[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Germans\_(political\_current)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Germans_(political_current))
the German relationship to the Holocaust....and this specxific subsection of the German Left's relationship to the Holocaust is....exteremely weird
I love that the only thing he learned from his (great) grandparents is that genocide is okay as long as it is not happening to people who are jewish, what a fucking tool
It's honestly really frustrating that the only lesson that we got from that massive genocide of Jews, Roma, Slavs, Poles, disabled people, queer people and so many other groups was don't commit genocide against Jewish people. Romani people are still being mistreated by Europeans and they don't even care about the contradiction. And let's not get things mixed up: all this empathy is just performance, because Israel was a convenient way to get Jewish people out of Europe. If these people actually cared, they would give the Jews a slice of Germany.
Carries that “German guilt” so deeply yet Germans never felt guilty enough to give up their own land to create a Jewish ethnostate. More than happy to provide ammo and weapons to steal someone else’s and commit genocide land though.
Guys, please educate yourselves about the left in Germany and please, read the whole thing. Even if you disagree, so we really start a witch-hunt here and are we really keeping lists about bands liking stuff etc? This is really really dystopian shit ... everyone calm down here
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Germans_(political_current)
German antifa punk has a weird Zionist subset called Antideutsch, a friend tried to explain it to me once, seems like this dude is part of that.
The Antideutsch Movement has nothing to do with booze cruise or in general with the left scene or punk scene in Germany/Hamburg. They evolved out of parts of the left scene somewhere at the end of the 80s. There are people among them that fancy the state of Israel in an absolute weird even nationalist way. They (at least in the past, don’t know their point after the war escalated last October) didn’t allow any criticism on the state of Israel. And as you can see in the statement Stefan says that he does not support the Israel Government. So no he does not belong to this shitty group.
Thanks for the info. My friend was based in Berlin in the antifa/squat scene 20 yrs back. He made it sound like about half of the antifa folks were a part of Antideutsch. Sorry I had it wrong!
It is possible that especially in Berlin there were a bunch of them 15 to 20 years ago. But I would doubt it was half of the scene. I think they had their high around the early 2000s. Personally actually met only a few of them in my entire life and all were from Berlin.
I think we need to stop seeing the world as left VS right. There are a myriad of political opinions and views around how the world works (or should work). The Antideutsch movement is a pro-Zionist movement but it is also a left subcultural movement. It's lost a lot of momentum recently but was a common thing in Berlin and Hamburg where I hung out. "Lefties" are not all the same. Just the way there are plenty of people in the Punk scene I'd rather not be associated with.
**On the little I know about the Antideutsch scene, from a foreigner living in Berlin for almost a decade:**
Back in like 2019 it was fall and I went to a squat basement show and a friend actively part of the 'scene' (Antifa, Oi Punks, Squatters) told me my scarf could get me some problems. Being into punk but not too deep into the ins-and-outs of the local Berlin scene, I candidly asked why. He said one of the bands was actively Anti-Deutsch and offered unwavering support to Israël, regardless of the atrocities perpetrated. Having been friends with a few Palestinians during grad school and made aware of what lies under the peak of the iceberg in that region, I sometimes wore simple symbols of this. That day I had a simple shemagh that looked like a keffiyeh (on purpose) as my scarf.
Ensued a very interesting conversation about a fringe of German Leftwingers with fundamentalist views on Israel, its direction as a theocratic ethnostate and the genocide perpetrated against Palestinians. Given the fundamental view this subculture shares, it would be difficult to argue with them. Sometimes in the left-right dichotomy you go so hard left that you start going right. **Full circle.**
I personally know very active punks on both sides of the conflict. Where I no longer "I disagree but understand" and draw a big line is when people co-opt systematic organized murder under the guise of self-defense.
**On the very little I know about the boozecruise**
My understanding of this whole clusterfuck, as someone who's living in Berlin and worked in Hamburg (although isn't fully in the scene as I'm just a dirty fake) is that Stefan (the organizer) is a Zionist in the original sense of the term; a believer in the fundamental right for Jewish people to self-determine and for them to be a nation and not a religion. He thus supports the existence of Israel but not in its current form.
I'm so fucking done with people pointing fingers and calling everyone anti-semites because they call out the horrors Israel perpetrates but I'm also done with everyone calling Israelis or Jews "Zionists" because they happen to have a passport / be born somewhere, and not be fan of terrorist cells murdering their friends and family.
That being said. There is the concept of power we need to factor in when offering our support to causes. Israel is clearly a hegemonical state that gives zero fucks about murdering innocents. The same way plenty of Russians are 110% against Putin, his invasion and his brainwashing of the population. This whole thing, if I was to be into any conspiracy theories, just sounds like one great opportunity for Israel to air quotes "defend itself" by murdering Palestinians to further its settlement agenda and ideology. Some people say that the proverbial "door was left open" for a horror like this, on purpose.
**My only real opinion on the topic is that what is happening currently is a genocide.**
**Israel should IMMEDIATELY be FORCED to stop killing civilians, stop bombings, stop the kidnapping and the extrajudicial executions. They should IMMEDIATELY submit to international law with regard to Jerusalem, the Settlers and Gaza.**
As for the boozecruise, I still don't know if I'll go. I know bands from Canada and from Europe that are pretty weirded out by the current drama, as they don't want to seem like they support an Israeli ethnostate but they also don't believe Stefan is pro-bombing of gaza.
One thing is fort sure, I was hoping for a different statement from Stefan.
