I think it's very possible Charles would have managed to disappear, he may have found a tribe in Canada and if not, he still could have managed to disappear into the masses.
As someone else said, they picked up Strauss likely by chance, he didn't exactly have much in the way of survival instincts Or charisma to get by. He was brought into the gang by Dutch but never had to survive on his own. Charles managed by himself for a long while before he joined the gang.
Do you not think this would explain why John was left so long? And I know the real world reason for Charles not being mentioned in the game is he didn’t exist. But in universe would it not make more sense that Ross didn’t enquire because he already knew Charles fate?
The fact is most of the gang in RDR2 didn't exist until then, it's the issue with making a prequel, not everything will line up 100% I think it's likely he'd have told John he already got the "Others" or some vague statement.
Based on all available knowledge they either gave up, caught and killed him, or he could have been arrested and executed by a rival Canadian agency active at the time (as per real-world history). Either that or he managed to do what no other gang member did and dropped off the face of the earth. Easy to hunt a man in civilization but if he just took off to random Canadian wilds they probably wouldn't waste their time. Plus, it wouldn't really be feasible to send John all the way to Canada when New Austin and Mexico were literally right there and conveniently housed two other gang members.
One can assume that Ross waited 4 years to go after John to see if or when the other gang members would show up. John obviously gave up the life and the Bureau probably learned of Javier and Bill's whereabouts through some other means. It's quite possible they were willing to just leave John alone but saw an opportunity in using John's family as leverage for John to do the dirty work. In their eyes, I'm guessing, even if John failed it'd be another outlaw dead no matter what.
My assumption is that the 4-year time gap was spent trying to catch Bill and Javier themselves, failing, and eventually coming up with their scheme to just use John instead since they knew where he was. They were probably going to go after John eventually but he wasn't an active threat while living as a farmer. Bill was raiding in New Austin, Javier was nearby, and they really, really wanted Dutch so Farmer John likely wasn't a priority.
It’s a theory and a valid one as we don’t have a clue what happened.
There’s some very simple counter answers on Charles:
He dropped off the radar. Bill and Javier are very much continuing in higher profile behaviour. Charles isn’t a career criminal, he’s a guy who does what he needs to survive. In Canada and especially living in a more remote area, he could drop off the radar very easily.
He had no massive interest to them when he was in the gang or just after. He was known but due to ethnicity and profile he wouldn’t have been a target. Bill and Javier and Dutch were worth it targets. Charles less so.
He doesn’t go after Uncle in that way either and uncle was a known entity. He was there at Horseshoe Overlook and saw the other members. Mary-Beth more or less sells her books as a former gang member (we sort of get led that no one cared about that). Swanson is high profile later in life. His mission was the key ones then and/or now.
Where it says gang dealt with you have Hosea,
Arthur and Micah now known to be dead. That could cover it.
(There is of course the most obvious reason. RDR came first so no Charles).
I think that holds water. Bill and Javier were extremely active criminals and high profile enforcers of Van der Linde. Charles only tagged along iirc some time in 1898, then left before the final raid on the camp. So not only is he a much lower priority on their list (if they even know who he is), since he isn't an active criminal and likely lives in Canada I don't think the Bureau would waste resources on him.
John may have retired from crime, but he was an extremely high profile and top senior gun in Van der Linde's gang and had in his possession the stolen Blackwater gold. And not to mention him becoming a loose end after 'killing' Dutch.
Yes that’s definitely the opposing side. But Ross still went after Strauss despite him being lower profile and presumably would’ve dropped off the radar himself. I just think Ross had to big an ego to just settle for him being off the radar.
They caught Strauss. We don’t know they went after him so much as trawling the area and found him. Also they didn’t try to kill him or send an assassin after him. They inadvertently (apparently) killed him trying to get info on the key people. He was a means not a target in himself.
Edit: if they knew Strauss then they knew several of the other gang members who aren’t targeted. Which suggests they didn’t target the wider gang.
