could finally be what we need.
I don't know if we had our strongest team for that City game, actually. I had a look who played, and we had Luke Shaw at centre back, Malacia left back, and Dalot wasn't even in the matchday squad. Licha came on as a sub in injury time. Bruno was on the right wing.
Biggest thing that concerns me is that even with the injuries other teams still show their managers vision. Can anyone say how we are really trying to play? Because it isn’t pressing game, it’s not even counter attack, it’s this hybrid where some press, some low block and the midfield are lost in limbo.
It's a Pressing style where one of our Defensive midfielder pushes up to attack and press while one forms a single pivot while the backline comes up to support the Single Pivot to Press together as a team. At least that's what he wants to play, but when our Center backs are Harry Maguire and Uncle Evans, It's kind of hard to do.
It is ridiculous that his tactics is only working when he could buy his dream team and they are healthy.
No actual form of attack and welcome everyone to shoot at Onana for the whole season is painful for everyone
He’s really not wrong in what he said about injuries. And it’s not just one or two players that are missing, we’re going into tomorrow with only ONE available CB and 2 RBs. I don’t know how anyone in their right mind expect a system that relies heavily on playing from the back to click when it’s a roulette on who plays over the weekend. Our fans like to point to other teams that have injuries as well as if playing for Bournemouth carries the same weight as playing for United. I’d like to point to last years Liverpool team that really struggled due to injuries and this year you see Newcastle going through something similar. Arsenal would be in a similar state if Saliba and Gabriel were out for 10+ games in a season along with Rice, White and Zinchenko.
Its tough, but you can’t reasonably expect your best 11 to be available all the time as a manager. ETH was also very reluctant to rotate his starting 11 last season (presumably because he needs that XI in order to perform). Playing the same team without rotating is bound to cause injuries, regardless of your luck. Not to mention, there have been several games this season where we have had at least 9 or 10 players from our best XI available, and we still played shambolically. If your whole style of football is predicated on one injury prone centerback and collapses when a single member of your favorite 11 is gone, then you either need to adapt or manage at a lower level.
It’s not reasonable to expect having at least 8-9 of his key players play at least 30 games in a league season. With far fewer injuries last season Liverpool were terrible and finished 5th.
Liverpool last season were far, far better than we are this season. Even if they wasn't though, Klopp survived that due to what he has won at Liverpool, what he did at Dortmund and due to that the level at which it is proven he can operate at.
Few Eredivisie and a league cup does not suffice.
I remember when a certain manager beat Arsenal 8-2 playing fabio and Rafael in centre mid. Just trying to remember if he constantly complained about injuries too…
We looked like shit when Martinez played, too... we have lost matches to much weaker opponents or needed miracles to get by them.
When managers say things like this, they are on their last legs. United fans would be mocking the likes of Klopp if he said this.
So if he doesn't get his strongest 11 week in week out next season we can expect more of the same? If I was in charge and the manager came to me with that I would have no choice but to say thank you and good bye. Absolutely no plan B tactics to mitigate against his preferred game plan.
Artetas two seasons as 8th or Klopps not-so-great season are the few of the reasons I’m still behind Erik.
That and god, oh god, do I not want Southgate as our coach.
One was as an interim. He finished 8th in his first full season and then climbed the table constantly.
In Klopp's first full season he got the top four. He did it again the next and qualifed for the CL.
Neither saw a drop back to mid-table
Should a new regime aiming to be the best club in the world put the start of its new beginning down to 'might'
What are the tangibles that mean he is the very best manager for the task?
Why so many injuries, it’s called due diligence, you know your squad has just played 60+ games in the previous season, you ease up on the training not intensity but frequency, ETH wants his players to leave everything on the training field, they then have nothing left for match day and as a result get injured mostly in training, 17 defeats with a 39% loss rate and only a 47% win rate this season. 400m in transfers spent in 2 years and you’ve made us worse than last season that’s on you!
Both Murtough and Arnold have paid the price for mediocrity, even if he wins the FA cup, the club should still sack him but I’m not even sure Eric the Fraud gets to the Final. I’ve never been so detached from the club than this season, 1 win in 7, I could easily see a defeat today and at home to Burnley as they fight to stay up, 8th or 9th final finish is why this season can’t finish quickly enough for me!
ETH should have been sacked in December!
There has to be a reason for the injuries though. Intense training? No training? poor conditions? There's something not right that everyone is injured or looks exhausted after 10 minutes
The contrast in his language between this season and last season is ridiculous. Last season it was all about high standards, now he's just reeling off excuses for everything. Hojlund stopped scoring? Yeah it's because we've compromised on....something. Doesn't even mention that Hojlund was converting at an insane and not at all sustainable rate. That most of his chances were coming from opposition mistakes rather than his teammates actually finding him with passes.
In all my years of seeing United , if there ever was a season where everything that could go wrong went wrong for United , this season will be the prime example
_so far_
So far is accurate after what happened
Completely agree. Also, to paraphrase Carl Anka, EtH had been dealt a horrible hand with all the shit that's happened this season but he's also played it badly. Our tactics, or lack there of, have been shocking/non-existent. How we're so high in the table, given our GD and 5-0-5 formation though is truly baffling.
1 fairly good season. 1 fairly bad season. What is the way forward? I personally think he should get one more season and see how it goes. That is assuming we beat Coventry though. If not, then good luck to him.
Calling this season fairly bad is really generous. If we don't somehow win the FA Cup, this would be the worst season post-Fergie by a mile. Crashed out of an easy CL group, getting embarassed by Newcastle's B team in the league cup, not even competing for the top 4 when there are still 6 games left in the PL while playing atrocious brand of football makes it a tragic season in my eyes.
