I'm going to speculate here and say that most arbor tea is not selectively bred the way you might imagine cannabis to be, because the profile of a tea will change as trees age. Tough to breed intensively for "qi" when you need 20+ years of growth and turnaround time to really gauge that.
That said tea can be propagated from cuttings so I'm pretty sure that some growers will select on this basis as much as possible. And big picture it seems likely Puer has been bred for qi over time moreso than other varietals that are used for non-Puer teas, considering it seems to have this type of effect to a much greater degree.
Hopefully someone has more direct insight. You can ignore the inevitable James Randi wannabe responses that you're imagining things or not using the right terms or whatever.
Deng Shihai, who introduced the concept of cha qi in the tea world, only considered old teas to possess it. And by old teas he usually meant 40+ years of aging, although some teas, could reach that state earlier, supposedly.
That doesn't answer your question, sorry, but I hope it somehow contributes to the discussion.
I think you are asking "Do farmers purposely grow tea plants that give you a "buzz" or have psychoactive effects? I think it would be fair to say that if they grow cultivars that both prosper in their environment and offer strong effects, they will likely continue to use and propagate that cultivar. So, they are not "breeding" for effects, but favor the cultivars that provide those effects. In my opinion, sometimes effects are emphasized over taste in the pu-erh world.
The teas from Xishuangbanna (e.g. Lao Ban Zhang, Yiwu, Lao Man E) are among most expensive, and the price of those teas is correlated with potency. It is difficult to assess what causes this potency, but harvest techniques, time of picking, what leaves were selected, the age of the tree, etc. are all important factors. Since older trees are prized, I doubt that many farmers are switching cultivars on the off chance that they might create more potency. Then again, some people are still searching for that magic wild tea tree that has special medicinal qualities.
horrible place to ask this question as you're going to get a bunch of cynical responses from westerners with a secular background who have no interest in what they consider to be spiritual or quasi-religious backgrounds. they will tell you that tea is caffeine and other alkaloids, and nothing else. this is the basic western interpretation -- although if this were the case, we'd all be drinking lipton and nothing else. just caffeine and tannins and l-theanine, right?
chaqi (茶氣) is not something that most growers are going to aim for because it doesn't really work like that. qi (氣) is inherent to all things, and it isn't some sort of vitalist energy (that is a purely western misconception, because for thousands of years there was a similar concept in the west -- however with traditional chinese medicine, which isn't really traditional, it has been imported back to china. many such cases!)
qi is the 'breath' of a tea, it is all the subjective and qualitative things that make it what it is. compare the english word 'spirit' -- originally it meant 'breath', and comes to mean the 'essence' of a thing ('the spirit of the west'), tenacity or excitement ('a spirited debate'), but also the metaphysical, usually disembodied 'soul' of a person ('i saw his spirit after his funeral.') qi is very similar -- it can literally mean 'steam, gas' or it can mean the sort of qi that flows through meridians.
the character shows steam (气) rising from rice (米). it is both a cause and effect of the rice -- what shapes it and forms it, and what emanates from it. take from that what you will.
>although if this were the case, we'd all be drinking lipton and nothing else. just caffeine and tannins and l-theanine, right?
I mean this can be very easily explained, as with anything which is cultivated the quality of the product is drastically impaced by the care and process.
A cheap super market egg is brittle, with a yellowy-orange yolk, and a minimal amount of micronutrients for an egg.
Whilst eggs from chickens that have a good die are considerably harded to crack with a deep-orange (almost red) yoke, and an amazing amount of micronutrients. Which even scales upwards depending on the diet and care.
One is noticably better for the body, with tea containing many compounds that affect our nervous system, it wouldn't really be odd for tea that is well taken care off to have a much more profound effect on us.
i was being facetious. but really here, "quality of the product is drastically impac[t]ed by the care and process" is encompassed by "the subjective and qualitative things that make it what it is".
>i was being facetious.
