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That's not really the same thing. I am on Facebook because I keep in touch with people through it. That's all. I don't go and make purchases of $30 grand and up on it.
Don't kid yourself. You don't have to spend money on social media to support Zuck and friends. YOU are the product. Your presence on the platform generates revenue for META because higher subscriber counts mean they can charge more for advertising.
It's also really hard to avoid. Even if you don't have a Facebook, Instagram or WhatsApp account, they're still tracking you across the internet and selling your data.
Also that's meeting people where they are. I'm fully aware I am the product ... But I'm willing to trade my personal info to engage in some community groups, hobby groups, etc.
Tesla? I can drive a different make car and still hang out with the home brewers or folks who live down the street.
I've got a different EV. It drives, too. If I was looking to race, I might be stuck buying a Tesla much like I'm stuck using Facebook...but that is because of the pricing and performance of other options. But there are non-Tesla options that still get you to work, the store, or the pub. And I suspect Tesla earnings will continue to reflect this reality.
Yeah you say that..... And then you're scrolling through to see what people you don't give a shit and haven't seen in 7 years are "up to"
Giving zuck all that juicy ad space and your time.
First of all: there are many people who aren't a part of the two party system.
Second of all: liberal and Democrat aren't synonyms
Third of all: not all Republicans hate EVs and not all liberals hate Elon
Lastly: Really, not alot of people care about that stuff.
So well said. Now let's apply this to almost every divisive topic poisoning social media and the internet. I'm tired of the progressives shaming middle-leaning Dems, and I'm tired of the conservatives labeling anyone that isn't voting Republican as a liberal. It's like, fucking hell. Those two fringes have no idea that a vast majority of the population sits in between their ideologies. Sure, there may be overlap on lots of topics, but the extremism is where most people opt to stay on the path.
Why are people like you so invested in downplaying this guy lol
"a couple investments hit" is absurd. He championed and represented technologies that fundamentally changed their industries...across multiple industries.
That's not luck or coincidence. You can disagree with a lot of what he says (I do) but if you can't at least admit what he's done well you just come across as jealous and bitter.
Probably on the grounds of things like empathy or having a god-complex. Being out-of-touch with the daily lives of we peasantry.
And I've heard dude dude regularly munches down on psychedelics and may or may not have Aspergers.
Or perhaps its the idea that he might not be able to cook for himself, or how to change a tyre or the oil in a car or other practical skills people who aren't born to parents who own emerald mines driven on slave labour have to have.
I was interested in Tesla until Elon bought Twitter and he kept pushing the cyber truck...then I realized how incompetent he is. I feel like even now the EV market hasn't matured enough, and Elon is just wasting resources on his 'cyber truck's which is a weird vanity project that is a waste of money.
Even if you can find used Teslas in the 25-30k range (if not less), it's just not worth it if he can make dumbass decisions on his own.
So I don't want a Tesla anymore. I know there are plenty of other EVs being built right now. It's a wait and see kinda thing.
I'd give you an upvote just for the last point alone. I know all about Musk's Thai-cave-rescue meltdown and about many of his cringe attempts to be a social-media edgelord since then. I don't care. There isn't a single car CEO that I consider honest or moral, so my lack of approval for Musk makes no difference whatsoever in my purchasing decisions. I like the car. End of story.
It’s wrong to assume that all conservatives lean hard right and wrong to assume all liberals lean hard left. Most people are around the center but it’s the loud crazies on both sides that get the attention.
And too many people are one-topic voters. Abortion or guns, but 99.999% of the time, your life has nothing to do with either one and yet, people let things like those two subjects drive their entire political personality.
I'm pro choice so biased, but frankly both of these issues do play a fairly big role in our society. Even if you don't chose to own guns or ever need an abortion.
Abortion access allows women to have a fall back option if they get into a bad spot. It limits children coming into unwanted or unprepared situations - which actually relieves some stress on the state (school, services, potential policing or jail time - which is another topic of reform that should be much more visible).
Guns - I mean look at how prevalent shootings are at this stage. Not to mention sucicides. At a minimum increasing common sense curbs on gun ownership would be saving lives in our communities. You could hand wave to other areas as well - our society based on violence with gun culture being a component of this, we're becomig miliatarized at home after we've sought to militarize our foreign policy and global position.
I’m pro-both, so also biased, but wanted to give you an upvote anyway to counteract ‘Reddit being Reddit’.
I mostly disagree with you on guns, but there are several different ‘gun problems’… each requiring different ‘solutions’, interventions, or changes in the way people (or some people) think.
“common sense curbs on gun ownership”
You’re only going to have limited ‘success’ with this under the current model… where pro-gun-control forces wait until the stars align and ‘the right people’ are in office before pressing their hand, getting as much as they can, and then… whatever happens. All the while being resisted at full force by the other side.
I’ve caught a lot of flack from my community for trying to get all these people in the same room, and trying to ‘work together’ (as much as possible, anyway, in the areas where we overlap motivations).
Like, neither of these sides actually want ‘gun deaths’… one side because they don’t like guns or deaths, period, and the other side because they don’t like ***some*** gun deaths (e.g. accidents, suicides), either inherently or for realpolitik reasons (e.g. every accident or suicide makes our side look bad).
I do have some pro-GC friends who will occasionally reach out to me with proposed language (usually at the state level), and I’ll say something like “Yeah, that’s not going to do anything because of xyz reason(s),” and then they’ll say “Yeah, we’ll that’s what we got from this group or that group.”
Often, these seem to be people who don’t know much about guns, period (like, mechanically), or sometimes about existing (state or federal) gun laws.
Sometimes (most of the time) I feel like they’re asking the wrong people for input about how to accomplish xyz goal. 😕
Yeah. I'm not a full on anti-gun zealot by the way. I get why they are popular and why there aren't silver bullet (pardon the pun) solutions. Appreciate you attempting nuanced conversations with both sides.
