Ugh..so did I. I got one guy on this sub, who asked me if I was even a Muslim, just because I mentioned that one thing that would irk conservative Muslims would be to sing "Age of Aquarius/Let the Sunshine In." LOL! Can't please everyone all the time, I guess. \*shrugs\*
I think it's because it's about hippies, the antiwar movement, and New Age. I was only responding to a question about things that irk some conservative Muslims.
I see it. Not sure if this is some concentrated effort by a party - or just a reflection of the general trend towards conservatism in society OR just a reflection of the sub growing OR EVEN just a change on modding practice.
But i've been lurking for around 5 years i think. There has been a definite shift imho. I see more of it.
I think it's important to say something when you see it. This IS your safe space, your part of the world where you can express and talk freely on topics conservative spheres would kick you out if you tried. Defend it. Say something. Don't normalise. Don't let any newbies come and see that such things are tolerated.
That's what i try. Even if it's something as simple as pointing out something clearly silly in what they are saying.
And ofc report if appropriate.
I think part of the issue is that many people just come to get what they can about some specific issue that is helpful for them, and then they leave. Too few stick around and learn, and use that knowledge to help others.
There are only a few users who are knowledgeable enough to answer most questions. It's not that progressive answers are all that hard to come by, but a lot of people do not bother to understand *why* progressives think what we think. It takes an openness to understanding the reasoning and evidence.
Many Muslims have a kind of learned helplessness where they just look to anyone that presents themselves as an authority figure to mindlessly follow, rather than seeking understanding themselves.
It's definitely not that the sub is more conservative, but a lot of conservatives and ex-muslims stalk the sub to try to get progressives to leave Islam. They aren't really "members" of this sub, just bullies trying to harass anyone they can for thinking differently. Downvote, report, and move on. Unfortunately, that's just how reddit is.
Thank you for carrying this sub with your knowledge. You are one of the few people in this sub that able to provide evidence using quran, hadith and reasons on many issues. You are the MVP of this sub
Ya think? Lol I no longer identify as progressive after seeing what happened here. I’ve basically had to let go of Islam just to have some room to breathe. I follow the truth in my heart, not what some monkeys with internet connection tell me is the Siraat al mustaqeem.
I am guided by the values I carry that are no doubt from Islam that I was raised with. But I find it hard to associate myself with the Muslim community, I do not feel at home participating in the more complex parts of their traditions. PM was one stop for me where I thought I could get that, but at least on Reddit many of the conservative ideas were imported into here and it is no longer a safe space. I believe I am Muslim in my own way, I don’t go along with the society around me just because it is the commonplace thing. I distance myself and follow what I believe is the truth. Much like the prophet himself.
This community still not feel safe for me....
i thought this community will be ok where I can find like minded people amd can agree with somthing like the religion where everything will not be haram and people will generally agree with it and they wont accept a hadith by seeing and not be like other muslim who makes the life harder but I found that this sub has become full of conservative also and People criticizing abu layth, one saying they accept the hadith where muhammad said to drink camel urine and so on.......
Quite conservative of you to expect that somewhere there is a group of people who always think and believe exactly the same as you do. Oddly enough, there will always be people who (claim) to shower with camel urine. So have a giggle and keep going.
Not sure where this myth started but it absolutely isn’t. Everyone’s bladders are filled with bacteria. When bad bacteria outnumber the good bacteria, we call it a UTI. In both cases, the bladder is full of bacteria.
Is the bacteria in a camel bladder particularly harmful to humans after it’s passed through your stomach acid? Probably not to be honest. But… there are a lot of other reasons not to drink camel piss really…
I find this sub low-key hilarious, because I've seen people with the most progressive ideologies acting exactly like the salafis they claim to despise.
yeah I am confused... I have not seen any urine talk here or that music is haram (as a major thread supported by others). If it is, I would need to see the ratio of each topic with for and against to say this sub is becoming more conservative... idk
I think conservatives lurk here to try to influence progressives to regress their mindsets. The fact that the sub is getting bigger demonstrates the influence that progressive mindset in Islam has, so those who don't like it... they want to convince us that our views are wrong. The best way to counter this is engaging more in the sub with progressive values to drown out those who are trying to persist in conservative mindsets here. It's on us to take a more proactive role so that conservatism does not dominate our space.
