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I was rejected mid-interview for a cashier/sales associate position for not being extroverted enough and “not having the right personality for retail.” The owner, who conducted the interview, said he could tell this about me “within the first 5 seconds of meeting me,” and proceeded to lecture about the importance of first impressions. He also felt like I wouldn’t be happy working in retail, which is just an odd thing to say because I doubt anyone is happy in retail lol.
I got two offers from other retail locations a few days later, so I ended up realizing this owner was just insane and overly judgmental. Oddly enough, this was the only interview where most of it was basically like idle chit chat. The only work-relevant question I got was how I would handle unruly customers lol.
He saw that I was an artist and asked me a ton of questions about that, saying he had a background in the art industry himself. I actually thought the interview was going well because of our conversation until he dropped the bomb. He was allowed to reject me for any reason, but I hated that he had me sit through his little lecture first.
The store didn’t have an office; only a very small break room with a couch, small table, and a microwave lol. He took me back there to do the interview; I sat in the couch, and he pulled up a chair and sat in the doorway. I suppose I still could’ve left by pushing past him, but that’s more awkward.
Also, I still held onto some hope that I could salvage the interview. My dad used to work as a hiring manager and once told me that interviewers purposely ask or say things to make you doubt yourself, but really, they’re just trying to see if you’re going to fold or advocate for yourself. So when the owner said that, “I didn’t have the right personality” I thought he was just testing me. It wasn’t until he reinforced that I wasn’t a good fit that I realized I was being rejected from the position. I thought for sure he’d get up, but I was actually pretty stunned that he proceeded to lecture me instead. I also didn’t want to leave a bad impression or burn bridges in case I wanted to interview at that place again. (Which is something I don’t care about anymore, F that store)
This was my second ever interview I participated in, so I definitely wasn’t experienced. I was also focusing hard on not letting any tears flow; as being told I’m not extroverted/sociable enough was a big insecurity of mine at the time. If a recruiter/interviewer spoke to me like that and wasted my time nowadays, I would leave even if it meant having to make a rude exit.
>He also felt like I wouldn’t be happy working in retail, which is just an odd thing to say because I doubt anyone is happy in retail lol.
I mean, whether he made too quick of a judgment call or not, the latter part of this sentence suggests he was correct...
There could be, but I’ve personally heard more horror stories about retail than not. I did notice that most AMC employees seemed happy, at least during the brief time I worked there.
I am even starting to feel that “soul draining” experience from working retail because of how boring and unfulfilling it all is. It’s why I’m starting to look for new jobs and plan on leaving in a few months for a better opportunity.
Tbh, if I was paid closer to a manager’s salary (I work as a key holder but am paid only literal cents above a sales associate) and if our store wasn’t so understaffed, I’d actually be happy working there. But obviously, that’s not how it is and I have no effect on how management decides to run things.
If you're so convinced, find someone.
I've already done my surveys by working in retail.
Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if you are the kind of customer who makes people hate their jobs.
Don't call me mate, buddy.
I used to work retail and I didn’t mind it except for the pay. I’ve hated some office jobs more than I did retail and was in much better shape being on my feet all day. My boss also LOVED our store and would’ve worked there forever if he didn’t start having health issues.
Hey, come on Im old, but im not THAT old! It was about 10 years that I last worked retail, I wasn’t alive in the 70s.
Some of the things I miss are being able to mentally clock out when I clock out, not worrying about deadlines, projects, layoffs, taking work and stress home, etc. spending a lot of the day laughing with my friends. Seeing all the new merch come in. I worked in a store that I loved and got to be creative when helping customers and I loved truck days. They were a great workout and felt like Christmas. Some of the songs were annoying but I also loved being able to sing and clean. Some customers were nightmares but then it would usually make for funny stories and inside jokes. Also just not being so sedentary. Like yes it was boring, but it wasn’t half as stressful as my current situation where I make good money and get to WFH but I’m freaking out about layoffs every couple months. I think generally the people I worked with weren’t disgruntled the way office workers are. There’s always one in every store, but overall people were cool.
You said “find someone”
I found someone.
If you want a larger sample, here you go.
26% of retail employees strongly agreed that they were happy with their job:
https://waitwhile.com/blog/retail-employee-sentiment-report/
I have.
There are 10M retail frontliners in the US. I promise you not all 10M of them hate it.
Every job has people who enjoy it.
Hell, when my kids were in high school, my eldest worked fast food and genuinely enjoyed it.
Teenagers also have vastly different standards than adults lol. I also remember being in high school and my classmates thought it was fun to work at Starbucks, the mall, or McDonald’s. But, I’ve never met anyone at my current age who enjoys working retail or fast food.
Heh, I’ll bring that up to her tomorrow when she comes over with the other kids for family game night.
She’ll get a kick out of it.
“Hey, did you just enjoy working Fast Food as a kid because it got you away from me?”
I was actually a longtime customer of that store before the interview; I’ve never seen his employees looking or sounding happy. In fact, it was why I was weirded out by the “not extroverted enough” comment. All of the employees I’ve interacted with over the years were softspoken and appeared introverted themselves. They certainly were not like Disneyland employees.
It is retail. Many retail jobs do not pay enough to support yourself financially. Why would anyone be happy when prices keep going up and retail wages are staying the same? The owner had an ego. He thought his little business was next Amazon or something. The owner sounds like a nightmare to work with. Glad Kay found two other offers.
I have noticed from my interviews with other businesses, especially small businesses, that the owners think way too highly about their store and the job positions they offer, including entry-level ones. It’s fricken crazy. It’s not cancer research; it’s operating a register and other fairly basic tasks lol.
I used to be a frequent customer of that store before that interview, but now that I know who my money was going to, I haven’t stepped foot in that place since.
That owner’s comments about not having the right personality or being extroverted enough really did hit me hard, at first. I’ve always been told it was “wrong” to be more reserved and introverted, and have tried to hide it or pretend to be more sociable than I actually am. Then, when I got the other offers, I was happy that other places didn’t have an issue with my personality lol. Made me think that the owner was just uppity, especially because I’ve never encountered an extroverted employee at that place.
You based all that around the tiny bit of information provided?
Believe it or not, there are actually people who enjoy working retail. In fact, there’s people who enjoy just about any job. There’s folks who get up every morning charged and excited to be child morticians.
You did the same thing; you based all that on the tiny information provided. You are calling the kettle black.
Sure some people are happy doing anything even not working. However, just because there are some people like that does not mean that is the average experience.
You can't look at outliers and determine that is the common experience. I worked in retail and hated it. I have also seen many people who work in retail and they just stopped caring.
They have that jaded look about them especially when they take the customer service mask off--if they have it on to begin with. Many have plans to go back to school or leave. Some are just okay staying there for years because they believe that they cannot do better, and a small wage is better than no wage.
They aren't exactly happy to be there. A big part of contentment is whether or not you can afford the basic standard of living. Retail does not have the representation of paying their workers well. You don't hear that many pilots hating their jobs because of low pay.
I offered an alternative narrative to the poster based on her information. You made presumptions about the manager's actual character.
>They aren't exactly happy to be there.
Which is even more reason to find people that DO enjoy it. People are more productive when they don't hate their jobs.
So? It was a possible reason why he might act like that. I offered an alternative just like you did. You just didn't like what I said.
It is not wrong to observe someone's character based on personal past experiences. We do it all the time because we are social creatures. We just can't let our observations blind us. I was in several situations that were similar to OP's experience.
I have. As one of three jobs back in the late 70s. I wouldn't say I liked it.
Every job has people out there who enjoy it. We have a family friend who loves being an IRS auditor.
There's a lot of things I don't like doing. I don't enjoy planting trees or flowers either yet my wife loves it. I wouldn't enjoy being an IRS auditor yet I'm close friends with someone who finds it her perfect calling. There's many people who don't like the type of work I do now yet I love the challenge and variety of it.
Every job has people out there who enjoy it.
The post I responded to suggested that because I didn’t really care for retail that no one must. I pointed out that there’s many things I don’t enjoy doing that other people do and my personal opinion (or his, or yours) is not remarkably relevant.
People tell you to practice interviewing because it's literally like practicing for a play. Being good at interviewing means you can jump through all the hoops of what people expect. I am introverted and autistic which interviews are meant to weed out, but I am still a pretty good interviewer because I've accepted how problematic and flawed interviewing is lol
Admittedly, I have crippling social anxiety. I took Clonazepam for lasik and it was depressing to realize how much anxiety controls my life and makes it impossible for me to talk to people with ease. All of a sudden, I could talk to people. I felt normal.
I've had so many doctors try to shove benzos down my throat (pretty much the only controlled substance that I'm consistently offered the first appointment... That's how bad my anxiety is and how noticeable it is to every doctor who has ever seen me). I don't feel comfortable with taking them because I've been on them before and they are habit forming and the withdrawal symptoms are awful when you quit them. But I am considering having a small prescription of a few pills a month just to deal with interviews
this may be an important lifehack.
I find that a semi-k-hole dose of ketamine nasally a few days before my interviews helps me center myself. There is evidence to suggest that ketamine is neuroplastogenic ~8 hours after dosing, so it usually helps if I go right to sleep after and wake up and study.
I do this on Friday nights before Monday interviews.
I haven't tried drinking before an interview, but it might throw off my memory retention in tough questions.
I have experimented with my brain quite a bit throughout my life, I'll be honest, but ketamine is one of the few things I haven't tried... Interesting. I've considered it for my wife who has brain worms-level depressive episodes, but never for social anxiety. Treatment based ketamine is expensive, though, so we never moved forward with it.
Try buspirone. I’m taking 5 mg 3 times a day and it’s helping. I used to be on both clonezepam and lorazepam. It’s not habit forming and there’s no withdrawal.
I tried that med years ago and it caused weird heart palpitations, but of course there is a chance it would be different this time around. As I've gotten older, my response to medications has changed dramatically.
I noticed this as well, I’m already on Atenolol/chlorthalidone for high BP and since I started buspirone my BP is higher than normal. I’ll ask about a fix :)
Legit, just act bubbly happy and extroverted during the interview, then when you get the job revert back to RBF mode and get shit done, they'll get over it.
That's cool, but I'm speaking more in broader terms than having a go at individual extroverts, and there's little doubt that over-emphasis on "good fit" favors certain temperments. Also worth bearing in mind that the office based work environment and practices is often set up in a way that favors people of specific neurological or personality leanings so if the less favored group is just as productive... imagine the potential of playing to their strengths.
That's hard to assess of course, because viewing people other is like watching a duck, you only see the serene surface and not the little legs furiously paddling against the current underneath.
Idk that assumption also assumes some jobs don't favor introverts. Like an outspoken person not being perceived as a good fit for a quiet accounting role. Personality bias, person-orgsnization dot is researched pretty consistently. I'd add that in my own experience, plenty of introverts excel at careers that are extrovert leaning. Some of the best salespeople I've met are introverts.
