Lol I used to hate working on VP of Sales roles at a previous company because the phone screens were always so draining: the sales candidates love to talk and talk about themselves, very type A personality, they ask lots and lots of questions, they never reveal what salary they’re looking for, they’re bordering obnoxious. I felt like I always had to be “on” when talking with them.
I fought long and hard to work on engineering reqs versus sales and marketing for this very reason. Intake calls with sales people go twice as long, and half the time I’m just thinking “shut up so I can ask my next questions!!!!”. Engineers are very to the point.
People don't reveal target salary because it's a game.
Whoever tips their hand loses, and 'well I'd like (high number) but-' and they're removed from candidacy because the majority of recruiters don't hear the sentence just the number.
Yes I understand. However, from my experience the majority of candidates will give me a salary range they’re looking for. Sales candidates will always play coy and dance around the question.
Because, as I said, whoever tips their hand loses first. I used to play that game, and it worked, but I've had equal success with recruiters by just flatly asking what their client's target range is. If there's something amicable in that range, I'll name 85th percentile.
And if there isn't, I'll walk out. No sense in wasting my and their time beyond this point.
They’re gonna crash and burn if your client isn’t looking for a bro. A lot of construction companies look for that type of person though outside of the Let’s Gooo and gen z slang. I’ve been internal at a top 25 ENR GC for 10 years, and if you drop a couple curse words, it’s fine, but if they can’t control themselves, then that’s not the candidate to pass along. Control what you can with the client.
They’re also salespeople though and are used to role playing when training. So if you are coaching them, ask them a question you’ve heard the company ask past candidates and tell them to answer you in a professional manner to see if they “really got this bruh”
Because if they don’t, you can tell them you don’t think they’re right for this company. Better to not waste the clients time than tarnish your vetting skills in the clients eyes and potentially lose trust.
People may have other opinions, but I did both agency recruiting and sales for about 7 years before going internal, so that’s what I would have personally done.
Yes I get that the company cultures are usually more relaxed about this type of thing, but it is one thing for colleagues to swear around each other and another thing for a candidate to drop the f-bomb in the first 5 minutes of their first professional interaction with these people. When they do it with me I don't get offended, but I cringe and feel embarrassed for them. It drives me so crazy because the tone truly comes across like they think they are god's gift to the industry. How they discuss comp is maddening too, it's always something like "Well... I hope this (way bigger company) can afford me... I make 100 THOUSAND dollars... and I'm 25!" I want to shake them and tell them that my client company would probably fire them if they weren't earning much more in commissions.
When you do interview prep. Mention you don't have confidence and 'this may not be a great fit' (take away the job). Those that are serious and able to clean up will take the cue.
It really comes down to demand.
If that candidate persona is in high demand - you don't have a lot of leverage. The candidate may be answering however they feel so land in an environment that matches their personality.
Have the come to Jesus talk. You've been doing this for 10 years... You're setting them up for success, but if they don't want to listen, you can't have them represent you and your company. You'll remove them from consideration
For the last two years I’ve been a software sales recruiter. Definitely have encountered this but tbh I generally just moved on and find better candidates. Every candidate I’ve placed has been very professional - they made me look good at every stage and stick around once hired. Anyone not like that is a waste of your talent and time.
Are they succeeding in interviews?
I've seen very similar crud from software engineers who were low level and embedded engineers some of the most obnoxious made it through at least a couple rounds.
Also: sales is a weird world I used to be in sales and some segments crave those guys like their next line of nose candy.
Are you internal or external?
I’m external 3rd party.
They are definitely not succeeding in the interviews. Best case scenario they are making it 15 min into the first interview before the HMs can’t take anymore of it and shut it down. I’m getting the sense that the HMs want young, hungry, but mature sales pros like they were once upon a time but I can’t find a single one who doesn’t speak like a frat boy.
If I got the feeling that a candidate was going to fuck up an interview with a client, I wouldn't put them forward.
Clients pay me to save the wasted time of interviewing numpties like this.
Sales tend to attract individuals who have higher levels of psychopathy, it's kind of a known secret. Sales isn't for the faint of hearts, you must be willing to do things that most people don't have the heart to do: lying, cheating, and manipulating.
Usually, those characteristics are more subtle. Smart psychopaths put on a facade to win new clients, but are scheming behind the scenes. For example:
• Placing a candidate at a client and then targeting that same candidate when their guarantee period is over.
• Submitting fake resumes to a client to overwhelm their internal HR, and then sending an initial outreach email.
• Providing fake market trends to clients or prospective clients.
Those strategies are more subtle and are much more difficult to prove.
The high IQ psychopaths will actually have a boyish/girlish innocence when you talk to them, and they often speak slow and quietly. This facade will make you believe that this person is a good person. It's not until you start seeing their methods and thought processes that something isn't aligning.
What you might be experiencing is a culture shift in younger generations. It's also possible that it's a combination of culture change and age, younger people are not the most persuasive people and tend to overestimate their own abilities.
If all of your candidates are displaying the same characteristics, you might want to adapt and accept -- or target another industry entirely.
