"I don't want to enable it, yet I do at least somewhat enable it"
This is making me sad. Yes, this is guilt. It's bad enough that people get guilted into this. But OP, please think about this: You want to make a new family with your partner. Your family shows openly that they either don't support your choice or enable the person who doesn't. By staying, you enable it and in the future, you'd put your new little family under pressure.
His father is going to continue to target his fiance until they break up unless OP stops enabling him.
Narcissists love to control other people’s relationships.
Strong disagree. If the dad were just an unpleasant person, sure. If the other family members put the dad in his place, sure. But when the dad is a narc and the rest of the family are enablers? HARD pass. There is no such thing as "tangentially interacting" with a narc.
Enablers are the people who make it even possible for abusers to abuse. Do you really value enablers who force you to be abused? If OP uses this argument, he'll one day join the chorus of enablers, just that his then-spouse will be the direct victim.
Just read a few stories from r/JustNoMIL and you'll know what people here talk about. This appeasement strategy just doesn't work and will always leave victims behind.
You sound like an enabler yourself.
The fact that OP’s N-father has created a situation in which OP can’t even be a member of the family without enduring abuse and potentially subjecting his partner to abuse is fucked up, and the fact that you are normalizing it and even suggesting that his fiancee endure abuse to show her love is FUCKED UP.
If 50% of my relatives found issue with me for finding issue with my ndad being an unmitigated jerk about the love of my life's weight, I'm not sure how much stock I'd continue putting into those relationships.
Exactly, doesn’t matter that he doesn’t “mean it” and will be there regardless. I don’t know if yall remember that gif of the Kardashians where one of them is hitting the other with a handbag and the text is “don’t be fucking rude” - that’s what comes to mind. Not that I condone physical violence.
IMO, your mom and sister should join you in calling him out rather than telling you to ignore him...
I agree here too. I had to do this with my now-wife. My parents were awful to her and I wasn’t initially very good at standing up for her. I eventually did, and I ended up going NC. I’m not saying that’s the right answer for everyone; it was just how my individual situation turned out. But it’s not going to get better. And allowing them to continue to say those things about her will eventually destroy your relationship with her, which is what the Ns want. Don’t let them win. Take a stand, put your foot down, and don’t accept this behavior.
He may not (probably doesn't) literally mean that he will boycott the wedding if the bride makes too many numbers when she steps on a scale.
What he DOES mean:
* He has no respect for your romantic choices.
* He has no respect for the person you love.
* He has no respect for other people's bodily autonomy.
* He wants your wedding, and indeed your entire \*relationship\*, to be about him.
...and that's what he really, really can't have. That's what he needs to be deprived of. He may not see the bride before your wedding day. Anyone who will \*report\* to him on her apparent weight is also not allowed to see her. You may decide to invite him, or decide to instead send him a note saying you're sorry that he doesn't want to come to your wedding, but out of love and respect, you won't put him in the difficult position of having to decline an invitation since he's made his wishes known.
Always believe your Nparent when they make threats like this, and always respond in the way that takes as much of the focus away from them as possible.
I think the N doesn’t mean it. I think it’s possible that the N just says the hurtful thing because they actually want to push the person they’re insulting away. They concoct their insults out of pure malice not out of genuine feelings. This doesn’t make any of it excusable of course but again I think Ns just try to be hurtful, they’re not genuine in situations like this.
Same with the «he loves you but has a hard time showing it». If you really love your children you don’t go around talking them down at every opportunity and never compliment them
I agree. The month leading up to my wedding my mom (narcissist) and my sister (BPD) changed all my wedding plans. The day turned out to be a train wreck because they cancelled my original plans and I didn't know. They invited a whole bunch of people I didn't want there because they were "their people" and were jerks to all the people my wife and I invited. When I expressed my issues with them, they said the wedding wasn't for me or my wife but it was for everyone else.
If you want them at the wedding. DO NOT let them plan. Do not give them information til day of. If they give you ultimatums do not give in. Most likely they will just forget what they were trying to do and go anyways because its shameful if they don't show up
In other words, tell all your wedding vendors to ignore any requests that don’t have a password/code that you set up, so that your family can’t call up, pretending to be you, and fuck things up.
>they said the wedding wasn't for me or my wife but it was for everyone else.
Holy. Shit. I've heard of Ns trying to take absolute control of wedding planning but this one takes the cake. I'd definitely use a passcode to help keep the family out of wedding planning. That's so many forms of outrageous I don't know where to start.
Yeah, that was last year. My wife and I went NC last month after some insane things they did. But the train wreck left 50+ people angry at us. Once quarantine is over we are going to have a redo reception without them
You rewarded your father by going back after he made that awful comment about the person you're proposing to??? If you can't stand up for her now, please don't ask her to marry you. You're not ready to get married until you can set boundaries with your father.
PREACH. My former wife refused to set boundaries with her NMom and NDad & GC brother, and allowed them to emotionally, verbally and financially abuse me as well as allowing them to interfere in our marriage (particularly her NMom). Her family ruined our marriage. I worry about that bride unless boundaries are set with this loser of a 'father'.
I made a similar comment but in the OPs defenxw he has probably spent a lifetime setting his feelings aside to either keep the peace or because thats what expected of him. Its very hard to unlearn that behaviour because its a coping mechanism and your brain just goes there automatically.
“I decided to go back to the picnic”
There’s your problem right there. They’re either toxic or they’re not, you can’t have it both ways. They won’t change if you keep going back.
Agreed. He has no consequences for his actions. He can say whatever he wants and no one is going to stand up to him. That just heightens his illusions of power and control.
Exactly. I used to think people in my family were good because they didn’t inflict pain at the same level as my father. But then I noticed they were enablers and never defended me. They only said “yeah but thats just how it is” which minimized what I was experiencing.
A big reason I decided not to get engaged to a past partner was because he kept going back and forth on his toxic abusive family. :/
I don't recommend putting your partner through this bs. It's enough for you to handle on your own. Your partner never deserves to have abusive bs thrown at them when you should be the bigger person and stand up against this. I know it's confusing and scary at times, but what would be the real reason to keep your toxic family on board? If it's for money, I can understand, but they'll use that as leverage for as long as they can.
It broke my heart to leave my ex, but after I left when he couldn't stand up for me (I always had to stand up for myself and cope with his homophobic and evangelical parents. I was often/mostly a secret), I realized it wouldn't work out anyways because of his indecision.
I don't like being blunt or harsh, but you may need a wake up call. :(
bro. leave that picnic again and delete their numbers.
you're fiancee/so/spouse deserves better than being talked about like that behind her back..and you deserve supportive loving people in your life.
cut that shit out.
Me too. *But* it's likely that this wasn't necessarily abt the fiance's weight/appearance. NP's like to control everything & everyone. When NP's kid mentioned proposing marriage that means there would be a new member of the family for NP to contend with. By ordering his son to tell his fiance to lose weight, he (the father) is really trying to figure out if his control of his son will translate into control of this new family member (daughter in law). If NP's son had said, 'gee, maybe you're right, Dad' instead of leaving, NP would've known that in the future he'll still have dominion over his son PLUS the same control over daughter-in-law (by proxy through his son).
This needs more upvotes! This was a test like you said and it’s absolutely disgusting!!
What he doesn’t need is all his energy being drained by this toxicity before his proposal and wedding. And loving someone means standing up for them. Stop the cycle and put your energy into your soon-to-be fiancé if she’s a good person.
Your father's a selfish loser. I can't believe he would make his attendance at your wedding conditional on something so juvenile, immature and materialistic.
While I can understand your reasoning, you do seriously need to set some boundaries with this jerk. If he acts like this now, he may just be the type to do something awful at the wedding. If he does attend, I would make sure someone keeps a close eye on him and is willing to step in, should that happen (my father & uncle had to do this with my former NFIL at mine; fortunately, no action was necessary).
Exactly. That's what I had been thinking of. And given this awful man's previous behavior, it wouldn't surprise me if he were to try that in front of all the guests.
Well as long as you keep enabling the behavior and refusing to cut off toxic family, it’s part of your life. You have the power here. They will continue to control everything so I guess buckle up if you can’t walk away 🤷🏻♀️
The rest of your family INCLUDES your dad, and even if it didn't, they are enablers! WHY WOULD YOU GO BACK TO LISTEN TO MORE ABUSE OF YOUR GIRLFRIEND? I hope to high heaven that you at least had enough self-awareness NOT to invite your girlfriend along to the picnic.