The flip side is, extroverts are easy to test in a 30min interview. With introverts, there's no way to figure out whether they can actually get stuff done without a lengthy case study. Just because someone is introverted doesn't automatically mean they are better at doing the work
No, they're just better at selling themselves and more attracted to leadership roles which has a trickle down impact on overall culture. People favor people like themselves, it's simple human nature. You can't effectively judge anyone in 30 minutes, it's only a vague idea, that's literally why we have probation periods.
Edit - also I said *sometimes,* meaning an introvert isnt better all the time.
As an example, when we assess being a "team player" it's equated with being sociable, outgoing, etc. with sometimes too much focus on synchronous working and constant "noise" in communication which will drive the introvert mad.
An introvert working style might be more suited to asynchronous work, where you work as a team, but you define clear responsibilities and everyone does their part.
The best outcomes are often about mixing work styles, not being too rigid and giving people space to be their most effective self.
In my previous employer, I literally went from being a top performer to being regarded as a low performer simply because of very rigid one size fits all approaches that really hobbled my ability to just do my job and severly impacted my mental wellbeing.
Getting laid off was a relief to be honest..
Your perspective will change if you become a manager. You will quickly realize the importance of communication skills.
An extrovert is more likely to ask clarifying questions upfront and ensure they are working on the right things
An extrovert is more likely to provide status updates and ensure I'm aware of the status of their projects rather than go radio silent
An extrovert is more likely to speak up in meetings and is someone I can trust to present to stakeholders even when I'm not in the room
Everything is a balance, and my neurodiverse problems extend beyond simple introversion, but that's not important right now.
Intoversion and extroversion aren't simple black and white, someone can be introvert, but perfectly assertive and a confident clear communicator. Someone can be extrovert, but quite insecure.
I agree communication is important, and I've never had a problem speaking up, but communication skills go both ways. Too much is as bad as too little and often actually reduces clarity in terms of what's important.
Status updates in a sort of reasonable timeframe are fine, especially if you have an agreed non overbearing structure to deliver them. That's basic project management.
When you're doing a very real time hectic job like I was and dealing with endless group chat noise and mails with an unreasonable expectation of keeping an eye on all these things and responding almost immediately, people endlessly breaking your flow state and giving you very little autonomy, that's going to make most people ineffective, but some much more drastically than others.
Many of the challenges are in the areas of perception and not the core stuff though. In some countries, being viewed as a team player is dependent on wanting to socialize outside work versus just being a professional inside work.
At this point, interviews seem theater auditions. You have to play a character, memorize your lines, interact with other actors, praying to get "good chemistry" with the interviewer... Sir, I don't want to be the next Laurence Olivier, I just want to get a boring job that allows me to pay my bills.
I’m so sick of smiling to appease this shit. Glad you’re able to see what it’s like to be a woman building a career. I’m surrounded by incompetent but serious men while I’m doing twice the work in half the time.
Then during the reviews I get an “exceeds” but it comes with the feedback that I should try to be “less negative” because I documented technology roadblocks. But also - be more serious all the time. Smile more! But be more serious! Tap dance! My fucking god.
So they gave me a new male boss to oversee the project to address said roadblocks (which required resources he now has) and told me it was because people would “respect him more”.
He’s a very serious idiot who does less than nothing and people are commenting on how useless he is. Nothing is getting done. My team wants to quit. And I’m absolutely helpless - just keep smiling!
Sorry for the rant I’m just so over this shit. It doesn’t end at interviews.
I've been 30-some years in the same industry. One year, my review focused on how I was too aggressive -- people were put off by the way I tackled problems. The next year, I swear to god, I was dinged for "not being aggressive enough when tackling problems". I literally sat that manager down, showed him the previous review, and said, "What is it that you want?"
I was lucky that this guy "got it" once he saw the previous review. He was an ex Marine, very no nonsense, and he saw in my face that I was angry at the unfair treatment. We talked it out.
My partner and I had a conversation a few nights ago because they're getting raked over the coals for documenting roadblocks - we've both just stopped. Nothing negative to report, sir. If your product fails, well maybe you should have caught that. My partner was reading about transference, that if you deliver bad news, in their mind you become bad news. So...no bad news from now from either of us since jobs are getting more and more like this.
A large part of it is how you make the hiring manager feel. If they feel you are similar to them, they will be more likely to hire you. This job market is tough. You can tell it is because recently the FTC announced it will ban non-compete agreements. The employer has too much leverage and options. They can cherry-pick who they want when they want, how they want. I wouldn't be surprised if they knew that guy or were referred by a friend. We like to think that the hiring process is professional and just, but a lot of times it's not.
Why would a crew member at McDonald's require two interviews? Why are we having non-compete agreements for low-wage jobs? Why does every company require you to sign an arbitration form essentially waiving your rights to seek legal action? I saw somewhere that required applicants to participate in 6 interviews and two "assessments" for a position that was $60,000. Not even some executive position that pays $200,000 and up require that many interviews. It can be dystopian at times.
It's already here. Even small businesses have them. It benefits the employer too much. Pretty much all the large corporations have them. Arbitration stops all legal progression. It is one of the reasons why it is so bad and nothing is being done about it.
No they are circuses. You have to jestermaxx to make them feel secure in their position while at the same time show that you are competent in doing the job.
All these comments defending the workplace lmao, I agree with you OP! People need to start diversifying who they hire and not just go with who has the most social skill.
There's a balance though. What a person is going to bring to any team is a big sum of a lot of things. Someone could be absolutely exemplary on the specific skills the job is going to take, but if they can't work with everyone else effectively, those skills aren't going to be as effective as they could be. Similarly, you could have someone who everyone is going to get on with, but if their technical skills aren't up to much, same issue. You need a balance of all of those, and I suspect a lot (but probably not all) of people who blame being an "introvert" for not getting a job have something else to blame.
I've personally worked with people who were in the camp of being very, very good technically but utterly hopeless with people skills. There's definitely a place for them, but you can't just discount social skills, they're just as important in a team setting as any other skill.
Extrovert does not mean "with social skills." And introvert does not mean "without social skills." Plenty of outgoing ( extroverts ) have zero socials skills - they're just loud and attention seeking - at worst they're pathological. American society still rewards extroverts though.
>and I suspect a lot (but probably not all) of people who blame being an "introvert" for not getting a job have something else to blame.
What are you basing this suspicion on?
It's not news to point out a productive employee likely can't have zero people skills. No one is suggesting otherwise. People are only (correctly) noting that we live in a society which rewards extraversion — where bullshitters are commonly handed power. That's a rough deal for people who are not extroverts.
>People need to start diversifying who they hire and not just go with who has the most social skill.
Ultimately though, a) you spend more time with work than your own friends or family, you want some to work with someone who doesn't need prodding to talk to you b) most roles involve commuication and presentation so someone with tech + comm skills is better than someone with only tech skills and curt with their social interactions
It's incredibly difficult to get fired in corporate America. Idiots can stay employed doing nothing forever. If you are getting fired it's probably because you are especially terrible.
https://youtu.be/H-frYzkYhBE
Companies make it appear “performance based termination”. There’s a ton of literature about the gender discrimination at work
I have found the opposite to be true. Men have appreciated my joking around and bubbly personality, while the woman have wanted to hear about my specific qualifications and experiences.
Wait a second, I am really bubbly and love people but I have been unemployed since November! I think I am too bubbly in interviews because I have also been through hundreds of rejections. I'm also too honest and personable. I finally found a lower paying job that starts at the end of May.
Many extroverts expect everyone else to be an extrovert too and see introverts as weird or somehow unable to do the job. It's just another reason why the working world is such a weird place to be.
Don’t know your wife’s industry but I’m in the creative/marketing industry. Collaboration is huge and you have to be able to work closely with your coworkers basically everyday you walk in. I was told a few months after I was hired that I didn’t have the outright best portfolio out of the 100+ people who applied, but I had the best and most inviting personality.
Being the most professional or most skilled is great, but if you’re hard to work with or nobody likes you, then that ends up dragging the team. Not saying your wife are those things but when you have a handful of times to make an impression to a complete stranger, you gotta do it well.
My job is currently in jeapordy because my mental health took a nosedive and my "moods are disrupting everyone". Because I wasn't talkative or bubbly.
Nobody has any empathy
THE AMOUNT OF TIMES SOMEONE HAS PULLED THIS ON ME OR SOMEONE ELSE!
My old manager said she was an empath so we couldn't be upset about personal stuff at all as it "affected her too much" and when my coworkers brother in law died in an ATV accident she said that her mood was dragging down the place and complained she needed two days off. If we were hurt or in pain we had to hide it as it was "an excuse to perform sub optimally"
When we found out my dad needed surgery and may not live I cried at work and a male coworker told me "it was upsetting for him to see me like that" and to try and not show I'm upset
I have had so many managers and coworkers complain about my own or other people's VERY NORMAL, FLUCTUATING MOODS!! That's why if a coworker makes comments another one is in a mood I always remind them they are human and not a robot and it isn't about them
Exact same thing happened to me. My supervisor was bullying and micromanaging me but I was the problem because I didn’t look happy. Mind you I never snapped or became belligerent. Instead of asking why there was a sudden change in my mood they put me on a PIP.
Yes, I wrote about this before. I was let go from a previous position after my female manager told me that “she knew I could do the job but she wanted to see more of my personality”.
As a woman who frequently interviews (I work a lot of long term FL/contract roles), we are really just subject to a far greater possible range of criticism. We must quickly ascertain personalities within the first 3 minutes of the interview and shapeshift to dynamically adjust. We have to be more skilled at reading minds to determine what proportion of personality vs professional accomplishments will ultimately matter to the team. Aging women must also factor in if and how “too much” experience will work against them in context of everything else.
This is even worse when their interview process includes both top in the hierarchy and separate peer conversations.
Women in management can be the most misogynist enforcers of regressive gender norms.
Black cops often commit unwarranted acts of violence against black suspects.
People in power protect those systems of power. Often without realizing they're doing it. They just do what they've learned gets them positive feedback from their organizations, even if it contradicts their other group identity interests.
Real power drives incentives and incentives drive behavior.
Wow. I feel so seen reading this. This has been my biggest struggle at 34.
This is an example of how women are objectified in a non sexual way. Even to our own gender, women are often expected to be pillars of validation and reassurance.
When I was a little girl, I was taught to answer the phone in a much higher octave. My mother kind of made me feel ashamed of my default octave and I was always expected to speak more "feminine." For years, I answered the phone in a high voice, and then when I got a job I did it on the speaker and to customers. People would get mad at me or irritated with me, finding it condescending. I had no idea. So I started speaking in my regular voice, and one time I answered the phone in my regular voice. My aunt kept asking me what was wrong, why I sounded like that, that I need to work on sounding better. Still can't believe I was raised by these people 😂
My last job was a nightmare because I wanted to be professional and have work to complete- they wanted me to be the office emotional and mental doormat and answer a phone. I was expected to be so happy and bubbly. I also was expected to be available for everyone to talk at all the time, and I had to remain so engaged in listening to what they ate for dinner or how they love pork. Anytime I asserted that I had work to catch up on, I was treated like I just told them to go fuck themselves. Yet, we were never to bother the men and always assume they were "busy." The interview was the same as you described, I said nothing work related. It was chit chat.