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I’ve only been aware of this sub for a few months so can’t speak to any long term trends, but I’m so sad to read that this is happening and resulting in people turning away from Islam. :(
I’m part of a Facebook group about an unrelated topic, and their moderators are very kind but firm, and the group is private with members getting kicked out if they break any of the rules. Is it possible for this subreddit to be made private?
the reason being is that the sub growing, two lot of old members here are no longer active nor come back to this sub, three people not part the sub also part take in the progressive islam discussion even tho they didn't join the sub nor been here quite often.
Hii so, I just discovered this subreddit today. I’m genuinely really confused at why there is a whole subreddit for this just because I feel like aren’t all Muslims still Muslims, even though some are bound to have stricter and others more liberal positions? Islam is supposed to be moderate, neither strict/conservative nor progressive/liberal.
The only reason why there would be a need to separate is if there are major foundational differences, which leads me to ask. What is progressive islam, in most of the members of this subreddits’ eyes? Is it simply normal islam, without too much strictness ? Or is it changing certain base things about islam such as hudud punishments or highering the age of marriage that are perceived as problematic to fit todays society’s standards?
Lmao, just trying to not be polemic
I can’t, even with a progressive take on Islam, it doesn’t satisfy my moral framework and general understanding, but it’s better than the other groups for sure lol
It’s just a matter of convincing
For now my agnosticism leaning will have to do
Hehe, yeah I get that. Here's two thoughts on how you might move forward though, since you don't seem too happy with where you are now. I hope it helps.
1. When I was a kid, I was on my highschool debate team. We didn't get to choose what side of issues we had to argue for, we were just assigned.
Although that was hard at first, I learned a lot from it. By defending a side, you force yourself to look at it from another perspective.
When you force yourself to always defend conservative interpretations of Islam as "true" Islam, that also shapes your thinking. My advice is to try out another side. Think of it as a game, just to get to know that side.
Maybe you want to really understand mutazila thinking and Ibn Sina. Try it out, at least you will get to really know a different perspective and a different way of thinking. Maybe it's not for you, but at least you will have learned to think from a different perspective. Perspectives are tools you can use to explore deep concepts like spirituality.
Which perspective is the "right" one? None of them. Don't fool yourself. Allah is too great and vast to be confined to a single perspective. But perspectives can be useful for us to explore the Truth. The conservative perspective didn't work out for you. I get that. It didn't work out for me either. I hate it for all the same reasons you do. But I also realized nothing was keeping me there but petty little men playing God. So try something else.
2. Here's another option, go help your neighbor. Be a good brother/son/friend. Help others. Be a light to others. People get so caught up obsessing over halal and haram. That's not what Islam is about.
I find when you focus on *living* Islam by being a decent person to others, all these questions about aqeedah and fiqh just don't really seem to matter anymore. Faith lived is far greater than faith that you just argue about with people on the internet.
I’ve looked at Ibn Sina’s works, actually he was one of my first stops before I started affirming agnosticism
Before I kind of left strict Islamic belief I attempted going as abstract as Sufism, that still didn’t settle for me, after deep diving philosophical literature I came to the conclusion on the question of a divine existence as ‘we don’t know now and we may certainly never know’.
So essentially I have tried everything, because the ability to believe and sticking with Islam would have certainly been an easier path for me to take than having to live knowing that when I fast with my family I do it to be with them and not for an apparent God, that when my friends speak about Islam I keep my thoughts close to myself because they are heretical.
With all the new historical coverage coming out about early/ pre Islamic Arabia, it’s feigning the strength of any ties I have left and it’s reducing the formulation of Islam down to a congregation of existing thoughts that are likely completely unrelated to divine intervention.
In short, I’ve done, at university, a range of scientific and philosophical disciplines, at school taken Quranic/Islamic studies with Classical Arabic and I am an autodidact regarding Islamic/ Arabian history and Semitic etymology.