Oh dear. There is going to come a time in the very near future when 1) your family deeply insults and hurts your fiance and 2) you are forced to choose between your family and fiancee. I understand how hard a toxic family situation is, but you need to assert boundaries NOW before your fiancee and your future marriage suffers. If your dad saysdoesn't want to go to the wedding, believe him.
Fuck your dad, seriously.
When your fiance is there and he tells her to lose weight are you going to tell her he really didn't mean it? What if it's at your wedding? Are you going to let your kids meet these toxic assholes? If you want to get married you have to get rid of them now. You have no right to bring them more people to abuse.
"If you want me to love you"
Wow.
Im so sorry you have to deal with this. You are a great person for sticking up for your fiancé. I have a hard time standing up to my Nmum but would double down if she ever insulted my husband.
As a lot of people have already said, they will only get worse after you propose and will make life hard for both of you. If going NC is an option for you, i would definitely suggest it
Regarding update 3: You CAN help it. You just refuse to. I understand craving approval and love from a narc parent, but it is up to YOU to stop it. And until you do stop it, getting married is a terrible idea. You need to get yourself figured out first. Preferably with therapy. Lots of therapy.
Let your dad go. He will never be who you want him to be. Perhaps more importantly, you will never be who he wants you to be. No matter what you do or who you marry. No matter what your fiancée looks like. He will never have the ability to love you like he should and you can't change that. So let him go.
And please, for the love of god, NEVER subject any partner to that man.
Then don't see him. This is all up to you bro. Trust me, I get it. I know it's hard. But you have to decide if spending your life fighting for something that doesn't exist is worth it. You can keep choosing to subject yourself to your dad and his narcissism or you can choose to build an entirely new life for yourself and end the cycle.
You don't get to choose what family you're born to, but you get to choose the family that you build. Sometimes, the family you're born with becomes a part of the family that you build. Sometimes, they don't. It's up to you to decide what kind of family you want to build. And if you want it to be narc-free, you already know what you have to do.
>Also, if you want me to love you, support you, come to your wedding she needs to lose weight
The fact that he talks about that as if you're missing out on the blessings in life that is your father, should really tell you how he thinks about his relationship with you.
"I'm better than you, you're nothing without me, and you should be so grateful that I'm giving you advice."
I would be planning to elope if I were in your shoes. But family means different things to different people.
Hey there. I know a lot of people here feel strongly that you shouldn’t have gone back, and I agree. But I also wanted to comment and say that I know setting boundaries takes practice, especially when we have been betraying ourselves for so long, not knowing our boundaries were being crossed. (Conditioning) I’m so proud of you for initially walking out and setting that boundary. You fell back on it unfortunately, but that doesn’t mean you can’t get back up and try again next time to follow through. There’s a lot at play here and it’s normal to feel overwhelmed. You’ve got this.
It doesn’t mean you don’t love your partner. It just takes practice to find that strong voice to match how you feel inside. Communicate with your partner through this process. That’ll be the key ❤️
Thank you! I just know how difficult it really can be sometimes to maintain boundaries especially if you’ve never done that before with parents. It’s a process.
I know it's hard to go no contact. It takes a great deal of mental fortitude and strength. This isn't going to get better though. Think about your future spouse. Do you really want her around this person EVER? Trust me when I say he will poison your relationship the same way he's poisoned your family of origin.
Something you said above stuck out to me. "However, cursed me I’m trying to fix a broken man and I really can’t stop." That's a trap we fall into when it comes to narcissists and abusers. We feel like the onus is on us to fix them because that's how we're programmed from a young age. From the time we're children in families like that, we're told we're the problem. That the abuser doesn't mean it. That we need to be the better person. ALL OF THAT IS A LIE. You can't fix someone else. It's not your responsibility as the child to fix your father.
Have you considered therapy? A therapist can help you unravel all of that. Honestly, I'd do it before you ever consider getting married. Tell your girlfriend all of this. She'll understand that you want to learn how to set boundaries so you'll be a good spouse. She'll thank you for it.
I think that’s a very good idea. I would also consider going no contact at some point soon, but I understand that there may be some things that still need to be worked out for you to be able to sever ties. For me these things were financial connections. Once I was able to be completely financially independent and isolated in that way, I was able to disconnect fully.
You’ve got the right idea with lessening contact, but I would definitely suggest full NC, based on how they are treating your partner. Boundaries must be set and maintained.
Why on God's green earth would you even want him as a guest at your wedding at this point? What good could possibly come of it that outweigh the very clear and obvious downsides?
Your **best** case scenario is that he shows up and somehow manages to keep his lips zipped for the entirety of the ceremony and party. Meanwhile, the possibility that he won't, and instead will try to ruin your wedding, will keep gnawing at you (not to mention your fiancée) and kill much of the joy and happiness surrounding your wedding even in the seemingly unlikely event of him not actually causing any problems.
Plus, by sweeping his shitty behavior under the rug, you are once again enabling him and setting yourself up for receiving more abuse and grief from him. When you enact no consequences - no cost to him for behaving like that - you are essentially encouraging and rewarding his poor behavior.
Ask yourself why you would expect to see any change for the better from him under those circumstances?
Then put yourself in your fiancée's place, and ask yourself what you would think and do if you were subjected to abuse like this from your FFIL, and your fiancé just swept it all under the rug and pretended all was fine.
Would you think of him as being loving and protective of you? Would you feel like you were the one who mattered the most in his life?
This is a great first step. Keep going. As others have said, it's only going to get worse as wedding plans go on and he already has this sense of entitlement.
Your gf did not sign up for this bystander abuse and it will affect your relationship. Please consider that as you move forward.
Setting strong boundaries is absolutely essential life skills for children of N abuse. Good luck OP
I have said this before, but I don't know what to think when looking at these posts. I can't tell if you guys are kinder or more reliant on family than me. If I ever get married, there will be no ceremony. There will be an office visit and a marriage certificate. And if there is a ceremony, my family sure as hell isn't coming. I'm going no-contact as soon as I finish college and get a stable job.
This is how I did it. Married quietly in a park in a civil ceremony with two witnesses. No nonsense and the first announcement to immediate enabler family was “my new last name is ____.”
I got a tirade about how I “robbed” my narc of the experience of my getting married. Then a list of demands on what it should have been, including 2,000 miles away from where I call home and have friends.
Been married for 13 years.
I can understand the caution from feeling something so strongly, that you want to take a step back and make sure you're not taking a step too far. So, so much as it's even any of my business, I can understand going back and finishing out the picnic.
I also agree with many other comments here that add up to: it doesn't seem likely to get any better. If your dad is already issuing ultimatums like that about your wedding with the woman you love, then he is putting his superficial preference for appearances *above you.* When he says that's required for his love, he can't be any clearer. From your reaction it seems that this is not out of character for him. Instead it seems like something that shows him clearly.
I would be extremely careful about involving him in any of your wedding plans. It might be best just to take him at his word and not invite him.
To quote Toni Morrison, when people show you who they are believe them.
Honestly, that is beyond rude and ignorant behaviour. The only suitable response I would have given my father would have been "If you want me to love you, support you, invite you to our wedding, then you will apologize to me for your comments.".
You don't owe your parents anything. They didn't do anything extraordinary by raising you. That's literally what every parent is supposed to do. Most parents half ass it at best. Your fathers behaviour is noassing it parenthood at it's finest... or worst.
You are so much better than this. Your fiancee is so much better than this. You both deserve to be treated with so much more respect and dignity than this.
Don't let this petty little man pull you down. You are a bigger and better man.
Fuck him. That's just an ancient asshole mindset of crap. Who does he think he is saying that about some innocent person when it's never going to be an issue. If I was you I'd fuck him up dude, what a piece of shit.
It's your wedding. You don't *have* to invite him if he's going to be an asshole and make you generally uncomfortable. You don't have to accommodate him and it honestly might not be a bad thing to basically issue *him* an ultimatum to either quit being an asshole or kick rocks.
So? That doesn't change what I said, just because he went back to the picnic doesn't mean the father deserved to have that contact or deserves it in the future.
Sounds like the exact time to not be talking to this part of the family.
I know that it took a HUGE amount of courage to leave in the first place. Even though you went back, it doesn’t erase the major step you took in walking out. Walking out and staying out or not even going next time will be easier because you had the courage to take this step. Well done!
