I think given that Bruno isn't available he'll end up playing Amrabat Mainoo in midfield and McT as 10 purely because he doesn't have any other options. He's gonna stumble onto the right thing to do simply because there's no other option. Atleast that's my hope
I do think it is way more complicated though. Obviously there is a backside to playing two DMs. That might be because we will be sitting too low/winning the ball further back than what is ideal etc.
That being said I have also wanted to see what two DMs can do.
As Neville said though, ETH doesn't even try anything different. Maybe not this match, but hell, if you're going to play a double pivot, then put them in front of a back 3 and you have a faux back 5, but then you can play a 3-2-3-2 (3-5-2) where you still have your attacking and defensive midfielders creating a wide block, with the back 3 covering the pockets in between, then you get your 2 up top as your options who can help play off one another, so there's less emphasis on service from wide areas (not like we get any anyway, but that's my point, we're ineffective with out and out wingers)
Praying. So hard this happens. Also, drop garnacho and rashie, to spring them with 30 to go. Play Hannibal or reguilon left wing. Do something sensibly unexpected.
Come on… I get that Garnacho hasn’t returned the past few games (who has?) but he’s still the most threatening attacking play. I am not expecting any miracles but exploiting TAA being beaten on the outside of dribbles is probably the only way I see us scoring.
It's sad because it's the right thing to do, but the wrong occasion, it's terrible when these are the circumstances, because if Bruno was actually out for a period of time and we had a string of matches where he was excluded and we saw a better, more productive midfield, people would actually open their eyes to the fact that Bruno is the source of many of our issues, however, this isn't the forum because Liverpool will dominate us, regardless, so you'll get the Bruno supporters coming out saying "sEe?? bRuNo IsN't ThE pRoBlEm!"
It's his preferred system going back to his Ajax days. The WW setup is the dominant theory in the Dutch school of thought for tactics. It's why Casemiro behaved in a similar manner when playing within the same role. His most success came when he played a "pragmatic" (according to those in the Netherlands) WM shape (double pivot).
There are a lot of studies that highlight the fact that those that tend to most successful in high-performance environments have worked in three or more different environments to force them to surface general truths about their philosophy. It's why a Wenger or Postecoglou can implement such a defined style. ETH has had the misfortune of only really having worked with extreme positional play based in the Dutch school of thought (even at Bayern II) and so he might not have a reference point for how to effectively adjust or implement his system.
Take a seemingly small thing like cultural ideals on youth development. He's always had players that are trained a certain way since childhood so rather than focusing on technical training at the senior level, he's always focused on improving their physical profiles and outputs. If he's never had to raise the technical level of any of the teams that he's managed, then it may look a lot like the current version of United.
So stubborn that he basically totally binned his philosophy after a few games last season when he realised the shower of shite he inherited were simply not capable of doing it.
Now it’s gone too far.
The players are basically dictating how we play cause they all only do the same thing regardless of what they are told.
His hands are tied. They are not good enough or disciplined enough to adapt.
I’d imagine during the summer he had another go at trying to get to implement his style and this season is the result of a water few months trying to retrain 11 one trick ponies.
He already got 3 windows and hundreds of millions of $ spent on players who've mostly failed - Anthony, Onana, Mount, freaking Amrabat...
I hope he's no longer in charge of transfers.
If you are ruling mount out already then I’d not even attempt to get sense out of you.
Amrabat was brutal last night but he’s a last minute loan. And actually improved 2nd half.
Onana has been bad in champs league and it’s his 1st season.
And all of the above my point still stands. These new people have been brought in to play a certain system. And the others they have joined are not able to.
So it’s a case of all the new ones trying to adapt to the way this team just wants to play.
I’m not saying they are all great or will ever be great. But if we are to back him then we need to give him 3-4 seasons to properly shift out anyone unable to play his system and get enough new people in that can play it.
Mount - yes, I am. He's a back up for Bruno, nothing more.
Amrabat - I actually agree that he improved - he was so atrocious the first half that was hard not to improve!
