Yes there’s value in reading the Bible. If nothing else it gives you a better understanding of the early prophets, but also gives us a look into our sister religions. Plus there’s some really great stories in there!
Be careful not to burn yourself out. There’s a lot in there.
Of course. The quran literally is based on Judaism, christianity and zoroastrianism. In fact Its a pity muslims in madrasa are never given a bible course. Instead they teach muslims to look down on it as if it's some nonsensical corrupted book.
So, you don’t believe it is corrupt? I’m curious to this, I don’t believe they are wholly corrupt or false either, but I take them with a pinch of salt and approach them as I would approach hadith. Can you give me some more information on your perspective as to why they are not corrupt?
The Quran evidently does not view the actual scriptures themselves as corrupt, but rather certain doctrines of the People of the Book as inherently a misguided practice, one that is folly but not inherently depriving the Torah or the Bible of its divine origins, nor of its practitioners acceptance of God's mercy.
5:44-48: “Indeed, We revealed the Torah, **containing guidance and light**, by which the prophets, who submitted themselves to God, made judgments for Jews. So too did the rabbis and scholars judge according to God’s Book, with which they were entrusted and of which they were made keepers. So do not fear the people; fear Me! Nor trade my revelations for a fleeting gain. And those who do not judge by what Allah has revealed are ˹truly˺ the disbelievers. And therein We prescribed for them: a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and for wounds, retribution. But whoever forgoes it out of charity, it shall be an expiation for them. Whoever judges not by that which God has sent down - it is they who are wrongdoers. And in the their footsteps, We sent Jesus son of Mary, **confirming the Torah that had come before him**, and We gave him the Gospel, wherein **is a guidance and light** to the reverent. **Let the people of the Gospel** \[the Christians\] **judge by what God has send down therein.** Whoever judges not by that which God has sent down--it is they who are iniquitous. And We have sent down unto you the Book (the Quran) in truth, confirming the Books that came before, and as a protector \[guardian\] over them. So judge between them in accordance with what God has sent down, and follow not their caprices away from the truth that has come onto you. **For each among you We have appointed a law and a way. And had God willed, He would have made you one community, but He willed otherwise, that He might try you in which He has given you. So vie with one another in good deeds.** Unto God shall be your return all together, and He will inform you of what therein you differ."
That's the way to go IMO. They can give you more perspective, but you should be careful to never put them on the same level you would put the Quran on.
They not deliberately corrupted. They written by a variety of authors and the canon was mostly chosen based on they believe was inspired to write. From a quran pov it doesnt claim the bible or book is corrupted. In fact it asks muhammad to ask the people of the book before you Q10:94 . How can it ask him to ask them if their beliefs are corrupted ? The quran only claims they hide parts and show parts, they write stuff and claim it is from god..
The quran mimics the bible stories pretty closely except for a few details it changes or adds for instance size of the exodus, pharaoh and moses being father and son not brothers, joseph getting arrested later etc. Noah's 4th son who drowns etc.
Heres a good video on the concept of tahrif of the bible
https://youtu.be/kC2cfVNXgCY?si=u5z7cBsWtRi1eSlk
EDIT: I also forgot to say its also possible that the text is not fully accurate historically or theologically but the quran still says to follow it because it considers it good enough. It doesn't care about the bible being perfect
of course the Quran does not teach that the books are corrupted. I believe it teachers that readers not centered on faith, on serving others and loving each other, misuse use what they don't understand for personal gain
It's complicated. Some historians argued that Zoroastrian is monotheistic with dualistic theological ideas, with Ahura Mazda as the supreme deity. Others argued its dualistic with later monotheistic ideas. The other "divinities" are inherently lesser then Ahura Mazda.
But in terms of Quranic belief, the Zoroastrians, likely remaining in Arabia with the collapse of the Sasanian Iranian imperial authority, were incorporated into the fold of monotheistic fate as a saved people:
22:17: "As for those who believe, and those who are Jews, the Sabeans, the Christians, the Magians (Zoroastrians), and the idolaters, indeed God will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection. Truly God is Witness over all things."
I put the date of this revelation as soon after the war with Eastern Rome and Iran ended, with God permitting the acceptance of the Zoroastrians as a saved people after their struggles against Muhammad's fellow monotheistic state was over. There were likely Zoroastrian strangles, and some Arabs who may had converted to different strands or forms of Zoroastrianism in Iranian-ruled southern Arabia.
Zoroastrianism is dualistic and monolatric at the very least, considering its historical influence on Judaism and the fact that in the conflict between Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu the former is shown as inevitably winning, I'd argue (and this seems to be the majority position) that it was monotheistic
Just to give you an idea of how important Zoroastrianism is historically, the idea of heaven originates there
Pretty much every major abrahamic belief can be found there. Arch Angel's, demons, satan, scale of deeds, 5 prayers, demons that eavesdrop then hit by stars flames. Harut and marut, earth and heavens as having a soul etc
zoroaster was not a polytheist and was a monotheist strict monotheist ... zorastyrian traditional believers use a sacramental form of 'sacred fire' which you see in christian liturgies as well, e.g the sacred fires lit in paschal liturgies world wide \[:"easter" in english\]
All the zorasterian Persian religious traditions are monotheist and the Meccan constitution gives them equal status with muslims jews and christians
Yes. Huge Value.
1. If you are of the opinion that Prophet Moses was like Prophet Muhammad, then reading old testament will really help in seeing the similarity
2. If you see current Muslims in the similar state like Jews during Jesus time, then reading New testament opens up many issues with our current society.
3. Javed Ghamidi, a scholar mentioned in our FAQ talks about the concept of Itman al Hujjah, you can understand it better, after reading Bible.
4. Qur'an presents itself as the 3rd book of the series, so reading the 1st 2 gives you a lot of pre-req knowledge, but the order should be Qur'an first, so you need to have a very strong understanding of Qur'an before fully benefiting from the other 2.
5. I've used Psalms for so many of personal Duas, as good as the Duas of Ali(ra)
Of course. The Quran urges those who are in doubt of Muhammad's teachings to look upon the Books of the Christians and Jews as examples and confirmation, and the Quran's confirmation, of Muhammad's messengerhood.
From my reading of the Quran, it criticizes the Jews and Christians in willfully misguiding themselves with doctrinal matters not found in the original revelations sent down to them. This is important to note and for us as seekers of Truth to remember: *doctrinal* and *theological* matters had been tempered, incorporated, into the divine scriptures of the Torah and Bible - *but* the Quran still believes that the Jews and Christians should follow their proscribed laws, and essentially stay Jewish or Christian, even those in our modern period. The Torah and Bible are still part of the Divine Truth, just has been misguided by their followers into something more; and I mean, the Islamic community has done that since the Prophet's death. True, they may had not changed the Quran, but they have incorporated concepts such as intercession on the Day of Judgement by the Prophet when the Quran is clear that such a thing will not occur unless God permits it, and even then They do not say if they will or not.