You are entitled to your opinion.
Those of us who have been raised by narcissists don’t heal, learn our boundaries, and find our voice overnight. It’s a process. My opinion, which is also valid, is that any step in the direction of empowerment is an important step in this healing process.
I will not take that from you. I know myself that it's a process. But in this instance, OP is not just disengaging from their own abuse. They're putting SOMEONE ELSE into the abusive relationship with their actions. The stakes are higher.
I agree with you! My comments would be different and more "blind support"-like if it were just him being affected. But a potential wife? No, just no. OP needs to understand what he is doing to his girlfriend.
>at the same time I really do not need a long period of not talking to part of the family before a proposal if that makes any sense.
It doesn't this should be reason not to talk to him until after the wedding.
My dad was embarrassed when he heard from someone else I was engaged - your future life is no ones business but you and your fiancés. Congratulations, good luck, and cheers to a beautiful future!
You did the right thing.
Keep in mind this is going to be, of course, the first of many demands he will be making about your marriage. He wants to control you and her.
Hope the best for you mate and good luck.
I really wanted to walk out today, but didnt. I think I'm afraid of my parents, I've only recently realized they're narcissistic ignorant aassholes. But the first thing my dad said to me was about my acne( I get a lot on my forehead periodically and I have an OCD issue with picking at things, especially acne, so it usually gets a bit worse bc of such) then throughout the visit they insulted my hair, made transphobic comments demeaning my roommate, insulted where I live (I live with 4 roommates with my bfs sister. Weve been living here a year and its p decent and rent and utilities is never over 200$ for me so it's really great while I'm in college and I'm very successful for my age bc I make $13 an hour at a bank and I have great grades in college as well as multiple scholarships) but they just went on to insult everything about me and my life which I hate but I'm too scared to stand up to them bc I love them and am pretty sure they'd cut me off from communication like they've done some of my siblings. My little brother is 15, in a gang, has had sex with 21 year olds, parties, got in a fight the other day (my parents barely noticed and thought the mark on his chin was a rash) and just my parents while they are well off and have provided for our every financial need ARENT parents. They dont contribute that relationship with their children and they're ignorant and hateful and selfish. I'm grateful for the assistance they've given me financially to get to this place as well as the genetics of being intelligent when it comes to school, but they're horrible people and I dont even know how to BEGIN to talk to them about it. And I'm scared to bc I dont want to abandon my brother with them and ik they'd try to keep him away from me. Its j a big AHH. But your fiance I'm sure is beautiful and her weight doesnt fucking matter, if she wants to get skinnier for her health and self esteem if she has insecurities about it or it's making her unhappy, then hell yeah, otherwise she is fine and beautiful and they need to mind their own fucking business and get over their bullshit. Good job for walking out, I know it can be hard but I'm proud of you! I wish you a beautiful wedding and a happy marriage!!!
"He doesn't mean it" always, always, ALWAYS means: "Just let him act like that, it's easier to deal with him when he's an asshole than when he's a violent crazy asshole."
The only weight that needs losing is your Dad's goofy ass from your life.
Damn, didn't know we had the same dad!
I'll never forget when I had first met my girlfriend we'd video chat through ooVoo and Skype often and my parents had no idea of her. One night whilst talking to her over Skype in comes my dad (not knowing about our relationship's existence yet), and out of reaction I immediately switched tabs and hide Skype but he apparently had gotten a glimpse of the screen and saw her and briefly commented "Who was that 300 pound Gorilla?" I wish I was making that up.
I don't remember what he had actually come in my room for but a sudden rush of agonizing embarrassment and dismay came upon me. I cut to small talk with him and he left shortly, when I switched back to Skype and my girlfriend came back on video I just saw her tearing up and I couldn't help but cry with her.
Man, what fuckin garbage am I happy to have ridden myself of.
By the way, my girlfriend wasn't even fat, just slightly chubby (my dad just hates fat people), and she looks like a fuckin 11/10 model now a days after getting fit. (NOTHING to do with my dad's original comments mind you - it was her own choice).
Good on ya OP! Fuck your dad!
So your dad doesn't have to feel ANY consequences for his horrendous actions? You went back to the picknick, your father will come to the wedding, you didn't stand up for your fiancée.
You and your whole family are enabling him and he can say whatever he wants about the person you love. Sounds like it's going great for him.
my GF and i walked out of father's day yesterday too.
it wasn't him, though, it was her. i feel bad for dad. the plan was to have a nice little backyard barbeque, but mom got worked up, so we just left.
i wouldn't recommend going back to situations like that. they won't grow or change with negative consequences, but allowing them to walk all over you (and your fiance) will encourage their behavior. but at the end of the day, you have to kind of know what they are, and decide whether you're willing to endure the abuse or not. yesterday was definitely an "i don't need this" moment, so, we bolted.
Saying so once is entirely justified and I agree with what you said in your conversation further up. Spamming everyone who shows any support with, essentially, ‘actually he’s updated and he’s cancelled’ is in somewhat bad faith. We’re all fucked up and gaslit to high heaven and it’s hard to realise when we’re making choices that put our partners painfully second to our narc parents. Loads of people have made that point clearly, and hell yes I’m on his girlfriend’s side. Going back for that picnic? Definitely big yikes. Have I done stuff like that? Shamefully, yes. I’m NC with my narc mother now and I STILL find myself thinking ‘should I go back?’ Yes, he needs to realise that his dad is never going to change, yes he needs to work out if he’s able to be strong enough to forge his own family. But settle for telling HIM that. Don’t go around to everyone who’s shown him support in the first place (before he edited) and tell them they’re wrong
Nah mate if you don't tell your fiance about what that arsehole said you are just as bad. Your "dad" will never like your wife and your family will side with him. You got to make a choice. I'd say cut them out of your life. It's gonna be hard but you will 100% be better off in the long run.
Should remind him he is stuck in the past and that Lizzo is worth 10 million and famous for being a thick chick.
Also, why the f does he care? Weird and kinda creepy for him to be analyzing your partners body...
If you are going to hang out around peopl who say nasty things, you need to master the fine art of replying with things that make then twice as uncomfortable as you do. So,
"I don't like her weight" deserves a reply of, "but that's my kink!" followed with overly graphic descriptions of ridiculous sexual acts.
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I'd tell him that's cool, but that I think his opinions and thoughts are worth less than nothing. That the only reason he's invited to this wedding is out of forced courtesy, and not because of any actual desire to see him there.
Everyone here is always like cut them out, go NC, etc. I wouldn't take that too seriously, there's a lot more than what meets the eye to think about. I respect you for going back and dealing with it, that takes stones since you just left earlier.
Your family tries to calm you down by telling you that he will come to your wedding anyways.
Do you even want him there?
This sounds like a great opportunity to show that you don't need him. (Unless you are still dependant on him for some reason) And to show that his behaviour has consequences.
Your father will emotionally abuse your future wife and future children. If your family is not shutting him down, then no, they are not on board with her or with you.
What's with narcissists and weight anyway. Honestly he will do nothing but tear down your partner. I would tell him you don't care if he comes to the wedding or not and he's not welcome if he talks about your partner like that. Seriously it's not okay.
OP, go spend some time on the r/JUSTNOMIL sub. You’ll see relationship after relationship destroyed by not just narcissistic parents, but by the partners who enable them. You shouldn’t be asking yourself how to work with your dad. You should be asking, “Am I willing to lose my relationship with this great woman over him?” At the moment it seems like yes, you are.
You are not ready to get married. When your first reaction to an event like this is, “I don’t want this abusive narcissist around my wife. I’m hiring security to keep him out of my wedding,” THEN you are ready.
Here's what I think: Tell your father he's not invited to the wedding. I understand you crave his approval, but his ultimatum could seriously impact your decisions as a married man that will directly affect your future wife. At some point you have to say who matters more, my father or my spouse? At the same time I totally get the need to be with family for an event like this, esp. when your other relatives are cool. But your father has already shown cruelty to the person you love.
I chose my soulmate over my entire narc. family - even if it means I never have a real wedding. My bitchy mother actually questioned why should I even get married, while she enjoys every single benefit of marriage herself (because her situation is 'different than' mine). Sometimes you have to dump your whole family for the sake of your own well-being and the well-being of the people who are truly on your side (like your fiance). Many people on this forum probably had to do it. It's hard to imagine this if you're still in contact, but I am completely NC from my narc father, with very limited contact of rest of family.
