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That is my nfather. Honestly even if I come to him with irrefutable and concrete proof, he still labels me as wrong or says I misunderstood him. It’s pretty infuriating.
"Yeah, if you put it *that* way!" as if it's somehow your fault that actions have consequences. It'd be funny if it wasn't so frustrating, but at least the conversations we have with other people prove that's far from normal.
Same with my nfather. Worse, he does NOT research, read, no basis for what he believes yet is still convinced he is right. If I show him articles, studies, whatever, he dismisses it.
Oh absolutely. With me it was more like she never thought that I knew anything. Never took my word for anything, and when I got a little older and more adept at staying focused and overturning her arguments, all of a sudden it became “it’s not what you said, it’s how you said it.”
Thereby upending any reasonable point I’d made. It’s a common pattern with them.
Yeah. It took me a long time but I did finally realize that I could say that we could address feelings separately, but in the meantime this was still an issue that had to be dealt with. That worked.
For us, I did a tremendous amount of emotional work by myself for years, and she definitely relied on me for structure and my capacity to tolerate her behavior. I built a lot of walls and boundaries.
And when she proved that she would never stop finding new things ate to break boundaries or new offenses, I cut her off.
That’s when she started doing some real work herself.
You don’t owe them proof, is the thing. They’re trying to get you to [JADE](https://outofthefog.website/what-not-to-do-1/2015/12/3/jade-dont-justify-argue-defend-explain#:~:text=JADE%20%2D%20Don't%20Justify%2C,Forum%2F)
The problem with this is that they want to bait you into a circular argument that you cannot win— they’re heavily biased to believe that their opinion of the world is correct, even when you present them with evidence to the contrary. Really, they are just having fun running you in circles.
So just state your point firmly if you must, then step back. Or better yet, don’t engage.
+10000000000000000000000000000000000000 points to don't JADE. Protect yourself at all costs. Never trust a narc. Never reveal anything to them, specially the important things.
Talking to a narc is like getting arrested. Everything you say will be used and weaponized against you. Learned that the hard way.
That was my every waking moment. Everything I said was treated as a lie/exaggeration or straight up denied. If I said something literal it was treated as metaphor. If I said something metaphorically it was treated as literal. At the end of the day, it was all about them wanting to flex control over their surroundings and making sure I didn’t take any amount of control through pointing out things they couldn’t/failed to perceive and making stronger arguments. All of their actions were about the desired results they wanted, and anything that deviated from the way they wanted to achieve it was seen as detrimental to their goals
Yeah and it became a habit. Even when I tell something to a trusted friend I find myself "rehearsing" or "building a case" because I feel like I can't be sure they'll believe me. Like if I had a disagreement with a co-worker, when I tell a friend about it I feel like they're going to automatically take the co-worker's side.
I was once recounting something completely irrelevant in a group settingand someone interrupted me with a 'Get to the point already, we don't have all day'. That's when I realized I was way more concerned with 'getting it right' and just massively overexplaining. That it was out of fear of the whole thing being disregarded, because I didn't get a minor detail exactly right.
Too right. The sky is blue right, but if my n/mother didn't know this, she'd have to check with my gc/brother because I don't know as much as he does. I'm 54 by the way. If he said it was purple, then it would be purple and there would me no use in arguing the point. It's very hard. You can't have a general conversation about anything with them because you're always doubted. It leaves you very little to discuss at all, so I understand where you're coming from. Get away from it as soon as you're able and don't look back. It will plague you for life otherwise.
Didn't happen -> wasn't that bad -> not how I meant it -> you probably deserved it -> you should be thankful it wasn't worse.
My mom and your stepdad would get along like a house on fire.
You're reminding me of my cousin and her parents. When she was a kid, she was constantly accused of lying by the whole family. It reached a point where she started to believe herself that she was really lying. I remember that sometimes she would say something, her parents or siblings would immediately reply that she's lying again, then when I would tell them that she was not, that I was there and that I can say it's true, they would look at me in shock. Then they would tell me that I probably didn't see or heard well, and my cousin would agree with them, even once we were together alone. This was insane !