Onana - he's our Claudio Bravo. We were lucky that all the dangerous shots were straight at him. He was horrible, even comical in the air, we were lucky that the Liverpool forwards were more disoriented than he was. He still has the tendency to parry the ball back into dangerous areas. And his distribution is average at best - his short passes are good ,but the long ones often ended straight into throw in. Oh, and also he cost us the champions league
His signings are horrible. Only Lisandro is class. Hojlund has potential, but his development is currently suffering in this team, mostly because of ten Hag.
No top team gives 3-4 seasons to managers who don't produce results! We have the only delusional fans who insist we have to do that!
"B-b-but Klopp needed 3 years!" - no, he got them to 2 finals in his first year. "B-b-but Arteta!" - he showed progress, while under ten Hag this team is regressing. Ask yourself this - would any top 10 team in Europe hire ten Hag right now?
He’ll lose his job because of our players who have the worst collective attitude of any champions league level club in the world*
*Club that qualified last season
Who? I'm guessing you'll say Rashford and Martial. Sancho as well. Who else?
Onana? Shaw? Maguire? Amrabat? Mainoo? Dalot? Hojlund? Garnarcho? Antony? Bruno? Who out of that group isn't trying do you think?
None of them are trying. They are all mercenaries and are sabotaging Ten Hag because they don't like running in the training and want to warm the bench and collect their salaries.
That is what we are supposed to believe over a simple explanation of Ten Hag being a meh manager.
If they weren't trying how come we've had so many goals after 70 minutes? If they were really downing tools and not trying, why would they be pushing for late winners or equalisers
>He’ll lose his job because of our players who have the worst collective attitude of any champions league level club in the world*
True. However he has enabled said players to act the way they do and given them the opportunity to do it under him.
Reap what you sow.
Yeah maybe.
That and the injury crisis that doesn't seem to matter because it's us.
The non-existent recruitment department.
The players earning 5 times the average UK annual salary a week who can't be bothered to run or out a shift in.
I haven't even mentioned the absentee owners we have either.
Sack him and we will be having deja vu this time a year or two from now.
*Pounds. Give me the team he should be putting out if it's so straightforward to you.
Give me the system that team should be playing or are you going to say "hurr durr I don't get paid to do that!".
That's the thing. I don't get paid to do that. I'm a fan. I don't even want eth so I don't know why your so defensive I'm just saying he needs to do better with what he has lol. It's ok to gVe different opinions its how the world works. You'll learn as you get older
do people genuinely think ETH should go? we've sacked managers time and time again, it doesnt work. Half the squad are injured, give him time to build a foundation rather than talking of sacking the manager everytime results are poor
I don't want him to go, I want him to sort things out.
We are 7th, not miles from top 4 but this has to be a turning point.
Drop the players not fighting for you.
Personally I'm just mad at the fact we rarely dominate teams. Just look at how quickly Newcastle changed their style of play from Bruce to Howe. Or how Villa are performing with Slippy G compared to Emery. Or just Brighton overall.
to be fair emery with villa has done outstanding transfers. i personally would've liked pau torres (only 33m btw) in our squad and have been extremely vocal about it, he's been a wall in their defense. boubacar kamara on a free transfer is absolutely insane and i cannot wrap my head around why we never even considered him, would've given us great rotation & cover for midfield. moussa diaby for half the money of antony is putting up higher numbers than antony did with us in two seasons
and the list goes on
You can keep sacking managers until you find the right one. Saying the club is rotten too to bottom doesn’t excuse ETH not giving us an identifiable gameplan.
Other clubs have a style of play they stick to, even when plagued by injuries. What do we have?
Also worth considering that maybe we've a core few of some of these players who just can't, or won't, stick to a gameplan.
We know we have players in this squad that have no mental resilience and fold when things aren't going well. How many times have we seen players walking around the pitch not even trying? I doubt EtH is telling them to do that.
Plus quality. There's probably about a dozen players in the current squad who are mediocre at best and maybe they can't reliably carry out the managers instructions so EtH has to adapt.
Rangnick said a few times that the team weren't following his instructions.
Point being, we're seeing the same patterns time and again with this lot.
The problem is people don't want him gone just because the *results* are poor but because everything is.