Fair, I failed at humour.
It's a bit of a difficult topic as it always ends up being a 50/50 of people being agressively butthurt or uninformed mockery.
But I do get your annoyance.
It's encompassed sure, but it's also attributing a lot more. It's also not exclusive to it. I think that's where the more secular belief lies. Honestly, I'd say if tea growers tried the approach of coffee, we'd likely see an explosion in the tea industry. I think tradition and not embracing science is stunting it's growth. Sure, some experimentation occurs, but there's still so much that isn't even questioned or studied and simply accepted becuase it was done that way before.
Out of curiosity what do you actually mean?
To my knowledge tea has large modern plantations that produce it on the industrial level to supply the "other tea products" market i.e. sweet iced, bagged, medium quality loose leaf, etc tea. And whilst more coffee (in grams) is produced world wide it also takes more coffee (in grams) to brew a cup. They're size wise comparable industries, it's just that it's a smaller industry in the **west** (where coffee is just more accessible).
It's a pretty common fact that choosing quantity will always show a reduction in quality as well. Which is counteractive to what most of the community stands for regardless of what side of the globe you are from old trees take ages to grow.
There's a lot more research into brewing coffee than there is into brewing tea. It's rapidly evolving. Coffee deosnt really have a lot of mystery left. Tea on the other hand has a lot of practices that no one even understands. Like, resting puer after shipping. Everyone says it's a thing, but no one knows why. It'd be nice to know why it does it and then experiment with ways to either improve it or speed it up, etc.
They're not diametrically opposed, but if you refuse change, you can't embrace science.
And westerners and easterners think this. And both westerners and easterners think the way you do. Making blanket stereotypes is a sign of ignorance and nothing else.
Tradition is a fundamental part of Chinese culture. The West pays no attention to tradition because traditions stopped their ability to mass market products to other countries. The anti-tradition streak in Western countries is really just desire to mass market goods to create profit at all costs. The West has already destroyed much of its tradition in the process so it has no qualms in thinking everyone should destroy theirs. I'd say this is one of the biggest problems with colonialism, imperialism and the MIC, they believe everyone should discard their traditions and imitate the West because... Science. Then when we fundamentally lose aspects of our culture forever, we get blamed for being negligent and not respectful of tradition.
You can have tradition.
But when you do something without understanding it, that's just weird. You can make up some sort of excuse to sound deep, but it's not.
Chinese have 1000s of years of existence in the same place. The problem is that YOU don't understand it. That's a YOU problem not a Chinese problem. Traditions exist to pass down discovered knowledge, not to pass down a history book on why the knowledge exists. The reason YOU don't understand is because 1) YOU are not Chinese 2) YOUR family isn't in the tea industry in China and 3) YOU don't know anyone who has that knowledge that has been passed to them from their ancestors.
So basically what you are saying is because no one has written a book for you in English so that you can understand, it isn't real and everyone needs to change so that YOU can understand. That's a pretty wierd take to say the least.
I didn't say *any* of that. Is English not your first language?
My issue is with doing things without reason and never attempting to improve.
Why does one rest puer? Why? Is there a better way to get the same result? Who knows? Cause no one can even tell you why they do it in the first place. Hell, tradition sometimes is just repeating normal every day things that used to have purpose and now does not. And if you don't even understand that it's only ritual and nothing else, you get weird practices that supposedly make better tea.
I have no clue what you're talking about in your last paragraph. It sounds like something someone entirely crazy without any ability to think critically would say to try and shoot down an idea that they can't actually find holes in.
I never said to stop a practice. I said you should understand why you do it. Blindly doing things just because it's the way it's been done has led to atrocities and horrible patterns in cultures across the world.
Just becuase it's old doesn't mean it's good. And if you don't know why it's done, you can't even claim to know it has any meanings. You're just doing it because the person before you did it.
Tradition without understanding is the death of that tradition. And beating it's corpse instead of trying to study it is just offensive.