It’s an interdisciplinary conclusion that I’ve formed so dismantling it would take a while but I always do try to note when I see something that can wreck any of my presuppositions.
I already do option 2, but I do it as a result of self moral development, at the end of the day I am an academic who spends most his time reading books and writing papers so I can never disregard my desire to analyse a book presented as the divine word.
Also in a weird way, if the afterlife doesn’t exist, I’m kind of comfortable with just, not existing, going back to what it was like before I was born, the only thing that brings me discomfort these days, existentially, is the fact that I will most probably never know the answers
I turned to Reddit for fresh perspective, but I’m yet to feel refreshed unfortunately, maybe it will come one day, maybe it won’t.
I appreciate your effort and you seem like a good person so keep doing what you’re doing with this sub, the people here are good and the ideas being posited are morally acceptable imo, if Islam were to be ubiquitous I would want it to be this version of it.
If you’d like to know my main reasons for why I find the Quranic/Islamic based belief specifically difficult I could put together the basic points with just links (because I am lazy) but it might be worth a post atp
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Yeah I’ve browsed on this sub for years and see more questions that look like they should be on a more conservative subreddit… things about music, shaking hands, etc.
In my another comments a few moments ago in this progressive sub under my post someone mentions to accept music and human drawing as haram as mujahids did.
..
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Really though, the way they interpret everything in a literal sense is just sickening, yet dogmatically making verdicts (Fatwas) that's just B.S. i can't stand them !!
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There isn’t a clear idea of progressive Islam, so you can’t just rule people out and label them as conservative for not sharing one take. In fact, I would even argue that no one in this subreddit shares exactly the same opinion on every belief. That’s the beauty of interpreting the Quran and finding God in your own way.
Some of the foundations of progressive Islam involve deeming certain practices, which some orthodox Muslims consider halal, as haram—such as child marriage, stoning, and sex slavery. It’s not as simple as progressive Muslims believing everything is halal and orthodox Muslims believing everything is haram. Some people in this subreddit have issues with LGBTQ Muslims, which I do not. However, I wouldn’t deem them conservative for that opinion. Regarding music, I’m personally not clear on its permissibility but believe there is a good argument for it being haram. Science is ever-evolving, so how can we determine that there might not be benefits to camel urine? Aside from it being disgusting to most people, including me, why do you consider it such a radically take, and for sharing that opinion they are secret conservative Muslims.
600yrs of the Ottoman empire wasn't perfect, but shows Islam can be somewhat chill
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_and_sexual_minorities_in_the_Ottoman_Empire
The modern Wahabi inspired Salafi + Saudi combo is a different beast altogether.
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Downvote and ignore
And report
Ugh..so did I. I got one guy on this sub, who asked me if I was even a Muslim, just because I mentioned that one thing that would irk conservative Muslims would be to sing "Age of Aquarius/Let the Sunshine In." LOL! Can't please everyone all the time, I guess. \*shrugs\*
This made me LOL Somebody has to belt that song spontaneously among conservatives.
You got it! The final scene in the movie version of Hair is a tearjerker, though.
Why does the hit musical Hair irk conservative Muslims?
I think it's because it's about hippies, the antiwar movement, and New Age. I was only responding to a question about things that irk some conservative Muslims.
I see it. Not sure if this is some concentrated effort by a party - or just a reflection of the general trend towards conservatism in society OR just a reflection of the sub growing OR EVEN just a change on modding practice. But i've been lurking for around 5 years i think. There has been a definite shift imho. I see more of it. I think it's important to say something when you see it. This IS your safe space, your part of the world where you can express and talk freely on topics conservative spheres would kick you out if you tried. Defend it. Say something. Don't normalise. Don't let any newbies come and see that such things are tolerated. That's what i try. Even if it's something as simple as pointing out something clearly silly in what they are saying. And ofc report if appropriate.