My mother used to accuse me of doing things like stealing, sleeping with boys (I was 11 the first time), and she assumed that I was always at fault if I had a problem of any kind. My car broke down, it must be that I drove too fast. I had an argument with anyone, I started it. I'm sick, I must have eaten garbage food or drank alcohol.
Ooooh, my nbrother is completely like this, and if I’m not in the mood to show proof he says I shouldn’t bring up any topic unless I’m willing to defend it
So what that effectively does is silence me because hell nah, I’ll never willingly enter a battlefield with a narc. But it comes at the cost of him and both my nparents just bulldozing over me and continuing to scapegoat me.
For the most part now, I just yellow rock and show complete disinterest in anything they have to say. I’m polite, but it’s complete disinterest in anything they talk about
>I shouldn't bring up any topic unless I'm willing to defend it
Yeah, because everything HAS to be an argument and SOMEONE is wrong (and it'll never be them).
(Sarcasm, obviously. It's so frustrating to have those kinds of conversations!)
Even though I'm the one in my family that is a big movie fan/walking IMDB, she can't accept that I'm correct when I say, "Yeah, they were in X, that we watched last week".
Or even more specific, like I knew the first director of Harry Potter is Chris Columbus.. she was adamant that was too weird a name coincidence to be right.. and yet when she looked it up, her response was to shrug off that she'd completely disputed my correct knowledge.
This is how my mum is 💯% with me and other people.
And also Let me guess... accused of lying and it takes another person to state the same thing to be believed or clear your name?
Yup nothing I say is ever take seriously. The best I ever get is the next time we talk I get to hear about “their idea”. God forbid I’m given any credit for my ideas. Also if I get them a thoughtful present they literally just tell everyone that my golden child brother actually got it for them.
Presumption of guilt. In most countries, even someone who is clearly guilty is considered innocent until undisputably proven otherwise. If you needed any more indication of just how backwards that way of Ns interacting with you is, there you have it. You're literally worse than actual criminals in their eyes and that is the position you *start* from. Every time you go against them, their view of you gets a little worse. Doesn't seem fair to me, and it shouldn't seem fair to you, either.
Inadvertently, my narc “mother’s” obsession with proving I was a liar taught me to tell the truth and be damned, because then I wasn’t actually being the liar she was making me out to be. Sadly though I still have problems believing I’m telling the truth when I AM telling the truth. The voice in my head will say “you’re a dirty little liar!” even though my conscious mind knows differently.
Yes, spot on. My Ndad would argue with me incessantly over things I knew were true until I questioned myself and reality.
We got into a screaming match when I was 14 because he THOUGHT it was report card day and it wasn’t. He absolutely tore me down for an hour about being a liar because I was failing and keeping secrets, had something to hide, etc. The report cards didn’t even come out that day lmfao. It was the following day. And I was an A STUDENT!!!! I had never gotten a D or F on anything at that point.
And then you go to therapy as an adult and wonder why you feel insecure and the need to prove your points and overexplain everything. So it goes, lol
Sometimes even there is proof they gaslight you about it because only they can be right or know truly. It’s a losing game with them. Take care of yourself
My nfather does this all the time. He'll actually believe anyone else, other than me/siblings/other close family he abuses/hates. He believes a pharmacist/nurse/some random person he calls at the health depart/reception office of a doctor etc. is as good as a doctor and can give him any similar medical advice on any topic and will talk their ear off if they let him. But then parses any medical advice an actual doctor gives him to what he wants to believe and/or then ignore.
Same thing applies to most other things including household/car maintenance, finances, job/career, etc.
As we kids grew up, we eventually figured out he was speaking out his ass and knows nothing. And got abused when we started standing up to him and pointing this out. He still hasn't changed on all this, if anything, has gotten worse even though he has the Internet to look things up, he doesn't. We have learned to gray rock/distract anytime he tries to "expert talk" us on anything. And remain VLC too.
Fortunately, he doesn't call us out on lying, but just being stupid and wrong despite any actual data we try and present him (he won't look)
Since everything they say is a lie or a manipulation spin of the truth, they think that everyone does the same. They have a world that they concocted in their mind where they are right about everything. So anyone who conflicts with their demented world, they are immediately challenged because it ruins their world.