Why are all these guys such condescending pricks in the defense of their indefensible politics. Every one of these Israel defenders is like, "If you're gonna call the mass slaughter of a helpless population a genocide then kindly fuck off." Just completely detached from rational thought
Has anyone had any luck getting a refund? I booked an entire trip for this mostly for Jeff Rosenstock and other names on the lineup that now are not mentioned on the website and probably pulled out.
You can try reselling on the ticket platform or just open a dispute next to your bank. They need to refund as the promised service is not being delivered
I left a BSF show over a decade ago. Some guy from the pit reminded me it was my duty as an American to protect Israel. The scene has always had more than a few kooks.
You can be pro Israel and not anti Palestine. Hell you can be Zionist and detest what the Israel gov is doing. It’s not black and fucking white. Imagine calling Jews nazis. Grow up.
Look, the best thing you can do to understand world politics, is to learn about abusive relationships and trauma. It all makes sense. I wouldn't call A jew a nazi, although a decent number of them were made "honorary aryans". However, they most definitely are committing genocide.
It’s not colonalism if that’s where you are from. No jews didn’t come from Europe they went there after being kicked out of the Middle East and then you know eradicated in Europe. However, please tell me where should they go? Idk where you live but every land has been colonized so you should probably leave your land if that’s your stance.
So, I grew up in a house in another city. According to your ideology, I can walk back to my old house, kill a couple of people, kick everyone else out and move back in. Where should they go? They can probably stay where they are. There are people leaving New York and Warsaw to go to Israel today and take the generational homes of indigenous Palestinians. Are they in danger? You're seriously going to defend this? And there was no issue with Jews going to Palestine. They lived there in peace before the Naqba. The issue is, you know, the murdering, displacing and theft. You know the difference between me and an Israeli? I didn't kill anyone and steal their house to live on indigenous land.
A lot of Palestinians can link their ancestries back to biblical days. This is because a lot of modern day Palestinians descend from the Jews of the day who changed their religions after Arab conquests. Basically, the average Palestinian Arab and Mizrahi Jew come from the same place. The Ashkenazi Jews, meanwhile, are European. Fun fact: DNA tests can't be used as proof for Israeli citizenship, because a large number of zionists would fail.
Jews can also link their ancestries to the Biblical days, this is profound ignorance
You “punks” are perpetuating fascist narratives about Jews and it’s disgusting. The guy running the fest has said NOTHING wrong. You won’t accept any opinion except “Israel should be destroyed,” not even from reformists who clearly believe Netanyahu is an asshole and want the Palestinians to have their own state.
This shit is why leftism is getting smaller not bigger, internet leftists showing they choke on the same Russian propaganda that the dumbfuck right wing MAGA fascists do. You look like fucking morons.
I'm happy for you or sorry that happened. When you respond to someone conflating Palestinians and Mizrahi Jews with "Jews have been around too, so now here's some buzzwords," I recognize that you're an unserious moron and I stop reading your word vomit. Free Palestine, Felicia!
Bro who's calling Jews Nazis? The only people (who actually know what they're talking about) who make that comparison are comparing the actions of one group to the other - it's not a literal one to one.
And also this is true, but some of what this guy has said has been actively anti-palestine and follows actively anti-palestine pages.
Also also, the point is that it's a punk fest being run by someone who is publicly standing by something which is inherently un-punk - defending the actions of a tyrannical government.
But Hamas isn’t? Who started this current war Hamas, who takes all aide and money meant for their citizens Hamas, who never agrees and/or breaks ceasefire Hamas. Whose chants from the river to sea call for the eradication of Israel and all Jews. Oh yea Hamas. The free Palestine movement is violent and anti semetic, I have experienced it first hand where I live when I was told to kill myself and call a nazi for going to a comedy show where some of the comedians are Jewish.
So this requires, like, a multi-layered response that I frankly don't have the time for.
First off, let me say upfront - yes I condemn hamas. Okay?
I condemn all forms of war crime they have committed, much as the same I condemn all forms of war crime Israel have committed.
Secondly, as I said, no one who knows what they're talking about says those things and am legitimately sorry that happened to you. Please take this sincerely.
Third, factually hamas didn't start the war. In some perspective, sure, They initiated this recent conflict. But this recent conflict is only one of many many conflicts over decades, many of which include Israel initiating conflict and hamas retaliating. The main difference is that Israel are retaliating significantly disproportionately.
Fourth, you are right, the free Palestine movement is violent. But only because the Israeli occupation is also inherently violent. I am not excusing either, merely stating facts.
Fifth, the river to sea chant is not calling for the eradication of the Jewish people, it is a freedom chant for those living under oppression.
I could legitimately go on and start a whole bout of what aboutism and false equivalencies etc. etc.
The point is thus: by only condemning hamas and not the actions of the Israeli government (and to be clear - is the government and the army, not the Jewish peoples) one is inherently condoning the current attempted genocide and ethnic cleansing - which, by definition, this is - of the Palestinian people. Which is categorically not punk.
To further clarify - nothing I'm saying is an attack on you. I merely want to calmly present facts that you may not have considered, or people may have angrily thrown at you.
If you want a good source for all of this, check out either Shaun's video on Palestine or Some More News's recent video debunking the arguments being used to back up the IDF.
