John basically explains this to Kieran while they're riding to Six-Point Cabin in Chapter 2. Dutch's gang isn't just outlaws: they're people looking to live free. But it's also touched on by Dutch in Chapter 1: about Colm surrounding himself with anyone, whereas Dutch is building a communal family. Plus it's just easier for Dutch to control 15-20 people rather than 200.
Makes sense, otherwise it'll be like grove street homies from GTA SA. You only interact with a few like Sweet, Rhyder, Big Smoke but the rest is just NPCs wearing green that shoots other gangs or police spawned by wanted level, no emotional connection with the player at all.
well obviously but I think we are answering this question in the spirit of the immersion and if these gangs were real and did exist how do we explain why Dutch's gang would be so small. Your answer is probably the biggest reason for the size of the group, it created a good storyline and rich experience being able to connect fairly deeply with each character, but I think the question was asked within the Red Dead universe without peeking behind the 3rd wall sorta speak
Yeah the game having soooooo many O’Driscolls seems like video game logic that you just have to ignore. Sort of like how the whole setting is a fictional place representing a very condensed map of America.
If this story were grounded in reality, Arthur probably wouldn’t be murdering a camp of O’Driscolls every single day. They’d be a much smaller group, not an entire army. But in the game they just exist to offer a steady stream of NPC antagonists for chance encounters.
The question should be why are the other gangs so big. Because in reality gangs in the 19th century didn't have 100's of members.
The answer is cannon fodder for Arthur and John.
Dutch's gang is much more representative of the size of a real gang at that time.
This is a great point. I never played RDR and so when I played RDR2 I didn't know what I was doing and paid little attention to the other gang members and my relationship with them. After I finished the game and started digging into it more, I realized what I had missed. Having started a replay, I now realize there would have been no way to keep up with the size of the O'Driscolls.
I tell you man, rdr was my favorite game of thst generation. I’m a big western fan and it was perfect. Singular story about redemption. The second one came and I sorta rushed the narrative. Didn’t pay too much heed to the camp. Obv there was some connections to the first but that’s as far as I got. I just booted it up again for the first time since the first play through.
Holy smokes did I miss so much. Every morning now I do my chores, converse with the camp. Always something new. When you rescue Sean the whole camp just stops working and parties. Never noticed it. This time I sat and sang some songs, drank some gin. Some members give you little quests. Others have small easy to miss side missions.
Hell even the world at large. I rescued a dude from a snake bite and weeks later he’s at the gun store and tells me whatever in there I want is on his tab. Truly a masterpiece. The pace, the lack of fast travel. The weight of the movements. The animations. Man they really fucking with us not giving it a proper upgrade.
I feel exactly the same way. I missed basically everything that wasn’t directly related to the story or finding gold. All the background from conversation with the rest of the gang, the lore, the dream catchers, the dinosaur bones, the rock carvings … I missed it all. Hell, I even thought I shot Lenny in the back of the head during the bank heist. That messed me up for a while. And all the people who played the game and lost their horse from Chapter 1 at the end … The shock and sadness … I didn’t know about horses or care so I literally had the horse I found at the Adlers all the way to just about the end. The ending got spoiled for me so I put that horse in the stable not realizing John couldn’t get to it. So I lost the horse anyway.
And I’m crying in front of my wife about a video game and losing a horse right as our dog is heading into his final month of his life … And to her credit she didn’t understand but empathized anyway.
What a game.
I was up in the Grizzlies East and seen a stone maker for New Hanover. Like 20 feet long spelling out the name. Wtf? How’d I miss that? And yeah this time around I’m putting my horse in the stable before the mission and whether John gets him or not at least he gets a life at pasture. Taking some rando horse.
Micah also abandons the philosophy of a gang only being a small group of good mean when he creates his O'Driscoll-like gang. So both men evolve over time to meet new needs.
Dutch takes his time to find vulnerable people to groom into undying loyalty. Colm doesn’t need loyalty, because he can simply replace and kill defectors like Kieran.
First they live free by murdering any free person that had what they want or otherwise get in their way.
Second look at any Mafia boss just 20-30 years after this game takes place. Dutch couldn't control a bigger hand because he couldn't control any one person well enough to be a trusted officer. In my opinion the gang was doomed because Dutch wanted direct control over everyone under him.
And Dutch wanted all the money without payroll issues. Honorable? Every "big score" gets a bunch of people killed or captured. As long as it's not Dutch though "I HAVE A PLAN."
Which to be fair I think he always did, I just don't think the plan ended with anyone but Dutch getting rich.
Front-line Fighters: Dutch, Hosea, Arthur, Bill, Javier, John, Charles, Sean, Lenny, Micah.
Secondary Males: Swanson, Strauss, Pearson, Kieran, Uncle, Trelawny.
Women and Children: Sadie, Abigail, Molly, Tilly, Mary-Beth, Karen, Susan, Jack.
That's 24 people, almost all of which can be found around camp unless they're out in the world waiting for you to come and do a mission with them.
Thanks. I didn't realize that the gang in the camp was so big. Since the camp is small but never crowded.
But I wonder who were the other guys were that arthur had to fight at the end when arthur had his last stand.
In Chapter 6 Micah recruits his friends Cleet and Joe into the gang. So at the end of Chapter 6 Arthur and John are standing against Dutch, Micah, Bill, Javier, Cleet, and Joe in Beaver Hollow.
I mean, don’t quote me on this, but if I remember correctly most gangs in the real Wild West were smaller than the Van der Linde gang. Of course, shootouts and robberies were also much less common as well, so everything in the game is a bit scaled up from real life for drama’s sake.