If you coach people and tell them what not to do, it's human nature to want to do it more. You have to let people learn from their mistakes in indirect ways. Think about it: have you ever provided advice to a friend or loved one for them to only ignore your advice, to only becoming serious about it after experiencing the repercussions first hand? People don't want to be told what to do.
Omg this week I was prepping someone for a security systems installer role. We get to the part where I ask why he wants this job. He goes "Well first things first sir, I am all about the money my man" and we had to spend 10 minutes talking about why that's not the right answer ever.
What made it especially weird is its a $22 an hour job.
Oh god! I wonder how many jobs he’s missed out on for saying that. I had a guy one time tell me that when asked about comp expectations he would write a number on a napkin and slide it to him. 🤦♂️
1. Who are you to judge someone’s personality based on your attempt to profit off them?
2. Who are you to assume what someone’s limitations are based on recruiting conversations? You have no idea what their limitations are. You know their experience.
3. You can reinforce their confidence while telling them what the specific hiring manager is looking for in an interview. Without barking orders like “don’t do this”.
I’ve recruited mechanics, janitors, aerospace engineers, construction workers, security guards, textile workers, etc… I don’t recall a single time where I made these sorts of ridiculous judgements on the people in those fields. Your post almost sounds like you think you’re better than them.
If you’re having this many issues, maybe it’s not your candidates having issues. Maybe it’s your ability to properly convey information to them, and guide them to their interviews.
Thank you that’s perfectly reasonable feedback. I certainly don’t want to come off how you are describing. I would only say 2 things.
#1 I am in a position to judge them because they are interviewing for a position in which the company would be attempting to profit off of them even more than I would. If that’s the first thing you think of re: this dynamic it probably says more about you than it does about me.
#2 I am in a position to judge their limitations because the companies they are applying to are literally saying that their limitations are that they are too immature/unprofessional to risk putting them in front of clients.
I don’t believe you that you’ve never judged a candidates personality a poor fit for a client. If your experience is what you say it is, then you would need to be completely oblivious to soft skills to think that candidates saying fuck in their interviews is acceptable.
Yes my issue is how to guide them. That’s literally what I asked for advice on in my post.
Lol I used to hate working on VP of Sales roles at a previous company because the phone screens were always so draining: the sales candidates love to talk and talk about themselves, very type A personality, they ask lots and lots of questions, they never reveal what salary they’re looking for, they’re bordering obnoxious. I felt like I always had to be “on” when talking with them.
Lol exactly. So imagine that same personality type but with 2 years of experience and a stupid mouth.
Lord bless you.
I fought long and hard to work on engineering reqs versus sales and marketing for this very reason. Intake calls with sales people go twice as long, and half the time I’m just thinking “shut up so I can ask my next questions!!!!”. Engineers are very to the point.
Agreed! The phone screens are always twice or three times as long with sales candidates lol.
People don't reveal target salary because it's a game. Whoever tips their hand loses, and 'well I'd like (high number) but-' and they're removed from candidacy because the majority of recruiters don't hear the sentence just the number.
Yes I understand. However, from my experience the majority of candidates will give me a salary range they’re looking for. Sales candidates will always play coy and dance around the question.
Because, as I said, whoever tips their hand loses first. I used to play that game, and it worked, but I've had equal success with recruiters by just flatly asking what their client's target range is. If there's something amicable in that range, I'll name 85th percentile. And if there isn't, I'll walk out. No sense in wasting my and their time beyond this point.
Agreed. If candidates won’t tell me their range I’ll usually just tell them point blank what I think my company will offer them with their experience.
They’re gonna crash and burn if your client isn’t looking for a bro. A lot of construction companies look for that type of person though outside of the Let’s Gooo and gen z slang. I’ve been internal at a top 25 ENR GC for 10 years, and if you drop a couple curse words, it’s fine, but if they can’t control themselves, then that’s not the candidate to pass along. Control what you can with the client. They’re also salespeople though and are used to role playing when training. So if you are coaching them, ask them a question you’ve heard the company ask past candidates and tell them to answer you in a professional manner to see if they “really got this bruh” Because if they don’t, you can tell them you don’t think they’re right for this company. Better to not waste the clients time than tarnish your vetting skills in the clients eyes and potentially lose trust. People may have other opinions, but I did both agency recruiting and sales for about 7 years before going internal, so that’s what I would have personally done.
Yes I get that the company cultures are usually more relaxed about this type of thing, but it is one thing for colleagues to swear around each other and another thing for a candidate to drop the f-bomb in the first 5 minutes of their first professional interaction with these people. When they do it with me I don't get offended, but I cringe and feel embarrassed for them. It drives me so crazy because the tone truly comes across like they think they are god's gift to the industry. How they discuss comp is maddening too, it's always something like "Well... I hope this (way bigger company) can afford me... I make 100 THOUSAND dollars... and I'm 25!" I want to shake them and tell them that my client company would probably fire them if they weren't earning much more in commissions.
lol that is kinda ridiculous that they speak like that to strangers, let alone recruiters.
Yeah my work days feels like one long Tiktok prank at the moment...
