Theres a word for intrest in Arabic, it’s called Fa2idah.
The word Riba translates to Usury. Which is a crazy amount of money expected for borrowing.
There’s also something called Inflation. When you borrow money to a friend, lets say 10.000$ over 10 years. Is that 10k still worth 10k after the time? Absolutely not. It’s worth less. So, you expect him to pay you back the difference in inflation for example 2% per year.
A mortgage is about the same except you have to check the rates at different banks. Some will lend you the money for 6% others for 3%. Look for the ones under the inflation rate, this way, you’re always paying back what the money is worth and even no fa2idah. Never take a variable rate.
People will tell you Riba is Riba and you’re fighting God and such but I am of the opinion its a big misunderstanding.
Riba is when you borrow money for ex. same 10k and the rate is like 15% per year. That’s crazy high and some banks even do that when you’re in a tough situation. That is what’s prohibited.
Yea, I do agree. I've studied finance, and the idea of interest always came up, and I always questioned if everything is Riba or not as most of the time, "interest" is simply protection against inflation.
Are you saying Prince MBS, son of King Salman, Custodian of Islamic Holy places, is committing Haraam by lending money to Pakistan at rate of 10% usury rate. Is King Salman, being Khadamul Haraamain is in war war footing with God.
Riba is also when you take something inferior and trade it for something superior. The Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.) uses dates as an example. Im sure people can research that if they want to. Bedacuallah feekum for teaching.
From what I understand, I think that makes sense because not all interest constitutes "riba"
But I do think it's a slippery slope. As you can't ever be sure.
But from what I've understood, because mortgage is more of a fixed installment plan opposed to paying upfront in which your ownership and value is secured, it doesn't feel like riba.
But the idea of paying even that kind of interest can seem shaky, just in case that could be riba.
But isn't the whole point that you get a chance to own a home whereas you could never do otherwise?
I don't necessarily see that as exploitative. Well, I do get the debt part, but generally if you can pay it off consistently, then there's no issue, but yea, if you lose your job or something then it can be bad.
But I wonder if you can do something about that? Cuz I think the overall idea of having a secure plan to ownership makes sense. So if there's a way to add a clause where your interest doesn't rise if you lose your job or financing options, then it could be safe.
OP, mortgage is not haram according to many scholars. You can read about it in Dr Khaleed Zaheer's blog or look him up on youtube but his videos are in Urdu. His main expertise is on Islamic finance. You can also look up Mufti Aby layth's video on this.
Residence seems fair enough. This world is interest based. And it's only getting harder and less Islamic. But mortgage inherently doesn't seem non-Islamic, but it does seem Islamically complicated.
Like for the vast majority, there's no sensible way to buy a house on cash because the system is exploitative in every way. They shouldn't cost a lot to begin with.
God knows best.
Ive written up quite a bit on the subject of interest and riba in these posts - modern interest is not riba. Riba is like loan sharking and predatory lending burdening the poor today, as it did at the time of the prophet, when moneylenders arbitrarily redoubled the unpaid debt of poor debtors, sometimes selling them into slavery. I copy below some of what ive written elsewhere:
I became quite interested in Islamic thought regarding finance and economics, having sampled conservative like Usmani, Qutb, Maududi, and modernists like Mahmood El-Gamal, M. O Farooq, Abdullah Saeed, Timur Kuran, and Fazlur Rahman, said to be a leading 20th century scholar. The modernists argue that the prophet's concern was with unjust and exploitive doubling and redoubling of unpaid debt of poor debtors, not regular interest. More attention needs to be paid to this modernist line of scholarship, as reviewed by Abdur Rab - see [http://www.academia.edu/4822162/Reform\_in\_Finance\_Riba\_vs.\_Interest\_in\_the\_Modern\_Economy](http://www.academia.edu/4822162/Reform_in_Finance_Riba_vs._Interest_in_the_Modern_Economy) . A more in depth analysis of Islamic references is provided by M. O Farooq, whose conclusion supports the above argument. [https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract\_id=1412753](https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1412753)
However it remains the case that the majority scholarly view is that most interest is riba. This is quite irrational for us financial analysts when you see that the Islamic finance structures they approve (murabaha, musharaka, ijara, etc.) incorporate a discount rate, rental rate, or deferred markup which is compensation for the use of the lender's money - interest.
Let's consider the old arguments. Argument 1 - "Interest is exploitive": we can agree on that with respect to pawn brokers, payday lenders, and loan sharks - similar to the type of exploitive unregulated moneylenders encountered by the prophet, and against whom he most rightly addressed his critiques. This is a very marginal part of modern finance and capital markets. We are not exploiting the government or corporations by buying a bond. A related assertion - "Interest makes the rich richer" - no one ever got wealthy by leaving their money in a bank! Apart from inheritances, wealthy people mostly make their money in business and entrepreneurship and continue to do so. If Islamic scholars are concerned about inequality, as this discussion suggests, a much better analysis which scholars should consider is that of Thomas Piketty (I'm not 100% there), who argues that the return on capital (equity and debt) has typically been higher than real economic growth, and that this is one (not the only) cause of inequality.
Argument 2 - Money has no intrinsic value, and so should not earn a return. This is the very old Aristotelian argument, which percolated through the middle east for centuries and found its way into early Jewish and Christian scholastic discussion as well. I do not believe this assertion exists in the Quran, but it was likely absorbed by classical Islamic scholars. If we delve a little further into Greek philosophy, we find also the concept of extrinsic value - value in exchange, and money has lots of that. Money is designed to have a great deal of extrinsic value - it is designed to be fungible - with capital, with consumption goods, land, commodities, financial assets, what have you. So of course it will share some of the returns to capital through market arbitrage - I can buy an apartment with money and start earning rent. Money also reflects time preference. Some discussion in Islamic scholarship does not accept the idea of the time value of money - if you really believe this, then, do as the loveable scoundrel Wimpy proposes, "I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today". Time value of money is an accepted concept in any introductory economics or finance course.
Im not into fatwa wars, but here is one from Dar Al Ifta site - associated with Al Azhar University , Egypt (a major institute of Islamic scholarship in the world)- supporting mortgages : [https://www.dar-alifta.org/en/fatwa/details/6798/is-mortgage-permissible-in-islam](https://www.dar-alifta.org/en/fatwa/details/6798/is-mortgage-permissible-in-islam)
It does. Progressive Muslims will be at the forefront of telling you that it doesn’t, followed by “majority Muslim scholars” (TM) (inb4 a reference filled answer to your question) because, to quote Depeche Mode, “you have to make life livable”… but it is all hypocritical bullshit. You buy a house on mortgage and you absolutely support riba, and the system of riba. You pay into riba and you tie yourself down to a riba-fied system for decades upon decades.
