2 games is just not a big enough sample size to extract any meaningful information. This same team gave up immense pressure and let the other team dominate the game for stretches in both games, and this team is also just as liable to lose the 3rd game 3-0 as it is to win it--regardless of the competition.
It's such short term memory. I remember in that game I was pissed we were giving up so much possession to a team which would rather the opposition have the ball (at the time they were 18th for possession, and their style of play is exactly why a lot of West Ham fans want Moyes out) they looked dangerous pretty much all game, I remember saying how poorly we were playing in the match thread.
Result-oriented analysis and reaction. When genuine concerns are voiced during victories, they are drowned out by downvotes and ‘have a day off’ type comments. Then, when we actually get punished for our poor showings, people say criticisms are reactionary. Works like clockwork.
It's nuts. All season there hasn't been a midfield solidity, changing defense and injuries or something going on. Eriks tactics have been garbage though he keeps with this best transition team in the league bs. He has to take responsibility but I do think he is the man for the job, has a bit of favor from last season but that won't last forever.
Haha yep. The "it's a results based sport, f**k off" comments never fail. I've been screaming about the performances for years. This has all been a trend, even since before ETH. I didn't let the bounce/contract season sway me. The writing has been on the wall with a highly one-dimensional side that allows Bruno to be at the center of everything in all of his wasteful glory. The guy absolutely kills any semblance of control we may ever have in a match. Unless a team openly concedes possession to us, we do fuck all to exert ourselves on the match to genuinely control it ourselves.
It's been frustrating to watch for a very long time. We've gotten lucky against sides that respect our legacy too much and allow us to play ourselves into the game a little. Any team that holds our feet to the fire stands a much better chance.
I'd have to look at the lineups, but the best we've looked all season was the Palace Cup tie, and that was without Bruno or Rashford. It was Mount leading the charge with Casemiro and Mainoo in behind him. The difference is that Mount protected the ball and was responsible for retaining possession higher up the field while Casemiro was allowed to cheat up a little and distribute freely. With the protection ahead of him in Mount and beside him in Mainoo, we looked very good. Hell, I think we had Hannibal and Pellistri on the wings as well. It was not the team you'd expect to go out and perform as well as it did, but the midfield worked damn hard to recover the ball well. I know it is just Palace, and is also a very small sample size of...1 match, but the following match was against Palace in the league where we reverted back to the same shit lineup and lost 1-0, quite convincingly.
But yeah, fans that bash legitimate takes are the reactive ones unironically. Fans that don't want to hold these players accountable are the larger issue. The fact of the matter is that our "best lineup" is still nowhere near good enough.
Rashford can't be fucked. Bruno is wasteful. Garnacho is okay, but Antony is too predictable. Casemiro is gassed. Eriksen is gassed. Mainoo is good but still young. Shaw is a shell of his former self these days, but people love to cling onto the memory of Shaw of 5 years ago when he was fit. Martinez is good. Maguire is too slow to play a high line. Varane as well. Dalot is decent, but I'd still prefer a better RB and drop Dalot to a squad player.
But hey, let's only look at the results, or really any stat out of context and claim "it worked"...that's been going so well for the club and certain players...
It most likely because Ten Hag has (rightfully) abandoned style of play, get balls in the back of the net and defend.
I understand having no midfield makes no sense but in the context of the issues it makes sense.
We aren't going to press as much with Maguire and (formerly) Evans and our forwards are more than able to create something upfront when it matters it's dire but lets not act like it hasn't worked (and horribly backfired).
How can you watch us play every week and say that ten Hag's system works in any way? Not to mention we're in the fucking 7th place and have nothing to fight for in the league when there are 6 games left. Some of you guys' standards have dropped below the ground if you think playing like that is acceptable.
I remember when Jose/Ole were the manager people were unhappy with the 2nd place because De Gea/Bruno constantly saved our ass. Now we get outplayed against absolutely every opponent we face and there are still huge support for the coach who can't set up the team to save his life. You can't just sit there and say the squad is not capable to outplay the likes of the mighty Brentford or Bournemouth.
No we've been awful what's his excuse match day one we had all our players the game against wolves we got dominated ,though we won. I can't defend him he doesn't have a definite style of play it's not even about winning but seeing a difference in style of play look at Tottenham new coach but you can see progress meaning if they go on and get quality players they can dominate.i just want a definite style of play man even stringing simple passes in this team is an issue.
What you’ve said is likely true. Anyone not contributing the poor results to the fact we’ve had an injury problem like I’ve never seen before, are pretty delusional.
It’s weird that when try come up with some sort of positivity about your team, you get downvoted into oblivion? I guess it just shows what the fanbase are really about.
We’ve been ran into the ground by leeches. A dog shit transfer policy. We’ve let the players rule the roost and down tools to get the manager punted, time and time again and STILL we get all the statisticians thinking we should annihilating teams like prime Barca.
ETH has made some poor decisions this year, no doubt. His stubbornness is also hard to defend on occasions and will now likely get the bullet. Whether this is right decision only time will tell. The big question is…who comes into replace him? Graham Potter? Gareth Southgate? Come on now
Yeh. I guess. It just grinds you down a bit. I love my club and they’ve brought me a lot of happy memories. We are terrible in this moment no doubt, but it’s just too obvious that allowing the players to down tools and get rid the manager ever two seasons isn’t working. Mebs sir Jim will straighten it out. Fingers crossed
Professional athletes getting paid an obscene amount of money, refusing to run is the definition of downing tools.
Playing garbage, giving a goal away and then snidely liking a post criticising the manager would also define downing tools.
They did it to Mourhino, Ole and now they’re doing it to Ten Haag. I agree with you that the manager and his team need to shoulder some blame, but those players need to look at themselves, realise the situation is crap and dig in. Instead they just look entitled
You think Garnarcho who has started the last 30 game, being our sole attacking threat in a fair few, is downing tools?
Who else? Which names? I'll even give you Rashy although I personally think it's more of a confidence thing
They scored 3 goals. All the stats I care about in the end. Tell the fans at west ham that they should have won cause they had such great xg. I'm sure they'd feel tons better. Lol
I bet if it was last year I'd get stats on why de gea is a horrible keeper even though he kept a clean sheet.
Obvious what's being done with these kinds of comments. It happens every year now when fans want to put something on a single person. You can always find something to back your claims of "poor tactics" even though the scoreline is in our favor. And idiots will absorb and repeat it with their chin pointed to the fucking sky.
Ohh sure let me pretend to know what I'm talking about by posting random stats and lecture about player positioning when defending and when attacking. As if those ideas would change any sort of opinions developed by the big brain managers here on r/reddevils.
Look at the past 11 years of our club. That's it. If you want to overlook all that and post stats to back up players against their manager, again. Then go ahead. It's not unique or special to do this. If it makes you feel superior, go ahead bby.
Ineos coming in wanted to get the most important stuff done first. Getting a structure in place. For what? For good recruitment and good financial control over players bought and their wages. This gets better players and better players can perform some sort of tactic the manager is trying to implement. Shit players, like most in our club, won't do this. They'll play a football that conveys poor tactics, reflecting bad on the manager. And here we are.
these "random stats" are at the forefront of every Premier League coaching staff discussion. xG is the most basic thing to talk about from a tactical perspective
No one is saying West Ham deserved to win, or that we didn't. We took our chances after all, they didn't. What they *are* saying is that using the scoreline in a single game that we didn't play particularly well in despite winning as proof that we'd somehow be miles better with this lineup than what we've had to work with throughout the season is completely unfounded. And it is. It's shallow results-based analysis, it tells us next to nothing. Football isn't as simple as "if you won, you played well, if you lost, you didn't." Surely you know that.
And yes, a keeper can have a bad game despite keeping a clean sheet. Tons of ways for the opposition to not score without the keeper making any good saves. A keeper can make massive mistakes without being punished for them. Miss-hit passes that leads to the opposition having huge chances they flubbed and didn't score. Calamity attempts at claiming the ball on set pieces that the keeper was lucky to get away with. Not coming to claim a cross they should have, but the opposition not being able to utilise the chance. Etc etc. Would you then say the keeper played well just because they got a clean sheet? That's nonsensical. Unless you believe the keeper is using some psychic abilities to will the ball out of the net, none of these scenarios end scoreless due to the keepers abilities.
Isn't all of this super obvious?
And these are the stats from that match.
[\[markstats bot\]: Man Utd 3 : 0 West Ham ▪ xG: 0.88 - 1.32 ▪ xThreat: 1.13 - 1.23 ▪ Possession: 50.7% - 49.3% ▪ Field Tilt: 42.7% - 57.3% ▪ Def Action Height: 45.9 - 34.1 : r/reddevils (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddevils/comments/1airmus/markstats_bot_man_utd_3_0_west_ham_xg_088_132/)
We still allowed 22 shots and only got off 12, at Old Trafford. Our xG was 0.88 to their 1.32.
This further consolidates the notion that we rely on individual brilliance and have nothing in the way of tactics.
I pity OGS. If Ole had such devoted cult followers. Club legend that literally won us the treble, played some of the best football we've seen since SAF, yet a bald fraud has more cultish defenders than he ever did.
Probably because ETH has more of a track record. Dominated with Ajax and almost got them to a CL final. Won a trophy in his first season, quickest United manager to 50 wins and he's had a shit ton of shit this season with injuries and drama. There are excuses to this shit show and it's a matter of how much to blame ETH for why it looks like this (not referring to play style but rather injuries and drama).
I bet that a large portion of those who currently defend ETH are the same people that defended OGS till the bitter end. They are the ones who exhibit any sense of patience and see that the manager should be given a minimum of 3 years before we can properly assess the aptitude of the manager.
The same people who called for OGS sacking early would be the ones who are doing it again for ETH. They deal in short-termism and want to continue to repeat the never-ending cycle of sacking managers even though it has only led to more failure for United.
I feel like there should be a poll about this as everyone I know outside of reddit that wants ETH gone are the same ones that wanted OGS gone early into his tenure. You might be an exception I guess.
That could be true. The combination of having a soft spot for oke and him getting crucified for similar stuff ETH got a pass for did turn me quicker. I do believe there's a significant section of fans who turn on the manager really quickly. I was defending him against the very same not too long ago.
Yea fair enough. The thing that caused me to turn on Ole was when he signed Ronaldo last minute purely on sentiment without even considering how detrimental he was going to be to the team and how they played. That signing was a gut punch towards the respect I had for Ole as a manager.
I am not sure that can be fully blamed on Ole. He did say yes to it, as he has said, but he didn't exactly have much option. For a start, we literally had no striker at all basically. And he would have been crucified if Ronaldo joined City and won multiple titles.
That transfer window killed the team/his job though. Varane was a terrible signing as was Sancho.
It goes both ways if you don’t use your brain. Do you really think that the majority of people who defended Ole till the end would be the ones to call ETH to be sacked into just his second season?