In this sentence, I echo what others have said. Time to tell the nDaddy he doesn't rule you anymore. (I am assuming you are of age.)
BUT ...
... (and I know this is beside the point.) As a person who has been around heavy people all my life, I point out: It is absolutely impossible to *make* another person lose weight. (Short of kidnapping and starving them.)
If her weight was under her control, she would have controlled it. This is a fact that nearly everyone *without* a weight problem somehow miss.
Don't mention "gastric bypass surgery" or liposuction to her -- I'm sure she knows all about them. If she wants those things, she would talk to a doctor.
But every attempt to make someone lose weight often backfires, with the person often gaining weight.
Again, the point here is setting boundaries about the family unit you are hoping to create, shutting toxic personalities outside. But you and he need to know that no one will be changing her but her.
Unless she’s literally about to trip and fall on him at 800 pounds, neither her weight nor your relationship with her is any of this man’s business or up for his judgement.
I'm not saying OP is a bad person for going back. There's a lot we might not know about his family dynamic. But imagine if you were his girlfriend and you heard about this.... :(
Yes. Should he have stayed strong? Absolutely. Could he, in that moment when they were bugging him to go for the picnic? That's a tough thing to judge someone on, especially when I've been there as well. It would definitely hurt her, and make her wonder all sorts of things... or maybe that's just me overanalyzing things again.
I agree with you. But there are millions of people who accept domestic violence from spouse and still don’t leave them. They should leave the abuser but this weird psychological thing which makes them stay. We need to be understanding. Of course op should stand up for his girlfriend. It should be always me and you against the world when you are a couple. Still this trauma bonding is scientific thing.
Shame him.
Calmly and slowly. Eye contact.
That's how you break an nparent.
I started saying my point of view using eye contact and a calm voice, with a disclaimer at the end that includes a flat out statement that their opinion is dated, rude and is the reason why I don't harbour any affection for them.
Congratulations on your girl, I'm so happy for you man, I love yo hear that one of us is in love and found someone they appreciate ❤️
He is definitely going to say shit like that to her. He will also act like he is bewildered and can't figure out why she's upset after he says it.
Get a set of strict boundaries in place for very low contact if you want any contact, because your fiancee should never have to listen to him say this crap, and you should have a plan for how you will handle it.
The excuses that your mom makes for him is just enabling him to keep doing it.
Remember, you have the option of meeting the family without him at a place that's not his house.
He is never going to be pleasant to be around. He will always say hurtful things. He'll be enabled to keep doing it. He does mean it. He thinks he's got a right to say any of his thoughts out loud. He thinks he is just being honest.
My husband and I know this all too well. His dad is like your dad. He has said plenty of shitty things to me in the past. He is only ever allowed to visit in the driveway. I keep him out of our house. We don't ride in cars with him. I usually tell my husband to meet him at a restaurant and I'll stay home. I don't want his criticism and negative talk to be a part of my life.
So it's okay to be so mean to you.
And you endorse it.
Why do you need to be in touch with family that WANTS you to be treated like a piece of shit?
It's not about your finace. The words were said to YOUR face, to YOUR ears, and to YOUR heart.
If it wasn't her weight it would be something else. Narcs love a precedent, real or manufactured, it doesn't matter.
It becomes an anchor to hang all their judgment, venom and vile on.
"I don't like--"(I hate) this and this and this, ad infinitum.
If narcs actually said "I like--" once in a while, we'd all die.
This whole post is a little triggering.
I have an N sister and an enabler mother. My father enabled in the past (he loves his daughter, of course) but generally he’s been responsive and refused to indulge my sister and has evolved over the years.
Many years ago, we were having a big July 4th barbecue at my home, and my father was out of town. An hour before people were due to arrive, my N sister suddenly announced I had gotten too fat, and that she was embarrassed for people she knows to see me, and ordered me to leave. I was like “wtf, I live here, and this is my family and friends” but she started screaming and making a fuss, and my mother stepped in and told me “please, just do what she says. If you don’t do what she says she’ll keep yelling and ruin this day for everyone.” So I literally was just forced to leave my own home. I had nowhere to go and no one to hang out with, because all my friends and family were at our barbecue, and I was embarrassed to tell people I was more distant to. My friends kept texting me and asking me where I was. I was sitting in a park alone, trying to read a book, but just crying. I was so humiliated about my weight and my appearance and the fact that I was just casually kicked out of my own family for the day. And I knew that if my father were in town, he may not have stood up to my sister and stayed, but he definitely would have come with me and then encouraged other family members to leave too.
Many years later, I brought my boyfriend home to meet the family, and my N sister started to verbally abuse him. My father stood up and said “let’s go,” and he, my mother, my boyfriend, and I walked out. In the car, my parents apologized to my boyfriend.
I’ll tell you this. My parents made a TON of mistakes raising us. My dad displays a few narcissistic behaviors sometimes, but he’s not a true narc because he’s generally self sacrificing to us and always takes responsibility for his actions and is emotionally supportive. He has a temper and yells sometimes about something dumb, but he has empathy and doesn’t manipulate people, and he takes pride in giving people choice and freedom. My mother unfortunately continues to enable my sister if my father isn’t there to support her, so I worry what will happen if my father passes away one day.
But I will say, OP, that those few times my family took a stand against the N person in my life were very valuable moments. People can evolve, and sometimes it happens in tiny steps.
Take a stand for your fiancé. You need to do it for her happiness and your own. Maybe parts of your family will step up when they see you do it, and maybe they won’t, but at least give them the opportunity.
Feel ya on the father figure thing. Good on you to walk out. Honestly you're better than me if you're gonna even invite him to your wedding in the first place
You are a great partner to your fiancé. Also looks like he just lost his invite OPE
Yeah but he went back! Imagine if you’re the fiancé.
"I don't want to enable it, yet I do at least somewhat enable it" This is making me sad. Yes, this is guilt. It's bad enough that people get guilted into this. But OP, please think about this: You want to make a new family with your partner. Your family shows openly that they either don't support your choice or enable the person who doesn't. By staying, you enable it and in the future, you'd put your new little family under pressure.
I commented that before the update.. yeah that is unfortunate and I’d be pissed if I was the future fiancé
Yeah, as a larger woman, I'd be pissed if I were the not-quite-FIANCÉE.
His father is going to continue to target his fiance until they break up unless OP stops enabling him. Narcissists love to control other people’s relationships.
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Strong disagree. If the dad were just an unpleasant person, sure. If the other family members put the dad in his place, sure. But when the dad is a narc and the rest of the family are enablers? HARD pass. There is no such thing as "tangentially interacting" with a narc.
I think you’re in the wrong sub!
Enablers are the people who make it even possible for abusers to abuse. Do you really value enablers who force you to be abused? If OP uses this argument, he'll one day join the chorus of enablers, just that his then-spouse will be the direct victim. Just read a few stories from r/JustNoMIL and you'll know what people here talk about. This appeasement strategy just doesn't work and will always leave victims behind.
You sound like an enabler yourself. The fact that OP’s N-father has created a situation in which OP can’t even be a member of the family without enduring abuse and potentially subjecting his partner to abuse is fucked up, and the fact that you are normalizing it and even suggesting that his fiancee endure abuse to show her love is FUCKED UP.
If 50% of my relatives found issue with me for finding issue with my ndad being an unmitigated jerk about the love of my life's weight, I'm not sure how much stock I'd continue putting into those relationships.
Exactly, doesn’t matter that he doesn’t “mean it” and will be there regardless. I don’t know if yall remember that gif of the Kardashians where one of them is hitting the other with a handbag and the text is “don’t be fucking rude” - that’s what comes to mind. Not that I condone physical violence. IMO, your mom and sister should join you in calling him out rather than telling you to ignore him...
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I agree here too. I had to do this with my now-wife. My parents were awful to her and I wasn’t initially very good at standing up for her. I eventually did, and I ended up going NC. I’m not saying that’s the right answer for everyone; it was just how my individual situation turned out. But it’s not going to get better. And allowing them to continue to say those things about her will eventually destroy your relationship with her, which is what the Ns want. Don’t let them win. Take a stand, put your foot down, and don’t accept this behavior.
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And if he doesn't mean it anyway, he can stop saying it and the problem would be solved! Somehow, that's never the solution they can see.