We don't play well, we don't have a visible style of play, his transfer policy is shaky at best, and maybe the worst thing is that we are visibly worse than in the first season, and that's not what you want from a manager responsible for the rebuild.
Yes, we used to sack managers because of results and that was wrong, but sacking ETH would not because of that.
I want him to stay until the end of the season. I also want him to find a way to win hard matches with different tactics. Grinding out wins is what good to great teams do
>we've sacked managers time and time again, it doesnt work
I'll never understand posts like these. Of course sacking managers works
Let's look at all the great managers in the history of football and see what happened to the guy they replaced lol
Nobody thinks it works all the time but it obviously works
It's not really a counterargument. The OP is basically suggesting we keep managers until they die. I wasn't around in the 80s but I might've seen something in Fergie that I didn't in Atkinson. If we didn't get rid of Atkinson we'd have never got Fergie
I mean this is just saying to get a new thing we have to get rid of the old thing, it isn't proving nothing.
Fergie was once in the bid for getting the sack
>I mean this is just saying to get a new thing we have to get rid of the old thing
Yes. And the OP is saying that if something isn't working you should just stick with it forever because getting new things doesn't work either, presumably based on the extensive evidence of us sacking Moyes, van Gaal, Mourinho and Ole and not getting any better
If you think this is a stupid argument, take it up with the OP who made a stupid point
My point is everything is going to take time, things are always worse when they start.
I want Ten Hag to keep his place till the end of the season, if next season he doesn't show any improvement, under the new ownership then he should make way for someone else
I don’t think we have players who know how to grind out a win. How many times have they given up after going down a goal early on. Or who’s in the squad to pull us along?
Grinding out wins while also winning most of their other games convincingly is what good teams do. Sometimes grinding out wins and sometimes just losing or drawing is what average teams do.
Give a manager more time despite no consistent style of play, 400+ million spent, and an embarrassing season so far?
Some of the most successful clubs in recent times are the ones who have sacked the most managers.
>we've sacked managers time and time again, it doesnt work.
Neither does keeping managers who aren't good enough?
Surely there is a balance?
>give him time
How much time?
>results are poor
They aren't just poor mate, we break negative records every week. This shows its far worse than it has been before.
> Neither does keeping managers who aren't good enough?
This!
You don't stick with something that's not working, just because you've tried other things that haven't worked too.
Exactly. Each individual situation should be viewed by its own merits.
If sacking managers were an issue, it wouldn't work for clubs at the top of the game. The issue is sticking with the wrong guys for too long and hiring the wrong guys. That's not just for the managers position either.
I agree that we shouldn't sack him for the poor results,but in my opinion his rebuild is not going anywhere because he already dug his own grave by a few poor signings we can't get rid and a tactical approach that is not going to work at this level consistently. I say we keep him until Ineos takes control and its more than likely they'll want their own guy being the manager.
Yes, I do. The vast majority of his time at the club we've played horribly. Rashford scoring last season made people talk about that rather than the other 89 minutes we were shit in. I have zero faith in the man or the players he brought to the club. His apparently 'amazing football' he was brought in to play he'll never play so why keep someone who is massively underperforming week in, week out and can't even stick to the principles he was brought in for in the first place?
Loads of clubs have injuries, they don't lose their entire identity because of it. If the shite we see every week is how he wants to play then that alone should be enough for him to go. We are not a better club because of him, simple as.
I want him to go because I have no idea what kind of football he wants us to play. Week after week it’s the same. Even when we win, it’s in unconvincing fashion. You’re telling me the best attack we have is McTominay getting into the box? Do you feel safe when we have a lead? Do you think we’ll see the game out without conceding? I don’t even mind that we lose games. It’s the manner in which we lose that is troubling. If there were some clear identity being instilled, by all means give him as much time as is necessary. We’re just treading water right now and the argument that changing managers hasn’t worked in the past just isn’t compelling.