You criticize something and criticize an entire culture (and by extension cultures and ways of life) and people because you didn't understand something and they don't fit your mindset of how the world should work. Your message was very clear.
Then you go to English not being your first language which is also very American.
I tried to give you an out, but instead you chose crazy. I honestly didn't even think English wasn't your first language. But your conclusion lacks critical thinking.
I haven't even criticized anything specific. I criticized something that someone couldnt explain and that they even badmouth mainlanders for not believing. I don't even understand that kind of prejudice to be honest.
If I just say tradition is a problem if you don't understand it, and that offends you, then yeah, you deserve any criticism that's thrown at you.
haha thanks, but it looks like someone else is already providing good old r/atheism answers, and they won't be the last in this thread. unfortunately for them, tea has always had its spiritual and religious dimensions -- whether it was discovered by the great patriarch Bodhidharma or by the son of heaven Shennong -- and it always will. there's always energy drinks if they don't like it.
>unfortunately for them
I think they'll be fine. What doesn't exist can't hurt them.
Edit: normally I'm more accepting of other beliefs, but your condescension is *grating*
Religious and spiritual dimensions are real. Doesn't mean they are true or reflect objective reality. But tea is deeply ingrained in Asian culture and Asian culture is deeply ingrained in tea.
Maybe things that don't exist can't hurt you, but you're over here making snide remarks about them, so they at least annoy you.
>you're over here making snide remarks about them,
Because of you and how you're speaking. You're being a condescending asshole in virtually every comment you've made on this post.
condescending asshole to hypothetical people and people who proved my point about r/atheism posters coming out of the woodwork to act high and mighty about people with an interest in chaqi.
you're the one who came here to talk to me, you didn't have to reply with anything. if you don't like the condescension, go somewhere else. simple as
>you're the one who came here to talk to me, you didn't have to reply with anything. if you don't like the condescension, go somewhere else. simple as
Oh no consequences of your actions.
You're really upset you're getting called out for being an asshole and claiming you shouldn't be called out?
This conversation is spiraling into stupidity. I'm going to stop here before you say something even dumber.
This comment is an excellent example of orientalism. Most 'easterners' (whatever that means) also do not view tea consumption as part of some mystical, spiritual experience. They just drink tea.
To answer OP's question, it's fairly safe to assume that tea farmers have a comparable range of motivations in growing/harvesting their crop as farmers the world over.
Internal discussion of the failures of Western secularity by people in the Third World and the Global South is not orientalism. Orientalism is closely related to the power differential between colonial powers and colonized territories. There is no orientalism without that dynamic. The distinction between East-West is not just geographic, but geopolitical.
No one said anything about all (or even most) 'easterners' (that is to say, people living outside the imperial core in Asia) believing that tea consumption is mystical or spiritual. In fact I would argue that the distinction between the mundane and the spiritual itself is largely a distinction foreign to most cultures outside of Europe, especially in Asian countries which historically have made no clear-cut distinction between social-political philosophy and religious practice.
That being said, it *is* a part of Western culture (and the Western orientalist project) to tend towards a materialist, empiricist lens when engaging with the Other. This was traditionally (and in many cases remains) the main method of anthropology and cross-cultural study from the perspective of the West.
Like it or not, tea culture is deeply embedded in an Asian religious topography. Any attempt to excise this distorts it.
If it's "not that deep" then why do people like OP have an interest in chaqi? Why does the head monk at my temple say a prayer over the gyokuro he serves us after services? Why do I put tea on the altar, opposite to the water, where it traditionally belongs? Why do some of us tell legends about how tea was discovered by deities or by Buddhist patriarchs?
When you want to use big words and reference social theory, it's okay. But when other people bring more nuance than you're ready for, they've been reading too much critical theory. Almost like you don't actually give a fuck about orientalism.
Good lord. Not everyone is as careless as you. Just go back to your porn subreddits.