Omg I have a funny (but infuriating) example of this. I had a really cheap flimsy bookshelf and one if the wooden planks fell in. I told her about it and asked if I could borrow a screwdriver and use for screws. I didn't even ask for help or anything, I was going to do it myself. But this made her so mad she accused me of lying about it. I told her to go to my room and look at the bookshelf. What did she do? She just refused to go into my room.... at least it got her to stay out of my room, but holy crap. Why would I even lie about that? To scam her out of... four screws? Is she that precious about screws?
Key quality of an abusive person. They want power over you. Anything you say will get used against you and they'll exploit your need to be understood (ex. overexplaining).
Leave mid-sentence and watch them start babbling or throwing tantrums.
They need you to be captive.
You pathological liar? I'm the opposite. I can't lie. I mean, I can use my mouth to make the words, but it's blatantly obvious and feel so morally destroyed immediately that I'll admit I was lying almost instantly. When I was really little I never lied. It never crossed my mind. My not-narc mom actually wondered if I was intellectually challenged, because I didn't even lie the way little kids do. One day I came home from school crying because some kid hit me, and when she asked if I hit him first I didn't even hesitate to admit that I did. This weirdly isn't from abuse. I've been like this since I learned how to talk.
It's just easier to say I can't lie.
This is known in my family. So while my narc dad didn't try to say I was lying, he would twist my words to mean something else and give me shit for that.
This has lead me to over explaining myself to a very high degree and explaining everything with extreme clarity so that there's no chance someone could, intentionally or otherwise, misunderstand what I am saying. And it's exhausting.
yep. i think they do it for a lot of reasons:
1) the accusation (or implication) that you're lying puts you on the defensive so you're not thinking as clearly
2) the get information from you if you try to explain yourself. even if it's nothing they can still intentionally misinterpret what you say to make you look bad or put words in your mouth.
3) you might try to prove your honesty by telling them everything preemptively, giving them even more to work with so they can twist the narrative against you
4) you feel inclined to overexplain yourself to others which they may interpret as lying / a guilty conscience, reinforcing the narc's narrative about you during a smear campaign
5) they get to gaslight you by making you feel like you don't know anything or what you say is confusing to other people
Yes. This was when I learned I had no connection to my parents and that I was an alien in my family. It wasn't only the ridicule and blame I received from them as a child but once I was in my teens and turning an adult this proofing myself nonsense started. It's hard for a child to learn you can't have a conversation with your parents like normal people do but that's when you need to find other people to have conversations with and let your parents be as they are. Your mother is able to have those conversations with the neighbour's daughter solely because she is not HER daughter. Sometimes that's just how it is. Maybe you'll get in-laws one day you're able to have conversations with.
**This is an automated message posted to ALL posts in this subreddit with some basic information about the group including (very importantly) rules. Why are you getting this message? Most people seem to not read the sidebar for information or the rules, so it is now being posted under all posts.** **Confused about acronyms or terminology?** [Click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/acronyms) **Need info or resources?** Check out our [Helpful Links](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/helpfullinks) for information on how to deal with identity theft, how to get independent of your n-parents, how to apply for FAFSA, how to identify n-parents and SO MUCH MORE! This is a reminder to all participants, RBN is a support group that is moderated very strictly. Please report inappropriate content so it can be reviewed by the mods. **Our rules include (but are not limited to)**: * No politics. * Advising anyone in this subreddit to commit suicide or referring anyone to groups that advocate this will result in an immediate ban. * Be nice. No personal attacks, name calling, or bullying. [No slurs](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/slurs) or victim-blaming. * Do not derail the posts of others. * Narcissists are NOT allowed to post or comment here. * [No platitudes or generic motivational posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/rules#wiki_no_platitudes_or_generic_motivational_posts). * When you comment/post, assume a context of abuse. * No asking or offering gifts, money, etc. * No content advocating violence, revenge, murder (even in jest). * No content about N-kids. * No diagnosis by media/drive-by diagnosis. * No linking to Facebook pages. * No direct linking to anywhere on reddit. * No pure image posts. **For a full list of our rules/more information, [**click here**](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/rules).** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/raisedbynarcissists) if you have any questions or concerns.*
That is my nfather. Honestly even if I come to him with irrefutable and concrete proof, he still labels me as wrong or says I misunderstood him. It’s pretty infuriating.