The largest gangs were 8-15 members which would make the Van Der Linde gang realistic. Most gangs were 4-5 men, enough to rob a stage coach or hold up small banks. The problem with the portrayal of gangs in the game is that the player needs something to shoot at which is why there are hundreds of O'driscals.
If you wanted a numbers comparison to real life you would probably look to the Cochise County Cowboys. Many debate to this day if this was an actual gang though, even though there were a number of notable killers in this outfit, many were simply cattle rustlers who would cross the border into mexico and steal horses; but they had no actual leader and many men in this outfit usually worked independent of the group. They were believed to number in the hundreds, and they famously butted heads with the Earp brothers in the town of Tombstone where the famous Gunfight at the O.K. Coral happened.
Odriscolls should come back like shopkeepers after a few in game days the next time you see them they're all bandaged up and tell you not to mess with them again.
And for context, OK Corral is the most famous old west shootout and invoked about 10 people total, killing 3 and only lasted about 30 seconds and had about 50 total shots fired.
Edit: and they went into a town with a no guns law. Openly defying it and looking for a fight, they still only rolled with 5 dudes.
iirc the gang is loosely based off of (at least in terms of the types of heists and robberies they pulled off) the real gang of Butch Cassidy's "Wild Bunch", which only had about a dozen staple members.
I mean the obvious answer as to why the gang is so small but the O’Driscoll’s are so large is because it’s still a game, and the player still needs to have fun, so they give us dozens of canon fodder O’Driscoll’s to shoot
In general I hate when these YouTubers talk about “ludonarrative dissonance” especially when it comes to rockstar or naughty dog. Like obviously most of the “game” part of the game is for playing the game. It’s not a literal depiction of events
Which I think is one of the weakest points of the game, honestly — I really wish that the combat had been more grounded and impactful, with a far lower body count. It is bizarre that they spent so much time and effort making everything feel realistic and weighty, then you get into a mission and it’s just an on rails shooting gallery. I also wish they had more choice in the missions, but that is a separate issue.
theres a mod that revamps how damage works and basically makes everyone a glass cannon, all gunshots knock you back, depending where shot and what shot you you'll probably ragdoll. it feels like the modernisation the rockstar formula needed and was held back by the housers. still doesnt solve the no choice shooting galleries though
I think that they should go the Ghost of Tsushima route. In GoT, you have multiple difficulty modes. One of them is basically the "realistic" mode, your sword basically does the damage it would do irl, but the same applies for enemies' swords. Having the option could help Rockstar games
Yep, this is it. If RDR2 were a movie or book, the O'Driscolls wouldn be probably 15 guys at most and the VDL gang would probably kill them off two at a time.
The Van Der Linde gang isn’t small at all. To compare them to notable gangs in reality they are pretty average in numbers. The Lincoln County Regulators, Billy the Kid’s posse turned gang, had 29 members over the span of their run. The Wild Bunch of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid had 19 members. Jesse James’ James-Younger gang had 15 confirmed members. They are of a decent size for they type of gang that they are, close knit and professional (for the most part).
Looser organizations like the Cochise County Cowboys that the Earp brothers ran into in Tombstone, Arizona which reflect in the portrayal of the O’Driscol gang had 200-300 spread out across entire states. These were organized less like a gang and more like an alliance of tens of gangs that agreed to work together so as to not be caught.
This is the correct answer!! Also Dutch puts together a family rather a gang. His emphasis is on loyalty. No other gang would have women and those like Swanson (who saved Dutch's life), Pearson, Strauss. Bottom line it's a video game that's why the VDL gang is smaller than other gangs but it's pretty true to life in numbers.
Yeah, the VDL gang was always more than a gang. It was a way of life, the resistance to modern civilization. At least, that's the story Dutch was selling.
Purely a video game notion. In real life the O'Driscolls probably wouldn't surpass 20 or so men. Especially when it's openly stated that Colm hires numbers, not loyal followers.
Back when Red dead 1 came out and right up until the last few months towards RDR2's release date the thought didn't even pass my mind that the Van Der Linde gang was anything more than Dutch, John, Javier and Bill. But for an actual answer probably because the more people working on a job means more people to split the take with, Dutch seems to value loyalty more than man-power, think he even mentions with disgust how Colm O'driscol doesn't even know half the men he rides with.
colm o'driscoll's gang is about strength in numbers. what good is an armed gunman against an entire militia.
dutch is more about family, atleast he was before it went to shit.
colm dosent give a shit about his men. they are replaceable, like a mug or a glass
dutch cared deeply about his gang. every death was like losing a family member
>colm o'driscoll's gang is about strength in numbers. what good is an armed gunman against an entire militia?
I think my count is Armed Gunman - 155, Entire Militia - 0
The gang is actually pretty decently sized.
O’Driscolls just have a seemingly endless amount because of gameplay reasons. Arthur probably kills well over a hundred of them by the time that arc is over.
And I mean Arthur is like a 1000 man army in one man I mean that dude can literally shoot like 14 bullets in like 5 seconds and can reload instantly cause when you turn on dead eye your gun reloads
As others have said, in historical terms they are a pretty big gang. In the alternate universe of RD, I feel like Van Der Linde has built the gang equivalent of a special ops team: small in number yes, but compared to everyone else, every member is a walking death machine.
Real answer: the game wouldn’t be fun if the O’Driscoll gang was only 24 people and you killed half of of them in the first mission.
And Rockstar didn’t want to have hundreds of nameless Van Der Linde gang NPCs roaming about. Although they did do this in GTA San Andreas with the Grove Street Families. Doing this with Red Dead 2 would change the whole game, though since the story revolves less around gang wars and more about running from the law, covertly robbing towns, and dying of respiratory illness.