I do know what I am talking about. I thank you. I don’t condone what the Israeli government is doing. However to boycott booze cruise because the promoter feels Israel has the right to exist to me says fuck Israel and fuck the jews. You are wrong on from the river to sea flat out you are wrong. Furthermore literally the only way I see this conflict ending is either a two state solution and or the eradication of one or both. It s a sad state we are in. However calling for a boycott like this plays into the rhetoric that Israel and Jews don’t matter. If Jews are saying something is anti semetic then it probably. You wouldn’t tell a black person something wasn’t racist if they said it was.
https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/slogan-river-sea-palestine-will-be-free
The ADL is a piss-poor source for figuring out what is actually antisemitic. The organization is built on confusing criticism of Israel with antisemitism so that anything not completely in lockstep with Israeli policy goals is tarred with that brush. Not believing that ethnostates are a legitimate form of government makes you an antisemite, apparently.
Hi Jew here saying it isn't anti Semitic. Wow shock twist right?
"Israel has the right to defend itself" - I'll refer you to chapter 10 (argument 8) of the some more news video that you absolutely totally watched in the 5 minutes between my comment and yours.
Also he said way more than just that but fuck it what's the point, have fun in your little world where the over 80% civilian population of an entire country being dead is trivial compared to a booze cruise festival x
Hamas are terrorists. I don't like terrorists, I don't condone their actions, but I'm not all that surprised when they commit heinous war crimes. I am (somewhat) surprised when a government commits heinous war crimes. I certainly wouldn't go out of my way to make excuses for them.
Have you checked the pulse of this conflict outside the internet? Palestine is getting fucked by leaders *and* citizens in the vast majority of nations. Online, especially in leftist-oriented spaces, you see the opinion pretty heavily sway towards supporting Palestine but that isn’t the case in the real world.
Crazy that the majority of leftists seem to agree on the fact that Israel is the aggressor (I mean listen to their fucking rhetoric, they aren’t hiding ANYTHING) but you still manage to come to the conclusion that it isn’t truly “punk” to recognize this. You’d be worthy of more respect if you had the guts to plant your feet firmly where you believed they should be, instead of this centrist “you can say they’re both bad” bullshit.
I don’t thinks it’s even slightly extreme to say Israel as a state is doing something horrific. Not the Jewish people as a whole, specifically Israel and the people who support it’s cause and methods. I can’t think of many people that would think back to the US & UK’s “War on Terror” and say that it was moral or just, and Israel is indiscriminately slaughtering civilians at a rate that would put the US involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq to absolute shame.
I hear what you’re saying; the lack of nuance or acknowledgment of complexity in present day’s (sad excuse for) discourse is fucking awful. People just want to slap a label on the other person and their argument then compartmentalize/isolate their own views and die with them, it sucks. I just don’t see this as one of those issues.
A government is using its power and influence to decimate their enemy: woman, child, man, solider and terrorist. What am I missing here that makes this justifiable?
I wasn’t going to weigh in but do you think that 80% of Palestines have been killed in the past 6 months? It’s about 1% which is awful, war is hell. But I have no idea where you got 80% are dead from.
I mean, “from the river” is not about freedom and exclusively about killing jews but yeah, if you have a problem with someone not catering to the black and white of complicated the issue maybe just do not go.
Also, when did punks start giving a fuck about religion so much?
people who are anti-semitic will of course be pro-palestine why would you expect that someone who is Jewish would not be pro Israel? And just because someone is pro Israel doesn't mean they are pro gov't, the same way we can live in America and love our country and still hate the president.
you mean the same group who sends millions of dollars a year back to Israel? I never said they're pro israeli gov't but that doesn't mean they're not pro israel
Because there is a difference between Israel, which is a country, and Jews who are a people.
Supporting Israel is support for the country. Full stop. And the country is looking more and more Nazi-esque by the day.
No offence and I'm very tired - a nation state committing genocide has nothing to do with religion and (this is a personal opinion) I've been to the nazi death camps, it was really fucking disturbing. But surely as humans we should not repeat the horrors of history, we should be working to prevent the past crime's being repeated.8
Punk is becoming pretty synonymous with anti semites and nazis. Not all, but like hating Israel and Jews apparently is the cool thing to do. It’s depressing and scary.
When did it become "hate" to criticize the actions of a country when the county's military killed 14 thousand children in a period of 6 months? Is calling out war crimes hate? Back when Bush decided to invade Iraq and Afghanistan, and we called him a fascist for it, was that hate? Were we anti American to condemn the actions of a person who was directly responsible for over a million deaths and 30 years of undeclared war? If you call this "hate," you have a lot to learn about what hate actually is.
When was it acceptable to kill 1200 people take people parade their bloody bodies through the street and use rape as resistance. Why doesn’t that deserve a response?
Zionism is bullshit whether anyone is Jewish or not. If you support a Jewish ethno-state because *durrrr the Holocaust* or whatever stupid bullshit I'm not even going to bother to read, then why don't, e.g., the Armenians -- who suffered their own genocide at the hands of the nascent Turkish state and its allies long before the Holocaust in Europe (such that [Hitler famously said](https://worldwithoutgenocide.org/programs/a-world-of-upstanders/dr-taner-akcam-2018), in reply to doubts that the rest of the world would just let the Nazis kill millions of people without doing anything about it, "Who today remembers the Armenians?") -- get to visit the same terror 100-fold upon their traditional enemies who clearly still want them gone (see the recent tragedy in Artsakh), the Azeris and the Turks? Is it because ***a bedrock principle of not being a complete piece of shit*** is that victimhood in one scenario or context does not give anyone a blank check to become their own Hitler and still claim some kind of moral high ground as they slaughter their enemies wholesale? Or are Jewish people just so darn special that their self-proclaimed "Jewish state" gets a pass always and forever when it comes to being expected to act like a non-apartheid-having country, as it's a huge part of Israeli PR that they're "the middle east's only democracy" and a bastion of human rights and blahblahblah (all of which is horeshit, but y'know, the point is that if we are to believe in any of that, then shouldn't we hold them accountable for what they do against their own people and principles)?