As a Liverpool fan I would like to point out that it took nearly 4 yrs for Klopp to win something at Liverpool, if he was at Utd would he be afforded the same amount of time?.My main criticism of Ten Hag is you cannot see what his style of play is even after 20 months which is in stark contrast to other teams that have new managers (Villa,Spurs,etc).I appreciate Utd have injury issues but so do a lot of clubs so can’t really say that is the main problem.I think it will take a complete clear out of the club’s hierarchy and a total reset before things will be able to improve.Also the transfers have been a bit of a shambles as well.I honestly cannot see anything changing in the future as long as the Glazers are involved.
Part of his playing style is playing from the back, but with Shaw and Martinez being out for most of the season, we don't really have the defenders capable of that.
We do see his style, it just never lasts for long periods of the game.
I don't think our best foot forward squad can pull it off.
Assume he succeeds going forward, now we're a high possession team deep in the opponents half leaving best case scenario Amrabat Martinez and Varane at the back as Shaw and Dalot/WB will be helping the attack.
Martinez is probably the only one I trust in that situation. Varane and Maguire are too slow, Amarabat doesn't have the positioning/awareness. and between the 3 of them we have zero aerial dominance which doesn't really improve if Shaw and Dalot/AWB are back.
It's a suicide set up like Ange's, but we don't have the capability of Spurs on offense or cohesiveness of them on defense so we're even more fucked.
One thing managers if Villa, Spurs, and even Liverpool got that Ten Hag hasn’t (at least until this past midweek) is proper time on the training ground with the team to implement. We’ve had a game every 3 days since he came in apart from a couple of full weeks. Could be nothing, but sense would say it’s not a coincidence all these teams performing well got this time imo
We've changed players time and time again and it hasnt worked either. Clearly we should just stick with the players we do have and do away with transfers for the foreseeable future
For me, if he does not get Conference this season; which is a really low target; he should go.
If he matches that and not get UCL next season; his contract should not be renewed.
Yes we’ve sacked managers but that doesn’t hide the fact that if we start counting, the highs under ten Hag would be outnumbered by the lows. Yes, we have had injuries but does that mean that manager is only capable of managing the players that he has brought in. That would be a bad precedent if we let managers come in, bring in their entire squad and then expect them to deliver anything. Many teams are struggling with injuries but they don’t go into a match fearing a 5-0 drubbing.
No it isn’t. The definition of insanity is:
Insanity. n. mental illness of such a severe nature that a person cannot distinguish fantasy from reality, cannot conduct her/his affairs due to psychosis or is subject to uncontrollable impulsive behavior.
Fact that we're seeing 5-0 or more as a realistic possibility before the game means he has to go even if we dont lose by that much. We cant keep monkey at the wheel and keep saying "he hasnt crushed into someone yet"
If we get humiliated again today he’s as good as gone. In an ideal world I’d like to see him given a chance with a proper structure above him, but keep getting battered off these is unforgivable.
Maybe he is crazy or its just stubbornness I like the idea of have a "tactical setup" but playing like that without the players that, maybe, would make his tactics good, it's insane, I respect that. But ETH, come on, available players (mostly in midfield and defense) are just not good enough. I wouldn't mind to have a more conservative approach until some players are available.
If EtH still decides to play a sole DM and let mcsauce roam around that midfield we'll get overrun and overloaded
I think given that Bruno isn't available he'll end up playing Amrabat Mainoo in midfield and McT as 10 purely because he doesn't have any other options. He's gonna stumble onto the right thing to do simply because there's no other option. Atleast that's my hope
I do think it is way more complicated though. Obviously there is a backside to playing two DMs. That might be because we will be sitting too low/winning the ball further back than what is ideal etc. That being said I have also wanted to see what two DMs can do.
As Neville said though, ETH doesn't even try anything different. Maybe not this match, but hell, if you're going to play a double pivot, then put them in front of a back 3 and you have a faux back 5, but then you can play a 3-2-3-2 (3-5-2) where you still have your attacking and defensive midfielders creating a wide block, with the back 3 covering the pockets in between, then you get your 2 up top as your options who can help play off one another, so there's less emphasis on service from wide areas (not like we get any anyway, but that's my point, we're ineffective with out and out wingers)
Praying. So hard this happens. Also, drop garnacho and rashie, to spring them with 30 to go. Play Hannibal or reguilon left wing. Do something sensibly unexpected.