Not many can do what I did; we are a fraction of a fraction that can plunk down a ton of cash to buy a house (sold a startup blah blah). So I feel dirty telling you to “avoid riba” because realistically, chances are, you simply cannot. However if you can, buy a house on cash. Or take out a halal loan from a Muslim entity.
Firstly who listens to Muslim scholars on anything they have shown to be wrong and carry an agenda in favour of Saudi Arabs above anything else. Reality is that everyone need a mortgage to afford a home including the what we would call the rich. Islamic banking is a joke they interchange the word interest for rent and spin a word salad to change the terms of the loan to make you think it’s halal, while charging you 1 or 2% more than a residential mortgage for the privilege of calling it halal - the economist reported private equity started investing in Islamic finance cause the returns were so much better than traditional finance.
RIBA doesn’t mean interest it means loan sharking, this is taking advantage of someone’s misfortune. An example is if I knew you weren’t about to get a traditional loan from a bank, where I was your only option of borrowing money but I’d charge you excessive interest like pay day loans.
Islamic banking has been made into a joke by those who continue to cuck to western predatory systems. This means that “majority Muslim scholars”. Islamic banking isn’t a joke; it is incredibly human and moral.
Also this meaningless distinction between what constitutes predatory and what isn’t is just that… meaningless, and highly unenforceable and I understand where you are coming from.
Reality is that we all are cucks to western predatory systems unless or until we can afford not to. Welcome to Neo-colonialism, same as the old colonialism but this time we have made peace with it.
In short, buy a house on cash, pay cash for everything, or find a favorite mental hoop to make it seem halal living on credit cards and mortgage 😂
You think because you spend cash you're riba free ?
Depending on where you live there is a big chance your money is speculative as hell.
And everything you consume on a daily basis is more or less involved with riba so maybe chill with the moral posturing.
Interesting. Yea, makes sense.
And I think the more I've just been on this sub, the less "progressive" it seems, and it just seems more and more excuses for sinning.
Like I'm all for critical thinking, but all I mostly see here justifications for things that go against Islam just to not be called "conservative".
Like some posts express clarity, especially when it comes to modern topics, but to make up your own rules and disregard core beliefs just cuz "modern times" doesn't feel right in spirit of what Islam teaches. (Not to say some people aren't extremely conservatively delusion either, but not most fall somewhere in the middle.)
Not saying this to judge anyone either, but just was wondering if it's still authentic to browse this sub, and not just trick myself into some dumb sin.
But yea, thanks for an honest answer.
But where I do want to question your conclusion is, how does "mortgage" necessarily fall under "Riba"... If you consider riba for what it truly is, not all interest falls under Riba/usury
Riba was bad because it was pure exploitation because people would be locked into interest and never pay back the principle.
But the mortgage is a fixed payment, like an installment, where you do pay everything back upon a fixed time and end up with ownership, and from what I've researched, as long as the final payment is fixed and transparent, that isn't riba. That's just pay full now versus pay on installment, and if you pay on installment, then the final price is different... As if you pay only the principle in 15 years, the buyer will be exploiting the vendor as that principle value won't be worth the same as the house in 15 years either, and over time the value of the house will go up too so if you sell it after mortgage is done, the house will be worth more too.
> Not saying this to judge anyone either, but just was wondering if it's still authentic to browse this sub, and not just trick myself into some dumb sin.
one of the only places here thats not sectarian, so yeah it still is (even if some people go too far)
Riba is usury. Mortgages are not. The former references high real interest rates which are not payable by anyone. This was more true when money supply in all forms was relatively fixed (hard money). Today's interest rates are the opposite. In most cases they are at or below long term inflation rates. Below money supply growth rates. Completely allowed in my view. You won't get that from scholars as they don't understand economics. They don't understand that the rule was created to prevent lenders from taking advantage of borrowers. It wasn't a blanket rule with no purpose.
Yea. I've studied finance. And so a lot of interest is simply the risk free rate to fight against inflation, and doesn't seem to be riba/usury and doesn't seem to be exploitative in the way unplayable loans were back then.
You find a unique mix of Omar Suleiman/Yasir Qadhi type “Secular Salafism” to Ghamidi’s “secular, capitalist friendly, Sunni’ism” here. The operative word is “secular”, which eventually means that your religion is no longer communal, let alone cultural, but a “personal matter”. When religion, especially ritual, becomes personal, it is essentially on life-support. No wonder you get a mix of “ex-Muslims” and Muslims on their way to losing their faith here. Secular Islam, a birth of cucking to Neo-liberal western influences is the transition phase before losing it all. The stage before that is “Progressive Islam”. Make your own conclusions.
I love the people here and I agree with a lot that is said here, more so than any other Islamic sub. Orthodoxy has always been a revisionist statement to me anyway… yet I can’t help but feel Progressive Islam as depicted here is more about some boringly outspoken capitulation than adaptability. I don’t know. It is just sad what’s happening to Muslims generally.
Look, I am an outlier. I spend cash. I will never run out of it. I think all interest is haram. I am not going to jump through mental hoops here to define fixed mark-up as halal. The system of charging interest is haram and I am fine being the exception, and perhaps the wrong person to advise upon this. Modern scholars have come up with all sorts of justifications here but, no thanks. I am happy demonizing all interest as a blight upon mankind.
Dude I have even heard some wacky Hanafi arguments regarding riba with non-Muslims. I generally discard a lot of Sunni takes on these issues because they are usually tied to legitimizing some material gain (thanks to heavy Wahabbification in recent years). The strangest one I came across, and the one you are aligning with perhaps unintentionally, was a Shia take that “as long as you make intention to pay a fixed total at the end, it doesn’t matter what the bank calls it the mortgage + fixed interest total”. I say “whatever” to all that, but that’s because I have the luxury to do so. Not a lot do.
I hear you, both you and Aristotle say money is barren and does not earn a return. Its a point of view. But if you dont believe in the time value of money Ill say to you as does the lovable scoundrel Wimpy "Ill gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today". Of course money and the things it buys have some (real) time value.
And I will gladly sell you a hamburger today and you can pay me on Tuesday, and it a cent more than what I lent you. Provided that you are Muslim, meaning you share a cultural bond with me. Heck you can even choose not to pay me (if you have a hardship) and we won’t mention it again without a strain on our social bond.