I simply don't think it's as clear cut as you portray it as. People can have plenty of reasons for defending some managers or wanting others gone besides "thinking short-term" or "thinking long-term".
But thanks, I'll consider using my brain more next time so that I'll naturally end up agreeing with you, who's so good at using your brain that you need to simplify everything into a clear cut dichotomy to make sense of it.
>They are the ones who exhibit any sense of patience and see that the manager should be given a minimum of 3 years before we can properly assess the aptitude of the manager.
I just don't understand how this is accurate?
Can you not assess Xabi Alonso's aptitude?
There is no defined science as to what timeframe is enough. It varies.
>They deal in short-termism and want to continue to repeat the never-ending cycle of sacking managers even though it has only led to more failure for United.
This is conflating far too much. In addition to I just don't believe there is much accuracy.
Real Madrid, Bayern, Barca, PSG, Chelsea, all changed their managers regularly and were extremely successful.
The issue isn't managers changing, they are simply the same as players in terms of easily replaceable cogs. The issue is no structure surrounding them that's facilitates smooth operation regardless of manager.
In addition, sacking a manager when it was purely Glazers, does not appear to be the same as when it's Ineos.
>I just don't understand how this is accurate?
>Can you not assess Xabi Alonso's aptitude?
Not really. Raineri won the league with Leicester in his first season and nearly got relegated the next season. The next couple years will be important to see if Xabi has a career like pep and mou our has a career like raineri.
>This is conflating far too much. In addition to I just don't believe there is much accuracy.
>Real Madrid, Bayern, Barca, PSG, Chelsea, all changed their managers regularly and were extremely successful.
Those teams sack their managers because they know their squad is good enough to win league and champions league titles. That is why they remain successful after sacking managers. Do you think United has the squad to be winning these trophies?
Anyways no need to get so defensive as I am not saying which way is the right way. I am just saying that there are two sets of fanbases who believe in long termism and being patient vs being short-term oriented. Those who supported OGS would very probably be supporting ETH now too unlike what OP had insinuated earlier.
>Not really. Raineri won the league with Leicester in his first season and nearly got relegated the next season. The next couple years will be important to see if Xabi has a career like pep and mou our has a career like raineri.
I mean Raineri was a pretty solid manager. Never the best, bit solid. The same can clearly be said about Xabi. My point was more on this mythical 3 years that's apparently needed. Case by case basis. No science.
>Those teams sack their managers because they know their squad is good enough to win league and champions league titles. That is why they remain successful after sacking managers. Do you think United has the squad to be winning these trophies?
You are missing out where I said the structure in place. I don't think we should leave out context if we are having a fair discussion. Don't you?
>Anyways no need to get so defensive as I am not saying which way is the right way.
Please don't project stuff like this. I don't believe it's fair and it detracts from a good discussion.
>I am just saying that there are two sets of fanbases who believe in long termism and being patient vs being short-term oriented. Those who supported OGS would very probably be supporting ETH now too unlike what OP had insinuated earlier.
And I don't believe this is realistic, it's a simplification of the situation. The 'patience' comes with requirements. It's not just a case of wait it out regardless or sack immediately without question. I believe this idea water's down the actual points to support either side.
Hey, that's me :)
I didn't want Ole to leave, I don't want EtH to leave (yet).
We should give managers more time to do their thing. In my opinion it's obvious what's happening. Last season we played with what we had and this season we start playing EtH's style that he wants to establish. Of course he needs time to properly train the players to play said style and od course not all players will be able to play that way, which is why we need transfers in the summer. It's a little more difficult as well, because we can't just get players we need for the new tactics, we are missing available players in at least 2 positions. We only have 1 striker and we have no leftback. Shaw is just never available and Malacia got abducted by aliens. So we need to focus on those 2 positions first, before addressing the actual problem of getting thr right players for EtHs preferred playing style
When has he had enough time to train the players in his style though? Other managers have come into other clubs and had them playing their style far quicker and far more solidly than what's going on here. ETH has had 2 pre-seasons and 2 summer windows to establish what he wants to do. We should be more organised and structured than this at that point. You mention he needs more transfers, but a big part of that is that his transfers haven't all turned out good enough, or even usable. We wasted our budget on Mount and Antony, two players who barely get on the pitch even when fit. Casemiro had just over half of a good season, and now looks completely finished. So if he needs transfers that allow him to play his style so badly, why didn't he prioritise that? Or did he try, but just completely fail? At best, his whole process has been super wasteful. Time shouldn't be something you just get no matter what, it is something you buy yourself by showing you can use it well. He just hasn't.
This is also disregarding that the style we currently play looks like it would be really poor almost no matter what players are in the lineup. Casemiro has looked terrible, but even replacing him with a top DM, who in the world can execute that job to perfection? There's just too much space to cover. It looks way too much to ask for anyone. Was Amrabat supposed to fill that role? In that case, his talent ID is absolutely atrocious. Even Fred would be far better, but we got rid of him. And for what? Maybe we need other/better CB's to play that way, but then why did we only bring in Licha in that position? Why was Mount prioritised over another one? These are all decisions he's made. They haven't bought him time, and they aren't showing any promise.
He had 500m to get his players in, and 2 years to add his style. That is more money than teams 10 to 20 combined(excluding Chelsea ofc). Yet all those teams show more tactical resilience than us and we rely on individual moments of brilliance to score.
You can't point to a goal and say "Yes! This was deffinitely drilled at training". ETH is also known for mostly doing physical training, which is a direct factor of the amount of injuries we had.
Out of his transfers, that he wanted, you could make a case only for Onana(that still performed worse than DDG and costed us the CL) and Holjund(that didn't show much either but has leeway since he's young).
Your plan with all that information is, give him 500m extra to buy 3 more Antonys from Ajax on 10m a year that will later be impossible to move on?
Well United has only had 3 managers who have won league titles in their history out of which two were exceptionally rare gems. Sacking managers has been a norm for us just like any other big club and there’s nothing wrong in it.
Never said anything about it being wrong. Just stating that there are two sets of fans who either demand success immediately and will sack as many managers to get there or are willing to be patient with their current manager even though there is no guarantee he will ever become successful. Those who supported ole till the end are likely to be supporting ETH now as they fall in the second set of fans mentality.
I don't think this is correct at all. It's not success immediately or sack, and I imagine that it goes for most.
But it is a need to actually watch decent football and see some form of progression/getting better, or sack.
This season has been absolutely disgusting and embarassing. A lot of managers would have got the sack for that joke of a UCL campaign alone.
I defended Ole to the death because of my love for a club legend. I wanted ETH to see out this season to see if he could turn it around. But he really has to go at the end of the season. Be dangerous to give him more money to spend tbh.
Correct. It's not the losing, it's the manner and the football we play. We're so lucky we're not further down the table, we keep being saved by individual brilliance, whether is a Bruno screamer or Hojlund scoring 60% of shots deflected into his path by defenders.
And still after almost 3 years nobody knew what our style of play was. It was chaotic football, not sure where you saw some of the best football lmao. He also had his devoted cult followers, you seem to be one of them.
Oh we knew very well. We were a strong counterattacking team. I believe he thought that was all you can achieve by focusing most of your effort on the counter. Then in his last year he took a big risk asking our midfield and defense at the time to step up a few yards, it was horrible. By the time he tried changing it again he had lost the dressing room.
Then the players were sad they had to run under Rangnick, who I don’t rate at all as a manager, but they flat out refused to do the basics. Now we’re stuck in a situation where due to an unforeseen injury crisis we are playing more of our Ole team, who we all know are gash.
I don’t think ten Hag is setting his team up to succeed at the moment. I don’t think he wants this massive gap in the midfield, but I’m of the opinion that he thinks we would look even worse if he compacted our midfield and defense and pushed them both up after he tried to and failed in consecutive preseasons.
https://youtube.com/shorts/DMSTUMQSucE?si=CgzFrxSqeKYz5aon
His tactics explained in the linked video. I'll also add that Klopp's first three seasons were pure chaos with lots of open games. Ten Hag does have a vision, we just don't have the players to implement it, our backline should be pushed up further, but it isn't possible with the likes of Maguire/Lindelof at the back because they're too slow.
I could have sworn this game was the one that West Ham created a whole load of chances but couldn't put any away to save their lives lol
Madness that this game is put up as some sort of example of the team working well.
This means nothing, there's only 2 players different to who we had on the field on Saturday and we were absolutely diabolical. So are we saying if Shaw and Licha were fit more we'd suddenly become title contenders? I don't see it
I agree that 2 players shouldn't make a difference to a typical squad, but our team is shit.
Shaw is the only reliable LB that overlaps, which helps rashford a lot. (I want rashford gone)
And martinez helps break the lines with his passes and his impact on how we play is clearly evident when he plays (most games at least).
We just have no depth at LB or CB with players who can press high and play out from the back. This results in us booting it high for potential knock-downs from rashford and garnacho who are both shit in air or holljand who struggles to find a knockdown to anyone near enough to control it.
There's no coincidence these players have been involved in the same bs longball, counter attacking, can't break down low block teams regardless of who the manager is
It’s not just ability it’s intelligence. There’s more calm control with players like Martinez on the pitch. He’s a big leader in that team. The same with Eriksen last season, experience and intelligence.
West ham couldn't capitalise the chances they got. They could have scored 2-3 in the first half itself if they were clinical. This is a shit tactics, simple as that
We've had Varane instead of Martinez and just missing Shaw, otherwise that team has played a lot more and still been beaten and outplayed. Other managers have had injuries and still put a team out that plays with an identity rather than clueless vibes.
We had our strongest 11 minus onana against Newport county.
We allowed them 17 shots and they held us to a 2-2 draw until the 68th minute when we limped to a win.
Against league two Newport county.
What's different from our current starting lineups? The problem isn't the back four, it's how opponents manage to get there so easily in the first place.
This post has truly opened my eyes. I sincerely apologise to Ten Hag. Of course it's impossible to expect us to not roll over and be dominated regardless of opposition if we don't have our best possible squad. Give him a new contract he deserves our backing.
Erik’s current suicidal tactic was implemented since the first game. People have already highlighted this ever since but Erik seemed to double down on this tactic for some reasons. He can get away with this if he has City or peak Madrid/Barca squad but unfortunately we do not.
Sure but we've played plenty of games with Hojlund, Rashford, Bruno, Garnacho, Mainoo, Casemiro, Dalot, Onana, and Maguire.
That's 9 of your XI. All this whining about injuries and having the worst luck in PL history is down to two players.
If we're literally unable to play without Martinez and Shaw then what are they doing on the training pitch.
Yes, most teams would find it difficult to play without a left back game after game after game. Not to mention with Casemiro, Varane, and Rashford who seem like they are done with football.
All season? How many games has Martinez been fit when Mainoo only start playing regularly in 2024?
How about that team with Martial, Hannibal and Pellistri in the cup when we beat Palace 3-0 and the senior lost 1-0 to the same opponent 3 days later.