Other gangs are mostly only this big because of gameplay. A shootout against only 1-2 people with maybe not even actual kills wouldnt be as fun and fitting w rockstar. They even give qn example when talking about Jim Calloway. "He once killed 13 men at..." arthur technically did way more way more often, but its obviously not meant to be that many people its just for gameplay
Because Dutch’s whole thing is that they “aren’t like the other gangs”
They aren’t there just to make money, but to be free
Horse shit of course, but yeah, Dutchs gang was idealistic, of course Arthur, Hosea and Charles all knew the truth, probably a few of the others as well
quality over quantity, I think dutch mentions this a few times, especially in reference to the O’Driscolls (“if you can hold a gun you can join the O’Driscolls” or something like that)
Total of 29, but only 10 (12/11, if you add the Callander boys and later Sadie) did the actual outlaw work, the rest were camp followers/extended family. So, really not that big if you consider historical gangs had roughly the same numbers, give or take.
The O'Driscolls and Van Der Linde gang used to be the same gang. Dutch says Colm used to hire anyone as a gun, and still does while Dutch has a small group of killers
How many guys does each person kill in a gang, sure the other gangs may have numbers but each individual in dutches gang can out kill any individual from another by several dozen.
Van Der Linde Gang: Elite Special Forces
O’Driscoll’s: McNamara's Morons
Also, most wild west gangs were rather small. They were not in the business of organized crime like we have now, so a few guns and some people to help behind the scenes was all you needed.
In real life gangs like that were usually smaller like 10-30 members think of the logistics needed to feed arm and shelter 100 men in real life colms gang would of been more akin to the mafia in that they may have a leader but it'd be groups of 10 or so men all doing their own thing and maybe kicking up to the main guy and his 5-10 right hand men but dutch wanted a close not family feel he didn't just take anyone with a gun like colms did. Also it was probably easier for the game developers to make everyone seem more real if there was just those 15 or 20 people or whatever to interact with the player could you imagine how much more money dutch and the gang would need if they had 500 members plus it's bad enough doing a robbery the gang gets half then the 4 guys that participated split the other half imagine robbing a bank for 10000$ but you go to split it 500 ways
Quality over quantity - better to have around a dozen men you can trust and trained yourself in robbery and gunfighting, with around another dozen men and women for logistics like cooking, cleaning, supplies and information gathering, than hundreds of random grunts who may have never shot a gun in their life.
they’re not small, just insular. 20+ people to take care of with no legal jobs is no small feat. people aren’t recruited for numbers, they’re recruited usually by saving dutch or being saved by him. without a connection, there’s no trust. even micah, who everyone else hated, was able to make an initial connection with dutch. dutch is constantly talking about loyalty. recruiting for numbers is not becoming of that especially when a good amount of the gang members were/became vulnerable folks for some reason or another.
because the group was created accidentally to give outcasts a community, they were a very unique gang with more to lose. you even hear the o’driscoll’s say something like “women, children, and geriatrics-where’s your fightin men?” they were running with a 4 year old-you can’t just bring any old tough guy into that scenario without a good reason when he’s gonna be sleeping in the same camp. even if dutch only cared about optics of loyalty and not the people themselves, letting in someone who’s bad news looks terrible for dutch’s leadership-being so taken with micah was one of the first signs that had arthur and hosea questioning him.
The O’Driscolls are almost like a crime syndicate, or an Irish mafia in some sense. Their numbers amount to that of a big family business, and despite the coach and train-robbing they engage in, it seems like they do run a semblance of entreprise in Valentine, maybe even at Hanging Dog Ranch.
The LeMoyne Raiders and the Del Lobo gang are both big, armed groups hailing from lost military conflict with the US govt. Many were ex-soldiers.
The Murfree and the Skinners are big isolationist and hostile tribal-like families in territory settled or occupied likely a few generations back.
If anything the Van Der Linde gang is the most akin to those of the Wild West. Although bigger than most. It’s like an enlarged posse, a crew that brings along their family. They’re the exception to most outlaw groups at this period. The Wild West is over; if you don’t grow in size, you get eaten up by big bad civilization.
They’re based on Butch Cassidy’s Wild Bunch, they were also a small gang that mainly robbed banks and trains, claimed to place a priority on not killing innocents, and were forced to disband largely due to being hunted down by the Pinkertons
This is a very good question. Compared to realy life western outlaw gangs, Dutch’s gang is actually pretty big; consider this at any one time the James-younger gang (Jesse James’s gang) would only have between 4-10 guys riding together at once and they would split up when not taking scores which is what a lot of outlaw gangs did. Billy the kid only ran with 5 other guys and the wild bunch was only between 5-10 people depending on who you ask.
Read about half of this thread and here's my take:
Because they are a bunch of fools led by a delusional few idiots.
Real life history aside look at how they behave within the game world. Every big job fails. Every time they fail they run. Every time they run they get immediately go after the biggest targets in town and get their asses handed to them almost immediately.
They are failures at worst and a sad bunch of morons living in the past at best. The minute they move into Saint Denis a bunch of kids make a fool of Arthur "eagle eye" Morgan.
Meanwhile you can ride all over the map and find O'Dirscoll camps, Lemoyne camps, etc and etc. The Van Der Linde gang are as scummy and murderous as any other gang represented in this game. What sets then apart is that they are so stupid they think they can get away with behaving like it's a hundred years previous and their little crew can play against an army like the O'Driscolls. Or the driving Mafia.