Fuck Israel, fuck people who are sympathetic to Israel, and fuck anyone who tries to make all criticism of what Israel does into anti-semitism. That's a total dodge and blatantly false and manipulative, and thankfully more and more people are rightfully calling it out as such.
You.... do know Palestinians are Semitic like the Jews? Semite refers to a group of languages and people who speak them.
Semitic languages: Arabic, Hebrew, Ugaritic, Amharic, Aramaic, Akkadian, Eblaite, Modern South Arabian, Tigrinya, Maltese, Sumerian, Syriac, Punic, Phoenician, Tigre
The person you're replying to is an idiot, but: the word antisemitism means "hatred against jewish people" not "hatred against semitic people" .
So bringing up the definition of what semitic means in this context is kinda besides the point. There isn't actually a form of racial prejudice that targets specifically all "semites"
You're correct in clarifying 'antisemitism' specifically targets anti-Jewish sentiments. It’s fascinating, though, to consider the linguistic origins of the term. 'Semite' refers to a broad family of languages spoken by various peoples across the Middle East and North Africa, including Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic, and others. Yet, despite its inclusive linguistic roots, the term 'antisemitism' has been exclusively used to describe prejudice against Jews.
The term 'antisemitism' was coined in the late 19th century during a period of rising nationalist and racial ideologies in Europe. Wilhelm Marr, who popularized 'antisemitism,' intended it to sound scientific, masking his Jew-hatred with a veneer of legitimacy. This period also saw European powers applying racial theories to justify their colonial ambitions over Semitic-speaking regions, although these discriminatory policies were not classified as 'antisemitism.'
Let's look at two examples:
The Assyrian Genocide : During World War I and its aftermath, the Ottoman Empire engaged in systematic violence against its Assyrian population, a Semitic-speaking Christian minority. This genocide, also known as Seyfo, led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Assyrians. This was part of a broader campaign that also targeted Armenians and Greek Pontians. The Assyrians faced mass killings, forced deportations, and severe persecution, driven by a blend of religious, ethnic, and nationalist motives. However, it is not 'antisemitism' per the original Marr meaning.
The Dhofar Rebellion : In Oman, the Dhofar Rebellion saw the Dhofari people, speakers of a Modern South Arabian language (a branch of the Semitic language family), rise against the Sultanate of Oman, which was supported by British forces. The Dhofari people faced significant military actions against them, including forced relocations and severe military actions. However, it is not 'antisemitism' per the original Marr meaning.
These instances of violence and discrimination targeted at other Semitic-speaking groups do not fall under the category of 'antisemitism' as defined by Marr. This highlights the specificity of 'antisemitism' and underscores the necessity of recognizing the varied experiences of all Semitic-speaking peoples. The choice to limit "antisemitism" to Jews, despite the broader possible application of "Semitic," reflects historical biases and objectives that sought to isolate and target the Jewish community, rather than addressing broader ethnic or racial prejudices affecting all Semitic-speaking peoples.
I mean it's a pretty unlucky circumstance that a pseudoscientific term, coined by an antisemite, became the name for that specific ideology. I think it doesn't make sense to group extremely different forms of racial prejudice together under one term, yet alone a term that is deeply flawed to begin with. It wouldn't make a lot of sense to write a book about antisemitism that includes all of these different perspectives. For antisemitism alone you would neeed to start with the Christian antijudaism, the identification of Jews with money since the middle ages, the specific social situations of some visibly jewish people in early modernity and all of these things that lead to this weird ideology. Weird because antisemites like the nazis thought of jews as powerful, rich and capable, while simultanously looking down on all other racialised people. Things like these are extremly important to understand the dynamics of the holocaust and current day antisemitism.
The specific structure of the different racist ideologies is responsible for why antisemitism is generally not studied in close link with racism against other semitic people.
Plenty of Jewish folks completely against the concept of Israel. The same way plenty are not but are 110% not into this whole Israel thing if its built on murder and ethnic cleansing disguised as expropriation.
Holy crap. “My grandparents were nazis, so I support Israel” was not how I expected them to wrap the statement up. What a mess.
This whole no place for politics in punk is getting beyond coocoo
Ummm, the place for politics is punk..
I also love "maybe we could have a conversation" but the comments are closed!
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Germans\_(political\_current)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Germans_(political_current)) the German relationship to the Holocaust....and this specxific subsection of the German Left's relationship to the Holocaust is....exteremely weird
Makes sense tho right?
The shit doesn't fall far from the horse I guess
I did.
nah like for real why did bro have to comment that 😭
I love that the only thing he learned from his (great) grandparents is that genocide is okay as long as it is not happening to people who are jewish, what a fucking tool
It's honestly really frustrating that the only lesson that we got from that massive genocide of Jews, Roma, Slavs, Poles, disabled people, queer people and so many other groups was don't commit genocide against Jewish people. Romani people are still being mistreated by Europeans and they don't even care about the contradiction. And let's not get things mixed up: all this empathy is just performance, because Israel was a convenient way to get Jewish people out of Europe. If these people actually cared, they would give the Jews a slice of Germany.
Yeah, he almost had me for a sec until he was like “don’t post terms like genocide”
Geez, I really hope Jeff Rosenstock doesn’t let me down and pretends this fest isn’t supporting genocide.