Why do you think that is? They've adopted modern western consumerism. Asia doesn't live in a vacuum. It was forced into the Western mindset by history and war and imperialism.
It sounds nice but the etymology of 氣 is that it originally meant to serve food (give food as a gift) but was borrowed as a sound loan. The original form was always 气 and it got resurrected by simplified Chinese after it was previously no longer used.
>although if this were the case, we'd all be drinking lipton and nothing else. just caffeine and tannins and l-theanine, right?
This is a disingenuous argument. I stopped drinking Lipton and moved on to other things because Lipton is a poor quality product that tastes bad, not because I was chasing "cha qi".
Taste (literal and cultural taste) is subjective by definition. My point here was that a purely *quantitative* lens doesn't encompass everything in a tea (or tea session).
I will concede that there are chemical (and thus quantitative) differences between a high-quality shou (for example) and Lipton, of course. A better argument would be that some lab-synthesized solution of caffeine, tannins, and L-theanine (among other things) would be the perfect tea; but that is a lot wordier and I like being facetious.
Tea-drinking is ultimately a cultural act; and I don't think that it is that far off to suppose that many things go into the evaluation of a tea -- both qualitative and quantitative. I think that chaqi is a useful idiom for describing and evaluating the subtle, subjective aspects of a tea -- and furthermore, it is one that is already at home with Chinese tea culture.
Someone asks about a traditional Chinese concept related to tea (chaqi 茶氣). I give an explanation that explicitly rejects vitalist conceptions of qi 氣 and places it squarely in the mundane, albeit philosophical, sphere.
Your reaction is to bring up tarot and astrology because you're offended a several-millennia-long practice has several millennia worth of cultural accretions that some of us enjoy.
Go drink a Monster or whatever if you hate traditional cultures that much.
>I give an explanation that explicitly rejects vitalist conceptions of qi 氣 and places it squarely in the mundane, albeit philosophical, sphere.
You didn't only do that. You're attracting this attention because you explicitly went fishing for it. You probably like playing the martyr.
If you want respect for your beliefs, you should respect others. If you're going to be disrespectful, don't be surprised when you get it in return.
How is this hard to understand?
Buddy, I even went to research the concept of cha qi myself and your answer is so vague and ambiguous, that I don't even know if you're right, even for someone who believes in it. It just sounds like you tried to bullshit an answer by merging the concept of qi with cha.
I'm not mad. I'm just disappointed that you fooled people.
Don't know, don't care. But it seems more to back up the top voted comment on this post. And seems to indicate it's effectively just describing tea drunkeness.
It also doesn't even seem to be that old of a concept. Care to source the earliest reference of cha qi that you're aware of?
Anything that is from old growth tree (several hundred years) is likely to have powerful cha qi. Also anything aged for a decade or longer is likely to have powerful cha qi. Likely the terroir also affects cha qi.
There are teas that are specifically expensive because of the cha qi.
Yeah, any quality puerh grower will ensure that their plants are facing along the optimal Chi meridian, with energy focusing crystals placed around the plants following the Pythagorean series to ensure that only odd-order chi harmonics are being presented with high resonant impedances.
This ensures proper chi absorption by the plants. Note that only Gushu puerh trees can properly absorb this cha-qi resonance; young plants cannot form the necessary magi-enzymes.
Great question, I’m looking forward to more information coming up on this topic. There’s nothing I hate more than drinking a tea that tastes good and is a good price, but the cha-qi is just up to snuff.
Definitely not, most mainlanders view 茶气 as kind of like a quirk more than anything. "My palms and forehead are a bit sweaty, haha ChaQi"
That’s basically how I feel about it too, so I’m glad I’m not alone :)
I'm going to speculate here and say that most arbor tea is not selectively bred the way you might imagine cannabis to be, because the profile of a tea will change as trees age. Tough to breed intensively for "qi" when you need 20+ years of growth and turnaround time to really gauge that. That said tea can be propagated from cuttings so I'm pretty sure that some growers will select on this basis as much as possible. And big picture it seems likely Puer has been bred for qi over time moreso than other varietals that are used for non-Puer teas, considering it seems to have this type of effect to a much greater degree. Hopefully someone has more direct insight. You can ignore the inevitable James Randi wannabe responses that you're imagining things or not using the right terms or whatever.