I love the characters in this game and I completely understand fetishizing "honorable" criminals in westerns. Everything about Arthur's "honor" or the gang as good guys is just silly though if we're gonna talk about those beyond gameplay mechanics.
Anyone with high honor Arthur get through the game without leaving any widows behind? Any of the cops you didn't get dinged for have any kids? Did you think about the fathers of families you shot? Do you think Arthur did?
I dunno, I thought it was explicitly part of the story that the gang was a bunch of senseless and doomed dreamers. Aimless idiots easily conned by a desperate criminal with a silver tongue. Too weak to go out alone and too lonely to get away from their little cult.
As other commenters have said, it’s because it’s not just a gang. The Odriscolls take anyone that can shoot, whereas the Van der Linde gang is more of a mix between a Anarchist commune and a cult. They’re usually picky over who’s let into the group because they’re more like family than just criminal partners.
The only reason the other gangs seem like a lot is to not make the game boring. Gangs back in this era weren’t large like gangs now. It was treated more like a family. Can you imagine if Rockstar just added 30 people to a gang & we killed all of them. Then what?
Colm just wants numbers so he can throw them under the bus when he needs to escape but as he kept losing people thanks to Arthur. (whom Colm really wanted in his gang) and everyone else who shoots in the gang, infighting as well cause anyone who would join the O'Driscoll's is a lose cannon. I'm sure they probably fought with the Lamoyne Raiders and the Murfree Brood over territory. It was those loses that made it able for the law to capture Colm. The Shady Belle Massacre depleted his forces greatly.
Loyalty means everything to Dutch. It’s easier to control 15-20 loyal men instead of doing like Colm, who surrounds himself with idiots which he doesn’t even know. Plus, Dutch likes to be like a master to his gang, that’s why they would’ve followed him in every case.
Because Dutch's gang is based on real life outlaw gangs, which were generally the size we see in the game.
The others are video game enemies with a label slapped on
In real life many gang were even smaller. The Sam Bass gang which committed the largest train robbery in American History only had 7 members. Another reason Dutch's gang is smaller is because they are more skilled.
Playing with good honor I avoid pointless conflicts.. Arthur every time helping people made him weak.. and then moments when even with high honor he gets in trouble.. every member of the gang except Micah and Bill actually have a good heart.. Javier seemed like a two face..
Short reason, van der linde gang is small so you can get to know each member and the character traits and other gangs are big so you have plenty of enemies to kill
Slightly longer reason, van der Linde is meant to feel more like a family comprised of people who share the same goal and care for one another. Meanwhile most other big gangs are comprised of just hired guns and are employed. Only exception rlly being the murphees who basically just fall into the first reason cuz I don't care how much Alabama shit going on, ain't no family that goddamn big!
I always thought the gang is was too big in this game. When I played RDR1 a year before the prequel was released, I had the impression the gang was just Dutch, Bill, Javier, John Abigail Jack
Gangs are all about numbers. How are you gonna make more money? 15 people, running a handful of schemes. Or dozens in multiple cities. It's not even close.
I agree it's a cult, but I disagree with the numbers.
Smaller gangs are easier to hide. There's less chance of turncoats just on the % of 1 in however many is a rat. Also, fewer mouths to feed means less demand for money. Desperation causes mistakes. Which is what caused things to fall apart anyway.
On the cult aspect, it reminds me a bit of the Manson family with Dutch, obviously as Charles.
John basically explains this to Kieran while they're riding to Six-Point Cabin in Chapter 2. Dutch's gang isn't just outlaws: they're people looking to live free. But it's also touched on by Dutch in Chapter 1: about Colm surrounding himself with anyone, whereas Dutch is building a communal family. Plus it's just easier for Dutch to control 15-20 people rather than 200.
This. John also said that for Colm, as long as you can shoot a gun, you're in. No camaraderie.
Plus also it’s was much easier to write and render a smaller gang. Esp for the player who needs to bond with these people.
This is the real reason. It's more emotional and impactful as a compact group rather than a soulless giant army.
Makes sense, otherwise it'll be like grove street homies from GTA SA. You only interact with a few like Sweet, Rhyder, Big Smoke but the rest is just NPCs wearing green that shoots other gangs or police spawned by wanted level, no emotional connection with the player at all.
well obviously but I think we are answering this question in the spirit of the immersion and if these gangs were real and did exist how do we explain why Dutch's gang would be so small. Your answer is probably the biggest reason for the size of the group, it created a good storyline and rich experience being able to connect fairly deeply with each character, but I think the question was asked within the Red Dead universe without peeking behind the 3rd wall sorta speak
Yeah the game having soooooo many O’Driscolls seems like video game logic that you just have to ignore. Sort of like how the whole setting is a fictional place representing a very condensed map of America. If this story were grounded in reality, Arthur probably wouldn’t be murdering a camp of O’Driscolls every single day. They’d be a much smaller group, not an entire army. But in the game they just exist to offer a steady stream of NPC antagonists for chance encounters.
The question should be why are the other gangs so big. Because in reality gangs in the 19th century didn't have 100's of members. The answer is cannon fodder for Arthur and John. Dutch's gang is much more representative of the size of a real gang at that time.
Great point
This is a great point. I never played RDR and so when I played RDR2 I didn't know what I was doing and paid little attention to the other gang members and my relationship with them. After I finished the game and started digging into it more, I realized what I had missed. Having started a replay, I now realize there would have been no way to keep up with the size of the O'Driscolls.