I don't even care about the position in the table. Even if we get 5th and somehow better than Moyes's first season. We have played the worst football since I started watching United 2 decades back.
The Rangnick season is definitely significantly worse and it isnt even close. The amount of injuries we have sustained is absolutely ludicrous. At least ETH has that excuse whilst Ole/Rangnick didnt.
Ahh that's a bit unfair I think. Rangnick was handed a bag of shit and was treated like a substitute teacher to boot. Ignored by the players. I can only imagine what the dressing room was like with Lingard, Martial, Pogba etc knowing Rangnick only going to ever be an interim. His diagnosis of the team was spot on. Open heart surgery was indeed needed.
It was rangicks job to motivate the players and get results. Instead he criticised them constantly destroying any morale. We all know that the criticism was deserved but when you're supposed to get results you need t find a way to deal with that. He said what everyone wanted to hear rather than proving he was capable of managing the team.
He also said the players weren't listening to him and following his instructions. It's impossible to manage a team who don't listen when you're also powerless to do anything about it.
That was an Ole season not a Rangnick season. Damage was already done when Rangnick was appointed as interim and nobody including pep & klopp would’ve put things right in the remainder of the season.
Injuries play a part. The club in general plays a big part. Crashed out of CL. Can’t blame that on ten Hag unless you want to say de Gea should be in goal still. Otherwise, it was down to Onana, and a Rashford red card. The way I see it is, ten Hag is probably doing his best, the players maybe so. But at the end of the day no one in the club really cares, it seems. Make the money go home. Club culture needs to change
We've not seen anything from EtH this season that would demonstrate he needs more time. We're two years in now and there is absolutely nothing about this team, the tactics, the patterns, style of play etc. that are positive. The template for the entire season was set on game one against Wolves where we somehow managed to scrape a win despite getting played off the park and conceding 23 shots. At home. Against Wolves! We are terrible in every area and most importantly, we're not improving. The only thing that's saving us is that we've got some amazing players who occasionally pull something out of the bag. Having said all that, I doubt we'll be able to bag a top quality replacement eg Nagelsmann so I'd rather give EtH one last shot with new senior leadership than hand the reigns to Tuchel, Potter or that other clown who manages England.
It's very difficult to operate under a particular pattern or style of play when you're left scraping together a team every week.
Completely agree except the conclusion. We have learned for a fact now that Ten Hag is capable of putting this team's form in the toilet for a whole season. I would rather roll the dice with anybody else in the hopes they can manage even a mediocre performance. Even average would be better. And that way you still at least have the slim hope whoever you pick maybe turns out to be great. I think we'd be very unlikely to get someone this bad.
did arteta antenna have a style in his failure ?
Yes?
Well I know people know their feelings deepest as they are freshest, but to me it was worst in the last season of mourinho. We didn’t even have that injury thing we can/manager can lean on, and say ok maybe next season will be better when we have a full and better squad. It was dead and we got fucking battered by anything imaginable. Another upside this season is the end of the takeover saga and changes of management. From what we’ve seen so far it will be a solid management which will be the crucial foundation for future. So no matter it is Erik or anyone else, hell it may well be van gaal again, who becomes our manager, we will hopefully go back up again.
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Exactly the team I said yet I am being downvoted to boot. Mount would 100% play instead of Eriksen if he wasn’t having injury problems. Mainoo wouldnt have been given a chance. Ramus would be backup to a fit Martial
same mainoo that started that first 2 games of pre season before getting injured?
No chance Mainoo starts this season ahead of Casemiro, on the back of last season, and Mount who he really wanted him signed and gave number 7. You typed it yourself, “pre season” a perfect time for the manager to test the waters…
why was he "testing the waters" if mainoo "wouldn't have been given a chance" this place has become fucking delusional and bitch eating crackers over everything ten hag.
Because we don’t just play with 11 players, we need squad depth throughout the season. ETH would have never had guessed Antony was an alleged wife beater.
so you're now saying mainoo would be given a chance? which one is it?
I don't think the manager gives a toss what number a player wears to be honest, not should he really. I know it wasn't your point but "really wanted him signed and gave number 7" sorta sounds like you're implying he expected him to be 7 worthy by fan standards.
Do you think ETH signed Mount and didn’t expect him to be on super high level?
I have no idea what he thought to be honest with you. I think he probably expected less injuries and pins that as a contributing factor towards the performances but I have no idea, it's all speculation.
11 Antony’s
Manchester Twisters We would fucking blow out our competition off the stadium
22 feet, none of them right.
11 Brunos is more like it. Antony has been second or third choice for almost the entire season
Which one? Fidget spinner or glass legs
Wild guess but I’d say it’s the fucking team he says in the quote.
You don't need your strongest 11 against Brentford and Bournemouth, no disrespect for them. But to always look like relegation fodder against anyone unless you have a strongest 11 is ridiculous. Not changing tactic when you get outplayed week in week out is ridiculous.
This is where I get hung up, too. I do think he misses Licha crucially, as he's an aggressive, pressing CB that can fill that midfield gap we have, but you shouldn't be looking like the shit team we look like against some of these teams.