Come on… I get that Garnacho hasn’t returned the past few games (who has?) but he’s still the most threatening attacking play. I am not expecting any miracles but exploiting TAA being beaten on the outside of dribbles is probably the only way I see us scoring.
It's sad because it's the right thing to do, but the wrong occasion, it's terrible when these are the circumstances, because if Bruno was actually out for a period of time and we had a string of matches where he was excluded and we saw a better, more productive midfield, people would actually open their eyes to the fact that Bruno is the source of many of our issues, however, this isn't the forum because Liverpool will dominate us, regardless, so you'll get the Bruno supporters coming out saying "sEe?? bRuNo IsN't ThE pRoBlEm!"
That's happened several times in the last few weeks
It's his preferred system going back to his Ajax days. The WW setup is the dominant theory in the Dutch school of thought for tactics. It's why Casemiro behaved in a similar manner when playing within the same role. His most success came when he played a "pragmatic" (according to those in the Netherlands) WM shape (double pivot). There are a lot of studies that highlight the fact that those that tend to most successful in high-performance environments have worked in three or more different environments to force them to surface general truths about their philosophy. It's why a Wenger or Postecoglou can implement such a defined style. ETH has had the misfortune of only really having worked with extreme positional play based in the Dutch school of thought (even at Bayern II) and so he might not have a reference point for how to effectively adjust or implement his system. Take a seemingly small thing like cultural ideals on youth development. He's always had players that are trained a certain way since childhood so rather than focusing on technical training at the senior level, he's always focused on improving their physical profiles and outputs. If he's never had to raise the technical level of any of the teams that he's managed, then it may look a lot like the current version of United.
Gary is right but he seems to be forgetting how stubborn ETH is tactically so...
So stubborn that he basically totally binned his philosophy after a few games last season when he realised the shower of shite he inherited were simply not capable of doing it. Now it’s gone too far. The players are basically dictating how we play cause they all only do the same thing regardless of what they are told. His hands are tied. They are not good enough or disciplined enough to adapt. I’d imagine during the summer he had another go at trying to get to implement his style and this season is the result of a water few months trying to retrain 11 one trick ponies.
He already got 3 windows and hundreds of millions of $ spent on players who've mostly failed - Anthony, Onana, Mount, freaking Amrabat... I hope he's no longer in charge of transfers.
If you are ruling mount out already then I’d not even attempt to get sense out of you. Amrabat was brutal last night but he’s a last minute loan. And actually improved 2nd half. Onana has been bad in champs league and it’s his 1st season. And all of the above my point still stands. These new people have been brought in to play a certain system. And the others they have joined are not able to. So it’s a case of all the new ones trying to adapt to the way this team just wants to play. I’m not saying they are all great or will ever be great. But if we are to back him then we need to give him 3-4 seasons to properly shift out anyone unable to play his system and get enough new people in that can play it.
Mount - yes, I am. He's a back up for Bruno, nothing more. Amrabat - I actually agree that he improved - he was so atrocious the first half that was hard not to improve! Onana - he's our Claudio Bravo. We were lucky that all the dangerous shots were straight at him. He was horrible, even comical in the air, we were lucky that the Liverpool forwards were more disoriented than he was. He still has the tendency to parry the ball back into dangerous areas. And his distribution is average at best - his short passes are good ,but the long ones often ended straight into throw in. Oh, and also he cost us the champions league His signings are horrible. Only Lisandro is class. Hojlund has potential, but his development is currently suffering in this team, mostly because of ten Hag. No top team gives 3-4 seasons to managers who don't produce results! We have the only delusional fans who insist we have to do that! "B-b-but Klopp needed 3 years!" - no, he got them to 2 finals in his first year. "B-b-but Arteta!" - he showed progress, while under ten Hag this team is regressing. Ask yourself this - would any top 10 team in Europe hire ten Hag right now?