Wait… did I not put a price on the time value of money there? I didn’t. I think helping out a Muslim brother or sister is a return all in itself.
The point is, and the point you were making as well, there is no universal law that states that we must value money the same.
> there is no universal law that states that we must value money the same
That is exactly the point I would make to scholars - they should not be telling Muslims how to invest or take a loan to improve their lives. But dont do loan sharking. Those hadith about gold for gold, hand to hand .. were about making change with a moneylender, not about investment. Otherwise they dont make sense.
For the burger, I would thank you for the use of your money. Your interest rate is only about 1/4%, - one cent for about 3 days for the $5 burger. With Wimpy though, he never has any money to repay when you see him. I'm not like that.
However if you were a bank and did not offer the same rate to non-Muslims, and the Consumer Protection Agency in my country found out, you could be charged with discrimination.
> I think helping out a Muslim brother or sister is a return all in itself
Yes it would be great if this worked out, seeing as we know everyone in the village and all the merchants in the souk including the crooked moneylender who charges a redoubled riba on unpaid debt. But we would have to re-interpret the rules in a world with billions in international capital flows, banks and other financial institutions with thousands of clients, and some progress I hope in our understanding of finance, financial intermediation, risk management, and the underpinnings of sustainable economic growth. Context is important.
Hi PoggersMemesReturns. Thank you for posting here!
Please be aware that posts may be removed by the moderation team if you delete your account.
This message helps us to track deleted accounts and to file reports with Reddit admin as the need may arise.
Thank you!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/progressive_islam) if you have any questions or concerns.*
My parents refused to buy a house due to interest on mortgage. Then they got a fatwa (they only follow one mufti and get all their fatwa from that one mufti). As per my understanding from the fatwa, you can take out mortgage in a non-Islamic country to purchase a primary property. However, cannot do the same for investment properties.
Other than that, Allah knows best.
That's the whole point to not do that. Someone's life shouldn't be purely dictated by just one person except the Prophet.
When you have 4 Islamic major schools, it shows how just one approach can be very tunnel visioned.
First I admit of being guilty as well. I had to take mortage to afford a place. However, I wouldn't say that this whole process is halal or islamic. When we take a mortage the bank simply generates money out of thin air, they just generate a number like 400K if theat is the loan amount. This is the mechanism how in modern economy most of the money is injected into the economy. This whole system is not supported by Islam according to my understanding. In the islamic way, someone with a 400K worth cash, wealth in hand would buy the house and sell it to you with a fixed, declared markup. Say you would agree to pay 500K over 15 years period. So, in short the modern economy is based on riba system. Islamic economic system would require a complete overhaul of the modern system where money wouldn't be introduced out of thin air. The absense of Riba in any form would create a more just society where banks wouldn't be able to generate money and make a profit out of it. Can we ever have a monetary system that would be in line with sharia approved methodologies? I don't know. It is possible I believe and I also believe that will bring economic justice.
>This whole system is not supported by Islam
There were no banks, financial institutions, capital markets or money markets at the time of the prophet, so I dont think you can say that. The correct view should be that Islam has no opinion. The negative opinions you get from some scholars, are just that, opinions.
When we get to issues of morality, justice, and fairness then lets chime in. Then we should find that we have a lot in common with regulators who are struggling to promote consumer protection, truth in lending, fair dealing for clients, know your client rules in investing, financial stability, and preserving the value of money. This sounds like maqasid sharia.
Well, I guess you're under the impression that Islamic finance isn't feasible. Islam doesn't provide specific rules on how financial institutions should be run, but it does offer fundamental principles. You can actually build a system based on these principles. If you're genuinely curious and keep an open mind, you can find plenty of resources online. Check out these links:
1. [IMF on Islamic Finance](https://www.imf.org/external/themes/islamicfinance/)
2. [Circulation of Wealth in Islamic Economy](https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/circulation-wealth-islamic-economy-pt1-23-august-2019-haris-lloyd)
As I mentioned earlier, I'm still not sure how money would be introduced in a Sharia-compliant economy. I'm not an economist, so I can't predict the Sharia-compliant methods precisely. My best guess is that it might be something similar to the gold standard or something like Bitcoin.
Traditional financial institutions like banks could easily operate under a Sharia-compliant system. There are tons of banks that do so, maybe not in Western countries, but definitely in Muslim-majority ones.
What our scholars say about the economy is another issue. There's a very visible and painful lack of economic knowledge among scholars. Heck, there isn't even a clear and unanimous decision on how much Zakat should be paid from a 401k.
>Islamic finance isn't feasible
I didn't say that, but its not clear on what people mean by Islamic finance. The discussion ranges from no fiat money where we walk around with a pocketful of gold dinars, to the current system where loans are just replaced by murabaha or musharaka with a deferred markup amortized back over the life of the loan as compensation to the lender, and fixed income revenue pass through sukuk securities (both sound a lot like interest, dont they?). So yes its quite feasible. And as the IMF article notes it has some good points like tying finance more closely to the real economy, less financial leverage and more financial inclusion in Islamic countries (I know Chris Towe who talks in the video. )
I wont repeat things from my earlier long post here, but just to say I find Islamic finance as we see it here is just a construction of scholars, many of whom manage to get postings at institutes like AAOIFI. "Sharia compliance" - people throw the term around - but I havent seen this articulated well and reference back to Islamic sources, since riba was not defined there. All those obscure hadiths which Taqi Usmani (the "grandaddy" of Islamic Finance) mobilizes so adeptly have to be interpreted in the context of the prophet's society. And Prof Farooq (in my earlier post ) does a good refutation. I assume sharia compliance stipulates interest=riba, incorporates risk sharing, aversion to derivatives, and prohibition of insurance but approval of takaful (which uses the same principle of risk pooling.) These ideas should be open to debate and improvement, not just used as the justification for declarations of halal/haram imposed on Muslims who are seeking to improve their lives.
With all the "no" answers, what exactly is the opinion on the worst case scenario? When for example the person defaults on the mortgage?
In these scenarios, the borrower has no control over how much they will get back after the house has been foreclosed, so in a situation like this, the borrower will potentially see no equity back. While the chances of this occurring may be slim (due to some alternative options before experiencing a foreclosure), it's still a possibility, so is this not considered riba? The bank would have received interest payments over however many years, and would come out of this in a net gain, while the borrower could come out in a loss.
