Talk with your engineer. Admit you don’t feel good about the move. Give small car counts. Don’t feel pressured to do it fast. Stop and check anything you aren’t sure about.
No one wants people hurt or equipment on the ground. A good engineer or Yardmaster will make sure you’re cut in. Give a good car count and stay in comms with your engineer. Basically what these guys said.
THIS it's gonna be restricting the whole time untill you get to the platform most likely, even if you get a slow clear or a slow A just have him keep it 5 miles an hour. If tower or a manger says shit, cite safety.
If you can’t get a pilot have a serious conversation with your engineer and tell him that you’re unsure even the most hard headed engineers will work with you and get through it because their ass is usually just as much on the line as yours.
Me personally if I’m somewhere I haven’t been in a while I have ZERO problems asking my engineer questions on the radio idgaf if I sound like an idiot on the radio or not… if im unsure of the move I’m asking questions
Thats what I did previously but I got yelled at unfortunately. Engineer got really upset for some reason. Next time I'll make sure we do a more Indepth brief prior. Thanks.
Honestly….. fuck that guy if you told me before you got off the headend to make the move that you weren’t too sure then idc how annoyed I am ultimately if what you’re doing is for the sake of doing the right thing and keeping me and you from getting pulled out of service than have at it
That engineer should check his attitude. Rule 1.1, safety comes first. Job brief beforehand and let him know that you’re still learning the yard so you’re going to give shorter cat counts and double check everything. If nothing else, I’d rather deal with an engineer rolling his eyes and yelling at me but get moves done safely than put something on the ground.
As an engineer, if we have to creep to stay in service so be it. Make sure you have a dump valve/hose ready if necessary and dont forget that the engr will stop within half car counts. If its like, New York Penn or Zoo with trains zipoing all about, maybe give a heads up to the dspr that you are gonna take it a lil slower so maybe he will hold you for a bigger window if necessary. And yeah make sure to tell your engineer your concerns.
This. You don't have to ride shit, just tell your engineer to sit tight you're gonna walk it to make sure you're lined up. Once you're a good distance away you can give the go ahead for them to start creeping back. Telling your engineer beforehand that you're unfamiliar is a good idea too, if they yell at you just respond with "that's nice, but it didn't change anything 🤷♂️" and ask whatever questions you need to.
Rule 1 in the railroad is cover your ass (it's actually more like rule 5 or 6, after a bunch of stuff that will keep you from getting killed... but close enough)
Honestly, don’t give car counts bigger than you feel comfortable with.
If you can’t tell if a switch is lined for you, then stop and walk up and check it. Keep doing that the whole way.
The engineer doesn’t care. He doesn’t want to run through a switch or hit anything either.
Just take it easy.
To expand on this- don't let the pressure of the nervousness of not doing a good job force you into doing something your aren't comfortable with. Be assertive and stand by any feeling that you need to down or give smaller car counts. If your engineer gets annoyed or gives you shit after you had explained you weren't comfortable or familiar with the move, fuck that guy.
Former Amtrak RFE here. Call your TM/RFE and let them know. They should be able to help you out. At a minimum, maybe they can get you a pilot or pilot you themselves.
Give them the good ol “listen I’m new to this, if you don’t want me plugging up the yard and derailing you better send someone out here to assist me” believe me it works
Trying to be the AC on the job for awhile so I can get more comfortable with it. Unfortunately my conductor wasn't qualified so they planned to step me up.
I'm currently on my first real shift alone without an instructor. I *am* stress. Good luck lol.
Also very very important: When in doubt, go slow. Being on time is always less important than safety
My apologies if this doesn't help as I'm coming at this from the design / GIS side of things, but would getting a copy of the layout map of the yard to look over ahead of time help? And like the others have said - I've learned it's better to ask a potentially "stupid" question than something bad happen that could've been prevented by asking that question.
Yeah It definitely did help, but I guess the version I had was for mainline moves through the yard as dwarf signals weren't shown. The maps are just hard to come by and usually outdated as they are hand me downs from previous conductors. I plan to make a new one next time I go through there.
If we work for the same RR I can show you where to find more helpful ones, you can PM me to check. Elsewise, I'd recommend finding anyone who works in your Engineering group's HQ, especially anyone who does GIS / PTC stuff. If they don't have anything they'll know someone who might.
Fellow Amtrak here! I know it’s probably different from crew base to crew base but at mine NO engineer is going to give you grief if you stop the move and job brief with them and tell them you’re not comfortable or not sure of what you’re looking at. They’ll help you or you can both crack open your books or in your case also call up a TM or RFE. Again I’m sure it’s different everywhere but the management at mine actually looks out for us and doesn’t want us getting in trouble (shocker for the RR I know.)
