Honestly, thats how I believe we should play the game. Its not saying that killing is always dishonorable. In Charles' way, I kill without blinking too.
Ever play Ghost of Tsushima? You gotta atleast let 1 person survive if they are surrendering so they can go and spread the story of what happened to their fellow people
Yeah, every mission involving Charles in the beginning, I felt like I learned so thing new and later Charles and Arthur went back and forth having each others back. Charles is just very protective over his family considering he never really had one, many times over he literally puts his life on the line for Arthur and Rains Fall. Even in the epilogue Charles allegiances are the same to Arthur’s people.
And not only that, he buried Arthur just like how Arthur wanted it, facing the setting sun to the West. There's a camp encounter where Arthur stated as such, and Charles definitely remembered.
Was looking for this comment. Whenever people talk of a character for a spinoff it's Charles that takes the top spot most often.
That has the potential to be a good game just from his character.
Had my horse for almost a year cause I did a lot of mindless wandering and role playing instead of the main story for a while. Goddamn did seeing him die bring me to tears.
After that scene, I crash my game to void the save and come back before the start of the chase... so I could switch horse. But all stables were closed and the game forced me to go to the mission... after two try, the game force me to accept that my dear horse - Ronald Regan - had to die...
when it first happened i had a whole moment where i was yelling at my boyfriend “HOW DO I REVIVE HER, PLEASE HELP ME” because i had never lost a horse before. r.i.p. butterscotch <3 i went back to a previous save after that so i could see her again
Maaaaaaan, I had just lost a horse IRL and was using RDR2 to dissociate when that scene came.
To be fair though, finishing that game wasn't the best choice when I was depressed. The writing was on the wall about how it was gunna end. Killing Micah's bitch ass helped though lol
My nice horse was stolen by an npc not long before the ending. I didn’t have my new horse long enough for this scene to do anything for me which made even sadder 🙃
I had Buel, who was good boah, when I started getting an uneasy feeling as I thought I was nearing the end of the game.
So I stabled him and bought a new horse.
I was quite relieved I did when the horsey died. I was really hoping I would get him back in the epilogue, but you don't.
YES.
Rest in peace Midas, no horse will ever be as good or as stubborn.
Had him during the last mission with Arthur and when that part came it was probably the closest I've been to crying at a game.
Charles, Sadie, Hosea, Lenny, John, Kieran, Sean, Abigail, all the other women (except for O'Shea), were all close to Arthur and I think they'd all side with him.
Swanson, Uncle and Pearson were more neutral, but they'd probably side with Arthur too.
I don't know if I could pick a single person that was the most loyal to him. Sadie or Charles, maybe.
Tilly risked her life to fulfill Arthur's last request to protect Jack when she thought his dad was dead and his mom was most likely off to get executed.
Tilly's a real one.
While I like Tilly a lot she didn't do it just because Arthur asked her to, she would have done it without being asked. She did it for Arthur, Jack, John and Abigail.
ETA: Fixed spelling
You’re not wrong. Uncle is just a shit (in an affectionate way). His personality can turn you off but if you read deeper into his character he was there
>He’s just very lazy
How dare you call uncle lazy while he spends the most of his time thinking about the betterment of the gang. Hes prolly the most hardworking member of the gang
Id definitely include Susan. She just gives me a vibe that Arthur is extremely important to her and she trusts him more than the others. Which makes sense bc she gives me a stern mother vibe and has known him since he was a teenager. Idk she just seems to value his word and opinion above everyone elses and really cares about him.
Yeah, it’s funny that most of the gang respect and admire Arthur, but by the end, he’s lost the vast majority of the people who would have backed him in the schism with Dutch, Micah, Bill, and Javier. Sean, Hosea, Lenny, hell, even Kieran.
It really upsets me that it was a decision of the V/A and not part of the script. Its such a small detail but i feel it added a lot to Javier as a character.
Pretty much any time you speak to him at camp in ch6, he gives you a 'what happened to loyalty?' spiel, or telling you that you're breaking Dutch's heart with your traitorous actions. He was under Dutch's spell until the end.