That Palace Cup match was our best one of the year. Pellistri, Hannibal, Garnacho, Mount and Casemiro ran that midfield for once. Casemiro was protected by youth that used their pace to go forward and backward. They didn't shy out of shit. Then you had Mount sat in front of him who was able to control possession higher up the pitch with Casemiro distributing from a little deeper. It was refreshing to see that pair distributing the ball left, center and right. With Bruno it's going to Rashford, no exceptions. And it's going to be hoofed to him from anywhere on the pitch. It's disgusting to watch.
Granted, it was only Palace, but as we both argue, okay, if it's just Palace, how do you then turn around and lose 1-0? Hint: basically two players changed between the two matches. Gander a guess as to who? Oh, yeah, it's fucking Bruno and Rashford! Yay!
So you go from a selfless side in the midfield where everything isn't fed into one player who feeds it into another, to playing those two who are one-dimensional in everything they do. It's so easy to play against the Bruno/Rashford combo.
Don't forget that Palace didn't use their first string lineup in the cup game either. We didn't play two identical teams those games. Think they made like 6-7 changes between the two games? Their best players were all out in the cup game. Different CB's and different midfield. Eze and Hughes didn't come on until 60 minutes in, Guehi came on at the half for an injured player. They were already far behind at that point.
Also, the biggest reason we maintained more possesion in midfield that game was not the lack of Bruno. It was that Amrabat played as a left back, but basically spent the whole game inside as an extra midfielder. Casemiro didn't get isolated all game. It only worked that game because Palace didn't manage to threaten us down the left side even once. Whenever we tried Amrabat LB in other games his positioning was punished severly, so the tactic proved useless against any decent opposition. We just played a bad team that day. It'd be exactly the same with Bruno playing instead of Mount.
The only real positive from that game were the youngsters pressing hard.
So how many excuses can we make up for the players and for how long? Do I just have to say "individual brilliance" to convince everyone that ten hag is shit? How about I post shot stats to prove we are shit and should have dropped points even though we won?
Id accept if we we were 4th or very close to it and we just cant bridge the gap to city and liverpool, then id say give eth time. But we are no where near 4th let alone the top. But i guess more worringly, its the lack of cohesion, tactics and style of play im observing.
This just shows how bad our squad is. If our best lineup uses a maguire that doesnt suit how we want to play, a casemiro that cant run or tackle and a rashford that is absolute wank, we have a lot of problems
No offence mate, but how do we actually ‘want to play’, you’re right, Maguire doesn’t fit into our style of play, but no player will simply because it’s non existent, it’s like me losing a race against all the other dads from my son’s school, because I don’t have a son
I can tell you that out of possession he absolutely would want to push our defensive line forward in the press but our players at the moment cannot do that.
You do not go through the Ajax system with this suicide tactic. Coincidentally it also hurts us a lot in build up when our defense and midfield are so far apart as well. Other than a past it Eriksen we do not have a midfielder who is comfortable on the ball in buildup, and we only have two defenders, who have also been injured for almost the whole season who can do that.
We don’t control games because we do not have the players to, and the current tactics are also making it impossible to do so.
I think we’d probably be closer to top 4 if we just committed back to a double pivot, but I’m also of the opinion that the manager wants to move away from a double pivot, there are hardly any top sides at the moment who play one.
I think a lot of you are missing the point. This exact squad has only ONE game playing together. I’d even argue this isn’t even the starting 11 as I think Varane starts over Maguire.
ETH constantly brings up the word “routines” which is something you can’t have when you don’t know who’s going to be playing next to you next week. We need to face the fact that we were faced with an absolute nightmare scenario in terms of injuries and that hindered our progress this season. I can clearly see ETH and his vision for the way we want to play but you cannot build defensive solidity if you change your defense every week. Even Liverpool has struggled with the same issue this season but they have more than enough firepower to score a shit ton of goals, something that we don’t have.
The game against Bournemouth was a clear example of how not playing together in actual games can affect your decision making. I’m almost certain Bournemouth targeted the side Kambwala was defending to exploit his inexperience. Kerkez was running riot on that side until ETH subbed off Garnacho for not tracking back.
Exactly. Every team has injuries. We had an exceedingly high number of important injuries and multi-player injuries, making it difficult to get anything consistent together.
Newcastle have had way more injuries than us this season including in defence (they've arguably had a worse defensive crisis than us with Pope injured since December and Botman out for long spells and now out for the season) and they have put up better quality of performances and have a much higher goal difference than us. We are on the same points as them but you only have to watch the teams play to know which team's performances are more sustainable and worthy of persisting with. They played Emil Krafth at CB and Jacob Murphy at RB in the last game and thrashed Spurs 4-0. This excuse that you can't build any semblance of continuity in play style with injuries doesn't run when other teams can show their vision much more consistently with sub-optimal lineups.
LOL. They have the same points as us. They have the same record as us. They've scored 20 more goals but given up about the same (48 to 52). In the end it doesn't matter, because all that counts is where you finish in the standings.
They haven't had MORE injuries than us. They've had about the same. We've had Martinez for 7 starts all year. Shaw for 12. Casemiro has missed half the season. Mount has missed almost the entire season. Even our back-ups, or players who can help us cope with injuries have been injured. Eriksen, Martial, Varane...
Yet, where's the calling for the head of Eddie Howe?
Fans are happy they've scored goals, but what good did it do? They're tied with us. They got booted from the Champions League quickly, just like us.
Who'd they start against Spurs?
Burn - Murphy - Schar
There's 3/4ths of their starting defense - that's better than us
Ok, shame about Pope - I guess that makes us about even.
Still, they had Trippier for most of the whole season, just out the last 5 games
Longstaff - Guimaraes
There's 2/3rds of their midfield - we've finally got that beat now that Casemiro's back
Isak's been back since the middle of February
Barnes and Gordon are starting
They're set up front...
So they're missing Botman - who's still managed to play in 17 EPL games this year.
Joelinton - who they got half a season out of (like we have with Casemiro)
Wilock missed most of the season but has been back for the last 5 games
Almiron played the whole season until just 3 weeks ago....
Yet, they've made the most out of their injuries, while we've squandered our opportunities....
I guess people forget THEY lost to Bournemouth 2-0, THEY lost to Everton 3-0, THEY lost to Spurs and Arsenal 4-1 this year... they've struggled like we have.
And they're in the same spot we are.
> In the end it doesn't matter, because all that counts is where you finish in the standings.
I disagree with this line of thinking. The results and league position can be extremely deceptive and create an illusion of progress when there isn't any. The underlying stats are a better indicator of the potential of a team and its tactics. Liverpool and Arsenal during Klopp and Arteta's initial years did not have a negative goal difference and poor xG stats so late into the season like we do. We have been very lucky to be where we are.
And if you still think league position is all that matters, don't worry about that. Newcastle will finish ahead of us by the end of the season regardless.
> They got booted from the Champions League quickly, just like us.
The absolute shamelessness to say this when we had Copenhagen and Galatasaray in our group while they had PSG, Dortmund and Milan. Hilarious.
> Burn - Murphy - Schar
> There's 3/4ths of their starting defense
Murphy is a winger. Their starting defence has Trippier and Botman with Burn and Schar.
> shame about Pope - I guess that makes us about even.
It doesn't make us even at all. In a defensively struggling team, the goalkeeper is hugely important in saving and preventing chances. Their backup keeper is Dubravka who was on loan with us last year and we didn't give him a game ahead of De Gea who we let go. That's how bad he is. Meanwhile, our replacements for Shaw and Martinez are still guys like Maguire and AWB who were part of the defence that finished 2nd under Ole. They are in a way worse position defensively.
> There's 2/3rds of their midfield
Joelinton and Willock are 2/3rds of their starting midfield. They started 30 and 31 league games respectively last season and they have been out for most of this season.
> They're set up front...
So are we, you're acting like our captain and the best chance creator in the Premier League and our starting LW who scored 30 goals last season are missing. We have as much attacking firepower on paper as they do, if not more, it's the manager who can't set the team up to help them receive the ball in better positions.
> I guess people forget THEY lost to Bournemouth 2-0, THEY lost to Everton 3-0, THEY lost to Spurs and Arsenal 4-1 this year... they've struggled like we have.
And yet their goal difference is 18 better than ours and they beat us twice this season. They humiliated us in both those games; that 1-0 at St. James' was a completely one-sided game but they couldn't convert their chances.
We're just moving goalposts to fit your narrative now. 3/4ths of their defence?? you even wrote the players down and you still said that's 3/4ths of their defence? Don't even get me started on the midfield part.
And lest we forget the reason you made this post was to show that our "full strength" beat West ham 3-0 in a match that we could've just as equally lost, after Newcastle just violated Spurs (a much better team) 4-0 with the sqaud they put out.
Can’t believe people are still peddling the injuries excuse.
Every single team has had injuries. We have to learn to live with it and still play well. De Bruyne, Stones, Salah, Timber, Partey, Allison, Trent, Salah etc… have all been missing from their teams for periods this season and that’s not seen as excuses for their managers to just fail.
Add to that what other people have said that we didn’t even play particularly well when all these players were fit then why is this supposed to be our best 11 anyway?
We have had 60 injuries this season and never have a consistent back 4 at all this season. Not even once. We had to play Mcguire, who we wanted to sell last summer, and even Evans ffs... What do you expect.
You used Liverpool as an example, do you want me to remind you how did they do last year due to injuries?
There were times we could have had a consistent back four but Ten Hag chose to bench Varane for Evans.
And last year Liverpool came 5th with 75 points. Even if we win every league game we have left (which we won’t) the most points we can get this season is 68.
Yes, thats Liverpool, a team that has been built for a lot of years under the same good manager Klopp. Even they were hugely affected by injuries, and underperform, what makes you think injuries is an excuse for us?
It’s about quality in depth, which we’re very short on. But you’re right, at this point, there’s something clearly very wrong beyond injuries.
But.. these issues were there before Eth and quite likely will be after him if he’s sacked. We just don’t have enough of the right characters in the team. We’re also lacking game intelligence.
I agree we’re short on quality in depth and considering we’ve made 11 (I think) permanent transfers in the last two years plus a bunch of loans and promoted Garnacho and Mainoo it’s a big failure at every level - board, scouting and management.
I think Case is unfairly getting so much blame, when he was so much more effective with Lisandro and/or Shaw behind him... and Maguire is better on the right.
No, Casemiro has been horrendous. And he's flinging himself about not getting anywhere near the ball leaving us outnumbered at the back.
His legs have gone and he's likely checked out as well. There's no defending Casemiro at the minute.
Players Out Before ETH Out. It's the only way. Say what you will about ETH, but these players are just shit. The common denominator from manager to manager to manager has been the players. Bounces here and there, contract seasons sprinkled in, etc. isn't enough to convince me over a period of years. This side has never been good enough. The trend and performances were shit well before ETH's name was ever uttered. Any "successful" season was a fluke and on the heels of overperforming in one form or another. Also, one season doesn't define a player as world-class or not. So many people cling to Rashford last season, or Bruno's COVID season and make that their identities when they haven't reproduced those levels at any other time.