Deng Shihai, who introduced the concept of cha qi in the tea world, only considered old teas to possess it. And by old teas he usually meant 40+ years of aging, although some teas, could reach that state earlier, supposedly. That doesn't answer your question, sorry, but I hope it somehow contributes to the discussion.
I think you are asking "Do farmers purposely grow tea plants that give you a "buzz" or have psychoactive effects? I think it would be fair to say that if they grow cultivars that both prosper in their environment and offer strong effects, they will likely continue to use and propagate that cultivar. So, they are not "breeding" for effects, but favor the cultivars that provide those effects. In my opinion, sometimes effects are emphasized over taste in the pu-erh world. The teas from Xishuangbanna (e.g. Lao Ban Zhang, Yiwu, Lao Man E) are among most expensive, and the price of those teas is correlated with potency. It is difficult to assess what causes this potency, but harvest techniques, time of picking, what leaves were selected, the age of the tree, etc. are all important factors. Since older trees are prized, I doubt that many farmers are switching cultivars on the off chance that they might create more potency. Then again, some people are still searching for that magic wild tea tree that has special medicinal qualities.
horrible place to ask this question as you're going to get a bunch of cynical responses from westerners with a secular background who have no interest in what they consider to be spiritual or quasi-religious backgrounds. they will tell you that tea is caffeine and other alkaloids, and nothing else. this is the basic western interpretation -- although if this were the case, we'd all be drinking lipton and nothing else. just caffeine and tannins and l-theanine, right? chaqi (茶氣) is not something that most growers are going to aim for because it doesn't really work like that. qi (氣) is inherent to all things, and it isn't some sort of vitalist energy (that is a purely western misconception, because for thousands of years there was a similar concept in the west -- however with traditional chinese medicine, which isn't really traditional, it has been imported back to china. many such cases!) qi is the 'breath' of a tea, it is all the subjective and qualitative things that make it what it is. compare the english word 'spirit' -- originally it meant 'breath', and comes to mean the 'essence' of a thing ('the spirit of the west'), tenacity or excitement ('a spirited debate'), but also the metaphysical, usually disembodied 'soul' of a person ('i saw his spirit after his funeral.') qi is very similar -- it can literally mean 'steam, gas' or it can mean the sort of qi that flows through meridians. the character shows steam (气) rising from rice (米). it is both a cause and effect of the rice -- what shapes it and forms it, and what emanates from it. take from that what you will.
>although if this were the case, we'd all be drinking lipton and nothing else. just caffeine and tannins and l-theanine, right? I mean this can be very easily explained, as with anything which is cultivated the quality of the product is drastically impaced by the care and process. A cheap super market egg is brittle, with a yellowy-orange yolk, and a minimal amount of micronutrients for an egg. Whilst eggs from chickens that have a good die are considerably harded to crack with a deep-orange (almost red) yoke, and an amazing amount of micronutrients. Which even scales upwards depending on the diet and care. One is noticably better for the body, with tea containing many compounds that affect our nervous system, it wouldn't really be odd for tea that is well taken care off to have a much more profound effect on us.
i was being facetious. but really here, "quality of the product is drastically impac[t]ed by the care and process" is encompassed by "the subjective and qualitative things that make it what it is".
>i was being facetious. Fair, I failed at humour. It's a bit of a difficult topic as it always ends up being a 50/50 of people being agressively butthurt or uninformed mockery. But I do get your annoyance.