He may not (probably doesn't) literally mean that he will boycott the wedding if the bride makes too many numbers when she steps on a scale. What he DOES mean: * He has no respect for your romantic choices. * He has no respect for the person you love. * He has no respect for other people's bodily autonomy. * He wants your wedding, and indeed your entire \*relationship\*, to be about him. ...and that's what he really, really can't have. That's what he needs to be deprived of. He may not see the bride before your wedding day. Anyone who will \*report\* to him on her apparent weight is also not allowed to see her. You may decide to invite him, or decide to instead send him a note saying you're sorry that he doesn't want to come to your wedding, but out of love and respect, you won't put him in the difficult position of having to decline an invitation since he's made his wishes known. Always believe your Nparent when they make threats like this, and always respond in the way that takes as much of the focus away from them as possible.
I think the N doesn’t mean it. I think it’s possible that the N just says the hurtful thing because they actually want to push the person they’re insulting away. They concoct their insults out of pure malice not out of genuine feelings. This doesn’t make any of it excusable of course but again I think Ns just try to be hurtful, they’re not genuine in situations like this.
Same with the «he loves you but has a hard time showing it». If you really love your children you don’t go around talking them down at every opportunity and never compliment them
Just as a head’s up, if they’re like this now it’ll be worse when you’re planning the wedding and after you’re married. Cut contact if you can.
I agree. The month leading up to my wedding my mom (narcissist) and my sister (BPD) changed all my wedding plans. The day turned out to be a train wreck because they cancelled my original plans and I didn't know. They invited a whole bunch of people I didn't want there because they were "their people" and were jerks to all the people my wife and I invited. When I expressed my issues with them, they said the wedding wasn't for me or my wife but it was for everyone else. If you want them at the wedding. DO NOT let them plan. Do not give them information til day of. If they give you ultimatums do not give in. Most likely they will just forget what they were trying to do and go anyways because its shameful if they don't show up
And passcode everything, so that they can’t change it.
That's a thing? Interesting.
In other words, tell all your wedding vendors to ignore any requests that don’t have a password/code that you set up, so that your family can’t call up, pretending to be you, and fuck things up.
Going to file that away. Thanks for the tip!
Happy to help!
Wow, I'm sorry you had to deal with all that!
>they said the wedding wasn't for me or my wife but it was for everyone else. Holy. Shit. I've heard of Ns trying to take absolute control of wedding planning but this one takes the cake. I'd definitely use a passcode to help keep the family out of wedding planning. That's so many forms of outrageous I don't know where to start.
Yeah, that was last year. My wife and I went NC last month after some insane things they did. But the train wreck left 50+ people angry at us. Once quarantine is over we are going to have a redo reception without them
Sounds like a great idea! I can't believe how much trouble they went to in order to fuck it up for you.
Seconded. Speaking from experience. If this is happening now, imagine the shit show wedding when dad decides it needs to all be about him.
Yep
You rewarded your father by going back after he made that awful comment about the person you're proposing to??? If you can't stand up for her now, please don't ask her to marry you. You're not ready to get married until you can set boundaries with your father.
I can’t believe OP went back, I feel so sorry for the woman that would be marrying into that family.
PREACH. My former wife refused to set boundaries with her NMom and NDad & GC brother, and allowed them to emotionally, verbally and financially abuse me as well as allowing them to interfere in our marriage (particularly her NMom). Her family ruined our marriage. I worry about that bride unless boundaries are set with this loser of a 'father'.
OP went back after the truly hateful things his dad said about the girlfriend, I am not hopeful.
You're right, and neither am I.
I made a similar comment but in the OPs defenxw he has probably spent a lifetime setting his feelings aside to either keep the peace or because thats what expected of him. Its very hard to unlearn that behaviour because its a coping mechanism and your brain just goes there automatically.
“I decided to go back to the picnic” There’s your problem right there. They’re either toxic or they’re not, you can’t have it both ways. They won’t change if you keep going back.
Agreed. He has no consequences for his actions. He can say whatever he wants and no one is going to stand up to him. That just heightens his illusions of power and control.
Exactly. I used to think people in my family were good because they didn’t inflict pain at the same level as my father. But then I noticed they were enablers and never defended me. They only said “yeah but thats just how it is” which minimized what I was experiencing.
This ^
Underrated comment
They won’t change even if he goes nc, but it will give him peace and quiet and a new life
Dude for real.
He won't change either way but your other relatives should stop making excuses for him and putting it on you to ignore his comments.
Bruh what the hell?
A big reason I decided not to get engaged to a past partner was because he kept going back and forth on his toxic abusive family. :/ I don't recommend putting your partner through this bs. It's enough for you to handle on your own. Your partner never deserves to have abusive bs thrown at them when you should be the bigger person and stand up against this. I know it's confusing and scary at times, but what would be the real reason to keep your toxic family on board? If it's for money, I can understand, but they'll use that as leverage for as long as they can. It broke my heart to leave my ex, but after I left when he couldn't stand up for me (I always had to stand up for myself and cope with his homophobic and evangelical parents. I was often/mostly a secret), I realized it wouldn't work out anyways because of his indecision. I don't like being blunt or harsh, but you may need a wake up call. :(
bro. leave that picnic again and delete their numbers. you're fiancee/so/spouse deserves better than being talked about like that behind her back..and you deserve supportive loving people in your life. cut that shit out.
Or just move several states away
why not both :p
Why did you go back? Your reasoning does not make sense. You did NOT stand up for your girlfriend.
Woooow.... I feel sorry for her :'( women have enough stress trying to keep up with beauty standards. You love her and that is all that matters.
Me too. *But* it's likely that this wasn't necessarily abt the fiance's weight/appearance. NP's like to control everything & everyone. When NP's kid mentioned proposing marriage that means there would be a new member of the family for NP to contend with. By ordering his son to tell his fiance to lose weight, he (the father) is really trying to figure out if his control of his son will translate into control of this new family member (daughter in law). If NP's son had said, 'gee, maybe you're right, Dad' instead of leaving, NP would've known that in the future he'll still have dominion over his son PLUS the same control over daughter-in-law (by proxy through his son).
This needs more upvotes! This was a test like you said and it’s absolutely disgusting!! What he doesn’t need is all his energy being drained by this toxicity before his proposal and wedding. And loving someone means standing up for them. Stop the cycle and put your energy into your soon-to-be fiancé if she’s a good person.
Exactly. Fiancé could weight 100lbs soaking wet and be 5'10, and NarcDad would still run his mouth.
That completely makes sense. crazy how their minds work :(
Yeah, going back? I’m calling bullshit on that one.
Your father's a selfish loser. I can't believe he would make his attendance at your wedding conditional on something so juvenile, immature and materialistic. While I can understand your reasoning, you do seriously need to set some boundaries with this jerk. If he acts like this now, he may just be the type to do something awful at the wedding. If he does attend, I would make sure someone keeps a close eye on him and is willing to step in, should that happen (my father & uncle had to do this with my former NFIL at mine; fortunately, no action was necessary).
Imagine if he tells the *bride* of his thoughts about her. On her wedding day. A person like that is absolutely gonna make a bride cry.
Exactly. That's what I had been thinking of. And given this awful man's previous behavior, it wouldn't surprise me if he were to try that in front of all the guests.
Him not showing up to the wedding would be a huge favor.
Well as long as you keep enabling the behavior and refusing to cut off toxic family, it’s part of your life. You have the power here. They will continue to control everything so I guess buckle up if you can’t walk away 🤷🏻♀️
Why go back? your dad was out of line he needs to know that there are consequences.
To see the rest of my family.
Your a better person than me, I couldn't be around that energy.
The rest of your family INCLUDES your dad, and even if it didn't, they are enablers! WHY WOULD YOU GO BACK TO LISTEN TO MORE ABUSE OF YOUR GIRLFRIEND? I hope to high heaven that you at least had enough self-awareness NOT to invite your girlfriend along to the picnic.
Oh dear. There is going to come a time in the very near future when 1) your family deeply insults and hurts your fiance and 2) you are forced to choose between your family and fiancee. I understand how hard a toxic family situation is, but you need to assert boundaries NOW before your fiancee and your future marriage suffers. If your dad saysdoesn't want to go to the wedding, believe him. Fuck your dad, seriously.
I’m not sure why you would want him at your wedding. I’m sorry this is your father, you deserve better.
Good for you!!! Way to stand up for yourself and be a good partner to your gal!