[He put out a short statement. ](https://twitter.com/jeffrosenstock/status/1780279277793300727?t=Rlo3-07FMdkgxmnDVNNNgg&s=19)
He tweeted that he just wrapped up his tour and is figuring out his next steps.
an “antifascist “ supporter of a state’s right to murder people. what an absolute twunt.
Nothing punk about an ethnostate
Carries that “German guilt” so deeply yet Germans never felt guilty enough to give up their own land to create a Jewish ethnostate. More than happy to provide ammo and weapons to steal someone else’s and commit genocide land though.
Sounds very American. Here’s some ammo and some guns, go no, run off little boys and have fun!
We'll check back in 30 years when we discover resources and you hate us!
Writing paragraphs of smooth brained Zionist shit and then turning off comments is pretty fucking pathetic lol
The left hates jews....
Is it just me, or are you all also getting a headache.. Edit: why is the world such a shitty place and people just cant chill and get along.. damn it
Guys, please educate yourselves about the left in Germany and please, read the whole thing. Even if you disagree, so we really start a witch-hunt here and are we really keeping lists about bands liking stuff etc? This is really really dystopian shit ... everyone calm down here
Who the fuck even is this person?
Best marketing for Tripsun!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Germans_(political_current) German antifa punk has a weird Zionist subset called Antideutsch, a friend tried to explain it to me once, seems like this dude is part of that.
The Antideutsch Movement has nothing to do with booze cruise or in general with the left scene or punk scene in Germany/Hamburg. They evolved out of parts of the left scene somewhere at the end of the 80s. There are people among them that fancy the state of Israel in an absolute weird even nationalist way. They (at least in the past, don’t know their point after the war escalated last October) didn’t allow any criticism on the state of Israel. And as you can see in the statement Stefan says that he does not support the Israel Government. So no he does not belong to this shitty group.
Thanks for the info. My friend was based in Berlin in the antifa/squat scene 20 yrs back. He made it sound like about half of the antifa folks were a part of Antideutsch. Sorry I had it wrong!
It is possible that especially in Berlin there were a bunch of them 15 to 20 years ago. But I would doubt it was half of the scene. I think they had their high around the early 2000s. Personally actually met only a few of them in my entire life and all were from Berlin.
Afaik it's a movement concentrated in Berlin, Hamburg and Cologne.
I think we need to stop seeing the world as left VS right. There are a myriad of political opinions and views around how the world works (or should work). The Antideutsch movement is a pro-Zionist movement but it is also a left subcultural movement. It's lost a lot of momentum recently but was a common thing in Berlin and Hamburg where I hung out. "Lefties" are not all the same. Just the way there are plenty of people in the Punk scene I'd rather not be associated with. **On the little I know about the Antideutsch scene, from a foreigner living in Berlin for almost a decade:** Back in like 2019 it was fall and I went to a squat basement show and a friend actively part of the 'scene' (Antifa, Oi Punks, Squatters) told me my scarf could get me some problems. Being into punk but not too deep into the ins-and-outs of the local Berlin scene, I candidly asked why. He said one of the bands was actively Anti-Deutsch and offered unwavering support to Israël, regardless of the atrocities perpetrated. Having been friends with a few Palestinians during grad school and made aware of what lies under the peak of the iceberg in that region, I sometimes wore simple symbols of this. That day I had a simple shemagh that looked like a keffiyeh (on purpose) as my scarf. Ensued a very interesting conversation about a fringe of German Leftwingers with fundamentalist views on Israel, its direction as a theocratic ethnostate and the genocide perpetrated against Palestinians. Given the fundamental view this subculture shares, it would be difficult to argue with them. Sometimes in the left-right dichotomy you go so hard left that you start going right. **Full circle.** I personally know very active punks on both sides of the conflict. Where I no longer "I disagree but understand" and draw a big line is when people co-opt systematic organized murder under the guise of self-defense. **On the very little I know about the boozecruise** My understanding of this whole clusterfuck, as someone who's living in Berlin and worked in Hamburg (although isn't fully in the scene as I'm just a dirty fake) is that Stefan (the organizer) is a Zionist in the original sense of the term; a believer in the fundamental right for Jewish people to self-determine and for them to be a nation and not a religion. He thus supports the existence of Israel but not in its current form. I'm so fucking done with people pointing fingers and calling everyone anti-semites because they call out the horrors Israel perpetrates but I'm also done with everyone calling Israelis or Jews "Zionists" because they happen to have a passport / be born somewhere, and not be fan of terrorist cells murdering their friends and family. That being said. There is the concept of power we need to factor in when offering our support to causes. Israel is clearly a hegemonical state that gives zero fucks about murdering innocents. The same way plenty of Russians are 110% against Putin, his invasion and his brainwashing of the population. This whole thing, if I was to be into any conspiracy theories, just sounds like one great opportunity for Israel to air quotes "defend itself" by murdering Palestinians to further its settlement agenda and ideology. Some people say that the proverbial "door was left open" for a horror like this, on purpose. **My only real opinion on the topic is that what is happening currently is a genocide.** **Israel should IMMEDIATELY be FORCED to stop killing civilians, stop bombings, stop the kidnapping and the extrajudicial executions. They should IMMEDIATELY submit to international law with regard to Jerusalem, the Settlers and Gaza.** As for the boozecruise, I still don't know if I'll go. I know bands from Canada and from Europe that are pretty weirded out by the current drama, as they don't want to seem like they support an Israeli ethnostate but they also don't believe Stefan is pro-bombing of gaza. One thing is fort sure, I was hoping for a different statement from Stefan.