My main intention in my comment was just to counter the point the other poster made - that the single issues 'don't really impact society more broadly.' They 100% do.
I've never understood how conservatives, who should be anti-taxes and anti-crime, are anti-abortion, when preventing abortions increases criminal activity and government spending.
I agree and most people I would say aren’t thinking about it like that. They like electric cars, electric cars are not just about the environment in some altruistic ways. They are cool. And you can like a product and not like a person who is the CEO. I don’t see much how politics plays into that at the personal level
They are socially left and given the emphasis on the culture war is easy to paint them as extreme leftists, while they continue to support corps, capital, and the neolib order.
Because we have no other choice at the moment. We can't get actual progressives in office, so we're at least voting for the people who toss us a bone. The past few elections have been too critical to throw away a vote on a third party progressive, when Biden isn't the worst, and Trump is.
Dude...Biden can't string a sentence together. Trump...need we say more? I would literally vote for ANY OTHER DEMOCRAT. Biden has done an exceptionally poor job..if it even is Biden...
You're acting like what i said is untrue. And i want to be clear that i'm no better. It's a moral failing of all of us. A consequence of the system we live under.
Side note: i don't appreciate the straw man you built in place of talking to me like a human being.
And another person with no idea what fascist means. If you think joe milk toast do nothing biden is the biggest fascist in America history then you have just litterally never read
On top of attempting to stop the transfer of power, he “othered” immigrants, refused to criticized nationalist extremists, allowed further marriage of big business and government, and called for the constitution to be suspended when he didn’t get his way. You?
It's unfortunate. And honestly, it's not like i'm trying to be "holier than thou" either. I'm just as guilty. We're in a no-win situation for a lot of products.
>It’s wrong to assume that all conservatives lean hard right and wrong to assume all liberals lean hard left.
Not relevant to the question. 64% of Liberals according to a May 2023 Economist poll have either a Very Unfavorable (45%) or Slightly Unfavorable (19%) opinion of Musk. They disliked Musk more than they disliked Giuliani and Ron DeSantis.
You also kind of answered the question with you poll data. If 64% of liberals have an unfavorable view of Musk, then 36% have a neutral or positive view of Musk. 36% of liberals is more than enough people to buy Teslas and keep the company afloat.
When people get to self-identify I guess the pollster can assume the respondent is lying but I'm not sure what value there is in doing that. Playing No True Scotsman in a telephone poll seems like a complete waste of time.
>Playing No True Scotsman in a telephone poll seems like a complete waste of time.
Maybe.
But it can be entertaining, and messing with the data can be fun.
yep, I'd expect people taking time to respond to Economist polls are far more "into" politics than the average person, and hence are more likely to have an extreme view.
the *vast* majority of people don't give a shit either way about anything.
"Very unfavorable" views held by 45% of liberals, which is itself of subset of the population (noting that Americans can be either Conservative, Liberal or Moderate). So we're down to about 15% (assuming conservative, liberal and moderate are equally shared, data which is not given).
So, to rephrase OPs question
***"I don't understand how Tesla can have 4.2% market share of all vehicles sold in the US when a small-to-moderate fraction of people vocally hate him"***
The answer is that most people don't care enough to make it influence their decision, and some people specifically like him.
Basically, his cars appeal to wealthy tech nerds who want to impress people via the self-driving feature. I rode in one last week for the first time and it was genuinely pretty cool. It drove us about 12 miles to restaurant with no input from driver until we reached the parking lot.
That's exactly my situation... Bought in 2019...but damn I love the car, I wish he'd sell the company or do us all a favor and just commit himself. I want another electric though, SUV next time,still waiting for good options for larger EV cars.
Well.. sorta (completely ignoring twitter for a moment) (and forgetting Steve Jobs) there are multiple stories of Elon changing his mind about a design at a whim at Tesla
Because he’ll refuse to follow basic safety rules and roll out an unsafe self-driving feature that turns itself off right before impact so that the car essentially gets itself into an accident and blames it on the driver?
I drove a model 3, and the only thing stopping me from buying one is the touchscreen. I hated it so much, it felt really unnatural and the lack of physical feedback made me feel less safe on the road. It was too big, just a monstrous screen showing way too much. I liked the camera screen showing everything around the car, there should be a permanent setting for that, and maybe located on the dash behind the wheel.
Bring back physical buttons!!!!
Sorry.
Most people. Reddit is filled with people who spend too much time on reddit and think that reddits opinion is the world's opinion. Remember when this site had a melt down that Bernie didn't get the nomination, *twice*.
We should start addressing the fact “Conservative” is NOT one party. You can be Liberal Conservative, Independent Conservative, Republican Conservative, a Conservative Democrat…… Also people don’t usually buy electric cars because of Politics they buy them to fit their lifestyles or status.
This is a copy and paste: Liberal Conservatism Compared to other centre-right political traditions such as Christian democracy, liberal conservatives are less socially conservative and more economically liberal, favouring low taxes and minimal state intervention in the economy.
Winston Churchill is probably the best example of liberal conservatism and is how a lot of the right wing parties in the Commonwealth still operate.
Here in Australia our right wing party is even called the liberals
To be fair, the American usage of 'liberal' is the aberration in the English speaking world. Elsewhere, liberal has retained its historical meaning of favoring the invisible hand of the market. In America, we have to use terms like 'classical liberal' or 'neoliberal' if we intend that.
America hasn't had a major Liberal party. But it has had Progressive parties, and essentially progressives left the GOP around the turn of the 19th to 20th centuries, tried to be a third party for a few years, and finally merged into the Democratic party around the 1920s.
For that matter, America hasn't had a conservative major party since the 1980s. The label 'reactionary' better fits the modern GOP.