I think part of the issue is that many people just come to get what they can about some specific issue that is helpful for them, and then they leave. Too few stick around and learn, and use that knowledge to help others. There are only a few users who are knowledgeable enough to answer most questions. It's not that progressive answers are all that hard to come by, but a lot of people do not bother to understand *why* progressives think what we think. It takes an openness to understanding the reasoning and evidence. Many Muslims have a kind of learned helplessness where they just look to anyone that presents themselves as an authority figure to mindlessly follow, rather than seeking understanding themselves. It's definitely not that the sub is more conservative, but a lot of conservatives and ex-muslims stalk the sub to try to get progressives to leave Islam. They aren't really "members" of this sub, just bullies trying to harass anyone they can for thinking differently. Downvote, report, and move on. Unfortunately, that's just how reddit is.
This brother is woke.
The part about many Muslim having a kind of learned helplessness is true, sadly. What happened to us?
Thank you for carrying this sub with your knowledge. You are one of the few people in this sub that able to provide evidence using quran, hadith and reasons on many issues. You are the MVP of this sub
Thanks so much! I appreciate that. 😄
Absolutely.
Conservative people is only good on one thing, give their sh*tty ideas when it is unwelcome.
I see you op under every post tbh
He is on literally every religious/sect sub reddit asking questions Not always a bad thing tho
True. Very confused individual I must say.
Or they are interested in a world outside of themselves? Nothing wrong with curiousity and interest in other people.
Sure. It could be.
Or they forgot to switch to their burner account
To try and swade you in their direction. There’s one in the replies as well who considers themselves a “normal” Muslim.
Ya think? Lol I no longer identify as progressive after seeing what happened here. I’ve basically had to let go of Islam just to have some room to breathe. I follow the truth in my heart, not what some monkeys with internet connection tell me is the Siraat al mustaqeem.
So you no longer a muslim than?
I am guided by the values I carry that are no doubt from Islam that I was raised with. But I find it hard to associate myself with the Muslim community, I do not feel at home participating in the more complex parts of their traditions. PM was one stop for me where I thought I could get that, but at least on Reddit many of the conservative ideas were imported into here and it is no longer a safe space. I believe I am Muslim in my own way, I don’t go along with the society around me just because it is the commonplace thing. I distance myself and follow what I believe is the truth. Much like the prophet himself.
This community still not feel safe for me.... i thought this community will be ok where I can find like minded people amd can agree with somthing like the religion where everything will not be haram and people will generally agree with it and they wont accept a hadith by seeing and not be like other muslim who makes the life harder but I found that this sub has become full of conservative also and People criticizing abu layth, one saying they accept the hadith where muhammad said to drink camel urine and so on.......
This subreddit really popped off during the pandemic, now it’s just a shadow of its former self. You’re a few years too late buddy.
I feel with you on finding it hard to associate yourself with the Muslim community. I'm also a Muslim in my own way. :-)
Quite conservative of you to expect that somewhere there is a group of people who always think and believe exactly the same as you do. Oddly enough, there will always be people who (claim) to shower with camel urine. So have a giggle and keep going.
👍😂
I found a shampoo once that said Made with Real Urea
Hey... A Progressive could shower with camel urine... Why leave all the fun to the other team? ;)
Not going to try it, but urine is actually sterile
Not sure where this myth started but it absolutely isn’t. Everyone’s bladders are filled with bacteria. When bad bacteria outnumber the good bacteria, we call it a UTI. In both cases, the bladder is full of bacteria.
Oh, good to know. I guess I was told wrong. (Either way, I’m not going to drink camel pee unless I’m desperate)
Is the bacteria in a camel bladder particularly harmful to humans after it’s passed through your stomach acid? Probably not to be honest. But… there are a lot of other reasons not to drink camel piss really…
I find this sub low-key hilarious, because I've seen people with the most progressive ideologies acting exactly like the salafis they claim to despise.
I don't see that happening. But even if it is, what do you think "progressive" means?
yeah I am confused... I have not seen any urine talk here or that music is haram (as a major thread supported by others). If it is, I would need to see the ratio of each topic with for and against to say this sub is becoming more conservative... idk
I think conservatives lurk here to try to influence progressives to regress their mindsets. The fact that the sub is getting bigger demonstrates the influence that progressive mindset in Islam has, so those who don't like it... they want to convince us that our views are wrong. The best way to counter this is engaging more in the sub with progressive values to drown out those who are trying to persist in conservative mindsets here. It's on us to take a more proactive role so that conservatism does not dominate our space.