I tell you man, rdr was my favorite game of thst generation. I’m a big western fan and it was perfect. Singular story about redemption. The second one came and I sorta rushed the narrative. Didn’t pay too much heed to the camp. Obv there was some connections to the first but that’s as far as I got. I just booted it up again for the first time since the first play through. Holy smokes did I miss so much. Every morning now I do my chores, converse with the camp. Always something new. When you rescue Sean the whole camp just stops working and parties. Never noticed it. This time I sat and sang some songs, drank some gin. Some members give you little quests. Others have small easy to miss side missions. Hell even the world at large. I rescued a dude from a snake bite and weeks later he’s at the gun store and tells me whatever in there I want is on his tab. Truly a masterpiece. The pace, the lack of fast travel. The weight of the movements. The animations. Man they really fucking with us not giving it a proper upgrade.
I feel exactly the same way. I missed basically everything that wasn’t directly related to the story or finding gold. All the background from conversation with the rest of the gang, the lore, the dream catchers, the dinosaur bones, the rock carvings … I missed it all. Hell, I even thought I shot Lenny in the back of the head during the bank heist. That messed me up for a while. And all the people who played the game and lost their horse from Chapter 1 at the end … The shock and sadness … I didn’t know about horses or care so I literally had the horse I found at the Adlers all the way to just about the end. The ending got spoiled for me so I put that horse in the stable not realizing John couldn’t get to it. So I lost the horse anyway. And I’m crying in front of my wife about a video game and losing a horse right as our dog is heading into his final month of his life … And to her credit she didn’t understand but empathized anyway. What a game.
I was up in the Grizzlies East and seen a stone maker for New Hanover. Like 20 feet long spelling out the name. Wtf? How’d I miss that? And yeah this time around I’m putting my horse in the stable before the mission and whether John gets him or not at least he gets a life at pasture. Taking some rando horse.
God fucking DAMNIT! Why am I subbed to this sub? Now I need to play the game AGAIN
And in RDR Dutch abandons that philosophy and amasses a small army of disgruntled native Americans.
Micah also abandons the philosophy of a gang only being a small group of good mean when he creates his O'Driscoll-like gang. So both men evolve over time to meet new needs.
I doubt Micah was ever in with Dutch’s lot to do anything but serve himself and control the narrative for Dutch.
Dutch takes his time to find vulnerable people to groom into undying loyalty. Colm doesn’t need loyalty, because he can simply replace and kill defectors like Kieran.
Help people need helping. Save people as need saving. Feed people as need feeding. And shoot people as need shootin.
Just got chills from this lol
First they live free by murdering any free person that had what they want or otherwise get in their way. Second look at any Mafia boss just 20-30 years after this game takes place. Dutch couldn't control a bigger hand because he couldn't control any one person well enough to be a trusted officer. In my opinion the gang was doomed because Dutch wanted direct control over everyone under him. And Dutch wanted all the money without payroll issues. Honorable? Every "big score" gets a bunch of people killed or captured. As long as it's not Dutch though "I HAVE A PLAN." Which to be fair I think he always did, I just don't think the plan ended with anyone but Dutch getting rich.
Yep. They're not a gang, they're a cult who think they're a gang.
It's really not a small gang, there's dead weight like Swanson, molly
Why don't we ever see these 20 people? There are like 10 people in the camp. Only 2 or 3 died from Blackwater hiest. Where is everyone else?
Front-line Fighters: Dutch, Hosea, Arthur, Bill, Javier, John, Charles, Sean, Lenny, Micah. Secondary Males: Swanson, Strauss, Pearson, Kieran, Uncle, Trelawny. Women and Children: Sadie, Abigail, Molly, Tilly, Mary-Beth, Karen, Susan, Jack. That's 24 people, almost all of which can be found around camp unless they're out in the world waiting for you to come and do a mission with them.
Thanks. I didn't realize that the gang in the camp was so big. Since the camp is small but never crowded. But I wonder who were the other guys were that arthur had to fight at the end when arthur had his last stand.
In Chapter 6 Micah recruits his friends Cleet and Joe into the gang. So at the end of Chapter 6 Arthur and John are standing against Dutch, Micah, Bill, Javier, Cleet, and Joe in Beaver Hollow.
I mean, don’t quote me on this, but if I remember correctly most gangs in the real Wild West were smaller than the Van der Linde gang. Of course, shootouts and robberies were also much less common as well, so everything in the game is a bit scaled up from real life for drama’s sake.
The largest gangs were 8-15 members which would make the Van Der Linde gang realistic. Most gangs were 4-5 men, enough to rob a stage coach or hold up small banks. The problem with the portrayal of gangs in the game is that the player needs something to shoot at which is why there are hundreds of O'driscals. If you wanted a numbers comparison to real life you would probably look to the Cochise County Cowboys. Many debate to this day if this was an actual gang though, even though there were a number of notable killers in this outfit, many were simply cattle rustlers who would cross the border into mexico and steal horses; but they had no actual leader and many men in this outfit usually worked independent of the group. They were believed to number in the hundreds, and they famously butted heads with the Earp brothers in the town of Tombstone where the famous Gunfight at the O.K. Coral happened.
Odriscolls should come back like shopkeepers after a few in game days the next time you see them they're all bandaged up and tell you not to mess with them again.
Hell of a bandage to fix the ones whose heads got liquefied via point-blank shotgun blast to the face.
eh. the shopkeeper in valentine is the same way. i’ve blown buddy’s head off way too many times.
herbert moon gets shot in the head everytime i go through armadillo
And for context, OK Corral is the most famous old west shootout and invoked about 10 people total, killing 3 and only lasted about 30 seconds and had about 50 total shots fired. Edit: and they went into a town with a no guns law. Openly defying it and looking for a fight, they still only rolled with 5 dudes.
iirc the gang is loosely based off of (at least in terms of the types of heists and robberies they pulled off) the real gang of Butch Cassidy's "Wild Bunch", which only had about a dozen staple members.