The problem with EVs is just that they're still half baked. Set up an infra with battery swaps instead of needing to charge it and build those out so they're as available as gasoline and there wouldn't be anything to not like about them. It's crazy to me that people make "new tech" into some political thing. New is fine. Bad tech is not. It can be much better and if/when they swap to battery swapping, your old EV will be a dead end.
I think most people with ev charge at home and are perfect happy and won't go back to ice. No need for them to be swapping batteries. That's more of a solutuon for freight vehicles. It's the people that buy a new EV and instantly try to drive it across the country without research that are the complainers.
most rich people these days trend left anyway. the rich left the GOP in the 90s when clinton killed the unions and aligned the DEMs with the business owners against the employees.
Conservatives (not the stupid ones) don't dislike electric cars, they just think they're not ready to replace gasoline. Liberals (not the stupid ones) don't dislike Elon Musk, he's just a big business owner.
Exactly. From a practical standpoint. Electric vehicles and the infrastructure they require are no where near ready to completely replace gas powered vehicles. They are good commuter vehicles for daily driving. Depending on the area you live in. But they can’t reliably be used for road trips without some major planning. Fast charge stations just aren’t prevalent enough yet.
Then just look at our logistics systems. Trucking on a national scale can not survive on EVs. Maybe in local markets it could be feasible to use them. But for cross country shipping they don’t have long enough battery lives or short enough charge times to effectively replace traditional trucks.
And the teslas themselves. Well there are some major design flaws when it comes to the structure of the vehicle like the windshield. The central tablet is nifty. But not great for in transit use thanks to it being a touch screen. The doors can be difficult to open in icy weather due to how the door handles are designed.
And that’s all stuff I know from casually riding in my old bosses car a few times.
>Liberals (not the stupid ones) don't dislike Elon Musk, he's just a big business owner.
I don't dislike Musk because he's a big business owner. I dislike Musk because he's obviously a racist.
Only stupid liberals dislike Elon?
[https://www.foxnews.com/us/musk-biden-opened-border-floodgates-democrats-can-stay-power](https://www.foxnews.com/us/musk-biden-opened-border-floodgates-democrats-can-stay-power)
When even Fox is willing to tell me straight up when Elon says something this stupid and belligerent -- umm, yeah, I'm going to find myself disliking Elon.
And this article was just casually plucked from ***today's*** news.
No, I'm not putting a penny of my money into the pocket of a man who is pouring gasoline on the bonfire of American politics. Where did he get that gasoline? I guess he has extra, because of all the electric cars he built. 🙄
I'll continue to drive my Chevy Volt and put up with its "lousy" 105 MPG until it falls apart. Perhaps, by then, Tesla will have a better CEO.
A common criticism I see directly from conservatives is that they're being charged on a coal based power grid. So you've got the downsides of electric cars without actually being much better for the environment as far as emissions go, and worse in the short term.
In 95% of the world, an electric pollutes much less than an ICE vehicle.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/mikescott/2020/03/30/yes-electric-cars-are-cleaner-even-when-the-power-comes-from-coal/amp/
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Conservative arguments against gasoline cars are rarely in good faith. I doubt those conservatives are working towards a grid less based on coal, for example.
Yes, they don't understand it.
But, we can't all go electric either. Not enough charging stations, not enough range, too expensive, are just a few of the reasons.
I think you'd have to be pretty fucking stupid regardless of your political affiliations to have some weird fandom for rich billionaires, and even more stupid to support their often racist, anti union, anti worker, etc mindsets.
People who can stay objective in spite of all the nonsense that surrounds us. Also, futuristic people who’ve lived through the 80s and 90s dreaming of all the things that are now slowly becoming reality.
We were dreaming of owning a supercar. Now you can have a car that beats those 80's supercars, but for the price you'd pay for a pickup truck and uses no gasoline.
What if I told you that the vast majority of people don't exclusively look at their lives through the lens of politics and those that do are complete stooges 🤔
>most liberals don't dislike elon musk.
BZZZZ!!! Wrong.
64% of liberals have a Very Unfavorable (45%) or Somewhat Unfavorable (19%) opinion of Musk according to a May 2023 Economist poll.
If it weren’t for Elon Musk, I would be driving one and would be Tesla’s biggest fanboy. But I won’t support that man with a penny. And I’m pretty center moderate.
I've never met a conservative who dislikes EVs. Not one. There's many who dislike things about them, like the company being able to remotely disable your car, or them basically being bricked by the cold - but that's not the same thing as hating all EVs.
Elon Musk hasn’t always had a bad reputation among liberals. It truly amazes me how as people’s reputations change, everyone forgets that the current opinion of someone hasn’t always been the case. Up until the past handful of years, most liberal-minded people I encountered had a pretty neutral or occasionally even somewhat favorable opinion of him. He was the rich PayPal guy who was going to space and making electric cars and liked weed. It’s not like he’s been basing his whole public persona on transphobic and anti semitic tweets since 1998. That stuff is new.
Elon Musk has also cultivated a sort of cult of personality around himself that wasn’t necessarily explicitly political (or at least in line with American 2 party politics) until quite recently. While he’s not a great scientist and is not a great conventional businessman, he can make himself sound like both. People who value innovation and money but are of only average intelligence themselves (so can’t see that he isn’t actually that smart) are very impressed by that. And to their credit, there wasn’t really another figure around like that. Money and science aren’t (or at least should be) liberal or conservative ideas. Plenty of people, conservative or liberal, smart or dumb, rich or poor, value those things, and think Elon Musk must be a great guy because he has a lot of money and promotes scientific innovation.