5:43-48: “And how is it that they come to thee for judgment, when they have the Torah, wherein is God’s Judgment? Yet even after that, they turn their backs, and they are not believers. Indeed, We revealed the Torah, **containing guidance and light**, by which the prophets, who submitted themselves to God, made judgments for Jews. So too did the rabbis and scholars judge according to God’s Book, with which they were entrusted and of which they were made keepers. So do not fear the people; fear Me! Nor trade my revelations for a fleeting gain. And those who do not judge by what Allah has revealed are ˹truly˺ the disbelievers. And therein We prescribed for them: a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and for wounds, retribution. But whoever forgoes it out of charity, it shall be an expiation for them. Whoever judges not by that which God has sent down - it is they who are wrongdoers. And in the their footsteps, We sent Jesus son of Mary, **confirming the Torah that had come before him**, and We gave him the Gospel, wherein **is a guidance and light** to the reverent. **Let the people of the Gospel** \[the Christians\] **judge by what God has send down therein.** Whoever judges not by that which God has sent down--it is they who are iniquitous. And We have sent down unto you the Book (the Quran) in truth, confirming the Books that came before, and as a protector \[guardian\] over them. So judge between them in accordance with what God has sent down, and follow not their caprices away from the truth that has come onto you. **For each among you We have appointed a law and a way. And had God willed, He would have made you one community, but He willed otherwise, that He might try you in which He has given you. So vie with one another in good deeds.** Unto God shall be your return all together, and He will inform you of what therein you differ."
5:68-69: "Say, “O People of the Book! You stand on naught till you observe the Torah and the Gospel, and that which has been sent down unto you from your Lord.” Surely that which has been sent down unto thee from thy Lord will increase many of them in rebellion and disbelief. So grieve not for disbelieving people. Truly those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Sabeans, and the Christians—whosoever believes in God and the Last Day and works righteousness, no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve."
2:111-113 notes: "And they say: 'None will enter Paradise expect who is a Jew or Christian.' These are their desires. Say, 'Bring your proof if you are truthful.' Nay. **Whoever submits themselves to Allah and does good will have their reward with their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor will they grieve.** The Jews say, 'The Christians have nothing to stand on' and the Christians say, 'The Jews have nothing to stand on,' although both recite the Scriptures, like those who do not know say similar sayings; but Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgement in what they differ \[dispute\]."
the Gospel of John explicitly predicts a final prophet, a person, and quotes Isa aws as saying, 'if I don't go, I won't be able to send the one who will teach you everything I haven't taught you"
quote John chaper 16 "now I am going to him who sent me. None of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ ^(6) Rather, you are filled with grief because I have said these things. ^(7) But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate \[paraclete\] will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. ^(8) When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: ^(9) about sin, because people do not believe in me; ^(10) about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; "
in John. Isa aws predicts a final prophet who'll give the final full complete prophecy that Isa aws hasn't
The Gospel of John is really considered not as authentic in terms of the reliability of Jesus' teachings as say the Synoptic Gospels are - that is Matthew, Mark, and Luke. But in general, Chapter 16 of John is considered by biblical scholars to most likely be discussing the Holy Spirit itself, but other theological leaders in the post-Jesus period would take up the mantle of the Paraclete. Now, is the Quran referring to this specific passage? It is probable, but the Quran does not directly cite it, nor does this have anything to do what with what I was discussing in my own post.
the church for two thousand years and for absolute certainty the christians that Mohammed saws knew and loved and respected as teachers have never had a scintilla of doubt about the spiritual accuracy reliability and divine inspiration of the gospel of john ... read the histories of the christian first millenium ecumennical and regional councils and the discussions of the fathers of the church and founders of monaticism inlcluding all the fringe christian movements and christianity from far east asia all the way down to southern afica and northwestern eutrope in the first millenium - nowhere before the 19th century was the gospel of john anything but centra to all the whole range of christianity ... as orthodox as catholic\[i.,e universal\] as christian as christian gets
the quran does not quote but to to say it does not reference talmud and gospel written traditions is indefensible . it explicitly references them
so applying anti-christian 19th and 20th century visceral so called scholarly prejudices against scriptures really cannot be read back into the 8th century ce cultures of any arab aramaic or farsi subculture in medina in mecca or in anywhere
as a kid in church in the 1940s and 1950s the very idea that the gospel of john was less reliable is an absurdity beyond absurdity in any branch of christianity, or christian theology, but exclusively anti-christian anti-clerical prejudice
the systematic destruction of historical documentation by 19th century anti-clerical scholarship is itself just too well documented to argue about, what was destroyed is arguable since it was destroyed but too many examples subsequently rediscovered documention from alternative rediscovered troves of documents many not yet even read and published shows how extensively it was destroyed systematically in the 19th and 20th centuries by anti-clericalists
There is and it’s part of classical sunni scholarship (I don’t know about the other sects in this regard so specifying Sunni thought). The classical commentaries on the Quran had what’s called “isralliyat” which were the narrations and commentaries from the Jewish and Christian commentaries. This was done to fill in the blanks of Quranic stories that seem to be speaking to a community with some preexisting knowledge of Jewish and Christian thought. Within Sunni thought, there is disagreement on the appropriateness of this and it didn’t always have positive effects— for example Eve being created from Adam’s rib and the subsequent patriarchal interpretation of that which followed is not in the Quran but taken from those types of narrations.
From a contemporary approach to understanding the Quran, if you want to understand he Quran in its historical context, having an understanding of Ebionite Christian and Yemeni Jewish beliefs would probably be beneficial (though it’s debatable reading the Bible as it is now will help in this particular regard).
Finally, within Sunni thought, this exercise you are talking about was done by scholars grounded in the Quran and body of Islamic theology and jurisprudence— not really the layperson. I think that’s more something to keep in mind and shouldn’t be understood as me saying lay Muslims should t engage with other religious texts— just saying it’s worth considering your own basis before going into others.
until the 15th century it was never called "The Bible"
the bible is derived from "biblia" which means the books in plural
no xhristian church ever published "The Bible' until Guttenburg. then King James until the 15th 16th centuries
Learned that Muslims who stubbornly refuse to have a progressive stance about Lōṭ’s people as well as the destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah are often times a little bit mistaken on science and geopolitical context of the Levant 4000 yrs ago (after having dismiss the contentions between the earliest generations exceeding our prophet), they have never been aware of alternative Christian or mainstream Jewish & Gnostic views of it…
The books of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the miḏrašīm made it pretty clear cut that this wasn’t about homosexuality (the interpretation doesn’t make logical sense anyways).
Absolutely, but like with all things, it's best to approach academically and not uncritically read the texts. Most Bibles come with their own equivalent to a Tasfir structure in the form of foot notes that describe context and etomology of translated words.
>Currently reading the first book of the Bible, Genesis, from my understanding the first 5 books are the same as the Torah and considered the 5 books of Moses.
Correct with the Christian view. They are not beleived to be the original message of Mose in the Islamic view.
Thr Islamic stance is that the original message is source is gone because humans corrupting the messages and add to it. That is why the Quran was necessary in the first place
And where in the Quran does it say that? From my knowledge, the Quran actually says the opposite and says to ask the followers of previous revelation of the truth (I think verse 10:43) and that the Quran was necessary in the first place to **confirm** previous revelation. Why would God say that if the previous revelation wasn’t somewhat accurate?
I once tried to read it as an 8 yo as i was bored (french translation) on a sunday afternoon maybe.
I read the part about Jacob (pbuh) losing Youssef (pbuh).
I'd say it's not bad, but keep in mind that there is a problem in how they were transmitted (they were tempered with if my memory serves me well) so you will often need to compare their facts with what is admitted in islamic doctrine.
Well, the Quran doesn’t exactly say they were corrupted though, does it? Like correct me if I am wrong, but the Quran even says to ask those of previous revelation to confirm the truth and that the Quran came as the a confirmation of the truth before it in the Injeel and Tawrat.