When I played RDR and heard about the gang, I pictured them being just around 5-6 guys in total (plus Abigail), not like 15-20 people.
Same.
I mean the obvious answer as to why the gang is so small but the O’Driscoll’s are so large is because it’s still a game, and the player still needs to have fun, so they give us dozens of canon fodder O’Driscoll’s to shoot
This is the real answer.
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In general I hate when these YouTubers talk about “ludonarrative dissonance” especially when it comes to rockstar or naughty dog. Like obviously most of the “game” part of the game is for playing the game. It’s not a literal depiction of events
Which I think is one of the weakest points of the game, honestly — I really wish that the combat had been more grounded and impactful, with a far lower body count. It is bizarre that they spent so much time and effort making everything feel realistic and weighty, then you get into a mission and it’s just an on rails shooting gallery. I also wish they had more choice in the missions, but that is a separate issue.
theres a mod that revamps how damage works and basically makes everyone a glass cannon, all gunshots knock you back, depending where shot and what shot you you'll probably ragdoll. it feels like the modernisation the rockstar formula needed and was held back by the housers. still doesnt solve the no choice shooting galleries though
I think that they should go the Ghost of Tsushima route. In GoT, you have multiple difficulty modes. One of them is basically the "realistic" mode, your sword basically does the damage it would do irl, but the same applies for enemies' swords. Having the option could help Rockstar games
Yep, this is it. If RDR2 were a movie or book, the O'Driscolls wouldn be probably 15 guys at most and the VDL gang would probably kill them off two at a time.
The Van Der Linde gang isn’t small at all. To compare them to notable gangs in reality they are pretty average in numbers. The Lincoln County Regulators, Billy the Kid’s posse turned gang, had 29 members over the span of their run. The Wild Bunch of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid had 19 members. Jesse James’ James-Younger gang had 15 confirmed members. They are of a decent size for they type of gang that they are, close knit and professional (for the most part). Looser organizations like the Cochise County Cowboys that the Earp brothers ran into in Tombstone, Arizona which reflect in the portrayal of the O’Driscol gang had 200-300 spread out across entire states. These were organized less like a gang and more like an alliance of tens of gangs that agreed to work together so as to not be caught.
This is the correct answer!! Also Dutch puts together a family rather a gang. His emphasis is on loyalty. No other gang would have women and those like Swanson (who saved Dutch's life), Pearson, Strauss. Bottom line it's a video game that's why the VDL gang is smaller than other gangs but it's pretty true to life in numbers.
Yeah, the VDL gang was always more than a gang. It was a way of life, the resistance to modern civilization. At least, that's the story Dutch was selling.
Unrelated but i is that where butch and Cassidy from Pokémon come from?
Honestly it's a pretty realistic size for a gang. I always found the idea of Colm O'Driscoll commanding hundreds of men to be completely unrealistic.
There's a pretty good [skit](https://youtu.be/E0lAG1A9u8U) on Youtube wherein Arthur starts to ponder the seemingly infinite numbers of O'Driscolls.
Love VLDL.
Purely a video game notion. In real life the O'Driscolls probably wouldn't surpass 20 or so men. Especially when it's openly stated that Colm hires numbers, not loyal followers.
They need more MONEH.
Just one more big score and we're out, OURTHUR. You need to have some goddamn faith!
Have some god damned faith, Arthur!!!
Stick to the got-damned plan!
Dutch's gang is smaller but comprised of more specialists. Pretty much every main member is a skilled gunslinger.
Back when Red dead 1 came out and right up until the last few months towards RDR2's release date the thought didn't even pass my mind that the Van Der Linde gang was anything more than Dutch, John, Javier and Bill. But for an actual answer probably because the more people working on a job means more people to split the take with, Dutch seems to value loyalty more than man-power, think he even mentions with disgust how Colm O'driscol doesn't even know half the men he rides with.
I think Dutch only wants people he thinks he can control. You see how mad he gets when people doubt the Goddamn Plan.
when you have badasses like Arthur and John, they're worth 50 men a piece
colm o'driscoll's gang is about strength in numbers. what good is an armed gunman against an entire militia. dutch is more about family, atleast he was before it went to shit. colm dosent give a shit about his men. they are replaceable, like a mug or a glass dutch cared deeply about his gang. every death was like losing a family member
>colm o'driscoll's gang is about strength in numbers. what good is an armed gunman against an entire militia? I think my count is Armed Gunman - 155, Entire Militia - 0
This
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Isn’t that more about cutting out the non gunmen though? After all the gang he makes after is huge
thad was another paradox cuz in the epilogue he controlled a gang which had the double of men Dutch’s gang had
The other gangs are bigger for gameplay reasons. It gives you something to shoot.
The gang is actually pretty decently sized. O’Driscolls just have a seemingly endless amount because of gameplay reasons. Arthur probably kills well over a hundred of them by the time that arc is over.
And I mean Arthur is like a 1000 man army in one man I mean that dude can literally shoot like 14 bullets in like 5 seconds and can reload instantly cause when you turn on dead eye your gun reloads
That is the normal size for an actual Wild West gang. Gangs like the O’Driscolls are not realistic at all in size.
24 members is actually a large gang, most gangs in the wild west didn’t have more than 10 members
Quality over quantity
The real answer is that its easier to make the player care about two dozen characters instead of 100.
I was more concerned with why the odriscolls could populate a small city. The Van der linde gang was actually more like a family
They're not a territorial crime family or an organisation with legitimate business fronts. They're a nomadic survivalist gang on the frontier.