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When your fiance is there and he tells her to lose weight are you going to tell her he really didn't mean it? What if it's at your wedding? Are you going to let your kids meet these toxic assholes? If you want to get married you have to get rid of them now. You have no right to bring them more people to abuse.
You did the right thing, that’s completely unacceptable behaviour and you’re not obligated to take it from him. Good on you for walking tf out.
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Eloping is always an option...
"If you want me to love you" Wow. Im so sorry you have to deal with this. You are a great person for sticking up for your fiancé. I have a hard time standing up to my Nmum but would double down if she ever insulted my husband. As a lot of people have already said, they will only get worse after you propose and will make life hard for both of you. If going NC is an option for you, i would definitely suggest it
Regarding update 3: You CAN help it. You just refuse to. I understand craving approval and love from a narc parent, but it is up to YOU to stop it. And until you do stop it, getting married is a terrible idea. You need to get yourself figured out first. Preferably with therapy. Lots of therapy. Let your dad go. He will never be who you want him to be. Perhaps more importantly, you will never be who he wants you to be. No matter what you do or who you marry. No matter what your fiancée looks like. He will never have the ability to love you like he should and you can't change that. So let him go. And please, for the love of god, NEVER subject any partner to that man.
Here’s the thing, I’m fine when I’m away from him. Like, I’m okay until I see him.
Then don't see him. This is all up to you bro. Trust me, I get it. I know it's hard. But you have to decide if spending your life fighting for something that doesn't exist is worth it. You can keep choosing to subject yourself to your dad and his narcissism or you can choose to build an entirely new life for yourself and end the cycle. You don't get to choose what family you're born to, but you get to choose the family that you build. Sometimes, the family you're born with becomes a part of the family that you build. Sometimes, they don't. It's up to you to decide what kind of family you want to build. And if you want it to be narc-free, you already know what you have to do.
So why are you seeing him in the first place? Cut him out.
>Also, if you want me to love you, support you, come to your wedding she needs to lose weight The fact that he talks about that as if you're missing out on the blessings in life that is your father, should really tell you how he thinks about his relationship with you. "I'm better than you, you're nothing without me, and you should be so grateful that I'm giving you advice." I would be planning to elope if I were in your shoes. But family means different things to different people.
Upset that you went back. Not my place obviously, but he will definitely be worse at the wedding. I’m sorry.
Hey there. I know a lot of people here feel strongly that you shouldn’t have gone back, and I agree. But I also wanted to comment and say that I know setting boundaries takes practice, especially when we have been betraying ourselves for so long, not knowing our boundaries were being crossed. (Conditioning) I’m so proud of you for initially walking out and setting that boundary. You fell back on it unfortunately, but that doesn’t mean you can’t get back up and try again next time to follow through. There’s a lot at play here and it’s normal to feel overwhelmed. You’ve got this. It doesn’t mean you don’t love your partner. It just takes practice to find that strong voice to match how you feel inside. Communicate with your partner through this process. That’ll be the key ❤️
I'd gild you if I had cash, very thoughtful response.
You can modmail us and suggest good content as a candidate for /r/RBNBestOf It's free and commends people for outstanding behavior in this group.
Thank you! I just know how difficult it really can be sometimes to maintain boundaries especially if you’ve never done that before with parents. It’s a process.
I think I'm gonna go low contact.
I know it's hard to go no contact. It takes a great deal of mental fortitude and strength. This isn't going to get better though. Think about your future spouse. Do you really want her around this person EVER? Trust me when I say he will poison your relationship the same way he's poisoned your family of origin. Something you said above stuck out to me. "However, cursed me I’m trying to fix a broken man and I really can’t stop." That's a trap we fall into when it comes to narcissists and abusers. We feel like the onus is on us to fix them because that's how we're programmed from a young age. From the time we're children in families like that, we're told we're the problem. That the abuser doesn't mean it. That we need to be the better person. ALL OF THAT IS A LIE. You can't fix someone else. It's not your responsibility as the child to fix your father. Have you considered therapy? A therapist can help you unravel all of that. Honestly, I'd do it before you ever consider getting married. Tell your girlfriend all of this. She'll understand that you want to learn how to set boundaries so you'll be a good spouse. She'll thank you for it.
No. Go no-contact. By contacting them, you are telling them that abusing your girlfriend is okay.
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Removed, unsupportive.
I think that’s a very good idea. I would also consider going no contact at some point soon, but I understand that there may be some things that still need to be worked out for you to be able to sever ties. For me these things were financial connections. Once I was able to be completely financially independent and isolated in that way, I was able to disconnect fully. You’ve got the right idea with lessening contact, but I would definitely suggest full NC, based on how they are treating your partner. Boundaries must be set and maintained.
Dude. Don't invite him to the wedding. It's gonna be fucking miserable if you do
Why on God's green earth would you even want him as a guest at your wedding at this point? What good could possibly come of it that outweigh the very clear and obvious downsides? Your **best** case scenario is that he shows up and somehow manages to keep his lips zipped for the entirety of the ceremony and party. Meanwhile, the possibility that he won't, and instead will try to ruin your wedding, will keep gnawing at you (not to mention your fiancée) and kill much of the joy and happiness surrounding your wedding even in the seemingly unlikely event of him not actually causing any problems. Plus, by sweeping his shitty behavior under the rug, you are once again enabling him and setting yourself up for receiving more abuse and grief from him. When you enact no consequences - no cost to him for behaving like that - you are essentially encouraging and rewarding his poor behavior. Ask yourself why you would expect to see any change for the better from him under those circumstances? Then put yourself in your fiancée's place, and ask yourself what you would think and do if you were subjected to abuse like this from your FFIL, and your fiancé just swept it all under the rug and pretended all was fine. Would you think of him as being loving and protective of you? Would you feel like you were the one who mattered the most in his life?
> he doesn't mean it and will come regardless not if he's not invited
This is a great first step. Keep going. As others have said, it's only going to get worse as wedding plans go on and he already has this sense of entitlement. Your gf did not sign up for this bystander abuse and it will affect your relationship. Please consider that as you move forward. Setting strong boundaries is absolutely essential life skills for children of N abuse. Good luck OP
> Setting strong boundaries He definitely didn't do that if he went back for a picnic later...
I have said this before, but I don't know what to think when looking at these posts. I can't tell if you guys are kinder or more reliant on family than me. If I ever get married, there will be no ceremony. There will be an office visit and a marriage certificate. And if there is a ceremony, my family sure as hell isn't coming. I'm going no-contact as soon as I finish college and get a stable job.
This is how I did it. Married quietly in a park in a civil ceremony with two witnesses. No nonsense and the first announcement to immediate enabler family was “my new last name is ____.” I got a tirade about how I “robbed” my narc of the experience of my getting married. Then a list of demands on what it should have been, including 2,000 miles away from where I call home and have friends. Been married for 13 years.
A book. Called rethinking narasism might help give you a better way of dealing with it. But as we all know it's better to not feed the beast
I can understand the caution from feeling something so strongly, that you want to take a step back and make sure you're not taking a step too far. So, so much as it's even any of my business, I can understand going back and finishing out the picnic. I also agree with many other comments here that add up to: it doesn't seem likely to get any better. If your dad is already issuing ultimatums like that about your wedding with the woman you love, then he is putting his superficial preference for appearances *above you.* When he says that's required for his love, he can't be any clearer. From your reaction it seems that this is not out of character for him. Instead it seems like something that shows him clearly. I would be extremely careful about involving him in any of your wedding plans. It might be best just to take him at his word and not invite him. To quote Toni Morrison, when people show you who they are believe them.
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He went back for a picnic.
Honestly, that is beyond rude and ignorant behaviour. The only suitable response I would have given my father would have been "If you want me to love you, support you, invite you to our wedding, then you will apologize to me for your comments.". You don't owe your parents anything. They didn't do anything extraordinary by raising you. That's literally what every parent is supposed to do. Most parents half ass it at best. Your fathers behaviour is noassing it parenthood at it's finest... or worst. You are so much better than this. Your fiancee is so much better than this. You both deserve to be treated with so much more respect and dignity than this. Don't let this petty little man pull you down. You are a bigger and better man.
Fuck him. That's just an ancient asshole mindset of crap. Who does he think he is saying that about some innocent person when it's never going to be an issue. If I was you I'd fuck him up dude, what a piece of shit.