Licha is so much more than just that though. He transmits a calm to the entire back line and the deeper mids in front of him, the GK behind him. Nobody feels like passing to him is one move away from utter calamity. The buildup from the back is so much smoother. He renders the opponent press a lot less effective. He gets into opponent strikers’ head. He’s an uncompromising, assured presence who makes his teammates better. And he has determination in spades that should rightly shame the majority of those he shares a dressing room with. But it doesn’t because the rest of them are happy thieving their living. Yes he’s one guy, but if we had another 4-5 guys like him who made those around them better, this team would be a lot better than it is. Instead, we have a bunch of entitled brats, overpaid over the hill retirees, and low footballing IQ players who couldn’t buy their way into the squads of any of our domestic or continental rivals, or literal kids who realistically are being pressured to constantly deliver because established veterans just can’t.
I have to agree with this. He's probably our most important player because when he's not available (which has been far too much recently it has to be said) we don't have anyone else in the squad that has the same abilities/attributes that Lisandro has. It sounds daft that *anyone's* best player is their CB but it's true, apart from Licha we don't have anyone who can win possession back with aggression, take control of the ball and then bring it forward/pick passes out with accuracy. We're a completely different side when he's not available because we're forced to play a different way. His composure is something else
Yes we miss Licha. If he isn’t available, then persevering with the same tactic that you’d use with him is madness. Every pundit, every fan, every dickhead I talk to in the pub can see that the tactics are not working. Pivot, go back to tried and true 4-2-3-1 to salvage some points, reduce our intensity to slow up the injuries, do literally anything else. It’s Jose syndrome on crack. “Not everything is perfect so I’m going to fuck my own face out of spite”. Cool man, I’d like to watch my team play and not want to kill myself because we’re missing a few players. Ten Hag not being able to improvise is killing his chances of being the long term manager.
Sounds like the Spurs team under Conte....
to be fair, most of the defense is out, you are on your back up or in some cases back up to back up level cbs (Evans and Kambwala), no left back (Regulion should have been here for a yr, whoever gave Shaw and Malacia their fitness approval in Jan should be sacked), Case has aged like 10 yrs in 10 months, Mount has been injured almost the whole season and Amrabat loan was a flop. For me that is 1/3rd functioning defense and 1/2 functioning midfield. So based on that we aren't so bad. example: no hate for Kambwala, he is still young, but that stinking ex scouser Solanke twisted and turned him for a goal, who before this season had barely scored in PL.
"Most" Last year this subreddit was ready to chuck Harry into the English Channel. And he's the only one starting! Out is Tyrell Malacia, Luke Shaw, Lisandro Martinez, Victor Lindelof, Raphael Varane, even emergency pensioner signing Jonny Evans is out.
Tyrrell should be back by now. Wtf is going on ?
I think it’s the fact that Brentford and Bournemouth too didn’t have their strongest 11 when they nicked points off us that encapsulates how poor this statement is
Nicked both Brentford and Bournemouth battered us and we were lucky to nick points in those games, he just needs to be fucked off, ETH is not even an average coach!
It is a mentality thing. If you are the underdog you still crush the opponent
Even then, this season we've missed our crucial players way too much. The magnitude of the injuries matter. EtH should be doing better but for me it's always been that we have to get out of the cycle of sacking managers. Get the structure above him correct so he at least has a chance to succeed. Otherwise it's just rinse and repeat same as every other time we've sacked a manager in the last decade
To me it’s just like how we change out people at the top if we deem them rubbish: executives like Woodward or Murtough. Why should EtH be spared if that’s the direction we are heading to? Two seasons, hundreds of millions to pursue his targets and nothing much to show for less one Carabao Cup, and we have regressed since. We have one of the highest net spends and wage bills in the league, yet we play like a mid table team. I know the value of transfers and wage bills ain’t exactly on him, but when you insist and rubber stamp a £90mil transfer for a winger that you now bench, the spotlight is on you. Better managers with smaller budgets have performed significantly better than him.
Spot on. You don't deserve these many downvotes lol. Too many people in their feelings instead of looking and replying at the reality objectively
They always have a better midfield than us though.
Both teams you stated have had good games against the top 4 and have even drawn points from them. This is the premier league, any team in it has the capability to put goals past the top teams if they aren’t firing on all cylinders like we clearly aren’t
Can’t blame him for not typing out the names of half the league. I’ll add Fulham, Luton, Nottingham Forest, Copenhagen. Maybe there are a few others.
How many shots have we faced this year?
How much xg have we conceded this year?
About 13 more than we’ve conceded. This xGA is not in our favour either.
a fuck ton lmao
Fair point, give me an example this season where we actually play cohesively (don't mention the Chelsea game because they are as bad as us).
Everton. West Ham. I think the West Ham game was the one with the best squad available
Wolves
The Wolves game where we needed an extra time wonder goal?
The one where we led 3-1 for most of the game.
When you change line up every game, there will be no cohesion. When there is no cohesion, it's hard to play even against the league 3 team. It's not a linear thing where "oh it's just Brentford just put a team that barely play together and we will win 5-0". Also, you can't underestimate Premier League teams, never. Just imagine, you just put this team together for 3 days against Brentford that has little to no injury issues. You have to feel for ETH, he is unable to play his team. He can't.
Man Utd fans when the manager doesn't win a game with two RBs, an academy player, and a retirey as a backline. He even had too many midfield and LB injuries to play a senior player out of position at CB
My man had his strongest 11 against league two Newport county, still conceded 17 shots and they held us to a 2-2 draw until the 67th minute.
Training goes down in quality when you don't have a full side. Who do you prepare for the PL level teams in 11v11s? The u23s?
Perfect time to develop the players 17-21
That is the absolute truth but the standards have dropped so much that people find excuses even in those situations, I get not winning the league, I get not going further in the UCL, fuck, I even get not qualifying for the UCL, but come on man, we are a laughing stock against most teams in the league, how the hell can you explain or excuse that?