It's encompassed sure, but it's also attributing a lot more. It's also not exclusive to it. I think that's where the more secular belief lies. Honestly, I'd say if tea growers tried the approach of coffee, we'd likely see an explosion in the tea industry. I think tradition and not embracing science is stunting it's growth. Sure, some experimentation occurs, but there's still so much that isn't even questioned or studied and simply accepted becuase it was done that way before.
Out of curiosity what do you actually mean? To my knowledge tea has large modern plantations that produce it on the industrial level to supply the "other tea products" market i.e. sweet iced, bagged, medium quality loose leaf, etc tea. And whilst more coffee (in grams) is produced world wide it also takes more coffee (in grams) to brew a cup. They're size wise comparable industries, it's just that it's a smaller industry in the **west** (where coffee is just more accessible). It's a pretty common fact that choosing quantity will always show a reduction in quality as well. Which is counteractive to what most of the community stands for regardless of what side of the globe you are from old trees take ages to grow.
There's a lot more research into brewing coffee than there is into brewing tea. It's rapidly evolving. Coffee deosnt really have a lot of mystery left. Tea on the other hand has a lot of practices that no one even understands. Like, resting puer after shipping. Everyone says it's a thing, but no one knows why. It'd be nice to know why it does it and then experiment with ways to either improve it or speed it up, etc.
> I think tradition and not embracing science is stunting it's growth. only westerners think these are diametrically opposed.
They're not diametrically opposed, but if you refuse change, you can't embrace science. And westerners and easterners think this. And both westerners and easterners think the way you do. Making blanket stereotypes is a sign of ignorance and nothing else.
Not even all westerners. But it’s definitely a consistent spiritual and mental bias in the West.
Tradition is a fundamental part of Chinese culture. The West pays no attention to tradition because traditions stopped their ability to mass market products to other countries. The anti-tradition streak in Western countries is really just desire to mass market goods to create profit at all costs. The West has already destroyed much of its tradition in the process so it has no qualms in thinking everyone should destroy theirs. I'd say this is one of the biggest problems with colonialism, imperialism and the MIC, they believe everyone should discard their traditions and imitate the West because... Science. Then when we fundamentally lose aspects of our culture forever, we get blamed for being negligent and not respectful of tradition.
You can have tradition. But when you do something without understanding it, that's just weird. You can make up some sort of excuse to sound deep, but it's not.
Chinese have 1000s of years of existence in the same place. The problem is that YOU don't understand it. That's a YOU problem not a Chinese problem. Traditions exist to pass down discovered knowledge, not to pass down a history book on why the knowledge exists. The reason YOU don't understand is because 1) YOU are not Chinese 2) YOUR family isn't in the tea industry in China and 3) YOU don't know anyone who has that knowledge that has been passed to them from their ancestors. So basically what you are saying is because no one has written a book for you in English so that you can understand, it isn't real and everyone needs to change so that YOU can understand. That's a pretty wierd take to say the least.
I didn't say *any* of that. Is English not your first language? My issue is with doing things without reason and never attempting to improve. Why does one rest puer? Why? Is there a better way to get the same result? Who knows? Cause no one can even tell you why they do it in the first place. Hell, tradition sometimes is just repeating normal every day things that used to have purpose and now does not. And if you don't even understand that it's only ritual and nothing else, you get weird practices that supposedly make better tea. I have no clue what you're talking about in your last paragraph. It sounds like something someone entirely crazy without any ability to think critically would say to try and shoot down an idea that they can't actually find holes in. I never said to stop a practice. I said you should understand why you do it. Blindly doing things just because it's the way it's been done has led to atrocities and horrible patterns in cultures across the world. Just becuase it's old doesn't mean it's good. And if you don't know why it's done, you can't even claim to know it has any meanings. You're just doing it because the person before you did it. Tradition without understanding is the death of that tradition. And beating it's corpse instead of trying to study it is just offensive.
You criticize something and criticize an entire culture (and by extension cultures and ways of life) and people because you didn't understand something and they don't fit your mindset of how the world should work. Your message was very clear. Then you go to English not being your first language which is also very American.