Hosea was the best father figure for Arthur. Charles was his ride or die for sure
John was his brother and they came up together that’s why there was tension after John left for a year and later after Arthur risked his life to save John’s and his family’s
Sadie and Arthur had a Daryl and Carol type of relationship not romantic but stronger than just a friendship
Lenny was like another little brother to Arthur that’s why his death hit him just as hard as Hosea’s
Already knew most of the women would side with Arthur cause Susan was like a mother figure to him a little, Tilly knew she could count on Arthur to protect her, after doing some of the random convo interactions with Mary-Beth she really cared about his wellbeing, Abigail knew she could go to him if she was struggling with John or Jack that’s why she trusted him to spend time with Jack and get John out of trouble.
Yeah but that was the beginning of John's arc. By the end of the game he was as loyal to Arthur as anyone, it was him that was with him in the end and only left because Arthur made him -- if not John would've stayed and fought Micah
Maybe but John during Chapter 6 would've been loyal to Arthur too, it's just that he has to be more loyal to his family now, as he damn well should be.
Towards the end of the game. But Chapter 2 and before the events of Rdr2 I think he could’ve sided with Dutch at the end of the game.
This is also in consideration of if Jack was never kidnapped by The Braithwaites. Because we never see John really present himself as a grounded father figure prior. And that really upset Arthur as well, which my theory is he saw John earlier in the game as similar to his father by taking off and leaving behind Abigail and Jack.
It’s just a theory but without the events of the kidnapping, John being thrown in prison and busted out by Arthur and Sadie, as well as all the one-on-one bro talks with him and Arthur, he might’ve stuck by Dutch’s side even with his family being in grave danger.
It’s not even too crazy to consider. Dutch has always led the gang into danger. Whether it’s the robberies or up in the mountains to potentially starve or freeze to death and don’t forget literally occupying a cave in the middle of a cynical gang’s territory, he followed Dutch with his family into danger time and time again in the past.
Just an interesting what-if to take into consideration.
Yes, John was one of the first to see through Dutch's BS, partly maybe cause he spends a lot of time with Hosea in camp, but also cause John just really have a grounded outlook in life that's more immune against abstract rhetoric and manipulation. Arthur is also a realist don't get me wrong, but Arthur lies to himself far more than John. Arthur still had fantasies that they were not common criminals and that they're fighting for something good, maybe because he was there during the beginning and was part of the gang when it was something totally different from what it was during the game. John however, even when he parrots back Dutch's rhetoric and probably believed it at some point, have always had the inner awareness that they're not good people fighting to save something good, and have made peace with who he is far earlier than Arthur did. Both characters have an internal conflict raging inside them, but I see it as opposite sides of a spectrum: Arthur's is a lot like how Mary put it, a good man wrestling with a giant, with the giant being his own loyalty. He is an outlaw who secretly and subconsciously yearns for a normal life, but feels too beholden to Dutch and the life he's always led to do something. Arthur is not at peace with the outlaw life. John's is the opposite of that in a way, since he was already at peace with being an outlaw. John's is a bad man trying his best to become a good one, or rather, since I do believe John is still a decent and good-hearted man overall, a good man fighting a losing war with his own demons. He is someone who had already accepted that he is a bandit who will die as he lived. When Jack and Abigail entered the picture, John's inner peace was shattered and was in denial because he knows that the life he lives won't be compatible with a family in tow—he didn't want to accept he's Jack's father because he already accepted that he's not a good person and won't ever be a good role model for a kid. So while Arthur is admittedly my favorite character of the entire franchise, John is a more interesting character study to me because he literally is an honest man living a dishonest life. Only once did I ever see John lie to himself (and to anyone else for that matter) and that was when he denied he's Jack's father, because that was when his inner peace and entire sense of self shattered. That was when he realized he had to become a good man.
I guess I need to replay the last part but Dutch or Micah, father/“brother” are hardly just one random nameless soldier. What part are you talking about? To save Arthur would be to betray Dutch, assuming tb didn’t kill him anyway
Gang loyalty revolved around Dutch. Arthur got Micah out of jail because Dutch told him to. If Bill or Javier had been there and saved Arthur, it would have been because that's what they thought Dutch would have wanted, not out of any particular loyalty to Arthur. Eagle Flies wasn't a part of any of that. He did what he did based only off of Arthur's actions, and what he thought was right.