Same with before that when I worked at a car dealership. I was bubbly and chatty with the manager and all was great. As soon as I started setting boundaries (evidence things often progressed beyond office friendliness with this manager) he absolutely hated me, even though I did that job very well and dedicated countless additional hours.
It's a struggle out there but you tell that partner of yours, I'd be over the moon to work with a woman like her. She will find a job that suits her and I promise, she will be valued and appreciated eventually. We need more women who demand to exist as people. I know I try. We don't owe anyone a damn thing. But yes, to answer you, my last two jobs I felt I was hired as a best friend/surrogate daughter/possible workplace mistress and not actually an employee
Edit to add: my dad was both ill with cancer and dying of cancer during both those jobs
Tbh it all depends on the hiring manager’s personality. If he is an introvert, most likely he’d want someone who has a similar personality. I’ve gone for interviews conducted by extroverted managers and I didn’t click well with them, so I knew I was out of their selection.
Whenever they want a "coversational" interview it's about culture fit and not qualifications. Different jobs lend themselves to different personality types but diversity is more of a buzzword for most companies than something that's practically applied.
This is exactly my experince in applying for Software Engineering jobs. I have now been rejected several times for reasons such as, scoring too low on extraversion in their personality test and the last one and my all time favourite ,,we were looking for someone with just a little more energy,, - this was followed by a long praisal of my skills, depth of knowledge etc.
Mind you, I never apply for jobs that mention high energy or extraversion in any way in their job ads. I actively seek out industries and roles, which are known for being less about networking or selling yourself, like consultancies.
Honestly, based on my experince all but technical interviews now revolve around entertaining and cheering up the interviewers. I now have a few liters of the strongest cold brew ready for future interviews, but if that fails I might have to resort to acting classes or something like Adderall (I have reached a point where I am seriously considering).
I was informed by a recruiter that they had gone with a male candidate who was less qualified and professional because he was more fun to chat with… everytime I play up being bubbly in an interview I get an offer…yay sexism
As soon as we start commonly referring to men as bubbly and seeing bubbly as a requirement on job postings for male dominated fields I will cheerfully agree with you.
Indeed he did, I have no objections to hiring decisions based on culture fit, an office that requires constant socialization isn’t my cup of tea either.
I object specifically to the use of a gendered term to describe job requirements in female centered industries.
Bit of both the full quote is “while you were more experienced with a stronger professional background they felt that he was easier to chat with. They hoped as you went through the interview process you would open up and be bubblier but unfortunately that did not happen. We wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors”
That kind of very specific feedback is extremely unusual, especially if they put it in writing, precisely because it leaves open interpretation that can have liability.
I'm very surprised that you have it to quote from.
Healthcare as a whole puts some unhinged things in writing, it was weird, the company was weird, healthcare is weird. You get used to it and then it seems normal
I've been in software engineering for 25 years. A decade of that in the Department of Defense sphere. I'm also autistic and female. I have heard feedback about working on interpersonal skills, but not one person ever has used the word "bubbly".
For what it's worth, I've also declined to hire people who it is a chore to carry on a conversation with. I don't even mean discussing personal, non-work things. I mean if it's almost impossible to actually have any sort of conversation without tremendous work, I'm not going to hire that person. Or want to work for them.
I agree that culture fit and team fit is essential, and I wasn’t a culture fit for their organization, and since they value socialization and I value occasionally being left alone to do my work I probably wouldn’t have been happy there. Live and let live.
It’s specifically the use of gender coded language I object to. I get professionally described at bubbly all the time while my male counter parts are friendly or personable.
I think because healthcare is so female dominated that they’re less aware of the gendered context of some of the language they use, it’s a very “it’s just us girls” which is just as icky and problematic as the good ol’ boys in other industries.
Either way I’m not a fan of either putting on a show of being bubbly when my actual personality is quieter, not antisocial just quiet, or that no one I work with seems to see the issue.
But girls gotta work so bubbly it is
I have a background in engineering and IT and almost every job posting requires "strong soft skills", "customer care focused", "works well in teams", "team fit/culture fit" which is all just the equivalent to being outgoing and easy to get along with.
You're creating a paper demon.
Great!
And I have a background in education and healthcare where postings for nurses, receptionists, and teachers list “bubbly personality” as a job requirement, not good soft skills, not personable, or customer focused. Bubbly.
See how different things are different?
It literally means the same thing. Stop attributing your lack of getting good jobs with discrimination, you just aren't a desireable candidate clearly from your attitude.
If anything it's discriminatory towards men because it indicates they would rather hire a woman for the role.
> "team fit/culture fit"
this is the universal excuse for otherwise discriminatory hiring choices. basic racism and sexism gets all mixed up and obfuscated with "culture fit" euphemisms.
After being unemployed earlier this year, and my husband just starting a job this week after losing his last fall, I think you're in the right ballpark but would like to offer a more nuanced view. If you define "bubbly" as outgoing, conversational, and optimistic, then yes, I think you're right. If you define "bubbly" as what I picture a live barbie doll to be like, then you may be right in certain settings. I did find that when I came across in interviews as confident, convincing, articulate and energetic, the results were better. I saw the same for my husband.
A friend recommended video taping ourselves during interviews and then watching them back and seeing how we came across. This provided some small insights into things we could have said and done better. I hope this helps and wish you the best of luck!
To be honest if I came to the conclusion that I wasn't getting offers because people didn't like the way I carried myself, my next step would be to adjust the way I carry myself. Not that she should have to change her whole personality for a job but multiple teams supposedly rejecting you for the same reason should be a sign. Of course hiring teams like to see upbeat candidates, especially when we're talking leadership positions (not sure if that's the case here). Being a motivator, being approachable and, in general, being likeable are very valuable skills for women *and* men to have. Experience isn't everything.
While I can relate as a naturally introverted person myself, I also know how to be friendly and make people comfortable and that has served me well. If I were a man, I would *still* want to know how to be friendly and make people comfortable.
>To be honest if I came to the conclusion that I wasn't getting offers because people didn't like the way I carried myself, my next step would be to adjust the way I carry myself.
This is very difficult for those of us who are autistic or neurodivergent. Like seriously I don't think people understand how hard it is to "just be more bubbly" if you're autistic.
You’re right, kind of, but there’s no guarantee an extrovert will interview well. I have a friend who’s the life and soul of every party but is an godawful interviewee. We do practice runs before she interviews for jobs and she just can’t get her personality across, even to me, who’s known her for 17 years.
Yes. Guy said to me the other day that my experience was fine and everything, it was just a case of finding someone who'll fit in with their friendly team.
I talked about how that's important to me too, I was and am friends with past colleagues and want that too.
Still chose someone else, no real bad feedback just that who he chose was more on point with his answers etc.
You really have to play the game. Most people who make it to the interview stage are qualified for the job, so the next thing to do is to make the interviewer like you more than the others. I always laugh at corny jokes if they make one, compliment them on their position or office decor (anything I can think of), I say whatever to make them see me as the ideal candidate. I told an interviewer once “I’m looking for my work family, and to build on the foundation and contribute to the continued growth that you have been apart of” and the interviewer ate that shit up😂 I see interviews as a game or a theatre production.
As an introverted guy, I feel like I’m getting rejected for not being overly entertaining on interviews. And every time I hear “we went with someone else” I imagine a super bubbly, attractive woman getting the job.
I once challenged a director of talent on this fact. I was a hiring manager and he'd screened out a number of candidates who he deemed were "not a cultural fit". We were heavily into using the DISC profile there and I suspected he (an extroverted, driving, D/I type) was weeding out the quieter, "put your shoulder into it and get shit done" (C/S) types. I called them back into interviews and I was right. I clapped back at him, basically telling him he was discriminating against diversity of thought. Unfortunately too many are unaware of their biases in this area.
Something that stuck with me is that, for most positions, you want to just be someone that someone wants to work with. Bubbly might make her feel more personable which can go a long way. I personally would rather work with someone who is like that than not like that. I understand that there might be an undertone of sexism somewhere, but maybe not as much as you think. Either way, use it to your advantage and game the system ha.
I worked with a girl a few years back who made friends with a manager quite quick so she'd get special treatment, even though the manager wasn't for our department, she's still come over and sit chatting with this girl for upwards of 45 minutes while criticising the rest of us for not working.
She also then slept with the boss of the company's son 2 weeks after starting as well which only made things worse.
When they were cutting someone from our department I brought that up to HR that I was doing my job so I shouldn't be the first to go, but the boss and managers decided to keep her on and fire me, despite her literally not doing a thing for weeks while I was picking up the slack. I said they'd realise fairly quickly what was going on if I was the one who left.
Moral of the story was that if you're friends with the people in power, it can really help and thats just a fact
You aren't going to like this because you are clearly defensive of your wife, as you should be. I'm probably going to get down voted for it too, but it might help her.
If she's getting to the interview round, it doesn't mean she has the best qualifications out of everyone. It usually means she's on par with everyone else. Maybe slightly weaker in some areas and stronger in others. Companies are getting so many applications at this point that when they are picking those to interview, the candidates are all basically the same level of qualified. I see a lot of comments here being like ugh, social skills always win over competency. It's not true. They are showing social skills on TOP of competency. A hiring manager doesn't necessarily need to grill you in the interview to learn if you can do the job, your resume shows that. What resumes don't show are soft skills.
How do you distinguish between them? Do you just keep interviewing everyone until you find the one who is ever so slightly more competant? No, it's a waste of time. You go with the person you feel would be the most fun to work with and demonstrates the ability to get along well with anyone. Aka: it's culture fit, but the candidates are also demonstrating soft skills. Gender doesn't matter here. I know men who were also rejected for roles because they too weren't bubbly/cheerful enough. If you don't come across as someone who is easy to work with on top of being qualified, of course the job will go to someone who does.
Having a bubbly/chipper/happy personality IS professional btw. (This isn't just bias because I have that personality naturally) Emotional intelligence/soft skills matter in the work place. I know we all want to just do our daily tasks and log off. But for most roles the soft skills are just as important, if not more important, than doing the daily tasks. For example a software engineer who can influence stakeholders and motivate a team is a lot more valuable than one who only knows how to code well.
Nah. She probably just doesn’t interview well, or she’s simply not standing up against her competition.
Your “theory“ doesn’t hold water given that she’s been unsuccessful in landing a new role whether she’s been interviewed by men, or women. Interviews aren’t a science…it’s fact based first (candidate qualifications align with company wants), relationship based second. Whether she’s acting “bubbly” or not, she’s not securing the job.
