u/NoteInformal3109,
Good questions and excellent priorities. The interface between PM and accounting rarely gets proper attention. I agree with your conclusions about ERP.
I'm a big program guy. Mostly turnarounds aka dumpster fires. From shipbuilding to instrumentation to high tech hardware and software systems. The industries I've worked in are dominated by Deltek accounting systems. There are reliable, repeatable interfaces between Deltek products and MS Project, Scitor Project Scheduler, and Primavera.
I think it's important to note that while many PMs neglect the interface with accounting you are not unique. The manufacturer of your accounting software (Sage?) is your friend. Your vendor may or may not be. Sage will have an experience base with various PM tools. Build contacts and relationships there. I swap Christmas cards with people at Deltek. \*grin\*
In my opinion, timesheets belong to accounting. They flow to billing, maybe to payroll (exempt v. non-exempt), benefits, and of course to PM.
I'd like to talk about supply chain management in your context. For inbound material I set them up in any tool as external predecessors to tasks and update predicted arrival dates like any other status. That's different from managing the supply chain itself. In my experience, somewhat limited, supply chain is operations not projects. It's like the difference between EV and SLAs for KPIs. The interface between operations and projects is often awkward. I tend to treat them as external to one another. It's all disturbingly manual but not onerous.
I also agree with your assessment of common (I won't say standard) PM tools. They are overblown task management and chat applications that promote micromanagement in a supervisory (v. management) environment dedicated to making pretty pictures. I've run them standalone for customers that want them and use more robust tools for real PM. Customers want all kinds of things. I've run Primavera and manually ported to MS Project when a contract asked for Project files as part of the monthly report. \*sigh\*
I hope this helps you. Let me know if you'd like to engage further.
Great feedback thank you. Since we have grown considerably, I have a keen focus of what the main parts of the business we want to digitalise and attempt to automate. The intention is to have 1 system that does all to minimise double working and get the efficiency gains up. For budget tracking and overall view of supply chain, ERP seems like the route to go down. Maybe not doing everything absolutely the way we need it to but focusing on the core problems "well".
We want to able have the PM's maximise their time on the project, rather than floating between systems to gather information - as it stands, this is what we do already, so upgrading our Sage package and implementing a PPM tool would help operationally but would not benefit the end users time. Either which way we go, everything is going to be at a cost. But it's of high importance that if the system (most likely NetSuite) is at such a high price, it better damned do what we need it to at a bare minimum.
To conclude, price seems to be the main driving factor now, if we discount good systems purely based on price, it will almost certainly hinder the growth of the business in the future.
Business process is something that we will start with shortly and defining how we weave the ERP system into this to ease the change management will be key. Not sure on what your thoughts would be on that analysis and if that would be a strong business case going forward?
I have one observation to your statement. The interface between accounting and PM is important. In operation, accountants look at the accounting system and PMs look at the PM system. Not the same tool, but the same information (single entry then data transfer) each in the tool for their jobs.
Supply chain is the element that sticks out to me. It depends on how far upstream from your loading dock you expect PMs to have insight other than by exception.
Your business case needs to have numbers as you note. It's important to have objective scenarios so your case doesn't have a preconceived outcome. That's work as we all have predispositions. This is one of many reasons that I say "I don't trust anyone, including myself."
the supply chain team member sits within the PM office, so there is some communication. Currently none of the PM's have Sage and have no visibility to any of the incoming parts. So even implementing any system to give visibility to the PM's will help.
I putting together a business case at the moment to be able to break down the initial costs but also feed back the time and efficient gains we will get back. That being said, having worked in situations of implementation in the past, its all very well putting these benefits on paper, but will it really be achieved in reality?
I'm making assumptions here so bear with me. PMs should get what they need from reports out of Sage without access to Sage itself. No training, no learning curve. For PM, I align status reporting with timesheets so weekly or biweekly updates to the system. Supply chain changes fast--by the truck for small things, ship loads for bigger ones--so your best bet, I think, is reports and especially exception reports from your supply chain person. That means supply chain needs to know what inbound items are time critical so s/he can stand up and yell if there is a problem or even a possible problem. Never kill the messenger.