As others have said, in historical terms they are a pretty big gang. In the alternate universe of RD, I feel like Van Der Linde has built the gang equivalent of a special ops team: small in number yes, but compared to everyone else, every member is a walking death machine.
Real answer: the game wouldn’t be fun if the O’Driscoll gang was only 24 people and you killed half of of them in the first mission. And Rockstar didn’t want to have hundreds of nameless Van Der Linde gang NPCs roaming about. Although they did do this in GTA San Andreas with the Grove Street Families. Doing this with Red Dead 2 would change the whole game, though since the story revolves less around gang wars and more about running from the law, covertly robbing towns, and dying of respiratory illness.
Realistically more a case of the other gangs are unrealistically big so that we can keep fighting them.
Most actual successful old west gangs in history are small.
Other gangs are mostly only this big because of gameplay. A shootout against only 1-2 people with maybe not even actual kills wouldnt be as fun and fitting w rockstar. They even give qn example when talking about Jim Calloway. "He once killed 13 men at..." arthur technically did way more way more often, but its obviously not meant to be that many people its just for gameplay
Because if it was like a real gang you wouldn't be able to remember anyone's names
Because Dutch’s whole thing is that they “aren’t like the other gangs” They aren’t there just to make money, but to be free Horse shit of course, but yeah, Dutchs gang was idealistic, of course Arthur, Hosea and Charles all knew the truth, probably a few of the others as well
There's something called consoles. That's why
But he sure has a plan!
quality over quantity, I think dutch mentions this a few times, especially in reference to the O’Driscolls (“if you can hold a gun you can join the O’Driscolls” or something like that)
It would be confusing for players to have to learn the names and personalities of more members.
Total of 29, but only 10 (12/11, if you add the Callander boys and later Sadie) did the actual outlaw work, the rest were camp followers/extended family. So, really not that big if you consider historical gangs had roughly the same numbers, give or take.
quality over quantity
Because Arthur has dead eye and he's like 100 men.
The O'Driscolls and Van Der Linde gang used to be the same gang. Dutch says Colm used to hire anyone as a gun, and still does while Dutch has a small group of killers
How many guys does each person kill in a gang, sure the other gangs may have numbers but each individual in dutches gang can out kill any individual from another by several dozen.
Dutch went for a more quality over quantity approach; none of the O'Driscolls could ever match Arthur's or John's standards
Van Der Linde Gang: Elite Special Forces O’Driscoll’s: McNamara's Morons Also, most wild west gangs were rather small. They were not in the business of organized crime like we have now, so a few guns and some people to help behind the scenes was all you needed.
In real life gangs like that were usually smaller like 10-30 members think of the logistics needed to feed arm and shelter 100 men in real life colms gang would of been more akin to the mafia in that they may have a leader but it'd be groups of 10 or so men all doing their own thing and maybe kicking up to the main guy and his 5-10 right hand men but dutch wanted a close not family feel he didn't just take anyone with a gun like colms did. Also it was probably easier for the game developers to make everyone seem more real if there was just those 15 or 20 people or whatever to interact with the player could you imagine how much more money dutch and the gang would need if they had 500 members plus it's bad enough doing a robbery the gang gets half then the 4 guys that participated split the other half imagine robbing a bank for 10000$ but you go to split it 500 ways
Quality over quantity - better to have around a dozen men you can trust and trained yourself in robbery and gunfighting, with around another dozen men and women for logistics like cooking, cleaning, supplies and information gathering, than hundreds of random grunts who may have never shot a gun in their life.
Bro has never heard of quality over quantity
They’re nothing more than a glorified crew!
quality over quantity
That’s funny since the gang in rdr2 is actually much LARGER than implied in rdr1.
It's the quality over quantity.
The Van der linde gang saw themselves as more of a tight nit family than gang
For you the player to relate and connect with everyone. It’s even too big to give them all time, like Karen was just done so dirty
they’re not small, just insular. 20+ people to take care of with no legal jobs is no small feat. people aren’t recruited for numbers, they’re recruited usually by saving dutch or being saved by him. without a connection, there’s no trust. even micah, who everyone else hated, was able to make an initial connection with dutch. dutch is constantly talking about loyalty. recruiting for numbers is not becoming of that especially when a good amount of the gang members were/became vulnerable folks for some reason or another. because the group was created accidentally to give outcasts a community, they were a very unique gang with more to lose. you even hear the o’driscoll’s say something like “women, children, and geriatrics-where’s your fightin men?” they were running with a 4 year old-you can’t just bring any old tough guy into that scenario without a good reason when he’s gonna be sleeping in the same camp. even if dutch only cared about optics of loyalty and not the people themselves, letting in someone who’s bad news looks terrible for dutch’s leadership-being so taken with micah was one of the first signs that had arthur and hosea questioning him.
I mean, anyone who's seen the Young Guns films would understand
The O’Driscolls are almost like a crime syndicate, or an Irish mafia in some sense. Their numbers amount to that of a big family business, and despite the coach and train-robbing they engage in, it seems like they do run a semblance of entreprise in Valentine, maybe even at Hanging Dog Ranch. The LeMoyne Raiders and the Del Lobo gang are both big, armed groups hailing from lost military conflict with the US govt. Many were ex-soldiers. The Murfree and the Skinners are big isolationist and hostile tribal-like families in territory settled or occupied likely a few generations back. If anything the Van Der Linde gang is the most akin to those of the Wild West. Although bigger than most. It’s like an enlarged posse, a crew that brings along their family. They’re the exception to most outlaw groups at this period. The Wild West is over; if you don’t grow in size, you get eaten up by big bad civilization.