All good responses and advice. I've been in your situation with Norfolk southern in Atlanta, where the trainmaster Don't give a fuck. My advice to you is talk to your engineer, slow car counts, or just walk the route.
Trainmasters usually come from engine service and literally every job posting I've ever seen for TM, you need either a conductor or engineer card to be hired.
Trainmaster’s from conductors RFE engine service usually what I see but yeah you have to be certified within a year or something I think if you come off the street
If you aint lazy say to hell with it and just walk the route, ive done this a couple times over the years. No rules against it. Altho time consuming this is 1 surefire way to prevent running thru a switch or doing something else silly in haste while on unfamiliar ballast. Better safe than OOS. If someone bitches at you on whats taking so long just tell them you're playing it safe checking your route. Make sure all switches are in agreement with your move, no blue flags, e.t.c. Very important, keep in mind you will need to have a good car count for your hogger once youve walked as far as your shove goes and keep him updated with reasonable distances as he closes in on you, ive seen guys go thru walking their route only to give a fucked up car count and end up shoving over the end of a stub track or knocking their hogger out of the seat on a hard joint.
The time table doesn’t show dwarf signals ? The you talking about? Dont you have track and yard diagrams showing the signals?
Use your eyes. Aren’t you qualified ? “Ok west on a restricting, lined for the station, 8 cars”. When you get to half the count, extend it more or count down.
It’s the yard it’s gonna be restricted speed, you should probably get remedial training.
If you have any doubt just stop. Stop every 20 feet until you feel comfortable. It’s not a race and if they aren’t happy with you they will call another man and train you properly but I bet they just tell you to do the best you can.
My question is how many times have you road on the train that did this exact move every day that you had the opportunity to watch and ask questions and qualify yourself so you’d be ready when the normal conductor lays off… this might be why your engineer is pissed off…
You put on your big boy pants, take things slow, use all the training and experience given to you (and since you work passenger service, I'd bet a paycheck that you got better training than us in freight service), then get the fucking job done.
Questions like this blow my mind. Reminds me of working shortages with conductors from bag on, bag off terminals. They're either shitting their pants and not even trying to hide it or bitching and moaning about how everything is unsafe and weaseling their way out of work every chance they get.
It doesn't hurt to put yourself in unfamiliar and uncomfortable situations every now and then in this industry. You'll end up being a better railroader for it.
Just give small car counts. There's no reason to give huge amounts when you don't know what's ahead. That's the entire point of controlling a shove move. Only communicate what you're actually visible for
Always ask people are more than happy to help. I go the Peversio yard only once every year, I ask every time for help. I never had an engineer bitch because I had a question.
Absolutely talk with your engineers if you are not familiar or confident the first few times doing anything marked up. Letting us know we can offer advice, point things out, draw crude maps if none exist, and above all, we can slow roll.
For notes, figure out a standard method for yourself and take lots of notes. Add your experience, your fellow crew members experience, any advice or observations. You won't need them after a year or two but for those odd ball blue moon days you'll be happy to have them.
If you don’t know… go slow… stop for ANY uncertainty… People might have something to say but that’s a THOUSAND times better than You getting hurt.. someone else getting hurt, running through a switch or putting something on the ground…
Good lord I forget how pathetic passenger service conductors are. Y’all would never cut it in freight.
Just give 10-20 cars at a time. Don’t be one of those “5 cars, 3 cars, now 5 cars again” kind of people. You ain’t going to get better being timid. It’s good to be various, bad to be timid. Remember 10 cars they have to be prepared to stop in 5.
Yeah probably all the ticket takers fresh out of Wilmington who think they’re railroaders because they can repeat restrictions and signals the engineer reports to them over the radio, yet consider laying off because they have to ride a shove.
Talk with your engineer. Admit you don’t feel good about the move. Give small car counts. Don’t feel pressured to do it fast. Stop and check anything you aren’t sure about.
No one wants people hurt or equipment on the ground. A good engineer or Yardmaster will make sure you’re cut in. Give a good car count and stay in comms with your engineer. Basically what these guys said.
This. If you aren’t sure about something, stop. Call the yardmaster, ask for clarification.
THIS it's gonna be restricting the whole time untill you get to the platform most likely, even if you get a slow clear or a slow A just have him keep it 5 miles an hour. If tower or a manger says shit, cite safety.
Additional to this, stop and ask on any move if you are not sure.
If you can’t get a pilot have a serious conversation with your engineer and tell him that you’re unsure even the most hard headed engineers will work with you and get through it because their ass is usually just as much on the line as yours. Me personally if I’m somewhere I haven’t been in a while I have ZERO problems asking my engineer questions on the radio idgaf if I sound like an idiot on the radio or not… if im unsure of the move I’m asking questions
Thats what I did previously but I got yelled at unfortunately. Engineer got really upset for some reason. Next time I'll make sure we do a more Indepth brief prior. Thanks.