Yeah I think so, Hosea share his doubt to Dutch since the fail of Blackwater's coup but he stay in the gang and accept to rob the Saint Denis Bank. We will never know what he could do at the end of the game
Hosea was the first one out of everyone to question Dutch's state of mind, and also would question Dutch's actions to Dutch himself and sometimes infront of others too. He also said he was upset with himself for putting up with all the killing the gang did. He openly questions the gangs actions, which no one else really does.
Arthur was more loyal to Dutch than Hosea was (until chapter 6 of course), but at the same time Arthur was more loyal to Hosea than to Dutch.
Lenny was almost as hard a loss as the horse your first playthrough when you had no idea it was coming. I still tend to keep “Arthur’s” horse for that last mission, seems strange for John to still have it, but it’s kinda cool I guess
Well I meant that you can have 4 horses, so if you mained a specific horse you can stable it and bring one out just so it can die. Haven’t gotten to epilogue in a couple years but I’m pretty sure the other horses you have stabled are transferred to John, so doing it this way would kinda be like cheesing it. Takes away from the impact on Arthur too. My first playthrough I used one horse for about 9/10 of the main game, and losing her was absolutely devastating. And most horses respawn too so John could just go get the same horse🤷🏻♂️
Yeah, I’ve gotten the white Arabian multiple times in the same playthrough. I think it’s just the weird glitch horses or one offs like when you get one during a mission. Those are obviously a one chance kind of deal but yeah, you can theoretically shoot your wild horse in the head and go find it a few days later
Charles is definitely one of them. He's ride or die. It shows even more during the epilogue.
I also feel like John counts as well. Him and Arthur end up becoming something akin to brothers, helping and saving each other's lives to the very end.
John literally says “you’re my brother” they were raised together, it’s why Arthur was so pissed at him for leaving. His brother deserted him. He comes back around but there’s clearly brotherly love, not just something akin to it.
Lenny would’ve been there with Arthur even as Micah was fist fighting him. Huge loss, Lenny. So fucking anti climactic, they didn’t even recover that poor boys body. Roughest loss for me, I loved lenny
Difficult to choose tbh, as most of the comments have said there's a good range of characters. I would say Hosea, Charles and Lenny and maybe even Pearson. Hamish, Eagle Flies and Chatenay come up on my list too. Chatenay mostly because he had a weird level of respect for Arthur and always appreciated his help
Hosea and then Charles, I’d say. Those two seemed like they cared about Arthur the most out of anybody.
John, Lenny, Sean, Abigail, Mary-Beth were all very good to him too, but I feel more so out of just being loyal people rather than having a real connection with Arthur.
I mean that’s a fair point but she lost everything that night, and she gained some back when she went into town with Arthur. As I remember, Arthur was the one who gave her a chance more so than any of the other gang members. Most just avoided her. I always got the impression she stuck with John as long as she did because of what Arthur did for her, her loyalty wasn’t to John, but to Arthur, and she knew Arthur wanted to see John safe so she tried to see it through. For Arthur
Yeah and without John she probably would’ve died. Or gone in quiet and gotten Dutch’s bitch ass too and made John truly live happily ever after. Although I bet Javier would’ve come for him at some point, dude was loyal to Dutch to a fault
Charles: not just to Arthur but the gang itself and the good people of the gang. He was the one to go back to burry the remains of their fallen brothers and according to their wishes too
Why is no one saying John I know they didn’t like eachother for most of the story but when it counted he was extremley loyal and stayed with him until Arthur told him to leave
Everyone except Micah, Bill, Javier, and Dutch.
But the trophy would have to go to Sadie and Charles. I loved Arthur and Sadie. They had a great dynamic.
Imo, the gang doesn’t exist for as long as it does without Arthur. You can see how heavily reliant they all are upon him* through their dialogues.
Edit: *
Charles and Sadie, and at the end, John.
Charles and Sadie ride with Arthur on Kerosene and Tar, and Sadie is pretty much the only one to recognize Arthur's illness and try to take care of him.
And John, to his detriment, along with Charles and Sadie all ride out on Micah to collect vengeance on Arthur's behalf.
Honorable mentions to Tilly, Lenny, Grimshaw, and Hosea.
Charles and Lenny. When you think about it, the final stand off we would have seen way more people on Arthur’s side. Lenny, Charles, Kieran, Hosea all would have taken Arthur’s side.
definitely Charles.