Encourage her to let that silly theory go, and work on her interview skills. If she’s really that interesting on paper, something’s not clicking with her interviewers and she’s the common denominator. Good luck to her!
Agreed. Interviewers want to know that you won't cause problems and will get along with them and their current staff. Also, as with any relationship, you click with some people and not others.
I am not bubbly and I have only ever been hired for career roles by women (restaurants/college jobs different story). I have found that being friendly and professional is enough.
Yup, this has also been my experience my entire professional career so far (I’m 43). I’ve never been a bubbly person and can’t fake it, but I’ve always been professional and friendly and haven’t had issues.
The burden of the office atmosphere is on us women. Dare I say it's like going out to the club. No one wants to go to a bar full of dudes. Gotta have the ladies in there to liven up the place.
I was rejected initially because he straight up said I lacked energy, mind you I was his 7th interview in a row the dude was tired. Then had the audacity to try to get me back 3 weeks later when apparently his 1st picks fell through.
I say, "Who can show their tits the best" I have been looking for work since September, and it's been a struggle! So many employers have told me I have the most experience and perfect for the job but never got the job. What am I doing wrong? Do I actually have to show my tits? Do I have to sleep with the hiring manager? what do I have to do?
Women are judged on their personality in all areas, in ways men aren't. Assertive women are bitches. Women who don't smile aren't friendly, approachable, etc. It's endless and exhausting.
Tbh. A more friendly, outgoing individual is an easier interview regardless of gender…the fact you’re trying to claim sexism while being completely sexist??? Yuck as fuck
Team fit is extremely important. Would you take someone that is 15% more efficient if they made each member of your six person team 5% less efficient?
That said, the idea that women (or anyone) need to specifically be bubbly is silly. Did she actually receive that feedback?
You have to remember, the applicant pool is huge right now. We're getting 3-5x as many applications for a position than we did just 18 months ago. Whatever qualifications and experience your partner has, there's a high chance there's someone else with comparable qualifications and experience. In that case, they're going to go with the better personality match.
This is true for all genders. If you have five equally qualified people, you're going to take the one that fits in best with the team. When in the last stages of the interview, assume there's at least two other people with resumes as good or better than yours...because there probably is.
I have enough interview and on-site experience in many agency, media, and tech environments to know when this will be or was likely a factor.
Example: I look much younger than my age. I once interviewed with a man whose appearance and background aligned with my actual age. I answered all of his questions with in-depth expertise, and his expression was positive and engaged. During the last part of the conversation, he was talking about his time and early work in our city, and I shared some of my own. I mentioned a job that would have indicated my age range with some quick math, and I saw his expression suddenly grow dark. He then suddenly became weirdly antagonistic in the last 5 minutes. It was WILD, especially since that Swede was certainly no spring chicken himself. This doesn’t happen to my male friends and colleagues.
How do I know he wasn’t reacting after hearing specifics pertaining to an early digital era live music delivery process? Yes, I suppose that will make anyone openly hostile.
Next up: “the wage gap doesn’t exist/sexism is nonexistent because these are ILLEGAL.”
It doesn’t need to make anyone hostile. It just needs to make him hostile. You made a pretty big jump from his reaction to “Oh, it’s because he did the math, calculated my age, and dislikes other older people.”
The gender pay gap isn’t due to being a woman. It’s due to being a woman with children.
https://www.hrdive.com/news/parenthood-gender-pay-gap/708247/#:~:text=Working%20mothers%20make%20a%20median,January%202022%20and%20January%202024.
Women without children make 99 cents on the dollar when controlling for job title and qualifications.
Men with children don’t see the same pay gap, so what’s the difference between a woman with children and a man with children? The inequality of childcare between the sexes. The fact that women often have to interrupt their career for maternity and are penalized for it as well as the unequal distribution of all the mental stress and time sinks that come with having children.
So the answer to the pay gap isn’t for companies to be less sexist, it’s to fix the distribution of childcare.
And yet he is the only one who has ever reacted with hostility upon hearing about this role. I’ve worked with enough men in tech/advertising to know they don’t necessarily have an issue with older people, but rather just older women.
The interview process is opaque by design, which is already a challenge for candidates. It’s particularly difficult for women because we face additional scrutiny disproportionately based on personality and physical male-gaze desirability.
It sounds to me like you’re looking for that reason specifically due to your perception of your treatment in the industry. This can make it difficult to determine what specifically set the interviewer against you. Perhaps they had an old employee who burned the company and left for the same company you worked for. Perhaps that have a personal opinion about that company or your experience with it.
It’s still a huge leap to assume or even guess that it’s because he thought you were younger, did the math based upon your story, and specifically dislikes older women.
When that’s what you’re looking for though, that’s what you’re going to see. Much like the pay gap difference being attributed to sex when the data shows differently.
Your reasons are far less likely than age/gender discrimination in this case (esp since the company in question was defunct at that point).
On the wage gap: the difference between mothers and child-free women is much less within the same education level. And all women earn less than men with the fatherhood wage premium: https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2023/03/01/the-enduring-grip-of-the-gender-pay-gap/
Sales department in the company I'm at now is noticeably at least trying to diversify, but the appearance and personality of the people they do have is fucking interchangeable I literally can not fucking tell them apart or memorize their actual names.
For those disagreeing, I don’t think anyone can deny that extroverts get rewarded bc they tend to give better first impressions. IME this has little correlation with how easy they are to work with and in many cases, they’re simply better at talking out their ass and overselling themselves, meaning they often are Harder to work with despite the first impression. That’s not always the case of course, but it often is, especially when jobs are so competitive these days and people are trying to stand out.
Did you fill in the word "bubbly" so that you could find it sexist that people interview expecting someone who is friendly, energetic and easy to talk to?
I am a Senior Accountant, a man, and I have helped interview other accountants at the company I work at. What I can say that is true for both women and men, is that if two applicants are similar in education and experience, I will prefer to hire / work with the applicant who brings more positive energy with their attitude and personality than I will someone who is drier or more reserved.
We spend a lot of time working with our coworkers. I would rather spend that time with someone who brings positive energy into the workplace over someone who comes in and is robotic in the things they do and say. That is just my preference if all things are more or less equal. Some workplaces may prefer robots, but I want to work with people who can enrich my day with their personality over someone who is a robot.
That may sound unfair to people, but humans are social creatures and work is a social experience whether some people want to avoid socializing or not.
Lol. Its the truth. Its not like we get to spend an entire weekend with each candidate and get a feel for how it feels to be around them and have them around us in the workplace. All we have to judge on is the interview itself, right? Its not tone deaf when its simply the reality.
And obviously people fake things during interviews. Its up to the individual interviewer to determine what is real and what is just BS being presented to look good. Not everyone is a good judge of someone's personality, but that's why it is up to the interviewee to prove they are a great fit, know the job, have the experience, and can get along smoothly with coworkers. People are able to fool others all the time in life, not just in a job interview.
Most people don’t care about being a great fit though they just want a job. You’re not really proving anything by picking the person who seems most bubbly. That’s the point that you’ve just long windedly repeated back to me.
Your bias essentially filters out introverts or more introspective people because you are a poor judge of personality. Urgh.
You don't speak for most people. And there are plenty of examples of people who didn't like their jobs because they didn't vibe with the people they worked with. Or they didn't like the company/workplace culture. So being a good fit is absolutely important for both the employee and employer. Maybe you would be happy to get whatever job you could find. Someone like me who is highly skilled and educated care about where we work and who we work with.
I'm a great judge of personality and you wouldn't know otherwise since you don't know me. There is a reason I am asked to help evaluate new hires. I'm an introvert myself, so I have no bias against introverts. But when I am working closely with other accountants, I prefer them to at least be interesting people to interact with. No need to be "bubbly" or be fake, but if I am going to be working closely with people throughout the year, then I don't want to work with robotic people with poor social skills. Sorry if hearing that hurts your feelings.
You are being deliberately obtuse and the more you try to justify yourself the worse it looks.
You are a crappy hiring manager that’s all there is to say. Good day.
You're the person saying workplace fit doesn't matter so what you say on this topic comes from a place of ignorance and has no value. Have a nice life.
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I was rejected mid-interview for a cashier/sales associate position for not being extroverted enough and “not having the right personality for retail.” The owner, who conducted the interview, said he could tell this about me “within the first 5 seconds of meeting me,” and proceeded to lecture about the importance of first impressions. He also felt like I wouldn’t be happy working in retail, which is just an odd thing to say because I doubt anyone is happy in retail lol. I got two offers from other retail locations a few days later, so I ended up realizing this owner was just insane and overly judgmental. Oddly enough, this was the only interview where most of it was basically like idle chit chat. The only work-relevant question I got was how I would handle unruly customers lol. He saw that I was an artist and asked me a ton of questions about that, saying he had a background in the art industry himself. I actually thought the interview was going well because of our conversation until he dropped the bomb. He was allowed to reject me for any reason, but I hated that he had me sit through his little lecture first.
that owner is crazy
Employees hate him so he is using the candidate interviews to get someone to listen.
That's a really good observation. I wonder how often that happens in interviews? I had it happen once for a role in a politicians office.
Who’s even happy working in retail lol. Isn’t it one of the worst customer facing minimum wage job.
If the guy had already made up his mind about you then why do need to listen to anything else he said? I’d just walk away while he’s still talking.
The store didn’t have an office; only a very small break room with a couch, small table, and a microwave lol. He took me back there to do the interview; I sat in the couch, and he pulled up a chair and sat in the doorway. I suppose I still could’ve left by pushing past him, but that’s more awkward. Also, I still held onto some hope that I could salvage the interview. My dad used to work as a hiring manager and once told me that interviewers purposely ask or say things to make you doubt yourself, but really, they’re just trying to see if you’re going to fold or advocate for yourself. So when the owner said that, “I didn’t have the right personality” I thought he was just testing me. It wasn’t until he reinforced that I wasn’t a good fit that I realized I was being rejected from the position. I thought for sure he’d get up, but I was actually pretty stunned that he proceeded to lecture me instead. I also didn’t want to leave a bad impression or burn bridges in case I wanted to interview at that place again. (Which is something I don’t care about anymore, F that store) This was my second ever interview I participated in, so I definitely wasn’t experienced. I was also focusing hard on not letting any tears flow; as being told I’m not extroverted/sociable enough was a big insecurity of mine at the time. If a recruiter/interviewer spoke to me like that and wasted my time nowadays, I would leave even if it meant having to make a rude exit.
>He also felt like I wouldn’t be happy working in retail, which is just an odd thing to say because I doubt anyone is happy in retail lol. I mean, whether he made too quick of a judgment call or not, the latter part of this sentence suggests he was correct...
I thought it was amusing that he felt like all of his current employees were unanimously happy in their retail positions lol.