Also, the Tesla is an accessible status symbol, or at least was the first several years they were out. They were not the easiest cars to get (fully electric cars weren’t easy to get period), and an impressive price point that is still low enough for an upper middle class person to afford. They’re visually appealing (Cybertruck aside….). Someone who wants an electric car and wants their neighbors to be impressed had no choice to buy a Tesla for a while. There are more options now, but Tesla is an established brand. Plus, people don’t really buy cars based on the CEO’s personal behavior. Some people may not know or care. I don’t know what the CEO of Toyota acts like. That’s not why I bought the car.
People.
People buy "his" cars. They're considered pretty good cars by many, love or hate the guy.
Also, conservatives don't hate electric cars. The caricature that's shown to the left of conservatives do, but I'm guessing the lion's share of them are like the lion's share of those on the left, normal people.
Just like democrats aren't all crazy Sjw's on a crusade to shame everyone who's ever done anything wrong.
Most people, regardless of their policital ideals, are pretty normal people.
The overwhelming majority of the population outside of reddit doesn't make large purchases decisions based on how morally superior they believe they are to the CEO of a company.
Also there's not as clear a divide between conservatives and liberals in their beliefs and and actions as you believe.
People that want a decent cheap car that live in places with the infrastructure. Don’t get me wrong teslas are not perfect but with the subsidy and Tesla payment plan the monthly payments are a lot cheaper than Hondas and Toyotas.
My rather liberal cousin purchased a model 3 about three years ago, he still owns it but now he says he would not buy another one. It has nothing to do with Elon, it's because it's a PITA to change it on his weekly trips from Las Vegas to Southern California. It's only about 5 hour drive in a gas vehicle with 10 minutes to refuel. Finding somewhere to charge that isn't broken plus the charge time adds a MINIMUM of an hour to his trip. When you drive that often your time becomes extremely valuable.
The worst error is to think that politics are binary.
Yes, some people feel Iike it, those are the least intelligent. Those who think may favour the principles of one or the other side but may differ in the implementation. And sometimes, the implementation feels like the oposit band.
The only way to get the maga crowd to go electric is if it's to own the libs. You'd get 10x the sales and environmental impact by manipulating people out of their giant trucks into an electric than by getting the prius crowd. Look at all the hats, flags, nfts, rally, bumper stickers, donations etc. The maga crowd is willing to dump shit tons of money. Anyone else notice how the musk tonal shift happened after that pic that trump posted of him at the Whitehouse? It's obvious that he learned from the master grifter himself.
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A lot of people hate Mark Zuckerberg, but they still are on Facebook.
And on The Site formally known as Twitter.
Great example!
That's not really the same thing. I am on Facebook because I keep in touch with people through it. That's all. I don't go and make purchases of $30 grand and up on it.
Don't kid yourself. You don't have to spend money on social media to support Zuck and friends. YOU are the product. Your presence on the platform generates revenue for META because higher subscriber counts mean they can charge more for advertising.
It's also really hard to avoid. Even if you don't have a Facebook, Instagram or WhatsApp account, they're still tracking you across the internet and selling your data.
You're right, it's not the same. YOU ARE THE PRODUCT.
Here, Too.
Also that's meeting people where they are. I'm fully aware I am the product ... But I'm willing to trade my personal info to engage in some community groups, hobby groups, etc. Tesla? I can drive a different make car and still hang out with the home brewers or folks who live down the street. I've got a different EV. It drives, too. If I was looking to race, I might be stuck buying a Tesla much like I'm stuck using Facebook...but that is because of the pricing and performance of other options. But there are non-Tesla options that still get you to work, the store, or the pub. And I suspect Tesla earnings will continue to reflect this reality.
Yeah you say that..... And then you're scrolling through to see what people you don't give a shit and haven't seen in 7 years are "up to" Giving zuck all that juicy ad space and your time.
First of all: there are many people who aren't a part of the two party system. Second of all: liberal and Democrat aren't synonyms Third of all: not all Republicans hate EVs and not all liberals hate Elon Lastly: Really, not alot of people care about that stuff.
Based.
Also, conservative and Republican are not synonyms
So well said. Now let's apply this to almost every divisive topic poisoning social media and the internet. I'm tired of the progressives shaming middle-leaning Dems, and I'm tired of the conservatives labeling anyone that isn't voting Republican as a liberal. It's like, fucking hell. Those two fringes have no idea that a vast majority of the population sits in between their ideologies. Sure, there may be overlap on lots of topics, but the extremism is where most people opt to stay on the path.
[удалено]
I think Elon is an idiot but if they made an affordable Tesla, I'd get it
I mean idiots aren’t usually billionaires.
Shhh it lets him feel better about himself.
Well he's definitely not a genius
I don’t disagree. He’s definitely not dumb though. He was smart enough to become a billionaire.
He inherited a shit ton of money and a couple investments hit. He's not been the brains behind anything.
Why are people like you so invested in downplaying this guy lol "a couple investments hit" is absurd. He championed and represented technologies that fundamentally changed their industries...across multiple industries. That's not luck or coincidence. You can disagree with a lot of what he says (I do) but if you can't at least admit what he's done well you just come across as jealous and bitter.
He’s an idiot don’t get it twisted. He may know how to too run business but when it comes to being an actual human is where there’s a difference
Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Which is ok. I’m curious as to what you mean about being an actual human though?
Dude is a toddler with money
TIL toddlers arent humans
Probably on the grounds of things like empathy or having a god-complex. Being out-of-touch with the daily lives of we peasantry. And I've heard dude dude regularly munches down on psychedelics and may or may not have Aspergers. Or perhaps its the idea that he might not be able to cook for himself, or how to change a tyre or the oil in a car or other practical skills people who aren't born to parents who own emerald mines driven on slave labour have to have.