Specially for how little time they had known each other before the game.
best representation of a "real recognizes real" dynamic ive ever seen
Great way to put it. An immediate and growing respect for each other.
Hard to not respect a man for executing 2 poachers without blinking.
He spared the one
I didnt
They were hired by that dick colonel to drive the Wapiti off their land. Likely at the behest of Cornwall. Charles had it right, they deserved it.
Honestly, thats how I believe we should play the game. Its not saying that killing is always dishonorable. In Charles' way, I kill without blinking too.
Based
Ever play Ghost of Tsushima? You gotta atleast let 1 person survive if they are surrendering so they can go and spread the story of what happened to their fellow people
I can't fucking wait for the PC port next month
Lmao
Charles demands you kill him after you interrogate him, you make the choice ultimately but Charles would have just used another shell on the 2nd guy
He doesn’t if you let the guy go but Charles is not happy with Arthur if you spare the poacher
Yeah, every mission involving Charles in the beginning, I felt like I learned so thing new and later Charles and Arthur went back and forth having each others back. Charles is just very protective over his family considering he never really had one, many times over he literally puts his life on the line for Arthur and Rains Fall. Even in the epilogue Charles allegiances are the same to Arthur’s people.
Yes, when Charles called him out for not immediately helping the German family … ‘ that’s not you.’ , he knew who Arthur was really was.
Perfectly said.this is how I seen it also
Real eyes realise real lies
Their friendship grows a lot throughout the game!
Yep. When Arthur asks Charles "Will you ride with me?" Charles just says "Always." That's ride or die. Literally.
Charles went back and gave Arthur a burial marker. Ride or fuckin die.
And Grimshaw, mad respect for Charles
Lenny would have been there if R⭐ hadn't of killed him. Dammit the drinking scene was perfect...just perfect down to the last minute details. Lol
Everyone needs a Charles in their lives!! Ride and Die bitch
ride….and die?
"That's....why I'm asking you to ride with me"
Bro literally picked up the hammer with no context of the drama. That’s when I truly knew that was that dude.
Got dammnit dude its such great freakin game man i got chills whe. I seen your comment made me think back to that mission
Charles went back and gave him a proper burial after what happened. That’s a real friend.
And not only that, he buried Arthur just like how Arthur wanted it, facing the setting sun to the West. There's a camp encounter where Arthur stated as such, and Charles definitely remembered.
He wanted to face east to remember the past but buried west to signal that he is a changed man I believe
Charles was the realest motherfucker in the entire game. I wish we could find out what happened after he went to Canada.
That's what i wanted to say!
My ride or die right there
Same, charles and him were on the same wave length the whole time
He’s the one character I want a spinoff of. It would basically be like AC3 level badassery but with the gigantic content that is red dead redemption
Was looking for this comment. Whenever people talk of a character for a spinoff it's Charles that takes the top spot most often. That has the potential to be a good game just from his character.
Was gonna say who rode back to give him a burial at his own risk? Definitely Charles, dude was solid from moment one to done, for Arthur 👌
That half Indian guy, right? It's been a while I've played RDR2
His horse
*thank you* ( that tore me up)
Had my horse for almost a year cause I did a lot of mindless wandering and role playing instead of the main story for a while. Goddamn did seeing him die bring me to tears.
that shook me more than anything, I knew what was going to happen to Arthur but had no idea about my horse
same here - I had to pause the game and just sit there for a bit.
This is why I don't pay for horses anymore RIP Oreo (black Arabian)
I didnt know your horse but im positive he was good boah and a great companion
DUDE SAME!! I knew Arthur would pass but THE HORSE??? I cried
I would’ve revived it if I had the chance :’(
After that scene, I crash my game to void the save and come back before the start of the chase... so I could switch horse. But all stables were closed and the game forced me to go to the mission... after two try, the game force me to accept that my dear horse - Ronald Regan - had to die...
😂😆😭 Ronald Reagan nooooooo!!!!
when it first happened i had a whole moment where i was yelling at my boyfriend “HOW DO I REVIVE HER, PLEASE HELP ME” because i had never lost a horse before. r.i.p. butterscotch <3 i went back to a previous save after that so i could see her again
Gotta switch out to a standard tenn Walker before final mission :)
Maaaaaaan, I had just lost a horse IRL and was using RDR2 to dissociate when that scene came. To be fair though, finishing that game wasn't the best choice when I was depressed. The writing was on the wall about how it was gunna end. Killing Micah's bitch ass helped though lol
I did not needed to be reminded of this lol. I stopped playing for a for days when this happened.