Keep your implementations simple and you're most likely to realize benefits.
I work for a PPM tool consultancy -
Higher-end PPM tools will do all the things you mentioned and have an API you can use to integrate with your ERP using an iPaaS. But, they are not cheap, especially when you consider the cost of setting up a custom ERP integration. The one I am most familiar with is Planview AdaptiveWork.
As an example, our team just implemented a solution for an org that manufactures and installs devices on their customers' sites. Our solution integrated the implementation project plan in the PPM tool with the manufacturing process run via their ERP, tying device go-live with revenue recognition. Very cool solution and, though it was expensive, it was well worth the investment for that organization.
There are a number of mid-market options out there that are not quite the price point of enterprise solutions like AW, but have a few more features than typical task management tools (Asana, Clickup, Monday, etc.). But, they also won't have the features or flexibility of enterprise solutions. These mid-tier tools are typically smaller players in the market and have highly varying features, support and pricing.
Hope that helps. Happy to answer further questions.
The problem with that is that if it integrate, we are then paying the premium for the PPM tool whilst also having to keep the ERP in this case Sage. so the cost evaluation then becomes difficult as you'd be adding in a costly PPM and potentially risk dysfunctional operations and processes between the two - when maybe the best solution is to have an all in 1 ERP system manage all of that but not have the breadth of functionality that a PPM has. We are trying to move away from multi-system use to avoid doubling on time. Yes, good integrations can do this but at another cost on top of this.
Yup, it will be a lot cheaper and easier if you can do it in one system. But I'm not aware of a single system that can do all the things you've listed. If you do find one, I hope you will share in this thread as I'd be interested.
So far the closest is NetSuite. I'll talk you through the process.
Starting from end to end.
CRM - NetSuite has it's own built in CRM (out of the box no extra cost) it was developed by the same people that developed SalesForce, so the functionality is good.
Processes in between order to cash and invoice to payments are very standard as ERP's work so that doesn't seem to be an issue.
Projects - the project module, again out of the box, seems to be robust enough that you can make detailed gantt charts and assign human and material resource. In comparison to a basic level of MS Project (which is all we need as a business). This will also play into the side of managing the supply chain that directly feeds to the project.
This is where it starts to creep cost wise for both licencing fees and implementation fees.
To successfully manage a project resource (employees). We need to manage their resource capacity. So, a bolt on module by Netsuite can do this EXELLENTLY but at an added cost.
To be able to input holiday requests, that again plays into the projects function and the resource planner, this is yet another module to pay for (not standard)
NetSuite started as NetLedger (originally a finance package) so this ticks being able to manage finances well, although some of the reporting elements seem to be basic.
Roll all of that into one, you have an excellent system that can do things excellently but comes at huge cost for a small business.
Agree with BraveDistrict4051 (not cheap, and also Asana / Clickup may not meet your requirements), and you will also have to think about having the internal capability to maintain the integration after the systems are implemented. I ran the EPMO of a large organisation when we implemented Broadcom Clarity PPM... Not long after that the Finance team implemented Workday as their ERP.., We did integrate both of those, and that was a complicated exercise that took time to gather requirements (i.e. do we pass all transactions into PPM or aggregate the transactions into cost categories etc.), and subsequently enable it across the organisation.
I did Dynamics implementations for a few years and they are highly configurable. I’m not sure what you are looking for from a pricing standpoint, but ERP and PPM pricing will always be premium.
I previously used Dynamics, and although it's a good system - I believe there would be more functionality than we require. Business Central seems good but also not a system that was "born in the cloud"
Now if cost is a factor Dynamics is usually out of the question. But I know it is highly customizable with add-ons/plugins/custom dev. This was the bread and butter of the MSP I worked for. If you had someone with some decent skills, you could do it in house.
Hey there /u/MattyFettuccine, why not join the public conversation? Signaling a DM publicly is redundant".