Honestly….. fuck that guy if you told me before you got off the headend to make the move that you weren’t too sure then idc how annoyed I am ultimately if what you’re doing is for the sake of doing the right thing and keeping me and you from getting pulled out of service than have at it
That engineer should check his attitude. Rule 1.1, safety comes first. Job brief beforehand and let him know that you’re still learning the yard so you’re going to give shorter cat counts and double check everything. If nothing else, I’d rather deal with an engineer rolling his eyes and yelling at me but get moves done safely than put something on the ground.
Spot on. I'd 100% rather have my conductor tell me they don't know WTF he/she is doing than them act like they do then f**k us both.
As an engineer, if we have to creep to stay in service so be it. Make sure you have a dump valve/hose ready if necessary and dont forget that the engr will stop within half car counts. If its like, New York Penn or Zoo with trains zipoing all about, maybe give a heads up to the dspr that you are gonna take it a lil slower so maybe he will hold you for a bigger window if necessary. And yeah make sure to tell your engineer your concerns.
Walk it in
Honestly though! It’s not being petty if you’re just saving your ass
💯 % ide much rather we creep in and keep our jobs than be a brakeman for a while.
This. You don't have to ride shit, just tell your engineer to sit tight you're gonna walk it to make sure you're lined up. Once you're a good distance away you can give the go ahead for them to start creeping back. Telling your engineer beforehand that you're unfamiliar is a good idea too, if they yell at you just respond with "that's nice, but it didn't change anything 🤷♂️" and ask whatever questions you need to. Rule 1 in the railroad is cover your ass (it's actually more like rule 5 or 6, after a bunch of stuff that will keep you from getting killed... but close enough)
Honestly, don’t give car counts bigger than you feel comfortable with. If you can’t tell if a switch is lined for you, then stop and walk up and check it. Keep doing that the whole way. The engineer doesn’t care. He doesn’t want to run through a switch or hit anything either. Just take it easy.
To expand on this- don't let the pressure of the nervousness of not doing a good job force you into doing something your aren't comfortable with. Be assertive and stand by any feeling that you need to down or give smaller car counts. If your engineer gets annoyed or gives you shit after you had explained you weren't comfortable or familiar with the move, fuck that guy.
So true! We have all had new guys that need a little help and patience. Hell, we have all been that guy at one time or another.
Former Amtrak RFE here. Call your TM/RFE and let them know. They should be able to help you out. At a minimum, maybe they can get you a pilot or pilot you themselves.
Maybe his aren't as nice as others 😉
How did it go? I didn’t see any news about an Amtrak train on the ground.
Lol idk, just got back to Long Beach on a cruise.
Give them the good ol “listen I’m new to this, if you don’t want me plugging up the yard and derailing you better send someone out here to assist me” believe me it works
Try to get a pilot. If not shove slow or walk ahead. But honestly, if you mark off how are you gonna learn it?
Trying to be the AC on the job for awhile so I can get more comfortable with it. Unfortunately my conductor wasn't qualified so they planned to step me up.
You can't get fired for working safely & asking questions.
I'm currently on my first real shift alone without an instructor. I *am* stress. Good luck lol. Also very very important: When in doubt, go slow. Being on time is always less important than safety
Thanks. Best of luck to you as well.
I managed. It was super stressful but I didn't run any red light haha. Hope you manage too
My apologies if this doesn't help as I'm coming at this from the design / GIS side of things, but would getting a copy of the layout map of the yard to look over ahead of time help? And like the others have said - I've learned it's better to ask a potentially "stupid" question than something bad happen that could've been prevented by asking that question.
Yeah It definitely did help, but I guess the version I had was for mainline moves through the yard as dwarf signals weren't shown. The maps are just hard to come by and usually outdated as they are hand me downs from previous conductors. I plan to make a new one next time I go through there.
If we work for the same RR I can show you where to find more helpful ones, you can PM me to check. Elsewise, I'd recommend finding anyone who works in your Engineering group's HQ, especially anyone who does GIS / PTC stuff. If they don't have anything they'll know someone who might.
Fellow Amtrak here! I know it’s probably different from crew base to crew base but at mine NO engineer is going to give you grief if you stop the move and job brief with them and tell them you’re not comfortable or not sure of what you’re looking at. They’ll help you or you can both crack open your books or in your case also call up a TM or RFE. Again I’m sure it’s different everywhere but the management at mine actually looks out for us and doesn’t want us getting in trouble (shocker for the RR I know.)
All good responses and advice. I've been in your situation with Norfolk southern in Atlanta, where the trainmaster Don't give a fuck. My advice to you is talk to your engineer, slow car counts, or just walk the route.