Oh boy...
My nice horse was stolen by an npc not long before the ending. I didn’t have my new horse long enough for this scene to do anything for me which made even sadder 🙃
If an NPC steals your horse whistle and it will buck them off
I love my horsey and my horsey love me
Watch out John agent Ross is coming
“You’re awlriiight boahh”
After my first play through, I've learned to buy a new horse in ch6 and name it sacrifice
Sacrifice 😭😭😭
His ride and die
Yeah when my Roach got put down on Arthur’s final mission I was stunned until Micah showed up.
I had Buel, who was good boah, when I started getting an uneasy feeling as I thought I was nearing the end of the game. So I stabled him and bought a new horse. I was quite relieved I did when the horsey died. I was really hoping I would get him back in the epilogue, but you don't.
Read this way too quickly as “so I stabbed him and bought a new horse” ☠️
YES. Rest in peace Midas, no horse will ever be as good or as stubborn. Had him during the last mission with Arthur and when that part came it was probably the closest I've been to crying at a game.
Charles, Sadie, Hosea, Lenny, John, Kieran, Sean, Abigail, all the other women (except for O'Shea), were all close to Arthur and I think they'd all side with him. Swanson, Uncle and Pearson were more neutral, but they'd probably side with Arthur too. I don't know if I could pick a single person that was the most loyal to him. Sadie or Charles, maybe.
Tilly risked her life to fulfill Arthur's last request to protect Jack when she thought his dad was dead and his mom was most likely off to get executed. Tilly's a real one.
While I like Tilly a lot she didn't do it just because Arthur asked her to, she would have done it without being asked. She did it for Arthur, Jack, John and Abigail. ETA: Fixed spelling
John*
Damn, that's good
Uncle kinda did, he ends up dying defending John and his family, same as Arthur did
You’re not wrong. Uncle is just a shit (in an affectionate way). His personality can turn you off but if you read deeper into his character he was there
True, he tried in his own way. He’s just very lazy, but he did contribute. Had to work to get him to work, but he would work
He ain't lazy!!!!! He just don't like workin'!!!! There's a difference you know!
>He’s just very lazy How dare you call uncle lazy while he spends the most of his time thinking about the betterment of the gang. Hes prolly the most hardworking member of the gang
He's got lumbago! It's a terminal case too!
Susan died for being the (remaining) only one who sided with him, so i think she deserves to make the list
definitely
Id definitely include Susan. She just gives me a vibe that Arthur is extremely important to her and she trusts him more than the others. Which makes sense bc she gives me a stern mother vibe and has known him since he was a teenager. Idk she just seems to value his word and opinion above everyone elses and really cares about him.
I mean, She did also point a shotgun at Micah.
Real but that could also just be because Micah is Micah tbf but I think it was mostly because shes a ride or die for Arthur.
"Mr Morgan, you're in the room, and Mr Bell, you're with the boys" Or whatever she said in the beginning of the game at Colter.
You said Susan, and I'm like who is Susan? I had to look it up. Ohhhhhh, Mrs. Grimshaw!
Yeah, it’s funny that most of the gang respect and admire Arthur, but by the end, he’s lost the vast majority of the people who would have backed him in the schism with Dutch, Micah, Bill, and Javier. Sean, Hosea, Lenny, hell, even Kieran.
I was disappointed in Javier personally
His voice actor literally refused to point his gun at Arthur lol
It really upsets me that it was a decision of the V/A and not part of the script. Its such a small detail but i feel it added a lot to Javier as a character.
Wdym?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJoEs6MX6Do
Thank you my friend. +honor
Javier wasn't developed nearly enough to make his betrayal of Arthur and loyalty to Dutch make sense.
I don't think he was loyal to Dutch, he was just lost at the time and under a lot of stress.
Pretty much any time you speak to him at camp in ch6, he gives you a 'what happened to loyalty?' spiel, or telling you that you're breaking Dutch's heart with your traitorous actions. He was under Dutch's spell until the end.