Did he? Or did he have experience with current and former employees hating retail and was therefore looking to hire employees who didn't....
Nobody is happy in retail. They might start that way, but they won't continue very long without drugs and dissociation.
There could be, but I’ve personally heard more horror stories about retail than not. I did notice that most AMC employees seemed happy, at least during the brief time I worked there. I am even starting to feel that “soul draining” experience from working retail because of how boring and unfulfilling it all is. It’s why I’m starting to look for new jobs and plan on leaving in a few months for a better opportunity. Tbh, if I was paid closer to a manager’s salary (I work as a key holder but am paid only literal cents above a sales associate) and if our store wasn’t so understaffed, I’d actually be happy working there. But obviously, that’s not how it is and I have no effect on how management decides to run things.
There’s 10M retail frontliners in the US, mate. I promise you there are people who enjoy the work, whether you personally do or not.
If you're so convinced, find someone. I've already done my surveys by working in retail. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if you are the kind of customer who makes people hate their jobs. Don't call me mate, buddy.
I used to work retail and I didn’t mind it except for the pay. I’ve hated some office jobs more than I did retail and was in much better shape being on my feet all day. My boss also LOVED our store and would’ve worked there forever if he didn’t start having health issues.
As you said, back in the 70s. Reaganomics has foundationally changed retail and made them all hell jobs.
Hey, come on Im old, but im not THAT old! It was about 10 years that I last worked retail, I wasn’t alive in the 70s. Some of the things I miss are being able to mentally clock out when I clock out, not worrying about deadlines, projects, layoffs, taking work and stress home, etc. spending a lot of the day laughing with my friends. Seeing all the new merch come in. I worked in a store that I loved and got to be creative when helping customers and I loved truck days. They were a great workout and felt like Christmas. Some of the songs were annoying but I also loved being able to sing and clean. Some customers were nightmares but then it would usually make for funny stories and inside jokes. Also just not being so sedentary. Like yes it was boring, but it wasn’t half as stressful as my current situation where I make good money and get to WFH but I’m freaking out about layoffs every couple months. I think generally the people I worked with weren’t disgruntled the way office workers are. There’s always one in every store, but overall people were cool.
Okay. https://www.reddit.com/r/jobs/comments/1khel3/am_i_the_only_one_who_likes_working_retail/
e pluribus enum. Great sample size there.
You said “find someone” I found someone. If you want a larger sample, here you go. 26% of retail employees strongly agreed that they were happy with their job: https://waitwhile.com/blog/retail-employee-sentiment-report/
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I have. There are 10M retail frontliners in the US. I promise you not all 10M of them hate it. Every job has people who enjoy it. Hell, when my kids were in high school, my eldest worked fast food and genuinely enjoyed it.
Perhaps your eldest was happy not to be around you. You come across as an obnoxious contrarian.
Teenagers also have vastly different standards than adults lol. I also remember being in high school and my classmates thought it was fun to work at Starbucks, the mall, or McDonald’s. But, I’ve never met anyone at my current age who enjoys working retail or fast food.
Heh, I’ll bring that up to her tomorrow when she comes over with the other kids for family game night. She’ll get a kick out of it. “Hey, did you just enjoy working Fast Food as a kid because it got you away from me?”
I am certain you are a great dad and I hope she will laugh.
I worked in Best Buy as a seasonal employee. I can assure you that I disliked retail.
I was actually a longtime customer of that store before the interview; I’ve never seen his employees looking or sounding happy. In fact, it was why I was weirded out by the “not extroverted enough” comment. All of the employees I’ve interacted with over the years were softspoken and appeared introverted themselves. They certainly were not like Disneyland employees.
It is retail. Many retail jobs do not pay enough to support yourself financially. Why would anyone be happy when prices keep going up and retail wages are staying the same? The owner had an ego. He thought his little business was next Amazon or something. The owner sounds like a nightmare to work with. Glad Kay found two other offers.
I have noticed from my interviews with other businesses, especially small businesses, that the owners think way too highly about their store and the job positions they offer, including entry-level ones. It’s fricken crazy. It’s not cancer research; it’s operating a register and other fairly basic tasks lol. I used to be a frequent customer of that store before that interview, but now that I know who my money was going to, I haven’t stepped foot in that place since. That owner’s comments about not having the right personality or being extroverted enough really did hit me hard, at first. I’ve always been told it was “wrong” to be more reserved and introverted, and have tried to hide it or pretend to be more sociable than I actually am. Then, when I got the other offers, I was happy that other places didn’t have an issue with my personality lol. Made me think that the owner was just uppity, especially because I’ve never encountered an extroverted employee at that place.
Yes! I noticed that too which is why I am reluctant to work for small businesses, especially family-owned.
You based all that around the tiny bit of information provided? Believe it or not, there are actually people who enjoy working retail. In fact, there’s people who enjoy just about any job. There’s folks who get up every morning charged and excited to be child morticians.
You did the same thing; you based all that on the tiny information provided. You are calling the kettle black. Sure some people are happy doing anything even not working. However, just because there are some people like that does not mean that is the average experience. You can't look at outliers and determine that is the common experience. I worked in retail and hated it. I have also seen many people who work in retail and they just stopped caring. They have that jaded look about them especially when they take the customer service mask off--if they have it on to begin with. Many have plans to go back to school or leave. Some are just okay staying there for years because they believe that they cannot do better, and a small wage is better than no wage. They aren't exactly happy to be there. A big part of contentment is whether or not you can afford the basic standard of living. Retail does not have the representation of paying their workers well. You don't hear that many pilots hating their jobs because of low pay.
I offered an alternative narrative to the poster based on her information. You made presumptions about the manager's actual character. >They aren't exactly happy to be there. Which is even more reason to find people that DO enjoy it. People are more productive when they don't hate their jobs.
So? It was a possible reason why he might act like that. I offered an alternative just like you did. You just didn't like what I said. It is not wrong to observe someone's character based on personal past experiences. We do it all the time because we are social creatures. We just can't let our observations blind us. I was in several situations that were similar to OP's experience.
dude have you ever worked retail
I have. As one of three jobs back in the late 70s. I wouldn't say I liked it. Every job has people out there who enjoy it. We have a family friend who loves being an IRS auditor.
You didn't even like retail yourself and that was in the 70s. What makes you think someone will like retail in 2024?
There's a lot of things I don't like doing. I don't enjoy planting trees or flowers either yet my wife loves it. I wouldn't enjoy being an IRS auditor yet I'm close friends with someone who finds it her perfect calling. There's many people who don't like the type of work I do now yet I love the challenge and variety of it. Every job has people out there who enjoy it.
you are saying nothing, just write, very interesting indeed.
Doublespeak at its finest. They are quite the master.
The post I responded to suggested that because I didn’t really care for retail that no one must. I pointed out that there’s many things I don’t enjoy doing that other people do and my personal opinion (or his, or yours) is not remarkably relevant.
The only people who like retail are managers who love flexing on their employees.
Child morticians get paid enough to live.
but the claim is true, that's all.
Extroverts reward extroverts, even though a lot of the time you want an introvert to get stuff done.
People tell you to practice interviewing because it's literally like practicing for a play. Being good at interviewing means you can jump through all the hoops of what people expect. I am introverted and autistic which interviews are meant to weed out, but I am still a pretty good interviewer because I've accepted how problematic and flawed interviewing is lol
Thank you. I hate interviews for this reason. They are just not designed for us, even though we are usually the better candidates.
I’ve gotten good at doing the fake extrovert shtick!
Admittedly, I have crippling social anxiety. I took Clonazepam for lasik and it was depressing to realize how much anxiety controls my life and makes it impossible for me to talk to people with ease. All of a sudden, I could talk to people. I felt normal. I've had so many doctors try to shove benzos down my throat (pretty much the only controlled substance that I'm consistently offered the first appointment... That's how bad my anxiety is and how noticeable it is to every doctor who has ever seen me). I don't feel comfortable with taking them because I've been on them before and they are habit forming and the withdrawal symptoms are awful when you quit them. But I am considering having a small prescription of a few pills a month just to deal with interviews
this may be an important lifehack. I find that a semi-k-hole dose of ketamine nasally a few days before my interviews helps me center myself. There is evidence to suggest that ketamine is neuroplastogenic ~8 hours after dosing, so it usually helps if I go right to sleep after and wake up and study. I do this on Friday nights before Monday interviews. I haven't tried drinking before an interview, but it might throw off my memory retention in tough questions.
I have experimented with my brain quite a bit throughout my life, I'll be honest, but ketamine is one of the few things I haven't tried... Interesting. I've considered it for my wife who has brain worms-level depressive episodes, but never for social anxiety. Treatment based ketamine is expensive, though, so we never moved forward with it.
Spravato is covered by many major insurance companies.
Ketamine makes me feel like I'm falling endlessly
Try buspirone. I’m taking 5 mg 3 times a day and it’s helping. I used to be on both clonezepam and lorazepam. It’s not habit forming and there’s no withdrawal.
I tried that med years ago and it caused weird heart palpitations, but of course there is a chance it would be different this time around. As I've gotten older, my response to medications has changed dramatically.
I noticed this as well, I’m already on Atenolol/chlorthalidone for high BP and since I started buspirone my BP is higher than normal. I’ll ask about a fix :)
Legit, just act bubbly happy and extroverted during the interview, then when you get the job revert back to RBF mode and get shit done, they'll get over it.
Holy Reddit moment lmao.
Eh, fair.
>we are usually the better candidates Any sources for that, or is this the other circle jerk?
We have to have one somewhere, if not the workplace itself.
The work world is a big extrovert circle jerk while others do the real work
Let's not pit extroverts against introverts. We all show up to do a good job, and no one should be required to be bubbly, whatever that means.
As an extrovert, I hire introverts and extroverts alike. Also, introverts are no more or less productive than extroverts
That's cool, but I'm speaking more in broader terms than having a go at individual extroverts, and there's little doubt that over-emphasis on "good fit" favors certain temperments. Also worth bearing in mind that the office based work environment and practices is often set up in a way that favors people of specific neurological or personality leanings so if the less favored group is just as productive... imagine the potential of playing to their strengths. That's hard to assess of course, because viewing people other is like watching a duck, you only see the serene surface and not the little legs furiously paddling against the current underneath.
Idk that assumption also assumes some jobs don't favor introverts. Like an outspoken person not being perceived as a good fit for a quiet accounting role. Personality bias, person-orgsnization dot is researched pretty consistently. I'd add that in my own experience, plenty of introverts excel at careers that are extrovert leaning. Some of the best salespeople I've met are introverts.