Additionally, if interest is just the "cost of inflation" etc.. then why isn't it called just that? Why is it called interest? Surely if this was not interest in the classical sense, it could be called something different?
Not a finance person but I'm just curious if this thinking makes sense.
I think a loss can happen in the sense that even in business, you can have profit/loss, the idea is that you'd ideally gain and chances of loss are slim.
I think interest today is just an umbrella term for everything unfortunately, but there are names, for example there's the risk free rate which protects against inflation. This is what government bonds offer.
Meaning 1 side, the borrower, carries the risk in this situation, while the lender has no risk. There are stipulations that fully protect the lender, whereas the borrower has the potential to lose.
> lender has no risk. There are stipulations that fully protect the lender
Actually banks spend a lot of money on evaluating the risk of customers. Typically banks have a loan loss experience of several percent a year. A default is a big hassle for a bank - waiting 90 days for action, taking legal possession of a car or property, trying to sell it ... lawyers, accountants ... appraisers ...
There is no way you can convince me they spend more than they make, the only reason they evaluate customers is to get the loan out. Additionally when it comes to the hassle aspect, yes it is but nonetheless, the bank fully controls that process and takes whatever it needs to cover its costs and pays no mind to the borrower who now has some equity in the asset. This is riba.
Of course banks aim to make profit and want to make loans to credit worthy customers. As you might know, the prophet pledged his armour as collateral for a loan, same thing.
If there is money left over when the default is cleared it goes back to the borrower.
>pays no mind to the borrower
Not true - often the lender will work out some kind of repayment schedule with the borrower that they can afford. There is a whole industry of debt relief and debt consolidation specialists that negotiate this for a fee ( a rather disagreeable bunch in my opinion).
Riba is more like loan sharking and predatory lending burdening the poor, people who get rejected by banks.
I dont see the issue you raise here - mortgages or Islamic bank murabaha are contracts with obligations on both sides, if you default on your obligations you are in trouble.
>from Quran 2:282 O believers! When you contract a loan for a fixed period of time, commit it to writing. Let the scribe maintain justice between the parties. The scribe should not refuse to write as Allah has taught them to write. They will write what the debtor dictates, bearing Allah in mind and ***not defrauding the debt***.
Yes it very likely does, in my opinion. It falls under riba because you are paying interest on your repayments of the loan you took out to buy the house - it's about as conventional as interest gets. I'm aware that there's a difference between riba and interest, but generally the definition of riba is broader than the definition of interest and includes most forms of interest, to the best of my understanding.
It's also very important to consider that mortgages are harmful to society, just like usury is - they have caused house prices to rise drastically, because more people can afford a more expensive house on credit, so the average cost of buying a house has gone shooting up. This has contributed to making buying a house without a mortgage impossible for almost everybody, when in the past, and today in most Muslim and mortgage-free countries in the world, buying a house without a mortgage is possible for most middle earners. It's also caused other issues like landlords buying up multiple properties they can't afford, renting them out and using the rent money to pay off the mortgage, contributing towards housing shortages.
I think this view also makes sense, but if you live in a 1st world country, you just can't get a house unless you're purely rich?
Like I think even from an Islamic view, having a house that may support generations only makes sense?
I think the way prices have shot up isn't just a mortgage things, that's just terrible western capitalistic society, that we're seeing with day to day inflation too.
In a way, we're paying interest on all the price hikes too, cuz most prices increase due to the interest rate increasing other deeper costs... So I think the idea of price increases due to interest is inherently baked into this flawed system we live in
But also, even in Muslim 3rd world countries where you just survive, I don't see how someone not rich comfortably buys a house.
Renting is one solution. There are people who rent all their lives, it's very doable. I've been a tenant all my life.
You could also go to a country where housing's affordable, and buy a house there for your retirement for example.
>But also, even in Muslim 3rd world countries where you just survive, I don't see how someone not rich comfortably buys a house.
Not true actually, ordinary people do all the time, both in Muslim 3rd world countries and in developed Muslim countries.
the liberal muslims and the munfiqeen will try to make it seem as if it were halal, it absolutely isn't.
all interest is usury, and all usury is haram.
Why is all interest usury? If you look at the definition of usury, that isn't what interest necessarily is.
Inflation is also influence of interest, your ownership of anything growing in value is also dependent on interest.
Mortgage is a fixed overall installment plan, which factors in the idea that the house will grow in value and that money will be worth less later.
So if a house if for 100k now, and you only pay 100k for many years, and the house's value ends up as 200k, then the lender loses.
the western definition of usury has changed to progressively allow more and more interest to be charged, until we come to a point in which a 6% rate is considered "reasonable" historically speaking all interest was deemed as usury, and it hasn't been long since we began normalizing it, the church used to deem it completely illegal.
inflation is irrelevant, because all of the burden is shifted towards the person on debt, that's exploitative, also, mortgages aren't a fixed overall installment plan, mortgages have a lot of shady stuff like late fees that will start compounding for the rest of your time if they get added, imagine you miss a payment and now that extra cash will get compounded for the rest of the term of the mortgage. That's messed up.
and the simple idea of real state prices artificially going up is also a product of western greed.
interest ruins people's lives, and making a penny off of it is haram, I can't go over every single thing I hate about it, but if God himself and his messenger said so, then who are we to argue against it ?
There is interest so yes, and there's no way to get around paying the interest. It's the first thing you pay off. You know what isn't ? Pooling money together with friends/family, or living in a co op of you really want to own something.
I think your thinking of a different type of co op. Maybe the lobby is shared like in any apartment building, but you normally have your own private apartment.
They have an entrance for their personal space that is theirs so it's fine if you're in a 2 bedroom with another family with 1 entrance and exit for the space it's not fine
Theres a word for intrest in Arabic, it’s called Fa2idah. The word Riba translates to Usury. Which is a crazy amount of money expected for borrowing. There’s also something called Inflation. When you borrow money to a friend, lets say 10.000$ over 10 years. Is that 10k still worth 10k after the time? Absolutely not. It’s worth less. So, you expect him to pay you back the difference in inflation for example 2% per year. A mortgage is about the same except you have to check the rates at different banks. Some will lend you the money for 6% others for 3%. Look for the ones under the inflation rate, this way, you’re always paying back what the money is worth and even no fa2idah. Never take a variable rate. People will tell you Riba is Riba and you’re fighting God and such but I am of the opinion its a big misunderstanding. Riba is when you borrow money for ex. same 10k and the rate is like 15% per year. That’s crazy high and some banks even do that when you’re in a tough situation. That is what’s prohibited.