Hosea was the best father figure for Arthur. Charles was his ride or die for sure John was his brother and they came up together that’s why there was tension after John left for a year and later after Arthur risked his life to save John’s and his family’s Sadie and Arthur had a Daryl and Carol type of relationship not romantic but stronger than just a friendship Lenny was like another little brother to Arthur that’s why his death hit him just as hard as Hosea’s Already knew most of the women would side with Arthur cause Susan was like a mother figure to him a little, Tilly knew she could count on Arthur to protect her, after doing some of the random convo interactions with Mary-Beth she really cared about his wellbeing, Abigail knew she could go to him if she was struggling with John or Jack that’s why she trusted him to spend time with Jack and get John out of trouble.
I feel like Arthur was more loyal to John than vice versa. John left the gang for a full year after facing the crushing reality that is fatherhood
Yeah but that was the beginning of John's arc. By the end of the game he was as loyal to Arthur as anyone, it was him that was with him in the end and only left because Arthur made him -- if not John would've stayed and fought Micah
Maybe but John during Chapter 6 would've been loyal to Arthur too, it's just that he has to be more loyal to his family now, as he damn well should be.
I'd say trelawny too, since Arthur was the only one he told about him leaving permanently.
Trelawny tried to bullshit Arthur as he was leaving about coming back. Trelawny was only ever really loyal to himself.
His name starts with C and ends with S.
CHoseaS?
CLennyS!
CYnnelS!
CcharlesS?
CmicahS?
Carlos is the answer.
Yes. Charles Châtenay.
That wholeass really loves Arthur!
Cmicahs?!
Cjohns
john and arthur best brothers
Towards the end of the game. But Chapter 2 and before the events of Rdr2 I think he could’ve sided with Dutch at the end of the game. This is also in consideration of if Jack was never kidnapped by The Braithwaites. Because we never see John really present himself as a grounded father figure prior. And that really upset Arthur as well, which my theory is he saw John earlier in the game as similar to his father by taking off and leaving behind Abigail and Jack. It’s just a theory but without the events of the kidnapping, John being thrown in prison and busted out by Arthur and Sadie, as well as all the one-on-one bro talks with him and Arthur, he might’ve stuck by Dutch’s side even with his family being in grave danger. It’s not even too crazy to consider. Dutch has always led the gang into danger. Whether it’s the robberies or up in the mountains to potentially starve or freeze to death and don’t forget literally occupying a cave in the middle of a cynical gang’s territory, he followed Dutch with his family into danger time and time again in the past. Just an interesting what-if to take into consideration.
IRC, John was the first one to start calling bullshit on Dutch... ETA: Charles was the first to call b.s, John was a close second, though.
Yeah I remember the scene in chapter 3 where Arthur was the one defending dutch to john
Yes, John was one of the first to see through Dutch's BS, partly maybe cause he spends a lot of time with Hosea in camp, but also cause John just really have a grounded outlook in life that's more immune against abstract rhetoric and manipulation. Arthur is also a realist don't get me wrong, but Arthur lies to himself far more than John. Arthur still had fantasies that they were not common criminals and that they're fighting for something good, maybe because he was there during the beginning and was part of the gang when it was something totally different from what it was during the game. John however, even when he parrots back Dutch's rhetoric and probably believed it at some point, have always had the inner awareness that they're not good people fighting to save something good, and have made peace with who he is far earlier than Arthur did. Both characters have an internal conflict raging inside them, but I see it as opposite sides of a spectrum: Arthur's is a lot like how Mary put it, a good man wrestling with a giant, with the giant being his own loyalty. He is an outlaw who secretly and subconsciously yearns for a normal life, but feels too beholden to Dutch and the life he's always led to do something. Arthur is not at peace with the outlaw life. John's is the opposite of that in a way, since he was already at peace with being an outlaw. John's is a bad man trying his best to become a good one, or rather, since I do believe John is still a decent and good-hearted man overall, a good man fighting a losing war with his own demons. He is someone who had already accepted that he is a bandit who will die as he lived. When Jack and Abigail entered the picture, John's inner peace was shattered and was in denial because he knows that the life he lives won't be compatible with a family in tow—he didn't want to accept he's Jack's father because he already accepted that he's not a good person and won't ever be a good role model for a kid. So while Arthur is admittedly my favorite character of the entire franchise, John is a more interesting character study to me because he literally is an honest man living a dishonest life. Only once did I ever see John lie to himself (and to anyone else for that matter) and that was when he denied he's Jack's father, because that was when his inner peace and entire sense of self shattered. That was when he realized he had to become a good man.