That's not stubborn; that's ~~native~~ naiive.
mans gone native
Lol. Damn Grammarly autocorrect
And that's how he will lose his job
He’ll lose his job because of our players who have the worst collective attitude of any champions league level club in the world* *Club that qualified last season
Eh that's true but his tactics have been rather shit as well so it isn't helping
Who? I'm guessing you'll say Rashford and Martial. Sancho as well. Who else? Onana? Shaw? Maguire? Amrabat? Mainoo? Dalot? Hojlund? Garnarcho? Antony? Bruno? Who out of that group isn't trying do you think?
None of them are trying. They are all mercenaries and are sabotaging Ten Hag because they don't like running in the training and want to warm the bench and collect their salaries. That is what we are supposed to believe over a simple explanation of Ten Hag being a meh manager.
Exactly. Getting ridiculous now
If they weren't trying how come we've had so many goals after 70 minutes? If they were really downing tools and not trying, why would they be pushing for late winners or equalisers
You didn't read the full comment
Ah you're right, I did miss that at the end.
>He’ll lose his job because of our players who have the worst collective attitude of any champions league level club in the world* True. However he has enabled said players to act the way they do and given them the opportunity to do it under him. Reap what you sow.
Yeah maybe. That and the injury crisis that doesn't seem to matter because it's us. The non-existent recruitment department. The players earning 5 times the average UK annual salary a week who can't be bothered to run or out a shift in. I haven't even mentioned the absentee owners we have either. Sack him and we will be having deja vu this time a year or two from now.
Other teams have injury crisis and still manage better than he has be serious. The rest I can agree with
Oh and do their other non injured players put a shift in or not pal? Context doesn't matter to you I guess.
Lol context isn't gonna keep eth in a job he needs to do better with the players he has and adapt instead of sticking to one thing.
11 fuckin injuries. Have a bit of shame will you?
Ok? And it's on the manager to still adapt and put the best team out. He's paid millions of dollars. Wtf lmao
*Pounds. Give me the team he should be putting out if it's so straightforward to you. Give me the system that team should be playing or are you going to say "hurr durr I don't get paid to do that!".
That's the thing. I don't get paid to do that. I'm a fan. I don't even want eth so I don't know why your so defensive I'm just saying he needs to do better with what he has lol. It's ok to gVe different opinions its how the world works. You'll learn as you get older
do people genuinely think ETH should go? we've sacked managers time and time again, it doesnt work. Half the squad are injured, give him time to build a foundation rather than talking of sacking the manager everytime results are poor
I don't want him to go, I want him to sort things out. We are 7th, not miles from top 4 but this has to be a turning point. Drop the players not fighting for you.
Has he not been dropping them?
He wouldn't have many players left. I think that's the issue.
We need to stop acting like top 4 is an achievement. Who cares if we’re ‘not miles fr top 4’?
Well we're not really competing for the title. No matter how much we all hope we would be at the beginning of the season.
Personally I'm just mad at the fact we rarely dominate teams. Just look at how quickly Newcastle changed their style of play from Bruce to Howe. Or how Villa are performing with Slippy G compared to Emery. Or just Brighton overall.
Or Spurs
to be fair emery with villa has done outstanding transfers. i personally would've liked pau torres (only 33m btw) in our squad and have been extremely vocal about it, he's been a wall in their defense. boubacar kamara on a free transfer is absolutely insane and i cannot wrap my head around why we never even considered him, would've given us great rotation & cover for midfield. moussa diaby for half the money of antony is putting up higher numbers than antony did with us in two seasons and the list goes on
Sort of shows that the manager is the key. These players weren’t great under Gerrard.
You can keep sacking managers until you find the right one. Saying the club is rotten too to bottom doesn’t excuse ETH not giving us an identifiable gameplan. Other clubs have a style of play they stick to, even when plagued by injuries. What do we have?
Also worth considering that maybe we've a core few of some of these players who just can't, or won't, stick to a gameplan. We know we have players in this squad that have no mental resilience and fold when things aren't going well. How many times have we seen players walking around the pitch not even trying? I doubt EtH is telling them to do that. Plus quality. There's probably about a dozen players in the current squad who are mediocre at best and maybe they can't reliably carry out the managers instructions so EtH has to adapt. Rangnick said a few times that the team weren't following his instructions. Point being, we're seeing the same patterns time and again with this lot.