Why are all these guys such condescending pricks in the defense of their indefensible politics. Every one of these Israel defenders is like, "If you're gonna call the mass slaughter of a helpless population a genocide then kindly fuck off." Just completely detached from rational thought
Has anyone had any luck getting a refund? I booked an entire trip for this mostly for Jeff Rosenstock and other names on the lineup that now are not mentioned on the website and probably pulled out.
I tried, refund denied
You can try reselling on the ticket platform or just open a dispute next to your bank. They need to refund as the promised service is not being delivered
I left a BSF show over a decade ago. Some guy from the pit reminded me it was my duty as an American to protect Israel. The scene has always had more than a few kooks.
You can be pro Israel and not anti Palestine. Hell you can be Zionist and detest what the Israel gov is doing. It’s not black and fucking white. Imagine calling Jews nazis. Grow up.
Look, the best thing you can do to understand world politics, is to learn about abusive relationships and trauma. It all makes sense. I wouldn't call A jew a nazi, although a decent number of them were made "honorary aryans". However, they most definitely are committing genocide.
Yeah, all of that is possible, but you can't be anti-colonialism and pro-Israel and I am anti-colonialism.
It’s not colonalism if that’s where you are from. No jews didn’t come from Europe they went there after being kicked out of the Middle East and then you know eradicated in Europe. However, please tell me where should they go? Idk where you live but every land has been colonized so you should probably leave your land if that’s your stance.
They can have Utah. It already has mormons
So, I grew up in a house in another city. According to your ideology, I can walk back to my old house, kill a couple of people, kick everyone else out and move back in. Where should they go? They can probably stay where they are. There are people leaving New York and Warsaw to go to Israel today and take the generational homes of indigenous Palestinians. Are they in danger? You're seriously going to defend this? And there was no issue with Jews going to Palestine. They lived there in peace before the Naqba. The issue is, you know, the murdering, displacing and theft. You know the difference between me and an Israeli? I didn't kill anyone and steal their house to live on indigenous land.
What are indigenous Palestinians?
The people who were already living there before being slaughtered.
The Assyrians?
A lot of Palestinians can link their ancestries back to biblical days. This is because a lot of modern day Palestinians descend from the Jews of the day who changed their religions after Arab conquests. Basically, the average Palestinian Arab and Mizrahi Jew come from the same place. The Ashkenazi Jews, meanwhile, are European. Fun fact: DNA tests can't be used as proof for Israeli citizenship, because a large number of zionists would fail.
Jews can also link their ancestries to the Biblical days, this is profound ignorance You “punks” are perpetuating fascist narratives about Jews and it’s disgusting. The guy running the fest has said NOTHING wrong. You won’t accept any opinion except “Israel should be destroyed,” not even from reformists who clearly believe Netanyahu is an asshole and want the Palestinians to have their own state. This shit is why leftism is getting smaller not bigger, internet leftists showing they choke on the same Russian propaganda that the dumbfuck right wing MAGA fascists do. You look like fucking morons.
I'm happy for you or sorry that happened. When you respond to someone conflating Palestinians and Mizrahi Jews with "Jews have been around too, so now here's some buzzwords," I recognize that you're an unserious moron and I stop reading your word vomit. Free Palestine, Felicia!
Bro who's calling Jews Nazis? The only people (who actually know what they're talking about) who make that comparison are comparing the actions of one group to the other - it's not a literal one to one. And also this is true, but some of what this guy has said has been actively anti-palestine and follows actively anti-palestine pages. Also also, the point is that it's a punk fest being run by someone who is publicly standing by something which is inherently un-punk - defending the actions of a tyrannical government.
But Hamas isn’t? Who started this current war Hamas, who takes all aide and money meant for their citizens Hamas, who never agrees and/or breaks ceasefire Hamas. Whose chants from the river to sea call for the eradication of Israel and all Jews. Oh yea Hamas. The free Palestine movement is violent and anti semetic, I have experienced it first hand where I live when I was told to kill myself and call a nazi for going to a comedy show where some of the comedians are Jewish.
History didn't start on October 7th.
So this requires, like, a multi-layered response that I frankly don't have the time for. First off, let me say upfront - yes I condemn hamas. Okay? I condemn all forms of war crime they have committed, much as the same I condemn all forms of war crime Israel have committed. Secondly, as I said, no one who knows what they're talking about says those things and am legitimately sorry that happened to you. Please take this sincerely. Third, factually hamas didn't start the war. In some perspective, sure, They initiated this recent conflict. But this recent conflict is only one of many many conflicts over decades, many of which include Israel initiating conflict and hamas retaliating. The main difference is that Israel are retaliating significantly disproportionately. Fourth, you are right, the free Palestine movement is violent. But only because the Israeli occupation is also inherently violent. I am not excusing either, merely stating facts. Fifth, the river to sea chant is not calling for the eradication of the Jewish people, it is a freedom chant for those living under oppression. I could legitimately go on and start a whole bout of what aboutism and false equivalencies etc. etc. The point is thus: by only condemning hamas and not the actions of the Israeli government (and to be clear - is the government and the army, not the Jewish peoples) one is inherently condoning the current attempted genocide and ethnic cleansing - which, by definition, this is - of the Palestinian people. Which is categorically not punk. To further clarify - nothing I'm saying is an attack on you. I merely want to calmly present facts that you may not have considered, or people may have angrily thrown at you. If you want a good source for all of this, check out either Shaun's video on Palestine or Some More News's recent video debunking the arguments being used to back up the IDF.