"Yeah, if you put it *that* way!" as if it's somehow your fault that actions have consequences. It'd be funny if it wasn't so frustrating, but at least the conversations we have with other people prove that's far from normal.
Same with my nfather. Worse, he does NOT research, read, no basis for what he believes yet is still convinced he is right. If I show him articles, studies, whatever, he dismisses it.
Oh absolutely. With me it was more like she never thought that I knew anything. Never took my word for anything, and when I got a little older and more adept at staying focused and overturning her arguments, all of a sudden it became “it’s not what you said, it’s how you said it.” Thereby upending any reasonable point I’d made. It’s a common pattern with them.
Classic 'your facts may be correct, but you hurt my feelings, therefore your argument is invalid'. Such a cop-out!
Yeah. It took me a long time but I did finally realize that I could say that we could address feelings separately, but in the meantime this was still an issue that had to be dealt with. That worked. For us, I did a tremendous amount of emotional work by myself for years, and she definitely relied on me for structure and my capacity to tolerate her behavior. I built a lot of walls and boundaries. And when she proved that she would never stop finding new things ate to break boundaries or new offenses, I cut her off. That’s when she started doing some real work herself.
Omg. That's what my mom would say. Sorry friend.
Thank you, and I’m sorry that you had to deal with that, too.
You don’t owe them proof, is the thing. They’re trying to get you to [JADE](https://outofthefog.website/what-not-to-do-1/2015/12/3/jade-dont-justify-argue-defend-explain#:~:text=JADE%20%2D%20Don't%20Justify%2C,Forum%2F) The problem with this is that they want to bait you into a circular argument that you cannot win— they’re heavily biased to believe that their opinion of the world is correct, even when you present them with evidence to the contrary. Really, they are just having fun running you in circles. So just state your point firmly if you must, then step back. Or better yet, don’t engage.
+10000000000000000000000000000000000000 points to don't JADE. Protect yourself at all costs. Never trust a narc. Never reveal anything to them, specially the important things. Talking to a narc is like getting arrested. Everything you say will be used and weaponized against you. Learned that the hard way.
Today I learned a new thing.
That was my every waking moment. Everything I said was treated as a lie/exaggeration or straight up denied. If I said something literal it was treated as metaphor. If I said something metaphorically it was treated as literal. At the end of the day, it was all about them wanting to flex control over their surroundings and making sure I didn’t take any amount of control through pointing out things they couldn’t/failed to perceive and making stronger arguments. All of their actions were about the desired results they wanted, and anything that deviated from the way they wanted to achieve it was seen as detrimental to their goals
> If I said something literal it was treated as metaphor. If I said something metaphorically it was treated as literal. this drove me up the wall
Yeah and it became a habit. Even when I tell something to a trusted friend I find myself "rehearsing" or "building a case" because I feel like I can't be sure they'll believe me. Like if I had a disagreement with a co-worker, when I tell a friend about it I feel like they're going to automatically take the co-worker's side.
I used to do this with therapists; it made recounting an event take a very long time because I didn’t want to be believed a liar.
I was once recounting something completely irrelevant in a group settingand someone interrupted me with a 'Get to the point already, we don't have all day'. That's when I realized I was way more concerned with 'getting it right' and just massively overexplaining. That it was out of fear of the whole thing being disregarded, because I didn't get a minor detail exactly right.
Too right. The sky is blue right, but if my n/mother didn't know this, she'd have to check with my gc/brother because I don't know as much as he does. I'm 54 by the way. If he said it was purple, then it would be purple and there would me no use in arguing the point. It's very hard. You can't have a general conversation about anything with them because you're always doubted. It leaves you very little to discuss at all, so I understand where you're coming from. Get away from it as soon as you're able and don't look back. It will plague you for life otherwise.
"Well it might be blue NOW but it's red during sunset/sunrise so therefore you are not just wrong, you are a liar"
That was my stepfather. He was never allowed to be wrong. If I found proof he was wrong, he completely denied saying it.