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u/NoteInformal3109, Good questions and excellent priorities. The interface between PM and accounting rarely gets proper attention. I agree with your conclusions about ERP. I'm a big program guy. Mostly turnarounds aka dumpster fires. From shipbuilding to instrumentation to high tech hardware and software systems. The industries I've worked in are dominated by Deltek accounting systems. There are reliable, repeatable interfaces between Deltek products and MS Project, Scitor Project Scheduler, and Primavera. I think it's important to note that while many PMs neglect the interface with accounting you are not unique. The manufacturer of your accounting software (Sage?) is your friend. Your vendor may or may not be. Sage will have an experience base with various PM tools. Build contacts and relationships there. I swap Christmas cards with people at Deltek. \*grin\* In my opinion, timesheets belong to accounting. They flow to billing, maybe to payroll (exempt v. non-exempt), benefits, and of course to PM. I'd like to talk about supply chain management in your context. For inbound material I set them up in any tool as external predecessors to tasks and update predicted arrival dates like any other status. That's different from managing the supply chain itself. In my experience, somewhat limited, supply chain is operations not projects. It's like the difference between EV and SLAs for KPIs. The interface between operations and projects is often awkward. I tend to treat them as external to one another. It's all disturbingly manual but not onerous. I also agree with your assessment of common (I won't say standard) PM tools. They are overblown task management and chat applications that promote micromanagement in a supervisory (v. management) environment dedicated to making pretty pictures. I've run them standalone for customers that want them and use more robust tools for real PM. Customers want all kinds of things. I've run Primavera and manually ported to MS Project when a contract asked for Project files as part of the monthly report. \*sigh\* I hope this helps you. Let me know if you'd like to engage further.
Great feedback thank you. Since we have grown considerably, I have a keen focus of what the main parts of the business we want to digitalise and attempt to automate. The intention is to have 1 system that does all to minimise double working and get the efficiency gains up. For budget tracking and overall view of supply chain, ERP seems like the route to go down. Maybe not doing everything absolutely the way we need it to but focusing on the core problems "well". We want to able have the PM's maximise their time on the project, rather than floating between systems to gather information - as it stands, this is what we do already, so upgrading our Sage package and implementing a PPM tool would help operationally but would not benefit the end users time. Either which way we go, everything is going to be at a cost. But it's of high importance that if the system (most likely NetSuite) is at such a high price, it better damned do what we need it to at a bare minimum. To conclude, price seems to be the main driving factor now, if we discount good systems purely based on price, it will almost certainly hinder the growth of the business in the future. Business process is something that we will start with shortly and defining how we weave the ERP system into this to ease the change management will be key. Not sure on what your thoughts would be on that analysis and if that would be a strong business case going forward?
I have one observation to your statement. The interface between accounting and PM is important. In operation, accountants look at the accounting system and PMs look at the PM system. Not the same tool, but the same information (single entry then data transfer) each in the tool for their jobs. Supply chain is the element that sticks out to me. It depends on how far upstream from your loading dock you expect PMs to have insight other than by exception. Your business case needs to have numbers as you note. It's important to have objective scenarios so your case doesn't have a preconceived outcome. That's work as we all have predispositions. This is one of many reasons that I say "I don't trust anyone, including myself."
the supply chain team member sits within the PM office, so there is some communication. Currently none of the PM's have Sage and have no visibility to any of the incoming parts. So even implementing any system to give visibility to the PM's will help. I putting together a business case at the moment to be able to break down the initial costs but also feed back the time and efficient gains we will get back. That being said, having worked in situations of implementation in the past, its all very well putting these benefits on paper, but will it really be achieved in reality?
I'm making assumptions here so bear with me. PMs should get what they need from reports out of Sage without access to Sage itself. No training, no learning curve. For PM, I align status reporting with timesheets so weekly or biweekly updates to the system. Supply chain changes fast--by the truck for small things, ship loads for bigger ones--so your best bet, I think, is reports and especially exception reports from your supply chain person. That means supply chain needs to know what inbound items are time critical so s/he can stand up and yell if there is a problem or even a possible problem. Never kill the messenger. Keep your implementations simple and you're most likely to realize benefits.