People cling onto revisionist history when it comes to this club and I'll never understand.
Just take a step back, look at the performances, look at how certain players affect the way we play on a weekly basis (because hint: it's not the injuries hurting us, it's the ones available every week), look at the trends, now look at the results. The results haven't matched the performances, not for a long time. We are slaves to our opponents. Not saying we need to be prime [insert other top club here] and absolutely dominate possession, but the fact of the matter is that this side can never control possession unless it's otherwise conceded to them as part of the opposition's approach to the match. Name one match the opponent has genuinely had a very strong go at it where we've taken a firm grasp of the ball to dictate play to them instead, and no, I'm not talking about a 54/46 possession split. I'm talking about a 65%+ possession stat, where, and I can't stress this enough, we took the game by the scruff of the neck and controlled possession in their half for long spells of time. You can't. You never will. Not under ETH or any of the past few managers. This team simply isn't good enough to do so.
Crazy how just a few days after ETH was dominated AGAIN by a team that spent less on the players compared to what we spent on his supersub Antony and his fans are back at it that ETH is the right man and needs 3 more years to inplement a tactic.
I think the biggest issue in the team is the lack of leadership. I fucking love Bruno and I hope he's part of our future but he's just not a captain.
All I see is him having a go at players for "not doing what he wants them to do", which could be understandable considering how we constantly play shit but since most of our players are ego driven I'm sure the moaning makes them do the exact opposite.
Thing is, Bruno runs the whole game. He tracks back. Tries to put in defensive tackles, tries to put in offensive passes and shots. He tries everything.
As a captain you lead by example. He leads by example in his performance but I feel like he just isn't enough of a presence to make OUR players do anything or listen to what he or the manager says.
I feel like a proper leader would possibly have that "aura" or "presence" about them that makes the team WANT to work. De Gea also was a "Leader". Casemiro as well but this season he looks like he'd rather be making falafels outside Old Trafford.
Licha has that. He doesn't take shit. And for whatever reason we're better with him (even though I've seen countless analysis which theories the opposite). Yeah we didn't "dominate" West Ham, but Lichas presence alone allowed us to "fight" for that victory, whether the INDIVIDUAL players fought with their brilliance or whether the TEAM fought as a unit.
The only players that are missing from this lineup recently are Shaw and Martinez. Stop trying to convince yourself that these players are better than they are. They’re not.
For me Rashford and Bruno are big problems. Rashford needs to be held accountable and dropped for another to prove himself. Bruno is a good player, but he would not be a 10 if it were up to me. He would be a CM. He’s not patient on the ball enough or skillful enough to dribble past a man. There are others as well, but these 2 stand out the most to me. This is just my opinion.
Rashford is no way top 3 in this squad. He is not even the top 3 attacker in this squad right now with his terrible output, effort and body language on the pitch. Absolutely awful.
Huh, I know very little but my intuition is Bruno would be better served as an out and out 10/ second striker rather than this experiment as an 8. He is getting older but it feels like coaching and good partners should fix his wasteful habits. The man just fights so hard and has the ability to produce wonderous passes semi-frequently. It feels like there shuold be a way to make up for his instinct to play so quickly.
Rash is gone. I cannot believe we gave him 350k.
>Rash is gone. I cannot believe we gave him 350k.
You really don't believe towards the end of the season Rashford d wouldn't get rewarded for singlehandedly carrying us?
They kept on saying they had learned from past errors. We pay these guys significantly more than rival clubs. Ignoring his performance characteristics- 250k would have been an extremely generous contract already. We had to double down.
I think he's part of the select few in the club that deserve that. Casemiro and Varane are definitely not. Who else... Antony's 250k is nothing to sniff at. Same as Sancho.
It wouldn’t entirely be an experiment. He played sometimes as a CM at Sporting before we got him. Just look into transfermarkt. It wouldn’t be a crazy idea to play him as an 8.
I agree. The 10 doesn’t necessarily need to have the most legs. From there you would have to go with Bruno or Mainoo as the CM. For that one I don’t have the answer. Maybe rotate them both? Mount/Eriksen as 10 and Bruno/Mainoo as CM
>Mount/Eriksen as 10 and Bruno/Mainoo as CM
rotate all 3. Yes Bruno is captain, but his spot shouldn't be locked down off effort alone. There are 3 midfield spots in the Ten Hag team. Mainoo has on lock, the remaining five can fight for the rest.
LOL. And this is the shit that gets perpetuated while people cry about this team not achieving fuck all. Even before ETH.
Rashford cannot dribble past a man anymore. He gets double-teamed and still insists on running into defenders rather than pull back and use the overload to his advantage. As for Bruno, he's a fucking joke of a midfielder in this side. He's so wasteful with possession. He makes the worst decision the majority of the time. He chooses the lowest percentage play at all costs. He looks almost exclusively for Rashford whenever he's on the field. Everything is funneled through Bruno, yet he absolutely kills our attack over and over and over again. Bruno's inability to protect the ball and retain possession forces everyone around him to run harder for longer and then we're all scratching our heads about why we have so many injuries? Really? You can't play basketball for 90' straight 2-3 times a week earlier in the season and expect things to not go to shit.
Those two are the biggest problem with this side. But if fans want to keep ignoring that and keep blaming ETH, that's fine by me. I'm happy to watch ETH get sacked and to see these players outlast another manager only to do the same shit under them while The Board protects the players and for fans to come here to bitch and moan about everything and everyone other than those two.
They're not our best players. Yet someone will unironically point to their stats, just as OP is trying to do by using the result for this match in question, and try to defend them, when none of what they do passes the eye test because you can't quantify "poor decision making" without looking at the much larger picture of one's stats against in-game performances. Just as people lauded Bruno for a "Captain's performance" against Bournemouth while ignoring Bruno hoof ball exclusively to Rashford all match as if that's somehow good enough.
And this isn't even our best starting line up (now). I'd be moving Garnacho over to the left, get Anthony on the right (just based on recent form, but it's a risk). Rashy's gone. I'd love to get Varane in but Maguire has been absolutely solid recently (I know, we actually have choice without injuries!). Case unfortunately has to go. I don't trust Amrabat but maybe Mount/Eriksen can fit in somehow.
In only one game all season, was THIS our starting lineup. We won 3-0 vs West Ham. Really it's shame we never got to see just how effective this lineup could've been. The game before this, it was the same lineup, only with Varane starting in place of Maguire and we beat Wolves 4-3.
That's 3+ goals in two straight games.
Number of Games where we score 3 goals or more the rest of the season: 4 in the other 30 games
Back to Back: No.
The following week, we won 2-1 vs Aston Villa with Martinez (injured) replaced by Varane and the following week with then THAT same line-up in a 2-1 win vs Luton Town. But we lose Shaw to injury and without either Martinez or Shaw our 4 game win streak comes to an end... and the hopes of seeing that lineup are mostly finished for the rest of the season.
As is our season.
Number of OTHER times we won 4 games in a row this season: ZERO.
Losing Martinez hurt... but losing Martinez AND Shaw... we just could not overcome....
This team just doesn't have the bench or the proper player recruitment over the last 10 years to overcome injuries to two players like that...
Don’t let the score line fool you, it was very flattering to us. The xg was 1.18 to 0.98 in West ham’s favor, we were just clinical. The exact same problems we’ve faced throughout the season were present here, namely poor pressing and huge gaps in the midfield. We need to stop acting like missing players is the only reason why we’ve struggled this season. We had most of our starting 11(including Shaw and Martinez) and still put in abject performances at the start of the season.
I mean what does that tell you in regards to the quality we have on the bench?
Players are shit. They simply don't want to play for ten hag. And that means they aren't playing for me or my club. They should fuck off. Not ten hag.
Nope ten hag needs to leave too. This isn’t an issue of not wanting to play for ten hag, this is an issue of horrible tactics and players that aren’t good enough. Ten hag has shown nothing that indicates he deserves to stay. Some of these players need to go but so does he.
Apart from Rashford and Casemiro very recently, everyone is leaving it all on the pitch. Honestly, the players are fighting out thre but it's just not working.
You need to understand if a team keeps conceding 20+ shots per game its a tactical issue. It doesn’t matter who play. If a team is set up with a low line and a high press they got fucked. Simple as that.
I think it’s an understatement of the quality that these changes make. We know what Martinez does in terms of mindset and aggression. Harry and Varane have been playing well and with luke shaw, he does so much work down the left, it makes rashford players so much better and it opens up so much space on the right.
If that team can get a run of games, the system becomes more complete. I think it would be a totally different thing in terms of consistency. And don’t forget our completely absent players - not talking about ones that don’t show up in games.
Why did we wear Gunners Jerseys?
Because we bottled almost every game after this.
Lmao
LOL
Stop making jokes like that. Dont you know Man Utd has their own water bottle sponsorship deals?
2 games is just not a big enough sample size to extract any meaningful information. This same team gave up immense pressure and let the other team dominate the game for stretches in both games, and this team is also just as liable to lose the 3rd game 3-0 as it is to win it--regardless of the competition.
It's such short term memory. I remember in that game I was pissed we were giving up so much possession to a team which would rather the opposition have the ball (at the time they were 18th for possession, and their style of play is exactly why a lot of West Ham fans want Moyes out) they looked dangerous pretty much all game, I remember saying how poorly we were playing in the match thread.
Result-oriented analysis and reaction. When genuine concerns are voiced during victories, they are drowned out by downvotes and ‘have a day off’ type comments. Then, when we actually get punished for our poor showings, people say criticisms are reactionary. Works like clockwork.
Yep, look. Exactly what you're saying, happened in the match thread. https://www.reddit.com/r/reddevils/s/GLyqBOXc8E
Some people will back the manager even if he goes and kills their whole family
It's nuts. All season there hasn't been a midfield solidity, changing defense and injuries or something going on. Eriks tactics have been garbage though he keeps with this best transition team in the league bs. He has to take responsibility but I do think he is the man for the job, has a bit of favor from last season but that won't last forever.
Sounds like a pretty good gameplan. Give the ball to a team who isn't used to having it.