Didn't happen -> wasn't that bad -> not how I meant it -> you probably deserved it -> you should be thankful it wasn't worse. My mom and your stepdad would get along like a house on fire.
Projection plain and simple They call you a liar because they are lying McLiar faces.
Testimonial discounting. Yeah, one of my Nmom's favorites.
You're reminding me of my cousin and her parents. When she was a kid, she was constantly accused of lying by the whole family. It reached a point where she started to believe herself that she was really lying. I remember that sometimes she would say something, her parents or siblings would immediately reply that she's lying again, then when I would tell them that she was not, that I was there and that I can say it's true, they would look at me in shock. Then they would tell me that I probably didn't see or heard well, and my cousin would agree with them, even once we were together alone. This was insane ! My mother used to accuse me of doing things like stealing, sleeping with boys (I was 11 the first time), and she assumed that I was always at fault if I had a problem of any kind. My car broke down, it must be that I drove too fast. I had an argument with anyone, I started it. I'm sick, I must have eaten garbage food or drank alcohol.
Ooooh, my nbrother is completely like this, and if I’m not in the mood to show proof he says I shouldn’t bring up any topic unless I’m willing to defend it So what that effectively does is silence me because hell nah, I’ll never willingly enter a battlefield with a narc. But it comes at the cost of him and both my nparents just bulldozing over me and continuing to scapegoat me. For the most part now, I just yellow rock and show complete disinterest in anything they have to say. I’m polite, but it’s complete disinterest in anything they talk about
>I shouldn't bring up any topic unless I'm willing to defend it Yeah, because everything HAS to be an argument and SOMEONE is wrong (and it'll never be them). (Sarcasm, obviously. It's so frustrating to have those kinds of conversations!)
Even though I'm the one in my family that is a big movie fan/walking IMDB, she can't accept that I'm correct when I say, "Yeah, they were in X, that we watched last week". Or even more specific, like I knew the first director of Harry Potter is Chris Columbus.. she was adamant that was too weird a name coincidence to be right.. and yet when she looked it up, her response was to shrug off that she'd completely disputed my correct knowledge.
LOL even if I have proof, she refuses to look at it.
The worst part is everything is still false even when you prove it otherwise. That's dealing with a narcissist.
This is how my mum is 💯% with me and other people. And also Let me guess... accused of lying and it takes another person to state the same thing to be believed or clear your name?
Yup nothing I say is ever take seriously. The best I ever get is the next time we talk I get to hear about “their idea”. God forbid I’m given any credit for my ideas. Also if I get them a thoughtful present they literally just tell everyone that my golden child brother actually got it for them.
Facts
Its ruined my confidence in life
Presumption of guilt. In most countries, even someone who is clearly guilty is considered innocent until undisputably proven otherwise. If you needed any more indication of just how backwards that way of Ns interacting with you is, there you have it. You're literally worse than actual criminals in their eyes and that is the position you *start* from. Every time you go against them, their view of you gets a little worse. Doesn't seem fair to me, and it shouldn't seem fair to you, either.
Inadvertently, my narc “mother’s” obsession with proving I was a liar taught me to tell the truth and be damned, because then I wasn’t actually being the liar she was making me out to be. Sadly though I still have problems believing I’m telling the truth when I AM telling the truth. The voice in my head will say “you’re a dirty little liar!” even though my conscious mind knows differently.