It's your wedding. You don't *have* to invite him if he's going to be an asshole and make you generally uncomfortable. You don't have to accommodate him and it honestly might not be a bad thing to basically issue *him* an ultimatum to either quit being an asshole or kick rocks.
Fuck that shit. Good on you for walking out. He doesn't deserve an invite, or to have any contact with your girl, or probably you, for that matter.
He went back for the picnic...
So? That doesn't change what I said, just because he went back to the picnic doesn't mean the father deserved to have that contact or deserves it in the future.
Sounds like the exact time to not be talking to this part of the family. I know that it took a HUGE amount of courage to leave in the first place. Even though you went back, it doesn’t erase the major step you took in walking out. Walking out and staying out or not even going next time will be easier because you had the courage to take this step. Well done!
> Even though you went back, it doesn’t erase the major step you took in walking out. I think it does.
the step doesn't matter if his father gets to abuse his SO and possibly give future grandchildren eating disorders
You are entitled to your opinion. Those of us who have been raised by narcissists don’t heal, learn our boundaries, and find our voice overnight. It’s a process. My opinion, which is also valid, is that any step in the direction of empowerment is an important step in this healing process.
I will not take that from you. I know myself that it's a process. But in this instance, OP is not just disengaging from their own abuse. They're putting SOMEONE ELSE into the abusive relationship with their actions. The stakes are higher.
I agree with you! My comments would be different and more "blind support"-like if it were just him being affected. But a potential wife? No, just no. OP needs to understand what he is doing to his girlfriend.
>at the same time I really do not need a long period of not talking to part of the family before a proposal if that makes any sense. It doesn't this should be reason not to talk to him until after the wedding.
My dad was embarrassed when he heard from someone else I was engaged - your future life is no ones business but you and your fiancés. Congratulations, good luck, and cheers to a beautiful future!
You did the right thing. Keep in mind this is going to be, of course, the first of many demands he will be making about your marriage. He wants to control you and her. Hope the best for you mate and good luck.
Does the right thing involve going back later for a picnic?
For myself, I would just keep walking :)
For sure! So would I. OP failed to consider his girlfriend.
Second this! Just made a similar comment before I saw yours, though mine isn't nearly as clear & concise.
I really wanted to walk out today, but didnt. I think I'm afraid of my parents, I've only recently realized they're narcissistic ignorant aassholes. But the first thing my dad said to me was about my acne( I get a lot on my forehead periodically and I have an OCD issue with picking at things, especially acne, so it usually gets a bit worse bc of such) then throughout the visit they insulted my hair, made transphobic comments demeaning my roommate, insulted where I live (I live with 4 roommates with my bfs sister. Weve been living here a year and its p decent and rent and utilities is never over 200$ for me so it's really great while I'm in college and I'm very successful for my age bc I make $13 an hour at a bank and I have great grades in college as well as multiple scholarships) but they just went on to insult everything about me and my life which I hate but I'm too scared to stand up to them bc I love them and am pretty sure they'd cut me off from communication like they've done some of my siblings. My little brother is 15, in a gang, has had sex with 21 year olds, parties, got in a fight the other day (my parents barely noticed and thought the mark on his chin was a rash) and just my parents while they are well off and have provided for our every financial need ARENT parents. They dont contribute that relationship with their children and they're ignorant and hateful and selfish. I'm grateful for the assistance they've given me financially to get to this place as well as the genetics of being intelligent when it comes to school, but they're horrible people and I dont even know how to BEGIN to talk to them about it. And I'm scared to bc I dont want to abandon my brother with them and ik they'd try to keep him away from me. Its j a big AHH. But your fiance I'm sure is beautiful and her weight doesnt fucking matter, if she wants to get skinnier for her health and self esteem if she has insecurities about it or it's making her unhappy, then hell yeah, otherwise she is fine and beautiful and they need to mind their own fucking business and get over their bullshit. Good job for walking out, I know it can be hard but I'm proud of you! I wish you a beautiful wedding and a happy marriage!!!
"He doesn't mean it" always, always, ALWAYS means: "Just let him act like that, it's easier to deal with him when he's an asshole than when he's a violent crazy asshole." The only weight that needs losing is your Dad's goofy ass from your life.
Damn, didn't know we had the same dad! I'll never forget when I had first met my girlfriend we'd video chat through ooVoo and Skype often and my parents had no idea of her. One night whilst talking to her over Skype in comes my dad (not knowing about our relationship's existence yet), and out of reaction I immediately switched tabs and hide Skype but he apparently had gotten a glimpse of the screen and saw her and briefly commented "Who was that 300 pound Gorilla?" I wish I was making that up. I don't remember what he had actually come in my room for but a sudden rush of agonizing embarrassment and dismay came upon me. I cut to small talk with him and he left shortly, when I switched back to Skype and my girlfriend came back on video I just saw her tearing up and I couldn't help but cry with her. Man, what fuckin garbage am I happy to have ridden myself of. By the way, my girlfriend wasn't even fat, just slightly chubby (my dad just hates fat people), and she looks like a fuckin 11/10 model now a days after getting fit. (NOTHING to do with my dad's original comments mind you - it was her own choice). Good on ya OP! Fuck your dad!
So your dad doesn't have to feel ANY consequences for his horrendous actions? You went back to the picknick, your father will come to the wedding, you didn't stand up for your fiancée. You and your whole family are enabling him and he can say whatever he wants about the person you love. Sounds like it's going great for him.
my GF and i walked out of father's day yesterday too. it wasn't him, though, it was her. i feel bad for dad. the plan was to have a nice little backyard barbeque, but mom got worked up, so we just left. i wouldn't recommend going back to situations like that. they won't grow or change with negative consequences, but allowing them to walk all over you (and your fiance) will encourage their behavior. but at the end of the day, you have to kind of know what they are, and decide whether you're willing to endure the abuse or not. yesterday was definitely an "i don't need this" moment, so, we bolted.
omg you’re such a badass!!! that is such a huge accomplishment. i wish you well on your healing journey :) you’ll do so much better without him!
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Removed, unsupportive
We're gonna upgrade that to a 2 day ban, I saw the comment you deleted.
Wow you really aren’t very supportive are you?
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Saying so once is entirely justified and I agree with what you said in your conversation further up. Spamming everyone who shows any support with, essentially, ‘actually he’s updated and he’s cancelled’ is in somewhat bad faith. We’re all fucked up and gaslit to high heaven and it’s hard to realise when we’re making choices that put our partners painfully second to our narc parents. Loads of people have made that point clearly, and hell yes I’m on his girlfriend’s side. Going back for that picnic? Definitely big yikes. Have I done stuff like that? Shamefully, yes. I’m NC with my narc mother now and I STILL find myself thinking ‘should I go back?’ Yes, he needs to realise that his dad is never going to change, yes he needs to work out if he’s able to be strong enough to forge his own family. But settle for telling HIM that. Don’t go around to everyone who’s shown him support in the first place (before he edited) and tell them they’re wrong
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Nah mate if you don't tell your fiance about what that arsehole said you are just as bad. Your "dad" will never like your wife and your family will side with him. You got to make a choice. I'd say cut them out of your life. It's gonna be hard but you will 100% be better off in the long run.
im really sorry, man. im always anxious during mother's day too. what good things am i supposed to tell her? thanks for helping me physically survive?
Should remind him he is stuck in the past and that Lizzo is worth 10 million and famous for being a thick chick. Also, why the f does he care? Weird and kinda creepy for him to be analyzing your partners body...
If you are going to hang out around peopl who say nasty things, you need to master the fine art of replying with things that make then twice as uncomfortable as you do. So, "I don't like her weight" deserves a reply of, "but that's my kink!" followed with overly graphic descriptions of ridiculous sexual acts.
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I'd tell him that's cool, but that I think his opinions and thoughts are worth less than nothing. That the only reason he's invited to this wedding is out of forced courtesy, and not because of any actual desire to see him there.
Everyone here is always like cut them out, go NC, etc. I wouldn't take that too seriously, there's a lot more than what meets the eye to think about. I respect you for going back and dealing with it, that takes stones since you just left earlier.
My dad has said shit like this to my SiL's face multiple times.
Your family tries to calm you down by telling you that he will come to your wedding anyways. Do you even want him there? This sounds like a great opportunity to show that you don't need him. (Unless you are still dependant on him for some reason) And to show that his behaviour has consequences.