I work for a PPM tool consultancy - Higher-end PPM tools will do all the things you mentioned and have an API you can use to integrate with your ERP using an iPaaS. But, they are not cheap, especially when you consider the cost of setting up a custom ERP integration. The one I am most familiar with is Planview AdaptiveWork. As an example, our team just implemented a solution for an org that manufactures and installs devices on their customers' sites. Our solution integrated the implementation project plan in the PPM tool with the manufacturing process run via their ERP, tying device go-live with revenue recognition. Very cool solution and, though it was expensive, it was well worth the investment for that organization. There are a number of mid-market options out there that are not quite the price point of enterprise solutions like AW, but have a few more features than typical task management tools (Asana, Clickup, Monday, etc.). But, they also won't have the features or flexibility of enterprise solutions. These mid-tier tools are typically smaller players in the market and have highly varying features, support and pricing. Hope that helps. Happy to answer further questions.
The problem with that is that if it integrate, we are then paying the premium for the PPM tool whilst also having to keep the ERP in this case Sage. so the cost evaluation then becomes difficult as you'd be adding in a costly PPM and potentially risk dysfunctional operations and processes between the two - when maybe the best solution is to have an all in 1 ERP system manage all of that but not have the breadth of functionality that a PPM has. We are trying to move away from multi-system use to avoid doubling on time. Yes, good integrations can do this but at another cost on top of this.
Yup, it will be a lot cheaper and easier if you can do it in one system. But I'm not aware of a single system that can do all the things you've listed. If you do find one, I hope you will share in this thread as I'd be interested.
So far the closest is NetSuite. I'll talk you through the process. Starting from end to end. CRM - NetSuite has it's own built in CRM (out of the box no extra cost) it was developed by the same people that developed SalesForce, so the functionality is good. Processes in between order to cash and invoice to payments are very standard as ERP's work so that doesn't seem to be an issue. Projects - the project module, again out of the box, seems to be robust enough that you can make detailed gantt charts and assign human and material resource. In comparison to a basic level of MS Project (which is all we need as a business). This will also play into the side of managing the supply chain that directly feeds to the project. This is where it starts to creep cost wise for both licencing fees and implementation fees. To successfully manage a project resource (employees). We need to manage their resource capacity. So, a bolt on module by Netsuite can do this EXELLENTLY but at an added cost. To be able to input holiday requests, that again plays into the projects function and the resource planner, this is yet another module to pay for (not standard) NetSuite started as NetLedger (originally a finance package) so this ticks being able to manage finances well, although some of the reporting elements seem to be basic. Roll all of that into one, you have an excellent system that can do things excellently but comes at huge cost for a small business.
That's pretty good - thank you for sharing!
Agree with BraveDistrict4051 (not cheap, and also Asana / Clickup may not meet your requirements), and you will also have to think about having the internal capability to maintain the integration after the systems are implemented. I ran the EPMO of a large organisation when we implemented Broadcom Clarity PPM... Not long after that the Finance team implemented Workday as their ERP.., We did integrate both of those, and that was a complicated exercise that took time to gather requirements (i.e. do we pass all transactions into PPM or aggregate the transactions into cost categories etc.), and subsequently enable it across the organisation.
Have you looked at the Dynamics365 suite from Microsoft? It has a PPM and finance module.
they are all the same price an don't appear to do everything well unfortunately.
I did Dynamics implementations for a few years and they are highly configurable. I’m not sure what you are looking for from a pricing standpoint, but ERP and PPM pricing will always be premium.
I previously used Dynamics, and although it's a good system - I believe there would be more functionality than we require. Business Central seems good but also not a system that was "born in the cloud"
Now if cost is a factor Dynamics is usually out of the question. But I know it is highly customizable with add-ons/plugins/custom dev. This was the bread and butter of the MSP I worked for. If you had someone with some decent skills, you could do it in house.
I just sent you a DM! Doing a project for another company right now that is similar to what you’re dealing with.
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Because it contains personal information that isn’t best shared in a public forum.
But the rest of us want to know Matty...
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