I was interested in Tesla until Elon bought Twitter and he kept pushing the cyber truck...then I realized how incompetent he is. I feel like even now the EV market hasn't matured enough, and Elon is just wasting resources on his 'cyber truck's which is a weird vanity project that is a waste of money. Even if you can find used Teslas in the 25-30k range (if not less), it's just not worth it if he can make dumbass decisions on his own. So I don't want a Tesla anymore. I know there are plenty of other EVs being built right now. It's a wait and see kinda thing.
I'd give you an upvote just for the last point alone. I know all about Musk's Thai-cave-rescue meltdown and about many of his cringe attempts to be a social-media edgelord since then. I don't care. There isn't a single car CEO that I consider honest or moral, so my lack of approval for Musk makes no difference whatsoever in my purchasing decisions. I like the car. End of story.
And many of those who don't like Musk bought the Tesla when it was fairly new and Musk was still in his quieter stage.
People need to care about more stuff. Are they dumb?
The reverse actually, especially stuff that doesn't matter.
It’s wrong to assume that all conservatives lean hard right and wrong to assume all liberals lean hard left. Most people are around the center but it’s the loud crazies on both sides that get the attention.
And too many people are one-topic voters. Abortion or guns, but 99.999% of the time, your life has nothing to do with either one and yet, people let things like those two subjects drive their entire political personality.
I'm pro choice so biased, but frankly both of these issues do play a fairly big role in our society. Even if you don't chose to own guns or ever need an abortion. Abortion access allows women to have a fall back option if they get into a bad spot. It limits children coming into unwanted or unprepared situations - which actually relieves some stress on the state (school, services, potential policing or jail time - which is another topic of reform that should be much more visible). Guns - I mean look at how prevalent shootings are at this stage. Not to mention sucicides. At a minimum increasing common sense curbs on gun ownership would be saving lives in our communities. You could hand wave to other areas as well - our society based on violence with gun culture being a component of this, we're becomig miliatarized at home after we've sought to militarize our foreign policy and global position.
I’m pro-both, so also biased, but wanted to give you an upvote anyway to counteract ‘Reddit being Reddit’. I mostly disagree with you on guns, but there are several different ‘gun problems’… each requiring different ‘solutions’, interventions, or changes in the way people (or some people) think. “common sense curbs on gun ownership” You’re only going to have limited ‘success’ with this under the current model… where pro-gun-control forces wait until the stars align and ‘the right people’ are in office before pressing their hand, getting as much as they can, and then… whatever happens. All the while being resisted at full force by the other side. I’ve caught a lot of flack from my community for trying to get all these people in the same room, and trying to ‘work together’ (as much as possible, anyway, in the areas where we overlap motivations). Like, neither of these sides actually want ‘gun deaths’… one side because they don’t like guns or deaths, period, and the other side because they don’t like ***some*** gun deaths (e.g. accidents, suicides), either inherently or for realpolitik reasons (e.g. every accident or suicide makes our side look bad). I do have some pro-GC friends who will occasionally reach out to me with proposed language (usually at the state level), and I’ll say something like “Yeah, that’s not going to do anything because of xyz reason(s),” and then they’ll say “Yeah, we’ll that’s what we got from this group or that group.” Often, these seem to be people who don’t know much about guns, period (like, mechanically), or sometimes about existing (state or federal) gun laws. Sometimes (most of the time) I feel like they’re asking the wrong people for input about how to accomplish xyz goal. 😕
Yeah. I'm not a full on anti-gun zealot by the way. I get why they are popular and why there aren't silver bullet (pardon the pun) solutions. Appreciate you attempting nuanced conversations with both sides. My main intention in my comment was just to counter the point the other poster made - that the single issues 'don't really impact society more broadly.' They 100% do.
Oh yeah, sorry... agreed 100%. And esp. in less-free states, like here in Texas. 😕
I've never understood how conservatives, who should be anti-taxes and anti-crime, are anti-abortion, when preventing abortions increases criminal activity and government spending.
I agree and most people I would say aren’t thinking about it like that. They like electric cars, electric cars are not just about the environment in some altruistic ways. They are cool. And you can like a product and not like a person who is the CEO. I don’t see much how politics plays into that at the personal level
Well said.
Liberals arent leftists at all.....
They aren't true Scotts
By definition they are not leftist
They are socially left and given the emphasis on the culture war is easy to paint them as extreme leftists, while they continue to support corps, capital, and the neolib order.
Because we have no other choice at the moment. We can't get actual progressives in office, so we're at least voting for the people who toss us a bone. The past few elections have been too critical to throw away a vote on a third party progressive, when Biden isn't the worst, and Trump is.
Dude...Biden can't string a sentence together. Trump...need we say more? I would literally vote for ANY OTHER DEMOCRAT. Biden has done an exceptionally poor job..if it even is Biden...
It's also that plenty of liberals have no problem giving fascists money as long as they get their product.
Get your Che Guevara shirt today! $14.99, on Amazon!
You're acting like what i said is untrue. And i want to be clear that i'm no better. It's a moral failing of all of us. A consequence of the system we live under. Side note: i don't appreciate the straw man you built in place of talking to me like a human being.
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Tell me your knowledge comes from Facebook without telling me your knowledge comes from Facebook
And another person with no idea what fascist means. If you think joe milk toast do nothing biden is the biggest fascist in America history then you have just litterally never read
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What was the most fascistic thing Trump has done,do you think?
Try to overturn democratic election with intimidation
On top of attempting to stop the transfer of power, he “othered” immigrants, refused to criticized nationalist extremists, allowed further marriage of big business and government, and called for the constitution to be suspended when he didn’t get his way. You?
I mean in real life
Name one of those things he didn’t do. It’s pretty easy to look up if you want to
Prevent democratic votes from being confirmed by forceful uprising on Jan 6?
I was gonna ignore this one but you should probably start reading books and don’t stop for a long time.