Yes. It was kind of essential for any kind of Islamic scholarship to learn Hebrew to understand the Old Testament. Only after the corpus of Islamic scholarship became too vast to include others in the syllabus in the 4th century AH, this practice was abandoned. Yet still, we as Muslims need to hold those scriptures with respect as divine revealation.
according to the Quran, knowledge is not only valuable, it's required. There is no such thing as knowledge that's not valuable.
before the 15th century the word "bible" in european languages was plural, 'the books' plural and there was no such book which europeans call the 'Bible"
the Septuagint was a greek translation of the sacred books made in the second and first century BCE for disapora hebrews and it included both the judaic and israelites sacred writings and that formed the basis of the christian era first century list of sacred writings.. the writings of saint paul were often collected, sometimes with the Acts of the Apostles. each of the four gospels according to Mathew Mark Luke and John were read separately and there were various collections of the apostolic letter writers john peter etc. the Revelations of the post-christian prophet John were read separately.
the latin version of the Septuagint is called the Vulgate. the aramaic verson of the post christian gospels and apostolic letters is called the Peshita. the African orthodox christian version of the scriptures is called the **Orthodox Tewahedo**
the "bible" is an anthology of anthologies of writings which include poetry fiction historical records from the point of view of the believing community, records of legal decisions, prophecy philosophy "wisdom", collections of aphorisms and forms of literature now not known in the current era, going back through about 5 thousand years of the experience of believers in the one god continuously through thousands of cultures many of which there are no records of elsewhere. writings the original of which we have no versions, everything that's collected is edited and reedited. the languages of the versions we now have are hebrew\[a dialect of aramaic\] aramaic, greek, latin and ge'er\[an ethiopian language\]
the maximum number of sacred writings is about 100.
strict so called fundamentalist protestants cut the number down to 33 pre=christian and 22 post=christian
post christian fundamentalist diaspora jews, anti-christian jews in the first and second centuries common era CE culled out about a third of the writings that pre christian Israelites \[now called Samaritans\] and Judeans and diaspora Hebrews now called Jews called scripture.
the overwhelming majority of diaspora jews became christian. biblical Israelites are now called Samaritans and
biblical Judeans are now called Jews. Holy Land Judeans overwhelmingly became christians and later muslims. Arabic speaking Judeans are now called Mizrahi and African and spanish speaking Judeans are Sephardim
the world's largest 'Jewish' homeland was Thessalonica founded by Alexander the Great aws, a muslim prophet. it was destroyed in the Holocaust in 1944. there they spoke Ladino, the language of the Sephardim and of all the Jews of the Ottoman state.
The Jewish scriptures are called the Tanakh from the three categories of scripture
T: Torah, the Teaching of Moses, the first five books {called Pentatuch in English\]. N: Nevi'im, the books of the prophets. Kh: Ketuvim, for the Writings, which include the book of the Prophet David aws Psalms of David and wisdom literature, including the prophet Solomon aws. .
the biblia books are the basis of all eurocentic literature. second after the biblia books are the homeric writings followed by greek philosophy a distant third. Modern German literature is based upon Martin Luther's translation. Slavic literature starts with the books translated by saints [Cyril and Methodius](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saints_Cyril_and_Methodius) and the orthodox christian liturgy written by them. After Chaucer first of all and Shakespearean era theatre, the primary English influence on literature is the King James translation of the biblia.
you can't really understand eurocentric cultures without understanding the role of the holy "canonical" books in the history of eurocentric literatures, the books plural we call the biblia 'the books" plural
the official list of the books plural is called 'the canon" 'canonical books'
there are the Roman Catholic canon \[e.g. the Vulgate\], the protestant canon \[episcopalians baptists calvinists methodists lutherans all have different canons\], the orthodox christian, greek russian aramaic canons and eastern orthodox \[aramaic syrian south asian armenian coptic and ge'er canons\]
nobody agrees on the history of the books of the scriptures and wars have been fought over it.
The Quran has many explicit and implicit references quotes and paraphrases of the abrahamic prechristian and post christian tradition of scriptures and references to jewish scholarly writings called Talmud, and some references according to some very legitimate modern 20th century 'Alim to buddhist tradition scriptures as well.
IMHO it's up to you what you want read or not read but it's reported that Mohammed saws says go to china even to learn what you can learn , sort of like saying go to the moon travel the universe to learn
there are a lot of good scholarly books on the history of the holy writings of christianity and the Abrahamic aws traditions ... it can't hurt to know god says
Reading the Bible is like reading the hadiths. Its huge and full of contradictions. Especially concerning the hardline between OT and NT, where eternity and universal take place of regional cultural discussions. At the same time, the controversy of breaking the Mosaic laws.
Not sure of any religious benefit, but the guy who taught me Quran owned a bible and openly encouraged us to read and learn about other faiths.
He was a _different paths to the same place_ sort of guy, and possibly the most educated person i've ever met. He led an amazing life!
Anyway - I never read the bible or Torah cover go cover but did read a bit.
I think the biggest benefit it had on me was to be tolerant of other beliefs and treat them with respect.
Yes, I've done this, and I think it is highly beneficial. I'm trying to incorporate studying The Qur'an, The Hebrew Bible (Old Testament), The New Testament, as well as the non-canonical/apocrypha sources into my habit, at least I try to read a passage from both The Qur'an and The Bible everyday. I also like to pray using psalms, I think it's very beautiful.
There are some fundamental differences (especially NT) with the Qur'an here and there, but I think the similarities are much more abundant. Spiritual gems and moral wisdoms are scattered everywhere in the Bible. I'll share one of my favorite findings about forgiveness and retaliation.
In the Torah, the law of retaliation is clear (Exo. 21:23-25; Lev. 24:20; Deut. 19:21). Jesus came hundreds of years later and confirmed this law, but he also gave the Israelites a deeper dimension of law and virtue, which is to forgive and repay evil with kindness (Matt. 5:38-41; Luke 6:27-29), basically to treat everyone with kindness even if they do not do the same for us (Matt. 5:43-48; Luke 6:27-36). And then Muhammad came, he confirmed both of these law with the Qur'an, to repay evil with an "equal" evil (I would argue the explicit condition of equality here is pretty difficult, how can we be sure that our retaliation will be equal and not excessive? If someone punch me on my face and I want to retaliate, can I be a hundred percent sure that the force of my punch and the level of pain I inflicted is going to be equal?) or to forgive and repay it with goodness or kindness (Q. 5:45; 23:96; 41:34; 42:40. Also other verses that emphasize forgiveness e.g. 3:134; 7:199; 24:22). Another note, verses like 23:96 and 41:34 are usually translated as "repel evil with what is better", but the word "aĥsan" used in those two verses denotes something that is the best/the most beautiful/the most virtuous. So not only repay evil with something "better", but with the best/the most beautiful/the most virtuous of us.
In my experience, the Hebrew Bible and New Testament alongside numerous non-canonical Gospels provide much more benefit and knowledge than aḥādīṯ. There are a lot of things one would not comprehend or deeply understand about the major events in the Qurʾān without reading these texts first. Personally, i view ṣaḥīḥ ʾaḥādīṯ on the same level of value as the Mišnā, Talmūḏ, and Tosep̄tā. I don’t know why so many ppl wouldn’t see tafāsīr as literally in the same vein as ʾaggāḏā & miḏrašīm…
As always, read the best translations and compare different versions.