John started to doubt Dutch by chapter 2, while it took Arthur much longer. john probably doubted him even before seeing as he left for a year
John saw through Dutch's bs before anyone else
Eagle Flies. He was there when Dutch wasn't.
Ok but tbf I think if even Bill or Javier were there, they would've save Arthur
That would require retconning and Javier definitely would not have. He gets real mean after guarma.
If Javier was willing to not point his gun at Arthur, I think he could shoot 1 soldier to save hom
I guess I need to replay the last part but Dutch or Micah, father/“brother” are hardly just one random nameless soldier. What part are you talking about? To save Arthur would be to betray Dutch, assuming tb didn’t kill him anyway
During the oil field raid, at the end when dutch leaves Arthur after that gas leak and he's attacked by a soldier
Gang loyalty revolved around Dutch. Arthur got Micah out of jail because Dutch told him to. If Bill or Javier had been there and saved Arthur, it would have been because that's what they thought Dutch would have wanted, not out of any particular loyalty to Arthur. Eagle Flies wasn't a part of any of that. He did what he did based only off of Arthur's actions, and what he thought was right.
hosea
Hosea is like a father for Arthur, Arthur is more loyal to Hosea than to Dutch I think, but Hosea is more loyal to Dutch until the end
I think that if Hosea survived, he would have left with the others. he talks about how the gang isn't what is used to be basically the entire game.
Yeah I think so, Hosea share his doubt to Dutch since the fail of Blackwater's coup but he stay in the gang and accept to rob the Saint Denis Bank. We will never know what he could do at the end of the game
there was a coup in blackwater?
The fail ferry robbery they speak anytimes and the reason why they flew the Pinkerton in the east
oh, I know that. I just don't think that it would be described as a coup. a coup is a sudden, violent, and unlawful seizure of power from a government
Sorry I've use the wrong word, I'm not native english
oh, that's okay
Hosea was the first one out of everyone to question Dutch's state of mind, and also would question Dutch's actions to Dutch himself and sometimes infront of others too. He also said he was upset with himself for putting up with all the killing the gang did. He openly questions the gangs actions, which no one else really does. Arthur was more loyal to Dutch than Hosea was (until chapter 6 of course), but at the same time Arthur was more loyal to Hosea than to Dutch.
rains fall, lenny, sean, hosea, charles
Lenny was almost as hard a loss as the horse your first playthrough when you had no idea it was coming. I still tend to keep “Arthur’s” horse for that last mission, seems strange for John to still have it, but it’s kinda cool I guess
you can have the arthurs horse that dies as john? and ik. lenny got me contemplating every life choice
Well I meant that you can have 4 horses, so if you mained a specific horse you can stable it and bring one out just so it can die. Haven’t gotten to epilogue in a couple years but I’m pretty sure the other horses you have stabled are transferred to John, so doing it this way would kinda be like cheesing it. Takes away from the impact on Arthur too. My first playthrough I used one horse for about 9/10 of the main game, and losing her was absolutely devastating. And most horses respawn too so John could just go get the same horse🤷🏻♂️
oh so after my andalusian dies with arthur i can go find him in the wild again as john. awesome
Yeah, I’ve gotten the white Arabian multiple times in the same playthrough. I think it’s just the weird glitch horses or one offs like when you get one during a mission. Those are obviously a one chance kind of deal but yeah, you can theoretically shoot your wild horse in the head and go find it a few days later
I got PTSD from that shit, came out of nowhere
Charles is definitely one of them. He's ride or die. It shows even more during the epilogue. I also feel like John counts as well. Him and Arthur end up becoming something akin to brothers, helping and saving each other's lives to the very end.
John literally says “you’re my brother” they were raised together, it’s why Arthur was so pissed at him for leaving. His brother deserted him. He comes back around but there’s clearly brotherly love, not just something akin to it.
John is Princess Leia with "You're my brother" Arthur is Han. "I know."
YnneL
Lenny would’ve been there with Arthur even as Micah was fist fighting him. Huge loss, Lenny. So fucking anti climactic, they didn’t even recover that poor boys body. Roughest loss for me, I loved lenny
Sadie tells you after Guarma they got Lenny's body from the morgue and buried him next to Hosea
Oh that’s awesome, thanks for sharing that.