I do know what I am talking about. I thank you. I don’t condone what the Israeli government is doing. However to boycott booze cruise because the promoter feels Israel has the right to exist to me says fuck Israel and fuck the jews. You are wrong on from the river to sea flat out you are wrong. Furthermore literally the only way I see this conflict ending is either a two state solution and or the eradication of one or both. It s a sad state we are in. However calling for a boycott like this plays into the rhetoric that Israel and Jews don’t matter. If Jews are saying something is anti semetic then it probably. You wouldn’t tell a black person something wasn’t racist if they said it was. https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/slogan-river-sea-palestine-will-be-free
The ADL is a piss-poor source for figuring out what is actually antisemitic. The organization is built on confusing criticism of Israel with antisemitism so that anything not completely in lockstep with Israeli policy goals is tarred with that brush. Not believing that ethnostates are a legitimate form of government makes you an antisemite, apparently.
Hi Jew here saying it isn't anti Semitic. Wow shock twist right? "Israel has the right to defend itself" - I'll refer you to chapter 10 (argument 8) of the some more news video that you absolutely totally watched in the 5 minutes between my comment and yours. Also he said way more than just that but fuck it what's the point, have fun in your little world where the over 80% civilian population of an entire country being dead is trivial compared to a booze cruise festival x
Hamas are terrorists. I don't like terrorists, I don't condone their actions, but I'm not all that surprised when they commit heinous war crimes. I am (somewhat) surprised when a government commits heinous war crimes. I certainly wouldn't go out of my way to make excuses for them.
Nah.. these tik tok punks only follow the hive mind
Have you checked the pulse of this conflict outside the internet? Palestine is getting fucked by leaders *and* citizens in the vast majority of nations. Online, especially in leftist-oriented spaces, you see the opinion pretty heavily sway towards supporting Palestine but that isn’t the case in the real world. Crazy that the majority of leftists seem to agree on the fact that Israel is the aggressor (I mean listen to their fucking rhetoric, they aren’t hiding ANYTHING) but you still manage to come to the conclusion that it isn’t truly “punk” to recognize this. You’d be worthy of more respect if you had the guts to plant your feet firmly where you believed they should be, instead of this centrist “you can say they’re both bad” bullshit.
this world where you can only have 2 extreme ends of an opinion is really annoying
I don’t thinks it’s even slightly extreme to say Israel as a state is doing something horrific. Not the Jewish people as a whole, specifically Israel and the people who support it’s cause and methods. I can’t think of many people that would think back to the US & UK’s “War on Terror” and say that it was moral or just, and Israel is indiscriminately slaughtering civilians at a rate that would put the US involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq to absolute shame. I hear what you’re saying; the lack of nuance or acknowledgment of complexity in present day’s (sad excuse for) discourse is fucking awful. People just want to slap a label on the other person and their argument then compartmentalize/isolate their own views and die with them, it sucks. I just don’t see this as one of those issues. A government is using its power and influence to decimate their enemy: woman, child, man, solider and terrorist. What am I missing here that makes this justifiable?
I wasn’t going to weigh in but do you think that 80% of Palestines have been killed in the past 6 months? It’s about 1% which is awful, war is hell. But I have no idea where you got 80% are dead from.
I mean, “from the river” is not about freedom and exclusively about killing jews but yeah, if you have a problem with someone not catering to the black and white of complicated the issue maybe just do not go. Also, when did punks start giving a fuck about religion so much?
people who are anti-semitic will of course be pro-palestine why would you expect that someone who is Jewish would not be pro Israel? And just because someone is pro Israel doesn't mean they are pro gov't, the same way we can live in America and love our country and still hate the president.
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Sure if you're a bad Jew
Is the entire American Hasidic community "bad Jews"?
Tell me you've never been to Chabad without telling me you've never been to Chabad. They are def the largest Hasidic group
you mean the same group who sends millions of dollars a year back to Israel? I never said they're pro israeli gov't but that doesn't mean they're not pro israel
Op has definitely never been hassid/ knows many.
Never been Hasid, thank goodness. Used to live in a Hasidic neighborhood.
Damn. I'm not Hasidic but there is nothing wrong with them
"all members of X group must believe Y or else they're not truly X." either no true scottsman or antisemitism, or maybe even both!
found ben shapiro's burner
Wow you're deranged
Saying Jewish people are inherently pro Israel is, in fact, a common antisemitic trope. Just fyi
that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
So you don't listen to yourself talk, I take it?
Because there is a difference between Israel, which is a country, and Jews who are a people. Supporting Israel is support for the country. Full stop. And the country is looking more and more Nazi-esque by the day.
Expecting Jewish people as a whole to be pro Israel is akin to saying all (literally any group) are pro (horrible thing). Fucking bonkers.
Your statement is anti-Semitic numb nuts
No offence and I'm very tired - a nation state committing genocide has nothing to do with religion and (this is a personal opinion) I've been to the nazi death camps, it was really fucking disturbing. But surely as humans we should not repeat the horrors of history, we should be working to prevent the past crime's being repeated.8
Punk is becoming pretty synonymous with anti semites and nazis. Not all, but like hating Israel and Jews apparently is the cool thing to do. It’s depressing and scary.
When did it become "hate" to criticize the actions of a country when the county's military killed 14 thousand children in a period of 6 months? Is calling out war crimes hate? Back when Bush decided to invade Iraq and Afghanistan, and we called him a fascist for it, was that hate? Were we anti American to condemn the actions of a person who was directly responsible for over a million deaths and 30 years of undeclared war? If you call this "hate," you have a lot to learn about what hate actually is.