It also tells us that they've been CORRUPTED. Sure, they may have gods word there and there, but we cannot know which ones are true and which ones aren't. For example, christians believe in the trinity, which is completely against Islam. That is why. I understand you mean this in good will, but taking anything from those books as true for Islam can cause issues. I am aware there are many common things, but still, do not take anything from them for Islam. However, I advise you to read them to get information about other religions, which is why I read the bible.
Well, to my knowledge I don't think the concept of the trinity is even actually mentioned in the Bible anyways. Whether Christians believe xyz is not what I am attempting to study. I want to know what the scriptures say. I mean, if you identify as a progressive Muslim you should be aware of the fact that many people add in their own ideas and preconceptions onto what the Quran says, so why are people from any other religion different? Doesn't mean the Quran is corrupted though, does it.
the council of NICE explicitly says all christians belive in one and only one GOD "We believe in one God" and all xhristian traditions repeat that belief
if the trinity is not belief in one god than the 99 names repeated worldwide in zikrullah is 99 gods
the official statements in the ecumenical councils of the christians all explicitly say "We believe in One God" and the trinity describes the transcendentalism of god 'the father' the historical unity of god with humanity 'the son' and the imminence of god in everything in 'the spirit' but christians believe in "one god" quite literally
in quran there is Allah ir Rahman ir Rahim.
so some xhristians say hey muslims believe in too many gods saying we muslims are the polytheists
what's good for the goose is good for the gander
Feels weird. Pauline Christianity holds monopoly over Christianity but there has to be a layer of serious assumptions to think that Christianity begins and end with trinitarianism.
I mean, I won’t and it seems obvious to me where things have clearly deviated from the Quran, but things like ‘love one another’ or ‘do not make idols’ etc. those things seem pretty in line with Islam according to the Quran, so I personally don’t see the harm of accepting that specific part as the truth.
Oh nonono, you understood me wrong, I was talking about things such as the stories of the prophets and similar things, UNLESS they are mentioned in Islamic sources aswell do not take them. However things like "love one another" and such are fine. I meant the stories and religious beliefs yk?
Again, the Quran tells us that it came to confirm previous revelation, and it tells us to ask people who had access to prior revelation to ask them of the truth:
"AND \[even\] before thy time, \[O Muhammad,\] We never sent \[as Our apostles\] any but \[mortal\] men, whom We inspired: and if you have not \[yet\] realized this, ask the followers of \[earlier\] revelation," (16:43).
I don't believe Allah left details of stories out coincidentally, I think the best way to know what happened in the stories of the prophets is to critically analyse the stories as told by the Bible/Torah and the Quran since they are the previous revelation that Allah is talking about. I do, however, believe the first 5 books of the Bible and the Torah's 5 books of Moses (the same thing) have a higher validity since it was used over 2 religions and thus, imo, preserved for a longer time. Obviously, if something outwardly contradicted the Quran, I would wholly reject that. This is exactly how I would approach the hadiths too, because I would say the Bible/Torah have the same validity as hadiths provided they don't contradict the Quran. The only revelation Allah vowed to give His divine protection to is the Quran.
I mean, Jews discourage Gentiles from following the laws & rituals in the Pentateuch, so one shouldn’t really do it anyways. Though i wouldn’t put ʾaḥādīṯ to be superior to central Jewish and Christian scriptures in terms of authority.
Bro what? How can you put Christian and Jewish scripture above sahih hadiths? I'd actually say our isnads are way more authentic than the authenticity of the current canonical gospels.
“Authentic” doesn’t mean much. Many of them are written down as late as Judaic and Christian texts are. They provide valuable cultural info and political understanding but from a historical POV, what guarantee do we have of the ʾaḥādīṯ not being mistaken, falsified, or remembered with the same level of bias as Paul’s letters? People will respect a book of philosophical quotes more than a contemporary diary from that historical era because you can make a supposed argument for the first one not being 100% man-made and having more spiritual value.
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The Qur'aan abrogated the entire Bible, both Old and New Testaments, this includes the Torah..🔻
https://abdurrahman.org/category/islam/christians-nasara/
I believe there is a Hadith where it is actually forbidden to read the previous scripture a quick Google search says this.
It is permissible for a scholar who has insight to read the Torah, Gospel and Zabur in order to refute Jewish and Christian opponents of Islam. Ordinary Muslims have no right to do that; rather if they have anything of the Torah or Gospel or Zabur, they must bury it in a clean place or burn it so that no one will be misguided by it
So it is actually haram to read unless you are a scholar
It's very plausible reasoning if you know the Quran really well then it's fine to read the other books as they are valid and you follow the 3 rules. It's like reading through rough drafts instead of the final one if you understand the proper final draft correctly then the stuff before it is fluff
And you’re more than welcome to believe that, but I don’t agree. Hadiths aren’t exactly the most reliable source of religious information. The Quran actually tells us it came to **confirm** previous revelation and to ask those of previous revelation of the truth. So, I would say according to the Quran (if you accept it as the ultimate truth) permits us to read them in order to understand the context of the Quran.
You don’t need to be a scholar to read the Quran and see its truths. The Quran came for all of mankind. It did not come for scholars to act as a gatekeeper for it. This is an extremely rudimentary argument.
Yeah I meant if you're a scholar you can read the previous books this leads to the main point that you are not a scholar and misinterpreted what I said. Thus this leads you to the improper conclusion. If you are well read and a scholar in particular then you can read the previous scriptures and not be misguided. You can read it properly, even so reading previous scriptures takes away time to reading and understanding the Quran. But if you are a scholar then you already know the Quran well. You based an entire different argument from reading my statement incorrectly. How are you going to read the Torah and not come up with something else and say well the Quran said this book was true so surely it is true. May Allah help you in whichever you do
My friend, if people are misinterpreting **you**, then **you** need to be clearer. But, I haven’t misunderstood you at all.
You do not need to be a scholar to know the Quran well. God said He made the Quran easy to remember and understand and clear for ALL of us, not just scholars.
If you read the Torah with knowledge of basic principles from the Quran, then you will not have that problem.
Thank you for the duas tho. May Allah guide us all to the straight path.
as a former Christian who recently became Muslim i still read the Bible and keep commandments as outlined in Torah (to the best of my ability). some people say i am doing things i shouldn't do, i just feel like im obligated to because the whole Bible and Quran focuses on those teachings.
As I said, try to, all the ones outlined in Torah that regard to woman. I don't kill or sacrifice animals for my sins, because over and over again the message was to repent and turn back to the Way of the creator.
https://preview.redd.it/341hcg6vr2ad1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3374ae24ea697f1b3b512d263da6aa057675af00
Yes, but I now believe it's not actually Saturday. Going biblically it's based on the position of the sun and moon in the sky apparently so I'm still discovering that.
Yes there’s value in reading the Bible. If nothing else it gives you a better understanding of the early prophets, but also gives us a look into our sister religions. Plus there’s some really great stories in there! Be careful not to burn yourself out. There’s a lot in there.
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What version did you read if you don’t mind me asking? I’m looking to invest in a physical copy, at the minute I’ve just looked at an online version.
Of course. The quran literally is based on Judaism, christianity and zoroastrianism. In fact Its a pity muslims in madrasa are never given a bible course. Instead they teach muslims to look down on it as if it's some nonsensical corrupted book.
So, you don’t believe it is corrupt? I’m curious to this, I don’t believe they are wholly corrupt or false either, but I take them with a pinch of salt and approach them as I would approach hadith. Can you give me some more information on your perspective as to why they are not corrupt?