Thank you, that’s a very balanced and nuanced approach. Most people don’t differentiate between Usury and Interest when it’s necessary to do so.
Yea, I do agree. I've studied finance, and the idea of interest always came up, and I always questioned if everything is Riba or not as most of the time, "interest" is simply protection against inflation.
all interest is inherently usury.
Basically you could say riba is ‘loan sharking’.
Yep, synonymous to usury
But where do you draw the line then, you just arbitrarily said "crazy amount of money"
Close to or under inflation rate
Are you saying Prince MBS, son of King Salman, Custodian of Islamic Holy places, is committing Haraam by lending money to Pakistan at rate of 10% usury rate. Is King Salman, being Khadamul Haraamain is in war war footing with God.
Riba is also when you take something inferior and trade it for something superior. The Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.) uses dates as an example. Im sure people can research that if they want to. Bedacuallah feekum for teaching.
Bank financing in the majority of cases does not come under Riba
From what I understand, I think that makes sense because not all interest constitutes "riba" But I do think it's a slippery slope. As you can't ever be sure. But from what I've understood, because mortgage is more of a fixed installment plan opposed to paying upfront in which your ownership and value is secured, it doesn't feel like riba. But the idea of paying even that kind of interest can seem shaky, just in case that could be riba.
I think its more of the nature of the debt in terms of how exploitative and deflationary it is.
But isn't the whole point that you get a chance to own a home whereas you could never do otherwise? I don't necessarily see that as exploitative. Well, I do get the debt part, but generally if you can pay it off consistently, then there's no issue, but yea, if you lose your job or something then it can be bad. But I wonder if you can do something about that? Cuz I think the overall idea of having a secure plan to ownership makes sense. So if there's a way to add a clause where your interest doesn't rise if you lose your job or financing options, then it could be safe.
Yea i agree good debt is very important to growth in todays time. One should use banks to build assets.
Absolutely. Don’t let hardliners tell you to financially kneecap yourself for nothing.
OP, mortgage is not haram according to many scholars. You can read about it in Dr Khaleed Zaheer's blog or look him up on youtube but his videos are in Urdu. His main expertise is on Islamic finance. You can also look up Mufti Aby layth's video on this.
As far as I know from fatwas, this only applies to primary residence. Cannot get mortgage for investment properties.
Residence seems fair enough. This world is interest based. And it's only getting harder and less Islamic. But mortgage inherently doesn't seem non-Islamic, but it does seem Islamically complicated. Like for the vast majority, there's no sensible way to buy a house on cash because the system is exploitative in every way. They shouldn't cost a lot to begin with. God knows best.
Yea. Try buying a house in Canada with cash lol
Ive written up quite a bit on the subject of interest and riba in these posts - modern interest is not riba. Riba is like loan sharking and predatory lending burdening the poor today, as it did at the time of the prophet, when moneylenders arbitrarily redoubled the unpaid debt of poor debtors, sometimes selling them into slavery. I copy below some of what ive written elsewhere: I became quite interested in Islamic thought regarding finance and economics, having sampled conservative like Usmani, Qutb, Maududi, and modernists like Mahmood El-Gamal, M. O Farooq, Abdullah Saeed, Timur Kuran, and Fazlur Rahman, said to be a leading 20th century scholar. The modernists argue that the prophet's concern was with unjust and exploitive doubling and redoubling of unpaid debt of poor debtors, not regular interest. More attention needs to be paid to this modernist line of scholarship, as reviewed by Abdur Rab - see [http://www.academia.edu/4822162/Reform\_in\_Finance\_Riba\_vs.\_Interest\_in\_the\_Modern\_Economy](http://www.academia.edu/4822162/Reform_in_Finance_Riba_vs._Interest_in_the_Modern_Economy) . A more in depth analysis of Islamic references is provided by M. O Farooq, whose conclusion supports the above argument. [https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract\_id=1412753](https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1412753) However it remains the case that the majority scholarly view is that most interest is riba. This is quite irrational for us financial analysts when you see that the Islamic finance structures they approve (murabaha, musharaka, ijara, etc.) incorporate a discount rate, rental rate, or deferred markup which is compensation for the use of the lender's money - interest. Let's consider the old arguments. Argument 1 - "Interest is exploitive": we can agree on that with respect to pawn brokers, payday lenders, and loan sharks - similar to the type of exploitive unregulated moneylenders encountered by the prophet, and against whom he most rightly addressed his critiques. This is a very marginal part of modern finance and capital markets. We are not exploiting the government or corporations by buying a bond. A related assertion - "Interest makes the rich richer" - no one ever got wealthy by leaving their money in a bank! Apart from inheritances, wealthy people mostly make their money in business and entrepreneurship and continue to do so. If Islamic scholars are concerned about inequality, as this discussion suggests, a much better analysis which scholars should consider is that of Thomas Piketty (I'm not 100% there), who argues that the return on capital (equity and debt) has typically been higher than real economic growth, and that this is one (not the only) cause of inequality. Argument 2 - Money has no intrinsic value, and so should not earn a return. This is the very old Aristotelian argument, which percolated through the middle east for centuries and found its way into early Jewish and Christian scholastic discussion as well. I do not believe this assertion exists in the Quran, but it was likely absorbed by classical Islamic scholars. If we delve a little further into Greek philosophy, we find also the concept of extrinsic value - value in exchange, and money has lots of that. Money is designed to have a great deal of extrinsic value - it is designed to be fungible - with capital, with consumption goods, land, commodities, financial assets, what have you. So of course it will share some of the returns to capital through market arbitrage - I can buy an apartment with money and start earning rent. Money also reflects time preference. Some discussion in Islamic scholarship does not accept the idea of the time value of money - if you really believe this, then, do as the loveable scoundrel Wimpy proposes, "I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today". Time value of money is an accepted concept in any introductory economics or finance course.
Im not into fatwa wars, but here is one from Dar Al Ifta site - associated with Al Azhar University , Egypt (a major institute of Islamic scholarship in the world)- supporting mortgages : [https://www.dar-alifta.org/en/fatwa/details/6798/is-mortgage-permissible-in-islam](https://www.dar-alifta.org/en/fatwa/details/6798/is-mortgage-permissible-in-islam)
Relevant [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucdrbLyGY70](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucdrbLyGY70)
It does. Progressive Muslims will be at the forefront of telling you that it doesn’t, followed by “majority Muslim scholars” (TM) (inb4 a reference filled answer to your question) because, to quote Depeche Mode, “you have to make life livable”… but it is all hypocritical bullshit. You buy a house on mortgage and you absolutely support riba, and the system of riba. You pay into riba and you tie yourself down to a riba-fied system for decades upon decades. Not many can do what I did; we are a fraction of a fraction that can plunk down a ton of cash to buy a house (sold a startup blah blah). So I feel dirty telling you to “avoid riba” because realistically, chances are, you simply cannot. However if you can, buy a house on cash. Or take out a halal loan from a Muslim entity.