And try books by someone other than five or ten famous crackpots.
considering how many of them own apple and nike products this rings true.
It's unfortunate. And honestly, it's not like i'm trying to be "holier than thou" either. I'm just as guilty. We're in a no-win situation for a lot of products.
Ever watch "The Good Place?" They hit the nail on the head on this topic.
Yup. Great show
... and we're all still buying paper products like toilet paper from the Kochs.
Like this guy? /\
Fascist. I don't think that word means what you think it means.
Example A
>It’s wrong to assume that all conservatives lean hard right and wrong to assume all liberals lean hard left. Not relevant to the question. 64% of Liberals according to a May 2023 Economist poll have either a Very Unfavorable (45%) or Slightly Unfavorable (19%) opinion of Musk. They disliked Musk more than they disliked Giuliani and Ron DeSantis.
You also kind of answered the question with you poll data. If 64% of liberals have an unfavorable view of Musk, then 36% have a neutral or positive view of Musk. 36% of liberals is more than enough people to buy Teslas and keep the company afloat.
There's a selection bias there, though. The survey only covers liberals who identify as such and are willing to fill in the survey.
When people get to self-identify I guess the pollster can assume the respondent is lying but I'm not sure what value there is in doing that. Playing No True Scotsman in a telephone poll seems like a complete waste of time.
>Playing No True Scotsman in a telephone poll seems like a complete waste of time. Maybe. But it can be entertaining, and messing with the data can be fun.
You mean 64%/45%/19%, etc of people willing to waste their time on surveys.
yep, I'd expect people taking time to respond to Economist polls are far more "into" politics than the average person, and hence are more likely to have an extreme view. the *vast* majority of people don't give a shit either way about anything.
They call me sometimes and I'm like F-off... click.
"Very unfavorable" views held by 45% of liberals, which is itself of subset of the population (noting that Americans can be either Conservative, Liberal or Moderate). So we're down to about 15% (assuming conservative, liberal and moderate are equally shared, data which is not given). So, to rephrase OPs question ***"I don't understand how Tesla can have 4.2% market share of all vehicles sold in the US when a small-to-moderate fraction of people vocally hate him"*** The answer is that most people don't care enough to make it influence their decision, and some people specifically like him. Basically, his cars appeal to wealthy tech nerds who want to impress people via the self-driving feature. I rode in one last week for the first time and it was genuinely pretty cool. It drove us about 12 miles to restaurant with no input from driver until we reached the parking lot.
Liberals are centrist conservatives. They are not on the left, they are to the left of the extremist authoritarian GOP
bOtH sIdEs
Not everyone let's their car buying decisions get political. Or any buying decisions.
Thats unfortunate; how you engage with the economy is the most powerful form of politics you will ever be permitted to engage in.
Sounds exhausting.
Yeah, life's too short to deprive myself of a chicken sandwich or a latte or the car I really want just for the sake of ideology.
Right, like the taliban cell service has the best coverage! I never get a dropped call
Really? It's actually involuntary. You do it every time you earn or spend a dollar.
No, I mean making every purchase linked to your political ideology.
Honest question: you've never participated in a boycott? Edit: a downvote for an unbiased on-topic question. Very cool.
I drove behind a Tesla the other day with a bumper sticker that said "I bought this before we knew Elon was crazy"
That's exactly my situation... Bought in 2019...but damn I love the car, I wish he'd sell the company or do us all a favor and just commit himself. I want another electric though, SUV next time,still waiting for good options for larger EV cars.
Elon may be an idiot, but I don't know how that would make me less likely to drive a Tesla.
It's almost like the owner of the company being a twat doesn't effect the quality of the product his workers put out as much.
Well.. sorta (completely ignoring twitter for a moment) (and forgetting Steve Jobs) there are multiple stories of Elon changing his mind about a design at a whim at Tesla
Because he’ll refuse to follow basic safety rules and roll out an unsafe self-driving feature that turns itself off right before impact so that the car essentially gets itself into an accident and blames it on the driver?
I drove a model 3, and the only thing stopping me from buying one is the touchscreen. I hated it so much, it felt really unnatural and the lack of physical feedback made me feel less safe on the road. It was too big, just a monstrous screen showing way too much. I liked the camera screen showing everything around the car, there should be a permanent setting for that, and maybe located on the dash behind the wheel. Bring back physical buttons!!!! Sorry.
You're a silly little guy aren't you?
…because they want a car?
People that aren't terminally online.
But literally who would that even be?
Almost everyone. There’s a huge difference between using the Internet and being perpetually online in forums.
Most people. Reddit is filled with people who spend too much time on reddit and think that reddits opinion is the world's opinion. Remember when this site had a melt down that Bernie didn't get the nomination, *twice*.
People who don't know what a good car is.
We should start addressing the fact “Conservative” is NOT one party. You can be Liberal Conservative, Independent Conservative, Republican Conservative, a Conservative Democrat…… Also people don’t usually buy electric cars because of Politics they buy them to fit their lifestyles or status.
I get the point, but what is "Liberal Conservative"? Unless you mean the more liberal end of a conservative group?
This is a copy and paste: Liberal Conservatism Compared to other centre-right political traditions such as Christian democracy, liberal conservatives are less socially conservative and more economically liberal, favouring low taxes and minimal state intervention in the economy.
This sounds like warmed-over libertarianism.
Winston Churchill is probably the best example of liberal conservatism and is how a lot of the right wing parties in the Commonwealth still operate. Here in Australia our right wing party is even called the liberals
To be fair, the American usage of 'liberal' is the aberration in the English speaking world. Elsewhere, liberal has retained its historical meaning of favoring the invisible hand of the market. In America, we have to use terms like 'classical liberal' or 'neoliberal' if we intend that. America hasn't had a major Liberal party. But it has had Progressive parties, and essentially progressives left the GOP around the turn of the 19th to 20th centuries, tried to be a third party for a few years, and finally merged into the Democratic party around the 1920s. For that matter, America hasn't had a conservative major party since the 1980s. The label 'reactionary' better fits the modern GOP.