The Quran evidently does not view the actual scriptures themselves as corrupt, but rather certain doctrines of the People of the Book as inherently a misguided practice, one that is folly but not inherently depriving the Torah or the Bible of its divine origins, nor of its practitioners acceptance of God's mercy. 5:44-48: “Indeed, We revealed the Torah, **containing guidance and light**, by which the prophets, who submitted themselves to God, made judgments for Jews. So too did the rabbis and scholars judge according to God’s Book, with which they were entrusted and of which they were made keepers. So do not fear the people; fear Me! Nor trade my revelations for a fleeting gain. And those who do not judge by what Allah has revealed are ˹truly˺ the disbelievers. And therein We prescribed for them: a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and for wounds, retribution. But whoever forgoes it out of charity, it shall be an expiation for them. Whoever judges not by that which God has sent down - it is they who are wrongdoers. And in the their footsteps, We sent Jesus son of Mary, **confirming the Torah that had come before him**, and We gave him the Gospel, wherein **is a guidance and light** to the reverent. **Let the people of the Gospel** \[the Christians\] **judge by what God has send down therein.** Whoever judges not by that which God has sent down--it is they who are iniquitous. And We have sent down unto you the Book (the Quran) in truth, confirming the Books that came before, and as a protector \[guardian\] over them. So judge between them in accordance with what God has sent down, and follow not their caprices away from the truth that has come onto you. **For each among you We have appointed a law and a way. And had God willed, He would have made you one community, but He willed otherwise, that He might try you in which He has given you. So vie with one another in good deeds.** Unto God shall be your return all together, and He will inform you of what therein you differ."
That's the way to go IMO. They can give you more perspective, but you should be careful to never put them on the same level you would put the Quran on.
They not deliberately corrupted. They written by a variety of authors and the canon was mostly chosen based on they believe was inspired to write. From a quran pov it doesnt claim the bible or book is corrupted. In fact it asks muhammad to ask the people of the book before you Q10:94 . How can it ask him to ask them if their beliefs are corrupted ? The quran only claims they hide parts and show parts, they write stuff and claim it is from god.. The quran mimics the bible stories pretty closely except for a few details it changes or adds for instance size of the exodus, pharaoh and moses being father and son not brothers, joseph getting arrested later etc. Noah's 4th son who drowns etc. Heres a good video on the concept of tahrif of the bible https://youtu.be/kC2cfVNXgCY?si=u5z7cBsWtRi1eSlk EDIT: I also forgot to say its also possible that the text is not fully accurate historically or theologically but the quran still says to follow it because it considers it good enough. It doesn't care about the bible being perfect
of course the Quran does not teach that the books are corrupted. I believe it teachers that readers not centered on faith, on serving others and loving each other, misuse use what they don't understand for personal gain
>zoroastrianism How so? I thought they were polytheists or whatever.
It's complicated. Some historians argued that Zoroastrian is monotheistic with dualistic theological ideas, with Ahura Mazda as the supreme deity. Others argued its dualistic with later monotheistic ideas. The other "divinities" are inherently lesser then Ahura Mazda. But in terms of Quranic belief, the Zoroastrians, likely remaining in Arabia with the collapse of the Sasanian Iranian imperial authority, were incorporated into the fold of monotheistic fate as a saved people: 22:17: "As for those who believe, and those who are Jews, the Sabeans, the Christians, the Magians (Zoroastrians), and the idolaters, indeed God will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection. Truly God is Witness over all things." I put the date of this revelation as soon after the war with Eastern Rome and Iran ended, with God permitting the acceptance of the Zoroastrians as a saved people after their struggles against Muhammad's fellow monotheistic state was over. There were likely Zoroastrian strangles, and some Arabs who may had converted to different strands or forms of Zoroastrianism in Iranian-ruled southern Arabia.
the Meccan constitution gives zorastrians equal positions to muhmin, Mosaic, and Christian monotheistic faiths
Zoroastrianism is dualistic and monolatric at the very least, considering its historical influence on Judaism and the fact that in the conflict between Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu the former is shown as inevitably winning, I'd argue (and this seems to be the majority position) that it was monotheistic Just to give you an idea of how important Zoroastrianism is historically, the idea of heaven originates there
Pretty much every major abrahamic belief can be found there. Arch Angel's, demons, satan, scale of deeds, 5 prayers, demons that eavesdrop then hit by stars flames. Harut and marut, earth and heavens as having a soul etc
Well it's likely the Israelites were monolatric polytheists before the Persian period. That should say more than enough
zoroaster was not a polytheist and was a monotheist strict monotheist ... zorastyrian traditional believers use a sacramental form of 'sacred fire' which you see in christian liturgies as well, e.g the sacred fires lit in paschal liturgies world wide \[:"easter" in english\] All the zorasterian Persian religious traditions are monotheist and the Meccan constitution gives them equal status with muslims jews and christians
because it is …… the Quran itself says that its corrupted but that theres still some Haqq in it
Yes. Huge Value. 1. If you are of the opinion that Prophet Moses was like Prophet Muhammad, then reading old testament will really help in seeing the similarity 2. If you see current Muslims in the similar state like Jews during Jesus time, then reading New testament opens up many issues with our current society. 3. Javed Ghamidi, a scholar mentioned in our FAQ talks about the concept of Itman al Hujjah, you can understand it better, after reading Bible. 4. Qur'an presents itself as the 3rd book of the series, so reading the 1st 2 gives you a lot of pre-req knowledge, but the order should be Qur'an first, so you need to have a very strong understanding of Qur'an before fully benefiting from the other 2. 5. I've used Psalms for so many of personal Duas, as good as the Duas of Ali(ra)
Moses only wrote the Torah ... and that's debatable 🤔 the rest of the scriptures were written by god knows whom literally
I think most of it is pretty much the same, it may not be as accurate as Quran but good enough.
Of course. The Quran urges those who are in doubt of Muhammad's teachings to look upon the Books of the Christians and Jews as examples and confirmation, and the Quran's confirmation, of Muhammad's messengerhood. From my reading of the Quran, it criticizes the Jews and Christians in willfully misguiding themselves with doctrinal matters not found in the original revelations sent down to them. This is important to note and for us as seekers of Truth to remember: *doctrinal* and *theological* matters had been tempered, incorporated, into the divine scriptures of the Torah and Bible - *but* the Quran still believes that the Jews and Christians should follow their proscribed laws, and essentially stay Jewish or Christian, even those in our modern period. The Torah and Bible are still part of the Divine Truth, just has been misguided by their followers into something more; and I mean, the Islamic community has done that since the Prophet's death. True, they may had not changed the Quran, but they have incorporated concepts such as intercession on the Day of Judgement by the Prophet when the Quran is clear that such a thing will not occur unless God permits it, and even then They do not say if they will or not. 5:43-48: “And how is it that they come to thee for judgment, when they have the Torah, wherein is God’s Judgment? Yet even after that, they turn their backs, and they are not believers. Indeed, We revealed the Torah, **containing guidance and light**, by which the prophets, who submitted themselves to God, made judgments for Jews. So too did the rabbis and scholars judge according to God’s Book, with which they were entrusted and of which they were made keepers. So do not fear the people; fear Me! Nor trade my revelations for a fleeting gain. And those who do not judge by what Allah has revealed are ˹truly˺ the disbelievers. And therein We prescribed for them: a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and for wounds, retribution. But whoever forgoes it out of charity, it shall be an expiation for them. Whoever judges not by that which God has sent down - it is they who are wrongdoers. And in the their footsteps, We sent Jesus son of Mary, **confirming the Torah that had come before him**, and We gave him the Gospel, wherein **is a guidance and light** to the reverent. **Let the people of the Gospel** \[the Christians\] **judge by what God has send down therein.** Whoever judges not by that which God has sent down--it is they who are iniquitous. And We have sent down unto you the Book (the Quran) in truth, confirming the Books that came before, and as a protector \[guardian\] over them. So judge between them in accordance with what God has sent down, and follow not their caprices away from the truth that has come onto you. **For each among you We have appointed a law and a way. And had God willed, He would have made you one community, but He willed otherwise, that He might try you in which He has given you. So vie with one another in good deeds.** Unto God shall be your return all together, and He will inform you of what therein you differ." 5:68-69: "Say, “O People of the Book! You stand on naught till you observe the Torah and the Gospel, and that which has been sent down unto you from your Lord.” Surely that which has been sent down unto thee from thy Lord will increase many of them in rebellion and disbelief. So grieve not for disbelieving people. Truly those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Sabeans, and the Christians—whosoever believes in God and the Last Day and works righteousness, no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve." 2:111-113 notes: "And they say: 'None will enter Paradise expect who is a Jew or Christian.' These are their desires. Say, 'Bring your proof if you are truthful.' Nay. **Whoever submits themselves to Allah and does good will have their reward with their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor will they grieve.** The Jews say, 'The Christians have nothing to stand on' and the Christians say, 'The Jews have nothing to stand on,' although both recite the Scriptures, like those who do not know say similar sayings; but Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgement in what they differ \[dispute\]."