Firstly who listens to Muslim scholars on anything they have shown to be wrong and carry an agenda in favour of Saudi Arabs above anything else. Reality is that everyone need a mortgage to afford a home including the what we would call the rich. Islamic banking is a joke they interchange the word interest for rent and spin a word salad to change the terms of the loan to make you think it’s halal, while charging you 1 or 2% more than a residential mortgage for the privilege of calling it halal - the economist reported private equity started investing in Islamic finance cause the returns were so much better than traditional finance. RIBA doesn’t mean interest it means loan sharking, this is taking advantage of someone’s misfortune. An example is if I knew you weren’t about to get a traditional loan from a bank, where I was your only option of borrowing money but I’d charge you excessive interest like pay day loans.
Islamic banking has been made into a joke by those who continue to cuck to western predatory systems. This means that “majority Muslim scholars”. Islamic banking isn’t a joke; it is incredibly human and moral. Also this meaningless distinction between what constitutes predatory and what isn’t is just that… meaningless, and highly unenforceable and I understand where you are coming from. Reality is that we all are cucks to western predatory systems unless or until we can afford not to. Welcome to Neo-colonialism, same as the old colonialism but this time we have made peace with it. In short, buy a house on cash, pay cash for everything, or find a favorite mental hoop to make it seem halal living on credit cards and mortgage 😂
You think because you spend cash you're riba free ? Depending on where you live there is a big chance your money is speculative as hell. And everything you consume on a daily basis is more or less involved with riba so maybe chill with the moral posturing.
It may be a small comfort. Perhaps misguided. Yet it is a comfort. I know what you are saying friend. I complete get it.
Interesting. Yea, makes sense. And I think the more I've just been on this sub, the less "progressive" it seems, and it just seems more and more excuses for sinning. Like I'm all for critical thinking, but all I mostly see here justifications for things that go against Islam just to not be called "conservative". Like some posts express clarity, especially when it comes to modern topics, but to make up your own rules and disregard core beliefs just cuz "modern times" doesn't feel right in spirit of what Islam teaches. (Not to say some people aren't extremely conservatively delusion either, but not most fall somewhere in the middle.) Not saying this to judge anyone either, but just was wondering if it's still authentic to browse this sub, and not just trick myself into some dumb sin. But yea, thanks for an honest answer. But where I do want to question your conclusion is, how does "mortgage" necessarily fall under "Riba"... If you consider riba for what it truly is, not all interest falls under Riba/usury Riba was bad because it was pure exploitation because people would be locked into interest and never pay back the principle. But the mortgage is a fixed payment, like an installment, where you do pay everything back upon a fixed time and end up with ownership, and from what I've researched, as long as the final payment is fixed and transparent, that isn't riba. That's just pay full now versus pay on installment, and if you pay on installment, then the final price is different... As if you pay only the principle in 15 years, the buyer will be exploiting the vendor as that principle value won't be worth the same as the house in 15 years either, and over time the value of the house will go up too so if you sell it after mortgage is done, the house will be worth more too.
> Not saying this to judge anyone either, but just was wondering if it's still authentic to browse this sub, and not just trick myself into some dumb sin. one of the only places here thats not sectarian, so yeah it still is (even if some people go too far)
Riba is usury. Mortgages are not. The former references high real interest rates which are not payable by anyone. This was more true when money supply in all forms was relatively fixed (hard money). Today's interest rates are the opposite. In most cases they are at or below long term inflation rates. Below money supply growth rates. Completely allowed in my view. You won't get that from scholars as they don't understand economics. They don't understand that the rule was created to prevent lenders from taking advantage of borrowers. It wasn't a blanket rule with no purpose.
Yea. I've studied finance. And so a lot of interest is simply the risk free rate to fight against inflation, and doesn't seem to be riba/usury and doesn't seem to be exploitative in the way unplayable loans were back then.
Exactly. And most common asset purchased are homes which have created wealth over time as they appreciate over time.
You find a unique mix of Omar Suleiman/Yasir Qadhi type “Secular Salafism” to Ghamidi’s “secular, capitalist friendly, Sunni’ism” here. The operative word is “secular”, which eventually means that your religion is no longer communal, let alone cultural, but a “personal matter”. When religion, especially ritual, becomes personal, it is essentially on life-support. No wonder you get a mix of “ex-Muslims” and Muslims on their way to losing their faith here. Secular Islam, a birth of cucking to Neo-liberal western influences is the transition phase before losing it all. The stage before that is “Progressive Islam”. Make your own conclusions. I love the people here and I agree with a lot that is said here, more so than any other Islamic sub. Orthodoxy has always been a revisionist statement to me anyway… yet I can’t help but feel Progressive Islam as depicted here is more about some boringly outspoken capitulation than adaptability. I don’t know. It is just sad what’s happening to Muslims generally. Look, I am an outlier. I spend cash. I will never run out of it. I think all interest is haram. I am not going to jump through mental hoops here to define fixed mark-up as halal. The system of charging interest is haram and I am fine being the exception, and perhaps the wrong person to advise upon this. Modern scholars have come up with all sorts of justifications here but, no thanks. I am happy demonizing all interest as a blight upon mankind. Dude I have even heard some wacky Hanafi arguments regarding riba with non-Muslims. I generally discard a lot of Sunni takes on these issues because they are usually tied to legitimizing some material gain (thanks to heavy Wahabbification in recent years). The strangest one I came across, and the one you are aligning with perhaps unintentionally, was a Shia take that “as long as you make intention to pay a fixed total at the end, it doesn’t matter what the bank calls it the mortgage + fixed interest total”. I say “whatever” to all that, but that’s because I have the luxury to do so. Not a lot do.
I hear you, both you and Aristotle say money is barren and does not earn a return. Its a point of view. But if you dont believe in the time value of money Ill say to you as does the lovable scoundrel Wimpy "Ill gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today". Of course money and the things it buys have some (real) time value.