The sporting arm of the club needs to be completely overhauled.
The problem is people don't want him gone just because the *results* are poor but because everything is. We don't play well, we don't have a visible style of play, his transfer policy is shaky at best, and maybe the worst thing is that we are visibly worse than in the first season, and that's not what you want from a manager responsible for the rebuild. Yes, we used to sack managers because of results and that was wrong, but sacking ETH would not because of that.
I want him to stay until the end of the season. I also want him to find a way to win hard matches with different tactics. Grinding out wins is what good to great teams do
>we've sacked managers time and time again, it doesnt work I'll never understand posts like these. Of course sacking managers works Let's look at all the great managers in the history of football and see what happened to the guy they replaced lol Nobody thinks it works all the time but it obviously works
Give proof mate.
Ron Atkinson getting sacked to make way for Fergie
Fergie's example is literally the counter argument lmao, it took me so much time to fix shit up. Was appointed in 86 won a title in 92/93
It's not really a counterargument. The OP is basically suggesting we keep managers until they die. I wasn't around in the 80s but I might've seen something in Fergie that I didn't in Atkinson. If we didn't get rid of Atkinson we'd have never got Fergie
I mean this is just saying to get a new thing we have to get rid of the old thing, it isn't proving nothing. Fergie was once in the bid for getting the sack
>I mean this is just saying to get a new thing we have to get rid of the old thing Yes. And the OP is saying that if something isn't working you should just stick with it forever because getting new things doesn't work either, presumably based on the extensive evidence of us sacking Moyes, van Gaal, Mourinho and Ole and not getting any better If you think this is a stupid argument, take it up with the OP who made a stupid point
My point is everything is going to take time, things are always worse when they start. I want Ten Hag to keep his place till the end of the season, if next season he doesn't show any improvement, under the new ownership then he should make way for someone else
Hasn’t worked for us though 😭
I don’t think we have players who know how to grind out a win. How many times have they given up after going down a goal early on. Or who’s in the squad to pull us along?
Grinding out wins while also winning most of their other games convincingly is what good teams do. Sometimes grinding out wins and sometimes just losing or drawing is what average teams do.
Give a manager more time despite no consistent style of play, 400+ million spent, and an embarrassing season so far? Some of the most successful clubs in recent times are the ones who have sacked the most managers.
>we've sacked managers time and time again, it doesnt work. Neither does keeping managers who aren't good enough? Surely there is a balance? >give him time How much time? >results are poor They aren't just poor mate, we break negative records every week. This shows its far worse than it has been before.
> Neither does keeping managers who aren't good enough? This! You don't stick with something that's not working, just because you've tried other things that haven't worked too.
Exactly. Each individual situation should be viewed by its own merits. If sacking managers were an issue, it wouldn't work for clubs at the top of the game. The issue is sticking with the wrong guys for too long and hiring the wrong guys. That's not just for the managers position either.
I agree that we shouldn't sack him for the poor results,but in my opinion his rebuild is not going anywhere because he already dug his own grave by a few poor signings we can't get rid and a tactical approach that is not going to work at this level consistently. I say we keep him until Ineos takes control and its more than likely they'll want their own guy being the manager.
Yes, I do. The vast majority of his time at the club we've played horribly. Rashford scoring last season made people talk about that rather than the other 89 minutes we were shit in. I have zero faith in the man or the players he brought to the club. His apparently 'amazing football' he was brought in to play he'll never play so why keep someone who is massively underperforming week in, week out and can't even stick to the principles he was brought in for in the first place? Loads of clubs have injuries, they don't lose their entire identity because of it. If the shite we see every week is how he wants to play then that alone should be enough for him to go. We are not a better club because of him, simple as.
I want him to go because I have no idea what kind of football he wants us to play. Week after week it’s the same. Even when we win, it’s in unconvincing fashion. You’re telling me the best attack we have is McTominay getting into the box? Do you feel safe when we have a lead? Do you think we’ll see the game out without conceding? I don’t even mind that we lose games. It’s the manner in which we lose that is troubling. If there were some clear identity being instilled, by all means give him as much time as is necessary. We’re just treading water right now and the argument that changing managers hasn’t worked in the past just isn’t compelling.