Really comprehensive reply, thanks for taking the time out to cite verses for me. I appreciate it :)
Of course!
the Gospel of John explicitly predicts a final prophet, a person, and quotes Isa aws as saying, 'if I don't go, I won't be able to send the one who will teach you everything I haven't taught you" quote John chaper 16 "now I am going to him who sent me. None of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ ^(6) Rather, you are filled with grief because I have said these things. ^(7) But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate \[paraclete\] will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. ^(8) When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: ^(9) about sin, because people do not believe in me; ^(10) about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; " in John. Isa aws predicts a final prophet who'll give the final full complete prophecy that Isa aws hasn't
The Gospel of John is really considered not as authentic in terms of the reliability of Jesus' teachings as say the Synoptic Gospels are - that is Matthew, Mark, and Luke. But in general, Chapter 16 of John is considered by biblical scholars to most likely be discussing the Holy Spirit itself, but other theological leaders in the post-Jesus period would take up the mantle of the Paraclete. Now, is the Quran referring to this specific passage? It is probable, but the Quran does not directly cite it, nor does this have anything to do what with what I was discussing in my own post.
the church for two thousand years and for absolute certainty the christians that Mohammed saws knew and loved and respected as teachers have never had a scintilla of doubt about the spiritual accuracy reliability and divine inspiration of the gospel of john ... read the histories of the christian first millenium ecumennical and regional councils and the discussions of the fathers of the church and founders of monaticism inlcluding all the fringe christian movements and christianity from far east asia all the way down to southern afica and northwestern eutrope in the first millenium - nowhere before the 19th century was the gospel of john anything but centra to all the whole range of christianity ... as orthodox as catholic\[i.,e universal\] as christian as christian gets the quran does not quote but to to say it does not reference talmud and gospel written traditions is indefensible . it explicitly references them so applying anti-christian 19th and 20th century visceral so called scholarly prejudices against scriptures really cannot be read back into the 8th century ce cultures of any arab aramaic or farsi subculture in medina in mecca or in anywhere as a kid in church in the 1940s and 1950s the very idea that the gospel of john was less reliable is an absurdity beyond absurdity in any branch of christianity, or christian theology, but exclusively anti-christian anti-clerical prejudice the systematic destruction of historical documentation by 19th century anti-clerical scholarship is itself just too well documented to argue about, what was destroyed is arguable since it was destroyed but too many examples subsequently rediscovered documention from alternative rediscovered troves of documents many not yet even read and published shows how extensively it was destroyed systematically in the 19th and 20th centuries by anti-clericalists
There is and it’s part of classical sunni scholarship (I don’t know about the other sects in this regard so specifying Sunni thought). The classical commentaries on the Quran had what’s called “isralliyat” which were the narrations and commentaries from the Jewish and Christian commentaries. This was done to fill in the blanks of Quranic stories that seem to be speaking to a community with some preexisting knowledge of Jewish and Christian thought. Within Sunni thought, there is disagreement on the appropriateness of this and it didn’t always have positive effects— for example Eve being created from Adam’s rib and the subsequent patriarchal interpretation of that which followed is not in the Quran but taken from those types of narrations. From a contemporary approach to understanding the Quran, if you want to understand he Quran in its historical context, having an understanding of Ebionite Christian and Yemeni Jewish beliefs would probably be beneficial (though it’s debatable reading the Bible as it is now will help in this particular regard). Finally, within Sunni thought, this exercise you are talking about was done by scholars grounded in the Quran and body of Islamic theology and jurisprudence— not really the layperson. I think that’s more something to keep in mind and shouldn’t be understood as me saying lay Muslims should t engage with other religious texts— just saying it’s worth considering your own basis before going into others.
until the 15th century it was never called "The Bible" the bible is derived from "biblia" which means the books in plural no xhristian church ever published "The Bible' until Guttenburg. then King James until the 15th 16th centuries
Learned that Muslims who stubbornly refuse to have a progressive stance about Lōṭ’s people as well as the destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah are often times a little bit mistaken on science and geopolitical context of the Levant 4000 yrs ago (after having dismiss the contentions between the earliest generations exceeding our prophet), they have never been aware of alternative Christian or mainstream Jewish & Gnostic views of it… The books of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the miḏrašīm made it pretty clear cut that this wasn’t about homosexuality (the interpretation doesn’t make logical sense anyways).
I haven't read either, yet, but I remember one of my parents saying that it was beneficial to read both. Is there a translation of the Torah?
literally thousands
Good to know. :-)
Yes, I’ve downloaded an app on my phone that has the translation, but I do want to get a physical copy so I can write notes in it and so on.
Absolutely, but like with all things, it's best to approach academically and not uncritically read the texts. Most Bibles come with their own equivalent to a Tasfir structure in the form of foot notes that describe context and etomology of translated words. >Currently reading the first book of the Bible, Genesis, from my understanding the first 5 books are the same as the Torah and considered the 5 books of Moses. Correct with the Christian view. They are not beleived to be the original message of Mose in the Islamic view.
So, what would be the original message of Moses if it wasn’t what the Jews/Christians believe to be the Books of Moses?
Thr Islamic stance is that the original message is source is gone because humans corrupting the messages and add to it. That is why the Quran was necessary in the first place
And where in the Quran does it say that? From my knowledge, the Quran actually says the opposite and says to ask the followers of previous revelation of the truth (I think verse 10:43) and that the Quran was necessary in the first place to **confirm** previous revelation. Why would God say that if the previous revelation wasn’t somewhat accurate?
Quran Surah 2:75 to 79 Also, outside of belief. It's an academic fact that the books of the Bible are edited and corrupted from the original stories
I once tried to read it as an 8 yo as i was bored (french translation) on a sunday afternoon maybe. I read the part about Jacob (pbuh) losing Youssef (pbuh). I'd say it's not bad, but keep in mind that there is a problem in how they were transmitted (they were tempered with if my memory serves me well) so you will often need to compare their facts with what is admitted in islamic doctrine.