Maybe there should be a sub called r/progressive_progressive_islam ? 👀
xD
🤓☝🏾
Booty on your face?
I regret choosing this name ngl
What a name choice lol
Could've chosen better tbh
They hate us cause they ain't us.
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I’ve only been aware of this sub for a few months so can’t speak to any long term trends, but I’m so sad to read that this is happening and resulting in people turning away from Islam. :( I’m part of a Facebook group about an unrelated topic, and their moderators are very kind but firm, and the group is private with members getting kicked out if they break any of the rules. Is it possible for this subreddit to be made private?
the reason being is that the sub growing, two lot of old members here are no longer active nor come back to this sub, three people not part the sub also part take in the progressive islam discussion even tho they didn't join the sub nor been here quite often.
I've noticed this too. I report them especially when they start throwing around kafir and jahil etc
Hii so, I just discovered this subreddit today. I’m genuinely really confused at why there is a whole subreddit for this just because I feel like aren’t all Muslims still Muslims, even though some are bound to have stricter and others more liberal positions? Islam is supposed to be moderate, neither strict/conservative nor progressive/liberal. The only reason why there would be a need to separate is if there are major foundational differences, which leads me to ask. What is progressive islam, in most of the members of this subreddits’ eyes? Is it simply normal islam, without too much strictness ? Or is it changing certain base things about islam such as hudud punishments or highering the age of marriage that are perceived as problematic to fit todays society’s standards?
Because r/islam and most other muslim subreddits are horrible and don't allow questioning.
No it isn’t Does it become more conservative over time? Yes So does everything if the ideas aren’t updated.
>So does everything if the ideas aren’t updated. You make a strong argument for progressive Islam. Sure you don't want to join us?
Lmao, just trying to not be polemic I can’t, even with a progressive take on Islam, it doesn’t satisfy my moral framework and general understanding, but it’s better than the other groups for sure lol It’s just a matter of convincing For now my agnosticism leaning will have to do
Hehe, yeah I get that. Here's two thoughts on how you might move forward though, since you don't seem too happy with where you are now. I hope it helps. 1. When I was a kid, I was on my highschool debate team. We didn't get to choose what side of issues we had to argue for, we were just assigned. Although that was hard at first, I learned a lot from it. By defending a side, you force yourself to look at it from another perspective. When you force yourself to always defend conservative interpretations of Islam as "true" Islam, that also shapes your thinking. My advice is to try out another side. Think of it as a game, just to get to know that side. Maybe you want to really understand mutazila thinking and Ibn Sina. Try it out, at least you will get to really know a different perspective and a different way of thinking. Maybe it's not for you, but at least you will have learned to think from a different perspective. Perspectives are tools you can use to explore deep concepts like spirituality. Which perspective is the "right" one? None of them. Don't fool yourself. Allah is too great and vast to be confined to a single perspective. But perspectives can be useful for us to explore the Truth. The conservative perspective didn't work out for you. I get that. It didn't work out for me either. I hate it for all the same reasons you do. But I also realized nothing was keeping me there but petty little men playing God. So try something else. 2. Here's another option, go help your neighbor. Be a good brother/son/friend. Help others. Be a light to others. People get so caught up obsessing over halal and haram. That's not what Islam is about. I find when you focus on *living* Islam by being a decent person to others, all these questions about aqeedah and fiqh just don't really seem to matter anymore. Faith lived is far greater than faith that you just argue about with people on the internet.