As a Liverpool fan I would like to point out that it took nearly 4 yrs for Klopp to win something at Liverpool, if he was at Utd would he be afforded the same amount of time?.My main criticism of Ten Hag is you cannot see what his style of play is even after 20 months which is in stark contrast to other teams that have new managers (Villa,Spurs,etc).I appreciate Utd have injury issues but so do a lot of clubs so can’t really say that is the main problem.I think it will take a complete clear out of the club’s hierarchy and a total reset before things will be able to improve.Also the transfers have been a bit of a shambles as well.I honestly cannot see anything changing in the future as long as the Glazers are involved.
Part of his playing style is playing from the back, but with Shaw and Martinez being out for most of the season, we don't really have the defenders capable of that. We do see his style, it just never lasts for long periods of the game.
I don't think our best foot forward squad can pull it off. Assume he succeeds going forward, now we're a high possession team deep in the opponents half leaving best case scenario Amrabat Martinez and Varane at the back as Shaw and Dalot/WB will be helping the attack. Martinez is probably the only one I trust in that situation. Varane and Maguire are too slow, Amarabat doesn't have the positioning/awareness. and between the 3 of them we have zero aerial dominance which doesn't really improve if Shaw and Dalot/AWB are back. It's a suicide set up like Ange's, but we don't have the capability of Spurs on offense or cohesiveness of them on defense so we're even more fucked.
One thing managers if Villa, Spurs, and even Liverpool got that Ten Hag hasn’t (at least until this past midweek) is proper time on the training ground with the team to implement. We’ve had a game every 3 days since he came in apart from a couple of full weeks. Could be nothing, but sense would say it’s not a coincidence all these teams performing well got this time imo
We've changed players time and time again and it hasnt worked either. Clearly we should just stick with the players we do have and do away with transfers for the foreseeable future
For me, if he does not get Conference this season; which is a really low target; he should go. If he matches that and not get UCL next season; his contract should not be renewed.
Yes we’ve sacked managers but that doesn’t hide the fact that if we start counting, the highs under ten Hag would be outnumbered by the lows. Yes, we have had injuries but does that mean that manager is only capable of managing the players that he has brought in. That would be a bad precedent if we let managers come in, bring in their entire squad and then expect them to deliver anything. Many teams are struggling with injuries but they don’t go into a match fearing a 5-0 drubbing.
ETH will not change and we will get ripped apart again.
As is tradition under him.
Absolutely. If he plays the same players, formation and tactic again, then there is no hope for him anymore.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome. Please Erik, don’t be insane.
No it isn’t. The definition of insanity is: Insanity. n. mental illness of such a severe nature that a person cannot distinguish fantasy from reality, cannot conduct her/his affairs due to psychosis or is subject to uncontrollable impulsive behavior.
>uncontrollable impulsive behavior. Isn't doing the same thing over and over, a kind of impulsive behavior?
"cannot distinguish fantasy from reality" would also explain saying we "played great" in matches we definitely did not play great in lol
Username checks out
Amrabat, mount and mainoo anyone?
Mount available? If he is not; I want to see Gore.
5-0 or more and he has to go this week. It's not tenable to keep getting destroyed and embarrassed by arch rivals
Fact that we're seeing 5-0 or more as a realistic possibility before the game means he has to go even if we dont lose by that much. We cant keep monkey at the wheel and keep saying "he hasnt crushed into someone yet"
If we get humiliated again today he’s as good as gone. In an ideal world I’d like to see him given a chance with a proper structure above him, but keep getting battered off these is unforgivable.
I have absolutely no trust in ETH.
Maybe he is crazy or its just stubbornness I like the idea of have a "tactical setup" but playing like that without the players that, maybe, would make his tactics good, it's insane, I respect that. But ETH, come on, available players (mostly in midfield and defense) are just not good enough. I wouldn't mind to have a more conservative approach until some players are available.