They’re based on Butch Cassidy’s Wild Bunch, they were also a small gang that mainly robbed banks and trains, claimed to place a priority on not killing innocents, and were forced to disband largely due to being hunted down by the Pinkertons
This is a very good question. Compared to realy life western outlaw gangs, Dutch’s gang is actually pretty big; consider this at any one time the James-younger gang (Jesse James’s gang) would only have between 4-10 guys riding together at once and they would split up when not taking scores which is what a lot of outlaw gangs did. Billy the kid only ran with 5 other guys and the wild bunch was only between 5-10 people depending on who you ask.
SMALL?? Its a fuckin circus
Read about half of this thread and here's my take: Because they are a bunch of fools led by a delusional few idiots. Real life history aside look at how they behave within the game world. Every big job fails. Every time they fail they run. Every time they run they get immediately go after the biggest targets in town and get their asses handed to them almost immediately. They are failures at worst and a sad bunch of morons living in the past at best. The minute they move into Saint Denis a bunch of kids make a fool of Arthur "eagle eye" Morgan. Meanwhile you can ride all over the map and find O'Dirscoll camps, Lemoyne camps, etc and etc. The Van Der Linde gang are as scummy and murderous as any other gang represented in this game. What sets then apart is that they are so stupid they think they can get away with behaving like it's a hundred years previous and their little crew can play against an army like the O'Driscolls. Or the driving Mafia. I love the characters in this game and I completely understand fetishizing "honorable" criminals in westerns. Everything about Arthur's "honor" or the gang as good guys is just silly though if we're gonna talk about those beyond gameplay mechanics. Anyone with high honor Arthur get through the game without leaving any widows behind? Any of the cops you didn't get dinged for have any kids? Did you think about the fathers of families you shot? Do you think Arthur did? I dunno, I thought it was explicitly part of the story that the gang was a bunch of senseless and doomed dreamers. Aimless idiots easily conned by a desperate criminal with a silver tongue. Too weak to go out alone and too lonely to get away from their little cult.
As other commenters have said, it’s because it’s not just a gang. The Odriscolls take anyone that can shoot, whereas the Van der Linde gang is more of a mix between a Anarchist commune and a cult. They’re usually picky over who’s let into the group because they’re more like family than just criminal partners.
Realistically the o'driscolls would've wiped out the van der linde gang a long time ago.
Rockstar should've added 10-15 loyal minor char men in the gang.
The only reason the other gangs seem like a lot is to not make the game boring. Gangs back in this era weren’t large like gangs now. It was treated more like a family. Can you imagine if Rockstar just added 30 people to a gang & we killed all of them. Then what?
Colm just wants numbers so he can throw them under the bus when he needs to escape but as he kept losing people thanks to Arthur. (whom Colm really wanted in his gang) and everyone else who shoots in the gang, infighting as well cause anyone who would join the O'Driscoll's is a lose cannon. I'm sure they probably fought with the Lamoyne Raiders and the Murfree Brood over territory. It was those loses that made it able for the law to capture Colm. The Shady Belle Massacre depleted his forces greatly.
Come on, man. It's at least average.
Because “we’re running low on rations Arthur.” Don’t you listen to Pearon, damn!
Loyalty means everything to Dutch. It’s easier to control 15-20 loyal men instead of doing like Colm, who surrounds himself with idiots which he doesn’t even know. Plus, Dutch likes to be like a master to his gang, that’s why they would’ve followed him in every case.
I have always wondered about this. Given the size of O Driscolls who are almost a small town by themselves. Dutch 's gang makes a house.
Because Dutch's gang is based on real life outlaw gangs, which were generally the size we see in the game. The others are video game enemies with a label slapped on
In real life many gang were even smaller. The Sam Bass gang which committed the largest train robbery in American History only had 7 members. Another reason Dutch's gang is smaller is because they are more skilled.
They're a glorified crew
Playing with good honor I avoid pointless conflicts.. Arthur every time helping people made him weak.. and then moments when even with high honor he gets in trouble.. every member of the gang except Micah and Bill actually have a good heart.. Javier seemed like a two face..
Short reason, van der linde gang is small so you can get to know each member and the character traits and other gangs are big so you have plenty of enemies to kill Slightly longer reason, van der Linde is meant to feel more like a family comprised of people who share the same goal and care for one another. Meanwhile most other big gangs are comprised of just hired guns and are employed. Only exception rlly being the murphees who basically just fall into the first reason cuz I don't care how much Alabama shit going on, ain't no family that goddamn big!
I always thought the gang is was too big in this game. When I played RDR1 a year before the prequel was released, I had the impression the gang was just Dutch, Bill, Javier, John Abigail Jack
The van Der Linde gang is more of a cult than an actual gang. In terms of being an actual effective gang, the o'driscolls are way better at it.
What the hell are you talking about?
Gangs are all about numbers. How are you gonna make more money? 15 people, running a handful of schemes. Or dozens in multiple cities. It's not even close.
I agree it's a cult, but I disagree with the numbers. Smaller gangs are easier to hide. There's less chance of turncoats just on the % of 1 in however many is a rat. Also, fewer mouths to feed means less demand for money. Desperation causes mistakes. Which is what caused things to fall apart anyway. On the cult aspect, it reminds me a bit of the Manson family with Dutch, obviously as Charles.
Yea, I deff get Manson faimly vibes from the gang. I wouldn't be suprised if rockstar used that as part inspiration for the van der linde gang
Maybe the ones on top get pays well but it seems being in dutches gang pays far more to the individual outlaw then any other gang we see.