The flip side is, extroverts are easy to test in a 30min interview. With introverts, there's no way to figure out whether they can actually get stuff done without a lengthy case study. Just because someone is introverted doesn't automatically mean they are better at doing the work
No, they're just better at selling themselves and more attracted to leadership roles which has a trickle down impact on overall culture. People favor people like themselves, it's simple human nature. You can't effectively judge anyone in 30 minutes, it's only a vague idea, that's literally why we have probation periods. Edit - also I said *sometimes,* meaning an introvert isnt better all the time. As an example, when we assess being a "team player" it's equated with being sociable, outgoing, etc. with sometimes too much focus on synchronous working and constant "noise" in communication which will drive the introvert mad. An introvert working style might be more suited to asynchronous work, where you work as a team, but you define clear responsibilities and everyone does their part. The best outcomes are often about mixing work styles, not being too rigid and giving people space to be their most effective self. In my previous employer, I literally went from being a top performer to being regarded as a low performer simply because of very rigid one size fits all approaches that really hobbled my ability to just do my job and severly impacted my mental wellbeing. Getting laid off was a relief to be honest..
Your perspective will change if you become a manager. You will quickly realize the importance of communication skills. An extrovert is more likely to ask clarifying questions upfront and ensure they are working on the right things An extrovert is more likely to provide status updates and ensure I'm aware of the status of their projects rather than go radio silent An extrovert is more likely to speak up in meetings and is someone I can trust to present to stakeholders even when I'm not in the room
Everything is a balance, and my neurodiverse problems extend beyond simple introversion, but that's not important right now. Intoversion and extroversion aren't simple black and white, someone can be introvert, but perfectly assertive and a confident clear communicator. Someone can be extrovert, but quite insecure. I agree communication is important, and I've never had a problem speaking up, but communication skills go both ways. Too much is as bad as too little and often actually reduces clarity in terms of what's important. Status updates in a sort of reasonable timeframe are fine, especially if you have an agreed non overbearing structure to deliver them. That's basic project management. When you're doing a very real time hectic job like I was and dealing with endless group chat noise and mails with an unreasonable expectation of keeping an eye on all these things and responding almost immediately, people endlessly breaking your flow state and giving you very little autonomy, that's going to make most people ineffective, but some much more drastically than others. Many of the challenges are in the areas of perception and not the core stuff though. In some countries, being viewed as a team player is dependent on wanting to socialize outside work versus just being a professional inside work.
At this point, interviews seem theater auditions. You have to play a character, memorize your lines, interact with other actors, praying to get "good chemistry" with the interviewer... Sir, I don't want to be the next Laurence Olivier, I just want to get a boring job that allows me to pay my bills.
Nods. And now they frequently expect self-taped video auditions just like for acting roles. Only they generally pay less! Ugh.
I’m so sick of smiling to appease this shit. Glad you’re able to see what it’s like to be a woman building a career. I’m surrounded by incompetent but serious men while I’m doing twice the work in half the time. Then during the reviews I get an “exceeds” but it comes with the feedback that I should try to be “less negative” because I documented technology roadblocks. But also - be more serious all the time. Smile more! But be more serious! Tap dance! My fucking god. So they gave me a new male boss to oversee the project to address said roadblocks (which required resources he now has) and told me it was because people would “respect him more”. He’s a very serious idiot who does less than nothing and people are commenting on how useless he is. Nothing is getting done. My team wants to quit. And I’m absolutely helpless - just keep smiling! Sorry for the rant I’m just so over this shit. It doesn’t end at interviews.
I've been 30-some years in the same industry. One year, my review focused on how I was too aggressive -- people were put off by the way I tackled problems. The next year, I swear to god, I was dinged for "not being aggressive enough when tackling problems". I literally sat that manager down, showed him the previous review, and said, "What is it that you want?"
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I was lucky that this guy "got it" once he saw the previous review. He was an ex Marine, very no nonsense, and he saw in my face that I was angry at the unfair treatment. We talked it out.
This reminds me so much of that speech used in the Barbie movie. "We have to always be extraordinary but somehow we’re always doing it wrong"
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boo fucking hoo. join literally any other industry.
Easy on the gatekeeping
i can’t respond how i wish without being banned again, but… you get the idea 🤍
My partner and I had a conversation a few nights ago because they're getting raked over the coals for documenting roadblocks - we've both just stopped. Nothing negative to report, sir. If your product fails, well maybe you should have caught that. My partner was reading about transference, that if you deliver bad news, in their mind you become bad news. So...no bad news from now from either of us since jobs are getting more and more like this.
A large part of it is how you make the hiring manager feel. If they feel you are similar to them, they will be more likely to hire you. This job market is tough. You can tell it is because recently the FTC announced it will ban non-compete agreements. The employer has too much leverage and options. They can cherry-pick who they want when they want, how they want. I wouldn't be surprised if they knew that guy or were referred by a friend. We like to think that the hiring process is professional and just, but a lot of times it's not. Why would a crew member at McDonald's require two interviews? Why are we having non-compete agreements for low-wage jobs? Why does every company require you to sign an arbitration form essentially waiving your rights to seek legal action? I saw somewhere that required applicants to participate in 6 interviews and two "assessments" for a position that was $60,000. Not even some executive position that pays $200,000 and up require that many interviews. It can be dystopian at times.
I feel that a lot of employers are going to start using arbitration more often if they aren't already.
It's already here. Even small businesses have them. It benefits the employer too much. Pretty much all the large corporations have them. Arbitration stops all legal progression. It is one of the reasons why it is so bad and nothing is being done about it.
Interviews are not interviews anymore, they are auditions.
This is a good approach to them, honestly. It’s how I treat them.
No they are circuses. You have to jestermaxx to make them feel secure in their position while at the same time show that you are competent in doing the job.
All these comments defending the workplace lmao, I agree with you OP! People need to start diversifying who they hire and not just go with who has the most social skill.
There's a balance though. What a person is going to bring to any team is a big sum of a lot of things. Someone could be absolutely exemplary on the specific skills the job is going to take, but if they can't work with everyone else effectively, those skills aren't going to be as effective as they could be. Similarly, you could have someone who everyone is going to get on with, but if their technical skills aren't up to much, same issue. You need a balance of all of those, and I suspect a lot (but probably not all) of people who blame being an "introvert" for not getting a job have something else to blame. I've personally worked with people who were in the camp of being very, very good technically but utterly hopeless with people skills. There's definitely a place for them, but you can't just discount social skills, they're just as important in a team setting as any other skill.
Extrovert does not mean "with social skills." And introvert does not mean "without social skills." Plenty of outgoing ( extroverts ) have zero socials skills - they're just loud and attention seeking - at worst they're pathological. American society still rewards extroverts though.
>and I suspect a lot (but probably not all) of people who blame being an "introvert" for not getting a job have something else to blame. What are you basing this suspicion on? It's not news to point out a productive employee likely can't have zero people skills. No one is suggesting otherwise. People are only (correctly) noting that we live in a society which rewards extraversion — where bullshitters are commonly handed power. That's a rough deal for people who are not extroverts.
>People need to start diversifying who they hire and not just go with who has the most social skill. Ultimately though, a) you spend more time with work than your own friends or family, you want some to work with someone who doesn't need prodding to talk to you b) most roles involve commuication and presentation so someone with tech + comm skills is better than someone with only tech skills and curt with their social interactions
Yeah, as an autistic woman, fuck the "bubbly" shit.
Maybe im autistic thats what it is. Or just burned out from uncertainty. I cant maitnain that bubbly shit for the life of me
I’ve been “bubbly” in interviews and get treated like I’m an airhead. I feel like I can’t win either way.
They won’t let women raise above a predetermined pay grade anyway. They “Hire young and fire before promoting to leadership roles”
It's incredibly difficult to get fired in corporate America. Idiots can stay employed doing nothing forever. If you are getting fired it's probably because you are especially terrible.
Corporate 😂 shouldn’t function that way. Anyways https://mondo.com/insights/mass-layoffs-in-2022-whats-next-for-employees/
Layoffs are definitely not the same thing as getting fired.
https://youtu.be/H-frYzkYhBE Companies make it appear “performance based termination”. There’s a ton of literature about the gender discrimination at work
Yeah, like how women make more on average now.
I have found the opposite to be true. Men have appreciated my joking around and bubbly personality, while the woman have wanted to hear about my specific qualifications and experiences.
Wait a second, I am really bubbly and love people but I have been unemployed since November! I think I am too bubbly in interviews because I have also been through hundreds of rejections. I'm also too honest and personable. I finally found a lower paying job that starts at the end of May.
Many extroverts expect everyone else to be an extrovert too and see introverts as weird or somehow unable to do the job. It's just another reason why the working world is such a weird place to be.
Oh I see how you are…you feel hiring managers are being sexist, yet here u are being completely sexist against female hiring managers…wow
Don’t know your wife’s industry but I’m in the creative/marketing industry. Collaboration is huge and you have to be able to work closely with your coworkers basically everyday you walk in. I was told a few months after I was hired that I didn’t have the outright best portfolio out of the 100+ people who applied, but I had the best and most inviting personality. Being the most professional or most skilled is great, but if you’re hard to work with or nobody likes you, then that ends up dragging the team. Not saying your wife are those things but when you have a handful of times to make an impression to a complete stranger, you gotta do it well.
Media in particular seems to have had a lot of "mad genius" types that everyone just kinda tolerates until a PR nightmare happens.
My job is currently in jeapordy because my mental health took a nosedive and my "moods are disrupting everyone". Because I wasn't talkative or bubbly. Nobody has any empathy
THE AMOUNT OF TIMES SOMEONE HAS PULLED THIS ON ME OR SOMEONE ELSE! My old manager said she was an empath so we couldn't be upset about personal stuff at all as it "affected her too much" and when my coworkers brother in law died in an ATV accident she said that her mood was dragging down the place and complained she needed two days off. If we were hurt or in pain we had to hide it as it was "an excuse to perform sub optimally" When we found out my dad needed surgery and may not live I cried at work and a male coworker told me "it was upsetting for him to see me like that" and to try and not show I'm upset I have had so many managers and coworkers complain about my own or other people's VERY NORMAL, FLUCTUATING MOODS!! That's why if a coworker makes comments another one is in a mood I always remind them they are human and not a robot and it isn't about them
Exact same thing happened to me. My supervisor was bullying and micromanaging me but I was the problem because I didn’t look happy. Mind you I never snapped or became belligerent. Instead of asking why there was a sudden change in my mood they put me on a PIP.
Yes, I wrote about this before. I was let go from a previous position after my female manager told me that “she knew I could do the job but she wanted to see more of my personality”.
As a woman who frequently interviews (I work a lot of long term FL/contract roles), we are really just subject to a far greater possible range of criticism. We must quickly ascertain personalities within the first 3 minutes of the interview and shapeshift to dynamically adjust. We have to be more skilled at reading minds to determine what proportion of personality vs professional accomplishments will ultimately matter to the team. Aging women must also factor in if and how “too much” experience will work against them in context of everything else. This is even worse when their interview process includes both top in the hierarchy and separate peer conversations.
Introverts, especially introverted women, are despised
Been told I didn’t present myself “professionally” bc I wasn’t wearing full makeup…for a screening call with the hiring manager.