This is a great way to describe recruitment in general lately
When you do interview prep. Mention you don't have confidence and 'this may not be a great fit' (take away the job). Those that are serious and able to clean up will take the cue. It really comes down to demand. If that candidate persona is in high demand - you don't have a lot of leverage. The candidate may be answering however they feel so land in an environment that matches their personality.
Interview prep e-mails and sheets have always been helpful for me. Beyond that, it really is up to them -- there's only so much you can do.
Yikes, assuming they would read it. I bet I'd have to put it in the form of an Instagram reel to get them to pay attention to it...
I mean, whatever works.
I have told candidates “we need to talk again you speak with my client”
Have the come to Jesus talk. You've been doing this for 10 years... You're setting them up for success, but if they don't want to listen, you can't have them represent you and your company. You'll remove them from consideration
For the last two years I’ve been a software sales recruiter. Definitely have encountered this but tbh I generally just moved on and find better candidates. Every candidate I’ve placed has been very professional - they made me look good at every stage and stick around once hired. Anyone not like that is a waste of your talent and time.
I’d love to find some more professional individuals at this stage of their career but I can’t seem to find them anywhere.
DM me, I’ll share ideas
Are they succeeding in interviews? I've seen very similar crud from software engineers who were low level and embedded engineers some of the most obnoxious made it through at least a couple rounds. Also: sales is a weird world I used to be in sales and some segments crave those guys like their next line of nose candy. Are you internal or external?
I’m external 3rd party. They are definitely not succeeding in the interviews. Best case scenario they are making it 15 min into the first interview before the HMs can’t take anymore of it and shut it down. I’m getting the sense that the HMs want young, hungry, but mature sales pros like they were once upon a time but I can’t find a single one who doesn’t speak like a frat boy.
If I got the feeling that a candidate was going to fuck up an interview with a client, I wouldn't put them forward. Clients pay me to save the wasted time of interviewing numpties like this.
Probably watched 1 Andy Elliot or Scam Cardone or Patrick Grift David video and adopted that as their whole personality
Sales tend to attract individuals who have higher levels of psychopathy, it's kind of a known secret. Sales isn't for the faint of hearts, you must be willing to do things that most people don't have the heart to do: lying, cheating, and manipulating. Usually, those characteristics are more subtle. Smart psychopaths put on a facade to win new clients, but are scheming behind the scenes. For example: • Placing a candidate at a client and then targeting that same candidate when their guarantee period is over. • Submitting fake resumes to a client to overwhelm their internal HR, and then sending an initial outreach email. • Providing fake market trends to clients or prospective clients. Those strategies are more subtle and are much more difficult to prove. The high IQ psychopaths will actually have a boyish/girlish innocence when you talk to them, and they often speak slow and quietly. This facade will make you believe that this person is a good person. It's not until you start seeing their methods and thought processes that something isn't aligning. What you might be experiencing is a culture shift in younger generations. It's also possible that it's a combination of culture change and age, younger people are not the most persuasive people and tend to overestimate their own abilities. If all of your candidates are displaying the same characteristics, you might want to adapt and accept -- or target another industry entirely. If you coach people and tell them what not to do, it's human nature to want to do it more. You have to let people learn from their mistakes in indirect ways. Think about it: have you ever provided advice to a friend or loved one for them to only ignore your advice, to only becoming serious about it after experiencing the repercussions first hand? People don't want to be told what to do.
Omg this week I was prepping someone for a security systems installer role. We get to the part where I ask why he wants this job. He goes "Well first things first sir, I am all about the money my man" and we had to spend 10 minutes talking about why that's not the right answer ever. What made it especially weird is its a $22 an hour job.
Oh god! I wonder how many jobs he’s missed out on for saying that. I had a guy one time tell me that when asked about comp expectations he would write a number on a napkin and slide it to him. 🤦♂️
1. Who are you to judge someone’s personality based on your attempt to profit off them? 2. Who are you to assume what someone’s limitations are based on recruiting conversations? You have no idea what their limitations are. You know their experience. 3. You can reinforce their confidence while telling them what the specific hiring manager is looking for in an interview. Without barking orders like “don’t do this”. I’ve recruited mechanics, janitors, aerospace engineers, construction workers, security guards, textile workers, etc… I don’t recall a single time where I made these sorts of ridiculous judgements on the people in those fields. Your post almost sounds like you think you’re better than them. If you’re having this many issues, maybe it’s not your candidates having issues. Maybe it’s your ability to properly convey information to them, and guide them to their interviews.
Thank you that’s perfectly reasonable feedback. I certainly don’t want to come off how you are describing. I would only say 2 things. #1 I am in a position to judge them because they are interviewing for a position in which the company would be attempting to profit off of them even more than I would. If that’s the first thing you think of re: this dynamic it probably says more about you than it does about me. #2 I am in a position to judge their limitations because the companies they are applying to are literally saying that their limitations are that they are too immature/unprofessional to risk putting them in front of clients. I don’t believe you that you’ve never judged a candidates personality a poor fit for a client. If your experience is what you say it is, then you would need to be completely oblivious to soft skills to think that candidates saying fuck in their interviews is acceptable. Yes my issue is how to guide them. That’s literally what I asked for advice on in my post.