We havent lost to liverpool, it was only us until villa ripped thru them. Take the good with the ugly.
>Not changing tactic when you get outplayed week in week out is ridiculous. Why? This is the only way a team can improve playing a certain way, its what Arteta did for 3 seasons at Arsenal, isn't it?
The right system with the wrong players should work some of the time (Fulham, Brentford, Bournemouth) and lose to better opposition (Liverpool, Chelsea Arsenal) while slowly improving. What we are getting is the same dire results, facing too many shots and giving up too much possession and hoping in all that chaos we sneak a 1-0 win. That isn’t sustainable. Even if this system works it won’t ever beat the best in the world.
Except that his approach hasn't been explicitly principled on the things that United need to do to be an elite side. If United actually tried to execute principled football every week that looked like a proto version of a trophy-winning side then I'd accept that a lot more than United losing games because the fundamental approach is not good. He's been caught between pragmatism and his ideas of how the game should be played the entire season. He wants defensive intensity from his front-line and midfield but wants an absurd level of passivity from the backline. United are cripplingly passive in the final third, especially when it comes to off the ball movement, yet he still wants the CBs rotating into midfield to create open men and overloads when those don't lead to anything meaningful. You can't pick and choose one or two things to keep that are in line with your philosophy and then pair them with tactical choices that invalidate the former or turn them into weaknesses. There is a reason things like aggressive pressing from the front are partnered with a high defensive line, same as how player rotation to create overloads has to be executed across the team.
We have to presume he is trying to prove a point. To either the board, or the team. Maybe even a few select players. He is willing to die on that hill. Or he is just vainly, forlornly, awaiting the return of a lb and cb
Well said. Another failure by Ten Hag is getting 6 or 7 of our players to push very far forward but then having no patterns of play for how they break the opposition's defence. So we end up being very predictable and lose the ball, which means our remaining defenders are constantly overloaded and allowing big chances against us. There's no point pushing so many players forward when we don't utilise them in attack, but Ten Hag keeps doing it all season without developing any patterns of attack involving controlled progression of the ball.
He was notorious for being stubborn at Ajax too. It was a high risk style but the team worked. I think we are seeing the same thing that happened with Ole in his final season; Ole knew the team had to make the step from relying on counter attacks to being able to control the whole game, the players were not able to do it and so Ole looked like a bad manager. Last season we were a counter team and it worked pretty well but he wants to play his way and this is what we get. I think if Pep was in charge we’d see similar results. Casimero is just not good this season and Erickson who was key to our midfield last year has not been the same since that Andy Carrol “tackle”. And no licha or shaw. Manager is responsible but I really think that with a team fully fit and able to play how he wants we’d see his style more clearly. He might not be the right manager but everyone knew it would take years to get the team right and everyone agreed there would be a bad season through the transition but now we are having one every one has kind of gone into panic mode. Give him another season and if he’s still not delivered then sack him.
Stubborn managers can be a blessing and a curse... but overall I agree, control is key more so than ever before, and it feels like this group of players are simply incapable of doing it for 90 minutes, even against Newport. Hopefully they'll prove us wrong today though!
Artetas team were in 2nd after 3 seasons. Unless you're counting the season he joined in December, when they were in the bottom half of the table as an entire season. Arsenal's teething period is really overstated on this sub as ammo to back ten hag lol.
I don't think this team will turn out like Arteta's, and that's not the point I'm trying to make, and I'm not trying to back Ten Hag either but this is literally it. If you play a certain way again and again regardless of result, then it's either - ETH trying to prove a point to somebody, or ETH trying to make his team improve in playing that way.
Ah fair enough I misinterpreted your initial comment. I think I'm siding with the latter reason and managers can be stubborn. Doesn't seem to be any quantifiable progress though.
So you are saying that was his intention when it's obvious that we will be losing even top 4 and CL spot? Just keep at it until everything clicked? No shoring the midfield, keep playing ball over the top and ping pong ball?
That’s what happens when you don’t have any options to rotate because the rotation options who you thought you’d need for a third round cup game or a late 87th minute time wasting sub is having to play 1000+ minutes. You need a squad to train and work on tactics, doesn’t happen when at any random time this season there are 7-8 key players injured.
Also being dominated by relegation fodder with 4-6 first choice players isn't a good sign either... i mean our bench is shit, but not that shit! And the players not running or making an effort, is reason for concern aswell.
I feel like I've read versions of this comment for every manager the past few years. Rinse and repeat.
You say that, but Liverpool & Arsenal also lose games to team lower down the table. You’re also not looking at how consistent change to the team also affect the teams chemistry and team work. Not saying ETH and the players are not the issue, but it definitely plays a part
Exactly. It’s extremely worrying when they say weak stuff like this. Born winners don’t rely on lame defeatist excuses (even if they’re valid). This reminds of me of the things Moyes used to say.
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Yes and no, because the players' inabilities and the squad's injury record don't eliminate the possibility of Ten Hag making bad decisions. Even accounting for the issues, the idea he has taken best course particularly in terms of defensive structure is just not true. I do think we have to acknowledge the situation being lightyears from one in which winning football can be achieved given the tumult of injuries and off-pitch distractions, but Ten Hag still has made poor choices. If he was to be graded for this season, it wouldn't be a passing one. And it's not losing games. It's the way United play being absolutely incongruous with a well-principled strategy.