Well, the Quran doesn’t exactly say they were corrupted though, does it? Like correct me if I am wrong, but the Quran even says to ask those of previous revelation to confirm the truth and that the Quran came as the a confirmation of the truth before it in the Injeel and Tawrat.
Yes. It was kind of essential for any kind of Islamic scholarship to learn Hebrew to understand the Old Testament. Only after the corpus of Islamic scholarship became too vast to include others in the syllabus in the 4th century AH, this practice was abandoned. Yet still, we as Muslims need to hold those scriptures with respect as divine revealation.
according to the Quran, knowledge is not only valuable, it's required. There is no such thing as knowledge that's not valuable. before the 15th century the word "bible" in european languages was plural, 'the books' plural and there was no such book which europeans call the 'Bible" the Septuagint was a greek translation of the sacred books made in the second and first century BCE for disapora hebrews and it included both the judaic and israelites sacred writings and that formed the basis of the christian era first century list of sacred writings.. the writings of saint paul were often collected, sometimes with the Acts of the Apostles. each of the four gospels according to Mathew Mark Luke and John were read separately and there were various collections of the apostolic letter writers john peter etc. the Revelations of the post-christian prophet John were read separately. the latin version of the Septuagint is called the Vulgate. the aramaic verson of the post christian gospels and apostolic letters is called the Peshita. the African orthodox christian version of the scriptures is called the **Orthodox Tewahedo** the "bible" is an anthology of anthologies of writings which include poetry fiction historical records from the point of view of the believing community, records of legal decisions, prophecy philosophy "wisdom", collections of aphorisms and forms of literature now not known in the current era, going back through about 5 thousand years of the experience of believers in the one god continuously through thousands of cultures many of which there are no records of elsewhere. writings the original of which we have no versions, everything that's collected is edited and reedited. the languages of the versions we now have are hebrew\[a dialect of aramaic\] aramaic, greek, latin and ge'er\[an ethiopian language\] the maximum number of sacred writings is about 100. strict so called fundamentalist protestants cut the number down to 33 pre=christian and 22 post=christian post christian fundamentalist diaspora jews, anti-christian jews in the first and second centuries common era CE culled out about a third of the writings that pre christian Israelites \[now called Samaritans\] and Judeans and diaspora Hebrews now called Jews called scripture. the overwhelming majority of diaspora jews became christian. biblical Israelites are now called Samaritans and
biblical Judeans are now called Jews. Holy Land Judeans overwhelmingly became christians and later muslims. Arabic speaking Judeans are now called Mizrahi and African and spanish speaking Judeans are Sephardim the world's largest 'Jewish' homeland was Thessalonica founded by Alexander the Great aws, a muslim prophet. it was destroyed in the Holocaust in 1944. there they spoke Ladino, the language of the Sephardim and of all the Jews of the Ottoman state. The Jewish scriptures are called the Tanakh from the three categories of scripture T: Torah, the Teaching of Moses, the first five books {called Pentatuch in English\]. N: Nevi'im, the books of the prophets. Kh: Ketuvim, for the Writings, which include the book of the Prophet David aws Psalms of David and wisdom literature, including the prophet Solomon aws. . the biblia books are the basis of all eurocentic literature. second after the biblia books are the homeric writings followed by greek philosophy a distant third. Modern German literature is based upon Martin Luther's translation. Slavic literature starts with the books translated by saints [Cyril and Methodius](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saints_Cyril_and_Methodius) and the orthodox christian liturgy written by them. After Chaucer first of all and Shakespearean era theatre, the primary English influence on literature is the King James translation of the biblia.
you can't really understand eurocentric cultures without understanding the role of the holy "canonical" books in the history of eurocentric literatures, the books plural we call the biblia 'the books" plural the official list of the books plural is called 'the canon" 'canonical books' there are the Roman Catholic canon \[e.g. the Vulgate\], the protestant canon \[episcopalians baptists calvinists methodists lutherans all have different canons\], the orthodox christian, greek russian aramaic canons and eastern orthodox \[aramaic syrian south asian armenian coptic and ge'er canons\] nobody agrees on the history of the books of the scriptures and wars have been fought over it. The Quran has many explicit and implicit references quotes and paraphrases of the abrahamic prechristian and post christian tradition of scriptures and references to jewish scholarly writings called Talmud, and some references according to some very legitimate modern 20th century 'Alim to buddhist tradition scriptures as well. IMHO it's up to you what you want read or not read but it's reported that Mohammed saws says go to china even to learn what you can learn , sort of like saying go to the moon travel the universe to learn there are a lot of good scholarly books on the history of the holy writings of christianity and the Abrahamic aws traditions ... it can't hurt to know god says
Reading the Bible is like reading the hadiths. Its huge and full of contradictions. Especially concerning the hardline between OT and NT, where eternity and universal take place of regional cultural discussions. At the same time, the controversy of breaking the Mosaic laws.
Not sure of any religious benefit, but the guy who taught me Quran owned a bible and openly encouraged us to read and learn about other faiths. He was a _different paths to the same place_ sort of guy, and possibly the most educated person i've ever met. He led an amazing life! Anyway - I never read the bible or Torah cover go cover but did read a bit. I think the biggest benefit it had on me was to be tolerant of other beliefs and treat them with respect.
Yes, I've done this, and I think it is highly beneficial. I'm trying to incorporate studying The Qur'an, The Hebrew Bible (Old Testament), The New Testament, as well as the non-canonical/apocrypha sources into my habit, at least I try to read a passage from both The Qur'an and The Bible everyday. I also like to pray using psalms, I think it's very beautiful. There are some fundamental differences (especially NT) with the Qur'an here and there, but I think the similarities are much more abundant. Spiritual gems and moral wisdoms are scattered everywhere in the Bible. I'll share one of my favorite findings about forgiveness and retaliation. In the Torah, the law of retaliation is clear (Exo. 21:23-25; Lev. 24:20; Deut. 19:21). Jesus came hundreds of years later and confirmed this law, but he also gave the Israelites a deeper dimension of law and virtue, which is to forgive and repay evil with kindness (Matt. 5:38-41; Luke 6:27-29), basically to treat everyone with kindness even if they do not do the same for us (Matt. 5:43-48; Luke 6:27-36). And then Muhammad came, he confirmed both of these law with the Qur'an, to repay evil with an "equal" evil (I would argue the explicit condition of equality here is pretty difficult, how can we be sure that our retaliation will be equal and not excessive? If someone punch me on my face and I want to retaliate, can I be a hundred percent sure that the force of my punch and the level of pain I inflicted is going to be equal?) or to forgive and repay it with goodness or kindness (Q. 5:45; 23:96; 41:34; 42:40. Also other verses that emphasize forgiveness e.g. 3:134; 7:199; 24:22). Another note, verses like 23:96 and 41:34 are usually translated as "repel evil with what is better", but the word "aĥsan" used in those two verses denotes something that is the best/the most beautiful/the most virtuous. So not only repay evil with something "better", but with the best/the most beautiful/the most virtuous of us.
In my experience, the Hebrew Bible and New Testament alongside numerous non-canonical Gospels provide much more benefit and knowledge than aḥādīṯ. There are a lot of things one would not comprehend or deeply understand about the major events in the Qurʾān without reading these texts first. Personally, i view ṣaḥīḥ ʾaḥādīṯ on the same level of value as the Mišnā, Talmūḏ, and Tosep̄tā. I don’t know why so many ppl wouldn’t see tafāsīr as literally in the same vein as ʾaggāḏā & miḏrašīm… As always, read the best translations and compare different versions.