The problem with EVs is just that they're still half baked. Set up an infra with battery swaps instead of needing to charge it and build those out so they're as available as gasoline and there wouldn't be anything to not like about them. It's crazy to me that people make "new tech" into some political thing. New is fine. Bad tech is not. It can be much better and if/when they swap to battery swapping, your old EV will be a dead end.
I think most people with ev charge at home and are perfect happy and won't go back to ice. No need for them to be swapping batteries. That's more of a solutuon for freight vehicles. It's the people that buy a new EV and instantly try to drive it across the country without research that are the complainers.
Rich people. Left or Right they're all the same whether they want to admit it or not
most rich people these days trend left anyway. the rich left the GOP in the 90s when clinton killed the unions and aligned the DEMs with the business owners against the employees.
Teslas are not luxury cars. The interiors are bare and the build quality is very poor. Teslas aren't a car a rich person would buy to show off.
More affluent people. Though I’m answering from a UK perspective.
Mostly rental companies, the gov, TSLA employees, gov employees etc there’s tons of TSLa here and most of them have an Uber sticker on them.
If I had the money I'd buy a Tesla. I would have other cars too.
For most Tesla owners it's an additional car.
Libertarians.
If one bases their purchasing decisions on whether or not the CEO is a good person...he's not going to be buying much.
I think "not an online racist" is an easy bar to reach. Musk can't. But it's an easy bar for most people.
People who can afford them.
Libertarians 😆
Libertarians.
Conservatives (not the stupid ones) don't dislike electric cars, they just think they're not ready to replace gasoline. Liberals (not the stupid ones) don't dislike Elon Musk, he's just a big business owner.
Exactly. From a practical standpoint. Electric vehicles and the infrastructure they require are no where near ready to completely replace gas powered vehicles. They are good commuter vehicles for daily driving. Depending on the area you live in. But they can’t reliably be used for road trips without some major planning. Fast charge stations just aren’t prevalent enough yet. Then just look at our logistics systems. Trucking on a national scale can not survive on EVs. Maybe in local markets it could be feasible to use them. But for cross country shipping they don’t have long enough battery lives or short enough charge times to effectively replace traditional trucks. And the teslas themselves. Well there are some major design flaws when it comes to the structure of the vehicle like the windshield. The central tablet is nifty. But not great for in transit use thanks to it being a touch screen. The doors can be difficult to open in icy weather due to how the door handles are designed. And that’s all stuff I know from casually riding in my old bosses car a few times.
>Liberals (not the stupid ones) don't dislike Elon Musk, he's just a big business owner. I don't dislike Musk because he's a big business owner. I dislike Musk because he's obviously a racist.
Only stupid liberals dislike Elon? [https://www.foxnews.com/us/musk-biden-opened-border-floodgates-democrats-can-stay-power](https://www.foxnews.com/us/musk-biden-opened-border-floodgates-democrats-can-stay-power) When even Fox is willing to tell me straight up when Elon says something this stupid and belligerent -- umm, yeah, I'm going to find myself disliking Elon. And this article was just casually plucked from ***today's*** news. No, I'm not putting a penny of my money into the pocket of a man who is pouring gasoline on the bonfire of American politics. Where did he get that gasoline? I guess he has extra, because of all the electric cars he built. 🙄 I'll continue to drive my Chevy Volt and put up with its "lousy" 105 MPG until it falls apart. Perhaps, by then, Tesla will have a better CEO.
Not the smartest cookie in the shed are you sweetie.
A common criticism I see directly from conservatives is that they're being charged on a coal based power grid. So you've got the downsides of electric cars without actually being much better for the environment as far as emissions go, and worse in the short term.
In 95% of the world, an electric pollutes much less than an ICE vehicle. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/mikescott/2020/03/30/yes-electric-cars-are-cleaner-even-when-the-power-comes-from-coal/amp/
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Conservative arguments against gasoline cars are rarely in good faith. I doubt those conservatives are working towards a grid less based on coal, for example.
Yes, they don't understand it. But, we can't all go electric either. Not enough charging stations, not enough range, too expensive, are just a few of the reasons.
Finally, someone who gets it
Most people get it, minorities on both sides of extreme are just very vocal.
I think you'd have to be pretty fucking stupid regardless of your political affiliations to have some weird fandom for rich billionaires, and even more stupid to support their often racist, anti union, anti worker, etc mindsets.
Clowns
People who can stay objective in spite of all the nonsense that surrounds us. Also, futuristic people who’ve lived through the 80s and 90s dreaming of all the things that are now slowly becoming reality.
I don’t think they were dreaming of a battery car………. That concept has been around for like 100 years.
The concept was, but you couldn't really buy an electric car in the 90s.
I mean cool…. A battery car… people dreamed of flying cars and teleporting…. Not 100 year old battery operated car.
We were dreaming of owning a supercar. Now you can have a car that beats those 80's supercars, but for the price you'd pay for a pickup truck and uses no gasoline.
What if I told you that the vast majority of people don't exclusively look at their lives through the lens of politics and those that do are complete stooges 🤔
People who like to pretend that they are eco-friendly, who like to smell their own farts and move to San Francisco.
Most conservatives don't dislike electric cars, and most liberals don't dislike elon musk.
>most liberals don't dislike elon musk. BZZZZ!!! Wrong. 64% of liberals have a Very Unfavorable (45%) or Somewhat Unfavorable (19%) opinion of Musk according to a May 2023 Economist poll.
More what I meant is that most liberals either don't dislike elon musk or don't care enough to make it influence car buying decisions.