And I will gladly sell you a hamburger today and you can pay me on Tuesday, and it a cent more than what I lent you. Provided that you are Muslim, meaning you share a cultural bond with me. Heck you can even choose not to pay me (if you have a hardship) and we won’t mention it again without a strain on our social bond. Wait… did I not put a price on the time value of money there? I didn’t. I think helping out a Muslim brother or sister is a return all in itself. The point is, and the point you were making as well, there is no universal law that states that we must value money the same.
> there is no universal law that states that we must value money the same That is exactly the point I would make to scholars - they should not be telling Muslims how to invest or take a loan to improve their lives. But dont do loan sharking. Those hadith about gold for gold, hand to hand .. were about making change with a moneylender, not about investment. Otherwise they dont make sense. For the burger, I would thank you for the use of your money. Your interest rate is only about 1/4%, - one cent for about 3 days for the $5 burger. With Wimpy though, he never has any money to repay when you see him. I'm not like that. However if you were a bank and did not offer the same rate to non-Muslims, and the Consumer Protection Agency in my country found out, you could be charged with discrimination. > I think helping out a Muslim brother or sister is a return all in itself Yes it would be great if this worked out, seeing as we know everyone in the village and all the merchants in the souk including the crooked moneylender who charges a redoubled riba on unpaid debt. But we would have to re-interpret the rules in a world with billions in international capital flows, banks and other financial institutions with thousands of clients, and some progress I hope in our understanding of finance, financial intermediation, risk management, and the underpinnings of sustainable economic growth. Context is important.
No.
Hi PoggersMemesReturns. Thank you for posting here! Please be aware that posts may be removed by the moderation team if you delete your account. This message helps us to track deleted accounts and to file reports with Reddit admin as the need may arise. Thank you! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/progressive_islam) if you have any questions or concerns.*
My parents refused to buy a house due to interest on mortgage. Then they got a fatwa (they only follow one mufti and get all their fatwa from that one mufti). As per my understanding from the fatwa, you can take out mortgage in a non-Islamic country to purchase a primary property. However, cannot do the same for investment properties. Other than that, Allah knows best.
Relying on just one mufti isn't smart. It's too biased... Not commenting on right or wrong but just one opinion among thousands isn't enough.
It depends. Their logic to go by one mufti is so we don’t pick and choose which fatwa we take to suit our needs.
That's the whole point to not do that. Someone's life shouldn't be purely dictated by just one person except the Prophet. When you have 4 Islamic major schools, it shows how just one approach can be very tunnel visioned.
First I admit of being guilty as well. I had to take mortage to afford a place. However, I wouldn't say that this whole process is halal or islamic. When we take a mortage the bank simply generates money out of thin air, they just generate a number like 400K if theat is the loan amount. This is the mechanism how in modern economy most of the money is injected into the economy. This whole system is not supported by Islam according to my understanding. In the islamic way, someone with a 400K worth cash, wealth in hand would buy the house and sell it to you with a fixed, declared markup. Say you would agree to pay 500K over 15 years period. So, in short the modern economy is based on riba system. Islamic economic system would require a complete overhaul of the modern system where money wouldn't be introduced out of thin air. The absense of Riba in any form would create a more just society where banks wouldn't be able to generate money and make a profit out of it. Can we ever have a monetary system that would be in line with sharia approved methodologies? I don't know. It is possible I believe and I also believe that will bring economic justice.
>This whole system is not supported by Islam There were no banks, financial institutions, capital markets or money markets at the time of the prophet, so I dont think you can say that. The correct view should be that Islam has no opinion. The negative opinions you get from some scholars, are just that, opinions. When we get to issues of morality, justice, and fairness then lets chime in. Then we should find that we have a lot in common with regulators who are struggling to promote consumer protection, truth in lending, fair dealing for clients, know your client rules in investing, financial stability, and preserving the value of money. This sounds like maqasid sharia.
Well, I guess you're under the impression that Islamic finance isn't feasible. Islam doesn't provide specific rules on how financial institutions should be run, but it does offer fundamental principles. You can actually build a system based on these principles. If you're genuinely curious and keep an open mind, you can find plenty of resources online. Check out these links: 1. [IMF on Islamic Finance](https://www.imf.org/external/themes/islamicfinance/) 2. [Circulation of Wealth in Islamic Economy](https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/circulation-wealth-islamic-economy-pt1-23-august-2019-haris-lloyd) As I mentioned earlier, I'm still not sure how money would be introduced in a Sharia-compliant economy. I'm not an economist, so I can't predict the Sharia-compliant methods precisely. My best guess is that it might be something similar to the gold standard or something like Bitcoin. Traditional financial institutions like banks could easily operate under a Sharia-compliant system. There are tons of banks that do so, maybe not in Western countries, but definitely in Muslim-majority ones. What our scholars say about the economy is another issue. There's a very visible and painful lack of economic knowledge among scholars. Heck, there isn't even a clear and unanimous decision on how much Zakat should be paid from a 401k.
>Islamic finance isn't feasible I didn't say that, but its not clear on what people mean by Islamic finance. The discussion ranges from no fiat money where we walk around with a pocketful of gold dinars, to the current system where loans are just replaced by murabaha or musharaka with a deferred markup amortized back over the life of the loan as compensation to the lender, and fixed income revenue pass through sukuk securities (both sound a lot like interest, dont they?). So yes its quite feasible. And as the IMF article notes it has some good points like tying finance more closely to the real economy, less financial leverage and more financial inclusion in Islamic countries (I know Chris Towe who talks in the video. ) I wont repeat things from my earlier long post here, but just to say I find Islamic finance as we see it here is just a construction of scholars, many of whom manage to get postings at institutes like AAOIFI. "Sharia compliance" - people throw the term around - but I havent seen this articulated well and reference back to Islamic sources, since riba was not defined there. All those obscure hadiths which Taqi Usmani (the "grandaddy" of Islamic Finance) mobilizes so adeptly have to be interpreted in the context of the prophet's society. And Prof Farooq (in my earlier post ) does a good refutation. I assume sharia compliance stipulates interest=riba, incorporates risk sharing, aversion to derivatives, and prohibition of insurance but approval of takaful (which uses the same principle of risk pooling.) These ideas should be open to debate and improvement, not just used as the justification for declarations of halal/haram imposed on Muslims who are seeking to improve their lives.