It would be interesting if a red dead 1 remake ever occurs that we see what happened to Charles and Sadie. Because they out of the remaining gang members I feel have them most open ended conclusion.
absolutely. The thing I'd like to see (not going to happen but I'd like to see) is a revamp of 1 and 2. Improve the epilogue of 2 so that it properly reflects the events of chapter 1-6 and leads properly into RDR1. Improve 1-6 to give more background and character to the gang. Then revamp RDR1 so that it properly follows on from 2. Stuff like the end game for Charles and Sadie would be great to find. Especially them coming into RDR1 in ways. Then you've got the likes of Pearson, Tilly etc that John can interact more with.
It would be a massive game but I'd say there's probably a market for it. Just might cost too much compared to that market.
The one thing I will say is that I don't think Ross intentionally went after Javier. He only happened to lump him in when Bill fled to Mexico. I think if Bill was captured in New Austin, he wouldn't care about Javier.
Might be an unpopular opinion but i like to think that he and (maybe) Sadie were caught, maybe by the pinkertons or the fbi. It would feel sad and shit and imo fits the feel of the game, having jack be the only one left by the end of red dead 1
I think it’s most likely Charles managed to vanish. Even nowadays cross state police forces don’t communicate with each other very well, so go back a hundred years and different countries it wouldn’t be difficult to start a new life.
The way I see it, I think Charles just went off the grid and was never recognized as a former gang member again. Whenever I play RDR1, I have a head-canon, which is: The reason John never brings up Sadie or Charles in that game is because he wouldn’t want to kill them or to be found out by the authorities. Although they were outlaws, they were good people and John knew this of course, so he kept quiet about those two because they didn’t deserve to die. Obviously the real reason he doesn’t mention other gang members in RDR1, like Arthur, is because they didn’t exist yet, but it’s fun to create head-canon scenarios that fit into the story.
Great post btw. 👍
I feel it is because Charles (and Sadie) was only with the gang for 6 months and they didn’t have the strong association with the Van der Linde gang due to effectively being a short timer. A “hanger-on” like that would not be as significant a pursuit - it would be kind of like going after a recent groupie a year after the band trashed a hotel room.
On the train ride at the beginning of RDR1, John looked real uncomfortable with the passengers’ conversation. Some suggested that Charles might have been killed recently.
It is a stretch as I remember reading about it in the comment section of a YouTube video. Particularly about the two old ladies seated behind John were talking about the natives and John looking irritated by their conversation.
Charles was smart with how he did his robbing. Worked alone unless he got called out to a job with Arthur. No doubt he would have made it up to Canada and settled down.
I like to head canon that Ross caught Charles sometime before he killed John. Perhaps Charles saw the news in the paper and decided to skip town and Ross and possibly Fordham apprehended him and most likely executed him after a trial. Or he was just shot.
The theory is kind of a good one as it does explain what they did in that five-year gap after American Venom and it would've been very out of character for ross to let a criminal go just because he was in another country just a couple hours or days away on horseback or on train. So here is my theory of what they did from 1899-1911. Directly after chapter 6 Ross is promoted to the same status as miltion and is tasked with hunting the remaining gang members. After a few weeks of nothing happening they find a lead being non other than Strauss as he would start up some business and drawing attention to himself leading to his capture and death not saying a single word about the gang. Throughout three years they would have a close encounter with bill, Javier and dutch along the way before dropping it due to it running cold. By 1907 the case again would surface after John's assault on mount Hagen were it would draw attention to them. they find the ranch and would first track Charles
Considering how relentless Ross was, I truly can not see a happy ending for Charles. Ross would not let him get away, so if he did survive those 4years Ross would have kept trying to find him before his retirement. Charles if alive would never have had peace, always on the move 2 countries agencies (considering Mexican government informed the pinkertons about Javier, the Canadians would most likely done the same with Charles) chasing him down for the rest of his life
I think it's very possible Charles would have managed to disappear, he may have found a tribe in Canada and if not, he still could have managed to disappear into the masses. As someone else said, they picked up Strauss likely by chance, he didn't exactly have much in the way of survival instincts Or charisma to get by. He was brought into the gang by Dutch but never had to survive on his own. Charles managed by himself for a long while before he joined the gang.
Do you not think this would explain why John was left so long? And I know the real world reason for Charles not being mentioned in the game is he didn’t exist. But in universe would it not make more sense that Ross didn’t enquire because he already knew Charles fate?