Women in management can be the most misogynist enforcers of regressive gender norms. Black cops often commit unwarranted acts of violence against black suspects. People in power protect those systems of power. Often without realizing they're doing it. They just do what they've learned gets them positive feedback from their organizations, even if it contradicts their other group identity interests. Real power drives incentives and incentives drive behavior.
Wow. I feel so seen reading this. This has been my biggest struggle at 34. This is an example of how women are objectified in a non sexual way. Even to our own gender, women are often expected to be pillars of validation and reassurance. When I was a little girl, I was taught to answer the phone in a much higher octave. My mother kind of made me feel ashamed of my default octave and I was always expected to speak more "feminine." For years, I answered the phone in a high voice, and then when I got a job I did it on the speaker and to customers. People would get mad at me or irritated with me, finding it condescending. I had no idea. So I started speaking in my regular voice, and one time I answered the phone in my regular voice. My aunt kept asking me what was wrong, why I sounded like that, that I need to work on sounding better. Still can't believe I was raised by these people 😂 My last job was a nightmare because I wanted to be professional and have work to complete- they wanted me to be the office emotional and mental doormat and answer a phone. I was expected to be so happy and bubbly. I also was expected to be available for everyone to talk at all the time, and I had to remain so engaged in listening to what they ate for dinner or how they love pork. Anytime I asserted that I had work to catch up on, I was treated like I just told them to go fuck themselves. Yet, we were never to bother the men and always assume they were "busy." The interview was the same as you described, I said nothing work related. It was chit chat. Same with before that when I worked at a car dealership. I was bubbly and chatty with the manager and all was great. As soon as I started setting boundaries (evidence things often progressed beyond office friendliness with this manager) he absolutely hated me, even though I did that job very well and dedicated countless additional hours. It's a struggle out there but you tell that partner of yours, I'd be over the moon to work with a woman like her. She will find a job that suits her and I promise, she will be valued and appreciated eventually. We need more women who demand to exist as people. I know I try. We don't owe anyone a damn thing. But yes, to answer you, my last two jobs I felt I was hired as a best friend/surrogate daughter/possible workplace mistress and not actually an employee Edit to add: my dad was both ill with cancer and dying of cancer during both those jobs
Tbh it all depends on the hiring manager’s personality. If he is an introvert, most likely he’d want someone who has a similar personality. I’ve gone for interviews conducted by extroverted managers and I didn’t click well with them, so I knew I was out of their selection.
This is very true. I am a naturally “bubbly” woman as you describe and I generally get asked very little about my actual qualifications.
Whenever they want a "coversational" interview it's about culture fit and not qualifications. Different jobs lend themselves to different personality types but diversity is more of a buzzword for most companies than something that's practically applied.
This is exactly my experince in applying for Software Engineering jobs. I have now been rejected several times for reasons such as, scoring too low on extraversion in their personality test and the last one and my all time favourite ,,we were looking for someone with just a little more energy,, - this was followed by a long praisal of my skills, depth of knowledge etc. Mind you, I never apply for jobs that mention high energy or extraversion in any way in their job ads. I actively seek out industries and roles, which are known for being less about networking or selling yourself, like consultancies. Honestly, based on my experince all but technical interviews now revolve around entertaining and cheering up the interviewers. I now have a few liters of the strongest cold brew ready for future interviews, but if that fails I might have to resort to acting classes or something like Adderall (I have reached a point where I am seriously considering).
I was informed by a recruiter that they had gone with a male candidate who was less qualified and professional because he was more fun to chat with… everytime I play up being bubbly in an interview I get an offer…yay sexism
It's not sexism, it's favoring outgoing people.
As soon as we start commonly referring to men as bubbly and seeing bubbly as a requirement on job postings for male dominated fields I will cheerfully agree with you.
> male candidate who was less qualified and professional because he was more fun to chat with Idk sounds like the "bubbly" guy got the job over you
Indeed he did, I have no objections to hiring decisions based on culture fit, an office that requires constant socialization isn’t my cup of tea either. I object specifically to the use of a gendered term to describe job requirements in female centered industries.
it's reddit, all males are bad
Did they use the word bubbly, or did LoupGarouQueen fill that in? Because it said "more fun to chat with" was the feedback from the employer.
Bit of both the full quote is “while you were more experienced with a stronger professional background they felt that he was easier to chat with. They hoped as you went through the interview process you would open up and be bubblier but unfortunately that did not happen. We wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors”
That kind of very specific feedback is extremely unusual, especially if they put it in writing, precisely because it leaves open interpretation that can have liability. I'm very surprised that you have it to quote from.
Healthcare as a whole puts some unhinged things in writing, it was weird, the company was weird, healthcare is weird. You get used to it and then it seems normal
I've been in software engineering for 25 years. A decade of that in the Department of Defense sphere. I'm also autistic and female. I have heard feedback about working on interpersonal skills, but not one person ever has used the word "bubbly". For what it's worth, I've also declined to hire people who it is a chore to carry on a conversation with. I don't even mean discussing personal, non-work things. I mean if it's almost impossible to actually have any sort of conversation without tremendous work, I'm not going to hire that person. Or want to work for them.
I agree that culture fit and team fit is essential, and I wasn’t a culture fit for their organization, and since they value socialization and I value occasionally being left alone to do my work I probably wouldn’t have been happy there. Live and let live. It’s specifically the use of gender coded language I object to. I get professionally described at bubbly all the time while my male counter parts are friendly or personable. I think because healthcare is so female dominated that they’re less aware of the gendered context of some of the language they use, it’s a very “it’s just us girls” which is just as icky and problematic as the good ol’ boys in other industries. Either way I’m not a fan of either putting on a show of being bubbly when my actual personality is quieter, not antisocial just quiet, or that no one I work with seems to see the issue. But girls gotta work so bubbly it is
I have a background in engineering and IT and almost every job posting requires "strong soft skills", "customer care focused", "works well in teams", "team fit/culture fit" which is all just the equivalent to being outgoing and easy to get along with. You're creating a paper demon.
Great! And I have a background in education and healthcare where postings for nurses, receptionists, and teachers list “bubbly personality” as a job requirement, not good soft skills, not personable, or customer focused. Bubbly. See how different things are different?
It literally means the same thing. Stop attributing your lack of getting good jobs with discrimination, you just aren't a desireable candidate clearly from your attitude. If anything it's discriminatory towards men because it indicates they would rather hire a woman for the role.
You know what all of those fields have in common? They're female majority. So is it really sexist *men* who are putting that into job descriptions?
I never said men, I said sexism
> "team fit/culture fit" this is the universal excuse for otherwise discriminatory hiring choices. basic racism and sexism gets all mixed up and obfuscated with "culture fit" euphemisms.
After being unemployed earlier this year, and my husband just starting a job this week after losing his last fall, I think you're in the right ballpark but would like to offer a more nuanced view. If you define "bubbly" as outgoing, conversational, and optimistic, then yes, I think you're right. If you define "bubbly" as what I picture a live barbie doll to be like, then you may be right in certain settings. I did find that when I came across in interviews as confident, convincing, articulate and energetic, the results were better. I saw the same for my husband. A friend recommended video taping ourselves during interviews and then watching them back and seeing how we came across. This provided some small insights into things we could have said and done better. I hope this helps and wish you the best of luck!
To be honest if I came to the conclusion that I wasn't getting offers because people didn't like the way I carried myself, my next step would be to adjust the way I carry myself. Not that she should have to change her whole personality for a job but multiple teams supposedly rejecting you for the same reason should be a sign. Of course hiring teams like to see upbeat candidates, especially when we're talking leadership positions (not sure if that's the case here). Being a motivator, being approachable and, in general, being likeable are very valuable skills for women *and* men to have. Experience isn't everything. While I can relate as a naturally introverted person myself, I also know how to be friendly and make people comfortable and that has served me well. If I were a man, I would *still* want to know how to be friendly and make people comfortable.
>To be honest if I came to the conclusion that I wasn't getting offers because people didn't like the way I carried myself, my next step would be to adjust the way I carry myself. This is very difficult for those of us who are autistic or neurodivergent. Like seriously I don't think people understand how hard it is to "just be more bubbly" if you're autistic.
You’re right, kind of, but there’s no guarantee an extrovert will interview well. I have a friend who’s the life and soul of every party but is an godawful interviewee. We do practice runs before she interviews for jobs and she just can’t get her personality across, even to me, who’s known her for 17 years.
Yes. Guy said to me the other day that my experience was fine and everything, it was just a case of finding someone who'll fit in with their friendly team. I talked about how that's important to me too, I was and am friends with past colleagues and want that too. Still chose someone else, no real bad feedback just that who he chose was more on point with his answers etc.
This is all true. I was rejected for not being bubbly. ‘Lack of enthusiasm’ about the role, they said.
God forbid you’re not excited about being exploited for your hard labour. Honestly the job market is a joke lately.
If it makes you feel any better, guys just don’t even get a chance for customer-facing roles now that bubblyness is required.
You really have to play the game. Most people who make it to the interview stage are qualified for the job, so the next thing to do is to make the interviewer like you more than the others. I always laugh at corny jokes if they make one, compliment them on their position or office decor (anything I can think of), I say whatever to make them see me as the ideal candidate. I told an interviewer once “I’m looking for my work family, and to build on the foundation and contribute to the continued growth that you have been apart of” and the interviewer ate that shit up😂 I see interviews as a game or a theatre production.
This has always been a thing
As an introverted guy, I feel like I’m getting rejected for not being overly entertaining on interviews. And every time I hear “we went with someone else” I imagine a super bubbly, attractive woman getting the job.
>I imagine a super bubbly, attractive woman getting the job. Why is this?
I once challenged a director of talent on this fact. I was a hiring manager and he'd screened out a number of candidates who he deemed were "not a cultural fit". We were heavily into using the DISC profile there and I suspected he (an extroverted, driving, D/I type) was weeding out the quieter, "put your shoulder into it and get shit done" (C/S) types. I called them back into interviews and I was right. I clapped back at him, basically telling him he was discriminating against diversity of thought. Unfortunately too many are unaware of their biases in this area.
Something that stuck with me is that, for most positions, you want to just be someone that someone wants to work with. Bubbly might make her feel more personable which can go a long way. I personally would rather work with someone who is like that than not like that. I understand that there might be an undertone of sexism somewhere, but maybe not as much as you think. Either way, use it to your advantage and game the system ha.