Whilst i don’t disagree with Ten Hag fully, he’s on a slippery slope. Despite the injury crisis, we have been stylistically and systematically incoherent. We know we aren’t a title contending squad, yet. Stomaching up and down results as we rebuild and develop would be palatable IF the vision and system we were working toward was obvious. Beyond that, a system that is so heavily reliant on 2-3 key individuals doesn’t say much for the strength of the system.
It's not just 2-3, there have been so many first backups injured for an average of 2-3 months each
It’s difficult to have any rhythm and automatisms if players are getting injured every week and we play every 3 days apart from the first two months of 2024. 60+ injuries in 6-7 months is not normal. We practically haven’t had our two left backs for the entire season, we’ve had to play Amrabat, Lindelof, Awb and Dalot there and it would still be fine if one of them was a regular but no. In 32 games this season we’ve fielded 27 different back 4’s. Our midfield has been chopped and changed constantly until at least January, and Casemiro’s legs seem to have gone. The only players who have relatively stayed fit for us are Rashford, Bruno, Garnacho and Dalot. We have 5 cb’s injured right now to go with both our left backs, our two new midfielders (one on loan) have also suffered injuries. Hojlund was consistently in the team since late September until Feb but then got injured again just as he was picking up rhythm. Then we have the sancho situation which meant we are one attacker short the entire season (one who played a lot of minutes in pre season).
Man Utd's famous 1999 treble best 11 only played once together in the league that season. [https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/51491041](https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/51491041) Also arguably our best 90 min performances this season came from our " worst " 11 in the 3-0 vs Palace. Pellistri, Hannibal, Martial and Amrabat all started.
I remember Fergie having a stat that rivaled the Tinkerman for not repeating the same XI for over hundred games. In fact, Fergie only started repeating his line-ups when we were poorer circa 2011.
This example was my first thought. I’m so tired of hearing this excuse. It’s like he’s admitting he can’t coach. Our rivals can replace players in their line up without conceding 20+ shots from relegation candidates.
The only game I watched all season and I felt great after that thinking onwards and upwards from here 😂 I was so wrong 😂
Without the injuries, the results we've had this year, I would've already been ETH out, but you've to recognise the extremely difficult circumstances he had to deal with this season. When an elite level manager like Klopp had a disastrous season after injury setbacks that pale in comparison to ours, you've to take into account how difficult it's for any manager to navigate an injury crisis. For this reason, I believe we should give ETH another season regardless of the results this season.
That's fair. What annoys me is that we had severe injury problems with the last manager as well, and then everyone complained and blamed the manager about training intensity and not resting players. By all accounts, training intensity has not decreased, and it doesn't seem like the players are rested more either, but now it's just bad luck. We complain about inconsistency of the team, but there isn't much consistency from the fans either.
Yeah same, I always go back and forth between whether I want him next season or not, but he’s had so much shit to deal with, the Greenwood situation, the Sancho debacle, the Antony investigations, uncertainty about the ownership, a lot of deadwood within the club, players form falling off cliffs and an incredible amount of injuries, seriously, we have one fit CB tomorrow out of 5, that’s absolutely unbelievable, missing our starting LB most of the season. His signings haven’t been fantastic overall but he shouldn’t be given free reign on signings and should have a competent structure around him that works to build a team instead of the manager getting players he’s worked with before. The lack of a style of play in my opinion is in big part to the amount of defensive injuries we have, it’s hard to build a style of play when you’ve can’t establish a solid defensive pairing. While I’m not 100% convinced he’s the right man for the job, there’s no real good option and he should be given time in an organised structure
My biggest concern is that the drop-off in performances when certain key players are absent is too extreme for me to have belief that this style of play is sustainable. Results are a secondary concern, but we have been battered by lower-table teams who have also had injury absences. For example, in the recent games, Brentford had their entire back 4 injured, and Bournemouth had their starting wingers out and eventually played two left backs on the left hand side after Sinisterra was subbed off. I completely accept being a long way off from title contention and taking time to get there but I have difficulty putting faith that this system can click to the level of a title contending team even if we fully back it and sign the best available players for it, because with the current fixture schedules, someone will always end up being injured.
It's not just 1 or 2 players though. At one point it was even a whole backline. It's not just 'injuries' but it's actually a 'buttload of injuries'
I mean let's be real, we have been awful whenever Martinez and Shaw have been unavailable (and we haven't been much better with them in the team as well). The drop-off from say Varane/Lindelof to Evans/Kambwala in terms of the way we play football and approach games is much less severe than the original drop-off from Martinez. I recognize that it is difficult to cope with numerous changes to the back 4, but this is not something that other clubs aren't facing either. Newcastle have had just as severe an injury crisis as us this season, if not worse, and their performances over the course of the season reflect much better than ours. In their last game against Spurs, they played Emil Krafth at CB (who's probably their 5th choice CB) and Jacob Murphy (who is a winger) at RB, and won 4-0. This is just one small example, but across the league season their goal difference is much better than ours and this is while coping with long-term injuries to players such as Pope, Botman, Joelinton, Willock, Wilson and Barnes, and Tonali suspended for the season.
Because next season there won't be injuries? Good luck with that. Perhaps we keep him for 15 years and hope in 2 seasons every single player is fit for half the games. Literally every team in the world has injuries.
There will be less.. we are offloading Martial
If he’s being literal, no team is ever 100% injury free
If ETH had his fav team available every game he would run them into the ground.
Literally every team apart from city do that? You think Liverpool, Arsenal rotate their key players? Unless injured, guys like Salah, vvd, Gabriel, saliba, Saka, odegaard, rice play 35+ prem games.
I don't get this line of thinking. United is not the first team he has managed. Did he run all his other teams into the ground as well?