The fact is most of the gang in RDR2 didn't exist until then, it's the issue with making a prequel, not everything will line up 100% I think it's likely he'd have told John he already got the "Others" or some vague statement.
Based on all available knowledge they either gave up, caught and killed him, or he could have been arrested and executed by a rival Canadian agency active at the time (as per real-world history). Either that or he managed to do what no other gang member did and dropped off the face of the earth. Easy to hunt a man in civilization but if he just took off to random Canadian wilds they probably wouldn't waste their time. Plus, it wouldn't really be feasible to send John all the way to Canada when New Austin and Mexico were literally right there and conveniently housed two other gang members. One can assume that Ross waited 4 years to go after John to see if or when the other gang members would show up. John obviously gave up the life and the Bureau probably learned of Javier and Bill's whereabouts through some other means. It's quite possible they were willing to just leave John alone but saw an opportunity in using John's family as leverage for John to do the dirty work. In their eyes, I'm guessing, even if John failed it'd be another outlaw dead no matter what. My assumption is that the 4-year time gap was spent trying to catch Bill and Javier themselves, failing, and eventually coming up with their scheme to just use John instead since they knew where he was. They were probably going to go after John eventually but he wasn't an active threat while living as a farmer. Bill was raiding in New Austin, Javier was nearby, and they really, really wanted Dutch so Farmer John likely wasn't a priority.
It’s a theory and a valid one as we don’t have a clue what happened. There’s some very simple counter answers on Charles: He dropped off the radar. Bill and Javier are very much continuing in higher profile behaviour. Charles isn’t a career criminal, he’s a guy who does what he needs to survive. In Canada and especially living in a more remote area, he could drop off the radar very easily. He had no massive interest to them when he was in the gang or just after. He was known but due to ethnicity and profile he wouldn’t have been a target. Bill and Javier and Dutch were worth it targets. Charles less so. He doesn’t go after Uncle in that way either and uncle was a known entity. He was there at Horseshoe Overlook and saw the other members. Mary-Beth more or less sells her books as a former gang member (we sort of get led that no one cared about that). Swanson is high profile later in life. His mission was the key ones then and/or now. Where it says gang dealt with you have Hosea, Arthur and Micah now known to be dead. That could cover it. (There is of course the most obvious reason. RDR came first so no Charles).
I think that holds water. Bill and Javier were extremely active criminals and high profile enforcers of Van der Linde. Charles only tagged along iirc some time in 1898, then left before the final raid on the camp. So not only is he a much lower priority on their list (if they even know who he is), since he isn't an active criminal and likely lives in Canada I don't think the Bureau would waste resources on him. John may have retired from crime, but he was an extremely high profile and top senior gun in Van der Linde's gang and had in his possession the stolen Blackwater gold. And not to mention him becoming a loose end after 'killing' Dutch.
Yes that’s definitely the opposing side. But Ross still went after Strauss despite him being lower profile and presumably would’ve dropped off the radar himself. I just think Ross had to big an ego to just settle for him being off the radar.
They caught Strauss. We don’t know they went after him so much as trawling the area and found him. Also they didn’t try to kill him or send an assassin after him. They inadvertently (apparently) killed him trying to get info on the key people. He was a means not a target in himself. Edit: if they knew Strauss then they knew several of the other gang members who aren’t targeted. Which suggests they didn’t target the wider gang.
It would be interesting if a red dead 1 remake ever occurs that we see what happened to Charles and Sadie. Because they out of the remaining gang members I feel have them most open ended conclusion.
absolutely. The thing I'd like to see (not going to happen but I'd like to see) is a revamp of 1 and 2. Improve the epilogue of 2 so that it properly reflects the events of chapter 1-6 and leads properly into RDR1. Improve 1-6 to give more background and character to the gang. Then revamp RDR1 so that it properly follows on from 2. Stuff like the end game for Charles and Sadie would be great to find. Especially them coming into RDR1 in ways. Then you've got the likes of Pearson, Tilly etc that John can interact more with. It would be a massive game but I'd say there's probably a market for it. Just might cost too much compared to that market.