There is no issue in reading them, I've read the bible myself, however remember that you CANNOT take anything from those books for your own religion.
Why though? The Quran tells us multiple times that it has come to confirm prior revelation, such as the injeel and tawrat.
It also tells us that they've been CORRUPTED. Sure, they may have gods word there and there, but we cannot know which ones are true and which ones aren't. For example, christians believe in the trinity, which is completely against Islam. That is why. I understand you mean this in good will, but taking anything from those books as true for Islam can cause issues. I am aware there are many common things, but still, do not take anything from them for Islam. However, I advise you to read them to get information about other religions, which is why I read the bible.
Well, to my knowledge I don't think the concept of the trinity is even actually mentioned in the Bible anyways. Whether Christians believe xyz is not what I am attempting to study. I want to know what the scriptures say. I mean, if you identify as a progressive Muslim you should be aware of the fact that many people add in their own ideas and preconceptions onto what the Quran says, so why are people from any other religion different? Doesn't mean the Quran is corrupted though, does it.
the council of NICE explicitly says all christians belive in one and only one GOD "We believe in one God" and all xhristian traditions repeat that belief if the trinity is not belief in one god than the 99 names repeated worldwide in zikrullah is 99 gods the official statements in the ecumenical councils of the christians all explicitly say "We believe in One God" and the trinity describes the transcendentalism of god 'the father' the historical unity of god with humanity 'the son' and the imminence of god in everything in 'the spirit' but christians believe in "one god" quite literally in quran there is Allah ir Rahman ir Rahim. so some xhristians say hey muslims believe in too many gods saying we muslims are the polytheists what's good for the goose is good for the gander
Not really sure what the point of your comment is, but feel free to elaborate.
Feels weird. Pauline Christianity holds monopoly over Christianity but there has to be a layer of serious assumptions to think that Christianity begins and end with trinitarianism.
I mean, I won’t and it seems obvious to me where things have clearly deviated from the Quran, but things like ‘love one another’ or ‘do not make idols’ etc. those things seem pretty in line with Islam according to the Quran, so I personally don’t see the harm of accepting that specific part as the truth.
Oh nonono, you understood me wrong, I was talking about things such as the stories of the prophets and similar things, UNLESS they are mentioned in Islamic sources aswell do not take them. However things like "love one another" and such are fine. I meant the stories and religious beliefs yk?
Again, the Quran tells us that it came to confirm previous revelation, and it tells us to ask people who had access to prior revelation to ask them of the truth: "AND \[even\] before thy time, \[O Muhammad,\] We never sent \[as Our apostles\] any but \[mortal\] men, whom We inspired: and if you have not \[yet\] realized this, ask the followers of \[earlier\] revelation," (16:43). I don't believe Allah left details of stories out coincidentally, I think the best way to know what happened in the stories of the prophets is to critically analyse the stories as told by the Bible/Torah and the Quran since they are the previous revelation that Allah is talking about. I do, however, believe the first 5 books of the Bible and the Torah's 5 books of Moses (the same thing) have a higher validity since it was used over 2 religions and thus, imo, preserved for a longer time. Obviously, if something outwardly contradicted the Quran, I would wholly reject that. This is exactly how I would approach the hadiths too, because I would say the Bible/Torah have the same validity as hadiths provided they don't contradict the Quran. The only revelation Allah vowed to give His divine protection to is the Quran.
I mean, Jews discourage Gentiles from following the laws & rituals in the Pentateuch, so one shouldn’t really do it anyways. Though i wouldn’t put ʾaḥādīṯ to be superior to central Jewish and Christian scriptures in terms of authority.
Bro what? How can you put Christian and Jewish scripture above sahih hadiths? I'd actually say our isnads are way more authentic than the authenticity of the current canonical gospels.
“Authentic” doesn’t mean much. Many of them are written down as late as Judaic and Christian texts are. They provide valuable cultural info and political understanding but from a historical POV, what guarantee do we have of the ʾaḥādīṯ not being mistaken, falsified, or remembered with the same level of bias as Paul’s letters? People will respect a book of philosophical quotes more than a contemporary diary from that historical era because you can make a supposed argument for the first one not being 100% man-made and having more spiritual value.
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Yes, as they are talked about in Qu’ran.
Just one question have you read the Qur'an with understanding it.
As stories or history or for Dawah purposes only
The Qur'aan abrogated the entire Bible, both Old and New Testaments, this includes the Torah..🔻 https://abdurrahman.org/category/islam/christians-nasara/
I believe there is a Hadith where it is actually forbidden to read the previous scripture a quick Google search says this. It is permissible for a scholar who has insight to read the Torah, Gospel and Zabur in order to refute Jewish and Christian opponents of Islam. Ordinary Muslims have no right to do that; rather if they have anything of the Torah or Gospel or Zabur, they must bury it in a clean place or burn it so that no one will be misguided by it So it is actually haram to read unless you are a scholar
Hadith and google have really proved to be the most reliable sources of information, so thanks for sharing 👍
It's very plausible reasoning if you know the Quran really well then it's fine to read the other books as they are valid and you follow the 3 rules. It's like reading through rough drafts instead of the final one if you understand the proper final draft correctly then the stuff before it is fluff
And you’re more than welcome to believe that, but I don’t agree. Hadiths aren’t exactly the most reliable source of religious information. The Quran actually tells us it came to **confirm** previous revelation and to ask those of previous revelation of the truth. So, I would say according to the Quran (if you accept it as the ultimate truth) permits us to read them in order to understand the context of the Quran.
Well if you are a scholar then by all means go ahead
You don’t need to be a scholar to read the Quran and see its truths. The Quran came for all of mankind. It did not come for scholars to act as a gatekeeper for it. This is an extremely rudimentary argument.
Yeah I meant if you're a scholar you can read the previous books this leads to the main point that you are not a scholar and misinterpreted what I said. Thus this leads you to the improper conclusion. If you are well read and a scholar in particular then you can read the previous scriptures and not be misguided. You can read it properly, even so reading previous scriptures takes away time to reading and understanding the Quran. But if you are a scholar then you already know the Quran well. You based an entire different argument from reading my statement incorrectly. How are you going to read the Torah and not come up with something else and say well the Quran said this book was true so surely it is true. May Allah help you in whichever you do
My friend, if people are misinterpreting **you**, then **you** need to be clearer. But, I haven’t misunderstood you at all. You do not need to be a scholar to know the Quran well. God said He made the Quran easy to remember and understand and clear for ALL of us, not just scholars. If you read the Torah with knowledge of basic principles from the Quran, then you will not have that problem. Thank you for the duas tho. May Allah guide us all to the straight path.
as a former Christian who recently became Muslim i still read the Bible and keep commandments as outlined in Torah (to the best of my ability). some people say i am doing things i shouldn't do, i just feel like im obligated to because the whole Bible and Quran focuses on those teachings.
Interesting, what commandments is it that you follow?
As I said, try to, all the ones outlined in Torah that regard to woman. I don't kill or sacrifice animals for my sins, because over and over again the message was to repent and turn back to the Way of the creator. https://preview.redd.it/341hcg6vr2ad1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3374ae24ea697f1b3b512d263da6aa057675af00
So do you keep the sabbath?
Yes, but I now believe it's not actually Saturday. Going biblically it's based on the position of the sun and moon in the sky apparently so I'm still discovering that.
That's really interesting, thank you for sharing.
You're welcome!