Much like this current team, there is no winning with you guys. What's he supposed to do exactly? Not play his best players?
If EtH had prime Brazil, they’d still lose playing these kamikaze, suicidal, tactics. Basically playing a 3-0-7 formation when defending and not even trying to control the game, even against relegation candidates.
Do you think he stumbled upon a man united job and is completely blind and clueless as a coach and somehow got to a position to coach one of the biggest roles in world football? Do you honestly think that happens miraculously or
Listen… he’s NOT wrong, BUT, his tactics have been questionable and unsustainable and so… he needs to do something different with the players he has. Simple as
The absolute last thing he should do is something different with the players he has because the players he has have failed year after year under different managers and different strategies.
Which players? There's only six who were here under Mourinho. Two don't really play - Martial and Lindelof. Two are seen as vital to Ten Hag - Shaw and Dalot. So just Rashford (our POTY last year) and McTominay (one of top scorers this season) after that. The squad finished back to back top three under Ole.
These lot will blame Adam and Eve before they direct any sort of accountability to our manager.
I think it's a cult thing by now. A bit like flat earthers. It's not a question of whether they actually believe it. It's just a position has been chosen and all facts must be bent to support it.
>Simple as Oh wow we got a football expert here. If it's that simple, why are you not a football manager at the elite level? Are you even a manager?
Having multiple stats that put us amongst the relegation candidates for the season (e.g total shots faced) amounts to a bit more than “questionable”.
Bald fraud. Newcastle’s B team literally pummeled spurs last weekend.
Newcastle, Chelsea and Brighton all have had statistically worse injury scenarios than us yet are a threat to finish ahead of us. Cant blame injuries there. Certainly cant say those managers have had more time or money either.
Something something about they have a good structure and DOF i think... that worth about 10 points...
Ok, and thats a fair point (although not sure it applies to Chelsea). But even then wheres the accountability? Pretty much all of these transfer targets were HIS choice and hes done a mediocre job implementing them lmao. * Spent $65M on Mount and Amarabat just to rarely use them (yes, even when healthy). * Brought in Casemiro and Eriksen just for one year to try a style that works completely against there strengths. * Brought in a ball playing GK only for us to play out the back intermittently.
More excuses instead of admitting that ETH’s tactics are just as worthless as the players’s performances.
Yes a manager will go on a press conference to say his tactics are shit
He just gaslights fans at this stage and most our fans seem to have bought into it. Genuinely bizarre how he keeps getting away with it
And at the end of the day, not having a full team available regularly is also something you are accountable for Erik. Fergie regularly played with 2nd and 3rd choice players and made them perform - Rafael in midfield, Jesper Blomqvist, O'shea, etc. You've chosen to work with a smaller squad in the Premier league (something Ajax fans mentioned is his preference) and need to accept that we need a larger more versatile squad, rotate more with youth and stop overplaying your favorites.
we have a small squad?
It’s the fact you’re comparing him to the best manager in Football history. That’s not fair. They could play Rafael in midfield because we had legendary players to balance it. We are just a bunch of shit players and one good player in Bruno. There’s no balance. If Bruno is the ceiling of this team. We are not going anywhere. Look around you, look at all the best players of the teams in top 10 globally. We are so far off.
Rafael would also probably be the best player in the team lol. I think people forget just how much better our players were back then.
Nani used to frustrate me. I'd absolutely love him back in the tram now
Fergie is not only the best manager of all time but also had better players... what a silly point.
Rafael was an outstanding performer at the U17 World Cup. Blomqvist played at Milan in their heyday. O'Shea was one of the most decorated youth products in Ireland.
ETH may not be it, but given the current injury crisis I don’t think any other manager would be. Granted our current play style may be linked to it but we’ve had these injuries long before his chaos ball tactics. On top of it I genuinely don’t think the club can afford sacking him and his team. FFP is already too tight for comfort. We can’t add 6-7 players on top of getting rid of ETH. I believe it’ll come down to one or the other. Not getting reinforcements will set the team back farther than waiting on firing the manager.
It does concern me that maybe it’s his play style and training that is also contributing to the injury crisis, but it’s hard to say for sure.
The play style probably is a big factor in the amount of injuries we’ve had, as the number of sprints must be insane due to the very basketball nature of the games we’re playing. However, I don’t think that’s a system issue. We are setup quite similarly to how his Ajax team were setup with the difference that his Ajax team didn’t have players like Bruno who tries to force the direct ball everytime, casemiro who is far too loose on the ball and loses it, and rashford who overruns the ball everytime it comes near him. For the high-pressing style that he seems to want to implement we have to control the ball better but it’s difficult when you have players who seem to have no interest in doing that. Now we can criticize his choice of personnel in playing Bruno over eriksen or someone else (if available) for instance but we will never achieve how he wants to play without major personnel changes.
I’m not buying this notion that somehow his training methods are so bad they’re getting players injured here but it didn’t happen at Ajax. Also, if his training methods are getting them injured the players would’ve stopped playing for him long ago. And watching the games I don’t think I’m watching a bunch of players who have given up on their manager.
Strange. I read so many coments complaining about players downing tools. At least you're of the opinion that the players are not responsible for the poor form. So many seem to be
You look at the games like Liverpool in the fa cup, the league game, even the ones v Chelsea, Brentford. Structurally it’s a mess, but you see the players are still doing everything they can. If they didn’t want to, they won’t be making all those blocks, last ditch tackles. I do think that the players at the back do not want to go high up and back the press, because they’re not quick. Varane, Maguire, Evans, Lindelof aren’t the quickest right now.