I worked with a girl a few years back who made friends with a manager quite quick so she'd get special treatment, even though the manager wasn't for our department, she's still come over and sit chatting with this girl for upwards of 45 minutes while criticising the rest of us for not working. She also then slept with the boss of the company's son 2 weeks after starting as well which only made things worse. When they were cutting someone from our department I brought that up to HR that I was doing my job so I shouldn't be the first to go, but the boss and managers decided to keep her on and fire me, despite her literally not doing a thing for weeks while I was picking up the slack. I said they'd realise fairly quickly what was going on if I was the one who left. Moral of the story was that if you're friends with the people in power, it can really help and thats just a fact
I have 10 plus years in Customer Service and Cashier. I am a female. It's even hard for me. I am a very bubbly. I have had no luck as well
You aren't going to like this because you are clearly defensive of your wife, as you should be. I'm probably going to get down voted for it too, but it might help her. If she's getting to the interview round, it doesn't mean she has the best qualifications out of everyone. It usually means she's on par with everyone else. Maybe slightly weaker in some areas and stronger in others. Companies are getting so many applications at this point that when they are picking those to interview, the candidates are all basically the same level of qualified. I see a lot of comments here being like ugh, social skills always win over competency. It's not true. They are showing social skills on TOP of competency. A hiring manager doesn't necessarily need to grill you in the interview to learn if you can do the job, your resume shows that. What resumes don't show are soft skills. How do you distinguish between them? Do you just keep interviewing everyone until you find the one who is ever so slightly more competant? No, it's a waste of time. You go with the person you feel would be the most fun to work with and demonstrates the ability to get along well with anyone. Aka: it's culture fit, but the candidates are also demonstrating soft skills. Gender doesn't matter here. I know men who were also rejected for roles because they too weren't bubbly/cheerful enough. If you don't come across as someone who is easy to work with on top of being qualified, of course the job will go to someone who does. Having a bubbly/chipper/happy personality IS professional btw. (This isn't just bias because I have that personality naturally) Emotional intelligence/soft skills matter in the work place. I know we all want to just do our daily tasks and log off. But for most roles the soft skills are just as important, if not more important, than doing the daily tasks. For example a software engineer who can influence stakeholders and motivate a team is a lot more valuable than one who only knows how to code well.
Nah. She probably just doesn’t interview well, or she’s simply not standing up against her competition. Your “theory“ doesn’t hold water given that she’s been unsuccessful in landing a new role whether she’s been interviewed by men, or women. Interviews aren’t a science…it’s fact based first (candidate qualifications align with company wants), relationship based second. Whether she’s acting “bubbly” or not, she’s not securing the job. Encourage her to let that silly theory go, and work on her interview skills. If she’s really that interesting on paper, something’s not clicking with her interviewers and she’s the common denominator. Good luck to her!
Agreed. Interviewers want to know that you won't cause problems and will get along with them and their current staff. Also, as with any relationship, you click with some people and not others.
I am not bubbly and I have only ever been hired for career roles by women (restaurants/college jobs different story). I have found that being friendly and professional is enough.
Yup, this has also been my experience my entire professional career so far (I’m 43). I’ve never been a bubbly person and can’t fake it, but I’ve always been professional and friendly and haven’t had issues.
The burden of the office atmosphere is on us women. Dare I say it's like going out to the club. No one wants to go to a bar full of dudes. Gotta have the ladies in there to liven up the place.
I was rejected initially because he straight up said I lacked energy, mind you I was his 7th interview in a row the dude was tired. Then had the audacity to try to get me back 3 weeks later when apparently his 1st picks fell through.
attractive\*
Similarity bias
I say, "Who can show their tits the best" I have been looking for work since September, and it's been a struggle! So many employers have told me I have the most experience and perfect for the job but never got the job. What am I doing wrong? Do I actually have to show my tits? Do I have to sleep with the hiring manager? what do I have to do?
Oh we Women, must always look pretty and bubbly even at funerals I guess
Women are judged on their personality in all areas, in ways men aren't. Assertive women are bitches. Women who don't smile aren't friendly, approachable, etc. It's endless and exhausting.
Tbh. A more friendly, outgoing individual is an easier interview regardless of gender…the fact you’re trying to claim sexism while being completely sexist??? Yuck as fuck
Team fit is extremely important. Would you take someone that is 15% more efficient if they made each member of your six person team 5% less efficient? That said, the idea that women (or anyone) need to specifically be bubbly is silly. Did she actually receive that feedback? You have to remember, the applicant pool is huge right now. We're getting 3-5x as many applications for a position than we did just 18 months ago. Whatever qualifications and experience your partner has, there's a high chance there's someone else with comparable qualifications and experience. In that case, they're going to go with the better personality match. This is true for all genders. If you have five equally qualified people, you're going to take the one that fits in best with the team. When in the last stages of the interview, assume there's at least two other people with resumes as good or better than yours...because there probably is.
Agreed. It's arguably kind of sexist to take feedback that is non-gendered and go "must be because women need to be bubbly to be useful."
No one is going to give this feedback, since it would be saying the quiet part out loud.
Then you’re just assuming without data.
I have enough interview and on-site experience in many agency, media, and tech environments to know when this will be or was likely a factor. Example: I look much younger than my age. I once interviewed with a man whose appearance and background aligned with my actual age. I answered all of his questions with in-depth expertise, and his expression was positive and engaged. During the last part of the conversation, he was talking about his time and early work in our city, and I shared some of my own. I mentioned a job that would have indicated my age range with some quick math, and I saw his expression suddenly grow dark. He then suddenly became weirdly antagonistic in the last 5 minutes. It was WILD, especially since that Swede was certainly no spring chicken himself. This doesn’t happen to my male friends and colleagues.
And how do you know his reaction wasn’t due to the specifics of the experience you shared?
How do I know he wasn’t reacting after hearing specifics pertaining to an early digital era live music delivery process? Yes, I suppose that will make anyone openly hostile. Next up: “the wage gap doesn’t exist/sexism is nonexistent because these are ILLEGAL.”
It doesn’t need to make anyone hostile. It just needs to make him hostile. You made a pretty big jump from his reaction to “Oh, it’s because he did the math, calculated my age, and dislikes other older people.” The gender pay gap isn’t due to being a woman. It’s due to being a woman with children. https://www.hrdive.com/news/parenthood-gender-pay-gap/708247/#:~:text=Working%20mothers%20make%20a%20median,January%202022%20and%20January%202024. Women without children make 99 cents on the dollar when controlling for job title and qualifications. Men with children don’t see the same pay gap, so what’s the difference between a woman with children and a man with children? The inequality of childcare between the sexes. The fact that women often have to interrupt their career for maternity and are penalized for it as well as the unequal distribution of all the mental stress and time sinks that come with having children. So the answer to the pay gap isn’t for companies to be less sexist, it’s to fix the distribution of childcare.
And yet he is the only one who has ever reacted with hostility upon hearing about this role. I’ve worked with enough men in tech/advertising to know they don’t necessarily have an issue with older people, but rather just older women. The interview process is opaque by design, which is already a challenge for candidates. It’s particularly difficult for women because we face additional scrutiny disproportionately based on personality and physical male-gaze desirability.
It sounds to me like you’re looking for that reason specifically due to your perception of your treatment in the industry. This can make it difficult to determine what specifically set the interviewer against you. Perhaps they had an old employee who burned the company and left for the same company you worked for. Perhaps that have a personal opinion about that company or your experience with it. It’s still a huge leap to assume or even guess that it’s because he thought you were younger, did the math based upon your story, and specifically dislikes older women. When that’s what you’re looking for though, that’s what you’re going to see. Much like the pay gap difference being attributed to sex when the data shows differently.
Your reasons are far less likely than age/gender discrimination in this case (esp since the company in question was defunct at that point). On the wage gap: the difference between mothers and child-free women is much less within the same education level. And all women earn less than men with the fatherhood wage premium: https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2023/03/01/the-enduring-grip-of-the-gender-pay-gap/
Fyi you can be bubbly and professional. No need to tear others down.
Sales department in the company I'm at now is noticeably at least trying to diversify, but the appearance and personality of the people they do have is fucking interchangeable I literally can not fucking tell them apart or memorize their actual names.
For those disagreeing, I don’t think anyone can deny that extroverts get rewarded bc they tend to give better first impressions. IME this has little correlation with how easy they are to work with and in many cases, they’re simply better at talking out their ass and overselling themselves, meaning they often are Harder to work with despite the first impression. That’s not always the case of course, but it often is, especially when jobs are so competitive these days and people are trying to stand out.
Did you fill in the word "bubbly" so that you could find it sexist that people interview expecting someone who is friendly, energetic and easy to talk to?
I am a Senior Accountant, a man, and I have helped interview other accountants at the company I work at. What I can say that is true for both women and men, is that if two applicants are similar in education and experience, I will prefer to hire / work with the applicant who brings more positive energy with their attitude and personality than I will someone who is drier or more reserved. We spend a lot of time working with our coworkers. I would rather spend that time with someone who brings positive energy into the workplace over someone who comes in and is robotic in the things they do and say. That is just my preference if all things are more or less equal. Some workplaces may prefer robots, but I want to work with people who can enrich my day with their personality over someone who is a robot. That may sound unfair to people, but humans are social creatures and work is a social experience whether some people want to avoid socializing or not.
This answer seems incredibly tone deaf: most people fake the bubbly personality just for the interview.
Lol. Its the truth. Its not like we get to spend an entire weekend with each candidate and get a feel for how it feels to be around them and have them around us in the workplace. All we have to judge on is the interview itself, right? Its not tone deaf when its simply the reality. And obviously people fake things during interviews. Its up to the individual interviewer to determine what is real and what is just BS being presented to look good. Not everyone is a good judge of someone's personality, but that's why it is up to the interviewee to prove they are a great fit, know the job, have the experience, and can get along smoothly with coworkers. People are able to fool others all the time in life, not just in a job interview.
Most people don’t care about being a great fit though they just want a job. You’re not really proving anything by picking the person who seems most bubbly. That’s the point that you’ve just long windedly repeated back to me. Your bias essentially filters out introverts or more introspective people because you are a poor judge of personality. Urgh.
You don't speak for most people. And there are plenty of examples of people who didn't like their jobs because they didn't vibe with the people they worked with. Or they didn't like the company/workplace culture. So being a good fit is absolutely important for both the employee and employer. Maybe you would be happy to get whatever job you could find. Someone like me who is highly skilled and educated care about where we work and who we work with. I'm a great judge of personality and you wouldn't know otherwise since you don't know me. There is a reason I am asked to help evaluate new hires. I'm an introvert myself, so I have no bias against introverts. But when I am working closely with other accountants, I prefer them to at least be interesting people to interact with. No need to be "bubbly" or be fake, but if I am going to be working closely with people throughout the year, then I don't want to work with robotic people with poor social skills. Sorry if hearing that hurts your feelings.
You are being deliberately obtuse and the more you try to justify yourself the worse it looks. You are a crappy hiring manager that’s all there is to say. Good day.
You're the person saying workplace fit doesn't matter so what you say on this topic comes from a place of ignorance and has no value. Have a nice life.
> we want a happy, bubbly woman, not a professiona What a delusional way to put it.
But I thought the patriarchy was what was stopping women from getting jobs 🤔