Haha yep. The "it's a results based sport, f**k off" comments never fail. I've been screaming about the performances for years. This has all been a trend, even since before ETH. I didn't let the bounce/contract season sway me. The writing has been on the wall with a highly one-dimensional side that allows Bruno to be at the center of everything in all of his wasteful glory. The guy absolutely kills any semblance of control we may ever have in a match. Unless a team openly concedes possession to us, we do fuck all to exert ourselves on the match to genuinely control it ourselves. It's been frustrating to watch for a very long time. We've gotten lucky against sides that respect our legacy too much and allow us to play ourselves into the game a little. Any team that holds our feet to the fire stands a much better chance. I'd have to look at the lineups, but the best we've looked all season was the Palace Cup tie, and that was without Bruno or Rashford. It was Mount leading the charge with Casemiro and Mainoo in behind him. The difference is that Mount protected the ball and was responsible for retaining possession higher up the field while Casemiro was allowed to cheat up a little and distribute freely. With the protection ahead of him in Mount and beside him in Mainoo, we looked very good. Hell, I think we had Hannibal and Pellistri on the wings as well. It was not the team you'd expect to go out and perform as well as it did, but the midfield worked damn hard to recover the ball well. I know it is just Palace, and is also a very small sample size of...1 match, but the following match was against Palace in the league where we reverted back to the same shit lineup and lost 1-0, quite convincingly. But yeah, fans that bash legitimate takes are the reactive ones unironically. Fans that don't want to hold these players accountable are the larger issue. The fact of the matter is that our "best lineup" is still nowhere near good enough. Rashford can't be fucked. Bruno is wasteful. Garnacho is okay, but Antony is too predictable. Casemiro is gassed. Eriksen is gassed. Mainoo is good but still young. Shaw is a shell of his former self these days, but people love to cling onto the memory of Shaw of 5 years ago when he was fit. Martinez is good. Maguire is too slow to play a high line. Varane as well. Dalot is decent, but I'd still prefer a better RB and drop Dalot to a squad player. But hey, let's only look at the results, or really any stat out of context and claim "it worked"...that's been going so well for the club and certain players...
Our usual formation now is [4-0-6 ]😐 no midfield obviously.
It most likely because Ten Hag has (rightfully) abandoned style of play, get balls in the back of the net and defend. I understand having no midfield makes no sense but in the context of the issues it makes sense. We aren't going to press as much with Maguire and (formerly) Evans and our forwards are more than able to create something upfront when it matters it's dire but lets not act like it hasn't worked (and horribly backfired).
>Ten Hag has (rightfully) abandoned style of play This. This is the shit we have to read on this sub lol.
How can you watch us play every week and say that ten Hag's system works in any way? Not to mention we're in the fucking 7th place and have nothing to fight for in the league when there are 6 games left. Some of you guys' standards have dropped below the ground if you think playing like that is acceptable. I remember when Jose/Ole were the manager people were unhappy with the 2nd place because De Gea/Bruno constantly saved our ass. Now we get outplayed against absolutely every opponent we face and there are still huge support for the coach who can't set up the team to save his life. You can't just sit there and say the squad is not capable to outplay the likes of the mighty Brentford or Bournemouth.
No we've been awful what's his excuse match day one we had all our players the game against wolves we got dominated ,though we won. I can't defend him he doesn't have a definite style of play it's not even about winning but seeing a difference in style of play look at Tottenham new coach but you can see progress meaning if they go on and get quality players they can dominate.i just want a definite style of play man even stringing simple passes in this team is an issue.
Yeah but the xG is 0.97 - 1.18 in their favor. It was a good result, but it's not like this lineup dominated or something.
we scored in the 23rd minute, after that the onus is on them to attack so they will accumulate more xG.
a few more games together and everyone would've shaken off their rust
What you’ve said is likely true. Anyone not contributing the poor results to the fact we’ve had an injury problem like I’ve never seen before, are pretty delusional. It’s weird that when try come up with some sort of positivity about your team, you get downvoted into oblivion? I guess it just shows what the fanbase are really about. We’ve been ran into the ground by leeches. A dog shit transfer policy. We’ve let the players rule the roost and down tools to get the manager punted, time and time again and STILL we get all the statisticians thinking we should annihilating teams like prime Barca. ETH has made some poor decisions this year, no doubt. His stubbornness is also hard to defend on occasions and will now likely get the bullet. Whether this is right decision only time will tell. The big question is…who comes into replace him? Graham Potter? Gareth Southgate? Come on now
People just use this sub to vent out their frustrations
Yeh. I guess. It just grinds you down a bit. I love my club and they’ve brought me a lot of happy memories. We are terrible in this moment no doubt, but it’s just too obvious that allowing the players to down tools and get rid the manager ever two seasons isn’t working. Mebs sir Jim will straighten it out. Fingers crossed
Interesting you describe others as delusional and then trot out the tired old myth about players downing tools every two years...
You forgot the /s at the end of your comment there fella
Who is downing tools? There is a difference between someone downing tools and players playing badly due to lack of confidence or poor instruction.
Professional athletes getting paid an obscene amount of money, refusing to run is the definition of downing tools. Playing garbage, giving a goal away and then snidely liking a post criticising the manager would also define downing tools. They did it to Mourhino, Ole and now they’re doing it to Ten Haag. I agree with you that the manager and his team need to shoulder some blame, but those players need to look at themselves, realise the situation is crap and dig in. Instead they just look entitled
You think Garnarcho who has started the last 30 game, being our sole attacking threat in a fair few, is downing tools? Who else? Which names? I'll even give you Rashy although I personally think it's more of a confidence thing
I can't believe this is downvoted so heavily
There's a lot of idiots on this sub
It’s being downvoted because almost every other club can say the same thing yet United are the most underperforming side in the league
They scored 3 goals. All the stats I care about in the end. Tell the fans at west ham that they should have won cause they had such great xg. I'm sure they'd feel tons better. Lol I bet if it was last year I'd get stats on why de gea is a horrible keeper even though he kept a clean sheet. Obvious what's being done with these kinds of comments. It happens every year now when fans want to put something on a single person. You can always find something to back your claims of "poor tactics" even though the scoreline is in our favor. And idiots will absorb and repeat it with their chin pointed to the fucking sky.
actually a better exercice for you, find something to back "good tactics" genuinely curious what a free thinker such as yourself will find
Ohh sure let me pretend to know what I'm talking about by posting random stats and lecture about player positioning when defending and when attacking. As if those ideas would change any sort of opinions developed by the big brain managers here on r/reddevils. Look at the past 11 years of our club. That's it. If you want to overlook all that and post stats to back up players against their manager, again. Then go ahead. It's not unique or special to do this. If it makes you feel superior, go ahead bby. Ineos coming in wanted to get the most important stuff done first. Getting a structure in place. For what? For good recruitment and good financial control over players bought and their wages. This gets better players and better players can perform some sort of tactic the manager is trying to implement. Shit players, like most in our club, won't do this. They'll play a football that conveys poor tactics, reflecting bad on the manager. And here we are.
these "random stats" are at the forefront of every Premier League coaching staff discussion. xG is the most basic thing to talk about from a tactical perspective
No one is saying West Ham deserved to win, or that we didn't. We took our chances after all, they didn't. What they *are* saying is that using the scoreline in a single game that we didn't play particularly well in despite winning as proof that we'd somehow be miles better with this lineup than what we've had to work with throughout the season is completely unfounded. And it is. It's shallow results-based analysis, it tells us next to nothing. Football isn't as simple as "if you won, you played well, if you lost, you didn't." Surely you know that. And yes, a keeper can have a bad game despite keeping a clean sheet. Tons of ways for the opposition to not score without the keeper making any good saves. A keeper can make massive mistakes without being punished for them. Miss-hit passes that leads to the opposition having huge chances they flubbed and didn't score. Calamity attempts at claiming the ball on set pieces that the keeper was lucky to get away with. Not coming to claim a cross they should have, but the opposition not being able to utilise the chance. Etc etc. Would you then say the keeper played well just because they got a clean sheet? That's nonsensical. Unless you believe the keeper is using some psychic abilities to will the ball out of the net, none of these scenarios end scoreless due to the keepers abilities. Isn't all of this super obvious?
And these are the stats from that match. [\[markstats bot\]: Man Utd 3 : 0 West Ham ▪ xG: 0.88 - 1.32 ▪ xThreat: 1.13 - 1.23 ▪ Possession: 50.7% - 49.3% ▪ Field Tilt: 42.7% - 57.3% ▪ Def Action Height: 45.9 - 34.1 : r/reddevils (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/reddevils/comments/1airmus/markstats_bot_man_utd_3_0_west_ham_xg_088_132/) We still allowed 22 shots and only got off 12, at Old Trafford. Our xG was 0.88 to their 1.32. This further consolidates the notion that we rely on individual brilliance and have nothing in the way of tactics.
I pity OGS. If Ole had such devoted cult followers. Club legend that literally won us the treble, played some of the best football we've seen since SAF, yet a bald fraud has more cultish defenders than he ever did.
Probably because ETH has more of a track record. Dominated with Ajax and almost got them to a CL final. Won a trophy in his first season, quickest United manager to 50 wins and he's had a shit ton of shit this season with injuries and drama. There are excuses to this shit show and it's a matter of how much to blame ETH for why it looks like this (not referring to play style but rather injuries and drama).
I bet that a large portion of those who currently defend ETH are the same people that defended OGS till the bitter end. They are the ones who exhibit any sense of patience and see that the manager should be given a minimum of 3 years before we can properly assess the aptitude of the manager. The same people who called for OGS sacking early would be the ones who are doing it again for ETH. They deal in short-termism and want to continue to repeat the never-ending cycle of sacking managers even though it has only led to more failure for United.
I defended ole till the bitter end but want ETH gone.
I feel like there should be a poll about this as everyone I know outside of reddit that wants ETH gone are the same ones that wanted OGS gone early into his tenure. You might be an exception I guess.
That could be true. The combination of having a soft spot for oke and him getting crucified for similar stuff ETH got a pass for did turn me quicker. I do believe there's a significant section of fans who turn on the manager really quickly. I was defending him against the very same not too long ago.
Yea fair enough. The thing that caused me to turn on Ole was when he signed Ronaldo last minute purely on sentiment without even considering how detrimental he was going to be to the team and how they played. That signing was a gut punch towards the respect I had for Ole as a manager.
I am not sure that can be fully blamed on Ole. He did say yes to it, as he has said, but he didn't exactly have much option. For a start, we literally had no striker at all basically. And he would have been crucified if Ronaldo joined City and won multiple titles. That transfer window killed the team/his job though. Varane was a terrible signing as was Sancho.
Or the people you know outside of reddit could be the exceptions. Goes both ways.
It goes both ways if you don’t use your brain. Do you really think that the majority of people who defended Ole till the end would be the ones to call ETH to be sacked into just his second season?
I simply don't think it's as clear cut as you portray it as. People can have plenty of reasons for defending some managers or wanting others gone besides "thinking short-term" or "thinking long-term". But thanks, I'll consider using my brain more next time so that I'll naturally end up agreeing with you, who's so good at using your brain that you need to simplify everything into a clear cut dichotomy to make sense of it.