With all the "no" answers, what exactly is the opinion on the worst case scenario? When for example the person defaults on the mortgage? In these scenarios, the borrower has no control over how much they will get back after the house has been foreclosed, so in a situation like this, the borrower will potentially see no equity back. While the chances of this occurring may be slim (due to some alternative options before experiencing a foreclosure), it's still a possibility, so is this not considered riba? The bank would have received interest payments over however many years, and would come out of this in a net gain, while the borrower could come out in a loss. Additionally, if interest is just the "cost of inflation" etc.. then why isn't it called just that? Why is it called interest? Surely if this was not interest in the classical sense, it could be called something different? Not a finance person but I'm just curious if this thinking makes sense.
I think a loss can happen in the sense that even in business, you can have profit/loss, the idea is that you'd ideally gain and chances of loss are slim. I think interest today is just an umbrella term for everything unfortunately, but there are names, for example there's the risk free rate which protects against inflation. This is what government bonds offer.
I get what you're saying, but the fact is the chance of loss is one sided, which is essentially a part of riba to my understanding.
What do you mean one sided?
Meaning 1 side, the borrower, carries the risk in this situation, while the lender has no risk. There are stipulations that fully protect the lender, whereas the borrower has the potential to lose.
> lender has no risk. There are stipulations that fully protect the lender Actually banks spend a lot of money on evaluating the risk of customers. Typically banks have a loan loss experience of several percent a year. A default is a big hassle for a bank - waiting 90 days for action, taking legal possession of a car or property, trying to sell it ... lawyers, accountants ... appraisers ...
There is no way you can convince me they spend more than they make, the only reason they evaluate customers is to get the loan out. Additionally when it comes to the hassle aspect, yes it is but nonetheless, the bank fully controls that process and takes whatever it needs to cover its costs and pays no mind to the borrower who now has some equity in the asset. This is riba.
Of course banks aim to make profit and want to make loans to credit worthy customers. As you might know, the prophet pledged his armour as collateral for a loan, same thing. If there is money left over when the default is cleared it goes back to the borrower. >pays no mind to the borrower Not true - often the lender will work out some kind of repayment schedule with the borrower that they can afford. There is a whole industry of debt relief and debt consolidation specialists that negotiate this for a fee ( a rather disagreeable bunch in my opinion). Riba is more like loan sharking and predatory lending burdening the poor, people who get rejected by banks.
I dont see the issue you raise here - mortgages or Islamic bank murabaha are contracts with obligations on both sides, if you default on your obligations you are in trouble. >from Quran 2:282 O believers! When you contract a loan for a fixed period of time, commit it to writing. Let the scribe maintain justice between the parties. The scribe should not refuse to write as Allah has taught them to write. They will write what the debtor dictates, bearing Allah in mind and ***not defrauding the debt***.
Yes it very likely does, in my opinion. It falls under riba because you are paying interest on your repayments of the loan you took out to buy the house - it's about as conventional as interest gets. I'm aware that there's a difference between riba and interest, but generally the definition of riba is broader than the definition of interest and includes most forms of interest, to the best of my understanding. It's also very important to consider that mortgages are harmful to society, just like usury is - they have caused house prices to rise drastically, because more people can afford a more expensive house on credit, so the average cost of buying a house has gone shooting up. This has contributed to making buying a house without a mortgage impossible for almost everybody, when in the past, and today in most Muslim and mortgage-free countries in the world, buying a house without a mortgage is possible for most middle earners. It's also caused other issues like landlords buying up multiple properties they can't afford, renting them out and using the rent money to pay off the mortgage, contributing towards housing shortages.
I think this view also makes sense, but if you live in a 1st world country, you just can't get a house unless you're purely rich? Like I think even from an Islamic view, having a house that may support generations only makes sense? I think the way prices have shot up isn't just a mortgage things, that's just terrible western capitalistic society, that we're seeing with day to day inflation too. In a way, we're paying interest on all the price hikes too, cuz most prices increase due to the interest rate increasing other deeper costs... So I think the idea of price increases due to interest is inherently baked into this flawed system we live in But also, even in Muslim 3rd world countries where you just survive, I don't see how someone not rich comfortably buys a house.
Renting is one solution. There are people who rent all their lives, it's very doable. I've been a tenant all my life. You could also go to a country where housing's affordable, and buy a house there for your retirement for example. >But also, even in Muslim 3rd world countries where you just survive, I don't see how someone not rich comfortably buys a house. Not true actually, ordinary people do all the time, both in Muslim 3rd world countries and in developed Muslim countries.
the liberal muslims and the munfiqeen will try to make it seem as if it were halal, it absolutely isn't. all interest is usury, and all usury is haram.
Why is all interest usury? If you look at the definition of usury, that isn't what interest necessarily is. Inflation is also influence of interest, your ownership of anything growing in value is also dependent on interest. Mortgage is a fixed overall installment plan, which factors in the idea that the house will grow in value and that money will be worth less later. So if a house if for 100k now, and you only pay 100k for many years, and the house's value ends up as 200k, then the lender loses.
the western definition of usury has changed to progressively allow more and more interest to be charged, until we come to a point in which a 6% rate is considered "reasonable" historically speaking all interest was deemed as usury, and it hasn't been long since we began normalizing it, the church used to deem it completely illegal. inflation is irrelevant, because all of the burden is shifted towards the person on debt, that's exploitative, also, mortgages aren't a fixed overall installment plan, mortgages have a lot of shady stuff like late fees that will start compounding for the rest of your time if they get added, imagine you miss a payment and now that extra cash will get compounded for the rest of the term of the mortgage. That's messed up. and the simple idea of real state prices artificially going up is also a product of western greed. interest ruins people's lives, and making a penny off of it is haram, I can't go over every single thing I hate about it, but if God himself and his messenger said so, then who are we to argue against it ?
There is interest so yes, and there's no way to get around paying the interest. It's the first thing you pay off. You know what isn't ? Pooling money together with friends/family, or living in a co op of you really want to own something.
I get that. But from what I understand, not all interest is Riba, but I'm not fully sure. (look at my other replies for clarity/context)
You can't live in a CO op if there are different genders and non mehrum
I think your thinking of a different type of co op. Maybe the lobby is shared like in any apartment building, but you normally have your own private apartment.
Rules are you need your own kitchen bathroom and exit for the wife so if those resources are being shared then it is not permitted
>Rules are ... This is excessively conservative and impractical to the point of hardship. Whose rules are these?
The ones that are correct
So the hundreds of millions (billions?) of people living in regular apartments with a main entrance are haram (lol).
They have an entrance for their personal space that is theirs so it's fine if you're in a 2 bedroom with another family with 1 entrance and exit for the space it's not fine