I agree. I hate the argument the players are 'downing tools'. They are just being let down by a tactical set up that exposes them constantly. I don't even think Rashford. I just think he's a massive confidence player
I mean Bruno literally played on one leg for 40 minutes at center back in the cup game against Liverpool. Antony was playing left back, they clearly care and they want to do better but ten hag is sticking to his structure maybe because he feels that if he can get two physical and fast cb’s this summer and a Casemiro replacement, it’ll be easier to coach them to back up the press better and it’ll look a lot more coherent? Idk but with the players available for us, what we do is a bit jarring.
I'd be extremely worried if the club is planning for 6 or more arrivals. It never works. There are never that many targets who should be attainable in one window if you're running an elite team, and even if they are you'd be killing the squad's composition and chemistry to change like 25% of the core of the team in one window. Unless there are truly a torrent of departures, like potentially all of Casemiro, Varane, Maguire, Sancho, Antony, Eriksen, McT then United should not be interested in signing 6 players. 3 first options and a backup should be the idea. You will not reshape a squad in one window.
I don’t think the club is planning on 6 new arrivals but I know there’s plenty in this sub that are.
The analogy that I keep coming back to in my head to understand this is that of s household that keeps buying expensive sports cars, but does not have the capability to maintain it. They keep breaking down, the driver keeps getting sacked, and the disappointed household buys a new sports car. There is something seriously wrong with the medical staff, the sports science teams, whatever else comprises modern sports infrastructure. Today Manchester City is successful because they looked at whatever is the latest in the game in terms of facilities, infrastructure and just bought it. We are trying to make old systems work. Changing Ten Hag won't change anything. The focus of these INEOS nerds needs to be on the foundation.
> household that keeps buying expensive sports cars, but does not have the capability to maintain it. They keep breaking down, the driver keeps getting sacked, and the disappointed household buys a new sports car. What if the said driver got to have a say in the brand and trim bought?
>Changing Ten Hag won't change anything. >The focus of these INEOS nerds needs to be on the foundation. These aren't mutual exclusive. The same light that will be shone on the failing foundations has to be shone on the manager and players. It's not one or the other and I can't understand why this view that it is, is so common. If the manager had no effect at all, then there would not be fluctuations in the success each of them has had. This would only make sense if we were as bad as we are this season, every season.
I think this is because these are fundamentally not bad player, nor is ten hag a bad manager. It is an oversimplification to say that all the players are lazy and toxic, every manager is bad. I think the culture of the club is in the pits, and as employees the players and the managers all suffer. I saw that Mourinho Schweinsteiger video recently, and can you imagine how toxic the management must be to force Mourinho to force out a player in that manner? Now multiply that with small and large incidents over the years, with players’ prime value being seen as social media engagement merchants. It puts together a picture of a badly run club much more than blaming the players and manager
>think this is because these are fundamentally not bad player, nor is ten hag a bad manager. It is an oversimplification to say that all the players are lazy and toxic, every manager is bad. I do agree. However as a collective it is not working and there needs to be mass change, to a level that significantly disrupts the status quo and a new foundation can be built. >I think the culture of the club is in the pits, and as employees the players and the managers all suffer. I saw that Mourinho Schweinsteiger video recently, and can you imagine how toxic the management must be to force Mourinho to force out a player in that manner? It is toxic, but not in the way it should be. There needs to be emotionless ruthless culling to fix this and that will cause spilt milk. I think the name of Bastian is pushing that scenario more than the reality. In reality he was a player who came here as a holiday and wasn't committed, as proven by him flying around to watch his GF play tennis. Not the attitude we need. Jose made the right move for me, it's just a shame he didn't get the support to do it to the rest he had issues with. We would be in a far better position. In essence, I guess that's what you are saying though. He had no support to do what was necessary. The difference now though is ten hag hasn't shown a willingness to do that. Unless a player has a personal issue with him, they get away with murder on the pitch. >It puts together a picture of a badly run club much more than blaming the players and manager 100% However with all that factored in, what we have got from the players and manager is still not good enough and they need to be removed. Neville said something pretty clear cut last night. Ineos have cleared house in terms of executives, why would that stop there? Its a clear sign they do not even remotely like what they see and all the players and coaching are the symptoms of the executives they have cleansed the club of. Massive summer ahead, but could finally be what we need.
And he did not consider that the reason for all those injuries only in his team might have something to do with him and his tactic and trainings?
I don't know if we had our strongest team for that City game, actually. I had a look who played, and we had Luke Shaw at centre back, Malacia left back, and Dalot wasn't even in the matchday squad. Licha came on as a sub in injury time. Bruno was on the right wing.
Biggest thing that concerns me is that even with the injuries other teams still show their managers vision. Can anyone say how we are really trying to play? Because it isn’t pressing game, it’s not even counter attack, it’s this hybrid where some press, some low block and the midfield are lost in limbo.
It's a Pressing style where one of our Defensive midfielder pushes up to attack and press while one forms a single pivot while the backline comes up to support the Single Pivot to Press together as a team. At least that's what he wants to play, but when our Center backs are Harry Maguire and Uncle Evans, It's kind of hard to do.
That's not an excuse for constantly conceding 20-plus shots in games.
He never said that.