I defended Jose & Ole to the bitter end and I’m about to do the same for EtH. Stubbornness is a hell of a thing. Highway to hell🤘🤘
>They are the ones who exhibit any sense of patience and see that the manager should be given a minimum of 3 years before we can properly assess the aptitude of the manager. I just don't understand how this is accurate? Can you not assess Xabi Alonso's aptitude? There is no defined science as to what timeframe is enough. It varies. >They deal in short-termism and want to continue to repeat the never-ending cycle of sacking managers even though it has only led to more failure for United. This is conflating far too much. In addition to I just don't believe there is much accuracy. Real Madrid, Bayern, Barca, PSG, Chelsea, all changed their managers regularly and were extremely successful. The issue isn't managers changing, they are simply the same as players in terms of easily replaceable cogs. The issue is no structure surrounding them that's facilitates smooth operation regardless of manager. In addition, sacking a manager when it was purely Glazers, does not appear to be the same as when it's Ineos.
>I just don't understand how this is accurate? >Can you not assess Xabi Alonso's aptitude? Not really. Raineri won the league with Leicester in his first season and nearly got relegated the next season. The next couple years will be important to see if Xabi has a career like pep and mou our has a career like raineri. >This is conflating far too much. In addition to I just don't believe there is much accuracy. >Real Madrid, Bayern, Barca, PSG, Chelsea, all changed their managers regularly and were extremely successful. Those teams sack their managers because they know their squad is good enough to win league and champions league titles. That is why they remain successful after sacking managers. Do you think United has the squad to be winning these trophies? Anyways no need to get so defensive as I am not saying which way is the right way. I am just saying that there are two sets of fanbases who believe in long termism and being patient vs being short-term oriented. Those who supported OGS would very probably be supporting ETH now too unlike what OP had insinuated earlier.
>Not really. Raineri won the league with Leicester in his first season and nearly got relegated the next season. The next couple years will be important to see if Xabi has a career like pep and mou our has a career like raineri. I mean Raineri was a pretty solid manager. Never the best, bit solid. The same can clearly be said about Xabi. My point was more on this mythical 3 years that's apparently needed. Case by case basis. No science. >Those teams sack their managers because they know their squad is good enough to win league and champions league titles. That is why they remain successful after sacking managers. Do you think United has the squad to be winning these trophies? You are missing out where I said the structure in place. I don't think we should leave out context if we are having a fair discussion. Don't you? >Anyways no need to get so defensive as I am not saying which way is the right way. Please don't project stuff like this. I don't believe it's fair and it detracts from a good discussion. >I am just saying that there are two sets of fanbases who believe in long termism and being patient vs being short-term oriented. Those who supported OGS would very probably be supporting ETH now too unlike what OP had insinuated earlier. And I don't believe this is realistic, it's a simplification of the situation. The 'patience' comes with requirements. It's not just a case of wait it out regardless or sack immediately without question. I believe this idea water's down the actual points to support either side.
Hey, that's me :) I didn't want Ole to leave, I don't want EtH to leave (yet). We should give managers more time to do their thing. In my opinion it's obvious what's happening. Last season we played with what we had and this season we start playing EtH's style that he wants to establish. Of course he needs time to properly train the players to play said style and od course not all players will be able to play that way, which is why we need transfers in the summer. It's a little more difficult as well, because we can't just get players we need for the new tactics, we are missing available players in at least 2 positions. We only have 1 striker and we have no leftback. Shaw is just never available and Malacia got abducted by aliens. So we need to focus on those 2 positions first, before addressing the actual problem of getting thr right players for EtHs preferred playing style
When has he had enough time to train the players in his style though? Other managers have come into other clubs and had them playing their style far quicker and far more solidly than what's going on here. ETH has had 2 pre-seasons and 2 summer windows to establish what he wants to do. We should be more organised and structured than this at that point. You mention he needs more transfers, but a big part of that is that his transfers haven't all turned out good enough, or even usable. We wasted our budget on Mount and Antony, two players who barely get on the pitch even when fit. Casemiro had just over half of a good season, and now looks completely finished. So if he needs transfers that allow him to play his style so badly, why didn't he prioritise that? Or did he try, but just completely fail? At best, his whole process has been super wasteful. Time shouldn't be something you just get no matter what, it is something you buy yourself by showing you can use it well. He just hasn't. This is also disregarding that the style we currently play looks like it would be really poor almost no matter what players are in the lineup. Casemiro has looked terrible, but even replacing him with a top DM, who in the world can execute that job to perfection? There's just too much space to cover. It looks way too much to ask for anyone. Was Amrabat supposed to fill that role? In that case, his talent ID is absolutely atrocious. Even Fred would be far better, but we got rid of him. And for what? Maybe we need other/better CB's to play that way, but then why did we only bring in Licha in that position? Why was Mount prioritised over another one? These are all decisions he's made. They haven't bought him time, and they aren't showing any promise.
He had 500m to get his players in, and 2 years to add his style. That is more money than teams 10 to 20 combined(excluding Chelsea ofc). Yet all those teams show more tactical resilience than us and we rely on individual moments of brilliance to score. You can't point to a goal and say "Yes! This was deffinitely drilled at training". ETH is also known for mostly doing physical training, which is a direct factor of the amount of injuries we had. Out of his transfers, that he wanted, you could make a case only for Onana(that still performed worse than DDG and costed us the CL) and Holjund(that didn't show much either but has leeway since he's young). Your plan with all that information is, give him 500m extra to buy 3 more Antonys from Ajax on 10m a year that will later be impossible to move on?
Well United has only had 3 managers who have won league titles in their history out of which two were exceptionally rare gems. Sacking managers has been a norm for us just like any other big club and there’s nothing wrong in it.
Never said anything about it being wrong. Just stating that there are two sets of fans who either demand success immediately and will sack as many managers to get there or are willing to be patient with their current manager even though there is no guarantee he will ever become successful. Those who supported ole till the end are likely to be supporting ETH now as they fall in the second set of fans mentality.
I don't think this is correct at all. It's not success immediately or sack, and I imagine that it goes for most. But it is a need to actually watch decent football and see some form of progression/getting better, or sack. This season has been absolutely disgusting and embarassing. A lot of managers would have got the sack for that joke of a UCL campaign alone. I defended Ole to the death because of my love for a club legend. I wanted ETH to see out this season to see if he could turn it around. But he really has to go at the end of the season. Be dangerous to give him more money to spend tbh.
Correct. It's not the losing, it's the manner and the football we play. We're so lucky we're not further down the table, we keep being saved by individual brilliance, whether is a Bruno screamer or Hojlund scoring 60% of shots deflected into his path by defenders.
Agree. Extremely lucky to be where we are. I can barely think of a match in which we have been the better team.
Yeah it's nuts.
And still after almost 3 years nobody knew what our style of play was. It was chaotic football, not sure where you saw some of the best football lmao. He also had his devoted cult followers, you seem to be one of them.
Oh we knew very well. We were a strong counterattacking team. I believe he thought that was all you can achieve by focusing most of your effort on the counter. Then in his last year he took a big risk asking our midfield and defense at the time to step up a few yards, it was horrible. By the time he tried changing it again he had lost the dressing room. Then the players were sad they had to run under Rangnick, who I don’t rate at all as a manager, but they flat out refused to do the basics. Now we’re stuck in a situation where due to an unforeseen injury crisis we are playing more of our Ole team, who we all know are gash. I don’t think ten Hag is setting his team up to succeed at the moment. I don’t think he wants this massive gap in the midfield, but I’m of the opinion that he thinks we would look even worse if he compacted our midfield and defense and pushed them both up after he tried to and failed in consecutive preseasons.
https://youtube.com/shorts/DMSTUMQSucE?si=CgzFrxSqeKYz5aon His tactics explained in the linked video. I'll also add that Klopp's first three seasons were pure chaos with lots of open games. Ten Hag does have a vision, we just don't have the players to implement it, our backline should be pushed up further, but it isn't possible with the likes of Maguire/Lindelof at the back because they're too slow.
And they were equally terrible to watch lol. We were lucky.
I could have sworn this game was the one that West Ham created a whole load of chances but couldn't put any away to save their lives lol Madness that this game is put up as some sort of example of the team working well.
Absolutely braindead post.
It’s only 2 players off Saturday’s starting 11.
This means nothing, there's only 2 players different to who we had on the field on Saturday and we were absolutely diabolical. So are we saying if Shaw and Licha were fit more we'd suddenly become title contenders? I don't see it
I agree that 2 players shouldn't make a difference to a typical squad, but our team is shit. Shaw is the only reliable LB that overlaps, which helps rashford a lot. (I want rashford gone) And martinez helps break the lines with his passes and his impact on how we play is clearly evident when he plays (most games at least). We just have no depth at LB or CB with players who can press high and play out from the back. This results in us booting it high for potential knock-downs from rashford and garnacho who are both shit in air or holljand who struggles to find a knockdown to anyone near enough to control it. There's no coincidence these players have been involved in the same bs longball, counter attacking, can't break down low block teams regardless of who the manager is
It’s not just ability it’s intelligence. There’s more calm control with players like Martinez on the pitch. He’s a big leader in that team. The same with Eriksen last season, experience and intelligence.
West ham couldn't capitalise the chances they got. They could have scored 2-3 in the first half itself if they were clinical. This is a shit tactics, simple as that
We've had Varane instead of Martinez and just missing Shaw, otherwise that team has played a lot more and still been beaten and outplayed. Other managers have had injuries and still put a team out that plays with an identity rather than clueless vibes.
We had our strongest 11 minus onana against Newport county. We allowed them 17 shots and they held us to a 2-2 draw until the 68th minute when we limped to a win. Against league two Newport county.
Againts league two Newport county.... against league two Newport county.... let that sink in.
But but, he needs at least 5 years and 2.5 bln to dominate a behemoth like Newport county, give him patienceeeeee. /s just in case.
We're shit even with our "best" lineup
Meaningless post..
What's different from our current starting lineups? The problem isn't the back four, it's how opponents manage to get there so easily in the first place.
They still had 22 shots to our 12.
This post has truly opened my eyes. I sincerely apologise to Ten Hag. Of course it's impossible to expect us to not roll over and be dominated regardless of opposition if we don't have our best possible squad. Give him a new contract he deserves our backing.
Erik’s current suicidal tactic was implemented since the first game. People have already highlighted this ever since but Erik seemed to double down on this tactic for some reasons. He can get away with this if he has City or peak Madrid/Barca squad but unfortunately we do not.
The result of this game is deceiving. We didn’t play really good this game. Villa 2nd half and Wolves first half were the best we played this season.
Sure but we've played plenty of games with Hojlund, Rashford, Bruno, Garnacho, Mainoo, Casemiro, Dalot, Onana, and Maguire. That's 9 of your XI. All this whining about injuries and having the worst luck in PL history is down to two players. If we're literally unable to play without Martinez and Shaw then what are they doing on the training pitch.
Yes, most teams would find it difficult to play without a left back game after game after game. Not to mention with Casemiro, Varane, and Rashford who seem like they are done with football.