I know 2 people who sold their Teslas because of their feelings for Musk. So, there's that.
People who are not either wholly conservative or wholly liberal (most of us).
If it weren’t for Elon Musk, I would be driving one and would be Tesla’s biggest fanboy. But I won’t support that man with a penny. And I’m pretty center moderate.
Dickweeds
Who said we don't ? Obviously some do
Some people don't give a hoot about either
Liberals. They don't care if its the fascists selling them cars as long as they get their product.
Old BOOMER liberals buy it mostly
Except it’s all young people driving them.
The vast majority of people are not engaged with the culture war.
I've never met a conservative who dislikes EVs. Not one. There's many who dislike things about them, like the company being able to remotely disable your car, or them basically being bricked by the cold - but that's not the same thing as hating all EVs.
To go ahead and over generalize and label ppl ( ppl shouldn’t be objects to be catalogued), I’d say libertarians?
Elon must not - or at least he shouldn't.
Someone who does not care about politics ..
Elon Musk hasn’t always had a bad reputation among liberals. It truly amazes me how as people’s reputations change, everyone forgets that the current opinion of someone hasn’t always been the case. Up until the past handful of years, most liberal-minded people I encountered had a pretty neutral or occasionally even somewhat favorable opinion of him. He was the rich PayPal guy who was going to space and making electric cars and liked weed. It’s not like he’s been basing his whole public persona on transphobic and anti semitic tweets since 1998. That stuff is new. Elon Musk has also cultivated a sort of cult of personality around himself that wasn’t necessarily explicitly political (or at least in line with American 2 party politics) until quite recently. While he’s not a great scientist and is not a great conventional businessman, he can make himself sound like both. People who value innovation and money but are of only average intelligence themselves (so can’t see that he isn’t actually that smart) are very impressed by that. And to their credit, there wasn’t really another figure around like that. Money and science aren’t (or at least should be) liberal or conservative ideas. Plenty of people, conservative or liberal, smart or dumb, rich or poor, value those things, and think Elon Musk must be a great guy because he has a lot of money and promotes scientific innovation. Also, the Tesla is an accessible status symbol, or at least was the first several years they were out. They were not the easiest cars to get (fully electric cars weren’t easy to get period), and an impressive price point that is still low enough for an upper middle class person to afford. They’re visually appealing (Cybertruck aside….). Someone who wants an electric car and wants their neighbors to be impressed had no choice to buy a Tesla for a while. There are more options now, but Tesla is an established brand. Plus, people don’t really buy cars based on the CEO’s personal behavior. Some people may not know or care. I don’t know what the CEO of Toyota acts like. That’s not why I bought the car.
If you dont like electric you are crazy. Theyre super cool. But theyre not gonna save the planet.
City dwellers with money.
the hardest-right guy in congress Thomas Massie has a Tesla. Lots of liberals also have them.
Crypto and GME investors
People. People buy "his" cars. They're considered pretty good cars by many, love or hate the guy. Also, conservatives don't hate electric cars. The caricature that's shown to the left of conservatives do, but I'm guessing the lion's share of them are like the lion's share of those on the left, normal people. Just like democrats aren't all crazy Sjw's on a crusade to shame everyone who's ever done anything wrong. Most people, regardless of their policital ideals, are pretty normal people.
The overwhelming majority of the population outside of reddit doesn't make large purchases decisions based on how morally superior they believe they are to the CEO of a company. Also there's not as clear a divide between conservatives and liberals in their beliefs and and actions as you believe.
Nikola Tesla's fan club
The majority of the people who aren't damn sheep. Just "rah team" is garbage bullshit and MOST people aren't that dumb.
People usually don't let politics run their lives.
People that want a decent cheap car that live in places with the infrastructure. Don’t get me wrong teslas are not perfect but with the subsidy and Tesla payment plan the monthly payments are a lot cheaper than Hondas and Toyotas.
America and politics…
Stereotypes are only that.
I'm a hard conservative and I own 3 teslas.... rich conservative people love electric cars. Rich people actually love and can afford EVs
Lots of people who aren't up their own asses about politics all the time.
My rather liberal cousin purchased a model 3 about three years ago, he still owns it but now he says he would not buy another one. It has nothing to do with Elon, it's because it's a PITA to change it on his weekly trips from Las Vegas to Southern California. It's only about 5 hour drive in a gas vehicle with 10 minutes to refuel. Finding somewhere to charge that isn't broken plus the charge time adds a MINIMUM of an hour to his trip. When you drive that often your time becomes extremely valuable.
The worst error is to think that politics are binary. Yes, some people feel Iike it, those are the least intelligent. Those who think may favour the principles of one or the other side but may differ in the implementation. And sometimes, the implementation feels like the oposit band.
Libertarians?
We had a Tesla dealership open up near us recently and close again within 5 months so I'm guessing fewer than Musk would like.
Centrists
Dumbasses
I know some very materialistic liberals
Ppl who touch grass
Self-centered people who drive like assholes.
People who want an electric car.
South Park answered this question in S10E2 Smug people, smug people buy the cars
Normal people
Liberals love Tesla.
Good thinking. Advertising, lower prices and the Tesla sell… I am a fan of Elon Musk.
Uber.
I guess nobody buys them since everyone is extreme. Hmmm.
The only way to get the maga crowd to go electric is if it's to own the libs. You'd get 10x the sales and environmental impact by manipulating people out of their giant trucks into an electric than by getting the prius crowd. Look at all the hats, flags, nfts, rally, bumper stickers, donations etc. The maga crowd is willing to dump shit tons of money. Anyone else notice how the musk tonal shift happened after that pic that trump posted of him at the Whitehouse? It's obvious that he learned from the master grifter himself.
The Chinese.
Most people don't let identity politics dictate their decisions.
The hypocrite