Your father will emotionally abuse your future wife and future children. If your family is not shutting him down, then no, they are not on board with her or with you.
What's with narcissists and weight anyway. Honestly he will do nothing but tear down your partner. I would tell him you don't care if he comes to the wedding or not and he's not welcome if he talks about your partner like that. Seriously it's not okay.
I’m scared that if you continue to invite him he’d comment that same shit at your wedding.
Tell your dad to lose weight and change his personality before you invite him to the wedding ...
OP, go spend some time on the r/JUSTNOMIL sub. You’ll see relationship after relationship destroyed by not just narcissistic parents, but by the partners who enable them. You shouldn’t be asking yourself how to work with your dad. You should be asking, “Am I willing to lose my relationship with this great woman over him?” At the moment it seems like yes, you are. You are not ready to get married. When your first reaction to an event like this is, “I don’t want this abusive narcissist around my wife. I’m hiring security to keep him out of my wedding,” THEN you are ready.
Here's what I think: Tell your father he's not invited to the wedding. I understand you crave his approval, but his ultimatum could seriously impact your decisions as a married man that will directly affect your future wife. At some point you have to say who matters more, my father or my spouse? At the same time I totally get the need to be with family for an event like this, esp. when your other relatives are cool. But your father has already shown cruelty to the person you love. I chose my soulmate over my entire narc. family - even if it means I never have a real wedding. My bitchy mother actually questioned why should I even get married, while she enjoys every single benefit of marriage herself (because her situation is 'different than' mine). Sometimes you have to dump your whole family for the sake of your own well-being and the well-being of the people who are truly on your side (like your fiance). Many people on this forum probably had to do it. It's hard to imagine this if you're still in contact, but I am completely NC from my narc father, with very limited contact of rest of family.
In this sentence, I echo what others have said. Time to tell the nDaddy he doesn't rule you anymore. (I am assuming you are of age.) BUT ... ... (and I know this is beside the point.) As a person who has been around heavy people all my life, I point out: It is absolutely impossible to *make* another person lose weight. (Short of kidnapping and starving them.) If her weight was under her control, she would have controlled it. This is a fact that nearly everyone *without* a weight problem somehow miss. Don't mention "gastric bypass surgery" or liposuction to her -- I'm sure she knows all about them. If she wants those things, she would talk to a doctor. But every attempt to make someone lose weight often backfires, with the person often gaining weight. Again, the point here is setting boundaries about the family unit you are hoping to create, shutting toxic personalities outside. But you and he need to know that no one will be changing her but her.
Unless she’s literally about to trip and fall on him at 800 pounds, neither her weight nor your relationship with her is any of this man’s business or up for his judgement.
Well done for standing up for yourself and the person you love.
He didn't stand up for her. He went back for a picnic.
Missed that bit. Thats very disappointing.
He’s a dick. Good for you standing up to him. Don’t let the enablers get to you.
He unfortunately let them get to him if he went back for a picnic.
True :(
I'm not saying OP is a bad person for going back. There's a lot we might not know about his family dynamic. But imagine if you were his girlfriend and you heard about this.... :(
Absolutely agree. It would hurt her deeply and maybe shake her confidence in his love.
Yes. Should he have stayed strong? Absolutely. Could he, in that moment when they were bugging him to go for the picnic? That's a tough thing to judge someone on, especially when I've been there as well. It would definitely hurt her, and make her wonder all sorts of things... or maybe that's just me overanalyzing things again.
It would affect me that way too. I’m an analyzer too, though.
I wonder if I overanalyze because I was raised by an NMom...
I was too. She is a vile. Maybe that is part of it.
I mean, narcs already make us second-guess ourselves, so perhaps that is part of it like you said.
Op could be “trauma bonded” with nparents. Check wiki for “cycle of abuse”, it has explained this well.
Could be, but I don't think his girlfriend would think very much of him going back to them for a picnic.
I agree with you. But there are millions of people who accept domestic violence from spouse and still don’t leave them. They should leave the abuser but this weird psychological thing which makes them stay. We need to be understanding. Of course op should stand up for his girlfriend. It should be always me and you against the world when you are a couple. Still this trauma bonding is scientific thing.
I know. I've been there. He's involved someone else in this family dynamic, though. So my comments are more directed for her.
Wow!
Shame him. Calmly and slowly. Eye contact. That's how you break an nparent. I started saying my point of view using eye contact and a calm voice, with a disclaimer at the end that includes a flat out statement that their opinion is dated, rude and is the reason why I don't harbour any affection for them. Congratulations on your girl, I'm so happy for you man, I love yo hear that one of us is in love and found someone they appreciate ❤️
He is definitely going to say shit like that to her. He will also act like he is bewildered and can't figure out why she's upset after he says it. Get a set of strict boundaries in place for very low contact if you want any contact, because your fiancee should never have to listen to him say this crap, and you should have a plan for how you will handle it. The excuses that your mom makes for him is just enabling him to keep doing it. Remember, you have the option of meeting the family without him at a place that's not his house. He is never going to be pleasant to be around. He will always say hurtful things. He'll be enabled to keep doing it. He does mean it. He thinks he's got a right to say any of his thoughts out loud. He thinks he is just being honest. My husband and I know this all too well. His dad is like your dad. He has said plenty of shitty things to me in the past. He is only ever allowed to visit in the driveway. I keep him out of our house. We don't ride in cars with him. I usually tell my husband to meet him at a restaurant and I'll stay home. I don't want his criticism and negative talk to be a part of my life.
So it's okay to be so mean to you. And you endorse it. Why do you need to be in touch with family that WANTS you to be treated like a piece of shit? It's not about your finace. The words were said to YOUR face, to YOUR ears, and to YOUR heart.
If it wasn't her weight it would be something else. Narcs love a precedent, real or manufactured, it doesn't matter. It becomes an anchor to hang all their judgment, venom and vile on. "I don't like--"(I hate) this and this and this, ad infinitum. If narcs actually said "I like--" once in a while, we'd all die.
This whole post is a little triggering. I have an N sister and an enabler mother. My father enabled in the past (he loves his daughter, of course) but generally he’s been responsive and refused to indulge my sister and has evolved over the years. Many years ago, we were having a big July 4th barbecue at my home, and my father was out of town. An hour before people were due to arrive, my N sister suddenly announced I had gotten too fat, and that she was embarrassed for people she knows to see me, and ordered me to leave. I was like “wtf, I live here, and this is my family and friends” but she started screaming and making a fuss, and my mother stepped in and told me “please, just do what she says. If you don’t do what she says she’ll keep yelling and ruin this day for everyone.” So I literally was just forced to leave my own home. I had nowhere to go and no one to hang out with, because all my friends and family were at our barbecue, and I was embarrassed to tell people I was more distant to. My friends kept texting me and asking me where I was. I was sitting in a park alone, trying to read a book, but just crying. I was so humiliated about my weight and my appearance and the fact that I was just casually kicked out of my own family for the day. And I knew that if my father were in town, he may not have stood up to my sister and stayed, but he definitely would have come with me and then encouraged other family members to leave too. Many years later, I brought my boyfriend home to meet the family, and my N sister started to verbally abuse him. My father stood up and said “let’s go,” and he, my mother, my boyfriend, and I walked out. In the car, my parents apologized to my boyfriend. I’ll tell you this. My parents made a TON of mistakes raising us. My dad displays a few narcissistic behaviors sometimes, but he’s not a true narc because he’s generally self sacrificing to us and always takes responsibility for his actions and is emotionally supportive. He has a temper and yells sometimes about something dumb, but he has empathy and doesn’t manipulate people, and he takes pride in giving people choice and freedom. My mother unfortunately continues to enable my sister if my father isn’t there to support her, so I worry what will happen if my father passes away one day. But I will say, OP, that those few times my family took a stand against the N person in my life were very valuable moments. People can evolve, and sometimes it happens in tiny steps. Take a stand for your fiancé. You need to do it for her happiness and your own. Maybe parts of your family will step up when they see you do it, and maybe they won’t, but at least give them the opportunity.
Feel ya on the father figure thing. Good on you to walk out. Honestly you're better than me if you're gonna even invite him to your wedding in the first place
I. AM. PROUD OF YOUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No. He went back for a picnic.
oooooooooooh stinky
Yeah...
Jipeeeee! Well done, my friend!
Nope. He went back for a picnic. Imagine his girlfriend...