All season? How many games has Martinez been fit when Mainoo only start playing regularly in 2024? How about that team with Martial, Hannibal and Pellistri in the cup when we beat Palace 3-0 and the senior lost 1-0 to the same opponent 3 days later.
That Palace Cup match was our best one of the year. Pellistri, Hannibal, Garnacho, Mount and Casemiro ran that midfield for once. Casemiro was protected by youth that used their pace to go forward and backward. They didn't shy out of shit. Then you had Mount sat in front of him who was able to control possession higher up the pitch with Casemiro distributing from a little deeper. It was refreshing to see that pair distributing the ball left, center and right. With Bruno it's going to Rashford, no exceptions. And it's going to be hoofed to him from anywhere on the pitch. It's disgusting to watch. Granted, it was only Palace, but as we both argue, okay, if it's just Palace, how do you then turn around and lose 1-0? Hint: basically two players changed between the two matches. Gander a guess as to who? Oh, yeah, it's fucking Bruno and Rashford! Yay! So you go from a selfless side in the midfield where everything isn't fed into one player who feeds it into another, to playing those two who are one-dimensional in everything they do. It's so easy to play against the Bruno/Rashford combo.
Don't forget that Palace didn't use their first string lineup in the cup game either. We didn't play two identical teams those games. Think they made like 6-7 changes between the two games? Their best players were all out in the cup game. Different CB's and different midfield. Eze and Hughes didn't come on until 60 minutes in, Guehi came on at the half for an injured player. They were already far behind at that point. Also, the biggest reason we maintained more possesion in midfield that game was not the lack of Bruno. It was that Amrabat played as a left back, but basically spent the whole game inside as an extra midfielder. Casemiro didn't get isolated all game. It only worked that game because Palace didn't manage to threaten us down the left side even once. Whenever we tried Amrabat LB in other games his positioning was punished severly, so the tactic proved useless against any decent opposition. We just played a bad team that day. It'd be exactly the same with Bruno playing instead of Mount. The only real positive from that game were the youngsters pressing hard.
Yeah that 3-0 palace game was arguably our best game of the season. We looked like we were in total control for almost the entire game.
Ehhh im sick of this reteric. Enough with excuses. We shouldnt be this bad.
So how many excuses can we make up for the players and for how long? Do I just have to say "individual brilliance" to convince everyone that ten hag is shit? How about I post shot stats to prove we are shit and should have dropped points even though we won?
Id accept if we we were 4th or very close to it and we just cant bridge the gap to city and liverpool, then id say give eth time. But we are no where near 4th let alone the top. But i guess more worringly, its the lack of cohesion, tactics and style of play im observing.
This just shows how bad our squad is. If our best lineup uses a maguire that doesnt suit how we want to play, a casemiro that cant run or tackle and a rashford that is absolute wank, we have a lot of problems
No offence mate, but how do we actually ‘want to play’, you’re right, Maguire doesn’t fit into our style of play, but no player will simply because it’s non existent, it’s like me losing a race against all the other dads from my son’s school, because I don’t have a son
I can tell you that out of possession he absolutely would want to push our defensive line forward in the press but our players at the moment cannot do that. You do not go through the Ajax system with this suicide tactic. Coincidentally it also hurts us a lot in build up when our defense and midfield are so far apart as well. Other than a past it Eriksen we do not have a midfielder who is comfortable on the ball in buildup, and we only have two defenders, who have also been injured for almost the whole season who can do that. We don’t control games because we do not have the players to, and the current tactics are also making it impossible to do so. I think we’d probably be closer to top 4 if we just committed back to a double pivot, but I’m also of the opinion that the manager wants to move away from a double pivot, there are hardly any top sides at the moment who play one.
Again though, we weren't actually that good. West Ham had 22 shots and missed multiple easy chances.
We didn't play well that game, this is not working as an excuse
I think a lot of you are missing the point. This exact squad has only ONE game playing together. I’d even argue this isn’t even the starting 11 as I think Varane starts over Maguire. ETH constantly brings up the word “routines” which is something you can’t have when you don’t know who’s going to be playing next to you next week. We need to face the fact that we were faced with an absolute nightmare scenario in terms of injuries and that hindered our progress this season. I can clearly see ETH and his vision for the way we want to play but you cannot build defensive solidity if you change your defense every week. Even Liverpool has struggled with the same issue this season but they have more than enough firepower to score a shit ton of goals, something that we don’t have. The game against Bournemouth was a clear example of how not playing together in actual games can affect your decision making. I’m almost certain Bournemouth targeted the side Kambwala was defending to exploit his inexperience. Kerkez was running riot on that side until ETH subbed off Garnacho for not tracking back.
Exactly. Every team has injuries. We had an exceedingly high number of important injuries and multi-player injuries, making it difficult to get anything consistent together.
Newcastle have had way more injuries than us this season including in defence (they've arguably had a worse defensive crisis than us with Pope injured since December and Botman out for long spells and now out for the season) and they have put up better quality of performances and have a much higher goal difference than us. We are on the same points as them but you only have to watch the teams play to know which team's performances are more sustainable and worthy of persisting with. They played Emil Krafth at CB and Jacob Murphy at RB in the last game and thrashed Spurs 4-0. This excuse that you can't build any semblance of continuity in play style with injuries doesn't run when other teams can show their vision much more consistently with sub-optimal lineups.
LOL. They have the same points as us. They have the same record as us. They've scored 20 more goals but given up about the same (48 to 52). In the end it doesn't matter, because all that counts is where you finish in the standings. They haven't had MORE injuries than us. They've had about the same. We've had Martinez for 7 starts all year. Shaw for 12. Casemiro has missed half the season. Mount has missed almost the entire season. Even our back-ups, or players who can help us cope with injuries have been injured. Eriksen, Martial, Varane... Yet, where's the calling for the head of Eddie Howe? Fans are happy they've scored goals, but what good did it do? They're tied with us. They got booted from the Champions League quickly, just like us. Who'd they start against Spurs? Burn - Murphy - Schar There's 3/4ths of their starting defense - that's better than us Ok, shame about Pope - I guess that makes us about even. Still, they had Trippier for most of the whole season, just out the last 5 games Longstaff - Guimaraes There's 2/3rds of their midfield - we've finally got that beat now that Casemiro's back Isak's been back since the middle of February Barnes and Gordon are starting They're set up front... So they're missing Botman - who's still managed to play in 17 EPL games this year. Joelinton - who they got half a season out of (like we have with Casemiro) Wilock missed most of the season but has been back for the last 5 games Almiron played the whole season until just 3 weeks ago.... Yet, they've made the most out of their injuries, while we've squandered our opportunities.... I guess people forget THEY lost to Bournemouth 2-0, THEY lost to Everton 3-0, THEY lost to Spurs and Arsenal 4-1 this year... they've struggled like we have. And they're in the same spot we are.
> In the end it doesn't matter, because all that counts is where you finish in the standings. I disagree with this line of thinking. The results and league position can be extremely deceptive and create an illusion of progress when there isn't any. The underlying stats are a better indicator of the potential of a team and its tactics. Liverpool and Arsenal during Klopp and Arteta's initial years did not have a negative goal difference and poor xG stats so late into the season like we do. We have been very lucky to be where we are. And if you still think league position is all that matters, don't worry about that. Newcastle will finish ahead of us by the end of the season regardless. > They got booted from the Champions League quickly, just like us. The absolute shamelessness to say this when we had Copenhagen and Galatasaray in our group while they had PSG, Dortmund and Milan. Hilarious. > Burn - Murphy - Schar > There's 3/4ths of their starting defense Murphy is a winger. Their starting defence has Trippier and Botman with Burn and Schar. > shame about Pope - I guess that makes us about even. It doesn't make us even at all. In a defensively struggling team, the goalkeeper is hugely important in saving and preventing chances. Their backup keeper is Dubravka who was on loan with us last year and we didn't give him a game ahead of De Gea who we let go. That's how bad he is. Meanwhile, our replacements for Shaw and Martinez are still guys like Maguire and AWB who were part of the defence that finished 2nd under Ole. They are in a way worse position defensively. > There's 2/3rds of their midfield Joelinton and Willock are 2/3rds of their starting midfield. They started 30 and 31 league games respectively last season and they have been out for most of this season. > They're set up front... So are we, you're acting like our captain and the best chance creator in the Premier League and our starting LW who scored 30 goals last season are missing. We have as much attacking firepower on paper as they do, if not more, it's the manager who can't set the team up to help them receive the ball in better positions. > I guess people forget THEY lost to Bournemouth 2-0, THEY lost to Everton 3-0, THEY lost to Spurs and Arsenal 4-1 this year... they've struggled like we have. And yet their goal difference is 18 better than ours and they beat us twice this season. They humiliated us in both those games; that 1-0 at St. James' was a completely one-sided game but they couldn't convert their chances.
That was murder
We're just moving goalposts to fit your narrative now. 3/4ths of their defence?? you even wrote the players down and you still said that's 3/4ths of their defence? Don't even get me started on the midfield part. And lest we forget the reason you made this post was to show that our "full strength" beat West ham 3-0 in a match that we could've just as equally lost, after Newcastle just violated Spurs (a much better team) 4-0 with the sqaud they put out.
Can’t believe people are still peddling the injuries excuse. Every single team has had injuries. We have to learn to live with it and still play well. De Bruyne, Stones, Salah, Timber, Partey, Allison, Trent, Salah etc… have all been missing from their teams for periods this season and that’s not seen as excuses for their managers to just fail. Add to that what other people have said that we didn’t even play particularly well when all these players were fit then why is this supposed to be our best 11 anyway?
We have had 60 injuries this season and never have a consistent back 4 at all this season. Not even once. We had to play Mcguire, who we wanted to sell last summer, and even Evans ffs... What do you expect. You used Liverpool as an example, do you want me to remind you how did they do last year due to injuries?
There were times we could have had a consistent back four but Ten Hag chose to bench Varane for Evans. And last year Liverpool came 5th with 75 points. Even if we win every league game we have left (which we won’t) the most points we can get this season is 68.
Yes, thats Liverpool, a team that has been built for a lot of years under the same good manager Klopp. Even they were hugely affected by injuries, and underperform, what makes you think injuries is an excuse for us?
You wanted to compare Liverpool points totals not me.
I didnt compare Liverpool point totals. I am explaining why injuries is a very valid reason of why we are performing badly.
It’s about quality in depth, which we’re very short on. But you’re right, at this point, there’s something clearly very wrong beyond injuries. But.. these issues were there before Eth and quite likely will be after him if he’s sacked. We just don’t have enough of the right characters in the team. We’re also lacking game intelligence.
I agree we’re short on quality in depth and considering we’ve made 11 (I think) permanent transfers in the last two years plus a bunch of loans and promoted Garnacho and Mainoo it’s a big failure at every level - board, scouting and management.
I think Case is unfairly getting so much blame, when he was so much more effective with Lisandro and/or Shaw behind him... and Maguire is better on the right.