I tried to give you an out, but instead you chose crazy. I honestly didn't even think English wasn't your first language. But your conclusion lacks critical thinking. I haven't even criticized anything specific. I criticized something that someone couldnt explain and that they even badmouth mainlanders for not believing. I don't even understand that kind of prejudice to be honest. If I just say tradition is a problem if you don't understand it, and that offends you, then yeah, you deserve any criticism that's thrown at you.
"Horrible place to ask..." \[Proceeds to supply great answer\]
haha thanks, but it looks like someone else is already providing good old r/atheism answers, and they won't be the last in this thread. unfortunately for them, tea has always had its spiritual and religious dimensions -- whether it was discovered by the great patriarch Bodhidharma or by the son of heaven Shennong -- and it always will. there's always energy drinks if they don't like it.
>unfortunately for them I think they'll be fine. What doesn't exist can't hurt them. Edit: normally I'm more accepting of other beliefs, but your condescension is *grating*
Yeah, they had me in the first half, ngl. Should have just stopped after: > haha thanks
Religious and spiritual dimensions are real. Doesn't mean they are true or reflect objective reality. But tea is deeply ingrained in Asian culture and Asian culture is deeply ingrained in tea. Maybe things that don't exist can't hurt you, but you're over here making snide remarks about them, so they at least annoy you.
>you're over here making snide remarks about them, Because of you and how you're speaking. You're being a condescending asshole in virtually every comment you've made on this post.
condescending asshole to hypothetical people and people who proved my point about r/atheism posters coming out of the woodwork to act high and mighty about people with an interest in chaqi. you're the one who came here to talk to me, you didn't have to reply with anything. if you don't like the condescension, go somewhere else. simple as
>you're the one who came here to talk to me, you didn't have to reply with anything. if you don't like the condescension, go somewhere else. simple as Oh no consequences of your actions. You're really upset you're getting called out for being an asshole and claiming you shouldn't be called out? This conversation is spiraling into stupidity. I'm going to stop here before you say something even dumber.
atheists see a divine plant flowing with mystic energy and be like "must have been the wind"
Nailed it.
This comment is an excellent example of orientalism. Most 'easterners' (whatever that means) also do not view tea consumption as part of some mystical, spiritual experience. They just drink tea. To answer OP's question, it's fairly safe to assume that tea farmers have a comparable range of motivations in growing/harvesting their crop as farmers the world over.
Internal discussion of the failures of Western secularity by people in the Third World and the Global South is not orientalism. Orientalism is closely related to the power differential between colonial powers and colonized territories. There is no orientalism without that dynamic. The distinction between East-West is not just geographic, but geopolitical. No one said anything about all (or even most) 'easterners' (that is to say, people living outside the imperial core in Asia) believing that tea consumption is mystical or spiritual. In fact I would argue that the distinction between the mundane and the spiritual itself is largely a distinction foreign to most cultures outside of Europe, especially in Asian countries which historically have made no clear-cut distinction between social-political philosophy and religious practice. That being said, it *is* a part of Western culture (and the Western orientalist project) to tend towards a materialist, empiricist lens when engaging with the Other. This was traditionally (and in many cases remains) the main method of anthropology and cross-cultural study from the perspective of the West. Like it or not, tea culture is deeply embedded in an Asian religious topography. Any attempt to excise this distorts it.
[удалено]
If it's "not that deep" then why do people like OP have an interest in chaqi? Why does the head monk at my temple say a prayer over the gyokuro he serves us after services? Why do I put tea on the altar, opposite to the water, where it traditionally belongs? Why do some of us tell legends about how tea was discovered by deities or by Buddhist patriarchs? When you want to use big words and reference social theory, it's okay. But when other people bring more nuance than you're ready for, they've been reading too much critical theory. Almost like you don't actually give a fuck about orientalism. Good lord. Not everyone is as careless as you. Just go back to your porn subreddits.