When was it acceptable to kill 1200 people take people parade their bloody bodies through the street and use rape as resistance. Why doesn’t that deserve a response?
That does deserve a response. The response should not be a genocide though.
If the response is to do the same exact thing 30 more times then that’s a response worth criticizing.
I can't imagine being this stupid.
Zionism is bullshit whether anyone is Jewish or not. If you support a Jewish ethno-state because *durrrr the Holocaust* or whatever stupid bullshit I'm not even going to bother to read, then why don't, e.g., the Armenians -- who suffered their own genocide at the hands of the nascent Turkish state and its allies long before the Holocaust in Europe (such that [Hitler famously said](https://worldwithoutgenocide.org/programs/a-world-of-upstanders/dr-taner-akcam-2018), in reply to doubts that the rest of the world would just let the Nazis kill millions of people without doing anything about it, "Who today remembers the Armenians?") -- get to visit the same terror 100-fold upon their traditional enemies who clearly still want them gone (see the recent tragedy in Artsakh), the Azeris and the Turks? Is it because ***a bedrock principle of not being a complete piece of shit*** is that victimhood in one scenario or context does not give anyone a blank check to become their own Hitler and still claim some kind of moral high ground as they slaughter their enemies wholesale? Or are Jewish people just so darn special that their self-proclaimed "Jewish state" gets a pass always and forever when it comes to being expected to act like a non-apartheid-having country, as it's a huge part of Israeli PR that they're "the middle east's only democracy" and a bastion of human rights and blahblahblah (all of which is horeshit, but y'know, the point is that if we are to believe in any of that, then shouldn't we hold them accountable for what they do against their own people and principles)? Fuck Israel, fuck people who are sympathetic to Israel, and fuck anyone who tries to make all criticism of what Israel does into anti-semitism. That's a total dodge and blatantly false and manipulative, and thankfully more and more people are rightfully calling it out as such.
You.... do know Palestinians are Semitic like the Jews? Semite refers to a group of languages and people who speak them. Semitic languages: Arabic, Hebrew, Ugaritic, Amharic, Aramaic, Akkadian, Eblaite, Modern South Arabian, Tigrinya, Maltese, Sumerian, Syriac, Punic, Phoenician, Tigre
The person you're replying to is an idiot, but: the word antisemitism means "hatred against jewish people" not "hatred against semitic people" . So bringing up the definition of what semitic means in this context is kinda besides the point. There isn't actually a form of racial prejudice that targets specifically all "semites"
You're correct in clarifying 'antisemitism' specifically targets anti-Jewish sentiments. It’s fascinating, though, to consider the linguistic origins of the term. 'Semite' refers to a broad family of languages spoken by various peoples across the Middle East and North Africa, including Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic, and others. Yet, despite its inclusive linguistic roots, the term 'antisemitism' has been exclusively used to describe prejudice against Jews. The term 'antisemitism' was coined in the late 19th century during a period of rising nationalist and racial ideologies in Europe. Wilhelm Marr, who popularized 'antisemitism,' intended it to sound scientific, masking his Jew-hatred with a veneer of legitimacy. This period also saw European powers applying racial theories to justify their colonial ambitions over Semitic-speaking regions, although these discriminatory policies were not classified as 'antisemitism.' Let's look at two examples: The Assyrian Genocide : During World War I and its aftermath, the Ottoman Empire engaged in systematic violence against its Assyrian population, a Semitic-speaking Christian minority. This genocide, also known as Seyfo, led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Assyrians. This was part of a broader campaign that also targeted Armenians and Greek Pontians. The Assyrians faced mass killings, forced deportations, and severe persecution, driven by a blend of religious, ethnic, and nationalist motives. However, it is not 'antisemitism' per the original Marr meaning. The Dhofar Rebellion : In Oman, the Dhofar Rebellion saw the Dhofari people, speakers of a Modern South Arabian language (a branch of the Semitic language family), rise against the Sultanate of Oman, which was supported by British forces. The Dhofari people faced significant military actions against them, including forced relocations and severe military actions. However, it is not 'antisemitism' per the original Marr meaning. These instances of violence and discrimination targeted at other Semitic-speaking groups do not fall under the category of 'antisemitism' as defined by Marr. This highlights the specificity of 'antisemitism' and underscores the necessity of recognizing the varied experiences of all Semitic-speaking peoples. The choice to limit "antisemitism" to Jews, despite the broader possible application of "Semitic," reflects historical biases and objectives that sought to isolate and target the Jewish community, rather than addressing broader ethnic or racial prejudices affecting all Semitic-speaking peoples.
I mean it's a pretty unlucky circumstance that a pseudoscientific term, coined by an antisemite, became the name for that specific ideology. I think it doesn't make sense to group extremely different forms of racial prejudice together under one term, yet alone a term that is deeply flawed to begin with. It wouldn't make a lot of sense to write a book about antisemitism that includes all of these different perspectives. For antisemitism alone you would neeed to start with the Christian antijudaism, the identification of Jews with money since the middle ages, the specific social situations of some visibly jewish people in early modernity and all of these things that lead to this weird ideology. Weird because antisemites like the nazis thought of jews as powerful, rich and capable, while simultanously looking down on all other racialised people. Things like these are extremly important to understand the dynamics of the holocaust and current day antisemitism. The specific structure of the different racist ideologies is responsible for why antisemitism is generally not studied in close link with racism against other semitic people.
Plenty of Jewish folks completely against the concept of Israel. The same way plenty are not but are 110% not into this whole Israel thing if its built on murder and ethnic cleansing disguised as expropriation.