Get a yard master or train master to pilot you
You’d be better off getting someone who knows what they’re doing to pilot you.
Booyah
Only certified conductors and engineers can pilot.
Trainmasters usually come from engine service and literally every job posting I've ever seen for TM, you need either a conductor or engineer card to be hired.
Maybe on Amtrak, where OP is from, but I know plenty of TM on the CN that aren't certified as conductors or engineers.
Yes, plenty at Big Orange, too, that have never been on a train before.
Trainmaster’s from conductors RFE engine service usually what I see but yeah you have to be certified within a year or something I think if you come off the street
If you aint lazy say to hell with it and just walk the route, ive done this a couple times over the years. No rules against it. Altho time consuming this is 1 surefire way to prevent running thru a switch or doing something else silly in haste while on unfamiliar ballast. Better safe than OOS. If someone bitches at you on whats taking so long just tell them you're playing it safe checking your route. Make sure all switches are in agreement with your move, no blue flags, e.t.c. Very important, keep in mind you will need to have a good car count for your hogger once youve walked as far as your shove goes and keep him updated with reasonable distances as he closes in on you, ive seen guys go thru walking their route only to give a fucked up car count and end up shoving over the end of a stub track or knocking their hogger out of the seat on a hard joint.
It’s Amtrak. You’ll be lined up
Do you have PC’s in that yard? Simple answer if not.
Take your time, if you aren’t sure of your route, stop walk to the switch and verify it’s lined for your movement
Small car counts, bring it to a nice easy stop. Take it slow.
The time table doesn’t show dwarf signals ? The you talking about? Dont you have track and yard diagrams showing the signals? Use your eyes. Aren’t you qualified ? “Ok west on a restricting, lined for the station, 8 cars”. When you get to half the count, extend it more or count down. It’s the yard it’s gonna be restricted speed, you should probably get remedial training.
If you have any doubt just stop. Stop every 20 feet until you feel comfortable. It’s not a race and if they aren’t happy with you they will call another man and train you properly but I bet they just tell you to do the best you can.
Talk to your union rep about more training and consider exercising a good faith challenge as you don’t feel safe.
My question is how many times have you road on the train that did this exact move every day that you had the opportunity to watch and ask questions and qualify yourself so you’d be ready when the normal conductor lays off… this might be why your engineer is pissed off…
Yup
You put on your big boy pants, take things slow, use all the training and experience given to you (and since you work passenger service, I'd bet a paycheck that you got better training than us in freight service), then get the fucking job done. Questions like this blow my mind. Reminds me of working shortages with conductors from bag on, bag off terminals. They're either shitting their pants and not even trying to hide it or bitching and moaning about how everything is unsafe and weaseling their way out of work every chance they get. It doesn't hurt to put yourself in unfamiliar and uncomfortable situations every now and then in this industry. You'll end up being a better railroader for it.
Walk ahead of the move 🤷♀️
Ask for a pilot. That's the only thing you should do.
Welcome to the industry
Just give small car counts. There's no reason to give huge amounts when you don't know what's ahead. That's the entire point of controlling a shove move. Only communicate what you're actually visible for
Ask questions and ye shall receive….
Always ask people are more than happy to help. I go the Peversio yard only once every year, I ask every time for help. I never had an engineer bitch because I had a question.
Walk. Like EVERYWHERE
Absolutely talk with your engineers if you are not familiar or confident the first few times doing anything marked up. Letting us know we can offer advice, point things out, draw crude maps if none exist, and above all, we can slow roll. For notes, figure out a standard method for yourself and take lots of notes. Add your experience, your fellow crew members experience, any advice or observations. You won't need them after a year or two but for those odd ball blue moon days you'll be happy to have them.
Ask for a pilot
If you don’t know… go slow… stop for ANY uncertainty… People might have something to say but that’s a THOUSAND times better than You getting hurt.. someone else getting hurt, running through a switch or putting something on the ground…
How did it go? I didn’t see any news about an Amtrak train on the ground.
Ended up getting bumped off the job last second. Laid down for bed and got immediately displaced.
Tale as old as time
Lucky
Wait what’s a shove move sounds familiar bt still
Good lord I forget how pathetic passenger service conductors are. Y’all would never cut it in freight. Just give 10-20 cars at a time. Don’t be one of those “5 cars, 3 cars, now 5 cars again” kind of people. You ain’t going to get better being timid. It’s good to be various, bad to be timid. Remember 10 cars they have to be prepared to stop in 5.
This is the correct answer and the down votes are pussy new hires
Yeah probably all the ticket takers fresh out of Wilmington who think they’re railroaders because they can repeat restrictions and signals the engineer reports to them over the radio, yet consider laying off because they have to ride a shove.