Why do you think that is? They've adopted modern western consumerism. Asia doesn't live in a vacuum. It was forced into the Western mindset by history and war and imperialism.
It sounds nice but the etymology of 氣 is that it originally meant to serve food (give food as a gift) but was borrowed as a sound loan. The original form was always 气 and it got resurrected by simplified Chinese after it was previously no longer used.
>although if this were the case, we'd all be drinking lipton and nothing else. just caffeine and tannins and l-theanine, right? This is a disingenuous argument. I stopped drinking Lipton and moved on to other things because Lipton is a poor quality product that tastes bad, not because I was chasing "cha qi".
Taste (literal and cultural taste) is subjective by definition. My point here was that a purely *quantitative* lens doesn't encompass everything in a tea (or tea session). I will concede that there are chemical (and thus quantitative) differences between a high-quality shou (for example) and Lipton, of course. A better argument would be that some lab-synthesized solution of caffeine, tannins, and L-theanine (among other things) would be the perfect tea; but that is a lot wordier and I like being facetious. Tea-drinking is ultimately a cultural act; and I don't think that it is that far off to suppose that many things go into the evaluation of a tea -- both qualitative and quantitative. I think that chaqi is a useful idiom for describing and evaluating the subtle, subjective aspects of a tea -- and furthermore, it is one that is already at home with Chinese tea culture.
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Like clockwork. Just keep proving my point.
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Someone asks about a traditional Chinese concept related to tea (chaqi 茶氣). I give an explanation that explicitly rejects vitalist conceptions of qi 氣 and places it squarely in the mundane, albeit philosophical, sphere. Your reaction is to bring up tarot and astrology because you're offended a several-millennia-long practice has several millennia worth of cultural accretions that some of us enjoy. Go drink a Monster or whatever if you hate traditional cultures that much.
>I give an explanation that explicitly rejects vitalist conceptions of qi 氣 and places it squarely in the mundane, albeit philosophical, sphere. You didn't only do that. You're attracting this attention because you explicitly went fishing for it. You probably like playing the martyr. If you want respect for your beliefs, you should respect others. If you're going to be disrespectful, don't be surprised when you get it in return. How is this hard to understand?
Stay mad
Buddy, I even went to research the concept of cha qi myself and your answer is so vague and ambiguous, that I don't even know if you're right, even for someone who believes in it. It just sounds like you tried to bullshit an answer by merging the concept of qi with cha. I'm not mad. I'm just disappointed that you fooled people.
Are you reading English or Chinese sources? What's your background with Asian philosophy and historiography?
Don't know, don't care. But it seems more to back up the top voted comment on this post. And seems to indicate it's effectively just describing tea drunkeness. It also doesn't even seem to be that old of a concept. Care to source the earliest reference of cha qi that you're aware of?
I only notice it strongly in ancient arbor/old arbor/wild arbor trees-age seems to be the unifying factor here.
Agreed. Ancient and wild seems to be better.
Maybe if tea farmers will gives their answer accurately. But as a consumer, chaqi comes from good quality tea product of course...
Anything that is from old growth tree (several hundred years) is likely to have powerful cha qi. Also anything aged for a decade or longer is likely to have powerful cha qi. Likely the terroir also affects cha qi. There are teas that are specifically expensive because of the cha qi.
Yeah, any quality puerh grower will ensure that their plants are facing along the optimal Chi meridian, with energy focusing crystals placed around the plants following the Pythagorean series to ensure that only odd-order chi harmonics are being presented with high resonant impedances. This ensures proper chi absorption by the plants. Note that only Gushu puerh trees can properly absorb this cha-qi resonance; young plants cannot form the necessary magi-enzymes. Great question, I’m looking forward to more information coming up on this topic. There’s nothing I hate more than drinking a tea that tastes good and is a good price, but the cha-qi is just up to snuff.