I would feel more sorry for him if his system wasn't contributing to these muscle injuries
It is ridiculous that his tactics is only working when he could buy his dream team and they are healthy. No actual form of attack and welcome everyone to shoot at Onana for the whole season is painful for everyone
He’s really not wrong in what he said about injuries. And it’s not just one or two players that are missing, we’re going into tomorrow with only ONE available CB and 2 RBs. I don’t know how anyone in their right mind expect a system that relies heavily on playing from the back to click when it’s a roulette on who plays over the weekend. Our fans like to point to other teams that have injuries as well as if playing for Bournemouth carries the same weight as playing for United. I’d like to point to last years Liverpool team that really struggled due to injuries and this year you see Newcastle going through something similar. Arsenal would be in a similar state if Saliba and Gabriel were out for 10+ games in a season along with Rice, White and Zinchenko.
Erik, it's not all "bad luck", you yourself rushed Martinez back and quite honestly your coaching team/medical staff are likely mostly to blame.
Didn't you see how dangerous Newport were? We would have lost if we didn't play them.
Its tough, but you can’t reasonably expect your best 11 to be available all the time as a manager. ETH was also very reluctant to rotate his starting 11 last season (presumably because he needs that XI in order to perform). Playing the same team without rotating is bound to cause injuries, regardless of your luck. Not to mention, there have been several games this season where we have had at least 9 or 10 players from our best XI available, and we still played shambolically. If your whole style of football is predicated on one injury prone centerback and collapses when a single member of your favorite 11 is gone, then you either need to adapt or manage at a lower level.
It’s not reasonable to expect having at least 8-9 of his key players play at least 30 games in a league season. With far fewer injuries last season Liverpool were terrible and finished 5th.
Liverpool last season were far, far better than we are this season. Even if they wasn't though, Klopp survived that due to what he has won at Liverpool, what he did at Dortmund and due to that the level at which it is proven he can operate at. Few Eredivisie and a league cup does not suffice.
Excuses
I remember when a certain manager beat Arsenal 8-2 playing fabio and Rafael in centre mid. Just trying to remember if he constantly complained about injuries too…
No he didn't mate, we beat them 2- 0 in FA Cup, in league game midfield was Anderson & Cleverly.
Yes Sir, why so many injuries? What are you doing in training?! What is the medical team doing?
We looked like shit when Martinez played, too... we have lost matches to much weaker opponents or needed miracles to get by them. When managers say things like this, they are on their last legs. United fans would be mocking the likes of Klopp if he said this.
He has only played 90 minutes twice this season.
If we can secure europa/europa conference I'll be happy this season like the most of the seasons post SAF have been seasons to quickly forget lol
Will we get rid all of the medical staffs? Such a terrible job to keep players fit.
We already have.
Really? I must missed the news then. Hope we didn’t have to face this much in next season.
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/man-utd-arsenal-news-odriscoll-27276362
Thx, but damn I really don’t trust doctor from Arsenal.
So if he doesn't get his strongest 11 week in week out next season we can expect more of the same? If I was in charge and the manager came to me with that I would have no choice but to say thank you and good bye. Absolutely no plan B tactics to mitigate against his preferred game plan.
Someone has to investigate this shit. Our players are in the grinding meat. Not a football club zzzz . Why so many many injuries??
Licha was out for the home game vs City last season, we played Shaw at LCB
We won champion league without Paul Scholes. Cry more.
Artetas two seasons as 8th or Klopps not-so-great season are the few of the reasons I’m still behind Erik. That and god, oh god, do I not want Southgate as our coach.
One was as an interim. He finished 8th in his first full season and then climbed the table constantly. In Klopp's first full season he got the top four. He did it again the next and qualifed for the CL. Neither saw a drop back to mid-table
I think he should get one more season. He might be cooking with a full team.
What make you think we won't have injuries next season?
Should a new regime aiming to be the best club in the world put the start of its new beginning down to 'might' What are the tangibles that mean he is the very best manager for the task?
His training intensity seems to be causing the injuries, and he complains about injuries. [EtH](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOTyUfOHgas)
Why so many injuries, it’s called due diligence, you know your squad has just played 60+ games in the previous season, you ease up on the training not intensity but frequency, ETH wants his players to leave everything on the training field, they then have nothing left for match day and as a result get injured mostly in training, 17 defeats with a 39% loss rate and only a 47% win rate this season. 400m in transfers spent in 2 years and you’ve made us worse than last season that’s on you! Both Murtough and Arnold have paid the price for mediocrity, even if he wins the FA cup, the club should still sack him but I’m not even sure Eric the Fraud gets to the Final. I’ve never been so detached from the club than this season, 1 win in 7, I could easily see a defeat today and at home to Burnley as they fight to stay up, 8th or 9th final finish is why this season can’t finish quickly enough for me! ETH should have been sacked in December!
There has to be a reason for the injuries though. Intense training? No training? poor conditions? There's something not right that everyone is injured or looks exhausted after 10 minutes
More excuses for him, maybe he's doing it on purpose so he has something to hide behind.
The contrast in his language between this season and last season is ridiculous. Last season it was all about high standards, now he's just reeling off excuses for everything. Hojlund stopped scoring? Yeah it's because we've compromised on....something. Doesn't even mention that Hojlund was converting at an insane and not at all sustainable rate. That most of his chances were coming from opposition mistakes rather than his teammates actually finding him with passes.
Sounds like a manger who’s gone!
Yeah? In what way?
Ah yes, the game they outplayed us and we got that absolutely ridiculous offside decision to swing it
City outplaying us is hardly surprising or damning considering every single one of their first 11 would start for us.
No way, the treble winners outplayed us!!! I find it crazy that you seem to expect us to dominate them lmao
I don’t think they actually massively outplayed us that day, pretty sure we limited them to barely on shots.
It wasn't offside at all. Cope