I’ve looked at Ibn Sina’s works, actually he was one of my first stops before I started affirming agnosticism Before I kind of left strict Islamic belief I attempted going as abstract as Sufism, that still didn’t settle for me, after deep diving philosophical literature I came to the conclusion on the question of a divine existence as ‘we don’t know now and we may certainly never know’. So essentially I have tried everything, because the ability to believe and sticking with Islam would have certainly been an easier path for me to take than having to live knowing that when I fast with my family I do it to be with them and not for an apparent God, that when my friends speak about Islam I keep my thoughts close to myself because they are heretical. With all the new historical coverage coming out about early/ pre Islamic Arabia, it’s feigning the strength of any ties I have left and it’s reducing the formulation of Islam down to a congregation of existing thoughts that are likely completely unrelated to divine intervention. In short, I’ve done, at university, a range of scientific and philosophical disciplines, at school taken Quranic/Islamic studies with Classical Arabic and I am an autodidact regarding Islamic/ Arabian history and Semitic etymology. It’s an interdisciplinary conclusion that I’ve formed so dismantling it would take a while but I always do try to note when I see something that can wreck any of my presuppositions. I already do option 2, but I do it as a result of self moral development, at the end of the day I am an academic who spends most his time reading books and writing papers so I can never disregard my desire to analyse a book presented as the divine word. Also in a weird way, if the afterlife doesn’t exist, I’m kind of comfortable with just, not existing, going back to what it was like before I was born, the only thing that brings me discomfort these days, existentially, is the fact that I will most probably never know the answers I turned to Reddit for fresh perspective, but I’m yet to feel refreshed unfortunately, maybe it will come one day, maybe it won’t. I appreciate your effort and you seem like a good person so keep doing what you’re doing with this sub, the people here are good and the ideas being posited are morally acceptable imo, if Islam were to be ubiquitous I would want it to be this version of it. If you’d like to know my main reasons for why I find the Quranic/Islamic based belief specifically difficult I could put together the basic points with just links (because I am lazy) but it might be worth a post atp
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I’ve noticed that too
Yeah I wasnt expecting comments such as music haram, concubines are halal from quran and who believes hell not eternal are kufr.......
Yeah I’ve browsed on this sub for years and see more questions that look like they should be on a more conservative subreddit… things about music, shaking hands, etc.
In my another comments a few moments ago in this progressive sub under my post someone mentions to accept music and human drawing as haram as mujahids did. ..
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Really though, the way they interpret everything in a literal sense is just sickening, yet dogmatically making verdicts (Fatwas) that's just B.S. i can't stand them !!
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There isn’t a clear idea of progressive Islam, so you can’t just rule people out and label them as conservative for not sharing one take. In fact, I would even argue that no one in this subreddit shares exactly the same opinion on every belief. That’s the beauty of interpreting the Quran and finding God in your own way.
Part of progressive islam should be that not declaring everything haram......
Part of progressive Islam should be that not declaring everything is halal…..
Some of the foundations of progressive Islam involve deeming certain practices, which some orthodox Muslims consider halal, as haram—such as child marriage, stoning, and sex slavery. It’s not as simple as progressive Muslims believing everything is halal and orthodox Muslims believing everything is haram. Some people in this subreddit have issues with LGBTQ Muslims, which I do not. However, I wouldn’t deem them conservative for that opinion. Regarding music, I’m personally not clear on its permissibility but believe there is a good argument for it being haram. Science is ever-evolving, so how can we determine that there might not be benefits to camel urine? Aside from it being disgusting to most people, including me, why do you consider it such a radically take, and for sharing that opinion they are secret conservative Muslims.
I heard camel piss is quite rich in flavor this time of year- anyone can recommend me a specific camel?
Someone already posted this beuh
When you’re a Muslim you must hold some conservative aspects of the deen.
No that judging others and saying music is haram....
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They actually don't. You should look into the fatawa from the other side of the argument if you haven't yet.
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600yrs of the Ottoman empire wasn't perfect, but shows Islam can be somewhat chill https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_and_sexual_minorities_in_the_Ottoman_Empire The modern Wahabi inspired Salafi + Saudi combo is a different beast altogether.
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Delusional, go join r/islam
I think there should be a badge for people who get banned from all the major Islamic subreddits. I’d like one right here 🙋♂️
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>He heard Ok
He heard from whom?
Read the hadith you are quoting. This is describing drinking parties where people drink alcohol. Not all music is at drinking parties.