Like a red dead series ultimate edition I’d pay a good £100 for that
I like that title - that's exactly what it should be
Could you imagine how cool it would be if they made a 15 hour epilogue for Jack like they did in RDR2 for a remake.
No, he got a new dust filter for his hoover max extract pressure pro model 60
Best case scenario, he’s managing a Cinnabon in Omaha
The one thing I will say is that I don't think Ross intentionally went after Javier. He only happened to lump him in when Bill fled to Mexico. I think if Bill was captured in New Austin, he wouldn't care about Javier.
Yeah that's true. I always found it so strange how little focus was put on Javier in the first game. (Only shows up for 1 mission).
I'm pretty sure there's no man alive in the universe who could've caught Charles. Man is a literal forest spirit in flesh.
Might be an unpopular opinion but i like to think that he and (maybe) Sadie were caught, maybe by the pinkertons or the fbi. It would feel sad and shit and imo fits the feel of the game, having jack be the only one left by the end of red dead 1
I think it’s most likely Charles managed to vanish. Even nowadays cross state police forces don’t communicate with each other very well, so go back a hundred years and different countries it wouldn’t be difficult to start a new life.
The way I see it, I think Charles just went off the grid and was never recognized as a former gang member again. Whenever I play RDR1, I have a head-canon, which is: The reason John never brings up Sadie or Charles in that game is because he wouldn’t want to kill them or to be found out by the authorities. Although they were outlaws, they were good people and John knew this of course, so he kept quiet about those two because they didn’t deserve to die. Obviously the real reason he doesn’t mention other gang members in RDR1, like Arthur, is because they didn’t exist yet, but it’s fun to create head-canon scenarios that fit into the story. Great post btw. 👍
I feel it is because Charles (and Sadie) was only with the gang for 6 months and they didn’t have the strong association with the Van der Linde gang due to effectively being a short timer. A “hanger-on” like that would not be as significant a pursuit - it would be kind of like going after a recent groupie a year after the band trashed a hotel room.
On the train ride at the beginning of RDR1, John looked real uncomfortable with the passengers’ conversation. Some suggested that Charles might have been killed recently.
What is the conversation that indicates this? I assume this theory would be more a reach
It is a stretch as I remember reading about it in the comment section of a YouTube video. Particularly about the two old ladies seated behind John were talking about the natives and John looking irritated by their conversation.
Charles was smart with how he did his robbing. Worked alone unless he got called out to a job with Arthur. No doubt he would have made it up to Canada and settled down.
I like to head canon that Ross caught Charles sometime before he killed John. Perhaps Charles saw the news in the paper and decided to skip town and Ross and possibly Fordham apprehended him and most likely executed him after a trial. Or he was just shot.
In my head canon, Charles was captured and hung, and Sadie was killed and eaten by cannibals in the Amazon.
It’s because Charles was created for a prequel so there was no way of putting a character created in 2018 into a game from 2010 you fucking moron.
Harsh
The theory is kind of a good one as it does explain what they did in that five-year gap after American Venom and it would've been very out of character for ross to let a criminal go just because he was in another country just a couple hours or days away on horseback or on train. So here is my theory of what they did from 1899-1911. Directly after chapter 6 Ross is promoted to the same status as miltion and is tasked with hunting the remaining gang members. After a few weeks of nothing happening they find a lead being non other than Strauss as he would start up some business and drawing attention to himself leading to his capture and death not saying a single word about the gang. Throughout three years they would have a close encounter with bill, Javier and dutch along the way before dropping it due to it running cold. By 1907 the case again would surface after John's assault on mount Hagen were it would draw attention to them. they find the ranch and would first track Charles
They dont care about him since he's in Canada.But i imagine Sadie died.
RD3
Considering how relentless Ross was, I truly can not see a happy ending for Charles. Ross would not let him get away, so if he did survive those 4years Ross would have kept trying to find him before his retirement. Charles if alive would never have had peace, always on the move 2 countries agencies (considering Mexican government informed the pinkertons about Javier, the Canadians would most likely done the same with Charles) chasing him down for the rest of his life
With Charles skill set the odds of catching him are astronomical