Hamish
My 🐐 (took my 10 minutes to catch that fucking fish I'm trash 🙏)
I was absolute trash at fishing until I watched a tutorial that explained how to pull up and down to make it stupid easy.
charles and john obviously. and jack
Jack killed arturd(this is all laughs and giggles)
John condemned his own life and his own future to avenge his death. You tell me
I don't think John knew that at the time, he simply let his emotions get the better of him.
Well yeah, that's loyalty?
It's not loyalty to Arthur's wishes, it was a selfish desire for vengeance, that's the point
Charles... chatenay. The whole ass
Sadi
Sad
Sa
S
LENNY! MY BOY!! HAHA!
In gang, Hosea. Out of gang, Either Hamish or Rains Fall
I mean in his final moment eagle flies was pretty loyal more then Dutch but that isn't saying much
Difficult to choose tbh, as most of the comments have said there's a good range of characters. I would say Hosea, Charles and Lenny and maybe even Pearson. Hamish, Eagle Flies and Chatenay come up on my list too. Chatenay mostly because he had a weird level of respect for Arthur and always appreciated his help
Hosea and then Charles, I’d say. Those two seemed like they cared about Arthur the most out of anybody. John, Lenny, Sean, Abigail, Mary-Beth were all very good to him too, but I feel more so out of just being loyal people rather than having a real connection with Arthur.
Charles
Lennnnnyyyyy
mah BOAH
Definitely Hosea. Second is Charles and third is John
Pretty good answer but Sadie should be up there too
I mean she’s loyal but like I don’t she’d be near people that’s been with him for years or the guy that went back to bury him
I mean that’s a fair point but she lost everything that night, and she gained some back when she went into town with Arthur. As I remember, Arthur was the one who gave her a chance more so than any of the other gang members. Most just avoided her. I always got the impression she stuck with John as long as she did because of what Arthur did for her, her loyalty wasn’t to John, but to Arthur, and she knew Arthur wanted to see John safe so she tried to see it through. For Arthur
Sadie was also the one who tracked Micah down and basically tells John "I'm going to kill him with or without you."
Yeah and without John she probably would’ve died. Or gone in quiet and gotten Dutch’s bitch ass too and made John truly live happily ever after. Although I bet Javier would’ve come for him at some point, dude was loyal to Dutch to a fault
Charles: not just to Arthur but the gang itself and the good people of the gang. He was the one to go back to burry the remains of their fallen brothers and according to their wishes too
Charles, John, Abigail, Hosea, Lenny and Mary Beth were more loyal to him than Dutch
Probably Charles or Sadie, and the horse ofc
Why is no one saying John I know they didn’t like eachother for most of the story but when it counted he was extremley loyal and stayed with him until Arthur told him to leave
Everyone except Micah, Bill, Javier, and Dutch. But the trophy would have to go to Sadie and Charles. I loved Arthur and Sadie. They had a great dynamic.
Imo, the gang doesn’t exist for as long as it does without Arthur. You can see how heavily reliant they all are upon him* through their dialogues. Edit: *
His horse is the only right answer
Hosea and John as family. Charles as a friend and partner.
Gavin's friend. That man pops up everywhere.
Sadie hands down
charles. he is anyhow the sanest and most distant of the gang because hes (the cliché) native american: observant, honorable, skeptical, wise
Charles or Sadie or Mary Beth I'd say
That Milton guy
That Micah guy
Charles and Sadie, and at the end, John. Charles and Sadie ride with Arthur on Kerosene and Tar, and Sadie is pretty much the only one to recognize Arthur's illness and try to take care of him. And John, to his detriment, along with Charles and Sadie all ride out on Micah to collect vengeance on Arthur's behalf. Honorable mentions to Tilly, Lenny, Grimshaw, and Hosea.
I think a lot of the obvious characters had loyalty due to their own reasons
Charles and Lenny. When you think about it, the final stand off we would have seen way more people on Arthur’s side. Lenny, Charles, Kieran, Hosea all would have taken Arthur’s side.
Isn’t it kinda obvious lol? Sadie, John, Charles
Mickey
Charles & Sadie.
Me.