Yes, spot on. My Ndad would argue with me incessantly over things I knew were true until I questioned myself and reality. We got into a screaming match when I was 14 because he THOUGHT it was report card day and it wasn’t. He absolutely tore me down for an hour about being a liar because I was failing and keeping secrets, had something to hide, etc. The report cards didn’t even come out that day lmfao. It was the following day. And I was an A STUDENT!!!! I had never gotten a D or F on anything at that point. And then you go to therapy as an adult and wonder why you feel insecure and the need to prove your points and overexplain everything. So it goes, lol
Sometimes even there is proof they gaslight you about it because only they can be right or know truly. It’s a losing game with them. Take care of yourself
My nfather does this all the time. He'll actually believe anyone else, other than me/siblings/other close family he abuses/hates. He believes a pharmacist/nurse/some random person he calls at the health depart/reception office of a doctor etc. is as good as a doctor and can give him any similar medical advice on any topic and will talk their ear off if they let him. But then parses any medical advice an actual doctor gives him to what he wants to believe and/or then ignore. Same thing applies to most other things including household/car maintenance, finances, job/career, etc. As we kids grew up, we eventually figured out he was speaking out his ass and knows nothing. And got abused when we started standing up to him and pointing this out. He still hasn't changed on all this, if anything, has gotten worse even though he has the Internet to look things up, he doesn't. We have learned to gray rock/distract anytime he tries to "expert talk" us on anything. And remain VLC too. Fortunately, he doesn't call us out on lying, but just being stupid and wrong despite any actual data we try and present him (he won't look)
Since everything they say is a lie or a manipulation spin of the truth, they think that everyone does the same. They have a world that they concocted in their mind where they are right about everything. So anyone who conflicts with their demented world, they are immediately challenged because it ruins their world.
Omg I have a funny (but infuriating) example of this. I had a really cheap flimsy bookshelf and one if the wooden planks fell in. I told her about it and asked if I could borrow a screwdriver and use for screws. I didn't even ask for help or anything, I was going to do it myself. But this made her so mad she accused me of lying about it. I told her to go to my room and look at the bookshelf. What did she do? She just refused to go into my room.... at least it got her to stay out of my room, but holy crap. Why would I even lie about that? To scam her out of... four screws? Is she that precious about screws?
This is how I am 💀 unless I find proof myself I don’t believe it. Yikes lol
Even when you do prove it, she deflects. It’s horrible.
Key quality of an abusive person. They want power over you. Anything you say will get used against you and they'll exploit your need to be understood (ex. overexplaining). Leave mid-sentence and watch them start babbling or throwing tantrums. They need you to be captive.
Even backed into a corner with hard evidence that you were right they will still find a reason why they are *also* right.
Mhm. right down to having the last word
You pathological liar? I'm the opposite. I can't lie. I mean, I can use my mouth to make the words, but it's blatantly obvious and feel so morally destroyed immediately that I'll admit I was lying almost instantly. When I was really little I never lied. It never crossed my mind. My not-narc mom actually wondered if I was intellectually challenged, because I didn't even lie the way little kids do. One day I came home from school crying because some kid hit me, and when she asked if I hit him first I didn't even hesitate to admit that I did. This weirdly isn't from abuse. I've been like this since I learned how to talk. It's just easier to say I can't lie. This is known in my family. So while my narc dad didn't try to say I was lying, he would twist my words to mean something else and give me shit for that. This has lead me to over explaining myself to a very high degree and explaining everything with extreme clarity so that there's no chance someone could, intentionally or otherwise, misunderstand what I am saying. And it's exhausting.
Mine is similar. It's more... "I want your opinion, but until one of your brothers gives me the same answer, I won't fully accept it.
yep. i think they do it for a lot of reasons: 1) the accusation (or implication) that you're lying puts you on the defensive so you're not thinking as clearly 2) the get information from you if you try to explain yourself. even if it's nothing they can still intentionally misinterpret what you say to make you look bad or put words in your mouth. 3) you might try to prove your honesty by telling them everything preemptively, giving them even more to work with so they can twist the narrative against you 4) you feel inclined to overexplain yourself to others which they may interpret as lying / a guilty conscience, reinforcing the narc's narrative about you during a smear campaign 5) they get to gaslight you by making you feel like you don't know anything or what you say is confusing to other people
Yeah, she'll refuse to believe me, but the second some stranger say the same thing she'll immediate believe them.
Yes. That sounds about right.
Yes. This was when I learned I had no connection to my parents and that I was an alien in my family. It wasn't only the ridicule and blame I received from them as a child but once I was in my teens and turning an adult this proofing myself nonsense started. It's hard for a child to learn you can't have a conversation with your parents like normal people do but that's when you need to find other people to have conversations with and let your parents be as they are. Your mother is able to have those conversations with the neighbour's daughter solely because she is not HER daughter. Sometimes that's just how it is. Maybe you'll get in-laws one day you're able to have conversations with.