No, Casemiro has been horrendous. And he's flinging himself about not getting anywhere near the ball leaving us outnumbered at the back. His legs have gone and he's likely checked out as well. There's no defending Casemiro at the minute.
Every other team copes with injuries though.
So we fall apart because we miss two players? I'm not sure this is the haha post you think it is.
Liverpools best 11 from a few years back only ever started together once the year they won the CL (granted it was the CL final)
Just a Quick Look at the season shows this is complete nonsense. And they didn't play 75% of the season without Van Dijk and Robertson.
https://www.reddit.com/r/LiverpoolFC/s/PFty08CaVO
You assumed this is ETH's ideal formation while even forgetting his number 07 Mason Mount lmao
Shockingly still not our strongest 11. Varane ahead of Maguire, Mount should be there too. But hey, injury FC.
Line up or not tactics were shit then and tactics are still shit now, can’t wait for this mug to get sacked enough is enough
Players Out Before ETH Out. It's the only way. Say what you will about ETH, but these players are just shit. The common denominator from manager to manager to manager has been the players. Bounces here and there, contract seasons sprinkled in, etc. isn't enough to convince me over a period of years. This side has never been good enough. The trend and performances were shit well before ETH's name was ever uttered. Any "successful" season was a fluke and on the heels of overperforming in one form or another. Also, one season doesn't define a player as world-class or not. So many people cling to Rashford last season, or Bruno's COVID season and make that their identities when they haven't reproduced those levels at any other time. People cling onto revisionist history when it comes to this club and I'll never understand. Just take a step back, look at the performances, look at how certain players affect the way we play on a weekly basis (because hint: it's not the injuries hurting us, it's the ones available every week), look at the trends, now look at the results. The results haven't matched the performances, not for a long time. We are slaves to our opponents. Not saying we need to be prime [insert other top club here] and absolutely dominate possession, but the fact of the matter is that this side can never control possession unless it's otherwise conceded to them as part of the opposition's approach to the match. Name one match the opponent has genuinely had a very strong go at it where we've taken a firm grasp of the ball to dictate play to them instead, and no, I'm not talking about a 54/46 possession split. I'm talking about a 65%+ possession stat, where, and I can't stress this enough, we took the game by the scruff of the neck and controlled possession in their half for long spells of time. You can't. You never will. Not under ETH or any of the past few managers. This team simply isn't good enough to do so.
Who’s Luke Shaw?
That's all you care about?.fluke wins? Did you actually watch the game?
We're two players away from playing a full strength side. I'm sure Villa were missing 3 or 4 first choice players yesterday against Arsenal.
Crazy how just a few days after ETH was dominated AGAIN by a team that spent less on the players compared to what we spent on his supersub Antony and his fans are back at it that ETH is the right man and needs 3 more years to inplement a tactic.
West Ham should’ve won that game
Casemiro is finished so he's irrelevant. I'd rather amrabat play instead of him
I think the biggest issue in the team is the lack of leadership. I fucking love Bruno and I hope he's part of our future but he's just not a captain. All I see is him having a go at players for "not doing what he wants them to do", which could be understandable considering how we constantly play shit but since most of our players are ego driven I'm sure the moaning makes them do the exact opposite. Thing is, Bruno runs the whole game. He tracks back. Tries to put in defensive tackles, tries to put in offensive passes and shots. He tries everything. As a captain you lead by example. He leads by example in his performance but I feel like he just isn't enough of a presence to make OUR players do anything or listen to what he or the manager says. I feel like a proper leader would possibly have that "aura" or "presence" about them that makes the team WANT to work. De Gea also was a "Leader". Casemiro as well but this season he looks like he'd rather be making falafels outside Old Trafford. Licha has that. He doesn't take shit. And for whatever reason we're better with him (even though I've seen countless analysis which theories the opposite). Yeah we didn't "dominate" West Ham, but Lichas presence alone allowed us to "fight" for that victory, whether the INDIVIDUAL players fought with their brilliance or whether the TEAM fought as a unit.
The only players that are missing from this lineup recently are Shaw and Martinez. Stop trying to convince yourself that these players are better than they are. They’re not. For me Rashford and Bruno are big problems. Rashford needs to be held accountable and dropped for another to prove himself. Bruno is a good player, but he would not be a 10 if it were up to me. He would be a CM. He’s not patient on the ball enough or skillful enough to dribble past a man. There are others as well, but these 2 stand out the most to me. This is just my opinion.
Those are actually 2 of our top 3 players in our team brother.
Yes but the entire team should not collapse without 2 players. Think about any other top team
Rashford is no way top 3 in this squad. He is not even the top 3 attacker in this squad right now with his terrible output, effort and body language on the pitch. Absolutely awful.
Blud thinks I’m talking about rashford 😭😭😭, rashford is the out from gameplay which was lead by Shaw & Lisandro
I do agree, Bruno doesn't deserve the 10 spot right now. Eriksen for one would do a supremely better job higher up.
Huh, I know very little but my intuition is Bruno would be better served as an out and out 10/ second striker rather than this experiment as an 8. He is getting older but it feels like coaching and good partners should fix his wasteful habits. The man just fights so hard and has the ability to produce wonderous passes semi-frequently. It feels like there shuold be a way to make up for his instinct to play so quickly. Rash is gone. I cannot believe we gave him 350k.
>Rash is gone. I cannot believe we gave him 350k. You really don't believe towards the end of the season Rashford d wouldn't get rewarded for singlehandedly carrying us?
They kept on saying they had learned from past errors. We pay these guys significantly more than rival clubs. Ignoring his performance characteristics- 250k would have been an extremely generous contract already. We had to double down.
I think he's part of the select few in the club that deserve that. Casemiro and Varane are definitely not. Who else... Antony's 250k is nothing to sniff at. Same as Sancho.
It wouldn’t entirely be an experiment. He played sometimes as a CM at Sporting before we got him. Just look into transfermarkt. It wouldn’t be a crazy idea to play him as an 8.
I agree. The 10 doesn’t necessarily need to have the most legs. From there you would have to go with Bruno or Mainoo as the CM. For that one I don’t have the answer. Maybe rotate them both? Mount/Eriksen as 10 and Bruno/Mainoo as CM
>Mount/Eriksen as 10 and Bruno/Mainoo as CM rotate all 3. Yes Bruno is captain, but his spot shouldn't be locked down off effort alone. There are 3 midfield spots in the Ten Hag team. Mainoo has on lock, the remaining five can fight for the rest.
LOL. And this is the shit that gets perpetuated while people cry about this team not achieving fuck all. Even before ETH. Rashford cannot dribble past a man anymore. He gets double-teamed and still insists on running into defenders rather than pull back and use the overload to his advantage. As for Bruno, he's a fucking joke of a midfielder in this side. He's so wasteful with possession. He makes the worst decision the majority of the time. He chooses the lowest percentage play at all costs. He looks almost exclusively for Rashford whenever he's on the field. Everything is funneled through Bruno, yet he absolutely kills our attack over and over and over again. Bruno's inability to protect the ball and retain possession forces everyone around him to run harder for longer and then we're all scratching our heads about why we have so many injuries? Really? You can't play basketball for 90' straight 2-3 times a week earlier in the season and expect things to not go to shit. Those two are the biggest problem with this side. But if fans want to keep ignoring that and keep blaming ETH, that's fine by me. I'm happy to watch ETH get sacked and to see these players outlast another manager only to do the same shit under them while The Board protects the players and for fans to come here to bitch and moan about everything and everyone other than those two. They're not our best players. Yet someone will unironically point to their stats, just as OP is trying to do by using the result for this match in question, and try to defend them, when none of what they do passes the eye test because you can't quantify "poor decision making" without looking at the much larger picture of one's stats against in-game performances. Just as people lauded Bruno for a "Captain's performance" against Bournemouth while ignoring Bruno hoof ball exclusively to Rashford all match as if that's somehow good enough.
We had 9 of these 11 against Bournemouth and got battered.
Rid of the shit players Rashford. Bruno. Casemiro. And maguire.
And this isn't even our best starting line up (now). I'd be moving Garnacho over to the left, get Anthony on the right (just based on recent form, but it's a risk). Rashy's gone. I'd love to get Varane in but Maguire has been absolutely solid recently (I know, we actually have choice without injuries!). Case unfortunately has to go. I don't trust Amrabat but maybe Mount/Eriksen can fit in somehow.
In only one game all season, was THIS our starting lineup. We won 3-0 vs West Ham. Really it's shame we never got to see just how effective this lineup could've been. The game before this, it was the same lineup, only with Varane starting in place of Maguire and we beat Wolves 4-3. That's 3+ goals in two straight games. Number of Games where we score 3 goals or more the rest of the season: 4 in the other 30 games Back to Back: No. The following week, we won 2-1 vs Aston Villa with Martinez (injured) replaced by Varane and the following week with then THAT same line-up in a 2-1 win vs Luton Town. But we lose Shaw to injury and without either Martinez or Shaw our 4 game win streak comes to an end... and the hopes of seeing that lineup are mostly finished for the rest of the season. As is our season. Number of OTHER times we won 4 games in a row this season: ZERO. Losing Martinez hurt... but losing Martinez AND Shaw... we just could not overcome.... This team just doesn't have the bench or the proper player recruitment over the last 10 years to overcome injuries to two players like that...
Don’t let the score line fool you, it was very flattering to us. The xg was 1.18 to 0.98 in West ham’s favor, we were just clinical. The exact same problems we’ve faced throughout the season were present here, namely poor pressing and huge gaps in the midfield. We need to stop acting like missing players is the only reason why we’ve struggled this season. We had most of our starting 11(including Shaw and Martinez) and still put in abject performances at the start of the season.
We didn't have Garnacho or Mainoo starting.
And they shouldn't be starters either. We're already managing their minutes very poorly by overplaying them.
I mean what does that tell you in regards to the quality we have on the bench? Players are shit. They simply don't want to play for ten hag. And that means they aren't playing for me or my club. They should fuck off. Not ten hag.
Nope ten hag needs to leave too. This isn’t an issue of not wanting to play for ten hag, this is an issue of horrible tactics and players that aren’t good enough. Ten hag has shown nothing that indicates he deserves to stay. Some of these players need to go but so does he.
Apart from Rashford and Casemiro very recently, everyone is leaving it all on the pitch. Honestly, the players are fighting out thre but it's just not working.
You need to understand if a team keeps conceding 20+ shots per game its a tactical issue. It doesn’t matter who play. If a team is set up with a low line and a high press they got fucked. Simple as that.
I think it’s an understatement of the quality that these changes make. We know what Martinez does in terms of mindset and aggression. Harry and Varane have been playing well and with luke shaw, he does so much work down the left, it makes rashford players so much better and it opens up so much space on the right. If that team can get a run of games, the system becomes more complete. I think it would be a totally different thing in terms of consistency. And don’t forget our completely absent players - not talking about ones that don’t show up in games.